Ep. 72 Mark Baker - A Church Centered on Jesus

Tuesday. Previous guests on the show have included Michael frost, Drew Heon, and Daniel Ripley Burgess, you could go back, listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Mark Baker. Mark is professor of mission and theology at Fresno Pacific biblical. He previously was a missionary in Honduras for 10 years, his latest book centered set Church discipleship and community without judgmentalism is the topic of

our conversation today. Enjoy the conversation and discover how we can be a community oriented to and oriented around Jesus at the center. Here's Mark. Mark, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for hopping on.

mainstream evangelical. And then I'm in this situation of extreme poverty, and started asking lots of questions, and what is my faith have to do with this, and in a certain sense, you know, became maybe, I don't know disqualify me to start too hard, but to say, you know, sort of a shift away from my evangelistic kind of focus, and more into action of caring for people's

needs. But over time, in Honduras, what I found happening was, as I more and more encountered people and got into their lives and, and encountered ways that they were suffering under the weight of religious legalism, and the weight of a concept of God as an angry accusing figure, and then combined with that legalism, it

was toxic. And so over time, what I felt was that I'm still I mean, to this day active in, you know, in alleviating poverty, concerns about justice, but over time I became, what I most wanted to talk about was Jesus and invite people to meet Jesus, because I had a sense of Yeah, sure, their, their physical

situation matters. But you know, even if we fix their leafy, leaky roof, if they're living with this toxic theology, and under the weight of this religious legalism, I found myself more and more, yeah, back to an evangelistic focus, focus, focus, although, yeah, I would say with a with a fuller richer sense of why why I was doing

that. So So in that sense, experientially, in Honduras is very significant for my own personal develop meant but now an interesting thing for as far as centered said church and how even I start the book is I myself grew up in a pretty

legalistic setting. But I thought that I had left legalism behind Well, I did I, you know, sort of move the rules and even Yeah, when I'm Honduras, and what he's just all these people, you know, why they're talking about, you know, not going to movies and this kind of stuff. But, you know, my early years in Honduras, I was as judgmental or more so than I had been in my,

you know, legalistic years. So, and this I didn't see it at the time, but looking back, I came to realize, oh, yeah, I had just shifted, you know, one way of drawing On the line, and seeing myself as superior to others, which at my youth had been, you know, don't drink, smoke, dance, swear, etc. And now it had been, you know, are you helping the poor, or even argue legalistic, like, you know, I looked sort of judgmentally like these other these Honduran churches are so

legalistic. And then that is really what propelled me into the work on centered set Church, because I realized, in part through studying Galatians, with a with a church in Honduras, that we needed some some way of talking about this than that was broader than just legalism, because because there's this, this underlying judgmentalism, this underlying sense of superiority, and, and this still underlying weight of No, and I felt this myself, I was still trying so hard to be a good

Christian to measure up to my own new categories of whatnot meth. So that's some, some of the ways that yeah, my experience there was influential in play into this book.

the eagle. And if you just have one of those wings, you know, you're gonna fly in a circle, you're not actually going to move forward. And we need both right, we need to actually care for the poor, the marginalized, we need to help. And we need to bring them to an encounter with Jesus, so that they can move into a different realm and different possibility. And I think that's, you know, part of what you were able to find as your journey through Honduras.

Yes. You so if we're going back into central set Church, give us frame it for us. What does that look like? Paul Hubert talks a little bit about the centered set versus bounded set. And for you, so what are you trying to do in this book? And what are some of these definitions that you're starting with? So good frame our conversation?

myself. And if you if you remember, I said your I was drawing lines. And so a bounded set. And again, thank Joshua for giving credit to Paul Hiebert, because I'm borrowing this from him. And everyone else who talks about this is as well. So a bounded a bounded set. And we'll go right to churches. So a bounded church is one that draws a line a circle. And it defines who belongs by the People's orientation relationship with

that line. And so if you fulfill what the line is, so for me as a youth, it was, you know, this list of things not to do and to do. And then later it was, you know, I'm in churches that are you helping the poor, even and even as I said, Are you not legalistic size in a church in Honduras, that we were proudly not legalistic? But we had drawn a line, we were a circle. And so you use that circle to define who is in and who is out, and it lends itself to judge mentalism.

So that's, that's a bounded group, a line that defines who belongs. So in reaction to that. Some people appropriately say, you know, this, this judgmentalism is horrible, this horrible that shame that flows from this, we've got to get rid of it. So what do you do? Well, then erase the line. And then what you get is what Hiebert calls a fuzzy set or a fuzzy church. And it is, and I think it's important to view these things, you know, on a

continuum. So they're they're expressions of the same dynamic and one has the line the other doesn't. So a fuzzy church has no line that defines who belongs and so it takes care of the judgmentalism problem, but it brings in other issues. So then, it's hard to have a sense of identity because well, what are we and in essence, what you are is not bounded. And there's it's very hard to even talk about conversion because there's not like a definition of who we are this sense of crossing joining

in. And so Hiebert, thankfully offered a a third option, which is a totally different paradigms. So it's not on the continuum. It's a, it's a, it's a totally different way of answering the question, who belongs? Who's part of us? Who is a Christian in our midst? And this is a centered set. And so what it does, is it, it answers the question, not by drawing a line and saying, Are you on this side of the line or that side of the line, but by looking at someone's orientation towards

the center. So as Hubert says, someone could be very distant from the center and not look like you know, much of a Christian Hall, but they have turned, you know, they've repented there, they've literally they turn towards Jesus, the center, they're heading towards the center, and you say, okay, that's part of us, and those, but now, in contrast to a fuzzy group, a centered set Church has ways of defining who belongs and it has, it still has a sense of standards, convictions, beliefs.

And so what you're looking at are for people who are oriented towards the center. And as you see in the diagram, those are arrows going towards the center. And the people that whose arrows are not going toward the center are not part of the group, they're oriented towards something else, their life focus

is on something else. So bounded and fuzzy, two extremes of the same continuum, and then centered said, a fully different way of defining who belongs to the group, by direction by orientation, rather than being on one side of a line or another.

as a whole. As I hear you define some like a fuzzy church, it seems like our culture is moving towards not just bounded, a bounded set, we're actually a fuzzy culture we're looking to, we don't really know how to define ourselves anymore. We basically define ourselves however we want to, and there's not really an in group or an out group or there's not really a center. Have you seen the correlation between the two? Yes.

problem of bounded churches. And so for years, all I talked about was bounded and centered. But over time, I noticed in my, in my students here at the seminary, where I teach President Pacific biblical seminary, that I was encountering more and more fuzziness, although, I mean, I wasn't using the term but, you know, a stronger sense of relativism that they were bringing with them from society and no hesitancy to Yeah, to say to someone else, like, oh,

that's off base. And so then I started talking about fuzzy in class, and it's actually been very helpful, both because more and more students are now saying to me, oh, yeah, you know, actually, I'm recognizing our church has been coming becoming increasingly fuzzy. And also it helps, because then I think there were people that, that were nervous about leaving the, you know, yeah, a bounded group has a sense of seriousness about it. Like we take belief seriously, we take ethics

seriously. And so they want to be talked about centered, people would get nervous because they don't want to, they felt like they were letting go something serious. But what I observed now is when I talk about bounded and then fuzzy, and people recognize, oh, yeah, he doesn't like fuzzy, which, which I don't, then when I talk about centered, then together we can say yeah, the problem is fuzziness. Like we're both don't want to be fuzzy, but centered,

is not fuzzy. So, yeah, I think it's very helpful and important societally, today to talk about fuzzy.

is our center. But then after that, how to define you know, I think it's going to be very different, depending on your tradition, your church, whether you're, you know, an independent church, you're part of a denomination, denomination that's, you know, fairly structured like Presbyterian, or, you know, less structured Baptist or something. So, I don't, yeah, I actually don't give direction on how in your individual setting to define a

center. But acknowledge, it's very important, and it's going to be different, and it will be more than Jesus. Right. I mean, that's the thing. So I can say, we do this corporately. But um, yeah, I mean, like, in the book, I say, for for one, for some churches, you know, infant baptism is part of their center and for others, adult baptism is and, and so it's important for you as a church to define what

that is why that is. And I think both can be centered, I'm not the one to tell you, Oh, it needs to be this or the other.

are going to feel it. And in the same way, a centered church, I mean, hopefully, they would say the same thing. Let's work at being welcoming, but the paradigm itself will change your stance towards outsiders. And here's a key thing that I think listeners could feel is in a, in a bounded church, where's my security, my security is in the line. That's what is defining me as being a good Christian, that's what make defines me as

being part of this group. And so there is a natural tendency to guard the line to protect the line and and, and those of us who have been in bounded churches, you know, I'm sure as you're listening to you can identify with this, this sense of even you know, talking about someone does something, you know, believe something wrong, does something wrong, and there's this sense of, Well, we need to do something, and part of the reason we're doing something is because we have to

keep this standard, we have to, you know, take this seriously. Okay. And that, then that's what I think people pick up on is this line, that they feel it in us, whereas in a centered church, where's my security? My security is in the center. And that's not just that's not just you know, that's not just a Christian statement. My center is Jesus, which about a church can say that as well. But if you're in a center dynamic, your security literally is in the center. That's what the church

is focused on. And that's how it's defining who we are is by looking at orientation. So what that means is that when I'm when I'm meeting with people on the outside, I'm not as nervous, I'm not as uptight about these boundary line issues, because I can we as a group, we can deal with having some people amongst us that are a bit messy, because it doesn't affect my reputation, my security because my security

is in the center. So I think the dynamics themself leave to A, the dynamic of a centered church leads to having a more relaxed, less judgmental stance towards outsiders, even if you're not, you know, sort of talking strategizing about anything that the dynamic itself will help in that direction.

God is. Let's come to Jesus and let Jesus shape the way we view God. So in a similar way, I think in uncentered, church, it is, yeah, we're bringing people to Jesus, not just do these few things to get across the line, right.

do about church membership? Or, you know, there's this person in my church is doing this, how do I deal with it in a centered way, and there was no resource I could point them to. So what I did was I went out and interviewed over 40, people who, in various churches that were working at living out this centered approach. And so you know, about half, maybe more, two thirds of the book is how to

live this out. So some things, I have a note here, too, you know, I sort of thought that I would go out and sort of get case studies and then have, okay, this is the centered way to do membership. And this is a centered way to deal with, you know, a couple who aren't married living together. And this is the centered way to deal with someone who's, you know, talking about some doctrinal belief that's not in line with

yours. But what I quickly found was, there's not a centered way of doing things, because I would hear stories from leaders talking about the same situation. And they did they approach it differently. They did, they did it differently. So and I have lots of examples in the book. So you know, there are examples of people, you know, the Avid chapter or section or chapter on church membership. And I have, you know, examples from three different churches of

how they do it. So the examples are in there, but what I found was its character and characteristics. So which there's a chapter I talk about the qualities of Jesus. So what I found was churches that were centered. They're working with, you know, compassion, curiosity. So you know, something is wrong in someone's life. They're off in a bounded group. It's just hey, you're on the wrong side of

the line. We got to do something, but in a centered, then they're asking they're asking the why questions like what's going on? So not just oh, we see this but well, Why what's going on? Let's dig deeper. And then creativity. How do we respond to this situation? What's the most loving way for the person for the community? How do we orient them towards

the center? Creating a context, an environment of safety so that people feel they can talk about their things and trust in humility, trust in God, that the God will work in in people's lives? So I'm not sure even I don't remember exactly the question. So react?

set 123 way. And I think it's the same thing where you know, the set 123 way is like, here's the line, we don't want to, you could be in or out, right? So these characteristics are really important. And I think part of curiosity, what that does is that I think it helps people feel like they're not judged. Right? When I you know, for example, if I was, I'm in a

discipleship group. So I remember when I was in a senior in high school, I was in a discipleship group, you know, there was, you know, three other guys, and we had a mentor, and I confessed my sin, you know, I was doing something I shouldn't be doing as students something wrong. And I didn't get any curiosity. I didn't get any questions of why. All I got was a look like, you're not in the

group right now. Like you are not in our line, like, you need to go back and cross this line, or else we don't want to be around you. And it actually disempowered me from being a part of that community. I didn't want to be a part of that community anymore. Because I felt like I was shunned. And I was shamed into something instead of being asked, Why, what's why did that happen? And then that actually couldn't reorient me to the center. But it didn't happen that way.

that are shameful. So even going back to your story, it's not to say, oh, what you did? No, there's no shame in that. It. It very well may have been something that is shameful. But then there's two ways or two general ways of responding to a shameful thing. So things are shameful. But is is the intent of the community to restore the person or is it to use that shun or you know, to in some way label them to Yeah, to put the focus on they have become bad

damaged excetera. And so I think very clearly, Jesus practiced re in reintegrated shaming. And I think this in both both ways, and so you think there were times and yeah, it's it could sound harsh if you just think shaming is always bad, but Jesus at timed, shamed people. I mean, I think of, you know, when when Jesus was in the house of Simon the Pharisee, he said, you know, since the time I came in, you did not know, since I came, you did not wash my feet, you did

not greet me with the kiss. But since the time I've come in this woman has been bathing my feet, she has done this. I mean, that is a shaming move towards Simon. So there are times when when Jesus actively shamed and then but it's really integrative. He didn't then I mean, he could have gotten on much worse and said, well, in house, someone like you in this town, even

doing this kind of thing. This is, I'm out of here, you know, so he is seeking to bring Simon in, but then also reintegrated shaming Jesus repeatedly is with people who have done shameful things, even in that moment with this woman who's crying at his feet. But what's he do is he seeks to restore them, bring them back into the community tax collectors and centers. As he I have in the in the book, actually, in both books, the honor shame book and centered set Church, I work with Luke 15.

And the you know, the father in the parable, the prodigal son, as an example of this, as Bree integrating this, the intention is to bring both sons back into relationship. So, and I think, you know, in in Galatians, two, I mean, six one, Paul says, you know, those of you are spiritual, you know, so to confront the sin, but to restore to bring them in with kindness with gentleness. And again, I think that is much more possible

in a centered church. Because there is the emotional space for us to say to the Yeah, the teenage Joshua, to say, Okay, what's going on? Why is this because we don't have to immediately get oh, no, what about our line? So?

shame. And so in that sense, I think a, it is of much greater importance than an honor shame culture to be talking about the gospel in terms of shame, but I think, an honor, but I think anywhere, to preach sermons that are to do Bible studies, pastoral counseling, that is shame releasing is a positive thing and and should be part of

a centered church. A significant difference between shame issues in a guilt innocent culture and an honor, shame culture, is that in an honor, shame context, it's much more it's much it's more strongly a collective sense. It's our shame. So it's not so for me individualistic, like it's about me, what are people going to think of me? But you know, in an honor, shame, content and honor shame culture, it'd be much more likely what are people going to think of my family, my tribe, you know, my

country. So that corporate thing, so Okay, so now to an honor to centered set church then I think in the honor shame context it it is you got very much overlapping. And then in, you know whether you're bounded or centered, if you're in an honor shame context, it's about, you know, the group definition. But what? So and that's where I think it's very important, like

group identity is important. So we're not, we're not saying, Oh, this whole thing of, you know, this group being so, so intense about who's in and who's out and who they are. No, we just want to give them different tools, ways of thinking about that, which has space for, as I said, before, a bit more. messiness. So I think, in the guilt innocence, individually centered set Church is very important, because it enables dealing with

shame in a less toxic way. And I think in an honor, shame, culture centered set is very important for that reason, but also for, for enabling a community, a group, to be able to still have standards of what's honorable, but to do it in a less yet in a less toxic, judgmental, or yet disintegrative shaming kind of way, but I don't know, what do you think you have more experience than I do.

shame the organization. So if somebody does something that is shameful, that needs to be reoriented towards the center, some of it, they're going to, if they're an honor, shame, they're going to say, I am going to protect the image of the organization at all costs. And so we actually don't want to talk about the shame, we don't want to talk about how we were going to reorient somebody, sometimes we even want to just cut off the shame and let them go, and so that we could protect

this organization. I think if if an organization wants to be healthier and be centered on Jesus, there has to be some some talk. So I may be coming from a a Western worldview, guilt innocence, that we need to actually talk about the shame so that we as a community and organization can move forward towards the center ourselves. And if we don't talk about it, we may be we may be fuzzy. We may not know how to get back to the center, and we may veer off course for a long time.

circumcision. It's this. No, it's, you know, tithes and offerings. But what he gets at is, this is not who we are in Jesus. It's not I mean, this is my language, but it's not this in out game. So what becomes honorable? So yeah, the other the other leaders, they're still I mean, they're in an honor, shame context. And they're what I would say working with a bounded paradigm. Yeah. And so their definition of what's honorable is doing these

appropriate behaviors. Now, Paul isn't necessarily even against those behaviors, but what he's against is using those behaviors to judge others. So I think in an honors in people from honor shame contexts, we need to be in a centered set Church we need to be working at redefining what is honorable and part of what is honorable is not playing, you know, one upmanship games, not not being not viewing ourselves as competitive but recognizing in Jesus through Jesus in God's

family. That's what brings us together? Because Because yeah, because that sense of the the in mountainous and define in the lines and definitions, our group is a very, very strong thing. So I think it's true. A challenge to that we can we can have our security something else and we are called to live in a countercultural way.

you have to be bounded. And so common examples they would say, was in, you'd like maybe in children's ministry, or because of their, you know, stages of learning, or, you know, recovery ministry, like with addiction, you just have to be bounded with people. So I knew in my book, if I was going to have a compelling argument, I needed to have a centered example of recovery

ministry. So I found someone here in Fresno through through a former student who was involved in recovery ministry, and was passionate about centered approach. And so what I want you to feel here is how I'm on entering into this discussion. So I'm entering in, I'm needing to show that centered works as well as bounded in recovery, you know, addiction kind of ministry. So that's what I'm

thinking. So I sit down with it with the, with the interviewer, hoping for that, like, I need something to show that this works as well. And yeah, and this is in the book, Dave OB wall, and he starts talking to me, and he is so passionate about the Senate approach, that it is not at all that oh, yeah, Mark, I can show you how it's as good. He starts talking about I did it in a bounded way. And now, the centered way is so much better. And so I was surprised,

right? And I, you know, I'm the the center set advocate, you know, and but here's this guy that is showing me is is, you know, going beyond my expectations, not just if it's good, like this is much better. So that was a moment of surprise. And then I think, yeah, not shocking surprise. But but the what I already mentioned that sense of oh, there is great diversity and ways of doing

things in a centered way. Yeah, that was, that was a bit of reorientation, for me in doing the book, then I would just say, you know, lots of little surprises just in listening to people's stories that were very encouraging.

give shared language. And that's part of why not part of that is the reason in addition to writing the book, I made a series of 515 minute videos, because I'm recognizing, of course, I'd love everyone to read the book, but not everyone's going to read the

book. Right? So if you're in a small group at church, some ministry Yeah, the people, your people that aren't going to read the book or don't want to read the book, then you could use these videos as a way of bringing people along and the basics and they're on again, centered set church.com. So that's one thing I'd say. I would highlight the importance of shared language share these conceptions so you can refer to

it. Secondly, I think a very key significant thing is going back to your Your your early question the center is the God of the center. So you could use lots of, you know, techniques, examples, ways of dealing things from the book. But if, if people's concept of God is a, you know, an accusing judgmental finger pointing figure, you're not going to be a centered church. Yeah. Because it to use it in this terminology, if the God of the center is a bounded church, God, you're gonna have a

bounded church. So, and that's why I mean, in the book, you have a chapter on the God of the center, because I think it's very key to not just put up the diagrams and talk about these things, but work at making sure that the God revealed by Jesus Christ is the God that people in the community have in mind, for this centered approach to work. So those are, I would say, would be two foundational things. And then yeah, maybe one other thing that comes to mind is to, to be

in conversation with others. As you do things, so and this impressed me in talking to people, I did interviews, they would say, you know, they would hit a situation and rather it's, you know, dealing with debates in the church about worship, or dealing with, you know, here's a person who has sinned. You know, or how are we gonna handle this to, to stop and say, Okay, how do we do this in a centered way? Yeah. So not just say, Okay, let's be centered and go work on

it. But regularly, continually be in conversation with others and asking with intentionality, how do we do this in a centered way, I think that will help a lot. And something else just came to mind, I think it's very important to recognize our strong bounded tendencies and therefore to be have a spirit of humility and confession. And yeah, be aware of confess sensitive to your bounded ways, my bounded ways, which will come up.

start with that. But yeah, I think mostly it would be this compassionate sense of Oh, Mark, you know, you, you are so passionate about these things, and appropriately so. But I would I would want to give that Mark. Yeah, a bit more. You know, relax. It's not all on your shoulders. And, yeah, Jesus loves you, and relax in that love of Jesus. So I think that would be maybe the second thing I'd say. And yeah, I would try to I would read this bookmark.

Church like you need it. So it'd be good for you and others. Yeah, that's,

church respond? So there's interesting, thinking about at the moment,

to get there? So thank you, Mark. It was really, really good.