Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, go to shifting culture podcast.com To interact or donate. If you're enjoying the show, please go to Apple podcasts and leave a rating or review and share it with your network. It would really help us get more listeners. So thank you very much. Previous guests on the show have included Curtis Sargent, Eric fish and cerebral.
You could go back and listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Steve Addison. Steve is a catalyst for movements that multiply disciples and churches everywhere. He is an author, a speaker, a podcaster and mentor to movement pioneers. We had a really fantastic conversation around movements disciplemaking identity and calling and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. So enjoy the episode. This episode is brought to you by all
nations Kansas City. Have you ever felt holy discontent that 1/3 of the world doesn't know Jesus that the church has we know it won't reach all peoples on earth, and that is hard to find ways to use your gifts for the kingdom of God. While you're not alone? We feel it too. With 30 years of experience igniting movements that Jesus around the world committed to following the lead of the Holy Spirit. All nations has gifted trainers and coaches with time in the trenches. Do you want to make
disciples in hard places? Do you want to join a like minded community? Are you tired of compromising for the status quo, then join us on the leading edge. Go to all nations.us. To learn more. And to sign up for summer CX CX or church planting experience is a three week immersion in Kansas City that will equip you to ignite church planting movements among the neglected peoples of the earth.
Join us June 5 through the 25th This podcast is done in association with the MX platform, and 100 m publishing. The MX platform is a space for any disciple to be resourced and equipped to release movement within your context. So whether you lead your family a small group or micro church, where you're a planter or pastor, you could find tools, resources and training to help release potential within yourself and
context. 100 m publishing publishes books by authors and thought leaders with new insight about movement, DNA, discipleship, leadership and movement dynamics. To learn more about these books, and to check out the resources and training available, visit the MX platform.com. Our guests in today's episode, Steve Addison has two books published by 100 M publishing the rise and fall of movements and your part in God's story. So check those out as
well. Now onto the show. Well, Steve, welcome to the podcast. I'm really excited to have you.
Thanks, Joshua. It's good to be with you.
Yeah, that's great. I'd love to, to really know your story of your fascination with movements and how did that get started in your life? And how did you start to delve into movement thinking and dynamics. So
it all began in my garage back in I think it was 1988. And I was Michelle and I were planting a church We're in our second year. And it was going far better than we ever hoped or dreamed in terms of growth and impact and and then into that situation the second year we had a big church fight. I don't think you have those in America but so
now we don't have any church might sit all right and
not have them. And, and God use that to wrap for me and rattle my view of my own competence as a church planter and leader and really work rework my heart in trying to sort this mess out that we've created. And in the midst of, you know, extended times of just seeking God early in the morning in the garage, while I stoked up a little woodburner the Lord just spoke into my heart so clearly Steve, it's not just about one new church, it's about a whole new generation of
churches. And that began my journey in not just as a practitioner but also as a reflective practitioners in the scriptures and church history in the light to try and understand you know, the dynamics of movements that multiply disciples and churches.
That's great. So as your your walk through that and started to be Your practitioner in it. And then you started to reflect on what does it look like? What are some of the the common themes that you found in movement that really catalyzed movement?
Okay, well, there's some surprising ones, you know, we can give you some kind of written books on the characteristics of dynamic movements and the lifecycle of movements. But, you know, after about 30 years of reading, writing, reflecting, acting, I've really kept on this whole story, believe it or not Jesus as a movement, pioneer, between his private life in Nazareth, and the launch of the movement, you know, as he steps into Galilee, and the power of the
Holy Spirit. And the two stories there, his baptism, and he's wilderness testing, and realizing this something at the very heart of before we get to strategies and characteristics and all what's going on here, you know, and I just sort of concluded and reflect on my own experience, the father is bringing Jesus that point of surrender and obedience to the Father's living word. Yeah, that's happening, you know, as he speaks at the baptism in the
wilderness temptations. He's Jesus is going deep in his dependence upon the Holy Spirit, He doesn't even get born without the Holy Spirit. Spirit comes upon him, at His baptism of spirit cast him into the wilderness, he returns to Galilee, in the power of the
Holy Spirit. And then finally, it's the core missionary task, you know, at the very center of the meaning of Jesus, baptism is his commitment to go to the cross, to carry to bear our sins, to experience God's judgment against evil, and to call people to repentance and
faith. And this is it, you know, the enemy is trying to distract him from those things, you know, make it about the bread, Jesus, you know, if you can give people bread, they'll follow you make it about the power encounters and miracles, you know, now, he loves feeding people, and he loves doing miracles. But the enemy's twisting this to get it
away from the core mission. And then finally, you know, go after political and cultural power bow down to me, and you can rule you know, the kingdom will come through restructuring of society, all of these things. And Jesus says, now I've got an alternative, I'm going to the cross for the sins of the world.
Wow. And I realized in though that time of, you know, there was a real powerful call, Michelle and I out of that church plant about a year or two later, into Now the job is, is to feel movements, we sort of had our, you know, God spoke, we heard and we went out compelled
by the Spirit. And I forgot about, you know, after the mountaintop comes to testing, and we had a couple of tough years, you know, of, and especially for me my identity in the calling, with God's refining that he's teaching me about His Word, His Spirit, that call missionary task is writing that on my heart. That was the big surprise, looking back over the 30 years or so, the degree to which God is shaping the practitioner in her in their
identity. Yeah. And then out of that flows, strategy, Jesus had strategies, you know, he raised up pioneering leaders, he connected with people far from God, you know, everything was reproducible, and transferable, all of those practical things, but they flowed from his identity, the word spirit call missionary task. So that's why we can talk more about the strategy stuff and the characteristics but I, I'm more and more I'm camping there.
Yeah. And the last thing I'll say about that, is, you don't just get that in the prayer retreat, or even in the you know, the tough experience. You also get that as you go, yeah. The when he calls, and this is how Jesus trains leaders, you know, just to requirements, guys, like Come follow me, and I'll teach you how to fish for people how to make disciples. And you said, Well, why didn't we get all that inner stuff sorted first before you know you
sent them out or before? Well, often the to you the There's deeper things in us occur as we're pursuing movements. They, it's not just a chronological thing, you know, stop here, you know, just pray and fast and you'll be holy. And then the breakthroughs will No, no, just
start go to church, Steve. And then I'm going to come in, I'm going to drill down, not just here, but for the next couple of years, I'm drilling down while you're a builder's laborer a while while you keep having children while you have no money. Trust me day by day, yeah, I lean down. And that prepares for the next breakthrough in terms of implementing the strategies.
Yeah. I mean, I have been really working through this identity, issue as well of like, this is the core thing this is it is your identity and your calling. And that is, you know, back to who you are in Christ that we are, were beloved children of God, right that the father said to Jesus, this is my son in whom I am well pleased, he knew that. And he was then able to go into the the desert
in the wilderness. And I have found, you know, in ministry, when people aren't secure in their identity, and in their calling, they won, they focus too much on all the frills and the the extras of movement that are exciting. And when things get difficult, they just decide to bow out. And they're, they're done, you know. And so to actually go the long haul, and to be really incarnational with people and then walk through and catalyze movement, that identity
and calling is crucial. It's yeah, 100% crucial, and we need it.
Yeah. And that's the foundation to do all the very good work in terms of Beck's best practice strategies. And it's, it's, if you can imagine, you know, because at times I said, Lord, you know, we've been around this mountain, like, I've surrendered, okay. But he's going to drill it a bit deeper. But then there are other times where that's not so much the issue, even though it's the most important thing. There are other times where we just got our our sleeves rolled up, and
we're working it out. Yeah. And, and so and you see this pattern in Peter, for instance, you know, got a good case study. And Peter, because we've seen from the beginning, you know, right through to his epistles, we get a sense of, you know, even after he's trained by Jesus, he knows his identity. The Spirit comes upon him at Pentecost, he preaches that incredible message. He is the leader, leading founding leader of the first church in Jerusalem, you know, the parent of all the
other churches. But he's still clueless. At Cornelius his house. Yeah. Until and so the Lord's just saying, well, at least you're on the road, Peter. You're not just in your pastor's office. The global senior pastor. Exactly, yeah, you're on the road. And there he is in in Joppa. And the Lord's This is not the Gentile mission is not Peters idea. You know, this is there's a crisis encounter. And, and a fraying of Peter to finally he sees it. And this is 10 years after Great Commission
and Pentecost. So we should continually expect the Lord to be working on the identity side. But also there's going to be some blockages in the strategy site. Why isn't why aren't we seeing the breakthroughs? Yeah, what is it? We're missing Lord?
Yeah. And I think that that importance is in Peter to misses it. But the importance of Peter there is rooftop experience is I want to hear from you, Lord. So he's hearing God's voice and he's acting upon it. You know, Paul, remember, I finally
can use people. Yeah. And then Paul, no, I know. He says,
Yeah. So as we're walking through what is that importance of hearing, hearing God's voice following the lead of the Holy Spirit within movements that is it just a let's implement these these strategies? Or what is that the role of God's voice in the leading the Holy Spirit in the midst of it?
Well, I think the first thing is if you want to be growing in your intimacy with God, your discipleship, you better be obeying what you already Understand? Yeah. So, like, Peter, come find me. I'll teach you how to fish. Let's go do something, and you're a mess. That's right, we'll sort that out on the way. So you better be engaged. Yeah. The other thing is you better be you better allow the living Word of God the scriptures to so form you, you know, I'm back in the prophets
at the moment. And, and you see how much of what Jesus said and did wood grounded in the scriptures? Yeah, he lived them out. And so even there are all these echoes throughout what he says, or direct quotations. So if you want to hear from the Spirit, you better be in the word that the spirit in spot. And it's as people are engaged in the mission open to God's shaping deep in the scriptures, you step out into situations or you allow God to show up in
situations. There's a false understanding of the Spirit's voice that's devoid of the scriptures, and devoid of the core missionary task. And so it's a divine dictation thing, which may or may not be right on. I'll give you an example. Hello, long does it take between when the spirit comes in power and the gospel hits the streets at Pentecost? What do you reckon?
Well, it doesn't seem that long.
It's No, we just need to Campion 24/7 prayer and worship that people will come from around the world and will have these great experiences. And, you know, Jesus returns to the gallery in the power of the Spirit, and he starts proclaiming the gospel and casting out demons. And there's, so we've got to make sure if we're, if we're expecting the Spirit to guide, and yet our whole experience is about let's lock it away in the sanctuary. Yeah. Let's have another experience with God. Well, Jesus
rolls his sleeves up. And so let's, let's, let's go, you know, we will retreat for prayer. But it's, we're in a war we're in about. So you've got to hold these three things that are really one thing, the Living Word, the Holy Spirit, the call missionary task, and they're talking to one another. Whereas for some people just being you know, I'll just pray and now I should talk to the lady. And this happens. It's happened to me, you know, there's the lady in the brown coat, and you
sharing the gospel. It's incredible. I had a friend, he sort of had a dream. The next day he meets the guy leads him to the Lord. And I said, Ron, what happened next? What do you mean? What's the discipleship plan? Well, I got laid off. My job was just Well, no, that's, that's not how it happens. You got to baptize the guy. And you got to teach him to follow everything that Jesus commanded. So how is he going to be in discipleship if you walk away? And said that, but the Spirit
lead? Yes, he did. But the Spirit speaks through the word. Yeah. And your job's not done just because someone prays a prayer. So
it's good. I've seen that so many times, as you know, evangelist go out and saying that my job is only just to proclaim the Word, and then I leave. And then on the back end, talking about discipleship, like, where are they plugged in? How can they grow as followers of Jesus? You know, I think that's one of the reasons why we need each other and we need community as we go out. And it's not just an individual task,
right? It's a, a task for the body of Christ says we're, were embodying Jesus to the world.
Every disciple is called to make disciples. Yep. And the role of the evangelists will get some of the rest of us out there. Teachers show us because, you know, the gifts are given to equip the body for the ministry. So we can't just say, Well, my might know, my job's evangelism. I don't make the so everybody's called to make
disciples. And so, you know, as far as Luke's concerned, you don't count them if, if, if, if they haven't repented and believe they're baptized and they're in some sort of discipleship community, learning to follow and obey. Remember, it's follow me. I'll teach you how to fish and that promise Is to every disciple of Jesus will teach us how to fish. You say, Well, that's the gift of evangelists. No, no. evangelists are some of the worst disciple
makers. You know, they're there to help us get into the field to model how it's done to help us overcome our fears. But those evangelists if they want lasting impact, they got to learn. How do I build a team? How do I train believers so that this becomes a disciple making movement? Yeah. Got it. Latino guys, Argentine, Augie Martin. And, you know, over a number of years, he shifted from evangelist to an apostolic ministry of mobilizing and
multiplying churches. And the key in the transition was when a brother, Troy Cooper sat him down and said, Well, how many can you lead to the Lord? You know, we call him Auggie in any year, and all you could probably lead 1000 people thought, well, how big is the vision? Well, it's a billion Latinos. Okay, how's this going? And he was devastated to realize that he could lead 1000 people to the Lord in a year and, and still
not get the job done. And that's when he learned how to leverage that evangelist gift and add to it training and multiplying disciples. So
then how is as we're discipling people, and we want to see something multiply? What are some good steps to be able to disciple through other people so that they can start to disciple others as well?
Well, it's just what we see Jesus doing, come follow me, and I'll teach you how to fish. And so that following part, they're not following us. We're teaching them through discovering the scriptures to follow and obey the Lord Jesus. We're not even teaching them to make disciples or fish. We're we're taking them into those environments, in their relationships, or with people they haven't met before,
doing what Jesus did. Because, you know, I'm, I am a very reluctant evangelist, my favorite place in the world is a library. So, but this is what changed me. You get into the harvest, or you take a new disciple into their harvest, or you help them share with their friends and family. And they will meet Jesus said, because that's the promise as you go, making disciples of the nation's I'll be with you. Yeah. And it's encountering seeing what Jesus does even through, you know, our
trepidation. And now, I don't know what to say, and all of that, but he shows up, and there's, you know, there's nothing that you can train people you can model but what really gets him there is that encounter of the living Lord amongst lost people, you know, his compassion? Yeah. You know, I'm thinking of an example. You know, the great disciple maker, Dawn, way bright. He's, he's part of reach the rest to mission agency. He has a number of fields he works in one is his
Texas prison system. Yeah. You know, so he's saying to me one night, Steven, go, I've got a bunch of murderers. They Well, the great thing is, you know, they got 25 years or more. You got to continue this ministry in the prison. It's all led by new believers. Yeah. You know, the discovery groups, the baptisms you've got, you know, you've got African Americans baptizing converted white Aryan Nation, guys. Wow. That's beautiful. And, you know, you've got guys solitary confinement, well, how
do they hear it? Well, they've all got they're all in their cells that night, but they can yell out. And by when there's a believer there, they're yelling out at night, and men are turning to the Lord. And so you've got to immediately someone comes to Christ. You have to teach them to be in the scriptures, learning to follow Jesus, and allowing him to teach them to fish for others. That's what it means to be a disciple.
Yeah, and as beautiful as it sounds like, you know, as Jesus was taking his disciples, a lot of that discipleship and the learning to fish for men happened along the way on the journey as they're walking together. It wasn't saying, Hey, let's go have this I still hold training off to the sides and have this training weekend so that you could be
able to do it. It's on the journey on the roads with what they're doing, it seems to me like, you know, when Paul in Second Timothy two, two, and Paul tells Timothy, the things you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses, trusted, reliable, people also be able to teach others. He's saying, hey, everything that you have heard me say, when you are with me in ministry is we're walking together the last two years as I've been doing this,
now then pass it along. He's been he's been discipling and training and coaching this whole time with Timothy. How can we we get to that place? I think, I mean, I'm now in this I was in the Middle East, I had a lot of time we had time was on our side, right, I worked with a refugee population, Syrian refugees, that we had plenty of time to sit in living rooms and do ministry along the way. I now live in the West. And in this western context, people are always say, I don't have enough
time. We aren't prioritizing actually doing life. Together, walking along the way and and discipling in context, we are relegating it to, you know, training sessions, on the weekends, and not ministry, in our everyday life. How can we reorient ourselves, that we can be along the way type of people,
I think start small. You know, there's, there's some great training out there from the different streams of people engaged in disciple making movements. So just start with a very simple approach, whether they're a believer or not yet, believe it just start doing this stuff. And, you know, can be my first sort of group like that there were just three of us. And so start somewhere. I often say to pastors, you know,
what? They say, Well, I'm just so busy, etc, etc, I said, well have Have you got an hour and a half. So what could you cancel in your week, to commit, you know, an hour and a half, to be with people far from God, sharing the gospel, making disciples, start with your family, network, your neighborhood, or see if God would lead you too. You know, some rich people in your vicinity, Take someone with you
just start doing it. Now, what I don't tell them is as they persist, and God works in them, that'll raise big questions about what they're going to do with the rest of their life. Not for everyone, but for some, but let it be off the back of what they're seeing God doing. And as they're taking steps of obedience, and they're reflecting on the word and they're seeing the Spirit at
work. Okay, how do I build off this, rather than I've got to restructure my church and all of all of my life, you know, just, you know, for me for many years, that was get involved in my wife's English conversation classes locally here. Now. You do that for an hour and a half, all of a sudden, you know, somebody's eyes are popping, because you're, we did some discovery with those folks. And, and you're putting in, I'm gonna follow up, I'm having coffee, we're gonna go visit that
couple. And it's not that We've restructured our lives. It's just God's at work. So let's start following that. But get some essential training from you know, you've probably got training that from time to time, I recommend people get us a partner in this or a small group and start doing something and carve off a slice of your life. You know, that's sustainable and realistic, but then see what God does.
Yeah, that's good. My wife often says that the first time that she really found God's heart for missions that he was a missionary God that it was a it was a time of repentance for her. That was one of her, her repentance moments that she was able to change her mind and go a different direction and go down this missionary road because she said, Oh, I want to be a part of what God is doing on the earth.
And that's what one of the things that I love about the journey you take people on and your book, your part, and God's story is you're actually taking people into this, this metanoia moment that you're at See turning people's minds to the fact that they have a part to play that there is something tangible that they could get a hold of, and that they could it propels them into to mission. And I love that aspect of that.
What What brought you to that, that journey to help mobilize people into mission through this repentant process?
Well, it was one of those aha moments that I don't know if you ever have them. But I think did the Holy Spirit change the scriptures overnight? Did he add that verse? Before these last 50 years? And the aha moment was Jesus risen from the dead, Motley bunch of failures in front of it? And what does he do? He's the risen Lord, you know, we just want to hear you speak Jesus. And he says, not let's get out our Old Testaments, the Torah, and the
Psalms and the Prophets. And I'm going to take you from, you know, Genesis to Melaka. And I'm going to show you the significance of, you know, my, my suffering and my resurrection, and the foundation for the core missionary task. That's what he does in Luke 24. So it's there in the whole sweep of Scripture, except now we can go all the way to Revelation. And this is the foundation in the Scriptures that Jesus lays to prepare them for the coming of the Holy Spirit, and the
launch into a world mission. And so what if this was a good idea for the first disciples maybe would help me? And I just started working through the scriptures. And out of that I wrote, your parting God's story that we and we go from Genesis to Revelation, just choosing
dropping as Jesus did. I'm not saying he wrote the book, dropping in on key passages and texts, key story, some of the Psalms and the like, all the way through in Revelation, just a discovery in those passages, and then a reflection of what's this saying to me about who God is, and my part in his story?
Yeah, you know what it reminds me of, I hope you find this this is a big compliment, but the Jesus storybook Bible, because after every story, in the Jesus storybook Bible, it points to Jesus, there's Jesus is coming in, it says, but the story is not over yet, there's something else. And then you know, you have your little phrases at the end of every one of your chapters that there is, you know, something to be engaged
in. And so I love that, you know, my I have some friends who really were discipled, through, you know, a dinner table, around the dinner table, reading the Jesus story, book, Bible fly, McClung brought it out, and discipled our friends through it. And that's actually how they got launched into a life of missions work. And it's just discovering Jesus in simple ways and stories and knowing that, hey, he's calling these people, he's also calling you, you have a part to play in it. That's beautiful.
Yeah, and it's a shift from this idea that it's all about me. And Jesus is my tool to fulfill my dreams and visions. And he's like, if I could just, if I could just get Jesus to support I want to do. And it's a wonderful way to let God erode that. And we become captivated with him and his purposes, right throughout the whole story of Scripture, culminating in the Lord Jesus and ultimately, in his, his return. And you think, wow, you know, in one sense, it's very humbling to realize it's not my
story. Yeah, it's his. And then another. And another part, it's, it's very exciting because he's called me to play a part in his story. So that that becomes central, and great if you can do it. With some others. You know, there's some discussion questions and ways you can do
that. But I'd say anybody who's got a heart for disciple making movements, church planting movements, if you want to be in this the whole rest of your life and sustain this, you've got to allow Jesus to take you from Genesis to Revelation, understand the foundation, hear both head and heart as as you're engaged, because sooner or later if it's just resting on you Your battery your determination is not enough.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good.
But the resources are there in God's word. That's right. We'll make it a life.
You know. And we also, you know, especially with disciple making movements, church planting movements, where we, I think there's a lot of people that like to be involved in this, as I know, I'm a futuristic thinker, right? I like to think about what's next, and where are we headed? And how can we grow and innovate and
move forward. But I think a lot of that innovation and growth is going to happen when we actually go back to our foundations, and are rooted back in, you know, the early church and what we we saw happen there and what Jesus and the Holy Spirit was doing back then, as you've been walking through the book of Acts, what have you been seen as foundational for us moving forward?
Well, certainly, I could go back over what we're taught in terms of Jesus identity, work spirit call missionary tasks. And he revisits all of that in chapter one. Laying the fact that just let me remind you guys, what the mission is this gospel, you know, for repentance and forgiveness. And since it's going to the ends of the earth, the spirits coming to empower you the whole that every disciple to be to be a witness.
So, you know, find your foundations, you know, what's the fruit of this great work of the Spirit, and, and the proclamation of the gospel and acts to now it's right there. This is this is community. It's not just individual salvations, they're baptized into the body of Christ, and churches are formed. You know, there's one church in Jerusalem, and there were probably hundreds of churches in Jerusalem, because they couldn't always meet in the temple unless they wanted it and
ended up in jail. So they're meeting house to house being the church. But it doesn't just lead to 3000 disciples, it leads to literally hundreds and ultimately 1000s, of communities of disciples. And, you know, so getting the mission Westerners have for 100 years have been debating what our mission is, and they still don't know. We still don't know it, right there and confused, vague and abstract. And Jesus makes it
really concrete. If you read one, and to jump over that, x 13 and 14, it's bracketed appeared, the Holy Spirit calls Paul and Barnabas sets him apart for the work. Yeah, what's the work? What's the mission? Well, 13 and 14, explain what the work is. And then the other bookend is at the end of 14, it says, when they had completed the work, well, what did they do? 13 and 14. read those chapters. That's our mission. They ended unreached communities, they
proclaim the gospel. They made disciples, they formed disciples into new churches, they circled back and appointed godly leaders now. And then they can well the works not done the whole regions. Not No, no, but that apostolic pioneering work is completely you can finish it. Now move on. So I think there's, you know, it's a real clarity
about the mission. I think I was I was captivated in chapter two, the way the Spirit comes upon every believer, man and women slave and free, young and not every believer is empowered for what to proclaim. God's glory to the world. Yeah, to prophesy. And it's not just oh, Joshua, I see you're gonna you should have another child you. You know, prophecy can be like that. Yeah. But in Acts two, it's it's that proclamation to the world of the
glory of God. Yeah. And so every believer is empowered with inspired speech that come thy will, and why that like the tongues thing, Steve, you know, why were they speaking in tongues thick, all sorts of signs that could have come well, on this one occasion, there was miraculous understanding. But that doesn't seem to be the pattern since then. So why
tongues? Oh, God. just writing it on every believer is hot or everyone who who speaks in tongues that this is going to the nation's remember, they're Jews, what are we Javin array? Arabic or whatever, whatever facet. So God sort of writing his heart into this whole thing. And we can miss that. So a revival meeting is not enough, an auditorium filled with 20,000 people is not enough. You know, lifting your game by 2% Is not this gospel is going to every place and every people. Are you
speaking in tongues? Remind you? Yeah, it's about the nations.
Here get me excited, Steve. Yeah, you got me excited.
Look, the other big surprise in inax is God's in the driver's seat, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they just keep popping up. You know, we are too impressed with our ability to analyze the times to come up with strategies to act to think that you know, people say oh, here's Steve and some other thought leaders and I want my best thoughts. I'm certainly no better than the apostle Peter clueless, regarding the gentleman mission, and God shows up, you know, I'm
no smarter than Paul. I mean, he's not just clueless, he's evil, until Jesus in advance. So you go through the book of Acts, look, not just for the spirit, but the risen Lord Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit. It's his show. It's his mission. And you know, that that ought to be written on our hearts. Now, then the other big surprise, for me is the degree to which he's shaping the lives of His
messengers. And he's even leading them into chaos and trouble revealing their weakness, so that they might display his war. You know, Paul, we're just going to drop you into prison in seas area, where you'll just be forgotten about for two years. And then you'll be in this lovely trip to Rome, shipwreck. And you'll be in Rome for maybe another couple of years, just wiling away your day is sharing the gospel with the Praetorian Guard and Caesar's household and all of that, okay.
But this incredible man of God, ministering in chants, you know, and yet God fulfills His purposes.
Yeah, he does. He gets
the job done. So this, that's what I'm learning in it.
That's beautiful. I love that. You know, as you're looking around the world to the ends of the earth, is there anything that gets you excited right now? What's getting you excited about what God's doing? Yeah, Earth?
Well. I live. We had the world's longest lockdown here in Melbourne, Australia, for a city. Yeah. And that was that was tough. And now other things going with but but I lived off the memory of we just, you know, Cree COVID, I just come back from a trip to Africa, South Africa and Uganda. Yeah. And to be with the brothers and sisters, you know, we're training we're really more helping them to train their
people and get the job done. And just thinking, you know, I don't know if they had been eventually there'll be over a billion if Africa, Sub Saharan Africans, there is a future. Yep. You know, I'll hop on a plane. Now my first flight tonight, after two years of lockdown. And I'm off to Greece, where we'll be meeting with some leaders from around Europe, and it's hard going Europe. But but people are in the field. They may not consistently get to
multiplication. But consistently people are coming to Christ and going into discipleship in a hub field. And then I'll be somewhere in Eurasia. Where, you know, in the Muslim world, it's just we, David Garrison says we we in 1400 years of the history of Christianity and Islam. Now, we have never seen anything. Like the movements we're seeing right now. There's still to shoot. Probably a billion Muslims. But normally it
wouldn't be pretty. But there are multiple movements in multiple fields around the world. So I say to people, if you're worried about your kids and grandkids in the West, don't worry. Because if you don't reach him the Nigerians will come and do that. Yeah. Or the Persians. Uranian. Chinese? Yeah. Because now we're in a global church. And, okay, so far the sun is setting on the west. But the God God is at work. He's still doing you know, that's why X finishes without a proper
finish. We're just we don't even know what happens to Paul. Because Luke saying the story doesn't end. Yeah. What happened in the book of Acts can happen today. And so yeah, that's what I'm excited about.
Yeah. What happens to the book of Acts can happen today. Amen. Two questions at the end here. One, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Mary, Michelle.
That you were I just actually, the last, the last person I interviewed was David garrison. And David Garrison had the same answer. He said he would marry his wife sooner. Yeah. Interesting.
I think the other piece would be just looking back on, especially the next 20 years was hanging in there. Don't be surprised because I have a background with depression. And that played havoc for you know, quite a bit of my life. And yet, at the same time, it was God's gift. You know, it's no longer dominates my life like it has in the past. So when when nothing makes sense, just, you know, hang on to Christ, crucified Christ, Risen Christ coming
again. If even if the whole world says that's a lie, and all your experiences, you know, it's worth hanging, hanging on to Christ. Yeah, that's, that's yeah. And marriage. I realize not everybody
what, anything you've been reading or watching lately that you could recommend.
Look, I'm reading a wonderful, just entry level commentary on Revelation at the moment by Craig Keener, who's one of my favorite, he's a big heart and practice in missions, but he's also one of the world's great New Testament scholars. So that's, that's really nourishing my soul and disturbing me.
I'm sure he will let me
warn you don't read the prophets or revelation. All of a sudden, you realize, you know, so that that's, that's been a real a real blessing in anything, Craig Keener, some of them are like two volumes on the Gospel of John, but he has such a sharp mind and a warm heart. That's, that's
great. Well, Steve, it was just great to talk to you today. So thank you so much. I loved hearing the foundations of what it actually looks like to ground ourselves in identity and calling, be empowered by the Holy Spirit and put the missionary task in front of us and before us and let those things play off of one another. As we continue to go out and try to catalyze movements and see Jesus worship to all over the world. So thank you so much. It was it was a
pleasure talking to you. Well, thank you,
Josh. Sure. I've enjoyed it very much.