Ep. 160 Emily P. Freeman - Discerning When to Stay and When to Go

coming. But is to discern just one next right thing, an arrow in a particular direction. And that is often much more accessible to us, but it's a much slower process.

a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know they should be listening as well. If you're new

here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with you all. Previous guests on the show have included Tod bolsinger. Jim Wilder and Jesse Cruickshank, you can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Emily P. Freeman. Emily is the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of six books, including The next right thing and how to

walk into a room. As a spiritual director and workshop leader. Her most important work is to help create soul space and offer spiritual companionship and discernment For anyone struggling with decision fatigue. Her podcast. The next right thing offers clarity and direction for anyone who wants to move beyond the pro con list in decision making. Emily holds a master's degree in spiritual formation and leadership from Friends University where she also serves as a residency

lecture. She lives in North Carolina with her family, Emily and I have a great conversation around decision making discernment and how to know when to stay and when to go. We walk through a four step discernment process, telling stories of how it works. The four steps are pointing and calling. Remember your path acknowledge presence and yield to the arrows. Our decisions are often made in the moment, but our character has

been formed along the way. So a focus on questions and who we are becoming rather than the answer. We talked about when we are ready to enter a new space. But it's not time yet. And when we know it's time, but we aren't ready. It's such a fantastic conversation. I know that you're going to love this one and get a ton out of it. So join us as we discern when to stay and when to go. Here is my conversation with

Emily P. Freeman. Emily, welcome so much to the podcast, really excited to have you on shifting culture. Thank you for joining me.

become a spiritual director? And what was that decision like for you? And how has that transformed your life with Jesus?

longest to unpack. And so it started for me if I could point to a time when it started for me it was Back in 2016, when I was thinking about, you know, the I was, I had been meeting with a spiritual director on my own. So I'm assuming we all are on the same page with spiritual direction, but I'll just say a sentence definition just for those who might be like, what's

a spiritual director. And really, when we say that we just mean this is someone who is willing to sit with and hold space for you, the directee as you discern, and listen for what God God might be doing in your life. So it's really the director, it's kind of a funny name, because really, the spiritual director doesn't do any directing at all. But the Spirit is the one and so we co listen together prayerfully, to discern what might God be up to.

And so that's really, I had been meaning with a spiritual director with that type of posture for several years by then. And in doing so, with it being transformative in my own life, I also realized, like, oh, I have some of these sensibilities in myself, there's a charism, in me that is drawn to wanting to do this on behalf of and with others. And I started looking for programs as we do, that's what we do, like,

how can I learn. And so in that process, though, I ended up finding a spiritual formation program, which is not a spiritual direction training program. So I sort of went a little bit more broad. And that was its own decision making process that I shared a little bit about in my last book, The next right thing, just about like, you know, sometimes our decisions are the hardest when they're between two good things.

And, you know, it's clear when we know like, here's a good thing and a bad thing, which will you choose, we don't really need a discernment format for that, or a process. But for me, it was either to keep doing the work you're doing or consider, you know, going back to school and thinking through what a spiritual formation discovery might be. So that's what I ended up doing. So it was, so it was broader. And it was just I wanted to learn, what is it? What does it look like to be

transformed? How do we learn from an and become who we are becoming in the process of decision making? And what's the role of formation in that. So that was sort of where I ended up was in the spiritual formation space at Friends University out in Wichita. And I sort of thought that might be it. But over time, since I had graduated the last several years, I realized that there is a part of me that still really wanted kind of that one on one, what does it look like to hold

space for someone else? And, and I and here's the thing about this decision for me of kind of stepping into spiritual direction, as someone who was providing it is, I don't think it would have been wrong if I hadn't. I don't think this was a situation where it was like, God has a will for your life. And it's one thing and you must discover it as if God is a cosmic trickster with two hands behind his back and makes you try to trick pick which one and then you forget it wrong, oh,

well, you missed your path. I just don't think that God works that way. But I have been delighted to discover new ways of relating with God and others, through the practice of spiritual direction. And I, and I imagine I will continue to discover that and in the years to come. So

session. But I think for me, in my own life with God, there is something almost, it's hard to put into words, it's an intangible kind of a mysterious connection. And not like, not not weird, not in a weird way, but a connection where there's just so few opportunities in life where we are able to or where we make the space to give someone else, that type of listening attention. And I know it's been said in many different ways, but listening, when you're when you're listened to it feels

a lot like love. And when you're the one doing the listening, I think that it's a gift for me, with God, to be able to offer that to someone else. imperfectly. I'll say that imperfectly, but I think it also that the most transformative part sometimes for me in meeting one on one because someone is just after either right when they leave, or just after a lot of the work I do is on Zoom. So when we turn off the Zoom call, and there's sort of this, like a thin place that still hovers in

the room. And I, I just almost have to put my hand on my heart and in honor of, of how God is moving in the life of another, which is a reminder that God is always moving Brennan meaning said, If God is speaking, then nothing else matters. But listening. And so I think that this work is helping me to see the profound nature of that, even when, with a direct tea, what we talked about was so mundane, when it may have seemed as if literally, quote, unquote,

nothing was happening. But just the, the space that is made for spirit to move, for me has become an is continuing to become a real gift for me to remember, the spirit is always moving.

too. That's the that was really the catalyst for me wanting to have this extended six years long conversation in the first place is, is not only helping people discern, you know, kind of what to do next. But also, more importantly, to me, and this is where the formation comes in is, Who am I becoming, as a result of having to determine what am I to do? Because really, it's not about the decision that we make, not really, it's about the person

who I am becoming. As I enter into this discernment process. Iris Murdoch talks about who's Irish author philosopher, says that crucial moments of choice, most of the business of decision making has already passed. And I think that's true that that our decisions are made in the moment. But our character is formed as we go along our way. And our awareness of what it means to be ourselves what it means to walk with God, what it means to walk in wisdom. That's something we cultivate on the

daily. And so the questions that people ask, though, are those sort of step number 10 questions? What should I do? And they're not always asking, we're not always asking, like, who am I becoming? And so my work is to try to close that gap between people when we're asking like, what's the right thing to do, because we want to avoid regret, we want to avoid hurting someone we want to avoid messing up we want to avoid, in some cases, really profoundly wishing we had

done something different. We want to avoid all of those things. But I'm trying to pull us back and say, Well, who are you becoming today? And what's life draining and giving today? And what does it mean to move toward God? And what does it mean for you in your life right now, when you're moving away from God, and if we can begin to name and be aware of all of those things on the daily, then when it comes time to make a decision on the spot? We're going to we may not make it

perfectly. But I think we're going to make it with with more competence and awareness of God, God being with us in that process.

ourselves? So what does that do for our decision making process when it turns from productivity in production, and machine towards becoming more human and more of how God wired us and made us to be? Well, it

of questions. And so our work then is to begin to discern, not maybe the end game, or the ultimate answer, although hopefully that will end up coming. But is to discern just one next right thing, an arrow in a particular direction. And that is often much more accessible to us, but it's a much slower process.

What is it like when we're just sitting with questions? How do we discern the arrows?

Safe Community, whatever the space is? Or is it time for me to leave? And because because we know that that question holds within it, so many consequences, and it can impact so many people? And depending on what the question is, we're asking whether it has to do with vocation or with our faith or with our community or with our home, that so much is going to be impacted. And there are a million other choices that are kind of come with it regardless

whether which way we go. And so I think something that we often do is some of us, in order to just make it through this question we have, we might leave too soon, we walk all the way out, we leave everything behind, because we don't like that feeling of not having made the choice. And we just recognize, kind of like there's something in here I don't like and so I'm a person who has like a right now, like just take action, I'm

going to leave too soon. But then maybe there were there were things that could have stayed for they hadn't realized. Other times, we might leave on time, but we don't have a framework for processing that or for reflection. And so we don't really know how to walk in a healthy way into the next room that might be waiting for us. I would say some of the most painful exits are when we're forced to leave even though we

wanted to stay. And then we're left asking, Well, what now I'm in a hallway, not of my own choosing. And so where do I go now? And then there are some of us who stay put and maybe we are we stay longer than is time? Because we didn't have a framework for making this decision. And then we wonder how do I make peace with the change that's come in the space? When maybe I should have left a month, a year 10 years ago, but here I am and what am I to do

now? So to me and what I am leaning hard into is sort of a four part framework for thinking through Okay, should I stay or should I go? I dare you not to have that clash song in your head. Good. Yeah,

change. But in it he talked about the Japanese railway workers who have this safety habit of pointing and calling out what is true, though they don't just look at the speed they actually say it out loud with their voices. When the train comes into the station.

They actually state you know, what was the mileage and what is the time everything is spoken and it seems kind of silly almost like toddlers pointing out obvious things like there's my ball and there's my doll and and you know it's time to watch bluey. But what how this can apply to us. What James clear submits is that when we state these things plainly it helps us know where we are in space and time and helps us to do that next rate thing and to build

small habits. And I would say the same can be true for our inner life, that when we point and call it what is actually happening in this room, so that I don't leave too soon or stay too long. What is true here now, and there are some questions we can ask ourselves in that in those spaces that can help us begin to discern, not Should I stay, or should I go? That's a step 10 question where it should step right now? What are the

yellow flags in this room? A lot of us want to say, well, this is a red flag, this is a red flag. And I would just submit, what if instead of going directly to everything's a red flag, or everything's a green flag, what if we say anything that gives me pause is a yellow flag, and it's just an invitation to, to pause, and to hold, and to pay attention, and to name specifically to point and call?

What's actually happening here that's causing me to ask the question, should I stay or go in the first place?

But really, you need to go in to the hospital, you need to continue to move forward. What are some of the questions for us to start to discern, as we start to points in call, say, what is true right now that we can say, this is the place that we're going towards, and we're not just sitting at the signs and not moving past them?

this about? And so some of those questions you can ask, before you make a final decision about staying longer, or getting out or even making a change while you're there. One question could be, is any one or any thing missing from this room? And if so, who? Or what? That, for me, is a really helpful, just big picture question of knowing who feels comfortable here, who has already left this room ahead of me? Who is walking into this room? What kind of impact does their presence have on the room?

And what kind of impact? Have those who have already left? What kind of impact is their absence have on this room? And obviously, this may not apply for every single room of our life. But I think especially in communal spaces? These are some good questions to ask. Another question that we can ask is, to what extent can I be myself in this room? Do I have to change myself to such a degree that I don't even recognize myself in order to inhabit this room

anymore? If the people who know me the best, and who love me the most showed up in this room? What questions would they have for me? What questions would they have about this space? Would they see a version of me that they recognize? Or why do I find myself constantly having to censor or edit or muffle my own thoughts or ideas? And by the way, that can be a good question to ask in particular relationships or partnerships.

Because a lot of times we might find ourselves just shifting ever so slightly in a certain direction. But over time, you can end up in a really different place than where you ever intended in those personal or professional relationships. So I think that's another good question for those types of rooms.

doesn't fit anymore? It's I know that I need to leave, but you stayed too long. And what was that process like when you had you stayed too long in the room? And you finally got to the place where Okay, I have to exit or else I'm going to implode? What was what was that process? Like? What was a time in your life where that happened to you?

Patience is developing within you and when, when it's time but you're not ready is an opportunity to exercise courage. And so, one specific time in my own life when this has been true is when I was co leading an online membership community for writers and I helped start it. And it was with a couple of business partners. One was my own dad, and we had a great relationship we still do. So

it's nothing like that. But it was just one of those things where, over time, I started to realize this work I'm doing with these writers and in this space is very good work. But I don't know if it is long term going to be my best work. And I felt called and pulled in a direction of being able to kind of focus on some new writing and some new things I wanted to do professionally and even just personally, that because I was a part of this business was just not going to be possible because

of the capacity. And so I started to talk, you know, my business partners and I, we talked it through and you know, there were some things in motion to be like, Okay, well, what does exiting look like for any of us who might want to accent in the future. And, and I was sitting on ready as my mother in law from Mississippi says, But then something very small happened called the pandemic of the year 2020. And I was ready. But it was not time, there were things that we needed to shift.

And I'm sure a lot of people can relate there, maybe you were ready on a decision, and you were kind of heading in a direction. And then something huge happens whether it was the actual pandemic or something else in your life at diagnosis, a family, it's something happens. And you you're ready, but it's not time. And so I don't know that that's an example where I quote unquote, stayed too long. Because I, I don't know that there was another course of action I could

have taken. But bodily it in my body, I felt that feeling of being ready for a change, but not being able to make that change. And so that was a period of three years where I do feel like I was challenged, to cultivate patience, to learn what I could learn to receive the gifts of the room that I had to make the best of a time that was difficult on everyone, not just in the business, but just

globally everyone. And and to really accept the difference between kind of what I would say would be good timing, and what ultimately, in partnership with God was the good timing. So I think that's, that's one example where some of it may have been I mean, I could have just walked away, but I don't think that leaving would have been good for anyone. But I think that's a good example of knowing and want knowing this is a direction and eventually you know that this is probably not going to be your

job forever. But needing to, to put some things in place. And to wait some things out that are just beyond your control.

comes up. How do you have the courage? When you know, it's time, even though circumstances are telling you it may not be the time? How do you have the courage to say jump? It's

there are very few. There are some, but there are very few moments in life where it's now or never. So knowing that God is not going to let me miss my own life, and that God is going to be with me no matter what, even if I, even if I fail drastically, in the eyes of the world or myself, that there is always a question that I can ask myself, which is okay, but what does this make possible? Now, this is one that, you know, we hear business people ask a lot, but I think it's helpful here

too. But I would also say that, in addition to pointing and calling some other steps along that path are one or two, I would say pointing calling would be step one, step two would be to remember the path you've already walked. So rather than trying to peer ahead into the future of like, when is the right exact time to leave or, you know, thinking about, there's a path in front of me that I have to discern, I would say, the first thing to do is look at the path behind me that

I've already walked. Because that's really the in life, we're almost always only standing at the start, there is no path laid out before us except the one we walk with Jesus. And it's not necessarily predetermined in the

way that we think. I think there is such a collaboration with God, that it's almost like we're entering into a dance together, and that there is a back and forth newness that we can experience in communal life with the Trinity, that we can move forward together and create a thing that wasn't there before. Not not as having to try to find something that we missed. And so this practice of reflection, for me, has been helpful to determine timing, because I

don't know what's ahead. But I do know what's already happened. And I can look back and see when a times other times when I have stayed too long. And what were the signs along the way? And what what were the what was at stake for me to leave sooner. And and what was the result of me staying longer than I had hoped. Beth Moore did an interview with Russell Moore talking about leaving the Southern Baptist Convention. And she talked about how it's a lot easier to leave when we're angry

than when we're sad. And she talked about how if we wait until we're angry, we may have waited too long. And I think that's an important barometer A can be one barometer to consider, when or times in my life in the past, when I have been so enraged, and my and I have left the room and slammed the door behind me. That's one way to leave. Is it the most generative? Is it the one that I treasure? The most? Probably not. But man, it's it is easier to leave when you're angry than when you're sad.

there. It means that everyone understands why I'm leaving and the timing, it means that there are no questions and all is certain. And that's what we think leaving well is. But I would like to submit that sometimes leaving well is leaving alive. It's it's leaving in with a great amount of trust that I may or may not be doing this at the exact right time. But I'm going to trust that God is with me and that God is with you who might still be in the

room behind me. I'm going to trust that in the same way that I may have been brought to the room. I may have even prayed for this room in the past. And this was my next right thing at one time that I'm going to trust that just because it might not be a room for me anymore, does not mean that it wasn't a right room for me then. And that can help me with a lot of regret or questions or questioning saying like, Oh, I wanted this so badly. And now I've changed my

mind. Is that okay? And I would say yes, leaving well is understanding that there's a healthy human rhythm to leaving rooms and finding new ones. And that doesn't mean that something is wrong with you. It might be that something is magnificently right. And so leaving well can also mean knowing and naming the gifts that I'm both leaving behind and that I'm taking with me and it can also mean refusing to Don't romanticize your next room or villainize your last trim. Yeah,

hear you and listen to you. What is that, that process like of leaving a room with that fear of abandonment, knowing that most likely, these friends may be gone as well. And that we might have to find new people on our journey.

that will need to be named. And I think that we do ourselves no favors when we think that trusting God with our next right thing, especially when it comes to leaving a space means that God will then allow every relationship to remain the same and will allow me to still feel like I'm part of this group, and will allow me to maintain all of my things that I earned in order to be in that space to begin with. The reality is there might be a lot of loss that we have to

contend with. But I would say a greater reality, that as we leave rooms and find new ones, where we can flourish and grow is that we are becoming someone and hopefully we are becoming more fully ourselves. And part of that process is two things is paying attention to and living in line with one our own core values, and to our own spiritual personality, or our way that we connect with God. And sometimes with our core values, and our own connection, a way to connect with God, when those are

aligned. In the space is where we find ourselves to the degree that we have the control to align those because always silly, sometimes, we can't make the decision to leave, and we must stay in a place. There's misaligned. But when we can align, I think that can often there's a presence that is

available to us. And that even with the abandonment, feeling, even with the loneliness, and the presence is our very selves with God, and and coming home to our own self in God can offer a great amount of comfort in the midst of some real loss of potential loss of relationship. Well,

And so it is like, hey, we have have left the room that we know, like, we don't have the same house like when we moved, we were in the Middle East, we were working with Syrian refugees, we move back to the States, and my mother in law moved in with us as soon as we moved in. So for the last seven years, like, this is what we have known. And my son has only known his grandmother and the home. And so now we have to walk into a new room. And we have to grieve the loss of a loved one that lived

with us. But also now our literal home feels quite different. So if I'm not physically moving, and going somewhere else to to have a start to enter into something new. Are there any good steps that we can take to say, okay, even we're in the same space like the physical space, how do we make that and enter and well into something brand new?

and now they are no longer. And now we are all agreeing together and facing in the same direction to offer gratitude for their life. But also, we're marking the ending communally, and saying what was is no longer and what will be we don't yet know. And that right, there is a first step toward that, that is a way that we have culturally decided to point and call, it's a pointing and calling grief ritual that we all engage in.

But I think when you go back home, like you said, and your home is the very same, and you're not leaving the room physically, but you are leaving the room in your own. In your own experience of that room. I think this process, I think it's important, at least it has been for me to find personal ways of marking this ending differently. And that can be something as small as lighting a candle, in

the name of someone else. It can be a small, daily examined practice where we look back over the day and remember, where was God with me today? And how did God show up with with me in my life, and where did this person's memory also remain? Are there any new rituals or rhythms we can engage as a family, that we can be thankful for what was and name it and not avoid it, and not avoid the pain and the grief that will come along with

letting it go. But also, we can intentionally introduce new rhythms, and engage them together communally facing in the same direction in smaller ways carrying on, I'm a big fan of when there is no communal ending to mark that we find ways to mark those endings on our own. And so I think a funeral or celebration of life is one way we do that. And it's a very good

way, an important way. But then there are those daily things that might come up to that we might need to have celebrations of life ongoing on behalf of someone else as we continue to grieve their absence in our physical space.

We've talked a little bit about arrows, is there anything else that you'd like to say, as we move into this, this last process of yielding to the arrows?

the arrow to Columbia. And I'm going to keep going south. I know ultimately, the direction I'm headed as Florida, I might not know exactly though, from here, it's not going to tell me that's where I'm headed all the way back here. And so I think in life, the same can be true as we yield to the arrows in our life, I might not know where I'm going to end up occasionally, I might not know if I should choose this

space or that one. But I can pay attention to what is just one next right thing, what is one arrow I can follow. And I would say usually an arrow to me is just one thing is not 16 things, which is, you know, very inefficient, as I said before, but I think this idea of arrows, you know, I introduced that idea back in, in my book, The next right thing in 2019. And that's one of the things is given people the most trouble they're like, What do you mean an arrow and how do I find an arrow? How

do I see do you mean a sign? Do you mean a voice? Do you mean, you know, and I want to say like, Oh, love is all going to be okay. I think arrows can come in all kinds of ways. But one of the most obvious ways that we've already talked about is looking

back before moving forward. It's remarkable how looking back can actually help me do my next right thing, because I don't know the future but I do know the past and So paying attention to arrows I followed before and knowing where they've led can really help me think about my my next arrow, always with the understanding and comfort to know a psalm 23 promises that that the Lord is my shepherd. I

have everything I need. and that he will lead me, no matter if it's through valleys of shadow of death, that he will lead me and He will be with me. And that's a promise that we can hold on to. And I think it's an important one to think about with that final movement of yielding to the arrows, which by the way, these four movements do spell the word pray, which I

think is an important. The most important rootedness to remember, in any decision making process is is, is paying attention to how God is with me now, and now. And now. And that's a form of prayer. It's

And I guess I would say, my hope is that in that exploration, I guess my hope would be that we would not be so afraid to make a move, or even to stay put, but that our narratives would not get in the way our narratives of what it means to be a Stayer, or what it means to be a lever or what it means to quit something like these are strong, deeply held cultural narratives. Depending on our social location, and our season of life

and our family of origin. Those are strong narratives that can keep us from really yielding to arrows in our life with God, when we might be sending an invitation. But all those strong narratives might be holding us back. And so that would be my hope, is that regardless of if you stay in a room or leave a room, that you would not be afraid to ask your questions.

walking us through that. Emily, I have a couple of questions for you at the end. One is if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

around us. So that has been it's been a beautiful read. I started it years ago, or maybe a year ago, and I was like, I need more margin in my life for this because I knew it was just so rich and good. And so I've picked it up now. And it has it has been really generative and life giving for me

in it. But I would say that now and in the past, probably the times when I have most experienced God and that Finn place is in, in parenting questions in questions of knowing do I lean all the way in? Or do I lean all the way out? Because listen, shame never takes a break. And no, where do I recognize it more than in my parenting decisions. And so I think, though, though, that's the worst. And I don't want any

of that. I don't like any of those words I just said, however, I have found the promise to be true, that God is with me in the midst of those what sometimes feels like walking through the valley of the shadow of death and the great unknowing of am I doing this, right? And when is the grown up, kind of show up? And parent these kids in the proper way? And here I am, you know, they're 20 years old, like Emily, it's, it's over? It's not I understand, but it feels that way. Sometimes like, wow, I If

only I could go back. But I do feel like I have experienced God and really sweet ways. In those times where I am at the like, not only am I at the end of the rope, I can't even see the rope, man. It's just like there was a rope here one time, and it's long gone by now. Yeah,

23. And God walking with them, in the midst of that, and that embodied presence of another human, that we could be the embodied presence of Jesus in their life as well give them much hope. But it's the walking with and the struggle, and the pain and the sorrow and the deep, deep trauma of life, that you feel his presence, you know, he's there. Emily, how can people get your book? Where would you like to point people to? How can people connect with you? Well,

life. And then we also have final thing is I have a newsletter, a substack newsletter called The sole minimalist, where we take kind of whatever that topic that week on the podcast was, and we kind of move it to the written space where we can talk about it, because that's the thing about podcasting, as I'm sure you know, is you're saying things but you kind of want to have a

conversation sometimes. So that's what the substack and that enables us to be able to do is to kind of move beyond the pro con list of decision making, and really kind of get into the deeper level of okay, but what is discernment? And what does it look like in this particular situation? Ship? So we do that at the soul minimalist on substack. Well,

for that. And you know, your book, How to walk into a room as absolutely fantastic. This discernment process of you know, the process that you talk to the the pray process is really important and asking good questions. So figuring out how to walk into a room and the space well, is it time, or is it not time yet, but I feel ready. But you know, the difference between peace and avoidance?

There's so many things and so thank you for this conversation as you He walked us through that process your story with that process and you helping us discern how to walk into a room. It was a fantastic conversation. I love talking to you. So thank you so much.