I think ultimately the benediction that I really want is for people to to know that they're not alone. And to begin to notice and understand and see the invitations of the Spirit that exists not in spite of where they have landed because of their questions or doubts or their experiences, but precisely because of it. And that the love of God is the thing that is carrying you and holding you and is the abundant life that you've been looking for all along that it's already
here. I think it's hard to be a person. And I think it's hard to move through the world and all of us carry our own wounds and bruises and hurts along the way. And so finding a way to be able to be even just one voice in their ear that saying, I'm not afraid. And you are very loved. And you're on the right track.
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com To interact to donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy.
It only takes a second and helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new
here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Amber C Haynes, Kayla Craig and Scot McKnight. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Sarah Bessie. Sarah Bessie is the author or editor of five books, including The New York Times bestseller of
rhythm of prayer. She also leads evolving faith, a conference, an online community for people who are reimagining their faith with hope. Bets. He lives in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, with her husband, and their four children. Sarah's latest book is Field Notes for the wilderness, and telling you that it's my favorite book I've ever read is no exaggeration. I love this book. It's full of grace and love and welcome. I could go on and on. But you need to get it
like right now. And then pull up a chair in front of the fire with a warm cup and go deep into the beauty and wonder of Sarah's writing. But before you do that, you get to listen to this wonderful conversation. Sara and I talked about practices for an evolving faith. We talk wonder and amazement in the every day falling deeper into the love of God that there is nowhere we could go where God's love cannot
find us. We talk smallness and goodness about sharing the truth is not an excuse to forget the fruit of the Spirit. We talked about unlearning paradigm shifts and relearning new ways, and the difference between peacemaking and peacekeeping. Ultimately, we talked about not being alone. There is community in the wilderness. And there's God's love in the wilderness. So join us as we navigate the wilderness of an involving faith. Here's my conversation with Sarah Bessie.
Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me on shifting culture. Really appreciate it.
Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for the invitation.
I spent a few summers up in the Calgary area was actually up in Red Deer. Really? coach basketball? Yeah, I know. Anybody
who knows where I am, we're ready. We're at Red Deer. That's that's legit. Yeah.
And, you know, we were we were coaching basketball outside on outdoor basketball courts in the middle of June. It was the end of June and it started snowing. Like it's not supposed to snow at the end of June. We
do call it June, January. And it's like a little bit of snow just to keep you humble.
How are you doing with the cold right now? It seems bitterly cold. It
was bitterly cold last week, we were in like minus 50 Polar Vortex, like just absolutely freezing whereas now it's like a balmy minus 19 so we're all my kids are outside without coats on or our standard of temperature is be completely messed with. So now we're we're good. I mean, for the most part, I mean, you know, we just kind of learn to navigate I guess along the way. It was funny though, like I did this video on
Instagram. And I kind of opened it by being like, Oh, if Good morning from Calgary, it's minus 40. I just thought The kids off at school, this mat, and the amount of people who were like wait minus 40 and still took the kids to school. I was like, welcome. That's what we do. There's never a snow day where where it's like this, you just keep going.
Yeah, you just keep going. It's good. And I think that's what we do in the wilderness. So your new book, Field Notes for the wilderness? I'd love to start out with your journey in the wilderness. What was it like for you to find yourself in the midst of a faith wilderness? And what were you feeling at that time?
Hmm. Well, for me, you when I very first kind of had that, that experience of, you know what now you would I would call, you know, deconstruction, or whatever else. It was really disorienting, I think, because at the time, there wasn't a lot of the conversation and the support and the resources of the normalization that we have nowadays. So it was scary. And it was, I think it's scary to this day, to be honest, right for a lot of us. But there was the sense of like, oh, this is
the end of everything. And it it felt very scary. It I didn't know what the implications would be for church for myself. I mean, I think one of the things that I've run into in the wilderness for a lot of us is that some of the narratives that can kind of be spoken about us is that we got here because we were faithless, or we wanted something else, or we were never true believers or whatever else.
Whereas in my experience, I found that usually were the kids who were all the, like, we were the ones who were like the truest of true believers, that oftentimes, we landed here at this place of doubt, or questions or wrestling, precisely because we were so faithful. And because we were so so entered, and so for me, you know, my first experiences with this would have been in my early 20s, mid 20s, has happened a few times since then, I think, as we
all learn as we get older. And so now looking back from this vantage point of you know, 25 years later, I can see all the things that kind of went into it, but I can also see how isolating it was. And I think that that's maybe what was in the back of my mind when I was coming to the page and wanting to write this book, you know, that kind of pulls together about 10 years worth of work in
this lane. And you know, shepherding working pastoral work and care work has been to say like, alright, so if you feel really lonely, and you feel like you've lost yourself, or a version of yourself, or maybe even you've lost God, when you do feel so disoriented, and and without some of the maps or compasses that have always worked before. What are the things that you would want to
have alongside of you? What are the what is kind of the Spirit even that you would want to take with you as you entered that space? So I think probably a lot of this book is because of how I felt during that initial time actually, like maybe you're just kind of creating what you wished you would have had, perhaps? Or
is there a thing or two or a person or two that helps you, like guided you along your journey through an evolving faith through the wilderness that made you feel a little bit less alone?
Absolutely, I mean, I think that's one of the things that it's almost kind of a consistent surprise for a lot of us, is that you, you enter into this feeling very isolated, very alone. Oftentimes, you're the only person in your family or your community or your church, who's the, you know, asking these questions, or who's wrestling with some of these, you know, accepted truths or whatever else. And then all of a sudden, you realize you're not
as alone as you thought. And there's this, like, you know, not only is there a whole community of people that are out here in the wilderness with you. But also there is there are people who have created paths, and who have walked ahead of you, whether they are ancient paths, or they are new ones, whether they're people who you're alongside of or people who have kind of come ahead. So for me, I mean, there were a lot
of things. And a lot of people who came alongside I think one of the things that I look back on though the most has been most formative was actually my dad, which I know is a rare story for a lot of people in, in I think a lot of deconstruction or or evolving faith places. Oftentimes, that's your biggest point of, of loss is with your family of origin. But for me, with my parents, they were they were super curious and really interested. And now of course, in their 70s they're still that
curious. But I remember that moment, years ago, where my dad very pointedly said to me, that he wasn't afraid for me or about me, that even even if I landed somewhere completely different than where he had landed with his faith that he honestly believed that if I was seeking God, that I was held in the love of God and that that that that
was going to be okay. And I think just that level of like acceptance and permission, that non anxious presence for me that that blessing of the fact that my path could look really different from hence you gave me the permission then to be like, Okay, we're going to do this, you know, I'm not going to feel like I need to suppress or hide or perform or mask up, you know, or play along to feel loved that instead, there's actually room
here. So I think that that kind of spirit maybe was something that I was drawn to in a number of different speakers that are or teachers or voices. It's funny now looking back from this place, because I can look back on like certain moments or movements that meant a lot to me at the time, even if I didn't
stay there very long. Whether it was like the Emerging Church of like, the early odds was like, so huge for me of being able to be like, you're allowed to talk about this stuff, you're allowed to have questions, you're allowed to do things differently, like, and now it seems so adorable looking back on it. But there were a lot of moments like that along the way. And whether it was through the page, I mean, granted, I'm a writer, so I want to throw a
book at everything. So I mean, I got a lot of companionship through the pages of books, with other people and things that even on the internet, I think that was a big turning point for me was, you know, realizing that there were a lot of folks like me who were and folks who were very different than me, who were asking similar questions and wrestling with similar issues, and we're talking about it out loud. And that was exciting and liberating at the same time.
Yeah, it's so great that there were some paths that you could start to find your way within the wilderness. And you had somebody give you permission to say, let's be curious, ask questions. Seek God in the way that you know how, and the best way that you can, so that you can just sit in the love of God. And I think sometimes it's really hard to sit in the love of God, when it feels like everything around you
is burning. And so a lot of people in evangelical churches stay or in, in different churches sometimes feel like, Man, I, I feel trapped. I feel like things are burning. How? What's a practice for for those people to say? I can be curious, given permission to be curious and sit in the love of God as they move forward, even if they're in the midst of a of a fire? Hmm,
that's a really good question. And a very pastoral one, Joshua, like, I think, I think that's one of the things that maybe is what is being reset in us over and above any opinions that we're trading in and out? I think sometimes initially, when we very first kind of enter the wilderness or we enter into this season, we think we're just kind of trading one set of opinions and facts and beliefs and answers for another set. And that could definitely be part of it. Right?
There's a lot of things that I've changed my mind on or theology that I've renegotiated or, you know, ideas that I've had to deepen or refine, or let go of, in a lot of cases, if they were, you know, not super helpful. So at evolving faith, which is a conference that a community that I that I had co founded a number of years ago, there was one year where Daniel Shroyer, who was a spiritual, who is a spiritual director, she posed this question to us, and she said, What does it look like
to let God love you? And the way that that brought like an exhale, but also this sense of like permission to almost all of us who were in the room? And I've carried that question with me ever since. And I think that when you do feel like everything's burning around you, when it does feel like maybe even your version of God is disappearing, like steam on a mirror, right after you're after a shower, you open the door. There's this sense of like, what does it look like then to lean
into love? Wherever you find it, and however you cultivate it, what does it look like? Where you do feel loved, and you do feel like your most most true self? And then how do you practice that and make room for that? Instead of minimizing it? Or trying to push it to the side or acting like that doesn't matter or somehow that that some
some lesser version of God? I think that one of the things that was really healing for me, during that initial white hot kind of center of loss, was realizing that I couldn't wander away from God's love. You know, there's this passage in Psalm 139, where the writer where David talks about how even if I make my bed in hell, you're already there, that there's no place that I can go that your spirit isn't already already there. And there was something about that of like, there's
nowhere I can go. And there's nowhere I can be and there's no opinion I can hold or thing I can change or, or aspect of my life that couldn't be dismantled that would somehow dismantle that love, and that that undergirding and I think that's something I saw in the life of Jesus that I found so compelling, and I still find incredibly compelling to this day of just, this is what it looks like when you count out wander the love of God, that there's a room to breathe,
there's room to stretch, there's room to play, even and explore as opposed to threats and teeny tiny little white boxes for God, like it just, there's so much more room and so much more beauty and goodness, I think that maybe we even knew to hope for.
There's so much beauty and goodness and so much love. And the opposite of that is, is fear. And I think a lot of people are fearing that culture is eroding. So they have to preserve something. And so they hold on to a faith of the past that's not serving people or the moment right now, where it's not bringing people love. I have a lot of people in my life that have lost community because they believe that that their church or churches are not following the path of love.
They're following the path of cultural preservation. How can we change our posture? And know that it's going to be okay, Jesus has got it. God's love will pursue us. And we can have open hands and move towards curiosity and not be afraid, in the midst of it.
Yeah, I think that that's, that's kind of a question that a lot of us are kind of finding ourselves out. And I've never, I mean, granted, I come from like, a Pentecostal ish, prosperity gospel Word of Faith, charismatic kind of background. Hence, the reason why I like words like powers and principalities, and I still deploy them. But I remember one of those things being that actually being a huge part of some of the things that we would
talk about. And we would go back to stories that were told in Scripture about old wine in new wineskins. And in a lot of ways, I think even that language from my past has helped me understand this shifting culture kind of
moment. Of, yes, Jesus is the same yesterday and today, and forever, but how we move through the world and how we understand that and even the questions of our time, have shifted so much that there may need to be new wineskins, there may need to be new ways of of embodying that or
of understanding that. And I think that sometimes that's the invitation that we see there's this really beautiful redemptive arc to it, that that just keeps going deeper and further into the love and acceptance from the goodness of God. And I think that that's one of those things that sometimes can be a difficult thing to release.
While at the same time having a sense of honor for what was and that's kind of a difficult needle to thread there, right of saying, okay, maybe I've outgrown this box, or maybe this is old, wineskins, or whatever else, can I bless the things that I once needed for God, even if I leave them behind, and I move forward into where, where the Spirit is moving right now and have some awarenesses and openness to a new thing that may be happening there, as long as you you're being led by the
Spirit knowing led by love and within all of that, right? Because I think sometimes the the tendency or the draw we have when we become preservationist is this idea of like, well, I'm just gonna do everything I can to keep things the same. And that is just not how anything in our lives or in the world or at nature, or at anything works, you're always evolving, you're always adapting, you're always shifting and changing and
learning and growing. Otherwise, you're missing the point and you're missing the voice of the Spirit. And you can become so almost turtled into that, that you're not not even aware of the invitations that are happening around us. And so, yeah, I think that that's, that's one of those things that will always be a little bit of a struggle. And it's one of those things that will always be the invitation in front of us. Yeah,
I really pray that we could have that posture, and continue to love and grow and grow and the depth of the love of God forever and ever. Because you just can't get to the end of it. And wow, be really compelled by the love of God, into the world. In the spaces where we live and work and play. Man, it just seems to be the antidote to to what the world is going through.
Literally, it just so much more humility than right it does it just which is maybe an old fashioned word, you know, for for us nowadays. But even I think that that's maybe part of the invitation is one of humility and learning and curiosity instead of certainty. And If This Then That, and I had it all figured out at 25 Then I don't need anything else ever,
ever again. It does. It does require an openness to other people's stories that other people's experiences and I know for me, I've learned to love God and love my Bible and love this world better by precisely because you listen to and are in relationship with people who have such a different experience. than you in the world, or even then you're there experience with God even. It just makes you love, love everybody a little bit better.
It's easy to tell people there your opinion, it's hard to hard work to tell your story. That's for sure. That's what my friend Nisha always used to say.
That's beautiful. How can we cultivate a sense of awe and wonder and beauty in the world and take notice and pay attention to what is in front of us?
That is actually secretly one of my favorite chapters in the book, actually, Joshua, like it was. So it's, it's funny, you asked that one, because that's one that I think we may be skipped over. When we are in deconstruction, we often want to run down to fundamentals. Right? And we are eager to answer questions and and, you know, kind of set out a
new life plan. Right. And, and so I think that those those wider invitations that the spirit has for us, whether it is around things like joy, and hope and repentance, and love, and transformation, and healing, like those are great big, huge nouns and verbs, for me wonder, has actually been one of the most beautiful things that have been restored to me because of the wilderness, that there was this almost spiritual practice of saying, I don't know it,
isn't it amazing? You know, and it gave me back, almost like a child's eyes to look at things like solar systems and ladybugs and like the way of kind of moving through not only creation, but even this sense of like other people a sense of wonder, and curiosity and goodness to it. And so, you know, I think that the ways that you cultivate that, or the ways that you create that is, is almost by having that posture of openness. Like for me, I felt like a lot of it was restored,
because we have four kids. And anybody who's ever, like, spent a lot of time with little kids, you'll learn to like, notice things. And you begin to see some of those sacraments. And that's certainly not the only way to do that. I mean, there's a lot of people who aren't parents, or, you know, for a million reasons, who have the much more of understanding of
Wonder than I do. But I remember like, just these moments with my kids of being like, what's the first time that they'd been outside at night and saw the Milky Way or the, the Northern Lights, and just how they can sing, and, and that just resets something beautiful and good and nourishing, and us? I think it is one of those things that when we do feel like we're starving for something, it does fill us
up. And I know that there's lots of different places where we find a sense of wonder, we can have that in relationships, and in, you know, embodiment, and in Scripture and in learning. And, you know, but I think it does begin in that posture of saying, letting yourself almost be enchanted, and letting yourself be amazed a little bit.
I was able to do that I was able to take a sabbatical this summer, my wife and you know, part of a section of our sabbatical was spent in the Austrian Alps. And so taking taking walks in the Alps, like, okay, yes, I have wonder and amazement, and it's all there, I could pay attention, I'm slowing down, but then I come back into a busy life of, of work, and family, and, you know, and church and everything else that I'm doing in my life. And I
often forget it. I forget the wonder and the amazement that God has has brought me to you and actually showed me, here it is, hey, attention. And that's continually my invitation from God is to pay attention. Yeah, look at this wonder, wonderful thing that I've created. And humans and nature, in our busy lives, how, what are some ways that we could start to cultivate that, so we can slow down and pay attention and not just go through the motions?
I think that that's, those are almost kind of like those those rhythms of our life that don't get a lot of attention. I think, I think that's one of those things, maybe that I deconstructed really early on was my husband and I jokingly call it like our evangelical hero complex. Like, in like, the 80s and 90s. It was like you had to do like great big huge things for God and you had to like, you know, just this hero narrative that like savior complex thing that was just
constantly on you, right? To the point where, when we found ourselves in adulthood with with rather ordinary jobs and rather ordinary life and rather ordinary things, it was like, Well, are we are we doing enough? Is my life enough? Is God disappointed in me? And what
does it look like? So for us having to relearn a whole theology around the goodness of work, and the goodness of relationships and home and family and even smallness within In our life was actually the thing that began to kind of heal that broken bone that existed between what was secular and what was sacred in our lives. It was almost like we had gone through our lives, like, none of you had this experience of like, relegating, here's all the things that are sacred over in
this pile. And here's all the things that are secular. Over in this file, whether it was like music, movies, you know, the world, like, whatever. And it was like, so you would be encouraged all the time to like, whatever secret so like, you're gonna get your quiet times you're gonna do your worship music, you're gonna do your Bible studies with flowers on the covers, you're gonna do like a, you know, all the worksheets, you're gonna do all this, the mission trips are gonna drill.
So that's, that's kingdom, and everything else, while you're just pure fodder, you're funding the work of the ministry, that's actually happening with the grownups at the grown up table.
And so even like deconstructing that narrative, for me was huge for this very thing of just being able to be like, there is no line between what is secular and what is sacred, that God's presence and the invitation of the Spirit is as present when I'm picking up Rice Krispies off the floor, from a toddler who up ended a bowl as it is, for preaching on a stage that it is that all of those are places where you encounter the Holy Spirit, you have invitations of goodness, and love and
hopefulness within it. And so I think that that was maybe one of the things that that I'm still thankful for, to this day that was completely destroyed. Even though at the time it felt like a lot of loss to be like, well, all these hero things that made me special, it made me important
and made God love me more. And I'm so loved by Jesus, because I'm so productive and such a good little soldier, it's like, none of that, when you lose all of that, when your ability to perform on the platforms disappear when whatever else kind of happens, or you're not able to pray the way you used to pray, or or whatever else it is
that kind of emerges. Those are those are your invitations to then say, well, what is in front of me and where what is the invitation from the spirit in this place, like I remember, is probably a longer answer than you need. No, but
everybody loves long answers.
There's this one night with my kids were little. So they're all grown in teenagers now. And whatever else the when they were little, my older three wanted to use to like to sleep out on our back deck. And, you know, we lived in a quiet little neighborhood. And that was fine, like our bedroom window was right on the deck. And so it's like I could, I would have my window open, I could hear them, I would set up
their little sleeping bags. But there was this one night about like one or two in the morning where I woke up, and I heard them talking out on the deck. And so I get up and I go to the back door and I'm about to walk out. And I realized that they're all looking up at the sky. And so I look up, and it is just like we stars like I've never seen, it was like the Milky Way just like descended on our corner. And it was like the sort of looks like something out of like a Van Gogh painting. Like
it was just incredible. And it was like my eldest daughter had woken up and had seen it, she woke up the other two. And they were all just laying there looking up at it. And I remember one of them saying to the other, I can't believe we always sleep
through this. And in a lot of ways, I feel like that's almost the posture that I've tried to take, whether it is with my children, or it is with a community of, you know, other beliefs or it is, you know, out in the mountains here or, you know, moving through our lives, whatever else, like what have we been through? And what does it look like to begin to wake up to everything that's already right there? If you don't have it sorted into boxes about what's God's and what's not.
Yeah, that's so good. Because often I think, you know, we've grown up in like, we need these mountaintop experiences, this mountain top worship experience, or me, you know, living in in Jordan, going down to Wadi ROM in the middle of the desert and seeing the stars like a I could travel halfway around the world, so I could look at the stars and and be in awe of what God has created. And these mountaintop experiences are, are good, and
he hold on to it. But it's that that moment when your daughter says I can't believe now we we've slept through this, that we remember that the every day and the ordinary is beauty. And there's beautiful things there too. That is not just the mountaintop experience that we have to have.
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that that's one of those things even that was really helpful for me that came up in what like Barbara brown Taylor would call like solar Christianity, where everything exists, and like the bright light of certainty and narratives of victory and answered prayers, right and even a lot of formulas for life and how you move through your life.
Being able to embrace and understand and see the beauty and more of those lunar moments, even within our faith to understand that that just as everything in the world needs a winter seasons and needs night and needs rest, like an hibernation even like that. Those are all sacred moments and just because it's not all like rah rah Jesus all the time doesn't mean you're broken. Yeah,
Amen. You know, one of the things especially in in this like in an evolving faith conversation you have in your book, The deconstructive shun conversation that I know, you've all been faith is better verbiage for you. But I don't think that many people talk about reclaiming repentance like you do, right and your book as a practice. Why? Why did you include reclaiming repentance as a practice for deconstruction and involving faith? That
is one that I have chased around a lot, because it's so waited for so many of us and yet it has been such a key part of my own experience of healing and an understanding. And I think, I think that's maybe some of it, like I remember, there's some, like, maybe it's like, some stubborn little part of me, that is like, still wants to hang on to things that have mattered, right? And so it's like, I'm not ready to cede the language, I'm not ready to give up on the thing just
yet. And for me, I think the the invitation that I saw in repentance is not a burden. And I think that that's even some of the reframing of it, I think, especially for those of us who have had notions like, you know, even big scary words like sin, or repentance, almost weaponized against us that they've been used to gaslight and control and manipulate, to then be able to be like, but what is what's the thing underneath the thing, or what's the invitation that maybe
is there that I'm missing. And so for me, I think that the reason why I wanted to make some room for reclaiming repentance was to let yourself admit that you are changing. And to let yourself admit that there is some changing that happens and your life will change as a result. And that is not anything to be ashamed of that is not anything to act like it is something that's broken or wrong about you, that is just being a person who's paying attention to
the Spirit. And so when you are confronted with new information, or with your own wrongness, or places where you messed up, or you fully understand the systems that you were a part of the cause harm, or you understand that this theology or this belief you had caused, you know, damage to you or to someone else who you are in relationship with
or not. I think that that invitation of repentance of turning away, and then turning towards something that is that is waiting for you on the other side of that is actually really hilly. And that's oftentimes when you begin to live into what you're hoping for, where you begin to name and say, well, if it's not this, and maybe maybe sometimes you were a part of systems or things that you didn't fully understand, and you just kind of went along with it. Because it's how you grew up.
And whatever else we could do that all day, there's a million reasons why we land where we landed. But at the end of the day, I remember really being very convicted, because Austin Channing Brown wrote an incredible book, called, I'm still here, but in the book, she talks about how many times, especially after she would speak at a church that was like
predominantly white. And people would come up to her and want to like, repent or confess their racism or things that they had done, or, you know, whatever else. First of all, don't do that. Second of all. Second of all, the question that she would ask them is, so what are you going to do differently? And I think that's a really beautiful invitation. First of all, it's not her burden to carry it places that back on the person who's looking for absolution.
And I think that that sometimes is the invitation in the wilderness when you've encountered those moments of repentance, and you encounter those moments of, of wanting to change or fully understanding maybe something you didn't before. You can either lose yourself in shame, and and guilt and, and hide, or you can say, what what am I going to do
differently now. And that to me, I think is why I wanted to have something about that in the book because that's something that you do face in the wilderness. It's it's something that you do face when you are in a deconstruction kind of experience of realizing that you failed or that you misunderstood some things or you are part of
things that cause harm. And we need to have a path for grappling with that we need to have a path for changing our mind we need to have a path and normalizing of shifting and and then of living into something better and something different that question What are you going to do now? That's that's, I think, a question from the Holy Spirit actually,
yeah, that it's so helpful to reframe repentance like that, because it is, you know, metanoia and that in the Greek means to have a paradigm shift to have a mind change. Alan Hurst says to have your mind blown like that. As and, you know, he talks through the you curve of unlearning having your paradigm shift and then relearning new practices going towards something new. And I think that's really helpful that now it's not just a shame based.
I'm sorry, I did something bad If I promise I won't do it again. But it's actually relearning new practices and new ways and doing something different this time. And I think that's going to be helpful for us in the, in the wilderness that what we're doing is for repentance.
That's what it is your earlier question about, like protecting our culture or moment versus not? Maybe that's even part of it. Right? I think that metanoia that changing of a mind that leads to the changing of a life? Like that's, that's the invitation even that's waiting for us there? Yes.
Very, very, very much so very much. So. One of the things that you you talk about in your book is is peacemaking that we're going to be active in the wilderness and active for for peacemaking, what are the practices in that for you?
This is one of the ones I'm worst at, I'll just like preface. This is the one where I have like I am, this is like a daily, a daily thing for me, it is not an area where I've arrived. And I don't know if that's because, like, one part, this socialization of being a woman in the church, where, you know, let alone being Canadian, right. And like just having this high value on like, you know, politeness and kindness of being fine, you know, all the time.
But then even this other element of like, if you do the Enneagram, but like, I'm an I'm what's called like an Enneagram nine, which basically means, like, pretty much every major sin and regret in my life traces its way back to me wanting to avoid conflict. And spoiler alert for you, that's not the way of peace. And so this has been one of those ones that is very much an active thing for me, of learning that peacekeeping is not the same
thing as peacemaking. And that by its very nature, peacemaking will sometimes be disruptive, that it will be something that means that that has that invitation to it. And I've even looked at what even we've experienced within the church, I would say, particularly maybe in the last 10 years or so, where there has been this dynamic of that almost feels apocalyptic. And when I use that word, Apocalypse, I mean it in more that traditional, like Greek sense, like it means an
unveiling, right? That that there's been a revelation here. And so in a lot of ways, it has felt like all the things that we used to like kind of tacitly or politely pretend we're there, because it's suited, you know, certain power narratives and structures for us not to acknowledge them. They've all been dragged kicking and screaming into the light, right.
And now, now, there's no going back, like everything, everything is out there has been in Apocalypse, you're not wrong, pandemic politics, all of it. We're in the midst of an apocalypse. And I think that that's maybe where the invitation for peacemaking really began to take on. I don't like muscle and scaffolding and like structure to me, to be able to say, it's not a matter of pretending to be fine. And it's not an absence of conflict, it actually is going to look like
embodied justice. And Dr. Cornel West calls it being like love in public. This is a way to actually embody that, which means getting really comfortable, really comfortable with discomfort, and means making your peace with being misunderstood and misrepresented. It means making mistakes, it means trying and getting it wrong. It means
having hard conversations. It can mean you know, going into areas or places where we don't fully understand it taking the posture of a learner instead of an expert for the first time in our lives. I mean, God, there's nothing we all have loved more than acting like an expert in our own lives. And in every single thing that comes across our desk, which maybe comes back to that thing of saying, Okay, I'm going, I'm going to be able
to be a learner in this. So I think that sometimes the embodiment of of peacemaking for me, has actually often been in an invitation to engagement. That right when I am most, and again, everybody's different, right? Some people are born with very good ability to engage in conflict and a very good ability to navigate those things. That is not my story. So for someone like me being able to say, what does engagement look like? What does it look like to keep showing up? What does it look
like? What is what is peacemaking look like here, instead of just maintaining the status quo, which turns out doesn't actually benefit anybody. And I think that those are invitations, I'll be probably grappling with forever. This I don't think it's something that's ever going to come like super easy to me. But I think that's an invitation that we almost encounter in the wilderness is to say, what does it look like to be a peacemaker instead of just a peacekeeper? What does it look like to not
settle for being fine? And just everybody kind of being a little more polite. Granted, I'm Canadian, I would settle for everybody being a little more polite. But there is still an invitation to good conflict and beautiful disagreement and actually journeying with each other or In spaces, that maybe don't feel quite as at home for us yet, while we're learning some of those things,
when we're first get introduced to the wilderness, that we're like, oh, this is not comfortable, is isolating alone. Sometimes our peacemaking has a very hard edge to it that is not really helpful. And the spaces that were were leaving as we're going towards new spaces and new things, what is the ways to tell truth and speak truth and be peacemakers in a way that shows love and care, but actually helps people process? What's going on? Is there a way to do
that? Or do we just ignore other people and go through our own journey?
While you definitely do things on a date? Well, you know, it's an it's a hard thing, because everybody's situation that they're in is so unique, and so different. And so the things that I would say, maybe wouldn't be as applicable to someone who's maybe in a very intense situation. I think, for me, some of the things that have been really, really helpful in the midst of all of that is, first of all, stop acting, like speaking truth is not loving.
Like, it just, it's, it's, I think that's even a dichotomy that I had within some of the churches, or faith spaces, where I found myself was like, Well, I got to speak the truth in love, you know, which was code for, I'm gonna just say, whatever the heck I want. And you could just, you know, whatever. That's not
love. And I think one of the things that has been really, and I say this, because I got wrong so often, so don't don't misunderstand me, I think one of the things that really profoundly reset me in this area, was understanding that just because I'm so sure I'm right, doesn't mean that I get a pass on the fruit of the Spirit.
It doesn't mean that somehow I got a hall pass, or, or an exemption from having to or wanting to embody things like love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness, and faithfulness and gentleness, let alone like self control. And so realizing that being more right, or thinking I'm more right, is not an exemption to discipleship. And, and, and let alone an exemption from how I want to move through the world, and what I hope for in the world for each other.
That was a reset for me, of allowing there to be room for how that's going to be embodied for understanding even moments when you do release, you know, what, not every relationship is forever, not every community can be saved, not everything. But even having that peace. And that, that patience, and that release and kindness, for those inevitabilities of trying to, you know, kind of move through
with positive intent. And with, you know, an open hand, I think one of the things now, maybe you know, that I've been navigating this for a number of years, something that has become more important to me over the years is is normalizing letting people change, and normalizing and almost creating on ramps for that, that instead of that, I think one of the things that we oftentimes run into, when we very first begin to kind of like evolve or transform or change your mind, or we'll wrestle with
things wherever else is, we can be almost angry at everybody who's not where we are yet. And, and having room for people's process and transformation and change just the way that you need it. Process and transformation and change. That's really holy work, to hold room for the adaptation and the evolution and the change of
people. And to continue to have open doors and build on ramps, so that when people are ready to cross that threshold, or when they get thrown over it Body and Soul whether they liked it or not, because of whatever has happened in their life, we all know and have had those experiences. We didn't choose it, it shows us and we wound up here whether we liked it or not. And we fought it screaming and
crying the whole way. But there is this sense of like who would be the person they would want to turn to who would be their sanctuary that they wouldn't feel that sense of judgment and well, why are you here yet? And why haven't you gotten this figured out yet? Or or I don't have room for your questions or whatever else. I think those would be helpful things for me of how do I want to move through those space? How do I keep those
doors open? Keep an open hand and normalize and make room for other people's healing and wholeness and transformation journeys to not all the time. There's a lot of places where it's toxic or abusive or it's wrong and you just you need to, you know, tap out and God bless them and let someone else pick up that baton. But if you're able to that that's been helpful.
You could answer this or not, but how do we do that in a marriage relationship where one person is, is moving A new direction, transforming and changing. And the partner is not there yet. And how do you give room and space for one another? In a marriage where you're you may be going in two different directions. Yeah,
I think that's a very real thing. And I think it's hard, especially in our circles, because oftentimes, we are kind of fed this narrative of marriage, it's like, you've got to be in 100% agreement on everything. Which is cute. Yeah. She says, from 23 years of marriage, but there's this. So that was our story. That was our story. For sure. I was the first one to deconstruct, and mine was
messy. And it had huge implications for our lives, it had huge implications for my husband's vocation, and work, had huge, you know, implications on our location, and where we lived, and how we were raising our kids and how we were moving to and it was, it was hard. And I think too, like, there's even this sense, you feel this sense of like guilt and shame, but yet you can't undo it or stop it.
And it's what's happening. And I think one of the things that my husband did, during those years, and he has since gone through his own experience of an evolving faith is just his was much more methodical and and slower, and maybe a bit more thoughtful than my, you know, rage, room stuff. That there was this sense, I remember really early in that time, where he just kind of said, we didn't marry ministry, and we didn't marry these opinions, we married
each other. And, and even this posture he took was, he just wasn't afraid. And I think that sometimes that's something that creeps into our marriages, or our or our closest relationships, when one person is changing, and oftentimes changing very rapidly. And in a very scary way, you feel like your values are coming apart, you feel like the, the foundation that you built this thing on is disappearing. And so for us, it was really key to say, well, what is the foundation? If it couldn't be
this? And it can't be this? What is the thing that is going to remain for us? And how do we practice loving each other and having room for each other and not being afraid for one another. And of course, again, not every marriage survive, some people need to navigate that better than others, I have found that the ones who usually do are able to find the thing that is pulling them together more than complete agreement on every single opinion on how they move
through those things. And having a even a sense of like, laughter and fun and goodness, looking for ways that they are still connecting, looking for ways where they can not be afraid, and they can can have those, that level of acceptance and normalization with one another. I think that Brian and I have had this experience over all our years of marriage of both of us feeling like we were married to very different people. Over that
time. Like in 23 years of marriage, we've been married to like 10 Different people each. And I think the thing that ended up helping us whether it was faith deconstruction or you know, other challenges that can happen in any long term relationship is choosing each other, over and over again. In every new evolution, and every
new version of you. Every new thing that you've learned every new thing that has changed who you are, whether it's shared experiences, and stories are separate things or things from the past that come back or whatever else was it looked like to keep choosing each other over and over again. And that's it served us well. But of course, like I said, that will be everybody's story.
Sarah, your book Field Notes for the wilderness. I told you before we started recording, I think this may be my favorite book I've ever read. And it is. It is true. It is my favorite book. I think it's supplanted and the mots traveling Marcy's. Oh. But she's still up there. So I still love and it's so good. But what would you hope your readers would get out of this? What do you want them to, to come away with?
Then? There's, there's a lot of aspects of this, that I would hope for people to, to, you know, carry forward maybe with them I think, you know, there's there's a lot of aspects of this work in this this area that have emerged for me of being really important things like being able to name what you're for, and not just what you're against, you know, understanding even the fact that this is a very normal stage of spiritual formation and, and oftentimes to me, I feel like
it's it's an altar for intimacy with God in ways that you never really fully, you know, kind of understood. There's things like even reclaiming joy, and you know, and, you know, things that we were always told were kind of silly like happiness and goodness. And learning to love the world again, in particular, and mean, still, there's all those things that are there. But I think ultimately the benediction that I really want is for people to to know that
they're not alone. And to begin to notice and understand and see the invitations of the Spirit that exist, not in spite of where they have landed, because of their questions or doubts or their experiences, but precisely because of it. And that the love of God is the thing that is carrying you and holding you and is the abundant life that you'd be looking for all along that it's already here. I think it's
hard to be a person. And I think it's hard to move through the world and all of us carry our own wounds and bruises and hurts along the way. And so finding a way to be able to be even just one voice in their ear that saying, I'm not afraid, and you are very loved. And you're on the right track. I think that that's if that's all that people get from him, and I'm good.
That's good. And you know, there's, you're, you're not alone. And there's a lot of people that are going to be at a place where you've landed, they've gotten to that can be community for you. Even though a lot of times you have to leave one community, which is really painful, and difficult. And that process is not easy. And but there is community out there that people will find each other love will prevail, and to you know, we can be that for one
another as well. And so if you find yourself out there in the wilderness, wandering around, I know that there are people out there as well, that wants to find you and be with you and journey with you as you move forward. And so I just really want people to find that community. And it doesn't have to look like the community that you came from, it could look totally different. And and be in
different spaces. And it could, yeah, there's lots of new imagination for what community looks like, as we journey together moving forward.
And that's a good word. That's, That'll preach Tasha, that
will preach. Sarah, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give? Oh,
that's a good question. Just like remembering 21 year old Sarah, I, there's a million things that I would want. Want to say, I think, I think one of the things that maybe I would have needed to hear and took me a long time to grow into knowing is that the way that I am, is not less, because it's not what was important. I know, that makes
sense. But like, I felt like I kind of came up in culture and in spaces and faith spaces, in particular, the value of one particular set of gifts, or one particular way of being in the
world. I'm an introvert. You know, for instance, and so there was like a huge, you know, emphasis on being like super extroverted for Jesus, you know, or, you know, whatever kind of calling, it's, like, you know, the most important that you could be as pastor or missionary and the idea of, you know, other things was just not kind of
there. So there was always this sense of like, oh, I have have to fundamentally change who I am, in order to walk out God's goodness in my life, or in order to be my actual, you know, whatever, reach my full potential, whatever. And there's this instead, I think that invitation of like, no, just as you are, and just how you move through the world is actually the thing that is going to be what's healed. And I think that that's something that maybe you
don't hear a whole lot. You know, I think especially at that 20 or 21 year old stage, you're just almost kind of like, trying to fit someone else's best case scenario for your life. Like is somehow able to, like be a printer copy. And instead to say like, no, the things that make you who you are your culture, your story, your family, your things that you love, the things that make your freak flag fly at full mask, like, whatever it is, like, that's good and right.
And, you know, in a lot of ways, I feel more like the kid I used to be nailed than I did in my 20s and 30s and early 40s. And so yeah, I think sometimes that's the healer, you're reclaiming, we almost get is to kind of realize like, yeah, you know, what, how you were made, how you are how you are in the world. That's, that's okay.
Good, Sarah, anything you've been reading or watching lately? You could recommend? Oh,
my gosh, so many things. So first of all, watching a ton of hockey right now. All right, well not surprise you at all. And so there's that one, obviously a ton of Pocky. But I have actually just finished reading black liturgies by Col. Arthur Riley. I don't know if you've come across it yet. But she does this incident which she started off as an Instagram account. And it is, I struggle to think of anyone who is writing at the level that Cole is writing at, like just what she does with
prose is truly remarkable. And I in her first book It was called this hair flash. I remember this one line where she she said, on the day, on the day the world broke, God became a seamstress. And she was talking about like in the Garden of Eden how God like made clothes for Adam and Eve. And just that notion of like God is seamstress like just again, what she does with language what she does with like beauty and with the interior life, I think especially for the black experience. It's just
remarkable. And so if people have not started following Cole yet or read her books yet both of them are incredible, but the other one it just came out. And then the other one I just finished with Kate bowlers have a beautiful, terrible day. And so Kate is a tremendous teacher and writer and scholar and all that all the things, but she writes these books that are like almost like blessings or benedictions for the big a person. And this one call is called have a beautiful,
terrible day. And I loved it. I thought it was great. So those are those are two that I would recommend. Those
are two amazing recommendations. Really, really good. Well, I would highly recommend people go out and get Field Notes for the wilderness. I will, I will shout it from the rooftops like Oh, thank you, Sara's book. Like, I if there is one book that you should get that I recommend, it should be Sarah's book. Just go do it. Oh, nice words. Thank you get it. Sarah, thank you for this conversation. It was it was beautiful. It was open. It was
loving. It was I think shepherding for people to move through new spaces when they find themselves in the wilderness that you have said, I have been there. I've done this. There are some things that have helped me. And so I think for for your book, I think there are some practices that people will take and say this one's for me. And I know that you say disregard the ones that aren't and I think because we're all individuals going through
different journeys. There will be something for everybody here. And so, Sarah, man, it was such a pleasure to talk to you. I wish I had another 234 hours that week. But we talked so thank you so much for this.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you