Ep. 144 Grace Hamman - Jesus Through Medieval Eyes

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social media. Previous guests on the show have included Jessica Hooton Wilson, Karen swallow prior and Jen Pollock Michel, you can go back and listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Grace Hammond Grace Herrmann is the author of Jesus through medieval eyes beholding Christ with the artists mystics and theologians of the Middle Ages, and independent scholar of late medieval poetry and

contemplative writing. Her work has been published by academic and popular outlets, including plough quarterly, and the Journal of medieval and early modern studies. Grace hosts a podcast called old books with grace which celebrates the beauty and joy found in reading the literature and theology of the past. She lives near Denver, Colorado, with her husband and three children, Grace and I get into a really great conversation around the medieval period and

how Jesus was viewed. It's amazing to me how illuminating it is to read thinkers of the past, and how it shapes my perspective in ways that are unexpected, and it helps me encountered Jesus in new ways. We talk about people at Thomas Aquinas and Julian of Norwich, and we look at Jesus as a night as judge as mother and more. Join us as we gain a fresh perspective, by encountering the past and looking at Jesus through medieval eyes. Here's my conversation with Grace Hamon.

Grace, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm really excited to have you on.

period? And what is it about the medieval era that's that makes you come alive?

literature. And I started reading the poetry and the contemplative writing of the Middle Ages in Middle English. And I was shocked, because I began to realize that Jesus was everywhere in these. And now keep in mind, too, that this was during my master's degree when I was at a giant State University in a very, very secular English Department. And yet, Jesus was everywhere, you could not get away from him reading these, you had to take them and their love and their passion for Christ

very seriously. And it was such a breath of fresh air, and I had made so many assumptions about them. And so then I had to re examine all of that and go, What am I missing? Why did I feel that way? And I just got deeper and deeper into them and started paying attention to their art and their theology beyond the beautiful poetry that I was reading. And it was such a gift to me. And that's, that's how I got obsessed with the Middle Ages.

in different ways. And so the the first thing to do as you are approaching these texts and voices of the past, is to approach them with a spirit of openness and willingness to listen, just like so my husband always makes fun of me, because I call them my friends, which is very nerdy, but these are my medieval friends. And but it's like you do when you're getting to know someone in a friendship, you're not, you're keeping your heart open to them, you're not jumping to conclusions about

them. I mean, it would be a really bummer thing and torpedo any sense of relationship you have with somebody, if you approach all people, especially somebody you're trying to understand with a sense of suspicion, and it's the same with the books of the past and with the art of the past, and the people of the past. And so beginning to cultivate a spirit of humility of okay, I may be wrong, I may have made some assumptions about things that I

didn't actually know. And you might know something that I don't know, and I'm ready to listen, and to and then and then it will eventually turn back the other way where I to know things that you don't know. And so it becomes reading becomes more like a dialogue, and more transformative in your own heart when you can approach the writers of the past in this way. And that's true, whether you're reading medieval era texts, or early church texts, or 19th century texts, that's all it's

the same process. And so it's a real gift, when you can begin to cultivate that openness.

and, and to get it right. As you were looking through the dialectic, the Summa, as you know, Thomas Aquinas was writing, what struck you with that what struck you with the way that he was dialoguing with with people and with the past and with with the illogical answers?

beginning with a question. And then with all these, his contemporaries, and with people in the church before his own time, he is basically having a very intense conversation with them. Where he's his answer to the question he doesn't even give you until he's given other answers that have been answered in the past that he doesn't necessarily agree with. But there's some of the best

alternates to his own answer. So it'd be like imagine today, a politician who's who tells you all of their opponents and all of their like, past, you know, people they're arguing with whether they're friends or not their best and greatest points before actually telling you what he thinks. So there's this really high level of honesty and of willingness to wrestle, willingness to still disagree

there. He's disagreeing with them, but he's not, you know, giving himself this sort of cheat points in order to make his own point, and make sure you agree with him. And so that's the process of dialectic. And it also means that the conversation can be ongoing. So if you're framing all of your theological inquiry, as a question that is still open for other people to answer, then the conversation can continue long after you're

dead. And that's what has happened with Thomas Aquinas, this theologies that people are still debating some of these points hundreds and hundreds of years later. And so it's this really wonderful model of humility, but also not just saying, you know, not just being content with whatever works, but diving into truth together.

you the right answer. So how does that then start to help shape and form our understanding of what it looks like to engage in a church, body and community today? So

straightforward. And Jesus didn't give his disciples that in the Gospels. And Thomas Aquinas doesn't give his folks that where he's, he gives, He writes answers, but you have this long process of of wrestling. And so I think that if we as a church can become more comfortable with questions, both asking them and just sitting with them, and letting things be complicated. I think that would be a great gift for

our hearts. And for the ways in which we have conversations with people who don't believe the same things we do. It becomes more Invitational to other people. And there's a space and a room there, that if somebody who is asking questions, and who wants to know more, but isn't ready to come to the same conclusions as you, it invites them into a conversation and a journey together in a way that when you have the answers immediately, that doesn't exist? Yeah.

the Writing. And he's like, I what I just experienced, like, I don't have an answer for I can't actually put it down. What What was that experience for him? And why did he decide to put his writing aside.

that's what is. So something that is really beautiful and wonderful about Thomas's work is that he really is the premier Western theologian of the Middle Ages, not counting Augustine, who's sort of on the precipice of the middle ages and, and patristic theology. But Thomas is incredible. And he's he wrote and wrote and wrote, he was producing multiple, the equivalent of multiple novels a month of like, extremely high quality theology. I mean, it's

crazy. It's a crazy, and then for him, at the, towards the end of his life, and he wasn't that old, he was, I think, in his 50s. To go, yeah, all of this can't even be in to cover it. And, and I so in him, I see this real response of humility. And also, we see this sort of paradox of like the theological pursuit, basically, which is that you can write and write and write and produce, and it can be glorious, and beautiful and influential and true in a lot of

ways. And it still will fail to capture the majesty of the Godhead and the truth of the Godhead. And so I really appreciate that, from such an eminent theologian,

And, you know, in my head, my modernity and modernity, we like to know that we have all the right answers, and we get the truth from inside of ourselves. And it feels like and here, Jesus is the one that is encountering them, that that's the thing that really propels them forward. And it's that, I mean, one of the ones was Julian of Norwich. And she, you know, as she had her, her showings, she became this an anchor,

right? Which a little sell on church, and I think that was the most shocking and appalling thing that I've heard, like, I was like, Oh, my gosh, are you serious? Like she just lived a little sell on the, at the church? Yep. That's, I don't know. I was like, Oh, that part? That's crazy. That's like, how do you do that?

So Julian, people would travel to visit her and to seek out her spiritual guidance and her prayers because she was by being in literally in the fabric of the church embedded in the church, she was intimately a part of every aspect of parish life. And so she was there at every single liturgy, every single service. And, and her job, her vocation, was to pray

for everybody in that space. So she was so intimately connected to space like you're saying with this embodiment stuff, and it was so it goes so much beyond the the mind and being able to make sense of things because really being an anchor, right just doesn't make sense to us. And I don't think it would or well?

As you were reading this, what really struck you with Julian of Norwich, when you were have been reading her and walking in her shoes? Um,

love. So Julian is truly the most profound theologian I've read on the closeness and the character of Christ. And so you mentioned that Jesus as a mother chapter, and this is one of those chapters that at first, people feel very strangely about it sounds so odd, and it sounds almost new age or something like

that. And then you begin to realize that, okay, these monastic writers who were first picking up on this language, in the gospels, and in wisdom literature, were fascinated by what Compassionate Leadership looked like, what, in a world where it was, you know, a heavily patriarchal society. It wasn't like the honored women more than we do today or

anything like that. But, but masculine authority was viewed as so more like a judge right or more in power, and, and the disciplinarian of relationships. So that that was how masculine authority was commonly understood. And so when they found this mothering imagery, in the gospels, and in parts of Wisdom literature, they jumped on it because they were like, This is an example of how how we can think about compassion. And somebody like Julian, Julian picks up this theme and being

born again. And in Jesus doing things like washing people's feet, and caring for their bodily health, things that had long been associated with motherhood. And she begins to think about it in terms of how close Christ is to us, and how much he loves us on a personal, deep and intimate level, how, how a nursing mother is caring for her child, or how a mother laborers, and in the Middle Ages, you know, labor and pregnancy were much, much more lethal and dangerous than they

are now. And so, this comparison between Christ on the cross laboring for our salvation was super meaningful to people, putting, putting his life out there for our lives to to bring us to life. And so she writes just the most beautiful theology of the intimacy of Jesus that is signified by a mother and a nursing needy child. And in that has meant so much to me on a personal level that the chapter can't even really begin to express. So.

too, you know. And so I think that's one really important and beautiful thing, where how we are able to follow Jesus and see our love is similar to his is expanded by this vision. And then the other thing is that, for me, it has changed how I approach Christ in confession. And so not even like sacramental confession, but just confession as okay, I've, I've screwed up, I've really I did, I did something or failed to do something that I shouldn't have

done. And this image, Julian really associates it closely with how God how Jesus feels about us after we fail. Where the language of motherhood allows her to express that, like, with a mother's little children, she's going to want to be there even closer, when you fall in when you are in pain when you are hurt. And when you

have hurt other people. Christ's maternal love allows us to really concretize the idea that, Oh, God already loves you, He is closer than your own skin, Jesus has carried you in his body and you are more beloved to him than you can even begin to imagine just as a little, little baby is so beloved to her mother. And so that what metaphors like that can do for us is they give us a picture that is hard to express

literally. But we all because we all have mothers, regardless of whether your mother or not, we all know that the feeling of need for your mother to be close from when we were kids. And if you had a mother who was, you know, a loving mother, you know, the feel of being held tight

after you fallen. And that that is the feeling after we've fallen in sin or in our failures is a huge deal, and shapes the whole of how we can confess our sins, and can face what we've done and not hide from what we've done.

encounter the fear of God? And to know that there has this this judge as well? That Jesus Yes, is is mother Jesus is also judge.

baggage around this image. And so I came to this and started paying attention. It's now the the image and theology of Jesus as a judge was everywhere in the Middle Ages, one of the most popular representations of Christ in art was Christ as eternal King or Christ on Judgment Day. And it was in all the churches and in you know, private devotional materials, it was all over the place. So it was something they were

reckoning with. And I began to think about the weirdness that we are called to a fear of God that the Scriptures tell us that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. And, and then you begin to notice the places where the even the disciples are fearful of Jesus and in some of them. So for instance, him calming storm knees, do not be afraid. But then in other So after Jesus raises the daughter, and they're afraid, and nobody says anything, and it's just a different kind of fear of fear

of, of power. And and so I began to think about how fear is actually a necessary attribute for us as humans. Now, if you're setting God out of the equation for a moment, it's a bad thing when people are not afraid enough of certain things. So for instance, to be callous, and sort of nonchalant about the ocean, it is, is a mistake, a

huge mistake. Or about if you have a terminal illness, or if you are with a wild animal, if you're just sort of cavalier about your bear encounter, that was going to be a problem for

you. And I began to think about how fear is a gift for us in recognizing our human limitations, as we face something that is much bigger, much more powerful, and, and often super beautiful in its power and glory, and how that's even different for us than our respect, though, we often try to tame the biblical language by saying, No, it means our respect, but it is very close to that. But there's also something else there's that moment of I'm tiny and fragile. And I need to

be aware of that. And that's important. And so, in these, in these images of Jesus as a judge, I don't think that we're called to be terrified of him, as you know, in this sort of frenzy of self loathing, or that, oh, my gosh, he's, he hates me, or any of those, some of the ways that this imagery can go easily, but that we are called to remember, Oh, I am so tiny and small. And he is so big, and I don't fully understand him. And the goodness of remembering who I am in that.

And then at the same time, that I am held beloved, and closer than the skin, I mean, this is why these images work together, is because they're all reminding us of different facets that are really hard for us to hold at once. And it's so hard to hold those things all at once. Yeah,

mind. And if you kind of have this movement of beauty and wonder and strangeness that is sort of, you know, rippling the waters, so to speak, so that you don't get stuck in the image that you gravitate towards the most. I think that's one really

helpful way. Another thing is that I think the church, the church should embrace the power of figurative language more and become more comfortable with storytelling and parables like how Jesus told and we, we, like you said, we love our literality, we love our here are the three bullet points that you take home with you from from Sunday service, you know, and that's good, too, there's a place for that, that I really

believe in. But then we tend to ignore kind of all the weird other stuff, like the storytelling that's open ended, or the lives of the saints that are that are confusing, because some of it they seem to have really right and some of it they they seem to be way off base.

And so the more we can lean into those tensions, and I think and the the storytelling of that, I think the more it will help us to see fuller pictures of who we are and who God is, and, and this shapes of different people's lives than our own. Let's

think that is? Why do you think somebody from a more modern era harkens to the things of the past, and it actually gives us a huge impact and, and makes us think, in ways that we're not used to?

the Lord of the Rings. I think that I they both spoke at that, especially talking to I think he spoke to and to human experience beyond our own time and place. So you read some books, and you go, Oh, this was definitely just written straight out of our present moment for people in our present moment. There's not there's not that much feeling behind it or before it necessarily. And those books can

be really fun to read. But somebody like Tolkien, what he was doing is that he was looking at the past, as, as it speaks to us now and then putting it into fiction in ways that even somebody who had no idea what Beowulf was, which was one of Tolkien's most influential poems, in Old English that he, you know, adored and taught about, even if they never had encountered or read Beowulf, the some of the themes of Beowulf are present in Lord of the Rings and giving them to an audience

in a sort of transformed way. And bringing in some of those elements of the past and especially things that speak to our sort of universal human experience, rather than just being exclusively 20th century post World War Two, you know, we're all worried about X y&z Whenever, like, so it has this sense of universality, because it's drawing together ninth century epic, and 20th century genre writing and so it's, it's, it really gives us such a gift.

Because even though it's fiction written in the 20th century, it draws on all these themes that are 1000s of years old, and you and I think that's why I think we sense that as we read, and we feel the depth there, and it feels different to us.

tale, basically. But for people back then that was a real social class that was an actual group of people who were wealthy, who were the landowners and to sometimes did really great things for the people they were in charge of, and sometimes were really corrupt and violent. And so, it is really interesting, portraying Jesus as a specific

figure in a social class. And what I, how I kind of was able to see the beauty of it is in this poem called piers Plowman, which is written in the 14th century by this poet named William Langland. And he, the last bit of piers Plowman, which is a very, very long epic poem, sets the events of Holy Week into an allegory of knighthood. And so Jesus as a knight is

jousting with the enemy. And what makes it even weirder and more interesting is that Jesus is a knight but he's dressed as a ploughman, and so languid is just taking all of these social stereotypes and of course Plowman. We're peasantry and I mean, they were a night in in the middle ages would have never wanted to dress as a fireman because they were a much lower social class and much less

powerful than knights were. And so langeland is actually writing a picture of the humility of the Incarnation in the in the universality of the Incarnation in this night turns Plowman who's still jousting and fighting our enemies. And it is just, he calls him the Barefoot Knight. And and then in another Middle English poem, we see Jesus saying, I am Jesus come to fight without and shield or

spear. And that gives that same idea of this image of courage and fortitude, and endurance and bravery, but it doesn't come in the forms we expect it to. And I really, really love that.

what we had seen before. And so it just is so true to the to the character of Christ. And in a way that is encouraging.

period. So I have a chapter called Jesus, the good medieval Christian, where Jesus is written as if he's in their own culture and in you know, just fitting seamlessly, right in with the kinds of ideals and beliefs that the medieval church held. And for us, we read that and go, that seems obviously wrong. But we're doing the same thing. And just the that is such a genuinely important exercise and something that I have thought about a lot since since doing that research and writing.

to engage in that. Yes. So how can we engage in a place of saying, we may not have all the right answers and we can learn from the people of the past and we need to move into a new direction. Shinsen not just put Jesus, or like, put a box on Jesus said, This is who he is.

the complexities of this. And that sounds so weird and basic, but I'm thinking of, you know, listening to people who are really different than you and who believe different things than you. And even when you don't like what they're saying, and just trying to give it space enough to challenge what you believe. And I think sometimes we're really afraid to do that, because we're afraid it's going to challenge our faith or challenge our orthodoxy or, or something like whatever we're

holding on too tight. But if Jesus is saying, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, which he he is, we don't have to be afraid of truths, challenging us and showing us where we have been wrong, that there will be a graciousness in it for us that we won't, that won't be foreseen basically. And to keep reading the books of the past, I think is a huge part of that, because you just see these things that

they were so convinced of. And so you go, Okay, well, I'm, I have this X thing that I am just so convinced of, and I still have to be careful, I have to be I have to hold and this is where, you know, the judge comes back in where you're like, I'm just one little person. And that doesn't change, even though my culture might have discovered x. And we might be doing AI and we might be you know, more advanced

than any other bla bla bla. But what it boils down to is me in my body, in my mind, in my heart, I am just me and I'm small, and that's not a bad thing. That's a really good thing. The Lord made me that way. I don't need to be afraid of that. But I also then have to hold it and not, not get cocky.

And on the other end of the spectrum, like I wasn't doing something that felt immediately useful to the church. So I felt really guilty about that, too. And so seeing this, this is going to bring fruit that you don't know and you just have to keep, just keep following those weird things. And I think that's what I would say to myself don't have fear about that. The Lord has given you these these curiosities. That's

And these wonderful poems that are just absolutely charged with gratitude for creation, and I have been so delighted by them. I mean, you could just hear his delight and delight is contagious when you're reading someone who's delighted in what they are encountering. You're delighted, you know, and so, that's one thing, something that is way less serious and more Modern Day is that I, my husband and I have been watching only murders in the building on Hulu,

which has been a very light. I mean, it's not like it's about murders, obviously. But like it's murder mystery. And it has just been a really nice counterbalance. It's not like the most amazing show I've ever watched or anything like that. But a nice little counterbalance to some of the seriousness of daily life. So that's, that's a fun one. So you have a more serious one and a fun one.

as mother as night. As Judge, he could encounter me as, as all of these things, I really, really appreciated it and I hope that people go out, they read it, they get it and it gets them interested in reading more, more theologians and and, and war. People who have written literature in the medieval period so that they could have their their minds opened up and expanded, and we can start to learn from from our past, and we can move forward. How can people

go out and get your book? I'm sure it's available anywhere. But where would you like to point people to? And how can you how can people connect with you? Where would you like to point people to?

wild and it was thrilling. But yeah, you can you can get at any of those places. And then, as far as finding me online, I'm on Instagram at old books with Grace, I'm on what was formerly called Twitter, at Grace Hammond, PhD, and probably the most, the two more fun places to find what I'm up to is I have a substack newsletter that comes out once a month on different medieval and medieval adjacent and literature of the past topics. And it's called medieval

ish with Grace Hamon. And that's, that's one of my favorite things to do. And then I have a podcast called old books with grace. That is literally what the title says, I have different guests come on to talk about old books of me and it's really fun. So those are all the places. That's