Ep. 140 Naghmeh Panahi - Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse

enemy. And God was just saying, No, you're not going to profit also is my name. Following me as costly. It's not something that you get you use for your own benefit.

rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. Previous guests on the show have included Pam Arland, Beth paws and Todd Hunter. You could go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is not my Panahi born in Tehran in 1977 nakoma pinata he immigrated to the United States at the age of nine, and soon converted from

Islam to Christianity. In late 2001. After graduating from college, she returned to Iran to work as a businesswoman and missionary. There she witnessed and experienced the oppression and violence women are subjected to every day in the Middle East. And it was there that she also met her future husband, Saeed Abedini, with whom she led one of the largest house church movements in Iran. In 2005. due to persecution, she and Saeed moved to the United States, where their two children were

born. When Saeed visited Iran in 2012. To work on opening an orphanage, he was arrested for his involvement in the underground church and sentenced to eight years in a notorious prison. Knock my unceasingly advocated for sites release, appealing to President Barack Obama, Donald Trump, the US Congress, the United Nations and nearly every major news outlet over there, the three and a half years that Saeed wasn't present.

Yet, underneath the surface of her leadership and the Iranian house, church, or family life in America in the spotlight of her advocacy Nakama had been an abused wife and say Eudes imprisonment had further intensified his controlling and abusive behavior. It took the crisis and the aftermath of side's arrest for Nakama to finally recognize what had been happening to her and begin to

find healing. nochmals personal experience with domestic violence and the misuse of religion to reinforce abuse has given her a passion to advocate for women who are vulnerable to abuse and oppression because of religion. She is a speaker, a Bible teacher, and the co founder and executive director of Tahir on Nisa. Foundation, which serves women and children around the world impacted by domestic abuse and religious

motivated violence. So Nakama sits down and she shares her story with us a story that is necessary to hear although it is difficult, abuse by pastors, by church leaders, backlash from the Christian community Nakama shares how she was able to hold on to Christ, recover her identity as a child of God, lead a house church movement and see Muslims from around the world have dreams and visions of Jesus, start to follow Jesus and make him Lord. This is a conversation that you don't want

to miss. So join us as we discover the goodness of God in the midst of humans corrupting His goodness, and see how God reveals Himself to the broken and desperate. This is my conversation with nakoma. Panahi. nakoma, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.

difficult marriage. And coming out of that and actually standing within your identity with Christ is really fascinating that you could actually continue to do that as well. Wow. So there's a lot of things I'd love to get into. But let's start with your story. I'd love to just even growing up in Iran and coming to the United States and finding Jesus. Let's start there. And, and then we could just walk through your story, and then we could hit on a lot of those different topics. Yeah,

family. And my dad actually prided himself on our last name, which is Sharia Panahi, which means protector of Islamic law, which meant that our family heritage dated back to the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, and yeah, it came, we though I went through war, which, just seeing what's happening in the Middle East right now has pretty hard I remember hearing the sirens, I remember going to bought bomb shelters. And I remember as a little kid not comprehending why God was allowing so much death

and destruction. I guess as children, you don't really understand the politics of everything. Why country go to war? And that's actually started my journey of finding God or God finding me actually. Because we couldn't, me and my twin brother couldn't wrap our minds around seeing our fellow elementary students, friends who were playing with us the previous day, in the rubble the next day, and why was God allowing that? And so that started our journey of asking, really questioning

who God was. And the only way we knew was Islam. My dad really taught us how to pray and fast and all of that, what we ended up leaving Iran because of a really bad war with Iraq, which included chemical warfare. And little kids, little boys signing up to go to war and going through mines. And my parents, were really afraid that my brother would be part of that draft, or being brainwashed to join that. And so we came to

America as immigrants. And yep, that's where we found Christ, my brother had a vision of Jesus, who we had actually not heard anything about. What

God, who are you? Like, why are you allowing this? And he said, his name is Jesus. And he said, I saw Jesus and I just all I felt was love. And I know this is the way and all of this to say, Me, I was born right around the Islamic Revolution. So growing up in the Islamic Revolution world, you don't really hear much about Jesus, like that was the first time we even heard his name, all you hear about is Islam. And you know, and then the war with

Jihad and all of that. So we had limited knowledge of English, we had just come to America. So we found, actually, we were able to have some people that knew about Jesus, that we knew that explain to us who Jesus was. prayed with us. And then there was a swimming pool in the in that place, the, I guess, the neighborhood swimming pool that we were baptized in. Wow.

You've sight loss, your identity, you're gonna It's better that we go back to Iraq. And you guys die in a war because what's happened now basically he thought because we converted to Christianity we were going to have or something. So he said, What's happened to you now is worse than if you died in a war. And so he was really contemplating moving us

back to Iran, actually. And I remember my brother crying and saying, Well, I don't believe because my brother was going to sign up for the war, and on through the minds, because he was so like, brainwashed by Islam. So I remember my brothers saying, but I don't believe in that anymore. I don't want to go to war. And he's, you know, and so my dad, as he was preparing to move us back, had a brother that had found a job in Boise,

Idaho. And he said, you know, just Idaho seems in the middle of somewhere in the middle of nowhere, and you're their only nine, they're gonna forget about Jesus, just give Idaho try. And so in a funny way, they were running away from California, which that's where we were at, we were in San Jose, they were coming to Idaho to get away from the Christians in a way so.

brother pray together. And there was a lot of anger, a lot of pressure from age nine until 16. At age 16, I again, I snuck off to church, but they knew and I didn't realize that my both my parents at that time. I didn't know I didn't realize until after college, that at 16, they have actually started reading the Bible that they had taken away from us. My mom had gone through a very bad depression, culture shock. And the Bible we had, they had taken away from

us, she started reading it. And she was finding a lot of peace and comfort in the Bible. And my dad noticed the change in her notice she was like, just there was so much more peace about her and she seemed happier. And he asked her like, something's up, tell me and she said, she's kind of fearfully. She said, I'm reading the Bible. But I didn't know that at age 16. But things kind of were not as intense when I was 16. And I would sneak off

to church. And then 17 I got I actually asked to be rebaptised at that time, my parents had said, you know, we're reading the Bible. But so I asked to be I, you know, I felt like I had a more of an understanding of who Jesus was. And not that I encourage the baptism, but at that time, I felt like I was owning it. Whereas at nine, I felt like I was kind of following my brother's vision.

So I was baptized, and then didn't really see much fruit to my parents, I think there were still seekers at that point. Because I really saw radical change in them in terms of following Christ when I came back from college, so at age 22. So other even though from nine to 16, it was intense and, and 16 on, they seem to be very, you know, not as intense about, you know, I think they'd actually backed off from forcing us to

return to Islam. But at 22, they want to be baptized, they wanted to take Bibles back to Iran, they were just, you could see that there was a passion there. And they really like got it. They really got what it meant that Jesus died on the cross for them and the life that was required of them to follow after them after Jesus.

working with refugees. I've known some of them for 20 years, and then they become Christian. That's just walking through life with them. But so I just want to encourage people that reach refugees, or are in the mission field in the Muslim world, like sometimes it takes time, it took my parents about 10 years, at

least. But yeah, so it was actually a miracle seeing my dad, like, I remember seeing him for the first time kneel before the cross, and I just like cried, I just never imagined him ever battling, you know, kneeling before Jesus and accepting him as his Lord and Savior. So after college, I was going to go to medical school, but I went to a little retreat by InterVarsity Fellowship, which was the group I was involved with in college or in

the university. And they told us to kind of let go of our dreams and visions of our future and kind of really seek God of what God had for us. And so that was the first time I kind of let go, my idea of medical school and just like, Okay, God, this is what I want, I want to be a missionary, you know, and, like Albert Schweitzer, I'd read about him, I want to be a missionary, and I want to be a doctor. So my parents are proud

and proud of me. Because coming from an immigrant family, you're always told, like you want to you should be a doctor, you need to be a doctor. So I thought, you know, this is how I can encourage, I can both make my parents proud. And also, I can kind of do be in the mission field. So I was kind of, in my mind kind of reasoning with God, you know, I could be a missionary and a doctor, but I just kind of let all that go. And I was like, Okay, God, what

do you want from me. And that's the first time I really I had no vision of ever going back to Iran. Because my dad chapter was closed, there was war, there was devastation, there was the radical Islamic government. And it was a season of just the American dream. My dad really wanted us to pursue the American dream. But that was the first time I just I had a vision of Muslim woman crying and kneeling and crying, and I was telling them about Jesus, but I was really broken. It was in my

brokenness. And in my 20s, I hadn't really been broken. So I didn't know like, what I remember thinking, what am I so sad about? But it was in my brokenness that they were also kneeling, and they had all their head covering. And I could tell they were from Iran, as you as you know, there's different woman from different countries in the Middle East, were there her job differently? And so I could tell they were Iranian woman from the way they were, they looked, and they wore their

hijab. And so I thought, God, are you telling me I need to go back to Iran. So that really started my journey. And that was a few hiccups in the journey. But really, after September 11, right around a few months after September 11, where as where I knew God was birthing there was like, there was such a, I knew that God was like, You need to

go back to Iran. And I didn't know that he was sending me at the forefront of a revival where I was about to experience seeing 1000s of Muslims become Christian and be at the forefront of one of the largest house church movements in Iran.

for their faith. And even though the Iranian government was saying they were allowing for religious freedom, they were only allowing non Christian non Muslims to hold meetings like Armenians, but as soon as they would allow a Muslim to get into the church building, then they would persecute them for allowing Muslim to hear the gospel. And, and also, there were certain messages they could or could not give, they can talk about the resurrection of

Christ. And so the building church had actually because of the martyr, being having so many martyrs and also just the restrictions that was placed on them, they start going underground, and they start training Bible. There was underground Bible school. So that had started in the early 2000s. Side was part of that my husband at that time was part of that Bible school that it was underground because of the persecution of the building

church. And so I think that was part of it is the blood of the martyrs is the seat of the church. why that happened? Also, Iranian people asked for Islam and they got Islam. And so I think they just had a few decades of Islam and at They saw Islamic law played out before them. And they were a lot of the young people like I was in my 20s. A lot of the converts were young people that were teenagers or people in their 20s college students. So I think they were ready for something different.

And but it was the harvest. It was time. It was the right time, which right after September 11, you would imagine like this Iran still to this day, such a radical Muslim country would have such a revival with being now one of the largest growing Christian nations in the world.

still be friendly. And some of them would say, Okay, I could be a Muslim follower of Jesus, I'm going to hold to Scripture, I'm going to hold to the New Testament. I'm not gonna follow the Koran or Muhammad, but culturally a Muslim, do you think it's because of it big being an Arab religion, it came from the Arabs into to Persia into Iran. Why do you think there is that difference there? Yeah,

Persians. And, like you said, they kind of saw it as an outside invasion. laureate, Persians were Zoroastrian, but also a Persians. If you look at the book of Acts, chapter two, it says, parasites needs in Elamites, were one Oh, the first three people group that it mentions in the book of Acts that were at the there at the day of Pentecost, in church forming, and they're all people groups in Iran, are in person.

And so the Iran actually at some point, like a lot of the Middle East, like turkey that had the seven churches in Revelation was very much Christian, the Christianity had spread. But when Islam came about 600 years after Christianity really killed the Christians or forced them into the Islamic religion. And so, but the Persians really resisted, because it was kind of like an outside force. So they never really picked up on that culture. It really didn't ever

become part of the culture. So that's why it's easier when Iranian Christians, Iranians become Christian to kind of walk away from the Arabic culture because that's kind of it was a different culture anyways, we still had a little bit Ramadan is like Christmas for them. So we still had people that would get saved, and they would really want to do Ramadan. Because Ramadan or some people say Ramazan is, is very much like Christmas. So you don't eat all day. You don't drink water all

day. But then you have feed every night. You have like parties for a whole month, every single night. So it's like, really fun. And so that we noticed what that it was like, that's where the temptation for a lot of our house church members came is, this was this there was a festive time of Lord the whole country. It it was so cultural is like Christmas when we do Christmas as a nation. And it was really hard for them not to get pulled in. And we what we did instead was we prayed for

it. During that time of Ramadan, we would pray for Muslims to convert and for God to show themselves during this time of prayer and fasting would come in dreams and visions, which is very normal, in the Middle East that Muslims come to know Jesus through dreams and visions. So that was probably the biggest temptation for people who became Christian was the month of Ramadan.

the Truth and the lie. So at that time, a lot of my questions got answered that when someone truly cries out to God, and is desperate for God, God will reveal Himself to them, no matter where they are in the world, what religion they are, what they worship, God will reveal Himself to them. So I think I don't know and also purchase kind of the land of Daniel. So he had dreams, visions. So I don't know. But that was very interesting to me, because I grew up in the

American Christian culture. And I grew up in a church where it was like war, by word teaching, there was not a whole lot about dreams and visions that was actually like never talked about. So when I saw that in Iran, I was really surprised. But I was also very encouraged that God was reaching people who were crying out to Him that Jesus was directly reaching them. Yeah,

Jesus is the one that's drawing people.

finish my medical studies. And it was towards the end of that, that I was invited to the building church. And I thought, Well, I'm leaving. I literally had a plane ticket coming back to America. So what if they know I'm Christian, I'm leaving. So I actually went to the building, church and side was on worship. He was one of the worship people. And I was really drawn to as excited as what seemed to be passionate and excitement for Christ. And later, I learned that he was also part of that

underground Bible school. So he had actually, because of the persecution on the building churches, he was one of the people that had been actually assigned by that church to start house churches to they had told them to just start teaching people in the house churches and not have them come to building churches so that the government would not identify them. Yeah. So. So he had about a few dozen people that he had, were part of his house church, I had five and we kind of joined forces. He was

a guy and I was a girl. And there was a lot of the house churches at that time about 60 70% were women. And so, you know, we kind of joined forces, and I was going to disciple the woman. And he was and he was a great evangelist. Wow. I mean, growing up in America, I thought I was like, such an evangelist. Because I was sharing the gospel always but comparing myself to say it was just he that's what drew me to him he had. I think, at my core, I would say if I had, if I could pick a gift, it

would be evangelism. And what what gets me going each day is evangelism is my passion. And so seeing that in him is what clicked like, got me, completely drawn to him.

the very beginning of it. So in 2003, was when the revival in Iran happened. I just sensed like, I had to go back I couldn't focus on studies. So I went back and site and I just fulfilled Force started discipling one thing you know, God, we had never studied like house church movement, or I mean we, we read the Bible, the Book of Acts, but we didn't plan any

of it. But one of the things was, our house was in the middle of Tehran, and very close to Tehran University, which a lot of people from different cities would come to town to get educated, and then they would go back to their villages or smaller cities. And so these college students were getting saved. And we would meet disciple them, we would spend time with them during their college years, and then they would go back in their cities,

we'd send Bibles with them. And that's how, within two years we had 33 church plants in 33. I mean, we had hundreds of churches, but 33 cities, started churches, and it was all college students that were getting saved in Teheran, getting trained and then going back to their cities and starting churches.

your mom or your dad. So I started kind of like, oh, I can't trust my friend anymore. Like sight sees spiritual issues. And so I really he became my source of truth. And even the Bible, I would read the Bible and say, Well, I think God says this. He's like, your, you know, he would question my understanding of the Bible, suicide actually became my source of trying to understand the Bible. It's everything went

back to him. So he really caught me off from not just people but even my own walk with God, where he was kind of the middle person. Whether God was happy with me or, or like he would use proverbs 31 or says her husband is pleased in her name. So you know, God is pleased with you when I'm pleased with you. So he kind of slowly and gradually became the middle person where me submitting to him and me pleasing Him equalled me pleasing God. And so isolation, also just putting me down a lot

by how I looked. So I, I did have some self confidence. But over, you know, the course of even our dating, he really tore it down, where I didn't, I was feeling very, like timid and how I looked, and I, he would pick out start picking out my outfits and how I, the makeup I wore and all of that. And so, but I didn't see that as abuse. There was a little bit of shoving and pushing, and what is it called, like, ignoring me, giving me the silent treatment. Again, I

didn't see that as abuse. So it really wasn't until about a year and a half into our marriage where there was a full on beating. I was pregnant with my daughter, we had a very stressful time escaping Iran and being having traveled to Dubai, because we had been arrested so many times and side had been summoned to go to court. So we just left. And side was very neat. I was unpacking the suitcase. As I was throwing things out. I realize, he said, you know, you're making a mess.

And I said, Well, who cares? I kind of like rolled my eyes. And that was the full on meeting I got and that was the day I realized, well, I yeah, I was pregnant. I didn't imagine walking away from the marriage. I had been in the purity movement, which meant like side was my first kiss first holding hand everything and also coming from the Middle East culture, you know that. So I just couldn't it's not part of the Middle East culture to divorce. It's not it wasn't part of the

Christian culture. So I just didn't see there was much that I could do other than submit more, and not have him get to that place of anger. So from then on, I walked on eggshells and the physical abuse didn't happen again until about a year later where he nearly beat me up again and but we were in America and I called the police but but yeah, the first full on physical abuse happened About a year and a half in our marriage, and at that time again, I still didn't call

it abuse. I just thought, you know, well, he we were under stress, I shouldn't have talked back, you know, and I'm just going to be more submissive and quiet spirit, you know, in that relationship.

Christ that's in trouble. We had a woman who was a single mom who was about to go to homeless, and I, like, I caused a lot of noise to get the church to help her so she wouldn't be homeless, there's something inside of me that really has this heart, I really feel the pain of another brother or sister going through a drop. So once I was in prison, I really struggled to get them out. And imagining myself in that situation with radical Muslims. And in the process of

trying to get them out. God was setting me free, which sounds very strange. But I was such a shell of a person. When Syed went to prison, there was indications of adultery, but I didn't want to accept it. And the book goes into more detail about that. And when he went to prison, I did everything to get him out, I think, and initially, he wrote amazing letters from prison, I think they're still online, there seemed to be a change in the person that I had called me names and put me down.

So there was hope. And, but as as I was advocating for him, people were saying, you're so pretty, you're so well spoken, like people were speaking life into me. And also actually my relationship with God, God, amazing. Because when I was in the abusive marriage, I kind of distanced myself from God, I, I didn't understand it. But in the back of my mind, it was a question of like, Is this who God is like, this is what he

expects from me. And also having two little toddlers and working full time I wasn't really into the word or praying. So once I had went to prison, I really spent a lot of time prayer and fasting and reading the Word. And that's where God was like, you're my daughter, you're so special to me, I care for you. And so my confidence was building up, and two and a half years into his imprisonment side got a smartphone with internet on it. And the maximum security prison in Iran. It cost like

$7,000 to get that phone. That's

or heads of state. So in a way they were allowing it to kind of listen in, but I at that time, I didn't even think about that it was just connection with my husband. But I thought I found it strange that he would have a smartphone with internet. But I took it as God's allowing it. So at first, he was very thankful that I was advocating for him. But soon, the whole name calling started again, you're Jezza Bell, you're not important. People are clapping for me. And I was really confused as I was

trying to get them out. Like why was he? Why are you saying this? Like we're on the same team. I'm trying to get you out. I didn't realize until later that abusers when they realized that the person they're abusing is gaining confidence. They have to crush them so that they can kind of still control them. And as I was noticing that I was gaining confidence in who I was in

Christ. And even though a Christian husband would be very happy to see that up and it made side very angry that I was finding my identity in Christ because it meant this side could no longer control me. As and so he was being really mean to me from prison. And one day I was speaking at a church in North Carolina and I just broke down and for the first time and told This pastor like I don't understand, here's his text messages from prison, like, what's going on? Why is he

calling me names? I'm trying to get them out and this pastor actually wasn't. His name is Dr. David Jack Chadwick. He said, Well, I'm not just the pastor. I'm actually a doctor in psychology and you're an abused wife. And that's when I got my diagnosis. And, yeah, and everything really, I shared with a group of people that were close to me that I was an abused wife after Dr. Chadwick told me

that. And within hours, I had all sorts of media, secular Christian calling me and it just kind of blew up over the internet. So a lot of people think cite came out of prison. And then I said he was abusive. That's not true. I was accused of like, oh, he came out of prison and you had a boyfriend. So you had to like throw him under the bus? No. First of all, this abuse stuff came out, months before it came out.

Second of all, to this day, it's been seven years since say, since Sayyed divorced me, I didn't divorce. I was afraid of divorce. And as you know, working with Middle Eastern culture, very scared for a woman to be a divorce. And so I didn't divorce him. So it's been seven years since our divorce. And to this day site has been the only man I've dated I've been with. So that whole idea notion that I was throwing site under the bus to be with someone else was

really hurtful to me. But yes, so it just broke all over Neaton news. And people threw all sorts of judgment at me. And I got it was pretty traumatic, because, up to that point, I was getting threats from the Iranian government for being quiet. I was chasing them down in hotels and going after the president of Iran and Delic. I mean, they I was everywhere at any time, they were at a United Nations in Geneva, or New York, I was

there. And I go into details in some of those encounters in my book, but they had threatened me, but what was shocking was just the way the Christian community turned on me. That was probably the most hurtful and painful process because they were my brothers and sisters. Yeah,

it's not fun. It's really hard. Yeah. And especially with all the difficult horrible things that you were going through in your marriage, in your life, and then to have Christians and I think for us, too, it was the Christians that that turned against us. That hurts the most. So when did you start to realize that there are Christian leaders, and pastors that are also trying to control and to subvert the narrative and, and hide things so that you know that money or whatever can take place?

own lives. I mean, I was told you could have an amazing ministry, you could be a millionaire and a Christian hero, you can have Christ and the world to like, just don't talk about it. But I think the thing that got me was sight from prison one had all these private jets and houses and there was verses God kept bringing to me friendship with the world is being an enemy to me. I mean, it's not just like, oh, I don't like that you let your friends with the world God is like you

then become my enemy. And God was just saying, No, you're not going to profit also is my name. Following me as costly. It's not something that you get you use for your own benefit. That's not Christianity. I mean, we see Jesus was so strong and people that wanted to follow him like literally leave all if you want to be my disciple carry or Cross

the narrow road. And so I really saw that side was really into wanting to use the martyrdom to profit and also pastors were telling me you can profit off of this you can and honestly, it was it was hard. I know you've probably experienced it. It was hard for the Christian community to turn on me and for me to lose everything, but in a way was freeing. Because now my identity is not if I'm not making it or

knock me out. But Dinny, if I'm a pastor's wife, I'm just a woman in Boise, Idaho, is I am an advocate if my identity is I'm a child of God. And whether I do ministry or not, I'm okay. Ministry is not an idle, it was an idle. Marriage was not was not an idle, it was an idle, I found try to find a lot of my happiness in my marriage, and God didn't let me. And so everything that was stripped away from me, it really brought

me to Christ. And just being okay, and being content in life, like whether I have a lot or a little whether I do ministry or not. My value is not that I'm doing this great minister, or I'm not doing ministry, it's really in Christ. And I think once we go through the fiery trials and get to that point, it's a really beautiful place to be. It's really, you can't be shaken. You really be shaken by trials or circumstances of this

life. But you also I don't know if you've experienced it, when you walk through that you also don't realize how fragile you are. That if you don't really hold on to Jesus all the time, you can sink within seconds.

to turn on you. What made you hold on to Jesus through all of that fire and trial?

everything. If this is not real, then I'm I'm just gonna I was never I am the kind of person it's either this or that. Either. I'm gonna give if Jesus is real, and he died and rose again, like that's radical than it requires my everything. If not, if I'm kind of in, I don't know, or, you know, then it's better to just go after the world. And so I've always had this intensity for Christ, because I'm like, I keep reminding myself, he rose from the dead, like, he is victorious

over death and sin. He's the real deal. He, he said, everything he everything. He said, he proved that. So he is God, and everything in Scripture is true, then that then whatever it costs, we got to follow that. And so for me, it was like I lived. At that time, when the Christians attacked me, I'd lived almost 40 years of, well, nine years that that was Muslim, but 3930 some years, 31 years of radically following Christ, despite my family's persecution, despite the Iranian government,

and I wasn't gonna go back. And so he was all I had, I literally put all my eggs in one basket. And I had not had other like, it's like, you are all I have, I can't I'm not gonna let you go. And eat pulled me through. He pulled me through some really dark times of depression and anxiety and questioning. I never, although there was times i It was hard for me to read scripture, because I had been twisted and used against me. It was through scripture that I

found healing. I know a lot of people say, Well, I can't even read Scripture anymore. And but I had to really seek God to show me the ways the Word of God was twisted, to turn me against God himself in a way to really show me what those scriptures meant. And the more I read, I remember reading like Hosea two, verses 14 through 16, where it says, God, you know, talks about taking, you know, taking me like taking this woman to the wilderness and says, I will

speak tenderly to her there. And I remember crying like you're tender, you're kind you're not harsh. And just discovering the kindness and tenderness of God, to me, was what really, he was healing to me. So I really encourage me I went to a

biblical counselor. I know, people go to other counselors, which is fine, but ultimately, I think our true healing thing can be found in Christ, especially if scripture has been used against us to question to God is i, it took me a while, but I went back to those scriptures that were so painful. And I saw a different perspective of God's love and care, especially for the broken and not this harsh God that requires submission to abuse no matter what that's not

who God is. God cares more for the person, then the institution of marriage, or God created marriage, God created Sabbath, God created church, those were all to benefit the person. And if it's no longer if those institutions are harming instead of protecting and nourishing the gods, like, it's okay, if it falls apart. I came for the person I came to die for you. So if the marriage falls apart, it

falls apart. I think part of me felt like I was more of a saint by being married, then divorced, like divorce almost was like a red letter. Yeah. But God showed me know, your doesn't make you like less of a saint by being divorce, which was what I was afraid of?

with you. And he's for you. And yeah, also, I think for from your story, it was really helpful for that pastor and psychologists to say, No, you are an abused wife and to have have friends and community around you to call things what they are, is really helpful as well. You know, now as you're, you're moving forward, one of the things I think you're so you're involved in in refugees and helping refugees. You're

still involved in Iran. And at least at some point, what, what is what what's going on what's exciting to you, working with these marginalized communities with refugees, or working with Iranians that are following Jesus, even despite heavy persecution and difficult things within the country?

help. And the Christian Iranians that were had been despised by these even Syrian and Afghani refugees, were the ones that helped and I we saw so many soft hearts towards Christ as a result, and people even coming

to church. That was encouraging Afghanistan right now, same thing is happening since the Taliban took over girls little 910 year olds are being married off to 57 year olds, and I can't go into too much detail, but there's Christians ministering and there's a Christian, I guess, hidden Christian Medical people that are ministering to these children giving birth and saving lives of both the mom and the children. And we are actually seeing a lot of conversions in Afghanistan more

than ever. Now. Also, Iran continues to grow. Recently, you know, Iran, people have gone through a lot of trauma, a lot of with Islamic government, even with what's happening in Afghanistan, and also Israel, the underground church has an health minister to children

going through trauma. I can't go into detail, but they're just seeing the heart of the of the of the underground church and how God, what what we hear on the news as just tragic, like what's happened in Afghanistan, or what's happening in Israel, I can say that God is working behind the scenes using Christians to spread the Gospel.

And that's what's encouraging to me because I get to see behind the scenes and just, you know, Afghanistan, we were devastated when Taliban took over but there's more people getting saved and coming to know Jesus now than ever. So for me, he's saying that being really involved in all of that is encouraging to me because not always everything you hear on the news. You can see the spiritual side of it, but there is a spiritual side that God doesn't let go to waste. God

uses it for good. I don't, you know, you know, I don't know where people stand with you. I think you know, We just live in an evil world. But God uses that evil that happens that brokenness that happens for the gospel and for good. Yeah,

were happening at that time. And I remember telling the stories, and we were going around telling stories and these long term missionaries that have been there for 20 years, look to each other and started crying, and said, This is what we've been praying for, for 20. Yes, that it was and then all of a sudden, it felt like the floodgates were opening and that are saying yes to Jesus. And so I'm really encouraged by that, even in the midst of heavy persecution. And

it's not easy. So why do you think that there is this accelerated growth that Iran is the fastest growing church in the world? And that there seems to be a lot of discontent or an and opposite of growth in the American church? What do you think? What are some of the the differences that you have seen?

to the broken. There's something about brokenness that brings God in that right garden and the persecuted church in China and Iran really half that. I think the American church without realizing it, we've become self sufficient. I don't know if we're really, our prayer is, churches that really pray is not very much to be honest, I've gone to a lot of prayer meetings, not a lot of people

show up. And you kind of can tell, test the pulse of the God's people based on how much their prayer because prayer is like a cry for desperation is kind of like pouring out to God is, so we're not, we're not desperate for God yet. And in a way, we've just relied on our traditions of doing church a

certain way. And we're gonna do three songs sermon, but to really get to a place of like, God, we don't know what we're doing Holy Spirit, you're supposed to be leading the church, like, show us, whatever that looks like, like will submit to it, if it means breaking off some traditions and changing things around to, to minister to the least of these to be more in our communities, and less in our buildings,

whatever that looks like. But I think in a lot of ways, we've forgotten that the Holy Spirit is the leader of the church, and that as the church in America, we need to be desperate and seeking the Holy Spirit to lead and the persecuted church, as you know, you work with Syrians and the Middle East. There's the desperation for the Christians in the Middle East. And God will always, always, always lesson listen, and step in for his people when they're desperate for him.

But he was my life source, but I was distant. And so I would have, I would have told her, like, whatever life hits that you like, don't blame it on God and just hold on to him, like, you know, it's not, don't attribute it to God, and just keep seeking Him. Because probably, you know, I'm for sure, like, a lot of those hard years would have just been more beautiful in my journey with God if I had not distanced myself

from God. So I think that is still everything that happened, needed to happen to break me and mold me and, you know, draw me close to him, and I'm thankful for it all. But I would, I guess, if I could take anything from it is don't ever let go of Christ ever. Don't ever like distance yourself. Don't ever just keep fighting, keep clinging, keep seeking don't let people's view of who God is. cause a rift between you and God. Yeah,

And just I think, in ways we can, for me, in my book, let's talk about how we can learn from the underground church, of what it means to be a community and to be brothers and sisters, no one with titles. And being a pastor in the Iranian church, for example, means that you die, you're the first one to go, you're the one that's laying down your life for the sheep.

And so learning from the underground church, but I think in a lot of ways, what I learned from Lance for Lance forts book, and other books that I'm reading is, we really need to repent and go back to learning what it means to replace all this leadership material we've been given business, I met with a pastor yesterday, and he was talking about business, like, you know, how you can make and I was like, I'm so sick of it. Because the way God does business is so upside down, you

would lose every, it's not. So upside down in this world, if you follow God's way of doing business, he would like be such a bad worldly business person. And so I think in a lot of ways,

we have to we are to repent. And really, books like land, sports books are some that are recently reading, but to really learn, like relearn what it means to be a leader, and to get away from this worldly executive, kind of idea of leadership that's so anti biblical and really learn what it means to have Christ as our head again, and the Holy Spirit leading the church, I think we've kind of strayed away

from that. And we're just, we're just operating on mechanics and take, we've taken on a lot of the ways of the world and the way we operate as a church and not as a family. Yeah,

community, Holy Spirit. And also, hopefully, it'll give give some people that are in abusive marriages or situations or churches, give them some hope to be able to hold on to Christ. When things are difficult and hard, how to get your book and connect with you.