Like just have an honest prayer and just say God, here's where I'm at. And I'm not here to say it's, it's a too big of a problem or not big enough. But just here's where I'm at, here's what I'm feeling. I need help. And then where do I go from there? And you know, if we do that, we're gonna get to the next right place.
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave
a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. Previous guests on the show have included Sharon hottie Miller, Jim Wilder and Josh White. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Jason Van ruler, Jason Van ruler is the author of get past your past how facing your broken places leads to true
connection. He began his career in 2011 and has worked with many populations over the years, ranging from persons who are incarcerated to top CEOs, performers and artists, and just about everyone in between. Jason has extensive experience as a clinician coach and speaker and operates a multi site private practice. In 2018, Jason joined Bethesda workshops in Nashville, Tennessee, where he serves as a group leader and facilitator.
Jason is known for his ability to relate and connect with his clients and offer hope to those who have felt hopeless. He has engaged in a rapidly growing online audit audience for his insightful short videos sharing practical tips for psychological care, self help and healthy
relationships. Jason and I have a great conversation about our past wounds and struggles and how we could heal from them so that we could be healthy and whole, we can find Christ in the dark places of our lives as he enters into the suffering with us. And he will be there to lead us into the next step. We talked about the necessity of acknowledging where we are at being honest with ourselves and God, asking for help and finding
friends to walk with us. Join us as we uncover the wounds of our past so that we could heal from them, and move forward into the future in a healthy way connected to God, and to one another. Here's my conversation with Jason Van ruler. Jason, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on. Thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you, Joshua. I've been looking forward to this. It is great to talk with you and to talk with someone located relatively close to where I'm at. So that's great to
Yeah, I do. I do go through South Dakota. I do enjoy it. We actually talked about it yesterday. Because we were we were talking about rich Mullins, and he has a song all about the Badlands. And so we were talking to my six year old about South Dakota. And he for some reason sad. Is that where my uncle lives? Like no. Like, yeah, I guess that's where you're wrong.
Well, Jason, was like, what? Yeah, it was like with the kids trying to connect like,
where did that come from?
But I don't know if I track with that. But fair enough. Yeah, it
is. It is kind of crazy. I really enjoy your your new book, get past your past is something for I think this is really important for all of us to reckon with our past so that we could move forward and healthy ways that we could live in the now in the present in ways where your past isn't always affecting you, and your daily rhythms and your patterns that your relationships with
other people. Why did you, you decide that you personally had to reckon with your past and walk this this path of healing so that you can have an adult life that looks healthy with healthy relationships?
Well, it was a lazy Saturday, and I just thought, what else should I deal with today? Exactly. I was I was all caught up on TV shows and Netflix. And I thought why not? Yeah, I think for me, you know, I just saw how, you know, I grew up in my childhood. My parents divorced early on resulted in a lot of chaos and volatility. And so I kind of came out of that. And I knew I didn't want that. But I really didn't know how to
do it differently. And so what I kind of kept finding is, as much as I would try to run to the next thing or run to the thing I thought would be better. Boy, all that old stuff kept coming back. And so it was kind of like you know, the Scooby Doo shows where they're like, well, who's the bad guy? And it's always the same person with a different mask. And I was just so tired of the same villain and a different
mask. And so I think for me, that kind of was the catalyst to, okay, how do I really deal with this so that it doesn't keep happening like this? And along the way, the question really got to be about every one has a past, how do some people actually take that and use it to make them better? Versus how does that keep other people
stuck? And so for me, becoming a therapist, that was really the question I've been trying to answer for a long time is, is how do we use it for good instead of to hold us back?
Then how do we use it for good? How can we walk into the trauma, the difficulties of Broken Places of our past? And have it be used for good for our life now?
Yeah, you know, the challenges is that, certainly there are bad things that happen to us. And so I don't, I don't want to do that thing that you know, those self help guys do where we go, it's all good. It's all great. You know, it's like, well, that actually, Jason, that was an awesome, there are going
to be bad things that happen. I think what I've found in both my own life, and clinically and working with a lot of different people, is that the people who use their past for good, tend to take whatever lesson or good they can from it, and then leave it. So they have a different relationship with it. And that usually is one where they can see it a little more objectively, and with a little more awareness than they saw it when they were in it. Right?
When when we're in a car accident, for instance, it can be easy to feel like car accidents happen all the time, that they're super scary and dangerous. And we get a little ways away from that we say actually, it's a lot more rare. It does happen, there are some things that can do to try to avoid that. But at the end of the day, it is not as intense as I felt when I was in it. And so a lot of dealing with our past is to kind of say now that I've gotten a little ways away from
it. What can I glean from that experience that actually helps me today?
Well, one of the things he said there, it just reminded me that, you know, if you're in a car accident, sometimes you can minimize the the destruction or the brokenness or the pain that it did feel and say, I am not allowed to feel bad about this, because it was a trivial thing. But I think we all have things in our past that trigger us now in the future, and the place where we're living, so even something small, like, like my parents, I grew up really well. I've incredible parents, they
loved me. And the worst thing that ever did to me is they told me I'm the best. That it's not No, it wasn't bad. And they were trying their best. But for me, I felt like okay, now I need to be you know, perfectionist, if I don't get to that excellent level, I can't tell anybody, buddy about it. So I'm hiding. So it actually hindered me a little bit of trying to say, I could actually fail on this to get better and to improve and to move forward. So it stopped me from engaging some things in my
adult life. And I had to reckon with that. And that's a small thing and a thing that I would never thought that would be a place that would trigger me in the future. So how do we recognize even small things from the past that are misaligning? Our patterns and rhythms of life now?
Yeah, I think it's just being aware and okay with having those feelings and not trying to qualify them or justify them or do the should? Or shouldn't, you know, if it matters to you what matters. And that's not to say you have to hang your whole life around that. But if you find yourself in a situation where you say, you know, there's this theme, or there's this pattern in my life, Jason, where I'm consistently afraid to take a risk, because it seems to threaten me being perfect. Okay.
All right. I mean, you know, you don't have to say and, you know, do I get to feel that way? I don't know. And you feel that way. Right. And so, if you feel that way, what do you need to do with that? What what, what is that telling you about what needs to happen in your life right now to deal with it? So
how do we recognize the feelings that we feel? And how do we become aware of those things so that we can start to unearth the past?
Yeah, that's, I get asked that question a lot. And I always tell people, you know, I used to own a recruiting company before becoming a therapist. I haven't always been this guy in so I know what it's like to hear people say, Well, you know, just like think about it or feel it or talk of a bunch is to say, Well, I have no clue. I don't know what I don't know you're even talking about right now.
And so I think sometimes a couple of approaches that are helpful is do I know what I'm feeling if I don't do I know what I'm not feeling. Okay, so sometimes it's easier to identify what we're not feeling why No, I'm not angry. No, I'm not sad and Okay. The other thing is, if we don't really know we're thinking or feeling, is there a song? Is there a movie? Is there, you know, poem an essay? Is there a tweet, whatever that thing is? Is there some other thing that really
captures how we're feeling? So maybe we can't kind of self identify, but we might say, Yeah, I don't know how I'm feeling. But I know when I listen to this song today. That was it. So we can even just start there and just say, what about that connected? Or can I really relate to somebody. So I think how we begin to learn to do that is we find places that we can relate to first, and then we start to develop our own language for it.
Yeah, that's, that's really good to find those things of, of common places where we could relate to something and songs, movies, things that we can start to identify emotions. A lot of times when, when we haven't dealt with the past, we get triggered. And even if we have dealt with the past, we get triggered. And the same ways over and over, it feels like, this is my core fear. I'm
getting triggered in this. So when you get triggered, and whatever your core fear is, whatever the the pain point that you feel, and use, you start to react emotionally, what are some ways to start to deal with those triggers that are healthy, that don't lead to avoidance or they don't lead to overreacting? What can we do to walk in those ways?
That's a great question. I think really, the first thing to do is just to create space to experience that, because we all do that thing, right? Where we go, I don't want to sit down or I felt this way before. And so we just shut it down. Which is, you know, it's interesting, because it only makes it worse, you know? So if I said, Hey, here's what I want you to do is I want you to not think about an elephant right now. You're thinking about it, because I just told you not to.
And so I think kind of the first thing to do is just to say like, there, there's space for me to feel that way. That's okay. I feel that way. I don't have to do that thing where like I argue if I should or shouldn't feel that way I just do. And then is there something I need to do about that? So often, there is nothing you need to do about it. You just say I'm kind of activated. That reminds me of this makes me a little bit sad. Is there anything I need to do about it? Now now there really,
there isn't right. There's nothing I need to do better right now. Or? Yeah, there is something I need to do about I need to say something or I need to go do this. And then the other question is just kind of if I were to use what I'm experiencing, to grow or to be better, what would I do now? Right? So I'm, you know, I'm activated, and I just feel really unsettled. And I'm struggling. And so if I use this for good, what would I do? Well, I think I'd go for a walk, I go for a walk, because that's
healthy. And I probably clear my mind. Okay, awesome, go do that.
Walks, always help. Especially. That's it.
Winter walks are no good. But I'll take a summer walk any day,
man, that's the i Well, my wife, because she can't walk very much in the winter, as I mean, her emotional state is, is less, it's harder in the winter, just because she can't get out and be in the sunshine and and, you know, exercise and get those, those great, those great drugs that we do have stored in our body that God has given us activated. Right. So we need to activate
some of those things. But also, I think, what is our relationship when we have a relationship with Christ, Christ identifies with us and his suffering, is that he's a suffering Christ. And so we identify with him and our suffering as well. How does being a believer in Christ and the suffering that we engage in with him? How does that help us deal with things in the past?
Yeah, I tell people this and I always kind of joke that I'm not volunteering. But I think for myself, and for most of the people I work with, we actually we find Christ in those dark places, that that's really where it's obvious and evident. And again, I'm volunteering. I'm not saying like, Hey, God, I'm looking for a hard time. But I do think that we have to have both. And so to to want, a faith that never has difficult spots or suffering is probably not to have the kind of faith we're
called to. The kind of faith we're called to is to go to those dark places, but to know that we're not alone in that. And so a really is an invitation to a deeper relationship if we allow that.
So what does it look like? Some say I'm in a dark pit. And how do I say Christ? You're with me here in this when I feel hopeless and alone and desperate?
Yep, well, the first thing We don't pray for a pillow and a blanket in the Dark Pit, we pray for a ladder. So so the thing is, is that sometimes we're tempted to get really comfortable in a place we shouldn't be comfortable in. So I think really what we look for is, Okay, God is with me, I have this ability to pray and to communicate. And really what is the next step we take together? And so instead of saying, How do I make this place more comfortable, it's how do I take
the next right step? Because otherwise, what we do is we just try to find a way to live in the space. And I don't think we're called to that either. Right? I don't think God says like, Hey, I just want you to live in the pit for the rest of your life hanging out there. I think it's a really, it's a ladder thing in so it's, I will help you with that. If you're willing to take a step.
Yeah, we kind of identify with with the pet, right? In the Old Testament stories, we have Joseph in a pit, we have Daniel in the lions den, he's in a pit with a bunch of lions, and God saves them through other people and through, you know, things that he does with lions that don't hurt Daniel. But we often think, Oh, if I'm in the pit, that means that God is with me, it's okay. And I could stay in there. And I could live in that, that
place. So what what does that next step look like so that we can move out and into a future like Joseph needed to get out of the pit to actually become second in command in Egypt, to save his family and, and everyone else for seven years, when there was gonna be a big famine. And so he had this purpose in his life, and his purpose wasn't to stay in the pit. What how do we figure out this is my next step, this is the thing that that can start to help me get out of it.
It's often a cry for help. You know, I think when I think about those those things, it was it was a cry for help to get out. It wasn't a cry for help to stay. And so for us personally, what that looks like is asking for help. We're telling somebody what's going on. And even just starting with prayer, but building on that, but it in none of those places do we just say, well, I'll just figure out a way, I'll figure out a way on my own, and that'll that'll work. And this will be
okay. It's really it's about, it's about acknowledging where you're at being honest about it, and then asking for help to get out of that place. And I think we struggle a lot with that, because we live in a place where, you know, it's really hard to acknowledge where we're at, because we can just distract ourselves all the time. It's really challenging to be honest about it, because it's not always rewarded to be honest about things, you know, so nice, actually doesn't go as well as
you might think. And asking for help. If we've been hurt before, it can seem really risky and dangerous. So we kind of have this trifecta of like, I don't know, this is really scary. And yet, we won't get out if we don't do it.
So how does our culture shape us in a way that, because I think all those are very much culture like, like, I feel like I don't need to ask for help one because I'm supposed to pick myself up by my bootstraps. And you know, I have my individualistic culture, I could do it on my own. And I could get out of it. So I'm scared there. I don't want to be honest and vulnerable with other people. Because there's, you know, there's hurt and there's
pain in the past. I mean, I've talked about vulnerability, I've had people come back at me say, Man, I don't want to be vulnerable, because every time I open up, I get hurt. And so I can't do that there aren't any safe people. And I think there's this culture at play. So how do we get over some of our cultural assumptions of this is how the world works. It doesn't work this way, everywhere in the world, but it does work this way
here in the west. So how do we get over those things to be able to enter into the scary parts? In the end? The bits that I'm afraid of?
Yeah, I mean, the question would be, how's it working? So if this is working, great, keep doing it. If it's not, then then maybe we need to lean into these things, something you said that really stands out to me is that we can have this kind of belief about the world that gets reinforced
if we're not careful. And so if we have been hurt in the past, we might have a belief that, you know, if we're honest or vulnerable with people that ends badly, and so what we do is we just stockpile all this stuff, and we don't talk about to talk about and then we finally get to place where we pick somebody, and maybe they don't even know we pick them and we book we just say all this stuff. And then they don't they don't do well with it for whatever reason,
right? Because they can't or they won't, but they don't do well with it. And then we say See, that's why I don't do that. That's why I don't do that. And we don't spend a lot of time saying well did how how'd you do on picking the right person to do that with how did you do on it? kind of setting yourself up for success. Because if you didn't try that, we might not be that surprised about why we're here. And so sometimes it's just saying, if I wanted to be different, I have to do a different.
I mean, that's really hard. So can you give me an example, let's, let's just whatever example you want to give and start to walk us through how you would help them enter into the past, identify what it is, and start to work on healing those broken places. And then so that they could set up healthy patterns in their life now, with your help. How would that work?
Yep. So what we do is the really the first thing is whatever that struggle is, it's a struggle that we kind of keep having consistently in our life. So it transcends even just one relationship. You know, it could be a struggle with something, you know, significant, like addiction, but it could even be like relational or job loss, or just, you know, man, I have a lot of conflict in my life, or I feel like, you know, people are consistently leaving me, I don't understand what that's about,
right? I feel like I just can't win. Whatever that struggle is, we kind of take that, because that's often the catalyst for us wanting to get some help. Right is is we're fed up, we're exhausted. And so the first step is to kind of see where, where do we notice this in our past? So if we were to take, you know, okay, well, what I keep experiencing Jason is that you can't trust anyone, and people let you down. Okay. Is there at all a theme of that in your
past? And so I'll ask, and your people usually kind of smile because they're like, Ah, come on. Come on, man. And I'm like, Okay, well, I take it, you're smiling, because there is like, yeah, yeah. And I would say, Do you remember the first time you thought that, and nobody ever remembers the first time but they remember an early time? And so they'll say, Yep, I, you know, I was I was 10 years old. And, you know, my dad had just left and I just thought, man, you can't trust anybody. You
can't trust anybody. Okay, so we talked about that we process what that feels like, and what that meant, then, okay, because the thing is, is as kids were really pretty helpless, I mean, literally, were dependent on our parents. If, if we're a baby and our parents, like, I don't think I'm going to feed you. That's a big problem. Right? That That means that, you know, we're gonna have a hard time living.
And so as kids, what happens is we internalize experiences that we don't really know what to do with. And we don't have a lot of agency to change. You know, we don't say, Hey, Mom and Dad, I've been thinking about it. And I'm 10. And, you know, I just, I'd like to live somewhere else. That'd be better. That's, that just doesn't work. Well, I'd say that. But it doesn't work like that. And so what I'm going to do with a client is just identify where did that pattern or theme come from? And if it
was true, then fine. Is it still true today? Oftentimes, people will say, it's a lot less true today. Jason, it was very true, then. But it's a lot less true today. And so then we talk about, if it's not accurate or true today, what is more true? Well, what's more true is that you can't trust everyone. And people do hurt you. And I have hurt people as well. In so I can only do my best to try to protect myself. But I have to trust some people. Okay. And if
we if we now can say that? How would that statement factor into our vision of the future? Well, if I could trust some people, I might try dating, if I could trust some people, I might talk to somebody about what's going on in. So it's really kind of that past, it's kind of owning the present, and then casting a vision for the future.
I think that's really helpful. And it's helpful to walk through so people will see what it was starts to look like. And oftentimes, we like to try and do this on our own. Why is it important? I think, and sometimes even small issues, when but bigger issues. Why is it important to have someone else there with us to walk us through some of these things?
Because we just don't know what we don't know. And so the thing is, is, so many times I talk to people, and they say well, it was just normal, because that's where I grew up. Of course, that's what I knew. And then I realized at some point that it wasn't or that it
could have been better. And so I don't think we ever really get that unless we have somebody, you know, friend, a mentor, therapist, somebody on the outside, to kind of have a little bit more perspective than we did about the situation. Because that's actually what helps us grow, even if they're wrong, even if they say, Hey, here's how I'm seeing you like, oh, I don't agree with that at all. Even that reinforces okay, I'm making this choice, and I
see it differently. But we need a little bit of that friction and a little bit of that, you know, hey, what about this are perspective to actually get a little more invested in what we're thinking and feeling. I remember I had worked at a job and So I was at this job and they delivered boxes one day, and I didn't know what to do with them. And so I just let them set them by the desk, I was like, okay, here, just put this by the desk. I never did
anything with it. So for like two months, I'm like shimmying around these boxes, you know, trying not to trip over them, I just, I just learned to live with them. And I had a friend come visit me from a different department. And he took one look at the boxes, and he's like, What are you doing? What do you do it? And I'm like, Well, this is just how it is, these boxes are here. Now they're part of my life. And you just gotta like, step over this one and, and move
past this one. And he's just like, oh, man, I think I just move them over there. And as I Oh, you know, that's such a good thought that I never had. I just tried to live with it. And so I think that's a small scale example of what happens if we don't have other people in our life to say, You got to move those boxes. I'm watching you Jason trip over this and spill your coffee, you got to move the boxes. And so that is just a very valuable thing in our life that we only can get from other people.
And so if we're afraid to make those connections, one of the things that we need you talked about is honesty, vulnerability to enter into these things. What is healthy vulnerability? And then how is vulnerability done wrong? And that's not helpful.
Yeah, vulnerability is, I mean, it's super tough, because as you know, like, it's a big catch word right now is, you know, we got to be vulnerable, you got to do that. And well, totally, I think that's awesome. And I'm glad we're talking about it, it is a little more nuanced than we make it out to be. And so I kind of think of vulnerability in terms of a spectrum. And so there's, there's a place in the spectrum where there's really no vulnerability, and then there's
maximum vulnerability. And so I think if a we don't even know that we get in a lot of trouble, because we just believe vulnerabilities, maximum voltage vulnerability, and we say, hey, I want to be, you know, vulnerable with you right now. And let me tell you what I have for breakfast. And every thought I've ever had in my mind, and, and people are just like, I don't know what to do with this. This is a lot. And so what I'm talking to people about is we kind of have to qualify our
audience. Is this an audience of people that a want to hear it, be can actually receive it and see our people? You you want their opinion? If they're not, that's okay. It doesn't make them bad people. But it just means that that's probably not the place to share your deepest, darkest secret, because it's probably not gonna end well. But but it's that spectrum. And I can see you, you know, you relate, because because it's like, it just is not as easy as
you know, just be vulnerable. I talked to a lot of leaders, and they say, Well, I read all these books about if I'm going to be a good leader, I have to be vulnerable. So I went in. And, you know, I told the sales team that I was worried if we didn't hit our numbers this this month, that I'd be fired, and the company would go under, and that didn't land very well. Like, oh, yeah, I know. Yeah, that didn't land very well, you're you're right, I think you didn't
qualify the audience. Because they're probably not the people that want to hear that.
That's really good. And you have to find those people, especially I think, leaders, now as I lead an organization, I need sometimes I need to find people outside of that organization to be vulnerable with, to bare my soul with. I mean, I have, I have some people that I can, can do that. And it's really beneficial for the way that I lead and I
work and how I live my life. And if I didn't have that, I think we do stuff those feelings inside, if there's no outlet, and we, I mean, they get stored in the body in different places, they get all sorts of, you know, things are really difficult for us. So that's fantastic to be able to figure out, okay, who are these people that I'd be vulnerable with. And it's not always like full transparency to everybody all the time. If that was the case, we'd all just be
walking around naked. And nobody wants and nobody wants Nobody. Nobody wants that. I looked myself in the mirror this morning. And I said, No, not today.
I gotta find my audience. I'm not sure if I found it yet. I'm still I'm still hunting for the audience. But we'll get there.
So as you move forward, what what are some healthy patterns that we could have? Going forward? We've started to unearth our past we felt our feelings we know what it is we started to heal. We started to interact with talk to other people to walk us through these things. We have these these steps to break these patterns in our life. And now we move forward. How do we do that? How do we create some action in our life? And that's not Just stagnant and go, that was a nice reflection time for me. I'm
finished. I don't have to do any more work in the future.
Yeah, well, it's kind of like when you go to the gym and you lose some weight, and you're so excited because you're like, hey, I lost 10 pounds. And you're like, Okay, well, that was great. I'm done with the gym. Now, that doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And so when we start to get into this, what we realize is that the change, actually, to make it sustainable. It needs to be
systemic. And so as always, when I'm talking to people about is, that's fantastic and wonderful that you've kind of done some of this stuff, and you've looked at it, and you've gleaned what you can from it. Now, how do we build a life in which we have some people and some things that are going to continue to require us to show up in this way. Because if we don't do that, we'll just end up in the same
spot years later. And so the thing is, as I tell people kind of getting past your past is a lot more like brushing your teeth than it is having a procedure. It's just a daily thing. And it doesn't have to be a huge thing. But we need to have people and things in our life that just help us to continue to deal with it. And so I've got, you know, just one of my very best friends. I talk to
him at least once a week. But we talk and halfway into the conversation, we usually talk for an hour, 30 minutes, and he says, Okay, now it's your turn. And like, What do you mean? And he's like, Well, now, now it's your turn to talk like what, what's really going on with you. And we're going to spend the next 30 minutes talking about it, that relationship has helped me so much, because it's expected that we're going to do it. And that is not something I
ever had before. And so when we start to build relationships into our life, where people are going to ask questions, and they're going to be interested in invested, this becomes a habit instead of a one time thing.
I have heard, as I've experienced, that, it's really hard to make friends as an adult, and especially adult men, that adult men have a really hard time making friends and going deep, how can we engage and find somebody that would process with us? And have it be expected that we're actually going to be talking about these things?
It's a big challenge. I mean, most guys were like we make friends in high school in that set, we're like, well, that's done, check that off the list. And either we stay friends or we don't. And then that kind of ends. So I understand the struggle, both just for men, and as a man, I'm like, I totally get it. When I talked to a lot of people about those, where are
you trying to meet people? How often and so what a lot of people say is, well, I'm not really doing anything like Well, it's a little unlikely that a friend will just knock on your door and try to you know, try to have a deeper relationship. So I think where a lot of guys have success in finding this is doing activities, and creating relationships around those activities. And it does take
some time. But if you're not doing activities, and it could be whatever I mean, it could be a sporting thing, it could be a hobby thing, it could be a faith, like, doesn't really matter. But if you're not consistently getting in a group of men, to build some of those relationships, you're just not going to have them. And so I think a lot of men are like, Well, how do I kind of like, circumvent that, and not have to actually do that. And it's like,
you can't, I'm so sorry. But you like you have to be meeting people to develop those relationships.
That's good advice, find, find a hobby, go do some activities, find the people reasons or hobbies good. Yeah. 100% 100%. That is definitely what what men like to do and how we find friends. So it is very true. It's good. That's great advice. I want to know, so how how can a church community be healthy for one another, and not aggravate the brokenness of our past? So what is the church community's role in our ongoing health and growth? Yeah, that's
a big question. I would say my, my, my big answer is, I think to make space for people to feel what they're feeling and have the experiences they've had. They don't have to agree with it, but but to make space for people to have that, to meet them there, and to encourage
them. And I think also just to know your scope, as we talk about, you know, vulnerability and kind of say, not everyone is going to be the person to do that with the church isn't always going to be the right place to do some of this stuff. There's going to be things that people need a lot more specific help. And so I think acknowledging that and just saying, Hey, we're like we're here to listen, and we care and we want I encourage you, and also, this might actually be the
place where that needs to go. I think that that is the best version of what we can do is to love people where they're at and in walk with them, but not to say we're the expert if we're not the expert.
Yeah, I think that's really good to figure that out. I think, I think one of the tendencies in the church is that we believe that we should be the expert, we need to have an answer for everything. And we don't have an answer. For everything, to be honest, like, we just don't know it all. And it's okay not to know. And so, how do we get over that place of saying, I have to always have an
answer? Because I think that people often just give bad advice and say, I'm just gonna give you the answer for us, you need to hear something.
I just have to say, gesture, I love your question. So much, so good. And so it's honestly, like, just you're getting really to the heart of the thing. And here's what I'm gonna say is, if we always have the answer, then I guess we don't need God. And so for me, I don't think we're supposed to always have the answers. And and I think sometimes we have, you know, the ability to point someone in a different direction. And I think that we might desire to always have the
answer. But the problem with always having the answer and then having the wrong one is that we continue to not see people where they really need to be seen. Because we're not speaking from a place of authority, we're not speaking from a place of experience. And so what happens and something I've seen with people who are, you know, hurt by the church is they're just, they're missed, because we're talking from a
place of inexperience. And in so in that place, the person who actually needs the help feels like they're not seen. And so I think the church actually can always see people where they're at, but they might not be the authority on how to help get out of there.
That's so good. I think we need to we need to all hear that. That is so so good. Thank you. If you could tell somebody, audience, this audience, are the people that are reading your book, get pastor pass? What do you want them to get out of your book?
Well, I what I want them to get out of is to just buy like a whole case of them for all their friends and family. That is, that's really, I'm giving you a hard time. I you know, I'll tell you why I wrote the books, I wrote the book, because it's the book that I needed. When I was a young man, it had no clue really what to do. But what I really wanted to write the book for was, if I if I don't know where to start, what's the first thing I could do, this is the first thing you
could do. And so my hope is that when people read the book, they get hope that they feel hopeful and encourage, and they begin to see that these things that we feel like hold us back sometimes can actually be the catalyst to something better. And they don't have to be the things that hold us back if we don't want them to. And there is a way to walk through that with God's help, that's going to help you to get
to that next place. And so you know, if you get nothing more out of the book, I think it would just be that there's hope that you're not alone, and that there are steps you can take to make it better.
Yeah, as you say, this was the book that you needed to read when you were going through some things. And I think oftentimes our biggest pains, God can redeem them. And we those are the places of purpose later on in our life where we can help others through those same things. I've seen that happen over and over again, where people have have a huge pain, brokenness, God redeems that there gets health and healing. And as they move forward, they say, Hey, I need to help other people in this
place. And whether it's a career or just who they are. In general, I think this is just a beautiful thing that God can redeem that those places, and then give you a sense of purpose in those places, as well.
Yeah, and I think that's why God does that. That is because that it just keeps going.
Yeah, as beautiful. If you could go back Jason, to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give
sunscreen, Jason, you need to wear sunscreen a lot more often. Come on, you're pretty pretty light. complected. Okay, I'm going
to tell you that like I, but I'm glad you brought that up. And I just didn't know how to say it.
Thank you. Definitely sounds great. I think I think the thing I would have wanted to just, I think the advice I would have wanted to give is to just ask the question that you need to ask. Start there. I think for so long. I did I can speak for myself. I did this thing where I kind of tried to either my pain was too much or not had enough, or it was not bad enough or nobody could really understand. And so I did, I did all this sort of thing to really avoid just saying, Hey, here's where
I'm at. And here's what I need help with. And I wish it would be so much more complicated. But about the time I literally was like, Hey, here's where I'm at, here's what I need help with. Things started getting better. I mean, it wasn't just immediately overnight, but but that really was the catalyst. And so I think what I would want to say is like, you could even start with God, like, just have an honest prayer, and just say, God,
here's where I'm at. And I'm not here to say it's, it's a too big of a problem, or not big enough. But just here's where I'm at, here's what I'm feeling. I need help. And then where do I go from there? And, you know, if we do that, we're gonna get to the next right place.
That's beautiful. Anything you've been reading, watching lately, you could recommend?
Yeah, I you know, Jon Acuff, big fan of his book. So soundtracks is a book that he wrote pretty recently, I really liked that, because I think it captures some of what we're even talking about, just about the things we tell ourselves about the world. In. So I think that for me, is something I talk to clients a lot about, and people really relate to. And so yeah, so I would say that book, other
things. Yeah, I mean, I've been, I think I'm in a season of just trying to kind of understand, you know, what it's going to be like to put this book out what it's going to be like to take the next step. And so for me, just even just getting back in the word and being really intentional about that has been helpful, so that there can be a lot of purpose and meaning to what I'm going through.
That's great. Jason, how can people connect with you? Find your book, go get your book, buy a whole case for their friends and family? Where would you like to point people to?
Yes, so you can do that. All the major retailers are going to have it, as well as the audio book that I narrated, which was a pretty cool experience. So if you find yourself saying, I definitely want to hear more Jason's voice, you're not alone in that. And there's an opportunity for you, if you are interested. So really, you know, what this is all about is how do I work through these hard things and
get connected? If you are interested in getting better connected or having better relationships, you should know that on all the social media platforms, but a lot on Instagram. My username is Jason dot van ruler, and I share either once or twice a day relationship, mental health, self self help growth tips, to a pretty large audience. And I do that because I just want to make this stuff accessible. So if that's the thing for you, and you're on social media, I think that could be really helpful.
Yeah. And it's good. You're you're up there. If I'm scrolling through reels, yeah, every every five, every every 10 is Jason Van ruler. So it's good.
You're poor guy, and you still wanted to talk to me, you're like, I've heard this guy enough. I don't need to talk this guy.
But it's good. I really appreciate what you're doing what you're giving to the world. This book is fantastic. It's called get past your past. So I would recommend you go out and get that and also heal the broken places of your past. Go and connect with others so that you can start to live in these healthy patterns and rhythms of your life so that we can build more connection. And there's more health together in community. So Jason, thank you so much for this conversation. I
really enjoyed it. You were fantastic. So thank you so much.
Yeah, well, thanks for having me. I love talking with you. You had some amazing questions. So appreciate it.