Ep. 119 Mark Baker Returns - Freedom From Religiosity and Judgmentalism

leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. So thank you so much. Previous guests on the show have included Andrew root, Justin Bailey and Christopher watkyn. You could go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Mark Baker. I'm really excited to have Mark back on the

podcast. If you haven't listened to the previous episode I did with him. It is well worth a listen. It would actually inform some of the way that you hear this episode too. So go back, listen to that one as well. Mark Baker is professor of mission and theology at Fresno Pacific

Bible seminary. He previously was a missionary in Honduras for 10 years and a campus minister with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at Syracuse University for three years, he continues ministry involvement in Latin America through regular visits. He has written a number of books in English and Spanish, including ministering in honor shame cultures, and centered set church. His latest book is freedom from religiosity and judgmentalism studies and Paul's

letter to the Galatians. So Mark, and I sit down and we have a great conversation around Paul's letter to the Galatians. We talked about non judgmental ism, bounded, fuzzy and centered set sin as a lens in which to view Galatians our orientation to God and to each other in the body of Christ, and spiritual powers that have influenced us and the freedom that we have from them. It's a really good conversation. So enjoy my conversation with Mark Baker. Mark, welcome back to the

podcast. I'm excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.

is going on? So I think what what has happened is because Luther, through reading Paul Galatians and Romans key was someone, you know, burdened with guilt, and confused about salvation thinking was by works, he receives. Correction, Reedham salvation through reading, Paul.

And, and since that reformation time, I think many of us have tended to read Galatians as if Paul was writing the letter to people like Luther, who were struggling with guilt, and that the problem that was going on in the church at Galatia, was that there were people there as an MU Thursday who were teaching salvation is by works. So what I what I, what I say is, well, let's read letter Galatians itself, and see from the letter What are clues as to what was going on why Paul is writing the

letter. And I think a really big clue is a story that Paul recounts in chapter two, where he talks about this situation this time went in Antioch, he tells this story of the people the Christians Antioch are all leading together at one table

Jews and Gentiles. Table fellowship followers to Jesus eating together, and this is a radical thing, this is something that Jews didn't do and now but because of Jesus the journey together, Peter comes to visit he joins into the table fellowship doesn't surprise us Peters the way that you know, through Cornelius open the way. But then these visitors come from Jerusalem, who are also Jesus followers. You're what we

would call Christians. And but but these are young, these are Jewish men lived their whole life not interacted with Gentiles in this way. And they just don't have it in themselves to join the table fellowship. So they have their own little table off to the side. And they're kind of looking yeah askance critically at Peter. Because how could Peter be doing this? So and again, Paul is telling this story. This is Galatians 211 through 14 or so. And, and then what happens is Peter feels this

pressure. And this is not a text, what I imagine is, Peter is sitting there and thinking like, oh, you know, what are they going to say about in the window back when they're back in Jerusalem, and feels this pressure that many of us have felt in church kind of situations, when we were on the wrong side of a line? You know, I remember one time is a college to we went into some this is a long time ago back in the late

70s. And went on a field trip to a and I won't name the church or even Yep, doesn't believe at all what even state it was it but this is a very big church. But I walked in, you know, and this is the 70s and I have my long hair and you know, nice colorful shirt. It was a Sunday evening service I walk in, and everyone else there had Yeah, hair was above their ears. They were all wearing what the all men wearing white shirts and ties. And I immediately feel like oh, it

feel this shame. Like, oh, and it wasn't because I will leave me aside, get back to Peter. So that sort of feeling of like, Oh, you'll people are looking at me, Shane. So I think Peters feeling that he pulls back and leaves the table. And this is not just oh, you know, let's have you know, have a snack after church or something. This is where they're, they're having not just fellowship, but communion, the Lord's Supper, and then the other Jewish Christians leave from the table.

So And Paul says, Then he confronts Peter and says, Peter, what are you doing? You're not living according to the truth of the gospel. And then he says, you know, to 16 hates it through the faithfulness of Jesus, that we even as Jews, this is how we're justified brought into covenant relationship with God, the Gentiles as well. Okay, so why is Peter telling? Why is

Paul telling that story? So now, if we go back to Luther for a moment, if if the reason Paul Hall was writing a letter to the Galatians, is because there were individuals weighed down by and confused about a teaching that's teaching your say, by your works? Why is P wise, Paul telling the story? Like it doesn't have anything to do with guilt? And it's not, there's no mention of teaching. It's this. It's this question of who

belongs at the table? What do you need to live like a Jew in order to be at this table fellowship? So Paul, I think, is telling this story, because something very similar is going on in Galatia. And he is concerned that again, there's going to be this ripping apart of the community. So what I think when Paul is writing the letter, he is writing out of concern for the community, not to say there's not implications for individuals and their

belief. And I think, you know, Paul, like I don't think Luther was wrong. To come to the conclusions he did through reading the letter like, this has implications for Israel, for individuals, but I don't think that was what was driving Paul to write it. And then one other observation and all, yeah, bring this long response to a close here. And then well, you can ask the question around and then I'll go into lenses is a really important thing is everyone in the Letter to the Galatians is

already a Christian. They're already Jesus followers. So this is not that. Paul is writing to people who are not Christians and telling them the way to become a Christian is through grace, not through works. Everyone in here has already experienced God's grace, but they're sliding into this line drawing. Judgmental as my would say, over do you need to live like a Jew to truly be part of

the family of God. So some outside missionaries, other missionaries have come in who are Jewish and they're I'm seeking to persuade the Gentile believers and Galatia you need to be living like us Jews. And he had a sort of thing you know, they're like that you were I brothers experience in sort of like to truly be a Christian to be a good Christian I need to do things. So I think that is the issue that Paul is. Yeah. confronting your to say anything about that, should I go into lens? We let's

we can learn again. And oftentimes as as missionaries, as we go out, we don't often think about what has to be unlearned, before we start to learn again, and move into a different direction of how this paradigm needs to shift and

change. And so Paul's doing that, and, and to, I think even contrasting what Paul is saying and Galatians reminds me of, of First Corinthians where we're Paul is really concerned about the the rich eating all the food before the poor calm, that there is division in the body that he wants people at the table to be

there together. It seems to be of critical importance to to Paul, not just here in Galatians, but in other letters that he has written that this unity that we have, Jew and Gentile, slave and free, whoever it is that we're together seems to be this is that this is one of the big things that Paul is really after that we don't lose that, because that's how how the world knows who Jesus is, is the way that we love one another. Right?

things are. And then how we could that informs our reading of Galatians.

better way of saying it. And so one is a group draws a line and it has a certain set of characteristics, qualities beliefs, draws a line. And then we have a circle and whoever's within that who who adheres to these things complies. They're part of the group and the group

just look bucks. And you could feel this is what these people were doing, who arrived from Jerusalem, they like their line was, you don't eat with Gentiles, these Gentiles need to be circumcised they need to live like Jews in order to be inside our line, we can eat with them. So that's that's called a bounded group bounded SATs, borrowing from math. So a

bounded set. Church is this line that's drawn and whoever complies is within and the others without and this has, especially in churches, I mean, there are there's, you know, bounded groups in society that it's not like an evil thing to be bounded. There are things I tell my seminary students, your bounded group you applied, you paid your tuition you got you know, your GPA is high enough you're in. But in churches, it tends to go in the direction of judgmentalism. And this sense of

We're in, we're better. And then a lot of shaming that goes on as you get closer to the line or going over the lunch. Therefore, I have some people that they don't want this judgmentalism. And clearly the line is the problem. So say get litter, get rid of the line, and you erase the line. And then what you have that is a fuzzy group, and it takes care of the judgmentalism problem, but it creates new problems. So fuzzy group. Yeah,

it's it. Its sense of identity dissipates, because there's not something What's Yeah, it's not very clear who we are why we are very hard to work for conversion in a fuzzy group, because what are you calling the people to? Ai? Just ethically discipleship? It's a low bar. It's about tolerance, you know, not

upsetting anyone. And that's Yeah, I heard someone recently say, you know, you don't say to your wife, or your, your girlfriend, whatever, like, oh, I tolerate you like, yeah, that's not going to take you very far. So love is a much higher bar. That's true. My wife would not like that. No. So Hiebert offers a third alternative, so bounded and and fuzzy, you're on the same continuum. They're just different extremes. And so we go

for it. Well, it's a different way of discerning whether some belongs is rather than looking at their relationship with certain standard beliefs. Look at their orientation towards a shared center, center. And so in a church, our center is Jesus. And what a centered set Church does is it looks at Are you heading towards Jesus, or heading away and know that we're

heading toward belong. And so a great thing about a centered set is it can still have take beliefs behaviors, gives them an important sense with seriousness like it matters. But but my security isn't in the line of where I'm at in relation Islam, my security is in the center. And there's more room for process for journeying per pilgrimage, because we see someone who Yeah, they may be stumbling not doing so well, but they're oriented towards the center. We're going to work with

them. And just a quick example, from Galatians, even in one, Paul, so Okay, so Peter does it he leaves the table. Paul is really upset with him. But what does Paul do? So like I asked my students, if Paul was fuzzy set, what would you do? And some say, well, we wouldn't do anything. Like because he doesn't run it Peter feel bad. Or he might say, Hey, Peter, you know, like, I don't think that's too cool. But hey, you know, you're doing your thing. I'll do mine. Let's try

to get along. That'd be fuzzy and bounded would be would have an argument about the line and would say, oh, wait a minute, you guys, that is not what's important. You know, it's this is what's important. And it's it's and so rather than saying, you know, instead of circumcision, what's really is important is, you know, are we tithing or something that down determines that's a table. But what does Paul say? He says, and it's it's directional language, he says to Peter, you are not

walking, heading. It is ortho paedo, something like that in Greek, you know, where we get the orthopaedic. So it's your feet are not heading in the direction of truth. You're, you're the wrong way. Turn around Peter. So he confronts him, right. So a centered set still takes things seriously. But he confronts them. And just yet one other little example of this hint, abyss and Galatians. There's two different times in Galatians, where Paul says, neither circumcision nor

uncircumcision is the thing. And so about a group that just like shorts their circuit, because you're having this argument about, you know, the other missionaries that come and say, You, you Jews, you Gentiles have to get circumcised. And Paul is saying, No, you don't you don't have to live like Jews. And so but then when he says, neither circumcision and uncircumcision Well, that's like, Well, okay, well, what is it and so he's pointing a word about something else here, then fighting over

this wine. So yeah, so that's another so I with intentionality, sought to read Galatians through the lens of centered, yeah, bounded, fuzzy and centered with two aims. One is to understand those concepts better in a Biblical sense, but also to see how that might help us. I might illuminate the reading of Galatians

And we see it individually. But there is a sort of status that is happening in in Galatia. At the moment, when, when, or back in Antioch, when, when Paul is telling the story of Peter coming in, and the Jews coming in, they're sitting at separate tables, we have an elevated status. You know, the Gentiles have a lower status, there. There seems to be the status type of mentality that is permeating through the the culture. But we have it here in

the West. We don't think about it, I don't think as much it doesn't, it doesn't permeate our thoughts. But we I think we live it out. And that's what a bounded set is. Can you think, can you talk a little bit about what is the difference then, between status keeping and keeping with the status quo and that boundary set? And then the difference between then having Jesus as the Center or our identity is something else? Is identity and status a little different?

nine. And so they read this, this is from the NIV, it says. So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, and then the next verses, and all who rely on observing law are under a curse. And that English translation of have faith, I mean, that it's understandable that people translate well, because it, it flows better in English, but more literally, and, you know, even like your New American Standard, or King James, it's those who are of

faith. And so again, that's not you know, that's not smooth and English. Now. So it's understand that they do the other way. But what if we go with that way? So when I was working in this, Jay Lewis, Martin, especially he emphasized, he put identity in here. And he said, so when you say those are of fate, that's, that's identity, language. And, and so he offers this, his translation, paraphrase of it is

the other who's koovs. So the for nine, it's those whose identity is of in the faithfulness of Jesus, those who are of the faith they are, this isn't their identity, and in contrast, the others those whose identity is derived from observance of the law. And so, so he's expanded a little bit, but it's, it's basically those who are circumcision, those who are of the faith of Jesus. So there is just an identity sense is where are you putting your

identity? And so back to what you said, Joshua, the bounded group, and I think this is really significant. Observation is usually lots of churches would say, our center is Christ. Like that's, yeah, it's common Christian language. But what happens in a bounded group, it's not that people don't believe Christ is their center. Yeah, they started out going, Oh, no, Christ did not our center. But when you're secure, you naturally put your attention

where your security lies. And in a bounded group, the line is where your security is. What tells me where I'm in, if you go back to that example, all those people in there with their white shirts and black tie shorthand airs, that that is, that's their suggested telling them they belong and so they put importance that their identity is in their white shirt, black tie or ties Um, and so Paul is saying, Are you of the circumcision group? Is that your identity or you have the Christ

faithfulness? Is that where your identity that so then but into status and this is where just in working through this anew working on this book I thought more about okay status honor and shame and I read a dissertation by David Taylor who worked at reading Galatians through honor shame lens and Yeah, and he's he's a much better Bible scholar than I am and got into great depth on both honor shame culture at that time but also into some some Greek issues and

in Galatians. And what yeah, this there's this in Galatians six so there's this this passage where while we're Paul says, This is verse 12. Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross

of Christ. And so when he said, reading that through an honor shame lens, so yeah, I read persecution, I think of, you know, martyrs or someone being put in prison button, but he's saying, you know, at that time, yeah, in an honor, shame, sense persecution is a losing honor. And so you say, These people, they are seeking to score religious points, by getting you to live in the right way so that other Jewish people will be

impressed with them. Jewish Christians will think, Oh, good, you got these people live like us and other Jewish wool will, other Jews who are followers of Jesus will not be as negative towards them because they're behaving better. They're not. It's not a scandalous and Paul says, This isn't they don't really care about you. It's, it's their honor that matters. That's what they're cared about.

But then there's this is fascinating because the next verse, not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised, that they may boast about your flesh so that, you know, they're having this achievement. Then he says, verse 14, may I never boast except in the cross of

Lord Jesus Christ. And, and so yeah, previously, I thought that that's kind of oxymoronic, you know, man, I never boast accepting that and think, Well, okay, well, Paul's just using that word, because he just said about them. But you know, boasting is wrong, Paul doesn't really want us to boast. But um, but David Taylor, he points out x in the, in their context. So for us boasting is wrong, like

we shouldn't boast. But he said in their honor culture at the time, boasting was not a was not an automatically bad thing. Boasting was a way that you're discerning what's honorable or not. So I say something. And so I gave the example in the book, I say, it's like, it's like a little little child comes up and says, or a couple of kids come up and say to the teacher, the parents say, oh, look what we

did. And then how does the parent responds, so if the parent or the teacher responds positively, that lets everyone else in the room know, oh, this is a good thing to do. And so David Taylor says, That's how boasting work in their time someone would say, you know, something I've done. And then if, if people respond positively, it informs this is appropriate behavior. So what is Paul saying? He says, I boast in the cross. Okay, now, I'm on

your status question. Okay. So status in Galatians, Paul says, I boast in the cross. But what did Jesus do with the cross? And it's, it's the, it's the total, flipping upside down of the status system of the day. And so where, as you know, here's this instrument of shame. And Jesus is willing to be shamed, for our salvation, Jesus willing to be shamed, and his ministers through his life, not just now across to include the excluded.

So what is Paul boasting, and he's boasting in an honor system that derives its identity derives its status, not by putting others down, but by lifting others up. And so it's this radical semi status. So it's not a rejection of honor, shame culture, but it's a redefinition of what's honorable, and my status is in the way of Jesus, which is this Yeah, ironic thing that it's upside down to the way the world grabs status. I'm so and so then you go back and read Romans or

Galatians 328. You know, in Christ, there's neither agree nor Jew, slave or free male or female. And it's because the status system has been undone and I don't need to put someone else down, my status is in Jesus. Okay, that was a short sermon, Allah, I'll set that

at the table. And that's, that's pretty scandalous for for a lot of people that are living with judgmentalism, or religiosity at this place where this is our, our people, this is how you get in. Or, and if you want to look like us. You could be in, but Jesus says, Now, anybody's invited the table, but that'd be moving towards me. I'm the way so as the he moves, as we move towards Jesus, we're at the table. So what does that how does that inform the way that we start to, to live in the world?

How do we create open tables that are not fuzzy, but they're towards Jesus? And they're, they're radically inclusive? And we get rid of this judgmentalism? But we could be about Jesus Himself.

attack the boundedness. Yeah. But fuzzy does that. But we don't just erase the line to say, everyone in we erased the line to say everyone is welcome. And yeah, and I mean, I love your phrase that mean, Jesus is radically inclusive, but not universally. So. And this is where, again, I think Galatians as a whole, the letter is so helpful, because Paul, both has this confrontation of wine, drawing religiosity and saying that is not the way Peter, stop.

But then if you look at the last two chapters of Galatians, what's it talking about? It's, I mean, first, it's the work of the flesh. And it's all these things, avoid all this, you know, envious and backbiting and slander and drunkenness, and then root of the Spirit. And then Galatians six, one, you know, if someone is if someone sins, then come alongside of them gently and correct them, and, you know, carry each other's burdens. So I think,

yep, for us. It is this sense of radical welcoming, because the place of the table Galatians would tell us to 16 is because of what Jesus has done. It's not based on my achievement. So we're radically inclusive, because we can say to anyone else, you are welcome to the table. This table is set by Jesus, not by what we've done. But then at that table, we are where's our identity? We are people of Jesus. And so Paul makes very clear calls us to

live in the way of Jesus. So our because of having our identity in Jesus rather than the line. We can we can allow for Yeah, I wouldn't say more permeability messiness on the edges, like we can be more inviting people without without this tension of What's this say about me? But it is, but we're centered on Jesus, and that has implications so it's not just, hey, yeah, anything goes?

and powers. And this is a really surprising couple sentences in chapter four of Galatians. Where Paul is, is talking and so first, in where is this in? Yeah, four, three. He says, When we were children, we were in slavery under the stoy chair. And soy soy che is spiritual forces, basic principles, spiritual, elemental forces, different ways of translate that but he's saying we were under

these things in slavery. And so here he's saying, we Jewish people, then a few verses later, talking now to the Gentile believers. He says in verse eight formerly when you did not go no God, you were slaves to those who are by nature, not God. But now that you know God or rather your God, how is it you turning back to these stoy? Che at the same thing, these spiritual forces, okay, so just think about this for a moment. So Paul is saying, I used to be we Jews were enslaved to these

spiritual forces. And now he's saying and you, you Gentile, because you used to be in this paganism and stuff. Why are you turning back to these enslaving forces? And I feel like I imagine them wanting them to, you know, sort of raise their hand at that point and say, oh, wait a minute, Paul. You know, we're not going back to paganism. You know what this is, we're in this Christian way. These other missionaries, they're Christians. They're just

helping us. But But Paul is equating mean this The surprising thing, he's equating this former way of Judaism that he was zealously about their former paganism. And this new expression of Christianity that these other missionaries have brought that includes a sense of, you know, living by Jews, and he puts them all as enslaving forces. Now, Paul is not there trashing the Old Testament, or trashing the way

of Jesus. But But what I think what it would it gets at is there are these, this spiritual power of religion, which grabbed ahold of good things, such as the law in the Old Testament, or, you know, our Christian faith today, and it turns it into an enslaving force. And so, I think, to your question, what

are we freed from? I think this chapter four points to we are liberated from this spiritual power that confuses and this is where you know, Luther is certainly on the right track, it confuses what is the orientation? What's the work that's significant? Is it God's work, liberating us or my work? Our work to try to please God, that's religion? Is it? Me, bounded group drawing a line to get my security out of these things we've done? Or is it putting my security in what God

has done? So I think, all liberates us. Not just from wrong information about salvation, gospel of grace, but also liberates us from this. And in see to go the way of the spiritual powers that that enslave I mean, we just one last thing I'd say about that, which, again, when when, what does it liberate us from to the point I made everyone in this letter has already you know To use our language has received Jesus as their Savior, they've already

experienced grace. And what that says to me then is I need to keep hearing this liberating message of Galatians, I need to continue to be liberated from the spiritual forces, because my natural tendency is to go towards judgmentalism. You know, when I was growing up, it was my list of, you know, don't drink smoke dance. And that's what a way I used to judge other people that are good Christians. And but today, I am most likely to become judgmental about someone

else's judgmentalism. But it's still judgmental, as of right, it's still me feeling superior, like, Oh, look at those people how, how bounded they are. And as soon as I say that, I've just drawn a line, so but through the work of Jesus, I can be free of that.

can see it. And we then we go to you to church, or other people go to other religious institutions for answers to, you know, where, where did we come from? Who is God? Where are we going after we die? All these these cosmic answers the questions. Often I think of the West, we exclude the spiritual forces, the spiritual powers, this middle parts that we often don't wrestle with, which a lot of the rest of the world wrestles with all the time, by the West, we we just ignore it.

And we often think some of our our problems are not spiritual in nature. They're we're not, you know, moving through by different spiritual forces, or they're, we're not being influenced by, we just have to change our behavior, and we're going to be okay. Or we have to think on eternity more, and

we're going to be okay. So, how, how do we get in the West set a more robust view of the spiritual powers to know that that's part of what's happening within our church bodies that we need to to wrestle with?

relation to this. Based on what you were just saying, is to start putting my competence in the tool itself, like if you, you know, if you have this diagram, and you start thinking about orientation, where the center, then you're golden, like, this is good. And whereas, yeah, I think Paul and Galatians calls me to recognize it's not just this diagram, that's going to save us and keep us on the

right path. Because there are spiritual forces, that are seeking to take advantage of our tendencies in this direction, our you know, our longing for status and identity, and they will grab hold of things and use them so I can't just teach

bounded, Buzzy and center. I also need to teach preach, and for myself, pray and live out that through that there really are powers that use these things, and I need to rest and rely on the victory through Jesus, you know, death and resurrection that brings the ability to be able to Yeah, so if I'm, you know, in back in that situation of Peter there at Antioch, keener could have said, could have thought about resurrection power and said, I am three it doesn't matter what

those people think like But but instead he gave in to the power to the force. So I have that same thing. And, and I need that the spiritual victory of Jesus, not just my handout sheet PDF that I just invite you all to look at

Galatians? Because I was reading through the lens of Luthers experience, I thought, Oh, this is a letter for people who are confused about salvation by grace or salvation by works. And so when I encountered some of that situation, so let's read Galatians. But it was never for me. It was for them that like, they're the ones that are confused. So I, I'm doing a Bible saying Galatians For them,

not for me. So I guess that another thing I would like to highlight is Galatians is a letter of import for all of us, not just them. So I Yes, I read it now, for me for us, not just them. So that's one thing. The other thing is, and I first Yep, became excited about Galatians in a context of strong legalism in Honduras, but also a place where there was a lot of indifference to what I'd call a holistic gospel. And so I was, I was working in a very, very poor neighborhood is for a squatter

neighborhood. And there were, like, 10 different churches in the neighborhood. And all of them were fairly indifferent, or maybe even hostile to, yeah, to talking about Christian responsibility towards the poor and injustices. I mean, they would, there would be some charity to people in our churches, but in the sense of, you know, getting into the neighborhood and addressing poverty, and yeah, it just was not part of there. And so why is

this going on? And, and what I, what I came, yeah, and I won't do the whole thing here. But but my my sir, my thesis became, oh, I think, I think we there was a sense of viewing, you know, heinous, or Isaiah 58, or even, you know, Luke four of the con to preach to the, you know, the Gospel for the poor and the blind and the liberate the captives, to see that, oh, those are good things, but not central, because we got our

Gospel from Paul. And so I think another thing I would add to the list, you said is, if we can appreciate that Paul's Gospel is yes, strongly concerned about an individual bulls relationship with Jesus, and also strongly concerned about the community, as you'd already said, and then also an owl that community is living and that that then I think, it enables us to read other things. It enables the the gospel to be bigger and broader in a holistic way, in Paul, and not just in Luke for him,

Isaiah, things like that. So that'd be another thing I would add.

interesting. Let's see. And yeah, I don't know. You know, I'm watching the Chosun right now, like many other people, and it has me just curious about Yemen thinking more about Jesus disciples. So I would take it Yeah, not one particular but should be fun to have a disciple of Jesus at the table. And let me see. That's three eye goggles. Shaka Liu is a French sociologist, theologian had a big impact on me as well. So what was that four or five? I?

is written for lay people. Not a lot of scholarly footnotes and things like that discussion questions at the end. So just yet, put that on the, the genre of the book.

identity. Look at it through what's what Paul is really after, as we're coming together as the Body of Christ, that it's written to a group of believers, and not just pre believers that are wanting to enter into the relationship with Jesus. So thank you for contrasting what we typically think of what what it looks like as Luthers view of Galatians and just reading it for, for what it is. So thank you for this conversation. It was really good. I loved it.