Ep. 115 Eun K. Strawser - Centering Discipleship

a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app you're using right now and hits five stars. Thank you so much. Previous guests on the show have included Jr Woodward, Neil Cole and Jesse Cruikshank. You could go back and listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is an que Strawser en is the CO vocational lead pastor of Makkah, Allah Oh, it means presence in Hawaii. I think

that's a great name. Micah, Allah O is a non denominational missional community multiplying in Honolulu, Hawaii. She is also a community physician at K O pono. And an Executive leader at the v3 movement, and has written a fantastic new book called centering discipleship. And and I have a great conversation around discipleship and community. How do we imitate Jesus together so that we can look like him? And we can move toward our neighbor and mission.

We talked through the elements of formation and rhythms and examples that move our community towards one that centers Jesus and discipleship towards him. There are a lot of gems and in story, I know you're going to enjoy it. Here's my conversation with John K. Strawser. And welcome to the podcast. I'm really excited to have you on thank you so much for joining me.

to be as concise as possible. I think that honestly, I think that discipleship and centering discipleship isn't a unique question that that I have come up with, I think that probably, if you're involved in any way in the church, you know, whatever level of leadership, I think that this question comes up in some version or form at some point in a leaders life, so whether it's at a lower level of of leadership, or the at the

highest level. So I think that the the question around discipleship is not a new one, I think figuring out a little bit more defining it putting, you know, meat on the bones to what it actually is, has been probably a journey that many leaders are still going through. I think so. I think for me, discipleship has always been really, really important. It probably started out with just like, one on one discipleship. I've discipled. In a 10 year span, I disciple 50 different

people. And usually people are just like, that's amazing, you know, and must be like a discipleship guru. Right? It must be really, really important to her and things. But I think that I've been in church planting for over a decade now and specifically to in church planting world. I think that discipleship, doing it one on one has been much more akin to like, self help kind of things or like mentorship programs,

right? Like, we probably borrow a lot more from our current culture, and what feels like cultural needs and what we actually think discipleship is so I think that that I first noticed a need for centering discipleship, defining it a little bit more clear. Gains, gathering tools around it really

being equipped for it. When I realized like most of the people who have been discipled in that one on one and people feel so loved, right, like one on one discipleship is awesome because you feel so loved by that leader, right? But like, you know, a lot of times, people like still continue to make like unwise decisions, stay stuck and like in an And immaturity. Sometimes it feels like if you just stick with this one relationship that that covers over being a part of a whole

community, right? Different things like that. So I think that that, you know, picking up and noticing those kinds of things, it didn't really matter at that point, like, how many people you know, I had discipled, right, it's really looking at are actually these people is discipleship, actually making a difference in these

people's lives, right. I think my journey is also a little bit more unique, because I'm not a typical pastor, I'm co vocational, I'm a physician, you know, I have a quote unquote, different kind of day to day job, I don't do ministry as my full time vocation. And I've always I've always been doing life that that way, and being a part of a pastoral team and, and being a physician at the same

time. So, you know, noticing, you know, from a health perspective, being a community member, community leader, and not just being in this vortex of church world, right? How, you know, really, really said like, oh, helped me to kind of identify, oh, I think that a lot of what's happening in church field is very akin to, to mentorship. And that probably

isn't what discipleship is. So I think that a lot of these questions were coming around, just being able to straddle both both kinds of ways of living, you know, different vocations. Even living in different parts of the world, I, you know, I was born in South Korea, my family immigrated to Philly, did, most of my growing up, had all my babies, you know, got married, had all my babies in Philadelphia, and then we moved

to Hawaii. So being a transitioning person, in many ways in Hawaii, a displaced person, I knew that discipleship couldn't just be like a cookie cutter kind of method, right? What works in in Philadelphia, as an east coaster, people love to read. intellectual value is really, really high, right? But but in Hawaii, it's like cific GPA, it's, you know, people are much more laid back, a lot of the value points aren't the

same, right? So so to Cyprus, your hat has to look different in the unique places that we live. So I think those kinds of things helped me to figure out, begin to want to go into that journey of like, hey, I really would love it. If we could figure this out, and what they are the actual tools that leaders actually need to be necessary just in their communities?

God and love people? Yes. Joshua Johnson. That's what I'm saying. I think that Jesus is called to his disciples is, I think it's in two different things. I think it's Imitate me, as I imitate the father, but imitate me in the context of community. I think if you take those two things down, I think that's what Jesus is calling us to. If you think about, like, you know, the very well overused sayings that Jesus has said, but like people use these things in in when we're talking about

discipleship, right? The, you know, the Great Commission, you know, all authorities been given to me, I'm sending you guys out, go and make disciples of all nations, I'm going to be with you forever. Right? Like when we're when we're kind of looking at that Matthew 20 passage, I think that people really miss a point. You know, I think earlier on when missionaries from the US and the UK were being sent out in droves. Right to to the ends

of the earth, right? It really felt like an emphasis was on that go right with to the best of your ability just go out, we're going to send you out, go go go go go and convert people so that they will identify as Christians over other religions. Right. There's there there there isn't anything wrong with that.

But I think that as we have seen probably in the state and then your own experience with with being in you know, outside of the US right, that there have been remnants probably more of colonizing culturally certain parts of the world than it has been about making imitators of Jesus within context of community. That is are unique and for the flourishing of that, that unique part of the world.

So I do I do think that that's like a two part piece that Jesus emphasizes equally, that it's imitate him, not anybody else. It's imitate him. But But this only is done well, in a loving community that is out for the renewal of their their neighbors and their neighborhoods. And then community that little did they actually, in real life live in?

Jesus together. And I had to repent as a as a white mission leader from the west and say, Hey, I repent that we've actually exported something that wasn't completely holistic, it wasn't completely there. So as you sat as people went sins go, there are all sorts of people that did incredible things, and amazing things. And discipled well, but there's also people that also just transported their own Western culture, or any other culture and transplanted it onto the the culture in the

other part of the world. And it didn't really work. And we can see remnants of this not working very well. But that core piece in the great commission is to make disciples. So that's the the the core is to make disciples, and Jesus tells us how to do it. Right. He says, to teach people to obey everything I've commanded. So basically, everything that I'm commanding everything that I am, we want you to actually put into practice and do it, and you're

going to help others do it. And, you know, he's saying this to a group of people. And he's not saying it to individuals. And so because we've, I have and you have been raised in the West, we have a very individualistic mindset of it is personal one on one discipleship. How can we move into a place where it is communal? It is about the community, and the community is shaping and molding people into the likeness of Jesus?

light, right? He called it a hot, so a life that like that of self giving love. And I do really think that this is part of that, especially for a leader in thinking about what is the most self giving act of love that I can probably do in my own leadership for the congregation and the community, I lead in

love. I think that it is harder to sit down and really think about how can I actually center discipleship, and if leaders don't do it, intentionally, practically put it into their structures, really think about who you know, all of that, right resources, all of that, then discipleship was just, at best be programmatic, that's a one off kind of have a class you know, a series or lesson, you know, in the in the, you know, a calendar year, or it'll just

remain on on the periphery. And we'll say being that, oh, it just means like, grab that one person who's a little bit older than you and, and get into a discipleship, you know, relationship with that person, and they'll just stay there. And I just think if, if, if discipleship has so much to do with imitation, and a community that is being formed together, so that they're on mission together, if that's what discipleship really, really is,

right? Then imitation we all know, happens from the front. Yeah, people aren't going to church because they want to go and imitate, you know, the person down down down the Pew from them or down the street from that, you know, unconsciously or consciously people tend and a look at the leader from the at the front, and they want to know, how can they become more like that person? Because that person probably is imitating Jesus. It's not a wrong assumption,

right? It hopefully, right? In 99% of cases, you know, leaders in the church, like had this purity of heart, they really want to follow hard after Jesus. That's why they feel a call. That's why they're doing it and they want to know how can we begin to transform and transition a community so that they're on mission together for the sake of their neighbors imitating Jesus? I know people want to do that. But I think that the the tricky part is how, right that that is one of the

hardest questions to answer. And that's I think, from center discipleship. You know, the book is called that, because we already know that, you know, the first question is, do you think discipleship is at the center of your church? And how do you know this? And there actually are metrics and criteria points to know if something is at the center of your of your community, or church or congregation? Or if something

else is right. So it helps to clarify it and not help make us think that like, oh, yeah, discipleship is super important to me. But you know, I'm not really quite sure concretely how it's happening in my, in my church context, right? I want people to do like, I know, if it's at the periphery, or if it's at the center, I know where, where discipleship is,

and how we're moving it. But I do think that if the leader is not at the helm of making discipleship center centered in their church, it probably won't

happen. It's not the thing to give off to like, you know, a discipleship pastor, you know, any equipping pastor, you know, there has to be some sort of shared responsibility, I think and calling to be like, Okay, if we change the the, our scope and our vision to center discipleship, then then there has to be structural changes, resourcing changes, you know, leadership changes, right? These kinds of things have to happen.

do, right? If there are our delegate double responsibility is enrollment, tough, please give them away, right, raise up leaders, you know, through those avenues, but I think this is something at least in the beginning, if you're moving to centering discipleship, that leaders focus on three things, its formation, a rhythm, and examples. So what I mean by that is formation is Do you know, and it's okay, if it's messy and unclear, and it's not perfect or complete from the get go. Right?

But do you know actually what it is that your people probably need to be formed in, in the unique local place that you live in? And they live in understanding what are the pieces of spiritual confidence that they may be as a as a whole community that may be lacking it

or really strong? And what are social competence is that as Christians in their unique local place that they're strong in or they're a little bit lacking in and really actually have a pathway, discipleship pathway, so that your people are really formed in your unique location? I think that's super key. So formation, I think the second thing is rhythm. Rhythm has to do with structuring rhythm has to do with how much discipleship is, is centered in a given

calendar year, right? Most people again, want to do it in like a Sunday school class or Wednesday night, you know, gathering or sermon series, right? I think that highlighting how and really intensely being, being mindful of a rhythm before discipleship in, let's say, a 12 or 18 month timeframe is really

helpful. Because when you put something on the calendar, it means that you value it, you know, calendar or calendar is in our, in our, in our bank accounts are probably the two main ways to show what a person really values in their life. It shows what we put our time and our resources in. Right. And so it's the same for a church right? A church calendar that emphasizes and is intentional about putting discipleship structured into it is really key. And then the last part is

examples. That means that if people are trying to if discipleship, you know, in a nutshell is imitation, and in the Once it's a community, then we need to know, who are the people besides me that other people can actually imitate as they imitate Christ. Right. So I think formation of an intentional rhythm and really setting out finding examples, in your myths are the first first steps to take.

place of formation. Since you have experienced in both Philly and in Hawaii, can you tell me what does it look like then to start to disciple community in Philadelphia, and their specific place and what they need and how they grow and move forward towards Imitation of Christ, and in Hawaii, and their specific place of how they grow as well and contrast those two?

mosques. So you know, I you know, I live right down the street from from my church, but I also live on the in the opposite direction of my block. I also live a street down from a mosque. So, you know, for us uniquely in that one pocket of neighborhood in West Philadelphia was that our discipleship ought to also include some competences around how do we actually neighbor well, with with other other people with other other from other faith backgrounds, right?

Because we live in West Philly, we do live amongst Muslims and Buddhists. And there's a whole hodgepodge of people who live there, right? Internationally, right? There's a huge Ethiopian refugee population in West Philadelphia at that time, and so we had to know very concretely who our neighbors were. Yeah, if you ask that question, it has to also include do I actually know anything

about Islam to lie? No, actually anything up culturally about about Ethiopians, right, those are competencies that help every disciple in our church know how to neighbor, and not just be like, How do I tell somebody

about the Roman road? Okay, and then, you know, what if the person you're talking to has no idea what you're talking about, you know, do you know, do you even, you know, I think one of the number one questions about about Christians is like, that I asked him, I'm like, you know, one way that you know, if your people are being discipled is, do they actually have non Jesus following friends? Yeah. If they don't, if they don't, there is a lack of a social competence.

They may know everything about the Bible, but they may be lacking in a social competence about how to actually love their neighbors. Yeah, you know, so So I think Westfield affiliate was unique because of the the actual location right? I think another another thing about Philly is that the, the, the formation piece, I can include other books. People love to read, right, especially West Philly, the place I would bet that I lived in was right next to

University of Pennsylvania. So there's a lot of like, scholarly minded people, right? People love to to read and consume information, right, all those kinds of things. So, you know, it was helpful that that, you know, that that discipleship pathway could include a lot of other readings so that everyone could like there could be readings about apps from an apostolic leader, there could be readings from a prophetic leader, right? Those kinds of

things. Other people be like, yeah, there are loads of other people that I can also imitate, it's not just one person. So that was helpful. It's a very, very, very well read, neighborhood of super diverse internationally, Faith wise neighborhood in West Philly. You know, fast forward years later, and here I am in Honolulu. And it's very different. There isn't a huge value in Hawaii about how well read you are, but it is more of a value about how you are as a as a family member.

Happy you know, have you been that person who has been a faithful friend since you know your friends from middle school? Right? These are the things people care about. The thing that people ask in Hawaii is Hey, are you from here? And what high school did you graduate from? That people don't care if you what college you went to, you know, none of those things they just want to know where did

you grow up? You know, and and you know, what, which high school did you graduate from, you know, So there's a huge value for a long time, loyalty of relationships, right? And so, you know, the the competent, different social competence for Jesus followers here imitating Jesus here in Hawaii is that can you actually have room to have new relationships? If God's family is constantly growing? If God's whole point is, is constantly bringing in new adoptions every single day,

right? That that's like how the Kingdom of God grows? Right? Then do you actually have room to have relationships and deeper relationships and caring compassion for new people? Yes, those people who have transitioned to Hawaii that you kind of give stink eyes sometimes because you know, you don't know, you don't know how long they're gonna stay for. Right? But But do you okay, because you imitate Jesus? Will you be a person who is a little bit countercultural, and love

your new neighbors? Yeah, you know, and not just your your friends from from high school. Right. So that is a that is a difference. In Hawaii. I think another part is how to, you know, one of my big, big things is out. And you know, you know, I say in the book that, Oh, everybody has a unique way to form their discipleship pathway.

But I'm just going to tell you right now, Joshua Johnson, that if you don't have a way to put the full gospel into that equipping formational piece for every follower of Jesus, in your context, you're missing something, I'm just gonna say that, you know, so but how you do it, or how you do it, the minute that you do it by it's going to be very unique to your place. So Hawaii comes from, from a history of a lot of oral

language, oral storytelling. So the way that that, you know, I would be equipping a group, a community of people here in Hawaii through how did they grow their competence in the full gospel, it's been really, really different than people in in West Philadelphia, people must really they want to know predominate the history of it. They want to understand what what does redemption mean, they want to know what what those words are, the history behind it, why did have to be sacrificial? Right?

They want to learn more about Jewish history, actually, because there are Jewish people who live in West Philadelphia, they have Jewish people as friends, we don't really have that here in Hawaii, right? They don't really care that much about the historical perspective of it, they don't buy they really care about how he tells a

story. Yeah. And so we spend a lot more time about how are you able to, I know that you have been growing in and being formed in the ways of Jesus through the full gospel, because you begin, you're one, you're able to articulate it in your own words, you practice telling it to a friend or a family member, you know, and you can take pieces from the full gospel that applies to your own life, and you can share about them. So a lot of it is more revolved

around storytelling. And all of a sudden, people actually do it. Every single disciple in our church here in Hawaii, from eight years old and up. Because we make me weak, that's discipleship pathway, it easy enough for an eight year old,

right? To the 86 year old, you know, grandmother, you know, in our community, everybody knows how to share the full gospel in their own words, they have a commonality in in in knowing which pieces are key, but they also don't have to have the fret of so I know the Bible enough. That's like a big thing in Hawaii all. I don't know, because I don't know the Bible enough, right? I don't know the history enough, right? I don't know what these words mean.

Enough. So it's just taking away that I think intellectual stigma, you know, or that that that biblical scholar barrier away so that people can actually live into what does it look like to live into the gospel in your real life?

year old could do it. But make it in such a way where it could actually then grow into a mind the depth and understanding of those ways where it could be like you could study for, for years, and in Philadelphia, on one of the commands of Jesus and never hit the bottom of it, but to be able to follow it. Stories how to walk in what how do we live this out in the story of our community. It's simple enough that that eight year olds

can do it and follow it. But it is deep enough where we could mined the depths for ever and not really get to the bottom of it and continue to grow in loving maturity. towards Jesus and imitating him.

way. But if we actually think about it, if discipleship is really meant to be in the context of community, a community grows together, your your hope and expectation is that if you're a Jesus falling community that is, is focused and really faithful to the neighborhood that you live in, there is an expectation, there should be an expectation that you're going to be there for a long time. That's your hope,

right? We want to see the flourishing of our neighborhoods and, and neighbors and cities together in our time, right, that's what we want to see. If that's happening, that pressure of saying that everything needs to be completed in you know, 12 months time, in a formation way.

That was that gets thrown out the window, we purposely go through the same themes in our discipleship pathway, every single year, but because there's an expectation of longevity of a community, because our this context, in my current context, in our church, we do we do missional community models, so they're all you know, dispersed

throughout Oahu. In different neighborhoods, there's a center discipleship core, there's center group of disciples, who are committed to an identified space of mission or, or a

neighborhood or community. So if they're all doing doing this, they like, for instance, one of our missional communities they this year, they're just gonna focus on the theme of the community, what does it mean to actually be because we're imitating Jesus, you know, and a really important part is, the world will not know who we who he is, unless we figure out how it is to actually love one

another. Right? If Jesus is banking, His entire ministry, you know, be it all on this point, that we better know how to actually do this. So one of the missional communities just focusing on that, for the entire year, they're just focusing on do we know how to love one another. loving one another means that we enter into conflict bravely. We don't

dismiss it. Hawaii culture loves to avoid Pong, like, you know, but we're going to be countercultural, we're going to try to enter into it, we're going to be equipted having words to know how to do this, well together, honor one another

in it, right? Those kinds of kinds of things we're actually going to use there, there's a term in Hawaiian culture could hold up pono pono, which means that of reconciliation, it's actually a Hawaiian cultural term, that when there's conflict within the family, they bring a leader in Cardinal Lee, and they have that that conflict, you know, vented out on the floor, and then they all walk into the ocean. And they they dunk themselves in and then they're

the symbol is that, okay? Now this grievance is washing away, we're able to borrow that concept that's so so clear in

Hawaii, yeah. And bring it into you know, it, you know, if you understand that, I wonder what what it means to imitate Jesus in whole oponopono practice, it means truly forgiving, you know, it means that you don't just need another leader to do this with you, you can do this, right, you you can do this with with a family member, it doesn't have to just be close family members, you can do this with, you can actually do this with your friends, you can do this with your co workers, you can do

this in your church, you know, like, you know, those kinds of concepts. So they it's really beautiful, that that's what they want to focus on this year.

areas. And you've set up a discipleship pathway in a place where you can, can actually take a hold of one of these commands of love one another, and go deep in that and figure that out. And this is what we need to be doing as a community. This is really important for people to know that it's not just a method, but there are principles in it that people could say can go deep, where they want to and it needs to be particular to their place.

But that also requires trust and I I think a lot of people hold on for a long time, because they don't want to give away trust in discipleship. They want to control because it means that it is less messy. How can we step into the mess and know that we're gonna get our hands dirty, and it's going to, you know, we're gonna have to change dirty diapers, there's all sorts of things we're gonna have to do. But trust in a way that, hey, the Holy Spirit has them, and they can start to grow up

towards Jesus. And we don't have to control every aspect, but we do have to, to help them figure out what does it look like to follow and imitate Jesus?

world, right? You can't just expect that because you know that because I'm in the role that I am. And I have this title or because, you know, God's Word says, so that's why or, you know, that's not convincing enough. Not anymore, right? And so, I think the chess part is about how do you, and this is where that rhythm part comes in. Right? It's not just about the formation, but it's that rhythm

part. As leaders, do, we have intentional rhythms so that it gives it provides enough time together and a personal experience that these people are going to have, that grows their trust. And I think that this doesn't have to be the only way. But I do think that this is a very, very effective way to do it. If you just like many, many things, if not all things in the kingdom of God, it always starts out so small, right? There's such a big value point to that,

right. For us, for example, for us, and in my local context, we start out each discipleship core that it's closed on purpose, because a closed group that's learning together, for close for the depending on that missional community are either closer or 12 months or 18 months, going through a discipleship pathway together in a very set rhythm.

If it's closed, it means that you are you are committing to this group that I know it's not going to change for the next 12 To me, 18 months, it may change after that I'm a little scared about that. But at least for now, in the 12 to 18 months now I know that nothing's gonna go out of this row, that these are the people I'm going to be growing with, we're learning at the same pace, and the same information. We're all being messy, and trial and error with

the same group of people. And that helps people to experience trust. It also makes it so that these people, if you're, if you're trusting one another, it also means that you're going to be trustworthy enough to be on mission together to care for other people, right? Like the mess and trial and error doesn't happen in like the learning part. Within a discipleship core. It's the going out together part into the

neighborhood, right? That's that's the part but then you can bring all those experiences back in a very trusting environment. And that discipleship court because it's closed, you know, so I think I think having you know, a lot of times when I'm when I'm doing this kind of work with remeshing pastor, so it's in an established church, we did a revision process with a lot. My first church plan was not a missional community based church, but it was a Sunday worship service centric, we

started it was awesome. Sorry, with 20 people in five years time grew to 40 or 50. People, it was amazing. But we knew that we needed to change something because we started to ask him that discipleship question Are people people are, you know, growing, the seats are being filled. It's amazing. We're have a third service now. It's so great. But are people actually being discipled? How do we know that this is happening? And we

couldn't answer it. And then that's when we started changing up our rhythm a little bit more. We took one summer where we took all of our small group leaders, and we're like, this is a great experimental group to start with. So we took them in summertime, most people take breaks, they just wanted to have barbecues anyway, awesome. Keep having your barbecues, you know, with with your with your small group, but come come to training with us every single week for 12 weeks. So we did that on

purpose. We knew that they were at a certain level of leaders already. But we also wanted to chant begin to transform our small group leaders. but they're not small group leaders because they're great at facilitating or hosting. We want to transform them so that they're actually discipled. People who are making

more disciples. Yeah. So we took them out on purpose just as an experiment for the summer, every single week for 12 weeks, and we disciple them on very, very, this is the first time we're trying to trying this out, right? Just just very simple concepts of getting to the full gospel. What does it mean to be in a thick community? What does it mean to be personally connected to Jesus? Do people understand how to have a heart for others, right? Are not Jesus

followers? Do people know what their place in the Kingdom of God really is? Just those kinds of simple themes, and ran it, ran it through them. And then after that summer, in the fall, we did a purposeful, from the front it, you know, on the pulpit, for the next three months, for a whole quarter, all we did was center, the small groups on purpose, to begin to tell stories about how Hey, what if these these community groups or these family groups, Ohana groups, whatever you want to

call them, right? These pods of people who are getting together to read the Bible together, maybe go through a book, you know, maybe make some new friends? What if these groups actually turned into missional communities where they're in the neighbor hood that they're in, not just because it's the closest place that a small group is being hosted? But what if it's because it's a gathering place to begin to think on behalf of that neighborhood,

right? We started change changing that we did like, you know, 15 minute minute talks on it, and then open up the whole lobby area, set up Cafe tables, all the small group leaders, we just called them circle leaders

were were there. And then for the rest of the lat, you know, remaining 45 minutes, the whole point of the services that people mingled got to know saw which neighborhoods they have these grooves, right, those kinds of things, so that we could gather people, and then the next year would be about how to disciple everyone, at the same time through this small group leaders, honestly, through that time, we know statistically speaking, you know, your if your church is, you know, small

group, attendance is like hitting like that 30% mark of your regular Sunday, service attendance, you're doing great, you're like, you're like, you're like hitting that target, right? For us, we were averaging 85% of our church congregation being a part of the circle groups, because we pushed it so that it's going to change into a missional community, small group leaders are going to be disciple makers discipling, these groups,

right. And then at some, some weeks, we actually had, like more attendance in our small group ministries than we did on the Sunday service. So I do think, you know, probably one of the biggest critiques of my book is going to be Oh, no, this is only gonna work for church plans. It's really easy to do and you're starting from scratch. I understand that I hear that loud and clear. I've done both can be done in an already established ivory

missionary church. Wait, I just think the difference is just like it also cannot be done in a church plant. A scenario also, I just think that it depends on the leader. Yeah, if they're actually going to focus on centering, discipleship or not,

love that. But when Jesus said, get rid of the building, and then go around to different places in the city, and we're going to just follow him and trying to figure this out. It's taken a few years, but once the pandemic hit, we were already in home churches and we never had to do some like a videos on a screen, but we could actually just gather and home churches discuss what needed to be

discussed. And then we you know, as we're working through what does it look like to be in the homes and then to gather corporately, once a month so that's our our rhythm right now is we're we're in the homes three times a month, and we're gathering corporately, once a month. So we have our formation pathway, our discipleship pathway, we call it the

following Jesus pathway. And you could walk through and talk through the gospel and the gifts and the and who we are as our identity and baptism and then we go through the commands of Jesus and all sorts of things. So we have our, our pathway, which is great. And then our rhythm where you know, we're a peripheral family on mission. This is our,

this is who we are. So we have in the year we have prayer prior quarter, a family quarter emission quarter and then a Rule of Life quarter as we're setting those things up. So we have our rhythm is we're going in and walking through these past places. And, you know, one of the things is now I think what we're trying to do is trying to connect people with examples of what it looks like to imitate

Jesus, and figuring it out. That mission is really about walking with Jesus in who I am, is my identity of like a, who did God create me to be? And if I bring that to every place that I'm at, I could be on mission with him, because I'm bringing my purpose and calling and who I am. And we could do that as a home church and community what that looks like. But then so how do we connect? That's the question, I think, especially within missional communities, as we're spread out, how do we get those

examples? And how do we connect people into a place where, oh, you guys have the same heart for this specific type of mission over here. And this person is actually doing it doing it well. Looking like Jesus, how do we connect those people when they're dispersed among different missional communities around the city or the area that you are a part of?

Without Christ, I always want to add one more piece and say, discipleship without mission is discipleship without Christ. So and you know, it when discipleship is very programmatic, and this this one off kind of thing at the periphery that it becomes so much more instructional, it only stays with identity pieces at best, right? It feels it feels really good to me. And for me, when it's like a really good program, right? But I'm just like, that's no different from

any self help. You know, think that like, I'm sure somebody will think that like, oh, pick up my book, because it's going to be a self help thing about personal discipleship? No, let's not, don't do that. I think that I think that the actual transformation happens when imitating Jesus compels a person to actually want to move towards their neighbor, in real life, not just not just in prayer, not just in being able to maybe read

the Bible with them. But it actually transforms them to be like, you know, and I'm going to imitate the life of Jesus, the death of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, it means I need to move towards my neighbor, I have to know who they are, right, those kinds of things. And it takes really gutsy leaders to do it. I'll give you an example from one of our our mission leader community leaders because she's probably one of the best

examples in our community. And she would never say that she is and probably would be like having a you know, a whole thing right now. Her name is Kelsey, I write a lot about her in the book but basically, she she had a community people it was it was a small group issues small group leader, she really she's a an evangelist prophet, a wiring so she loves the outsider has a social justice bent, right? deep connection with God right there. There's a sense of rightness and

wrongness. Right? She also happens to be a hospice care nurse. And so that that's that's her in a nutshell, right? So she's leading this group that's doing predominantly you know, a Bible study kind of thing. People feel really great. It's growing because people are really great. feel really great. Kelsey is a really good host, right? All those kinds of things. People feel like they're

forming friendships. A few years ago, calcium really felt you know, one of the questions that we always ask all of our leaders is like, what, you know, the vision, it can be shared amongst all of our missional communities, and what is it uniquely that you feel like God is calling your community to in your identified space admission, and a few years ago, customers really felt a call that too, we call them kupuna. And in Hawaii, it's the seniors or elders. She's a hospice care nurse for

crying out loud. Of course, she loves the elderly, right? The grandmas and grandpas in society, but she this this person who loves them, you know, and she really felt to call as she really felt a call that like it should not be just a personal invitation on her life. She wanted to invite her entire group, she's not the person to do that she's net, she felt she took almost half a year before she had the courage to share this vision, you know, with with her community. And she did it.

Because, you know, rejection is a hard thing to face for probably 100% of society. She faced it, she lost half her group, because people did not want to go and it was very painful. But all the way we just kept telling her cows. You know, if this if your discipleship does not have mission involved in it, what are you doing? You know, you're just filling up forming a really nice Social Club, right. And so, now fast forward, you know, many years later, and here she is, she her

group has doubled. There are two different missional communities.

Now have we they have identified 500 seniors in low income living facilities and amongst three different low income, living facilities, during all the pandemic that that group made sure that every single 500 residents have received one month's worth of groceries every single month, for for, for the throughout the entire pandemic, we just partnered and partner and partner with different groups, just so that the kupuna did not have to take a bus to go to the food bank to pick up two

cans, cans of food, and then get back on the bus and get back into the to their place. These people would call the kupuna, every single week, their whole vision is that will the kupuna in Kakaako, that part of the neighborhood know that they are seen and loved and that they really matter, right. And if that's the thing, all of a sudden, she's grown it now they actually do discipleship course within the kupuna. So now kupuna are discipling their neighbors

together. But this this has been years in the making, I would have rather that group split up those years ago and have Kelsey go through that painful process. Because she stuck to that vision. She thought about formation. She thought about a rhythm. And she thought about is there a future way that there is an example of disciple makers within the low income kupuna facilities in Kakaako, in Honolulu, can that actually

happen one day? And it has? You know, so I think she is an amazing example that examples aren't made overnight. Yeah, that's a thing, right? That's a part about are there pieces of stories that that we can highlight as main leaders. amongst the leaders, we know, I think one part of my job is I just sit down with my leaders on a regular basis, I could hear their stories. Because if people are shy, people are kind of shy,

they don't want it. You know, these people are living on mission, they're not going to talk themselves, they're not going to go and do a whole big announcement about their lives. They actually think that their lives are small. Most of these people are actually imitating Jesus this way. Right? And so I feel like it as my role what I can do in this season, where this is an enormous How do I get my entire community to know how to recognize and celebrate the people who are those we should

be imitating? As they imitate Christ, right? We're not going to be imitating the people who are the best communicators, that the best singers, the best, you know, people connectors, we're not we're not celebrating those people. We're celebrating the people who are discipling groups of people who have been faithful to an identified space of mission. You know, when Kelsey goes through her neighbor, she loves to bike on purpose through that neighborhood to go say hi

to everybody, just chuck. Okay, he does a good job, I'll have coffee today, you know, those kinds of things. She's doing this, every single person knows every single one of those discipleship, core members by name, or a member of that neighborhood, they know who to go to, they know that they have an entire community of real community, you know, they know that they're not going to be in need. Right, like, Yeah, and like, how is that not the

kingdom of God? Yeah, you know, growing in that neighborhood.

learn and grow together. And then those three people actually won't just be coming to you to think that you are The one and only person who can disciple that right? They learn actually how to do that mess of community together in a smaller group, those people experiencing that will probably begin to spread that on their own community, they'll only think that discipleship happens best within

a community context. I think for my 21 year old self, I think thinking about not gaining as much wealth of knowledge as possible, means that I'm a better Christian. I think it's knowing how do I actually have social competencies? You know, that helps me to live out and practice how I'm following Jesus in my own internal life, right? Like there should be a place for an external life that shows is my internal life actually being

transformed by Jesus, right? I think that those kinds of things, because if a 21 year old is beginning to disciple groups of people, small pods, and is thinking about mission in their own personal rhythm, can you imagine what they're going to be like? 3141 we're going to be raising, you know, these emerging leaders to already be people who are the examples we need in our churches.

just makes me tear up now. And I just think that if we, as leaders in particular don't know how to contend with our own leadership struggles, be very, very aware of how, in our culture, especially today, right, a domineering leadership is something that as long as you're not caught, or exposed, maybe that is a better way to lead. Right, that that is that

that temptation? You know, obviously that way will never work in a discipleship model, especially when you're trying to make other disciple makers. Right. So I think I think that being able to wrestle through our identity as leaders in a very, very confronting realistic exposing, repenting way, is actually going to make it so that we didn't do one to imitate others are imitating Jesus, from how they're actually repenting and wanting to be servant leaders, you know, and that

dominate leaders. So I think it's coming out this month, and I'm super stoked for it. Yeah.

you if you get it. So I think it's like 30% off if you preorder.

and reading it. So it's not just a place where you could read, but it's also a place where you could actually put it into practice. And so I really appreciated that about your book. And I think a lot of people would do really well to get the book and put it into practice centered discipleship. And say, this is the thing that we want to make Jesus the center, we want to imitate him together and commute a day community so that we could have

an impact in the world. And we could be on mission together and we could see the kingdom of God come on earth as it is in heaven. So thank you so much for this conversation. It was fantastic. I love that. So thank you, Pablo.