Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each Tuesday. And go right now and leave a five star
rating and review. Just go to the Show page on the app you're using right now and hit five stars. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners. Thank you so much. Previous guests on the show have included Jen Pollock, Michel, David, Saul and Andrew aren't. You could go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Ashley hails. Ashley hails holds a PhD in English literature from the University of Edinburgh,
Scotland. With her husband, she is the co founder of the willowbrae Institute and new Think Tank researching the intersection of Christianity and the common good in America. She is a Kirby Lang Center Academic fellow and advisor to the board of covenant college actually hosts the cartographers podcast and is the author of finding holy in the suburbs and a spacious life. We have a great conversation about having a more spacious life. Ashley helps us see that our limits are good,
and points us to God. She shares spiritual practices that help notice God in everyday life, to remind ourselves that we are His beloved children, and to move from the cerebral to the rest of the body. She also talks about how to have hope and suffering and helps us navigate the cultural landscape we find ourselves in. It's a really good conversation. I know you're going to enjoy it. So here's my conversation with Ashley Hales.
Ashley, welcome to the podcast, I'm really excited to have you on thank you so much for joining me,
You are so welcome. It's such a pleasure to be with you, Joshua.
Yeah, I'm really excited to dig deep into a space where we could find, I think God in the midst of our every day, and we could see where he's at and see how we could interact with him. And in places, you know, of, of limits, like you wrote in a spacious life, or interaction in the world and
seen where he's at. So, I'd love for you just to give us briefly a little bit of your journey into a place of trying to figure out what a spacious life looks like, and why you got to that place of saying I want to embrace my limits, and not fight against them.
Yeah, you know, I think for a lot of us, we when we're kind of hit with our human limits, whether it's a limits of our season, or our bodies, or attention, or calling work limits are so many different ways we can kind of come at that question, but a lot of us tend to fight it. And a lot of us or a lot of us tend to kind of freeze and just go ah, you know, kind of resigned ourselves, I
guess this is way it is. And so for a lot of times, I would say I often say that a spacious life, the book about limits really came about from a place of frustration and anger. And so the sense that, you know, I had been told growing up in the 80s and 90s, that you can be everything you want to be and that, you know you can go change the world for God. And all of these grand idealistic things, of course, came crashing down with the reality of work and
relationships. And we, my husband, and I have four children. So I hit my limit real quick. And it was really through that process of walking with Jesus through those limits, particularly for me with parenting. I tended to be a very cerebral person, I still am. And being a mom to four children made me kind of put some of that aside, at least for the season, because I did change diapers and
some people needed to eat. So I think it's it's good to realize, I think on the other end of that my children are in school and teenagers. And again, and again, of course, they still see my limits, right that I can't control them. I don't know their stories, I can't help. I can't make the path easy for them. And part of that hitting those limits is how God changes us and
grows us. And so I think through through that process I've become to see Oh, as I dug into Scripture to say that limits are actually good limits are in creation. They're actually there before sin is right. Like we have planets of orbits, and we have seasons embedded in the earth and all of those things show us that that is actually They the created way to live.
And I think, you know, we've hit that as well, you know, my story is, you know, my wife and I were in the Middle East for for five years we were without a child. And we were able to do a lot of work and ministry and felt really good about spending our days with refugees and seeing people come to Jesus. And, and, you know, we moved back to the states now six years ago and had our first child. And it felt like things slow down, and there was a
limit. And we felt like, Oh, are we doing see if this is the right thing? Am I doing enough? Is God pleased with me in the in the place where I, now I, I train and coach people that go out and do the stuff? But am I doing it? What am I doing with my, with my limits? So as you started to get angry and frustrated with the place of like, hey, there's some limits?
How did you start to find, find God in the midst of those limits, and not continue to be frustrated about the things that you couldn't control?
Right. You know, I think, I think I began to realize that it's all just like, pick your elevator, you know, pick your moving walkway. And, you know, whether it's parenting, whether it's career frustrations, whether it's frustrations with your body, or mental health, whether it's, you know, even just where you are, spiritually, there's so many ways in which, if, like, maybe we get kind of the lid, tamp
down on when, and then. So then we move on to the next one, and you realize they're all the same thing. They're all ways in which I'm trying to find my ultimate satisfaction other than as a child of Jesus. And, and maybe that there's something actually good, you know, in here. And so as I studied the life of Jesus a little bit more thoroughly with that angle, I began to see, oh, like Jesus shows us actually how to live a good human life. And it's not just like, he is, of
course, he is fully God. But he's also fully human. And so he shows us how to be human. And I think there's so much in the world, whether it's technology, whether it's our own sinful desires, whether it's just kind of modern, Western life that says, you need to be crushing it. And if you're not crushing it, like something's wrong with you, and you better be crushing it, or feel ashamed and numb out because you're not crushing it.
So I think I just kept trying to dig into the biblical story and say, this is actually where God says, We need to find life. So hey, let's let's try it on.
Yeah. So then, if Jesus teaches us in His human life, how to be human, and he was, he was the one as a fully human, God, which is the most unfathomable, coolest thing that God would become human, by one of us, and walk among us and show us how to live and show us who God is. So, as he has Holy Spirit, and is empowering him into into life, what are some of the things that you noticed in his life? That can translate into into ours?
Yeah, you know, I think one thing I just, I love, as you read through the Gospels, and thinking about limits is obviously we all are in one place, and in one point of time, and what's interesting about our modern day and age, right is that often like the internet, for instance, gives us this illusion of godlike control, like, we can be conversing with someone in Australia, and then we can be commenting on someone's article that they wrote about Sudan, you know, all in the same space and time and
it's so it flattens space, it flattens time. And it kind of gives us this sense that we can be like disembodied brains on the stick everywhere at once godlike creatures, which is a luring, which we see Jesus deal with kind of directly, not with technology, but those same temptations in the wilderness. And again, and again, he comes back right to the Word of God that this is this is the story that is that makes sense of my
story. And we also see him throughout the Gospels, stopping right he stops all that he's walking first of all right? He's not in a jet is walking, so he's going slow. So he's actually able to pay attention to people. And he's able to use even the natural world around for his parables. He's interruptible. Often he's going one way and someone says, Hey, would you go he'll my, my son, or whatever, and he stops and pays attention
to them. And I think there's so much that we lose about how the spirit might be calling us to act and work because of our pace, right? Because we choose busyness over what God might want to do with us in any particular day or moment. So those are just a few things that I found, you know that there was a sense in which he embraced being a person in a body in a place in a time. And then he also paid attention to people.
And then when he was presented with the allure of limitless power, or, or even comfort that again and again, he chose the bigger story of gospel.
And we are living a part in that bigger story that we often think about are our own story. And that we are, we are Gods of our own story. If we're, I mean, we don't say those words. But we act like we are Gods in our own story, but we're actually living in God's story. It's a it's a bigger story that we get to play
a part of. And when you were sharing some some of that, as we're flattening out time and space, yeah, it actually reminded me a little of the end of Wally, the Pixar movie where Yeah, at the very ends, there's just a bunch of we find that there are humans, it's not just robots roaming the earth, but there are humans in a spaceship that are just stuck on a screen and the air so fat, they can't
move. Because they've this, they've actually entered into a different space of this isn't my place anymore, my place is everywhere. And so that's it an interesting place where, you know, Pixar told us where we're gonna go if we stay in that trajectory. Yeah. So how do we make our place? small, but significant? And we know that we are embodied and we're here, and we're in the moment? And we're not saying we're everywhere all at once?
Yeah, that's a great question. And I love to hear your answer to. Cuz I think it sounds like you also are figuring out how do we Yeah, how do we live the small life? How do we live the given life? Without? And how do we kind of attach that anchor right to the bigger story of our of our small lives? You know, I think a lot of it has to do with various personal and corporate rhythms. So, you know, whether it's silence and solitude as a place to experience the presence of
God, in a daily way. You know, just like Bible reading, going to church, like those really boring spiritual disciplines. But they they frame us, you know, they have our story into into something bigger that that we are a part of something, we are part of people, and we're
part of a place. I find often just for me, like daily walks, becoming increasingly important, either with a friend or just out in nature, to pay attention to my place to remind myself, I'm not in my head all the time, or I'm not what I read, or what I do. And so like moving my body, for me is an antidote to getting out of my head, often, which is where I can get stuck. So finding those those natural sort of rhythms that push against, maybe our proclivities is a good
way to start. What would you what do you say?
Well, I think those those physical practices are really important. And as important to be connected within a community, a local community. This is the the problem with with my job and my sphere is that we have a trans local community that we are encountering and interacting with and training and coaching and making and caring for people that are Yeah, all over the world. And translocal. So we have this bond, but it's not a
bond. And it's different, that I have to remind myself that there is something for me, local, and I really, that's why I really love being a part of my church body. At home. And because we, you know, as we're in homes together, as we're eating together, I'm, I'm actually able to connect to somebody and say, oh, there's, there's people here that I'm connected with. Right? It helps me to know, like, I my son, as he plays in the street, and he gathers all of the other
kids on the street. Yeah, it's important to know that I'm a part of this community on the streets. And I get to know that the other kids and that and the parents and the grandparents and everybody else on the street and saying this is our place. And, and so, again, it's like we need we need speed bumps on our road. So we're gonna say, hey, let's let's do something for our
community. So, especially for me and my wife when we are actually we We raise our eyes up and we look around the world, we have to really say I need to get involved here on my street on my road to say this is part of who I am. And if I don't do that, then I do feel disembodied. And I feel like I don't have a place. And I'm always yearning for what's next, instead of living for what is in front of
me. And so that's the, that's the place that it's hard to get to, especially when you're thinking about the rest of the world and have people rest the world.
Right. Yeah. And that's a valuable space. And I think you're right that you need both, right? You need both the the larger ideas and connections, right, and then you need a really specific way in which you can practice some of those things yourself. Yeah, I hear that.
It's true. It's true. As you say, you what else? What are the things that you particularly practice to have a more embodied faith than a more cerebral faith? As it goes from the head to the rest of your body?
Yeah. I, I tend to practice just silence and solitude as a spiritual discipline before I read my Bible and pray. And so that just involves like, right, sitting in a chair in silence, you know, your feet on the ground, and it just to practice saying, like, I'm actually here, right now. It's not just I'm not just reading the Bible to see like, what great nugget I can get out of it to like, help me be more productive and busy and do big
things for God. But just, you know, just kind of start in a posture of humility of, you know, I don't have life figured out I come receiving, I come in humility. And often when you practice silence, it can you know, just to practice saying I am in God's presence, I am his beloved child. Yeah, he might speak to me, but it might just be quiet, I might start reciting my you know, grocery list, or all the emails I need to return.
And like, all of that's okay, in the same way that as a parent would do with his or her kid that wants to tell them all about their day. It's not like you're like, well, that is ridiculous. You should not share that with me, right? So it is kind of a posture of remembering that, that I'm, I'm a kid, I'm God's kid, too. And he takes great delight in me. And so that
is, that's one practice. Often, like I've seen walking, kind of meditative prayers, all listen to the prayer as you go app, as a way, or even just scripture, reading as I'm walking is another way to kind of process the Bible. And so it doesn't feel like hey, here, I am sitting here with all these commentaries, and I'm just studying the Bible to get something out of it. Yes, I mean, so those are some kind of embodied practices. Obviously, there's lots of bodily movement built into the the Sunday
worship service. And yeah, I think those are, those are some good starters. And yeah, just even just thinking about having people over we tend to practice hospitality. A whole lot. It's important to our family and we believe a call of every Christian you know, and so yeah, like thinking as you're cooking, either for your own family or for neighborhood families. To be thoughtful about these people coming into your home as you're chopping vegetables, like those are practices of faith to
Yeah, they are, you know, in this conversation already, you've you've come back to this place, and of calling yourself and as of a beloved child of God, and it feels like that is is a primary identity. How Why is that important? To realize that that is who we are.
I mean, I think I struggle with it a lot because I'd much rather often feel like I am special and unique anagram four with a three wing which is nuts. So it means basically I want to be the most productive special unique person
but I'm a three with a four wing so
okay so sorry listeners if you're not familiar with anagram, but basically I think I've always wanted to either prove myself by what I've done, or I have wanted to be seen and understood amongst people and connected and, you know, no person can really ever give that to you. And so it's either you we keep chasing accolades and outlets of praise or we begin through humility and suffering, often to realize that those things are
pretty empty. And so I would say, you know, through the last, I don't know, five, six years, just various sets of challenges in our ministry life, my husband's a pastor, or feeling abandoned by people or feeling confused about where to go next. And not really having any direct
answers. And all you can do is just kind of hold on and stay put, even when you'd rather leave, like those sorts of long periods of either confusion or suffering or bafflement, I think have brought us back into a sense of, we can really only minister and love people out of who we are. And if, if we're always if who we are, is really always trying to kind of jockey for position, or not actually loving God or a neighbor. And unfortunately, a lot of that has to happen through pain.
But pain does something to us. And I think one of the things is the problem is we follow Jesus who is a suffering servant, and he goes through the most horrific pain that any human will ever go through, and that we get to suffer with him and go through pain. But also, I think it it reminds us that we're dependent on God, and that there is an end to ourselves. And suffering means that I can't control
everything. And just to be honest, the people that I know that have the most joy and love, know that God is faithful, more than anybody else are people that have gone through enormous pain. And they've seen God's faithfulness through it. As I know that there are probably lots of people that are going through pain and their suffering now that they have mental anguish, and despair and anxiety, anxiety, and all sorts of different career pain and pain of like, what is next,
where we're going? How do we have hope in the midst of that despair? And how do we stay and remind ourselves that God is faithful? When we can't see any any light yet? Yeah, moving forward?
Well, I don't think you can ever do it alone, like we can. And we, and I don't think we can ever like reason our way out of despair. Or think our way out of despair. I think it seems that at least in my experience, it's it's walking through those valleys of the shadow of death with other committed Christians, who will not run away from you, in your pain or suffering, that will welcome you to sit with them. That is where you find your Enneagram fours, who are happy
to sit with you in darkness. But you know, I think it's finding those people. Because I don't, I don't ever think we can do it alone. Right? That we are, we're created for community. So we have to be able to do it with others, who will kind of lift up our arms, so to speak, when we
can't do it ourselves. And trusting right that we have that there is something on the other side that you know, if if the crash shaped life that we're invited to does lead to death, like, like Jesus, it also will lead to resurrection, whether that's in a month or a week, or at the end of time. And so I think we just keep rehearsing the story with people who will hold us.
So what is that? What are some of the the elements of that story? If you're sitting in despair, how do you rehearse the story? And what are some of those elements?
Well, I will also say, Alan Noble is a friend of mine, and he just is coming out with a book called on getting out of bed, which really deals with the problem of life. And it kind of addresses mental health, as well. But the idea that why do we get out of bed every day? How do we go? How do we in the in the face of disparate evil and suffering? How do we get out of bed? So that's a short, nice little book could read in one afternoon. That just reminds us
of the goodness of living. But you know, what do we do practically? Besides picking up Allen's book, let's say. I mean, obviously, there's lots of different sorts of afflictions. But if this is just your average, dark night of the soul that most Christians will experience at some point. I always encourage folks to find what brings them delight, kind of in practice. Is that as a
spiritual practice? And so and then asking people for that maybe those people who are walking alongside of you like, could you just bring me a spaghetti dinner? You know? Or can we go out and get the sunshine on our face together? I'm always amazed at when the weather changes how everybody knows. Sometimes, sometimes it might be as simple as like going for a walk and drinking water and getting sunshine on your face for your, you'll be able to practice some way out of those
moments of despair. But rehearsing that story, I think is just, you know, finding those those little pockets of delight. Maybe even those beginning Inklings, you know, what attracted you to Jesus in the first place? Or our worship song are the sorts of rays of light that you can come back to that a particular to each person?
Yeah, one of the things we've been talking about is our dependence on others, or dependence on God, that so we're, we're in community, and we're in a relationship with God. I think in our, in the West, in the Western culture, we're very much independent. Alright, where I can get this done, I can do it. And, you know, just as somebody that's trying to empower others to get jobs done, a lot of times they say, Well, why don't I just do it? Because I can do it better
and faster? Yep. And yes, more work to empower somebody else to do it. Yeah. But so how do we how do we shift our mind to say that we are not just independent creatures? And how do we change our culture, and the way that we think and the way that we've been growing up and the way that the society says, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and move forward, and then enter into something that's countercultural? And say, I'm dependent on my neighbor? And my community? Yeah.
I wish I have the answer to that question. Only do these three steps. The next generation will have it sorted. No, I think, you know, I, I think we have to first begin to say the right nose. So we can say the right yes is. So if we and everything has to start local, as we were talking about, so maybe it's like your own, you could start with your own dinner table. And to think about how often do you gather around that dinner table? What is the quality of that meal? Who's
invited? Can we invite some more people in as a way to begin to think about our lives as not just belonging to ourselves and and at, you know, how are our meals, somehow pointing to the goodness of Jesus and His coming Kingdom where all things will be
made? Right? And it doesn't have to be fancy, you know, it can still be your your box, mac and cheese, but like, how are we paying attention to small details around our own dining tables might be an easy place to start, that doesn't feel as big as like changing the entire culture. But you know, like, it might be something like a book club, right? Getting folks who are interested about these, these questions and conversations that are in your church, or neighborhood together, right to talk about
them? And say, what's going on? What do you notice from your vantage point, because your vantage point is going to be different, you're coming from a different place than me, that might be a way forward. That's something small and practical that listeners might find valuable. I'm thinking about doing something like that for like just a book club at our church for just the summer to think about some of these questions. That, you know, I
think a lot of it. So it's got to be that we're inviting other people in to have these sorts of discussions, it's got to be that we're saying no to certain things that are going to form us. So whether that's fighting on social media, whether it's just the the rat race of production, whether it's, you know, that your kid has to be involved in 20 extracurriculars, and you can actually like you don't have to say yes to those.
I remember at one point someone told my husband like if your kid doesn't do club soccer by age five, like they're behind and my husband goes behind what like, and she just looked at him like he had two heads because the idea is well of course they're behind but we don't even know really what they are behind. Right but we we keep we keep doing more because we think that more options is going to be a
better life. So choosing to say the right knows whether that's on your calendar, or even in, you know, whether it's extracurriculars or whatnot for those who have children. Might be some few practical starting places that we hope will have ripples throughout God's kingdom, I do try to remind myself, you know, Jesus's parable of the seeds and falling
on different types of soils. And we just don't know what will actually reap the harvest or something that looks really small this side of eternity might actually be pretty big on the other side. So that helps helps me when it feels like small doesn't matter to
me. Yeah. Yeah. And Paul said that, that, you know, I planted Apollo's watered and and God is the one that produces the growth. And so that's our job is to is to sow seeds, and be faithful with what we have been entrusted with. And our job is not the fruit, God is going to produce that harvest, which is yeah, it's very comforting to me, knowing that it's not all on my shoulders, I
do have to be faithful. And in walking those things, and I think a couple of those those practices and options of of gathering people in on dinner table, book club, do something to, to invite people in. I think, as we start to practice, and the people around us are practicing those same things. Shared Practice changes the way that we think and changes the way that the we know the world works. If we have a practice where I'm, it's all dependent on me, I'm going to assume that the
world works that way. All of the pressure is going to be on my shoulders, I'm going to bear all the responsibility. I'm not going to be yoked with Jesus, this burden isn't going to be like my life. So we have to change our practice to be able to, I think changed the way that we think so that we can move into a new way. And I think a lot of I think Western culture specifically likes to say, hey, if I can know the right information, I'm going to change. And I've known the right
information about the GRE. For a long time. Yeah, it hasn't changed me yet. It's like a, can I just get rid of it all? My practice is gonna change. I don't know. Yeah. Now, what are the so what do you think? Is that something as I'm processing that? Do you think that that is some of the ways that we can change and we can move forward? Together? Yeah.
You know, I think I love Dallas Willard talks about change happening through vision, intention, and, and methodology basically, that we have to have a sense of where we're going, actually intend to where intent to get there, and then a way to get there. And I think a lot of us, we might have a great vision, whether it's like to, you know, help out at our local school, or it's to preach the gospel to particular people group, or if it's to get
rid of the sugar, right? We, we have a vision, but like, do we actually intend to go there? Or like, no, it's much more fun to just binge on them Eastern jelly beans at around the house? And, and so processing that? Do I have a vision? Is it from God? You know, from his word, do actually intend to go there with other people and through the power of the Spirit? And then how am I begin? What might that
next step be? I think kind of puts the pressure off of some of these bigger change questions, but I think you're exactly right. Change never happened through pure information.
Yeah. And I don't know, that's hard. I wish it just came from pure information. As a learner, I want to download it and say, I know this information. But now I have to live this information. So community is really important. Yes. Yeah. To be able to do that, you know, one of the things that I love is your, your, your podcast, host now and now you brought your husband in that you've changed the name to the cartographers, you're looking at at culture and the the cultural map of where we're
going. As you've started to look at those things. What are some of the things that you have been struck by have been starting to process and learn as you've had different guests on?
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think in the cartographers, we're really hoping to map for 21st century Christian leaders a pathway
through the culture wars. You know, I think we've just, I think, as we've done some research with our think tank, willowbrae Institute, we're also just seeing how you know from the 90s on this weird kind of overlap of American evangelicalism, this sense of increased prosperity and Amongst the United States, this sense of Christianity being tied to a particular political party, that, you know, and through just the the American history of revivalism and so many things
and kind of Bootstrap, Frontier mentalities that have really shifted how we live out our Christian faith, we don't really look like an egg Zelich people, which God's people have, historically always been. And so I'm so curious, as we're hosting conversations on the cartographers to get folks who have a lot more wisdom and knowledge than me to begin to weigh in to some of those questions. What does it look
like? Now I feel like post pandemic, I don't know if we're even post pandemic, but it definitely was a watershed
moment, globally, of course. But it probably many people talk about it as apocalyptic, right, it revealed something, it's not like it changed anything, but it probably sped up some of those cultural shifts, where we really have come to terms with the limits of our power, and some folks are doubled down, like are doubling down on that, whether that's political power, or AI, or like, let's follow Elon Musk to Mars, whatever, you know, whatever venue we might have for attaining control and power in
our lives. But I'm really excited to continue those conversations, we're going to start a series soon on on the culture wars, and talk with some folks who have been in politics for a long time and in seminary admins, administrators, so people who are on the ground and thinking about trends within American Christianity, I'm really excited to to get some more some more thoughts there.
Yeah. Well, is there is there a way forward then within the culture and the culture wars, and for, to be honest, I, the, you know, the beginning of the pandemic, because it was so apocalyptic that it revealed, so much unhealth of the church, and so much, you know, these power dynamics that were happening, and we're trying to manipulate things from here, and it wasn't really centered on Jesus, of like, Hey, we're gonna follow this man, this God, and in the midst of it, and and, but it was
veiled. And so it's unveiled now. And but now, I actually have a lot of hope, for the church, and a lot of things and we see some people doubling down, like you said, like, we want more power, we're trying to keep hold of it. But I see a lot of people opening their hands and say, Okay, I'm willing to follow You, Jesus. And we want to be the exotic people. In the past. I mean, I'll give you an example for from our church,
Nava church in Kansas City. You know, a year before the pandemic, we heard from Jesus, he said, get rid of the building, and start to roam the city. And so we gathered in home churches, twice a month, and then other two times a month, we would be at different churches in the afternoon, gathering corporately. And once the pandemic hit, we were already in home churches, we were already there in the home. And we were continuing to follow Jesus. And there was all sorts of things
of, of, of words. And we, our journey was a follow the cloud journey, like the Israelites in the wilderness, and we were just following Jesus wherever he's going in the city. And so I had hoped, like, for my church, like, oh, there are people that do here, yeah. Jesus in the midst of of these things, and be able to follow them. What are some of the places that you now are having these conversations? What are some of the places where you're seeing hope that there is a new way and a better
way and a way forward? Through these culture wars?
You know, I'm really encouraged about the ways in which Christians are increasingly able to work across difference that in the past, either like denominational Lee, let's say, I was just reading David Platts, new book, and he just mentioned, I just found one thing really helpful in his introduction, and he was talking about different buckets. And he said, you know, like, the first bucket is the gospel. Right? Did Jesus was fully God fully man,
did he rise from the dead? And was his death, you know, an atonement for sin? Yes. And then then there's like secondary buckets about baptism or, you know, roles in ministry, and then there's tertiary buckets that are even more specific than
that. And I think a lot of folks maybe in that those secondary buckets are Beginning, you know, that might have that maybe we worship differently or have different understandings about the gift, the spirit or baptism or whatever, are actually able to come together and work together because of this kind of upon them lipstick unveiling.
And that's been so encouraging to me to see folks who love Jesus, they love his church, they have a passion to, to communicate the gospel in ways that makes sense, sense to our culture, you know, and not sent us and like, it makes sense. And yeah, I agree with it. But you know, that they're trying to be kind of missionary minded and
culturally sensitive. And so I'm really encouraged, I think about that, that partnership, working across kind of denominational lines, for an end, and that there's a sense in which I think those folks realize this is likely a period of pruning for the American church. And that is good and healthy and necessary. Yeah. And so we need to work together. That's encouraging.
Yeah, I find that very encouraging, too. And, you know, one of the things that we use as we're training missionaries is we're talking about what are the levels of authorities, we're helping new followers of Jesus, and we say, the commands of Christ are is the top level of authority. And we want people to be able to obey them and walk in them and live in the commands of Christ. The second level is like New Testament practices, the way that they, they, they did it through Acts and different
things. And then the third is human tradition. And so I think, if we like human traditions, like Oh, my denomination does it this way. And we meet right at this time, or, you know, whatever it is, if we have those, like, hey, we could actually say, this top level is our authority. Yeah. And we all agree, like, this is what we're trying to accomplish and follow, then I think we can start to work together, right? Like, it's not really our authority isn't
just our tradition. It's actually there's a higher authority, which is Jesus, and then we can go across denominations and work together. And even across Protestant and Catholic lines, we could work together and say, amazing. Amazing,
right? I think that's what Jesus prayed towards the end of his life, right, that we would be united like He and the Father. And here we are.
Yes. Yes. So if you could leave the audience with with anything and an encouragement and encouraging word to say, A, these are some of the steps that we could move forward. And what would you want to say to the audience? Yeah,
I would just love to remind you of who you who are listening that your limits are actually good. I think so often, we fight against them, or we just kind of flop underneath them, but that they're built into the fabric of creation, and that they're good guardrails, just like we need guardrails on the side of the road, we need lane lines, we need speed limits, those are things designed to keep us safe and
actually flourishing. And so when you hit those limits, it isn't that you've done something wrong, or that you haven't achieved something, but that they can actually be a way to know God and to make Him known and to love our neighbor. And so I think, to press into what those limits is part of the practice of of our time is to, to press in, to pray through
them. God can take you kicking and screaming against them, you know, when it comes down to it, but to go with others to to love Him and to say, Oh, this might be actually an opportunity, and not the end of the lane is just a really encouraging thought, at least for me.
Good. I have a couple of questions. At the end one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Chill out? I was engaged when I was 21. What to my husband who's fantastic and I'm glad we got married. But it was like and I was traveling, studying overseas. And I just kind of thought like every decision is like the end of the world and such a big deal. So I would tell myself, chill out. God's got your story. Go with it.
That's really good advice. That's really good. That's great.
My children will love that. But
yeah, anything you've been reading watching lately recommends.
We're watching the show called New Amsterdam on Netflix, my husband and I it's about a public hospital. And one of his friends another pastor mentioned like hey, if you think about the hospital like the church is pretty powerful. So that and it's a it's a good show. So there are like bloody gory bits you know where they're doing surgeries but I've enjoyed that show. And reading I'm I'm currently reading an Alan nobles
book on getting out of bed. A and I just finished reading two novels because we were on vacation. So I read Eleanor Oliphant is completely fine about a slightly neurotic woman, and the Thursday murder Club series, which is about these kinds of Geriatrics in Britain who solve murders. It just, it's fun and funny. So
that's awesome. I love that. I think people need some of that fun and funny that we need to enter into that and not just get heavy, heavy reading all the time. We need a break from that too. Yeah, yes, that's awesome. I love it. But actually, I really appreciated this conversation. Thank you for
sitting down. And having that with me of talking through what it looks like to embrace our limits, and to have the space where we can find God and in the small in the particular place that we're at, that we could have a more embodied faith that we could move from the head into our practice and what we're doing that we could be connected with community and with a God that we could say, I am dependent on others, not just independent myself, and then figuring out, hey, is there a
way forward in these culture wars as we move forward? So, Ashley, thank you for this conversation. I loved it, and so are
so yeah, thanks. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, bye.