Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcasts in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact, and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button to be notified when new episodes come out each Tuesday, and go leave a rating and review. It only takes a few seconds. And it really does help new listeners
find the show. It's easy. Just go to the Show page on whatever app you're listening to right now, and hit five stars. Thank you so much. Previous guests on the show have included Christopher Walken, David Fitch and Pam Arland. You could go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Christopher J. H. Right. Chris is the global administrator of the Langham Partnership, which provides literature scholarships and preaching training for majority world pastors and
seminaries. He taught in India for five years. He's written many books, including Old Testament ethics for the people of God, the mission of God and His latest, the great story and the Great Commission, Chris, and I have a really great conversation around the story of the mission of God, our place in that story in the part that we can play, and how the Great Commission plays out in the story. It's a really good conversation that I know you'll
get a lot out of. Here's my conversation with Christopher J. H. Right. Chris, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.
Thank you, Joshua. Or can I call you Jojo? What do you prefer?
Yeah, I go by Joshua. I respond to Josh. My parents called me Josh all the way grown up. But then I, yeah, I looked and I was like, well, Joshua has a meaning and has a name. And Josh doesn't really have much of a meaning. So stick with Josh 22.
Okay. Let me just show it from here on.
All right. You know, I'd love to, you know, one of the things that I did when I was getting my master's degree, we were able to read the mission of God in my biblical narrative class that we had, and I loved that book, and I loved your writing. But you've really been steeped into this mission of God story for for a long time. And I think it would help us out if you can. I mean, it's a long story. But if you could briefly share, what is the mission of
God? What is this great story that you're writing about in this new book, The Great story in the Great Commission?
Thanks, Joshua. Yes, well, perhaps first, I should just tell people that in case they're wondering what the accent is, it comes from Northern Ireland. That's where I grew up. I live here now in central London, but my roots are in Belfast in Northern Ireland. So that stops people wondering, Where is this guy from? Yeah, the mission of God, the story of God, it really all
has come together. Because I was teaching I've been teaching the Old Testament was to my life, and did that for about five years in India, way back in the 1980s. And then taught a biblical basis of mission course at all nations Christian College, which is not all nations, Kansas, but all nations Christian College, which is a missionary training college in England. And basically, everything in that institution was done with a view to people going into cross cultural
mission. So all my thinking about the Bible, the Old Testament was was geared towards that. So it increasingly became clear to me that it's not that we have the Bible, and then we add some mission on to it as a kind of, you know, extra bit at the end, because Jesus said, the end of the Gospels, you know, go and make disciples of all nations as if you know, that's something to get on with, while I'm going off back to heaven, you know, it wasn't just an
afterthought. But actually, the whole Bible renders to us, the God who has a plan and a purpose for His creation, even though in that sense, mission begins with God's purpose for humanity. He called us to be kings and priests to be to have exercise authority and to care for the earth. So he, he gives us a mandate right at the very beginning just to be human. But of course, we mess it up, we end up falling into sin and rebellion. And so God does
something about it. And he makes a promise that through the people of Israel who bring blessing to all nations, so then you got another story going within the story of creation. You've got this story of Israel, but it's a story that has again that point and a purpose and a mission. God says you will be the people through whom I'm going to bring blessing to all
the other nations. So that then there's a story which leads ultimately to Christ in the center of the story, who is the fulfillment of God's plans and purpose for Israel, He's the Messiah of Israel. And then he takes the sin of the world on himself. He rises from the dead. And then he launches the next phase of God's mission, which is to all nations, the Abrahamic promises now gotta get
fulfilled. And so the mission of the Church, which of course, is that act, the Epistles is ultimate leading up to the climax in the book of Revelation, whether it be a new heaven and a new earth, a new creation, as the sense of completion, the accomplishment of God's ultimate mission. So in that sense, to me, the mission of God is a comprehensive meta narrative, if that's the right word, it is the overarching story of the whole Bible. Yeah, beginning to end from creation,
new creation. And that is where we need to fit our own sense of mission and purpose.
Yeah, and I think that, you know, oftentimes that we step back, I know and in western evangelicalism, especially that we oftentimes pick and choose some of the things in the Bible, and we don't have the the whole perspective of the narrative or the mission of God, in our forefront. And I know that you wrote in your book that once you have that, that worldview in that framework that the missional hermeneutic, if you will, and you see the world that
way. It it changes the way that that we live, and we interact with the world. How did it as you were studying and walking through the the narrative of the mission of God? How did that shifts the way that you interacted in the world and the way that you saw the world?
Yeah, thanks, Josh. I mean, I think the writing of the book mission of God, which as you see it as a pretty big book, it was almost like a second PhD in many ways. For me. It did change me to the extent that I, I realized a much greater depth than I had before, high, deeply rooted this concept of God's mission or purpose for all nations is in the whole description. And the other thing it did for me, as I tried to bring out at the end of the book is that it sort of radically
dissenters yourself. You know, rather than feeling like, you know, Isaiah standing up before God's Here am I send me You know, I've done the job. You know, what you realize is that actually, Isaiah is on the floor, somewhere at the very edge of the picture. What is in the center of the picture is a throne of God, this is the government of the universe at work. You know, God is our
mission. He's making plans. He's saying, Well, what, here's a job, Isaiah raises a finger and says, Well, scuze me, Lord, I could do that, that if you want, you know, it's more and availability to the purposes of God rather than saying, I'm going to accomplish themselves.
So that certainly, and then, the other way, it seems to me from from an evangelical point of view is I mean, I was brought up as many of jackals are to read the Bible day by day, and to always be asking the question, how does this apply to my life? Right? And that's a good question to ask. I'm not, you know, I'm not sort of say it's a stupid question. I'm saying it is a good question. But by repeatedly asking, that tends to reinforce the idea that my life is the center of the universe.
And this Bible stuff has got to somehow apply to me as if it's the adjective, and I'm the night you know, so what is a biblical thing for me to be doing? How can I be biblical? And whereas it seems to me that it's much more the other way around, I began to think, how do I apply my life into this story? It's not so much the application is the implication, how am I implicated in this narrative, which is God's story, in which God amazingly calls me to participate to Hey, you, I want
you in this story. So where do I fit my little life, my little slice of time and space. So it's, let's face it, it's pretty small in the big scheme of things. But my tiny little life can actually have some meaning some significance and purpose because it's part of the story, which began long before I came, was even born, and will go on long after I die unless the Lord comes first. So I'm now as it were connected into a story
that's bigger than myself. Yeah. That's both reassuring and also humbling because it realizes I'm not the savior. There's only one
Savior and it's not me. But I can be part of God's mission and purpose of it does I think reorientate oneself and D center are both our individual pride, you know, I have it and also to a big degree, it also dissenters, our national pride because we can easily get very ethnocentric and I said, it's me and my people in our country, it's going to do this job, or the Western world or that the church or whatever it might be, and really lucky, this is God's story, God's business, God's
agenda. And we are just co workers with God, as Paul said, and your servants for Christ's sake, has he said to the Corinthians,
yeah. Yeah, I love that. And it seems to me, you know, even when, when Jesus came in, he was, you know, pronouncing his ministry and Luke for that the the Jews were pretty ethnocentric at that point and saying, you know, this is all about us, and they're excited about it. And then Jesus said, No, it's really about all nations, and not just just you. And they weren't very happy
about it. And it seems to me that is that's a pattern in this world that hopefully the story of of, of God of this is his work could get us out of that pattern. That all
so I think so. I mean, I, I know, this is a podcast of particular listened to by mostly by my good American friends, and many, many over there in the States. But I do remember on one occasion, that they should do a bumper sticker song on a very strong thing on you know, God Bless America is a
very strong cultural flavor. And I heard about somebody who put a bumper sticker on the back of the car saying, God bless all the other people to have think I was quite terribly popular, because that seemed to be sort of a well, you know, it's not all about us. There's other people in the world to it. But that that applies to many cultures, many countries that we
think it's us and our job. I mean, I'm British, and goodness me, the British Empire has got plenty to answer for in that regard as well.
Yeah, yeah. And I think I think that's good. Hopefully, that breaks, breaks that cycle. So then how do we then read the Great Commission in light of this, this great grand story of God bringing all peoples to himself? And then what is our response to that, as Jesus laid it out?
Well, what I tried to do in the book that, you know, the most recent book, The Great story, and the great commission is to connect those two together. And to see, the first half of the book is really trying to lay out what the great story is. I've had great drama, and seven acts, you know, working through it. And then going back to your earlier question, what does that do for the way we think about ourselves and our worldview and inhabiting
of that story? But then I wanted you to come to the Great Commission, because for many, not because I personally think that it's the best or the only or the most important verse of admission in the Bible. But because there are people who think that, yeah, or at least there are, you know, there are groups in our organizations, or even churches, which one to call themselves, Great Commission,
churches and so on. We take those words at the end of Matthew's Gospel, you know, where Jesus says, All authority in heaven, earth has given to me so go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all I've commanded you and look, I'll be with you to the end of the age. It's wonderful that it's fantastic. But as I said, it's not it's not an afterthought.
It's actually a climax. It's, it's, it's almost Matthew's way of saying, Look, this is where it's all pointing to. Here is the one Jesus of Nazareth, who stands in the mind of ascension as a crucified and risen Jesus. And he begins to what he says first to His disciples is something which, if it weren't true, would be blasphemous. And he says, All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me what? No human being can say
that. But God did. In fact, Yahweh, the Lord God of Israel, says almost exactly that in Deuteronomy, and other places. But in Deuteronomy, Moses says to the Israelites, you need to recognize Israel, that the Lord your God is God and heaven above them and the earth beneath. There's no other God. And here Jesus takes that language, God of heaven and earth, and says, Guys, you know that I am nine in the God of all creation. So he's the God of the scriptures of the
Old Testament. That's the kind of language which are called the God of Israel and the God of the Old Testament. So he's effectively saying, Now, here's the next phase, now that I have come, as Messiah of Israel, died in the cross, risen again demonstrated who I am. Now, it's on to the next part of the story. You remember what God promised Abraham, through you all nations will be blessed will that's where it now has to go.
And in many ways that's there in the Great Commission at the end of Matthew's Gospel, it's even more We're clear the end of Luke's Gospel. Because in Luke chapter 24, when the disciples are with Jesus in the upper room, on the evening of resurrection day itself, you remember what Jesus does isn't for the second time and one day, he gives an Old Testament hermeneutics lecture, basically. And he says, This is what is
written. And then we might want to say, Well, excuse me, Jesus, where exactly is this written, he's not, he's not quoting a verse, he say, This is what the whole of the scriptures are about. And then he says, that the Messiah would suffer and rise again on the third day. And this is still with the Scriptures pointed, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, and you are
witnesses of these things. He's saying that the scriptures have to be interpreted both in a messianic way, it all points to Jesus as Messiah of Israel. But it also has to be the scriptures has to be interpreted in a missional way, because they're all pointing towards the story that leads to that to all nations. So that's why I want to connect in the book, the story
of the Bible as a whole. Now, with this nutshell, as it were, of the great completion, which is kind of summarizing, or in very brief space, and ultimately points to the very end, I will be with you to the end, well, When's that going to be? That's the new creation, the end of the age.
So now, mission is not an appendage. And it's not something that we're just like tacking on and saying that, okay, now, go do it. But it's actually part of the the climax of the story of, of Jesus on earth as and then saying, Here, now you get to, to further the story, and said, join me in my mission, to make all things new and to redeem the world and to bring all nations to the Father. So what are some of those then then things as we have joined Jesus, in that mission, join God
in his mission? What are some of the implications for us, as it relates to the entire story and not just say, an appendage of?
Yeah, but I think the first thing I'd say to that would be the first thing that Jesus said, at least in the Luke's narration, when he says, This is what is written, Messiah, and to all nations. And then he says, and you will be my witnesses, or you are witnesses.
It's almost it comes out at the very end of Luke, there, and that at the beginning of Acts, same place, well, actually different place for saying words, and of Luke, it's in the upper room, on the day of resurrection at the beginning of Acts, it's on the mind of
ascension. But since Jesus on both occasions, you will be my witnesses, a human Now that in itself, they would have heard as an echo of Isaiah 43, where God had said to Israel, look, all the other nations have their gods, and basically, they're useless. And even if you call them into court to give evidence for you know, they can't,
there's nothing there. But how will the nations know that Yahweh, the God of Israel, is the living God, the true God who has declared this who has accomplished it, who has interpreted it? And who has done it from beginning to end? How will the nations know you will be my witnesses? He said, That I
God, that's in Isaiah 43. And so in a sense, Jesus is saying, as disciples when I let you guys know, know who I am, that I am the Lord of heaven and earth, that I am the Living God of Israel has been walking among you these three years. But how do the nation's got to know that? Well, you have got to be my witnesses. And so the first implication for those who have become followers of Jesus is to be His witnesses to bear witness, for the love of God, so that God can be known to the
nations. And that, of course, immediately brings in the task of sharing the good news of gospel, or evangelism. It's the telling of the good news of what the God of Israel has done through his son Jesus, in the historical events of the crossing, resurrection, ascension of Christ, and what he's going to do when he comes back to reign as king. So there's a story to be told, which is basically what evangelism is it's a nine saying, Hey, guys, something has happened in the world. And it's
good news. God has done something and you better believe it. It only is good news when you believe it and repent and become part of His people. So that's the first task. Yeah. So what ends and we could go into the next phase, but it certainly where it starts that is, in the sense that central it means that the gospel the good news of what God has done in Christ has to be the, the integrating hub, as it were of everything else that we
want to do in mission. It's all held together by the centrality of the hospitals have big news of God and Christ.
So then what's his evangelism look like for people? Because I think, I mean, some people have different views of, you know, this is, this is the method of evangelism, whatever that is, whatever that means. But I think when we're couching it within, like, Hey, this is, this is the story of the world. This is the good news of what God had has brought. What then does evangelism mean for us? How can we witness how can we be witnesses of this story to the world?
Well, I think in a postmodern kind of world in which there's a great deal of skepticism of any stories, it does have to be a presentation of something which we want a that we want to say is good news. So it does come with bad news. Because, you know, the bad news is that God is against the evil and wickedness and where there is evil and wickedness, he's angry about it, and he's going to do something
about it. As we would expect, I mean, as any reasonable person would want, that evil should not have the last word people shouldn't get away with stuff, we think there's a sense in which we have a moral, a moral intuition that wrong, things need to be dealt with. And God says I will deal with it in the end. But that also means God will deal with every one of us. So there is there is a certain element of bad news. But the good news is God has done these
things. So to tell the Bible story is good news as a winsome, attractive, good news story, I think is very important. But I think the second way, and in fact, it this is indispensable is that the people who want to share good news need to be good
news. And that means as a church as a community of believers, there's a new Viggen said these words, I have them up somewhere over there, the only the only hermeneutic of the Gospel, the only thing that makes the gospel believable, is a community of men and women who not only believe it, but live by it. There has to be something which is demonstrating the truth of the gospel with people who are reconciled to one another.
People who are living in a new kind of a way, people who have hope in the face of despair, people who are doing good in a world of evil. People who are filled with joy, even when there's grief and sadness, there has to be a witness that is the in word and deed that is life and very much as a community life, not just in the individual. So those things I think are essential for any effective evangelism or using or gossiping in our world today.
Yeah. And that, yeah, that reminds me of Acts two, right after they said, you know, you will be my witnesses. And you know, the early church was, they were worshiping God, they were breaking bread together, they were, they were seeing signs and wonders and doing all sorts of things. But the end of acts to it says that they also received the favor of
the people around them. So it sounded like they were actually living this good news out that they were people that the people around them go, Wow, that's amazing. I want to be a part of that. And the numbers grew daily. Because they were living in and out not just believing what the good news is.
Yeah, I think that's certainly true. They're inaccurate is one of the things I tried to point out of my book is that, you know, the church grew through both the witness of the apostles bearing witness to the rest of the Crossman resurrection of Jesus, and the quality of life of the of the community of believers. And that's, that's, it's their acts. It's also there in the epistles. Because, you know, Paul repeatedly tells Christians to be doing good to be doing
good works. In fact, six times I think it is in three chapters of Titus, he talks about how the believers must be eager to do good works, ready to do good works, and he complains about people who were not ready for any good work. And when he's talking to slaves in that letter in chapter three, he even says that when, when Christian slaves of non Christian masters, behave in ways that are trustworthy, diligent, hard working, not talking back, and so on, and
just being good workers. Yeah. He says they can adorn the gospel of God, they can make the good news of God our Savior attractive there, actually, there's a kind of cosmetic aspect there, which that's the word he uses to make something beautiful, so that a non Christian slave owner will be attracted to what this slaves talks about when he talks about Christ or God or whatever it is, because he sees a difference in that life. And so it's quite
important. Jesus also says it too, doesn't he when he says Let your light so shine? among people that they may see your good works, not hear your great testimony, see your good works, and come to glorify your Father who didn't happen. So the practical demonstration of the goodness of the good news, I think, is important. And there's quite a lot of that in my book as well.
Yeah. And so, I mean, we just talked about one of the marks of mission that you write about, you wrote about five different Marks of Mission, and we talked about evangelism. But as we're doing the good works, then what are some of the other Marks of Mission?
Yes, well, the second half of the book picks up on a theme that was developed actually, within the Anglican Communion, the global Anglican Church, back in 1984, where they wrote a darkened where they spoke about quotes, the Five Marks of Mission. And I'm not suggesting it's the only one or the best one, I just find it quite helpful, because the high martra one was evangelism proclaiming the kingdom of God second was teaching and discipling new believers. So the
teaching work of the church. And then third was works on love and compassion and mercy, you know, feeding the hungry, and the sick and so on. Fourth, was seeking justice concerned about issues in society. And the fifth was the godly use of and care for creation, the we live on. And I think that all five of those do have not only have deep roots in the Bible, that are all there in the Bible, but also they can be connected, either directly or indirectly, to the Great
Commission. I mean, the first two are very clearly they're making disciples, baptizing them and teaching them Yeah, certainly includes evangelism and teaching. But teaching them to obey all that I commanded.
You said, Jesus, not teaching them all of that I told you, which could all just be up in the head, you know, I just taught you stuff, you teach others what I told, you know, he says, teaching them to obey what I commanded you which is, which has to do with practical obedience to the commands of Jesus, and he had plenty to say, but issues of love and compassion and generosity and forgiveness and, you know,
fairness of all those things. So it seems to be impossible to separate those aspects of social engagement with the world, and our neighborhoods, from what Jesus is talking about in terms of Christian mission, and indeed, the Great Commission, and then the care of creation, which I know is not played for the month among some of angelical. But I think it is very biblical. Jesus says, He's Lord of heaven and earth, so the Earth itself comes under the
Lordship of Christ. So you can't claim Jesus as my Lord, without recognizing that to say Jesus is nor it is also to talk about his lordship over creation, and his plans for creation. Now, as Paul says, that all creation has been reconciled to God through the blood of the cross, the cross itself is cosmic. Creation wide
in its in its implications. So there is a bread's two mission, which this book tries to bring out and reasonably simple language, which then affects not just the mission of God, but also how we participate in that the so what question what does this mean here, our involvement and mission?
Yeah, and so as we see, these see these marks of of mission as we're moving forward, and if you looking at, at the world today, a lot of people are calling others to be be authentic, right? This buzzword, authenticity is is is out there, but it really just means that what whatever you proclaim, you're living it out, right? You're not saying something that you're not living. And so what Jesus is calling us to do, and word and indeed is in mission to, to proclaim, but also to live it
out. What then, if you if you take a church community, actually living out mission, and they're part of the story of of God, what then in particular, what it looked like, say in a particular place, in in London.
But I think there are a number of areas there for if it's for church with thinking of, I mean, one I think has to be the very heart of the gospel is a reconciling power of Christ. That we are called to be one and to overcome, whether racial or cultural or economic divides the things that sort of normally
separate people into groups. The major thing about the New Testament Church is that you have slaves and masters listening to Paul for that was at the same time, yeah, men and women, they're your parents and children listening, that there seems to have been some quite remarkable affinity of the gospel. So To enable people to
live together. And that was not easy, because when you read Romans 14 and 15, you realize that actually part of the motivation report writing the whole letter to the Romans, is because they were Jewish background believers and Gentile background believers who were not able to get on, and telling them, You guys have got to accept one another, in spite of these differences, some of which were quite deep and theological.
Why was vulnerable is because he's, I want to go to Spain, to preach the gospel there, I want you to be supporting me. But I can't go with a gospel of reconciliation to Spain, if my supporting and home church is full of divided pneus. Because the A it's it, it's the integrity of my mission is at stake. But also the authenticity of the gospel is at stake, because how could he became a gospel of reconciliation? If it wasn't been proved true in the
charity, gatefold? And, you know, there's something of that that still affects us, I think, in the modern church, that, you know, how can we claim to be advocates for a gospel and take it to other parts of the world love reconciliation of Christ, and we really shouldn't be, you know, fighting one another, all of that, if our churches and
home are divided. And in tragically, Austin, now we struggled to maintain our unity because sometimes our either our ethnic, racial, they or our political divisions, you know, take precedence over our oneness in Christ or over the the fruit
of the cross together. I asked that one area, I think another area and he would have to be had to what extent is this church or this community, genuinely seeking to reach out to a to care for and to involve and include those who are on the edges and margins of society, those who are outside the margin the outcasts support? Because that seemed to be the way of Christ. You know, he was known as a friend of tax collectors
and sinners are prostitutes. And they meant it as an insult, of course, but he took it as a compliment, because those are the people who II said, we're going into the kingdom of God ahead of the religious people. And so if we're going to walk where Jesus walked that I think the church has got to have the authenticity, I have to be inclusive, where where people are on the edges, and that's,
again, very challenging. Which is one reason why I think the among the five marks admission on these concerns for human needs for works with compassion and mercy and indeed, to be advocates for justice for seeking to seek justice and do justice seek first the righteousness of God and the Kingdom of God and His justice lesson to those who hunger and
thirst for it since Jesus. So I think those are some of the ways in which a church community needs to be authenticating the message of what they preach.
Hmm. Yeah, that's really good to really think what does that really look like, on the ground with the community that you, you know, you're walking with as believers in Christ? And then what implications then does it have for cross cultural missionaries and going cross culturally?
Well, it certainly applies cross culturally. And even before we talk about cross cultural missionaries, I'd want to say that what I've just been talking about has actually been evidenced in the church today and down through the ages. I mean, Christians are one of the reasons why the Roman Empire eventually you know, capitulated to the Christian faith upon cupola that was because the pagans in Rome couldn't understand these Christ followers, who would stay around in Rome when the plague was
raging out. And when everybody was trying to get out of the city, they would stay behind and care for the sick, and not just their own sake, but are sick, they would say, they were amazed at the capacity of Christian love and compassion. And that was manifested, especially in those early centuries, the very first hospital real hospital in the world, was founded in Turkey in the middle of Turkey in capital ship, around about 360, led by Bishop basil, who is actually called the basil lair.
And it was basically a leprosy Henry and he brought together lepers and people suffering all kinds of diseases, he built buildings, he built a whole campus, which was for the sick.
And this was just incredible that there was something that was had never really been done the Roman or Greek empires before even though there were theories of healing and quite a lot with the Hippocratic oath and a lot of that with the stupid that there was, there was that but Christians became notorious for it from very earlier on. And today, right let
me give you two examples. At the height of the war in Syria, way back right after the so called Arab Spring, literally 1000s, up to a million Syrian refugees fled into Lebanon. Now Lebanon and Syria were enemies for years. In fact, the Nepalese regarded the Syrians, as you know that they are oppressors. And so what do you do, and you're a Lebanese Christian, and you've got these Syrians coming in most of them, of course, will
be Muslims. Well, there's the Lebanese churches managed with a great effort and great struggle, but they overcame it, to reach out to this influx of Syrian refugees to help them to feed them, clothe them, help with money, and so on, just to take them in and love them. How many of them then came to Christian churches, as talking to a Lebanese friend of mine who is part of a line of partnership
news in northern Lebanon. And he said that in his church on any average Sunday, 60% of the congregation in the building, are Syrian, also the refugees. And he said, many of them have come to face in Jesus, the bond was of the Messiah, because they'd never heard the gospel before. The same thing is happening today in Ukraine. Because, again, through the lines of partnership, we have about four or five lines of scholars, that is theological educators. I know about five seminaries in Ukraine, I was
there in 2018. And some of these brothers, they stayed in the country. They've they've organized refugee, how this for displaced people, people who are fleeing from the front lines are being showered and bombed by their homes. And they're reaching out with wealth, with food with cars to rescue them. And they're sharing the gospel, they're helping with Bibles, or holding communion services among the troops at the frontline in
the trenches. They're just being the hands and feet of Jesus, with with compassion and love in those situations. And people are saying why you do this, because Jesus loves you, we love Jesus, people are coming to fit. So the gospel is always made believable and authentic, when it's accompanied by people who do good stuff, that Jesus do good works out of love for Jesus and love for other people. It just goes together, it does. They don't have to be taught these
things. They just do it. Because it's kind of integral to just being who you are, as a matter of community of people who are followers of Jesus.
I mean, that's part of my story. My wife and I were in Jordan for four or five years working with Syrian refugees. And already with the Jordanian Christian churches there, they're reaching out with with love and compassion. And it was, it's a little harder for, for Muslims, to darken the door of a Jordanian Christian church. So there's a lot of home churches and things that are happening in the homes with
Syrians. And we were able to see that and we have we sent some people we have people in Lebanon see seeing that as well. My question was, like, you know, we, we saw a lot of, of Arab Muslims say yes to Jesus in the midst of this, that they found great hope with Jesus. And then we had some cross cultural missionaries, workers that were our friends that were praying for years for Muslims to be able
to see this. But once Christ is set, and we met a crisis with love and compassion, and we were able to point people to the hope of Jesus, we saw some some Arab Muslims saying yes to Jesus and wanting to walk in in that way. How do we is going around the world or cross culturally or just even across the street? How can we not wait for a crisis? To meet people with love and compassion so that they could find hope and Jesus
in you? Well, that's a good question. And there's, it's some ways in some ways that I'm not sure what the answer is, but it does sometimes seem that you will have people who have worked for years, sometimes generations in
the country. I mean, I did work in India for years and the North of India was used to be referred to as missionaries graveyard, you know, I mean, the number of people from Hindu or Outcast backgrounds had come to faith in Christ was cheated a little bit on any enrolled that and yet in more recent years, there's been considerable movements of group assaults, low cost and village people to faith in Jesus quite remarkable what's happening
there. So, in the providence of God, sometimes, seed has to be sown and fallen to the ground and die for a long time before it bears fruit under the Holy Spirit and sometimes happens when there is a crisis or an under God's providence. Bye Bad things happen which God turns to good, which doesn't make the bad things good. All right. One doesn't want to suggest for a moment that you know, the war in Syria was was God's way to do good now, go to God overcomes
evil. I Joseph said to his brothers, you know, you meant it for evil in through a bit annotating ceremony is slavery a new method for eating you jolly well, that he was trying to excuse them, but God intended
good for the safety of life. So God overreach at the Providence So, but in terms of of the longer term cross cultural missionaries, I suppose, God still does want and call for those who will go into tough places, who will be willing to pay and immerse themselves in a culture to learn the language to do their best to get inside the minds and hearts of people in that country in that culture. And then to live a month in such a way that the gospel becomes
believable. There are very few, but there are some believers in Afghanistan, you know. And in some cases, that is because there were physicians who were there as expatriates who, when, in the earlier days before, even before the Taliban came to talk, chose to stay on in the country through all the warlords and all the Civil War and enter the house and stick up their jobs of caring for the sick and, you know, doing cataract surgery and the blind, trekking into the
mountains. And so, and they, these people, they became known as having been nicknamed as the outsiders, the foreigners, became nicknamed, as the people who stayed to show the grace of God and a culture where Grace was really, you know, almost a word that didn't exist. So I think there is a place for that. And I would never want to, I would never want to say that there is going to be the end of an era when the cross cultural missionary from one country to
another will be unnecessary. All I would say is that today that is multi directional as you need. That mission is from everywhere, to everywhere. There's as much a mission field as anywhere else in the world. And you're just as likely today to see a Korean or a Brazilian missionary in Britain, as a British missionary in Brazil Khrushchev reversal in many ways, I'm good on it. That's the way it should be. And indeed,
that's the way it always was. I mean, there was a heyday of Western missionary expansion in the 19th century, in the early 20th century. But in many ways, the Christian mission has been happening all through the centuries of Christian history, right back to the early ones, as the gospel went east reached, you know, right into China by the sixth century. It was certainly there in Ethiopia and Sudan, Sub Saharan Africa, even before Patrick had brought it to
Ireland and from Ethiopia. The gospel had reached many parts of the then the old world for Britain or America became Christian so easy to recognize that the gospel is already in losing around the world in multicultural multi direction ways never just from the West in the rest. But we need to be realistic full but also humble about we can play in in Christian mission.
You I'd love for you just to briefly touch on some some general callings that we have and and mission and then our specific callings. What does that look like? Who are we as as believers in Jesus? What are the our general callings and mission?
Well, that's a good question. And I meant you could begin by as just saying the mission is far too important to be left to the missionaries. Yeah. In other words, when Jesus said to His disciples, Go and make disciples of all nations, you didn't say go pay 12% of unit to do the job for the rest of you. Now, the disciple making task is a task of the whole church, God, God's whole mission
is for God's whole church. And that must mean therefore, that all of us who are Christian believers are in some way or another, engaged in participating in the mission of God. And that must include, therefore the data to 95% of Christians who spend their working hours in the workplace in the world or in home making or parenting, or schools, hospitals, factories, whatever it may be. And that is where we are called to be serving Christ. That's where Paul tells Christian says it is the Lord
Christ you are serving. Yeah. And that is where our ministry and our mission is in the front line of the world, wherever people who have faith, are confronted with unbelief. And wherever the people who are citizens of the kingdom of God are engaging with those who are as yet citizens of the world, wherever that is, is the
frontliners mission. But yes, of course, then God calls Well, that's why, for example, John Stott used to say that it is a wonderful thing he said, to be a pastor or a missionary, if God calls you to it, but it is an equally wonderful thing to be. And then he does a whole lot of things, a movie maker, a television scriptwriter, a school teacher, a parent, if God calls you to it, if that is your gifting and calling, then go for it with God and be in it for God's sake, that is your
ministry in your mission. And so he would try to avoid using the language of ministry, just for the ordained pastoral ministry, or mission just for cross cultural missionaries. Without denying that, of course, God calls some and gives some to be pastors and teachers, as Paul says, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. And he called some to travel and to be intercultural cross cultural mission. It's an it all kinds of ways here. I was one once by parents were that in
Brazil. So but my, my mission, as a child of God didn't stop. When I came home from India, and started teaching in a theological college in Britain, I was basically doing the same job. I wasn't a missionary, just because I had taken a jet flight to some other part of the world, and then stopped being a missionary and I come home, I am on a mission for God. And five years it was in cross cultural mission. So I think we need to we need to get those those things sorted out and avoid
this. Some things are secular, some things are sacred, some things are ministry, some things for us, all of life should be under the Lordship of Christ and under the under the mandate of the bread commission.
Amen. Amen. I like to I have a couple questions. The amber before I get those two little questions I'd love to read this is one of the one of the last sentences you wrote in your book, says that mission is the mode of existence for the whole life of every member of God's whole
church. And I think that if we could, if we could get that and us that this is the the mode of existence, the mission, his mode of existence, for all of us, and all of the church, I think that would be fantastic if we could move our mindset and worldview into that direction. So two quick questions. One, if you could go back all the way back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give
back to my 21 year old self, when I was sort of just graduated, and a school teacher for those year high school teacher, I think I would have taught myself to read the Bible as a whole. I mean, I was very well taught in the Bible, I grew up by God's grace and great privilege in a Christian home and Christian church where I knew my Bible very well. But it was kind of all in bits and pieces. And then there were the missionary verses right, you know, he got the, with my father being a
missionary. And so I knew all the missionary verses, but I didn't until much later really see that the Bible is a big story, from creation to new creation, and I've got a place in it. And I need to sort of fit my life into the whole Bible story. I probably would want to say that to young 20s, and 30 years old today as well. What story are you living in? Don't just trust Jesus, as soon as you can go to heaven when you die, and that the main trend is live
in the world's story. No, you have not been grafted into a whole new story. Your life is part of the different a different narrative than the narratives the world wants to tell certainly different from the narrative of modernity, just progress just you know, let's all try and get better and better. This is the this is the story of the Bible is a true story. That's a real world. Think I've always wanted to tell myself that perhaps back
then, good. Anything you've been reading, or watching lately, you could recommend.
Well, I've been reading the book biblical critical theory, just from his words now, trying to get my head around that. But it seems in some ways, close to the sort of thing I've been saying, you know, the Bible as a whole story, but what that took is, is arguing also then Atkins, isn't it?
Christopher Watkins Yeah. Why it's been out to interview him. It's fantastic and excellent. Well,
The riddle critical theory, what are you saying is it's not just that the Bible is one big story. But every part of that story gives us a way of exercising insight and critique of our culture, whatever the culture is, it presents us with a way of evaluating and assessing the whole story. That's very similar to when I've sometimes said when I, when people asked me a question about this or that issue, I say, Well, what light
is shed on that issue? By every part of the Bible story, what leadership and by creation, by the fall, by Israel's law, by the prophets, by the Gospels, by Jesus, by the pistols and by our eschatology, so do a kind of Bible scan to connect with that is you don't just ask me for one Bible verse that souls bring the issue into the light of the Bible. I think that's what he's saying. I haven't yet read the whole book consciousness. Really.
It's a big one.
It's a big one. But it does seem to me to be, you know, on the blog in terms of using the Bible as a critical critical theory of the culture we live in. Yeah, so I would say. And then, just to say that there are lots of other books die being written by a majority world authored by people from Africa, Asia, and Latin America, which my organization aligned on partnership is publishing and trying to make available mass. So people can just go to langham.org. And and find those
there as well. We need to listen to the voices of the rest of the world.
Imagine, yes, we do. So go to langem.org, to find a lot of those and those books, I highly recommend your new book, The Great Story and The Great Commission for those of you who would like to read, it's fantastic to get us grounded in the whole story of the mission of God of the old story of, of the Bible. And then what is the the Great Commission have for us today? And how we could actually play our part within that story. So it's a fantastic book. Is there anything else that you'd
like to connect people into? At this time?
No, thank you, Joshua. Just thank you for the recommendation that was published by Vega, and a lot shorter than prisoner Watkins book about maybe dating or then moving on to the other one. But yeah, I think I would just say to people only to get into the Bible, but treated as a whole hadn't read it as a whole. And understand that we are on mission for God, this is the story of God in his world,
Chris, well, thank you so much. This is a great conversation. I loved being able to speak with you and for someone that I've really admired your writing and what you have done for for many years, and I've gotten a lot out of it. And it actually shifted the way that I actually see my role in life and how I enter
into the story of God. I just want to thank you that it was really a privilege to talk to you and hopefully, others can now see themselves within this big part of God's story, and know which story they're living in. So thank you so much for this conversation.
Thank you, Joshua. Thank you