Ep. 103 Kat Armas - A More Embodied Faith

review on your app. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps new listeners find the show. So thank you very much for doing that. Previous guests on the show have included Michelle Ferrigno, Warren, Lisa Rodriguez, Watson and Beth paws. You go back, listen to those amazing episodes and more. But today's guest is Kat Armis. Kat is a Cuban American writer and podcaster from Miami, Florida.

She holds a dual M div and MA T from fuller Theological Seminary where she was awarded the Frederick Buechner Award for Excellence in Writing. Her first book I will lead to faith sits at the intersection of women, D colonialism and the Bible and Cuban identity. She hosts the podcast the protagonistas, which centers the voices of black, indigenous and other women of

color in theological spaces. Kat is currently living in Nashville with her spouse and child and her second book, sacred belonging, a 40 day devotional on the liberating heart of Scripture releases September 2023. Kat and I have a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it. We talk about centering the marginalized her story and how that informs her faith, how to have a more embodied faith and a whole lot more. It's a great, great episode. Here's my conversation with Kat Armis.

Kat, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have you. Thanks for joining me. Yeah, thank

community. And as I mentioned, in my book, I would eat that faith, you know, the, the beacon of faith and spirituality in my life was via my grandmother. And that's all I knew, you know, I was raised in a very Cuban

environment. And so my culture was the dominant culture, you know, I really didn't realize that Cubans were not everywhere, all over the place, you know, all over the world event, you know, as a young kid, and all of my teachers, and everyone, you know, was from Mike Coltrane, if not Cuban, specifically, from the broader Latin X, you know,

community. And so it really wasn't until I left my Cuban haven of Miami that I experienced a culture shock, you know, and more ways than one, you know, I was raised by a single mother and a single

grandmother. And so of course, that influence how I understood women and just general I mean, not to say that machismo wasn't a big part of my culture, you know, at large, but, you know, but but because I was raised by a single mother and grandmother, you know, that has affected how I understood and how I viewed the world, you know, being raised in an immigrant community, being raised, where my culture with the dominant culture, all of these realities, you know, once I left, and I

began pursuing, you know, my own spirituality and formal, I say, quote, unquote, formal theological education, I was really met with a lot of existential crises, you know, I didn't know anything about evangelicalism growing up. And so I found myself, you know, in a very conservative, traditional context, and it was, that was very shocking for me, because I had no prior knowledge or

experience of that. And so as a woman to be told to submit and to be told all of these things, which, again, being raised by a single mother, you know, my mom was the provider, and, you know, the mother and the father and so

was my grandmother. And so, yeah, with a lot of things, you know, and, again, to go from an immigrant community to where, you know, the dominant culture was white culture, and, you know, yeah, white, European, you know, as far as spirituality, white, European theology and all of these things. And so, yeah, it was just very, again, just

shocking for me. And I began to experience a lot of just internal crises, like wait a minute, you know, all of these things, of what I'm being too hearts are, how to, you know how to be close to God, or how to commune with God or how to experience the divine. And they're just not in line with a lot of just how I experienced growing up. And so I began to really question my childhood, my culture, my up, I mean, everything about myself, you know, I began to really question

it. And that's where I'd began sort of my journey of discovery of really, you know, trying to, to reconcile these two things. And, you know, that's where I began to ask all these questions and challenge all of the things

that I was being taught in. And that's what I realized, you know, sort of the central or not realized, but that's where I begin asking the central question, and I already have faith that, you know, what if the greatest theologians the world has ever known, or those who in the world wouldn't consider theologians at all? And yeah, that was inspired by my wrestling with my I went out my grandmother as my, you know, primary theologian. So yeah.

opposite. How do we, how did you actually work out? Your upbringing, the good things about what you've found in your inner grandmother's faith, and then your new evangelical culture? And how do you take the good things of that, and then bring a balance to that in your in your own life?

right now. And, you know, since kind of maybe discovering or trying to elaborate on this already, death date, has been a lot of reclaiming a lot of my, you know, space and spirituality that I had as a kid, you know, because as I said, I was told that it wasn't legitimate, that it wasn't, you know, and so there were years that I suffered so much, because I thought my grandmother, you know, like this, she loved the church, she loved Jesus, and I'm here believing that she's going to

hell, you know, and I was like, I suffered so much believing that she wasn't saved, you know. And so I think, for me, it's a lot of that reclaiming, and even, you know, growing up Catholic, you know, the Bible isn't the sacraments, I would say, are the main sort of things. And, you know, we

practice the sacraments. And, of course, we care about the Bible, but I didn't study the Bible, the way that I, you know, did once I was introduced to Protestantism, or evangelicalism, and so, you know, I would say that that's a positive thing that I took from evangelicalism and so through my study of the Bible, you know, I just found it to be so fascinating, the Bible, such an interesting, bizarre book, you know, I find it I found it to be

so interesting. And it was through my study of scripture that I was able to reconcile so much of my upbringing, so much, you know, of my culture. And that was really studying the women of the Bible and seeing

these patterns. You know, I'm studying scripture, and I'm saying, wait a minute, you know, the story of Rispa, the story of Ruth, or there's all these stories, I'm seeing these connections to not just my own life, and my, you know, my culture and the women in my family, but throughout history, and I'm seeing all of these threads connect. And so I think that was helpful for me, is that, you know, of course, I experienced cynicism. And of

course, I was angry. And of course, you know, I experienced all of the things, I let myself experience that, you know, I thought it was important for me to just sit, you know, I was angry for years, you know, very angry, but I use that anger to just continue to dig in and continue to search and continue to question and continue to find, you know, I didn't use that anger to shut myself off. But, you know, I think anger can be a positive thing in some

ways. Not always, I think, you know, anger can be destructive, and you know, but anger can also be, I think, a good tool if we're, if we use it wisely. I actually talk a lot about, I have a book coming out this year, at the end of the year, well in the fall, and one of my reflections is on anger. And I talked about how if you read the story of Jonah, one of the questions that God keeps asking Jonah is, is your anger a good

thing? And we tend to when we read that question, we tend to think that God is like being like cause your anger go to that you know, but you know, I kind of question that I say, Well, what is God is Asking that in an inviting tone, like, what if God is genuinely inviting Jonah to wonder if his anger is a good thing? You know, and what is that? You know, can? Maybe in some ways it was, maybe in some ways it wasn't or maybe in some ways that anger started off as a not good thing and then led to

be a good thing, right? Or vice versa, whatever. So anyways, I said all that to say that, you know, it was really working through that anger and that cynicism and continuing to ask questions and continuing to dig deeper and continuing to let it motivate me to find liberation, where I think I found, yeah, a

good a good middle ground. And that was reclaiming the faith of my when I say ancestors, reclaiming the faith of my grandmother, while also taking some of the things that I've learned in the new faith tradition that I sort of find myself in. Yeah, just bringing those both together. If that answered your question.

But I don't always need to be the one that has centered in the the help, I need to figure out how to center the marginalized community in this injustice, how do I bring my righteous anger, this anger that I feel of injustice, and help a marginalized community in a way that's as healthy and actually amplifies the voice of the neglected and marginalize and not hurts in the midst of it?

think, contextual. You know, I think it all just depends on who your community is, what your context is, what connections you might have, what your platform looks like, what you know, and so I think it all just depends person to person, but something that I like to sort of reflect on is I'm really big on, you know, recognizing and naming the our Lita theologians in my life and doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, immigrant women, but just the overlooked, you

know, unrecognized. Yeah, theologians in my midst, and I like to know who they are right, and have a relationship with them. And it's so it's not just this, you know, ethereal sort of, oh, yeah, Damar, you know, because that's what we do with all communities, right, like the Latino community, the black community. But we're also diverse, and we all have, you know, such different

experiences. And so I'd like to, I think, for me, my first step, you know, because of course, I carry very varying levels of privilege to is named recognize, I would need to theologians in my life, those unrecognized and overlooked people in my life, whether it's my literal neighbors, or just people that I've learned from in my midst people have connected with, in

different ways. And it starts from, you know, really, what I like to say is naming them, you know, knowing them, and then also just like saying nothing and learning from them, okay, like literally not offering anything, you know, for example, I have this one neighbor, her name is Jessie, she's been in the community for, you know,

years been in our community. And when I moved here a couple years ago, and whenever there's something happening in the news or some bite on Twitter, you know, I'd love to just, like, get her opinion on it, you know, like, what do you think about this, Jesse, like, you've been here for a long time, you know, she's an older black woman, like, she's been in the struggle for a long time. And, you know, in many ways, I carry so many

privileges. You know, I'm so privileged compared to my friend and my neighbor, and we just sit and we talk, and I consider her, you know, I will need a theologian in my life, you know, and a lot of times it requires me not necessarily saying or doing anything but me offering, you know, myself as a, just a person of, you know, in

mutuality. And I say that, because then those of us with varying levels of privilege, we want to be the ones to, quote unquote, help or be the ones to, you know, yeah, just be the leaders are they, you know, I like seeing all the faith that Jesus was a good guest, you know, he wasn't necessarily the host of a party. He wasn't necessarily the one, you know, telling folks what to eat what to talk about, or, you know, he

was just sitting as a guest. And I think that that's really important for many of us in this journey, like, Where can we be a guest? Where can we just sit and learn and receive that. In mutuality, we're not necessarily positioning ourselves as the one with the supreme knowledge or positioning ourselves. And the ones that have to necessarily, quote unquote, do something,

right. And so sometimes I just sit and I listen, and in that, you know, I'm able to then, you know, do whatever I need to do in my midst, whether it's, you know, offer any sort of service that I need to offer to my friends in the neighborhood, or whether it's, you know, vote a specific certain way or, but it really requires me just recognizing and naming those our leader theologians, and then just like doing nothing but listening for a good long time. So I know what the needs are,

right? A lot of times we have when, when we you know, speak of the marginalized and sort of broad that we assume we know what the marginalized need. I mean, that's the problem with you know, so many short term missions, right? Yep, we show up

somewhere. And we say, What you need is a new, you know, building, but maybe they don't need a new building, you don't know, like, when we show up, and we say what you need is this a lot of times, it's not what the folks need, you know, and so, I think it just starts with being a good guest

describe it. And, you know, yes, like, it's similar to the Spanish translation, where that's how I understood it growing up, you know, Jesus was a verb. You know, Jesus was an action. You know, Jesus was the action of God, it wasn't something that lives in your mind that intellectual endeavor. It wasn't a knowledge, a heady knowledge, but it was a bodily Embodied Reality. You know, and I think that that's so much of what I wrestle with in our elite athlete, you know, what is

theology? Well, theology is using your hands and your body theology is dancing, and theology is sewing and theology is setting the table, like, those are all weighing that we theologizing not just reading and, you know, whatever else. I mean, that's good, too. I love you know, the academy. I have several master's degrees. But you know, I think it's, it also requires art, you know, for us to be embodied.

nerve. Again, for my upcoming books, everything that I think about in the book, so forgive me for you know, all of these great tangents but but um, I did some research on the vagus nerve. And I think what's incredible is that they found that the vagus nerve, it's, you know, travels throughout your entire body, from your head all the way down to you know, all your organs, everything, like this incredible nerve. And it's the nerve that communicates information from

our body to our our brains. But what's interesting is that the communication, you know, we talk about how our brain talk to our bodies, but what they found with the vagus nerve is the information travels up to the brain. And so it's the body that talks to the brain, meaning that everything that happened, it's experience First in the body, and then the brain catches up, though really, I mean, it's everything starts with the body.

And when I think about, you know what that means spiritually, you think about, you know, Jesus's body was central to everything. I mean, we we practice our spirit, you know, Christianity because of Jesus's body, literally dying on the cross. And then Jesus says, eat my flesh, you know, drink My Blood, like this is very bodily, obviously, you know, in that sense, he met spiritually, but it's still a very physical

embodied. Image, right. And so, I think it just starts with seeing the mind and body as one, you know, connecting to your body, knowing what your body's feeling, knowing what your body is experiencing, knowing the emotion that are coming from your body, and being really in tune with them. I think that's

really important. And then I think, also, it's a matter of connecting to all of the, you know, when we think of the natural world, you know, we, again, we have this because of colonialism and because of Western ideology, this idea that we have ownership or hierarchy over the natural world, but how can we see ourselves in a mutual

relationship? I think that also speaks a lot to embodiment, you know, seeing how the natural world and you know, how we connect with the natural world, I think that's part of it, you know, thing that we, you know, understanding that we are our

bodies. And then also what are things that we do with our bodies with our hands, that speak to the things of God and so that's why we definitely talk about sewing, you know, I don't, I'm not adult, so the way that my grandmother so you know, but that for her was what I argue a spiritual reality. I mean, she's, so to provide it, she sewed, you know, to do all to provide for our family and to, you know, serve the community, but it was she used her hands.

So I argue that in that she loved and she served and she did so many things, as we see in Scripture, right habit that's sewed and she was considered a disciple, right? She was considered, I mean, they called her to resurrect her, you know, like, That's how important she was in the community. And it was through the work of her hands. And so, what I like to ask, you know, what are some ways you use

your body? It as a way to meditate as a way to connect with God, you know, for example, my husband, he loves to birdwatch, you know, and I consider that a form of bodied, you know, way to connect with the divine, you know, so what are some things that you love to do or that folks have to do that involves literally your body? And how can you see that as a form of of connecting with God?

the every day. So as I read on what it looks like to actually use your body, even just that the art of, of making and creating and selling is that is a spiritual act of worship. And yes, you that it is, it is good. And so as we interact in in the world, and maybe in the natural world, how can we start to recognize what is happening, and take it in, so that we can start so reflect in and say, we are here together? This is divine, this is sacred, this is good,

this is holy. What are some ways that we could go in the world just every day and recognize those things?

And then like set up a pillar and like, you know, set up like a sacred and name the place, right? Like, Jacob does that a couple of times, and I can't remember who else specifically does it but it happens, you know, to more than one person and it happens more than once. And so, I think that that to me, is such a like relatable whole experience, you know what I

mean? Like, you're just going through life, just living your life and you're, you know, thinking about whatever and doing whatever, and you're just being a human and you're busy and you don't. And that it takes a moment for you to recognize, wait a minute, this was sacred.

And it's doesn't stop there, realize that sacred but you like physically consecrate that you whether it's, you know, I love, something that I started doing is just, if that happens, you know, set up a little tiny altar, you know, I get little stones, or just a little tiny thing of remembrance over Wait a minute, you know, and that moment was sacred, whether it's physically where it happened, or even, you know, just writing it down or commemorating, you know, consecrating that moment, that

thing, a secret. And so I think it requires us to pay attention, I think it requires, you know, I know that the whole idea of being present is like a buzz, you know, idea now, and we kind of throw it around. But really, it just requires us to be expectant that God is in every moment in every situation. Because we see that in the Bible. I mean, people don't really think God would be there. And then they're just kind of going about their day, like, Well, wait a minute, you know.

So I think, imagine if we kind of lived that way. And we physically did things to remind us of that. And then I think that becomes a spiritual practice. And it kind of becomes second nature. And I know for me, you know, as I'm going about my day, and I think, oh, wait a minute, you know, God is here. You know, what happened to me yesterday, I was at the park with my kid, and, you know, it's

just a regular day. And, you know, I had to stop, I think, you know, a minute, this is a sacred moment, like, this is I'm out here and there are birds, and, you know, my kids playing in the garage, like, it was just, it just felt like a sacred moment. And so, yeah, I just wanted to remember that I came home and I just wrote a little, little note to myself with a little date. And I said, remember that this moment is

sacred, you know. And so I think that that's a way that we can index with the natural world just in just in general, you know, pay attention, and then give ourselves a physical reminder. So that, you know, we can actually remember, you know,

moments? The goodness and faithfulness of God?

oppress, right? Like, and I love, I just love that detail. Because it's not just like, oh, you know, like this, remember? No, it's remember, so that you can serve better serve, so that you can, you know, enter into wholeness into yourself, remember, so that you don't turn into the very thing that that, you know, I saved you from it to the very thing that you hate. And so that's just like a side note, I love that I love that goddess zoom. So intentional in

that in that way. And I think that that's like, literally an

invitation into wholeness. You know, for all of us, um, but I think, you know, some some things, some practices, you know, as I mentioned, you know, just doing physical reminders, I mean, what are the ways that are reclaiming, you know, the state of my ancestors and my faith, my Iowa State is having these altars, you know, having these little altars and, you know, lighting candles, and I have a devotion that I write about on the four elements, and there's, there's so much power in

including the four elements and we see this in the Bible, including the four elements into your life. And so, you know, fire water, earth, you know, wind, how can we literally invite the natural world into a relationship with us, and also a relationship with God, you know, how can we have a holistic vision of the again, God being

in all things, right? We believe that God is in all things, how can we invite all of that into a relationship, into communion into our spirituality, right, because our spirituality again, as we talked about earlier, we tend to think that it's just in our minds, we tend to think our spirituality lives in what we think, but our spirituality lives and all the things, how we process our experiences, everything and so I think, yeah, just again, those physical Well, reminders, and then, you know,

taking it a step further, how can these physical reminders invite me into wholeness to? How can you invite me into thinking

about my neighbor? How can an invite me into, you know, fighting for justice, where I'm at whether it's, you know, sitting at a board meeting, or sitting at a, you know, a meeting or a community meeting, or whatever it is, you know, I think that as God invites folks into wholeness, for the sake of neighbor, you know, how can we, as we remember, and as we are, as we stepped into wholeness, then take that a step further

for those around us? You know, it starts with our families, and then it, you know, kind of moves on from there.

know? What's the word? You know, shallow, like, small talk, like, talking about the weather is something that we, you know, we try to avoid, right, when we meet someone new, like, Oh, this is awkward, you know what, but I had been thinking about that, because I've been doing a lot of research on like, eco feminism and the connection between nature and women, the domination of nature and the domination of

women. And I realized know how nature excuse me how the weather is so interrelated into so many marginalized, I mean, people live by the weather, you know, if it if the weather is not, you know, if it's rains too much, there goes, your food supply. If it rains too little, there goes your foods, I mean, literally, the weather is sustenance. And for me, just realizing this was

such a spiritual thing. And I know, I probably sound like I'm going off on a complete tangent from what you asked, but, but it really realizing this and realizing like, wow, for those of us who carry varying levels of privilege, but those of us in the, in the Western world, we overlook so many things, we, you know, because of the privileges that we have, and, you know, we don't even think something like the weather is so minimal to us,

right? It means nothing. I mean, sometimes, yeah, plans, whatever, you know, plans are ruined, but it just, you know, it's something that we, it's so trivial, it's the word that I've been trying to find in my brain is so trivial to us. But for other folks, it is literally

everything, right? And that really so much of how I view mean, so many things, you know, obviously now, I think talking about the weather, you know, I've made it a practice to talk about the weather, and it not be like an awkward thing, because I'm like, No, I want to this is a way for me to connect with others who are at the mercy of Mother Nature, this is a way for me, just in my mind to remember all the time that, you know, something that, to me is trivial, is not to the literally

the rest of the world. And so, anyways, you said like, you know, this changes the way that we view things. And I think that yeah, like, if we're able to shift our mindset, so that our experience is not then you know, Central, which is hard for artists, I know that experience is going to be essential, because it's but you know, to also to kind of shift even from how we talk about everyday

reality. I think that that, you know, really does change how we experience and understand the divine, you know, because people are praying, you know, about the leader doing dances that you know, all these things, that the ways that others connect with God in so many different ways, whether it's like through the weather, and I think for me, it's been such a shift in me. And it starts with Yeah, recognizing, you know, again, paying attention, recognizing that God is is is an all thing

that all things are sacred. And also like how does how does my neighbor even my neighbor across the world experience God and how can I honor that? It could be from you know, something as simple as you know, recognizing Yeah, the importance of the weather or whatever, you know what I need, that's one example but but yeah, it really does teach everything going back to what you were, you know, really does like how you think and how you teach and how you process so

week. Ray Oh, exactly, it's so important that we see it as integrated into all of life and right into into all things is there as you became a mother didn't How did that change any of your reflection of the way that you saw your your mother, your grandmother, the way that you were raised? And the theology the spirituality that that you've been given?

about so much. I think it's been hard in, in great in many ways, I would say it's been beautiful, because I see this, you know, sort of our leader theology that's embodied theology inherently in my kid, you know, I kids are embodied beings, you know, and so, I see this in my child, and I want to continue fostering that, you know, fostering the relationship, I mean, there's a beautiful relationship with her body, right, because the world hasn't

told her not to. And so I want to continue fostering that, and it teaches me and I, and I'm learning so much from it, and, and just the way I see how so much is passed on, right. In, in us in our, in our, in who we are, you know, spiritually and physically. But it's also been hard, because, you know, my family went through a lot of trauma, you know, my family experienced a lot of horrible things, and, you know, my, in a lot of ways, they weren't fully

healed. And so, you know, I look at my grandmother in her life, and all the beautiful things that she passed on to me, you know, this sort of embodied way of being in this way of experiencing God, but there's many ways that I see how my grandmother passed on, you know, her trauma to my mother, you

know, pass that on to me. And so, that's been, you know, hard, it's been hard to work through that and try to, you know, really understand and accept that they did the best they could with the resources that they had in so, you know, I have to acknowledge that, but also, how can I do better, right, as, as a parent, how can I, you know, were How can I heal my colonial wounds and, you know, heal the wounds that were passed on to me from exile, and from all of these really hard things,

but also the beautiful things about, you know, because even in exile, my family has such a deep connection with their island with Cuba, you know, with our island and Nike right now with the Deaf Bay. Although I've never lived in Cuba, Cuba lives in me, and it's a part of who I am, right. And so I want to pass on that to my kid. And at the same time, you know, all of the the damage of that exile did to my family, I want to make sure that I am healed, so that I don't pass on those wounds to my

kid. And so it's been beautiful, and it's been hard, right? At all things in life are beautiful, our tension between the joy and sorrow and painting, and you know, all of those things and enjoy. And yeah, so anyways, I think it's been a lot of healing wounds that I are still there. Yeah.

my child, how to heal. As we then start to recognize those things and the places of trauma are there are some things that you've started to recognize, like a this is a way to, to deal with that and start to heal from it. Once you recognize it within your own parenting?

not be spiritualize. And we tend to, like, you know, we look at the stories of so many, particularly women in the Bible, and we say, oh, look out, you know, all of these spiritual, it's like, no, it wasn't a net worth thinking in a lot of ways, anything other than literally trying to eat, and like literally trying to feed their themselves and their families and in a secure a future for themselves. And I think that that's okay. Like, we don't want

to spiritualize that. And I think what's so beautiful and interesting about that is, in that just plain old survival, there's still called Blessed and righteous and holy, I mean, if you think about the story of Tamar after she, like, you know, basically tricks her father in law to sleeping with her gets pregnant, he finds out like, he's like, Oh, my gosh, it was you? And she's like, Yeah, and he goes, You are he literally called her righteous? You know,

it's just so interesting. You know, people have pushed back on that, you know, like, Well, her action, whatever. And, yes, that's fine. But it's still there. Right? Like, you know, we can get into the nitty gritty of it. But at the end of the day, she still considered righteous because he was, you know, she was wise enough to do what she needed to do to secure her

future. And so I think, you know, that I think about that a lot in terms of my my family history and parenting, right, or just, you know, I think about how so much of it was survival, you know, and I honor that, and I honor what it was, and I honor what it is, and I honor that survival is tricky, and survival is complicated, and survival forces people to do things that they wouldn't normally do, you know, survival forces folks to

lie and cheat. And no, I mean, again, we see this and in the stories in Scripture, but morally, it's it, you know, again, they're called righteous, and they're called and less, and they're called all all of these things, because they're doing it for their future and the future, the generations that will come after them. Yeah. And it's perfectly okay. A context because of the context of what

of what is going on. And so anyways, I think about that, and I think about, you know, processing so much of what I went through as a child, I want to honor that. But also, and I wrote about this on Instagram recently, I also want to be clear about something. When I say survival is sacred, and survival is holy. And, you know, people were called Blessed and righteous for surviving. I don't think your survival is just is the goal. I don't think that's the plan. I don't think just

mere scraping by. It's the reality for many people, I think, in many ways, it was the reality for my family. But because of the resources that I have, what they their survival brought me because of my resources, I think my job is to take it a step further. And I think, our job, or our goal is not just survival, but it's that we thrive, that we live that abundant life that Jesus that He

came for, right. And that can look many different ways, of course, and that just doesn't necessarily mean you know, I bought a dying house. And I know, but you know, abundant life, I think, for me, is wholeness is healing, and I heal for myself, and for future generations, so that we can work to heal our communities and heal the layout. And you'll all have those around us. Because when we heal, and when we are whole, we pass that healing and wholeness on and it affects everyone we

come in contact with. Right? So yeah, so it's a matter of me, healing and wholeness recognizing the survival that my family, you know, the survival they enacted, but also taking that a step further, and how can I now that with the resources that I have, you know, being an agent of healing and wholeness to everyone around me, starting with my kid, and also every single person, my neighbor, just the right, you know, like, just everyone around me, you know, my extended family and even offer

that hearing back to my mom back to, you know, there's an indigenous teaching that said, when you heal, you heal seven generations forward, but also seven generations back, which I think is so beautiful, like, you're not just healing for the future, but you're healing yet you're literally healing wrongs.

You're stopping them from, you know, continuing on, but you're also like, going backward, like, you're saying, No, this ends here, you know, and you're able to, you know, just make a change forward and backward and, you know, in all in all sort of way so, anyway, I Yeah, looks sort of like but I think it's vital for the parent now.

just so complicated. And I think I, I think I thought, I think I thought that things were linear, I think that I, you know, you move forward, and then you take the next step, and then you, you know, you make this career choice and that lead, you know, but I realized that now, I mean, not that I'm, you know, so old and wise, but realize now that life is is not linear. Time is not linear. Things are, you know, their patterns and cycles, and, you know, we make a deal, but then we have to, like, go

back and heal again. And we may forgive, but we have to go back and forgive again. And, you know, we may make that great career choice. And, you know, we're doing awesome, and then all sudden, we change our minds, and then we start all over. And we, you know, we go down a

different path. And I think, yeah, as I get older, I realize that the life is cycles of patterns and seasons, and I think it would have been helpful to kind of rest in that reality years ago, that kind of make it to the next thing, and then the next thing and then, you know, like, like, climbing up a linear mountain, you know, in one direction. And that's not that's not what life is.

this conversation. It was it was a pleasure to talk to you and a lot of wisdom was gleaned here. So thank you so much.