Can One Partner Give You Everything?

but everything she told me is true. And I promised that Monique is going to make you rethink almost everything that you think you know about women, their sexual desires and monogamy. Let's just say you like to play tennis, and you're really good at it, like really good, and at some point you go to your partner and you say, you know what, I really need to a tennis with somebody who plays tennis at my lovel one. Nobody would say, oh no, don't go find that person. You'd be like, yeah,

I probably get it. You know, you love this, this is one of your favorite things in the whole world. Go find somebody who's into it as you are. If you take out tennis and say really fun, really great sex, yeah, then suddenly it's not the same kind of activity. In American culture, we don't really accept non monogamous relationships, and we also expect one partner to fulfill absolutely all of our needs financial partner, lover, intellectual, equal, friend, soulmate, person

to watch all of our television shows with. But that notion of one person fulfilling every single thing that we need in life, checking off every single one of our boxes does not exist in most other parts of the world. For sample, in France, were more than half of the population find it morally acceptable for married people to have affairs.

When I was doing research for my book How to Be Married, I interviewed dozens of frenchwomen about monogamy and they told me something that I still think about seven years after I wrote that book. They said that just having the option of being with another man, and the fact that their husbands or their long term boyfriends also had the option to be with another woman, that gave them both a sense of freedom and agency that we don't always feel in our marriages in the United States.

But before we get into how having an affair shifted Monique's understanding of monogamy. I wanted to find out why she decided to cheat on her husband in the first place. Tell me a little bit about when you decided to first start having an affair. How did that come about? I mean my mid fifties. I have two children, they are pretty much grown, and I have been married this

year thirty years. There was one evening where we had had some wine and started talking and I kind of trotted out my bucket list, like I thought, Hey, the kids are in a good place. When you have small children, typically your intimate relationship takes a little bit of a back seat. So I was thinking, oh, now's the time. Right here. We are in northern California and it's a very open and accepting place. I was thinking there might

be some unconventional animus that we could pursue. I had had a really wonderful threesome when I was in college, and I thought that that would be something that I would like to repeat. You know, it was fun being with a woman, and I thought, you know, and in his right mind is going to turn down a woman telling him, Yeah, I'd really like to bring another woman into our bed. But you know, he just wasn't interested.

I just wanted to dispoisse things up. And the response I got was kind of like why Monique was so disappointed by her husband's answer. She was craving something different, something more exciting, something passionate, especially after having her kids and then finally getting back in touch with her body. But her husband, it was just content with the status quo.

And even though Monique had grown up Catholic in an area where everyone just accepted monogamy was the only thing that you could do, she was starting to get more exposed to people with less traditional lifestyles. So Monique started looking for what else was out there. I guess heard of me was kind of looking to see if any of the things that I was into we're actually available, And of course, you know that's just naive. You go

online and of course anything you're into is available. So it was just a matter I think, then, of deciding to take an opportunity. So you went online, How do you even start when you go online? And then what made you finally take the plunge and do it the first time? So you know, back in the day, it was craigslist. You know, you could go on craigslist and you could find anything, you know, from adult nursing relationship to garden furniture, I mean really whatever you needed, and

you could find it on Craigslist. I got I got a great patio set, see and I sold mine. So I think that was when I just, you know, I had been one of the things that I had kind of broached with my spouse was besides the three way, I'd always been kind of loosely interested and BDSM And I know that that's very specific and that you know, either you're into it or you're not, But that was

kind of where I started. So I saw, you know, that was obviously an easy thing, but I also found, you know, there was this couple looking for a unicorn. We explained to me what a unicorn is. A unicorn is basically somebody who comes in with a couple's looking for a third and I think that the tougher thing is often it's easier to find a woman who's willing to play with the guy but not the woman, So to find somebody who's into both sides of the couple

is a little bit harder, Hence the unicorn. But anyway, I decided to answer this ad and I met this couple and I thought they were great, and then it petered out, so that actually never happened, but I think in my mind that kind of opened the door where I was just like, Okay, this is going to have to be something you do. So even though her first attempt failed, Monique could not get this out of our head,

and she tried Craigslist again. This time she crafted a really good ad and got what she thought was the perfect response. So, you know, we kept corresponding and he was single and initially not at all on board. He wasn't going for a married woman. He was looking for a single person. But then at some point we decided to have a beer together that was very low key, and you know, after that we met again, and then

at some point it happened. Was kind of unplanned, I think, because he had always said he wasn't interested in a married woman, and you know, at that point, I wasn't even really sure what this saw about. But you know, like I said, once you kind of opened your mind to the possibility, there must have been a certain electricity there. And he was a lot more experienced, so that was really exciting. And I saw this person for twelve years, twelve years. That's a long time. How did you keep

it separate from what are the logistics? How do you talk? How do you meet? How do you keep everything a secret? I think the trick is that sounds nasty in a way because I think most people associate affairs with like crazy passion. But it really wasn't like that. It was pretty calculated. We kept everything The email really depended a lot on his work schedule and availability at the time.

I was working part time, and I would go down and see him, but usually during the day and definitely never anywhere near where either of us lived, and I never went to his house. We never came to mind, I think, despite the fact that we were doing this on enough for twelve years. I bet you if you asked him what are her children's names, he wouldn't know. So it was very compartmentalized. It was you were able to be like, this is sex and my marriage is

something else. Yeah, you know, and often I've actually said this to friends of mine. You know. The weird thing about monogamy is it's like saying red is your favorite color, and then you have to wear red and only red for the rest of your days. What if I wake up and I feel like wearing yellow is that me? And red isn't my favorite color anymore? No, of course not.

And you would think that somebody was either a lunatic or an artist if they were the same color every single day, or ate the same food like I only eat proccoli, you would think they're a lunatic or a toddler. Really, my son only it's chicken nuggets, and I do think he is a lunatic. Yeah, well, you know, you're exactly right. But at that point you're telling your kids, oh, you know, just take a bite, just try it, because you want them to have a broad experience of life. And this

is the thing. You kind of sit there and you look back and you think, well, yes, I'm married and I raised two children. There's some lovely stability that goes with that. But you do, as a grown up close yourself off to a lot of experiences. Different people bring different things to the table, and it's just like I just happen to really like a full table. Within the last fifty years, there's been the shift that we need

to get absolutely everything from our monogamous partner. This idea that our partners should complete us, our partners should make us better people. That's doctor Ashley Thompson. Doctor Thompson is the director of the Sexuality and Relationships Science Lab at the University of Minnesota, Duluth. She's a sex professor and a really good one. I asked doctor Thompson what the research, the actual research says about monogamy and if it's really possible for one partner to satisfy all of our needs.

We have a variety of needs in our relationship. If all of your needs are met but one, let's say emotional needs aren't being met, I would still argue that you're in a pretty damn good relationship if the majority

of your needs are being met. But that's looked at negatively by society, right, and so I would argue that as a society, we need to shift these ideas about getting everything from a partner and normalizing that it's okay to go to somebody else for emotional fulfillment whatever those needs might be, and every other need, but the sexual need is being met by your partner. Again, I would say, you're doing pretty great. But sex again, is this taboo area that, oh, this person's having to go outside of

the relationship to get their sexual needs met. Oh what an awful human right, so taboo, so terrible. It's like, we're placing such pressure on our partner that, let's be honest, nobody can fulfill every single one of our needs. Like the Jerry McGuire, You complete me, Yes, that's exactly it. Jerry McGuire remember that movie. I remember when I first thought as a very impressionable teenager or twenty something, and I thought that line was so freaking stupid. Of course,

one person isn't going to complete me. And that is why, since I got married seven years ago, I'll have male friends and female friends and work colleagues and all sorts of people that I go to besides my husband for fun and yeah, occasional bitching about the man that I'm married to. But I've got to say, I've never considered going outside of my marriage to find sex, to find different kinds of sex, maybe even better sex. But I think I haven't thought about it because sex is this

huge cultural taboo. But maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe finding a different sexual partner is just like Monique said, it's just like going out there and finding someone else to play tennis with. Or is that taking things too far? We'll find out more. After a quick break, when we learn more about monique story, we're back what she wants more. Monique's twelve year affair opened her up to a lot more sexual experimentation, and once she opened that door, it

was impossible to shut it again. There wasn't a lot that was out of bounds. So that was really exciting. I'd had one aboordive attempt at anal sex when I was a young person, but I had kind of wanted to try it again and my husband was just like, no way, I'm not doing that, And I really wanted to find out what it was like. You know, that was exciting. Did he do the BDSM that you were curious about? No, that was someone else. You know, this

guy that I was with for twelve years. He was by far and away and not the only person that I hooked up with in that time. Every once in a while, other opportunities would present them thousand Once you've done it at once, now it's just like, hmm, do I really want to pass up on that? So I did actually meet a couple and we did involve BD sent.

The whole scene was a birthday present for a partner could have been listening very closely to some of the fantasies that she had related and decided that it was a high time to make some of them happen. So he was looking for a third person for them. She wanted to submit to a woman, and she wanted like a kind of Victorian scene. So you know, there was a costume and boots and the strap on and a good time was had by all. But after that, you know, it was like, gee, that was fun, thanks a lot,

and that was it. Like we didn't see each other again after that. Maybe they did other things with other people and it was wonderful. And this is the thing I feel like some of the people that I've been with a lot of it is just the opportunity to meet on an intimate level the kind of person that I would probably not otherwise encountering. For example, I went on a conference and met at the bar a very much younger man in his twenties, and at that point

I was fifty, and you know, we start talking. That's how I know I knew how old he was. But he seemed extremely self possessed, you know, really pulled together, intelligent. We're having this nice conversation because what else am I going to do on there about myself anyway, And at some point I'm thinking, Jesus, guy's flirting with me, and of course my fifty year old brain is going, yeah, I know, he just said he was twenty seventy. I'm

just imagining things. But I'm like, are you flirting with me? And it's like, god, yeah, you know, it's just like I'm trying, and I'm like, right, I've been very blocker than you've been alive, and he's just like, so, you know, that kind of adventurousness is really a turn on for me. And we did end up hooking up, and it was really like, when else am I ever going to interact with somebody that age? You know, those are my children's friends,

and that would be weird and inappropriate. So we you know, we ended up spending the weekend together. He picked my brains about being an older woman and with lots of experience, and we talked about all sorts of stuff, and after that, I ended up googling him later, just like cool, Okay, that's interesting. He actually turned out to be that accomplished and I'm so glad we crossed paths. I could have said no to that experience just because I wouldn't have

gained so many interesting insights. It didn't harm him, it didn't harm me. I could have passed up on something really great for no good reason. So a lot of it is about more than sex. It's expanding your world, it's meeting new people. Yeah, I think so. I don't know that that was what I was looking for when I started, but that has been a wonderful side effect. I think people don't go into it necessarily thinking that. I think sex, probably, but it's the number one driver.

You've been doing this so long, it's hard to say exactly what it was that away. Do you think your marriage is better now for you having explored things side of your marriage? Oh my god. Yeah. You know. I wanted things that my spouse wasn't interested in, And I think that just the fact that I feel fulfilled and I'm not nagging my spouse for things that he's not interested or obligated to give me, I think that's good.

You know, I think if you scratch the service of a lot of marriages, you'd see that you don't want to shame your partner or hurt that. And it's hard to explain that it really isn't about them, but it really isn't. And I really think for women, especially when your kids are really little, everybody's on you all the time, and that's lovely, but I think it can be crazy making.

And I just found reserving the time that I spent in my affair it was very nurturing for me in that it really helped me recharge my batteries as a person, independent of my role as a mother or a wife, or way journer, you know, all these other halts that I wore. This was just for me. I often wonder,

and I know slur on therapy. Therapy is great, it truly helped people, But sometimes I wonder if some of the things that you want from a therapist, like somebody in a safe space who's going to listen to you, you can get a lot of that from an affair if you choose the right person, because that person is also not necessarily at all involved in your life, so they can be quite dispassionate when it comes to things

like that. And also often, like the girlfriends that I've had that have spent the longest in therapy, a lot of it was kind of esteem issues, and it's like, well, you know, having a lover can definitely give you a boost in that respect. I mean, I feel like I'm a pretty self confident person to begin with, but that doesn't hurt either. Plus, nothing like orgasm can make a

woman's serene. Women want to feel and need to feel like they're desirable and their bodies are like amazing and they're sexy, and so yeah, having somebody who gives you all of that, who gives you that feeling, it's addictive, it's intoxicating. That's doctor Gail Saltz. She's a psychiatrist, best selling author, columnist, podcast host, and TV commentator. Get this all of the things. I asked her if it was common for women to feel a loss of identity, like

Monique says, after marriage and kids. There are definitely joys and peaks of joy in having children, but it's stressful and it increases your responsibility exponentially in every sort of way. And the lion's share of that generally falls on women. So you know, you're happy, you met someone, you got married. It's wonderful, it's wonderful. And now what while at least seventy percent of everything housework, taking care of your life and his life or her life and children, it ends

up being you. A lot of women might say it's hard to be like I'm fulfilled while I'm chronically underslept doing some things that don't actually feel that glorified, like vacuuming, and then they are stuck in it, like they already established their pattern and it's really hard to back out of.

And how can having an affair change that for a woman, a woman who is suck in that chronic stress cycle, who has lost her sense of identity, Yeah, hugely, because you know, instead of thinking about vacuuming or having a baby hang off a boob while she mops, thinking of that image of herself, she's thinking about being like a goddess in bed, like he thinks I'm the hottest thing.

So women insects do a tremendous amount of self observation, and desire comes for women from a great amount of self observing imagining whoever is doing it to them, imagining themselves through that person's eyes. So if you're thinking like, I'm exhausted, I don't really feel like doing anything with

you my partner. Ps, I'm being touched all day by little kids, and so I'm really pretty touched out and it's the same old Samuel, and so it doesn't have that excitement for me having someone new who's just like, please, you got to find a way to be with me. So I'm exciting. I find you exciting. You see yourself through me. Now we're like kind of in a frenzy. It's secret, it's risky. That totally increases the excitement a

million percent. And so you might be mopping and having kids on your hip that you're thinking about this other thing and it's making things better. Stay with us because after the break, we're going to learn all about some of Monique's most opening sexual experiences. You're listening. She wants more. What are some of the best, most fun, most eye opening sexual experiences that you've had since she started doing this.

So one that was really kind of crazy, that very young person that I was telling him about was a scientist in engineering, so somebody who was deeply committed to optimizing the experience, very inventive in a kind of Tinkerer sort of way. So he loved like machines, so toys on some level, our machines, right. He also mcgi wrote a bunch of sex toys from stuff You bought at Staples. What Yeah, so like, what what can you what can

you buy a Staples? You can buy a lot of interesting clips for one, you know, and I'm just like, hmm, okay. He bought this like bendible ruler, but he kind of bent it into shape and it was like phenomenal. It was the craziest thing. So it's that kind of stuff like I would never go to Staples thinking, oh, what can I buy here that I can use as a sex toy? But this guy was that guy. He kind of thought about these things like they were puzzles, Like if I can make her come once, how do I

make her come like ten times? Like this increase the you know, like it's just a better delivery. And you know that was amazing somebody who's actually sitting there thinking about this. I love the optimization. Do you think your husband knows Yeah? Really, why do you think that just kind of oblique remarks? Use man the other things. I think he knows me very well. I mean that's why we've had such a good marriage for so long. And

I was always a very very sexual person. He's too smart to think that all of that is just suddenly sublimated when you get married, so I think that he has wisely decided as long as his needs are being met, you know, like my private life is my private life, and I think that that's actually a pretty healthy attitude. The question that nobody ever asks is, Okay, imagine this scenario if your wife had a lover, but at the same time that made her sexier, like she would buy

lingerie or try things that she never did before. However you define like an increase in hotness. Wouldn't she want that? I always wonder, because they do all those surveys, is like, you know, would you cheat if you knew for sure, like they could guarantee that your spouse would never find out? And how it? What's the percentage? It's like crazy high, right, Okay, So all of you, it's not that you're naturally monogamous, you're just cowardly. You do it if you knew you

couldn't get caught. But you don't do it because you have fear. Well, I don't know that being motivated by fear automatically equals virtue, but you know, if you are confident and sexually fulfilled, you are just a better, more grounded person in your day to day life. You know, if it puts a little spring in my step. I think those things have benefited not you know, my spouse, but also other people. You know, my kids for example. One of the things I did not want to be.

You know these people who start, you notice that their children's lives start filling in the gaps in their own life. Yeah, my kids sack your team, just this, my kid did this, My kid did that. Don't get me wrong, I'm in samely proud of my children. However, I do understand that

their achievements are not my achievements. And I'm looking at these some of these women going you drained to yourself like whatever interest that you have that you drained are And I was like, I'm not going to be that person. I have my own interests. I'm sure maybe people take up quilting. I don't know. You know what other people do that gets them in the zone, But this does it for me. I think the problem we have in society is there's still so much stigma around polyamory and

around consensual no monogamy. So many people are scared to open up their relationship or sport for fear of being stigmatized, or for fear of being negatively evaluated. That's doctor Ashley Thompson. Again. There is a substantial, a non ignorable number of people, but women in particular, who actually report positive outcomes from their experiences with infidelity or their experiences with secondary partners.

So I love sort of challenging this narrative, and one way to do that is to just increase the discourse. Let's talk about it. We shouldn't be afraid to be, you know, looking into these things and exploring these things. If it means that we can feel better about ourselves, right, if it means that we can be happier and more satisfied, why wouldn't be That's all for this week's episode. Next week's episode. It's a different kind of episode than the ones we've been making so far, and a very different

kind of affair than what you've heard so far. That's all next week, so tune in. She Wants More was inspired by the book A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was adapted for audio by executive producers Merrill Poster, Kara Peiffer, and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is hosted and reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead producer and story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich. Our theme was composed by

Anna Stumf and Hamilton Lighthouser. Our executive producers for iHeart are Ally Perry and Nikki Betore. She wants More as a production of iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.