Hello, my name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr
the Order, Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling of you to make a difference for today and lasting impact for tomorrow.
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She's on the Money, She's on the Money.
Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want to sort out their career. Today is a little bit of a different episode. I'm joined by Misress Gricci. Hello, but i also have the team from my millennial money or should I say more specifically, the sort your Career team out, Shelley Johnson and unfortunately Glenn.
Jack Yes, welcome Glenn, Hey, thanks for having us.
I'm so excited to have you, Shelley, Glenn, I'm flattered that you made the time.
I'm not the career expert. I'm just for you put your name on the book.
Well, how much as a percentage of the book, how much do you reckon you wrote of it?
Forty five?
Oh yeah, all right, Joe, did you let him put his name on forty five percent of your own work?
Well? Yes? And also there was this one night we were writing the book and Glenn was in there and I was in It would have been about eleven thirty at night, we're writing away. He's writing his section on mindset and I'm going through editing out.
His ye like live Google, backspace.
Your own chapters before you come and fix.
My Yes, I don't know about fixed completely rewrite.
Is it basically? So I'm just here for the hangs.
Well, Shelle is here to celebrate the launch, which is kind of recent but like it's been around a little while. Your book sought your career out, which I am so excited about. I'm also really devastated. I actually called Maddie on the way here and was like, Hey, I forgot my book? Can you find another one? She's like, I do not have time to go and get it. So I couldn't even get it signed because do you know who signed my book? Glenn. I don't want Glenn's signature
in my book. Now I've worked out that it was all your work. Shelley.
Well, you know what, I'll send you a coffee that just has my name on it.
I'll dispose of the other one appropriately. I love that. But we're here because our community is obsessed with career questions at the moment, and I feel like in this current environment, obviously careers are really hard. People are asking for pay rise, we're not getting them. We're feeling like our employer might be taking the mickey a little bit when it comes to work life balance. There are just
so many career questions that She's on. The money has kind of pivoted a little bit, and we are addressing a lot of them. But who better to get than you shall to talk about career and answer a whole heap of questions from our community. But first things first, why do we trust you when it comes to career advice? Like what if you've got a good career or something?
That is a really good question. I don't think anyone's answering that question before, So why do you trust me? I've got two answers to this. The first answer is I've worke in HR for the last ten years, so I've seen the employer's side, and I think for many people when we're talking about careers, we don't understand what employers are looking for or the things that can make us stand out for an employer in order to get a promotion, to get a pay rise, to maybe change careers.
So one of my things is taking all those secrets that are in HR and sharing them love. And the second thing that or may not make me credible is.
That he wrote a book. Well, I wrote a book that makes you legit. I wrote like three of them, and now people are like, wow, she's an author, and that's what I hang my hat on. And you absolutely should. No, it makes no sense, but yeah, come up with something better than the book.
Yeah, what was Well, I had a major career crisis. So I went through a career crisis. Right when Glenn called and said, hey, how are you? I was on the streets of Sydney. He calls me up, or I might have called you. I can't remember the context, but anyway, in Sydney he calls me and I said, hey, I've just quit my job. He's like, oh, right, what are you going to do now, and I'm.
Like, that's very Glenn. Oh right, that's nice.
Yeah, not much emphathiicy right now, Glenn. And I was like, I don't have anything planned, like I've got no other job to go to. But I just knew I wasn't in the stone space and I had to finish what I was doing and move out of that fairly quickly, and so I didn't have another job to go to. I was obviously quite stress It's a stressful position to be in. And Glenn go, you know what I reckon, we should.
Do go on the boat that and we should write a careers book.
And I was like, I can't write a career's book right now, like I'm unemployed.
Like you've got a heap of time to write about it.
Well, that's his logic. I was like, I can't, like I'm having my own career crisis. But I think what happened in that moment was, well, we got the book deal. Wiley came through and said let's do it, and we're like, okay, well, this is the right time to write it because you're going through the stuff that people need to hear about in their career.
Raw and it's real and if you're going.
Through a career crisis right now, maybe you've been made redundant, maybe you're having a tough time with toxic culture. Those things can be really painful. And for me, going through that process and then writing the book helped me to realize and have empathy for where people are at and how to get out of those moments and move forward and build a career that you love, which has been the case for me. And so I know that lots of people reading the book are having the same experience.
I love that. I feel like, for once in his life, Glen was correct and that was really good idea.
You are getting roasted.
That's why we're here.
They call me punchy because I'm a punching back.
Bring good jokes. What did you ring? I feel like I always end up in trouble if I roasted Glenn, So just yeah, I always do. I get so always like, oh, Victoria is so mean to Glenn. I'm like, do you realize that this banter that you're hearing it might be offline? And both ways? Like stop bullying me? How about you start coming for Glenn? And how nasty pasty he is to me? Sometimes I feel like this is our friendship showing I do actually adore Glenn. I think he is great.
We won't go too much into it because he already has a big enough ego.
Do you think it's like a brother sister relationship.
Dad mom and dad, mom and dad brother in front of the kids.
We definitely do.
We should answer some questions.
Yeah, let's answer some questions, because earlier this week, Jess jumped into our Facebook group and said, Hey, we've got some really exciting guests coming into the studio to talk all about Korea. So we're kind of like clickbaiting it because we really wanted this to go well. But what we got from that are some killer questions. Jess, what is the first question that you want Shell and maybe Glenn to address?
First?
One I have comes from Imagen and it says I hear a lot about looking at what your role in another company pays as a technique for pay negotiations. I've looked on seek and on LinkedIn, but most roles don't disclose the salary. Are there websites where I can find this kind of information?
Great question, jo said.
I replied to that, I was like, that's a really good question.
Yeah, let's cut and base that one as well.
Get it. So there's a few things you can do, and yes, there are ways that you can get that salary data. It's a really helpful thing to understand where your current pay is in relation to roles externally. So I think this is a good thing for most of us to get an understanding of. So Hayes have some great salary data across a range of industries that's public accessible, so you download.
About them all the time.
How good are they get?
They actually slid into my DMS the other week. Sorry, Hayes if you're listening to this, I haven't replied because I have ADHD and I forgot.
You know, Hayes would be great to sponsor the podcast right post all my millennial career.
All right, I'll slide back into their dms, so let them know. You guys are key.
I see one podcast and I raise you.
Three, so I would be getting access to that. The other thing you can do is jump on to a range of salary Survey does so Glassdoor pay Scale, and one of the things I encourage anyone to do is get a range of sources. So don't just go for
one salary data set. Get a couple, and then you get to kind of get a sense of what does the market look like, what might be the high end of the market rate, and what might be the middle point and the low point, And then you get a full sense of what the salary range is and you
can use that in your pay discussions. Now, there's a couple of things you need to consider when you're talking about pay with your employer, and one of them is, Okay, what's happening externally with the salary market, but what is my role and how does my role compare to those roles externally as well? Because it's not a cookie cutter exercise, No.
It's so important. Actually, I love what you said about getting a few examples because I'm the queen of one and done. Like I'll go online and I'll find one answer and I'll be like tick. And that could shoot me in the foot for two reasons. One, it could be severely undervaluing me, but it also could give me an unrealistic expectation of what that role pays. So I think that getting a few is really important and actually
puts you, I guess, back in the control seat. But like, for example, for your second part of that answer, you said, it's really important to understand the role. How many executive assistants are there. They all have different job responsibilities. Like some people might be an EA and it's much simpler. Some people might be an EA and it's an exec and you're managing a plothought of executives and it's so
hands on that it's crazy. So I think it's important to look into the job description and you really understand it. Because how many times do you go, oh, I own you know, eighty K, My friend who's an EA that's the same job title earns one fifty, what the hell like? And then you feel like you're being disadvantage and that you're not being valued when in reality, your role could be valued at exactly what you're getting paid.
The other thing to consider in that is what's the annual revenue of the business you're in, Because you might be an EA in a small business that's turning over ten million dollars a year and your salary might be you know, seventy five K. But if you're an EA in a five hundred million dollar organization, and it's much more complex because of the scale, because of the nature of the business, your salary might be at that higher end, and so there's a few different things we need to
weigh up. And that's why I love getting multiple data sources for this type of thing. The other thing that I love and I would always recommend people do when they're having pay negotiations, come in and say to your boss, So, Vitoria, let's say you're my.
Boss, I'd be a terrible boss for you, but yes.
I'm lucky for anybody.
Yeah, imagine I might be a terrible employee. So it goes both ways. So I would come in and say, hey, we'd love to talk to you about a pay increase. I'll give you one, thank you, one hundred grand increase.
Please, Okay, no worries. I feel awkward and want to get out of this situation, like.
Get me up.
So I would come in with a range and say i'd be considering between seventy and seventy five is the increase that I'm kind of looking for. If you're currently on sixty five, you want to move up to seventy. So give them a range to work with rather than a set number. But I think when we go in with a number in mind, it's quite fixed, and that means that employer feels kind of cornered into well, I only have this one figure to work with. But if you go in with a salary range, that can really
help them to feel like you're more open. If the business doesn't have the financial capacity to meet the higher end that you're after, well you can still get maybe that lower end. They're able to make that work.
Yeah, No, that's really good advice. So I feel like the range is something that a lot of people don't consider because you did all that research right, and I deep dived into what I wanted and how I wanted it. I am set on seventy five. But going with the range kind of puts you back in the control seats, saying my role is actually between this which one are you going to choose? And I think that that's power move shell.
Can you talk to positioning because you know, if I'm wearing an employer.
Hat, which you do because you employer so many employer for.
People, Yeah, it's a nice hat. I think it's just so important that you know. It's human nature. No one likes to get backed against the wall. We don't like showdowns or shakedowns or whatever. Talk to us about the approach. If image and did want to do some research and then chat with the employer, how does she position that in a non threatening you know, give me this or I'm going not none of that stuff, but like.
A amazing Well, you actually speak to this so well in the book because you talk.
About in his two percent contribution.
It's amazing. The part on pay negotiations is so solid. There's a couple of things. You need to give your boss lead time. So an employer has so many things going on in their head that they have budgets that are set sometimes a year in advance, so we need to consider it from their perspective. So, if Glenn, you're my boss, sorry again, I would be meeting with you in my regular one on one. Let's say we catch
up monthly for a regular one on one. I would say to you in that next one on one, Hey, Glenn, I've just been thinking about my role. I'd love to discuss my performance and maybe looking at a pay review. Could we schedule that in and our next one on one. So I'm giving you a long lead.
Time because I'm out.
And so that means that you then have a heads up of what I want to talk about and it's not just pay it's also your performance. Because if I'm just doing the bare minimum of my job, really I don't think I deserve a pay rise.
I are, And it's so awkward having that conversation with himployees who were like, well, i've been here for twelve months. How would you counter that from I guess the perspective we're she's on the money and we want to empower our community, who are mostly employees. What if I'm of that mindset, well, well, I've been with the business for twelve months, so I'm probably due a pay rise. How do we have that conversation kindly to say, well, actually, you really need to look at your performance.
Yeah.
I like to say, be careful what you wish for in like every circumstance of your life. But like I just imagine, like if someone wasn't self aware with their own role and they're like, oh, everyone else is getting a pay rise, I'm going to go and ask one. It could be like, well, I'm glad you've brought these up because you're not pulling away.
It's happened to me before I've had to say that to an employee. They no longer work for me, and This was a long time ago, so good luck pinpointing that one. But it was a really uncomfortable conversation because if you've ever employed people, it's kind of like sometimes you just don't say something about something because you're like, can't be bothered with that argument. Done is better than perfect. At this point in time, I have so many competing priorities.
I'm not interested in that conversation. They're getting it done. But when you do ask that question, Glenn and sit down and go, well, actually I want to pay rise, you kind of have to go, Okay, let's talk about
your performance, because unfortunately I can't grant you that. But also like, while we're here, let's actually have a really good conversation about what my expectations are because you opened I guess the box of tricks, and now we need to have that conversation because right now you're not meeting expectations and I have, you know, maybe been a little bit slack and letting it slide. But we need to be on the same page. And the fact that you're asking for a pay rise means to me that you
can't see that. And I thought that in your position you might be able to see that things weren't meeting expectation, and by you asking me, it's telling me you really don't. So I need to help you through this, and it's very uncomfortable. I think that is such a good point.
Both of your raised this idea of if you want to pay rise, really you need to be exceeding the expectations of your role. So you're being paid for a role that's got a dollar figure signed to it based on the value that that role delivers. And so if you want to achieve let's say you're after a ten k pay rise, we would need to be able to show how are you delivering over that ten k in
value to the business. If you can demonstrate that, it's a no brainer for the business because they're like, it costs me to go and rehire you if you were to leave. I want to keep my good people. So yeah, cool, let's have that conversation. But we need to be able to demonstrate not just what the external salary kind of market is doing. We need to demonstrate how am I delivering value in this business so that your business case is strong and it's a no brainer for the employer.
But to Glenn's point, if you come in and Hey, three months ago, you've got a written warning, probably not a good time to ask for a pay rise.
Right read the room.
I think it does kind of, And you know, we could probably move on because there's a good question here from Live about CVS and image, and we will send you a copy of the book Sort your Money Out.
That's Glenn's marketing strategy. Everybody who gets their question answered on the show today, we're going to send you one of Glenn's books because apparently okay, but you're trying to own.
This, I'm just giving away books.
Anyone who wants to learn about pay needs to read your chapter.
But all I was going to say is like the question about because we said all the time people ask like I'm in an award role or I'm in a pay band with the government.
The question is it like it may transition to a career question, not a job question, because there could be roles where the employer or the company just can't pay extra for that position and now it's just a.
You've outgrown them career.
Yeah.
I was literally about to say the same thing, Jess. And it's not a bad thing for you to outgrow a role. Sometimes you've got everything out of that role and you've reached the top and there's.
Lead with grace and yeah, it's all awesome.
Yeah, but that makes me uncomfortable, So I don't really want to do that. And the easier thing is to ask for a pay rise and then be a bit salty that I'm not getting it. And sometimes the cold hard truth of well, actually, for you to get that pay rise, you actually need to leave is the reality. And it sucks because sometimes you love the culture and you love the business and it makes so much sense and it aligns to your goals, but it's not serving you in the way that you're telling me it needs to.
So sometimes you do have to move on speaking.
Which moving on that great question that lives sent through says, would it be great to know more tips and tricks on how to make your application look good enough to
get interviews. I've discovered, particularly as you try to move up in your career, application cevs and cover letters are often laid out differently or presented differently, and I feel like I fall shot on paper And I'm so curious to hear your answer, because I've heard very conflicting opinions on whether or not the visual of those things matters.
I would just send them a picture of your cat, and that's very like the spot.
Yeah, that's very like to work.
In fact, ask Annalisa what we spoke about in her first interview. It was her cat and I was like, wow, you are my people come this way? Would you like the job of producer hied it? I mean, we also like to CV and she's actually incredibly talented. But that's not the point, is it.
Well, that's the values alignment. Oh yes, So a couple of things visually. Let's talk about that first, because that's what you're interesting. Yeah. So I think there's a couple of great designs on like Etsy that are simple, that are visually beautiful, and I think you can get them.
They're like really cheap, they're like a couple of bucks usually.
Yeah, And I personally think you should find something that reflects your personality. So if you want to show up with a bit of personality, that's to me really good. There is some things visually that the recruiter or the hiring manager or HR person want to see. It needs to be simple, so simple enough to read through quickly. Because if you imagine a recruiter or HR are looking at this for possibly one minute. They're doing the super
quick scan and they're trying to shortlist. So your goal is get yourself onto the yes or the maybe pile. So keep your CV and your cover letter clear and concise. This is the biggest part. I read an application the other day of someone who had eight pages.
Oh my gosh, as I please.
No, no, no, no, I'm.
Not going to go through that. But that also tells me that you don't know how to clarify information and really, I guess summarize it down, which to me is a very important skill totally.
So we want it to be really clear, concise, and specific to that employer. And that's the big one. I don't like the copy paste applications. I like when people have done it where they've tailored it to the actual business. So their cover letters should be tailored to the business. Talk about the business values in your cover letter. If you google them, you look on their website and it says one of their values is integrity. Talk about that, talk about how you align with that, and that can
really make you stand out from everyone else. I also think you should show a little bit of personality. That's just my preference. I like that people come in and talk about what makes them stand out.
I feel like I look as an employer for a few different things, but it's not really what I'm looking for, right, It's what I'm seeing and going absolutely no. Like if in the job description I've said address the cover letter too, I would expect that to be followed. And if you haven't followed it and you've just put a to whom it may concern, I'm like, cool, So you don't have
good attention to detail. If I've asked you to attach a cover letter and a resume and you only attach your resume and don't bother with a cover letter, I'm like, cool, you don't have good attention to detail and you haven't followed the process that I've asked you to follow. To me, those are really quick ways for me to just like wipe your resume off the table because you haven't listened and I need someone who follows attention to detail. If you're listening to this podcast as well, shall I do
something real cheeky in my life? You're gonna give it away, I'll do it because if you've listened this far, then I feel like you deserve to know. Sorry, So in my job descriptions. If I'm like advertising on LinkedIn, and you can go find this literally right now, because I am advertising at the moment for a few roles. Halfway through, it will explain in the about you section, it'll be like, you have a high attention to detail this that the other.
Then it will say you understand that to apply for this job, you have to use the email that's at the bottom of this advertisement and address it to Victoria and send an email directly, including a cover letter and this and that and whatever I'm asking for. Like recently, I've been hiring a copywriter, so I asked for a cover letter, a resume, and a portfolio of work, and then at the bottom I put my email. If you apply directly on LinkedIn, I don't even look at it
because you did not follow the directions. And I mean, that's I guess, a very entitled way to recruit. But Glenn will be the same when we recruit. Because we're in media and because we are I guess so visible, we do get a high volume of applicants. And to me, that's a really easy way to go. I've already cut it in half, and I feel like that's real cheeky and I shouldn't have admitted that, But I love that.
I love that. I think a lot of organizations who get a high volume of applications have a couple of little hoops that they want you to jump through and show that you've done and it's exactly what you said, Hi, Victoria. I don't like when people are like, dear hiring manager. I'm just like, that's a cut and copy cover letter.
Don't like it, Yeah, unless there's absolutely no information provided, in which case it would be appropriate to do that. Like, I just think if you know that you're applying to my millennial money to work with Glenn and shall you know their names?
You know the trick wire like I call them the truth wires.
You've got them to I've never had an original experience.
I thought you must have good England skills.
No cover letter. I don't even open. I don't actually care. And then if people mention I've got good England, it's like, yeah, you.
Get me, you are my people.
I did it in my copywriting job. I put an error on purpose and then a few people mentioned it. I was like, ah, because they're like I also have really good attention to detail. I don't know if it was you trying to trip us up or you're trying to make us show that we have a good attention to detail. But you spelt this wrong and I was like, hey, so smart that. Otherwise all the people that skipped that just thought I was really dumb. And that's okay. You
think whatever you think, Glenn. What's another absolutely no go that comes up in a resume for you?
Just high level like and I think it's knowing the organization that you're applying to, like I've only hired like my last round of hiring, I think there was forty five applications. I sat down with three people, and I sat down with them based off the cover letter only Yep. Agreed, I'm hiring a person, not a position. I love that and that's kind of the That's why we got to
know your audience. And if it's the government and bureaucracy, sure it's probably going to be templated and you know different. But if it's small business. The ones who said dear hiring manager, it was that instant, Well, they don't listen to the show. I really want someone who gets what we do.
The research part of it is really important. Do your research, get on their socials, get on their website, read their annual report, do as much research as you can. That's
how you stand out. Add all that stuff into the cover letter and me like, look at me, I know your business because if you use their language, even how they speak, so you use quite colloquial language, I'd be mirroring that in my cover letter because then for you, Glenn, as the employer, you're looking at that going I feel like they know me.
Oh.
I could not agree with that more.
And it's a bit weird to read because it's like, oh, they really know me and I don't know them.
But it's exactly what you're looking for, right And with this copywriting role, I found the same to be absolutely true because I'm hiring someone that can be fun and a little bit like us, and like I'm hiring for tona voice and the idea that I'm even asked. Yes, she's been asking for this copywriter role for more than twelve months. I haven't let go yet of doing it all myself because I'm like, how will it sound like me? How will it sound like she's on the money if
it's not me? And so this idea that people can show me that at the very start, I was like very drawn to a few people just because of that.
Yeah, one other tip, don't be afraid to go a little bit further, Like it could be a little video like Hi, you know, I just wanted to say this is who I am, Like, it's not going to be appropriate.
Job.
That's what I did.
Yeah, it's doing that thing.
You've just got to do what other people don't do one hundred percent, but to your comfort level.
Like some people aren't like that, and I would. You're like Jess also.
A fully edited, fully curated, and choreographed YouTube.
Video, not a dance. I thought you're gonna say choreograph dance and I was like, I didn't.
Do that, No, no she didn't. But it was properly edited and like I had a cover tile and literally every photoshop. But if you're not comfortable with that, absolutely don't do that, because that'll just show that you're not comfortable.
But shell, if we go to the other side of the coin, and it is a role that is heavily corporate or government, we really want to get to the point with experience and actually ideally we're looking for xyzed just bam bam, bam, because you just want to get in the door.
You've got to curate your experience. Because you only have two pages on your resume. Do not go over two pages. Keep it short and sharp, and curate your experience to what's relevant to that role. So you don't need to put everything in there, but make sure you're hitting on the core requirements that are expressed in that job.
At Live will send you a book and in the book things a QR code with templates, cover.
Letter, and resume.
That's cool.
Before we go to a really quick break, I have one more question that I really want to get everybody to weigh in on, because there's been a lot of discourse recently in the community of that word it do you. Oh yeah, very fun. Victoria ruffled some feathers. So this question comes from Melissa. She said, when in an industry where pay can't be negotiated, let's say, for example, teaching, how can we make ourselves seem a step above others
when looking for opportunities. I feel like these fields can seem quite limiting in regard to salary progression without having to increase qualifications. And this came off the back I think of the comment that VD made recently around pay rises and inflation and how if you're not getting a pay rise you're on the back foot.
Which how are we talking about that today?
We let Victoria blowing the Internet up and making them angry. I was saying to Jess, like, I know I did something because my dms are so nasty.
Wow, it made some people angry, And I think there was a real sentiment I think from people who work in careers where they have maybe EBAs in place and things of that nature, where they're like, I don't even really get to negotiate. So I feel like Alissa's question is really relevant because there is a whole chunk of people who maybe aren't in a position like someone like me where you can go, oh, I feel like things
are changing. Let's have a conversation about it. So what would you recommend for those kind of people?
So you really need to think about your long term career. If you're a teacher or you're in nursing and you have a fixed level of increase, and once you get to the top of that after four years you maxed out, You've got to think, how can I increase my pay if that's what you want to do now, not everyone wants.
To do that.
But let's say your goal is to increase your pay. It's what Glenn said before. You need to find a way of changing your career or maybe you look for a management role. So in teaching, you might look for an assistant principal role, like what do I need to get to an assistant principal level? And you plan that out, and you might need to plan it out five years ahead to try and go, well, what are the skills that assistant principles have, what are the things that differentiate them?
And therefore, what can I do now in the lead up to that to position myself to stand out. The other thing I'd say for anyone who's in this spot is.
Talk to people who are.
Further along and they're in the position that you want, or they're getting the equivalent pay that you want in your industry, and get their advice on what they did in their career that you can mirror. Because often we feel stuck when we're in that enterprise bargaining agreement kind of world where we've got this really fixed, rigid way of getting pay increases. But there are ways around it. And we interviewed for the book someone who is in
nursing who told us about they went back. They did go back and study, they got their master's degree and then they ended up as a transition from a nurse to a nurse unit manager and they got quite a significant pay rise that came with their new expectations of the role. So that's some of the ways around it. And I mean, Glenn, what's your take, because you've got a really good perspective on this.
Yeah.
I actually interviewed somebody who was a nurse and they actually did i think four days a week permanent and then one day a week as a casual in the pool. So by just being a little bit creative, they increase their salary.
And you know, it's also nuanced.
But I think it all comes down to, yeah, it's a career discussion, not a job discussion. And then secondly, depending on your life stages, if you love what you're doing, you know, I'll be really radical here because I heard about this example the other day. I know someone moving to Melbourne and they're going to be working four days
a week with the government. It's the same paysation and it's with the Victorian government four days a week and it's the same salary as New Southwest Government five days a.
Week in Melbourne did come back up.
We got there and Melbourne rent and house prices a little bit more affordable than Sydney.
Sydney's insane.
So look that's a drastic measure as well.
You might bring Location is a big I mean, I'm not going to pick up and leave my friends and family, but other people might be up for an experience with their career. Doesn't have to be forever. You might have to transfer to Upskill. All I would say is your career is not linear. Is that what you say?
I say one of us, I don't know you. She added that talk about yeah, we don't.
We've kind of got the idea of just blow up the career ladder. One of the guys on our podcast, Moment and your Career, Ben Carl's, he said, the career ladder is dead. It's a career jungle gym.
Fun.
Yeah, how just has been treating it?
Yeah, totally like go across, fall off the jungle gym, like get back off the shell out.
This podcast is over, just like the Alright, I have so many more questions for you guys, and we'll get to them right after this break all right, well you're back, and I feel like, Glenn, the one thing that we were missing on the flip side there was your advice that says, at the end of the day, if you don't like the pay, you can move careers. And I mean it's very dramatic advice to be like, well, if you don't like it, leave and that feels really rude.
But at the same time, it's kind of like if you're signing up and I don't mean this in an awful way, and I think the teachers and nurses and everybody in those I guess provider type roles should be paid more. This is not the conversation for that right now. But if you're in a position where as you're saying before, Shelle, it's an eba role, you know what you're getting yourself into when you sign up to do that career and then you're deeply unhappy about it. Maybe that's not the
career for you. Maybe we need to pivot it, Maybe we need to shake it on its head and go all right, well, maybe a full time tutoring role where you control what you charge and you control the narrative is going to work better for you. Maybe working in a different sector might work, and I know that that's not I guess the advice that a lot of people want from us because often what they want from us is the answer that they can go to their employer and be like, actually, you do have to pay me
more for what I'm currently doing. Sadly that's not always the case though, right.
I would say, just on that comment, like with all the financial principles that you teach, you know, if you keep out of consumer debt, have an emergency fund, you know, run a lean budget, do the best you can with what you've got. That gives you more options to change if you don't like it in the medium or to the long term.
Really, and also think a little bit differently.
I interview to another lady on the show the other day, and this was awesome. She was in HR, like literally managing people in HR. She moved to the IT industry and is in HR software now so and she picked up fifty or sixty grand work from home like Flexible, Loving Life, and I'm just like, Yeah, this is what it's all about. And I just think, particularly you know, chapter one, Shell spends so much time on working your values, like what do you value? Because I like to say
that it's two edged sword. You know, it's all rainbows and unicorns over here, and that's awesome. We want that. But on the other side, all the money in the world isn't going to keep you were a toxic workplace. Yeah, So it's not always about the money, but it comes to a point where it is. So I think it's just having, you know, good financial foundations behind you and if you're not right there now, hang in there and
go okay. Over the next twelve months, I'm working on my emergency fund, I'm paying down debt because I'm going to make a career pivot.
I think that's so important. It actually leads into a question from Dione, who's obviously going to get one of Glenn's books as well, and she asks, are there career counselors for adults? How do you find them? How much should you be paying, and what can we expect from them. I think that's such a good question to answer here because it kind of goes you know, Glenn, you were talking about pivoting, but how do we do that if we don't know what we're looking at it? We're overwhelmed
and like care's counselor at school. That was really cool. Is that a thing for adults? Shell, please?
It's so funny we had them at school because when we're at seventeen years old, we have no idea what we want to do. No, you know, we definitely need career counselors and career coaches later in life. There absolutely are. There's a lot on LinkedIn, so I'd encourage you to jump on LinkedIn search up career coach. You'll find a stack of people who do it. There's also I believe is it Badass Careers. She's in New Zealand, she does
some cool stuff. There's some people out there doing some good work in this space, So jump on LinkedIn search career coach and you'll find good people. Pretty sure. It costs like around three point fiftyer session on average, that's my guess.
Yeah, that's pretty reasonable.
I think to give you enough clarity to kind of go forward and do what you've got to do with your career and figure out where you're going. It's obviously not a small sum of money, but if you look at it as an investment in yourself and in your future, like maybe that's worth it for you.
Well, if that career coach gets you a five grand pay rise.
Super worth the money well spent.
All right, I'm going to be a little bit selfish and ask some employee centric question. Thats going to steal the mic for a second, if that's okay. I want to start with a question from Zoe, and she said, my boss said to me recently, people get more work opportunities when you're in the office more, not so much when you work remotely.
Thoughts on that comment, Oh, this is a banger.
I feel like there's a lot of discourse again out there right now on this, and it does sometimes feel like employeers tend to lean one way and employees tend to lean the other.
So I'm will guess what's your vibe.
I think I'm a champion for flexible work. I always have been. I've worked in roles with literally zero flexibility, and I said post COVID never again, like if a role doesn't off me flexibility in the future, and I'm very thankful that right now mine does. But if a role didn't off me flexibility, I actually wouldn't take it at this point in my career. I don't think that
it should be a reflection. I think that if you're working hard and doing what you need to do, if you're not pulling your weight, as you were saying earlier, Glenn, surely that's showing up like things aren't getting done, or things are being missed to deadlines aren't being met, like someone's seeing that you're not doing what you need to do even when you're not sitting.
At a desk.
But I do also think that there is that age old thing of sometimes the people who progress fastest or highest in a company or an industry are ones who are not doing so necessarily because.
They're the best at their job. It's because they have built relationships with people. It's because they're a networker or a connector.
They're providing values or vibes, if you will, in other ways. And so if you are working remotely, it's much harder for you to do that. But it's harp because they don't think that that necessarily should be the case.
You know, you're so spot on two big things. Visibility matters, So your visibility in the organization matters, and that's why I think there's quite a lot of bias towards people working in the office. So leaders, it probably makes their job easier in some ways. And it's this whole thing of if I see you, you must be performing total crap, right, But there's an assumption around that of if you're there,
you must be working hard. And I think that's why there's this bias and tendency towards let's get everyone back into the office, because we're all here, we all must be working. Yeah, And the thing I think we need to talk about more is, well, how do we be visible when we're remote working? How do I get proximity to the boss who's making decisions about promotions when I'm working remotely? So we need to be active on zoom, Like, if you're working remotely, turn your camera on.
Don't be that person who never turns it on.
So show up now. I know there's reasons sometimes maybe people don't turn the cameras on, and that's fine, But what I want you to do is how do I become more visible here? How do I stand out? And yes, going into the office kind of helps you do that. I'm a big, big believer in full time remote work, like I work remotely full time or for it, but I understand why leaders want people to come back into
the office. So there's two sides to that coin. I guess my main thing is how do you, to your point, Jess, build relationships, build equity in that business socially build those networks because they're the things that are going to help you when that promotion opportunity comes up. You want to be front of mind for the decision maker. And the way that you do that is you've been visible, You've demonstrated your credibility, and those things together mean that you land the job.
I think as well, the craft or the trade or the occupation that you do that needs to take care of itself, Like that's the hygiene factor. You're really good at your job. Yeah, and that whole front of mind thing. If it is a remote team, the front of mind stuff will probably more be happening on the social side, like, hey, we all work remote here. I reckon at least once every two weeks. We just come into the city. Whoever can have a coffee. I think the being noticing it
doesn't have to be work noticed, it can be social. Yeah, because the hygiene factory is that you've good at your job.
Yeah, I agree, Like it should just be a given. How do you manage it? Because your team is pretty much entirely remote and obviously you're on the employer side, like, yeah.
So I've made the call that at least twice a year we come together.
I love that.
Every Thursday afternoon, because we do a four day work week, we do our afternoon chat. We call it two good Things and everyone goes around and says, what are two good things that have happened this week that are in line with one of our values and why so we do that and then yeah, we do a mid year together and then a Christmas party together. Yeah, increact because it is expensive to fly everyone into gather.
They're around the country and not all in the same state where you can kind of all get on a train or get in a car.
It definitely would be But I honestly don't think sometimes the fact that you're a remote worker, like the boss that said that to the questioner, you can be present and be a remote team and get those opportunities.
Yeah, I like that, changing the old school mindset. Next, I've got one from Melanie who said, when should I move on from a job when I'm not learning more, when I can't get any more pay rises, et cetera.
Yeah, that's a great question. I've been thinking heaps lately, Jess about this idea of grit or quit, Like when do you like stick it out and show some grit and stay with an employer and when do you quit? Because it's a really hard thing to know. So there's a couple of signs that you need to stick it out and show some grit. The first thing would be
if you haven't quite mastered the role. So if you haven't developed that sense of mastery in the role, I think there's more room for you to learn and grow. So do that sense check of how have I developed here? How have I grown? And the second thing would be
do you enjoy it? Do you like the job? Because if you like the job, when you like the people you work with, and you're thinking maybe I need to make a career ladder move, well I challenge you on that because sometimes the whole thing with the career ladder makes us feel like we need to be climbing when really we're happy where we are, but there's this artificial pressure externally that makes us feel like we have to be getting the next promotion, learning the next pay rise.
When if you enjoy the place that you work out, if you enjoy the people that you work with, if you've got a good To me, they're all massive ticks, and I would be really thinking whether you know you should be leaving if those are the things you've got.
Now.
On the flip side, when should you quit a job. There's a few signs. Number one, you've stopped growing. So if you've stopped growing, you're not learning. Those are signs that it might be time to move on or find a different job. The other sign is if you're not getting considered for opportunities. So let's say you're putting your hand up for promotions maybe internally, and you keep getting knocked back. That's a signal that maybe there isn't that room for you to progress there and in which case
maybe a move externally is right. The other thing would be if it's a toxic culture. So signs of a toxic culture would be things like gaslighting, gossip, really a lot of ego deceptive behaviors. Any of those signs, those to me are things where you need to be waving the big red flag and going okay, if management don't want to hear the feedback on the culture, probably some signs that you need to move on.
But Actually it's really nicely into the next question, which was from Analyse, which said, how do I navigate being overlooked as a young female. I'm often infantilized, underestimated, and uncredited and it's frustrating.
That speaks to me about culture.
Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
Yeah, because that's ridiculous. I mean, just on that last question, then Shell can answer an Lisa's question. I really think it's important. Like another one is like you're bored. Like I'm being bored lately. It's rotten. I'm doing other things to, you know, stimulate myself. But I think it's so important to run to something, not from something.
I like that a lot.
So really, you know, dig into the values. You know, chapter one of the book all about values. Go back to your bedrock.
What do I value?
They might not be in the place that could be making you not fit because you know, I'm an introvert and they want me to dance on the desk every day.
Make sure you're just running to something, not from something.
Yeah, that is such good advice. I agree you should writ a book about that. So to an Lisa's question, yeah, you're right. Glenn speaks to culture sometimes I was talking to someone the other day. They work in construction industry, young female, and they had had some challenges I guess with this similar dynamic of not feeling heard in a very male dominated industry and feeling like there's a bit
of condescension. And one of my I guess recommendations was sometimes we need to be quite overt in challenging behaviors that I think are not.
Okay, call it out, sis, call it out.
So I would be specific and go, hey, when you said that that made me feel like my opinion wasn't valued. Or the other day in that meeting, I noticed that you interrupted me, and I feel like my ideas aren't heard here. Can we talk about that? Yeah, because we need to challenge the behavior and often people haven't received
that feedback. And I would encourage this person. If you're feeling condescended or like your opinion isn't valid because of your age, your voice matters and we want to hear you. And actually, organizations need to hear from their gen Z employees. They need to hear from these younger voices who have great perspective, who have fresh ideas and new insights. They need that and they're missing out by not hearing your perspective.
Think we need to look at how do we present ideas in a way that sets them up to be received. So maybe watch in your organization for those social cues in meetings and see whose ideas get heard the most and why, and understand what are some of the dynamics
that are going on. Just observe and see what that tells you about the culture, because that can give you insights into Okay, is it the way that I'm presenting the idea or is it simply that these people aren't going to hear me, in which case probably don't want to stay their long term.
And I would say to all the you know, business owners that are listening, because you've got a lot of people that we do own businesses and employee people. A lot of the times, people who run businesses, we're just steamrollers by nature, right. And what I did was, you know, got Shell into facilitate a session with my team. And I was just one of the team.
So I shut my trap, and you did.
One of our employees. You know, they're meet quiet, and you know that person got to say some really gold stuff that might not have come out if Michael.
Scott or they like, it can be intimidating.
As an employee, it can definitely be intimidating raising things. Now, culture is no matter how supportive somebody.
But if you've got a something and Shell can probably speak so. But like.
You've got to slowly practice in your career to not one put up with crap and that takes a bit of.
Time and courage and courage.
And you know, the question I would say, if it is appropriate, can you talk with your boss even if it's over a coffee or go for a walk, so it's on mutual territory and go, hey, I got to ask you something really awkward, like is it just me? I don't know, Like we're not saying I don't know, I just communication and Shell, We've got.
A really good episode that I point you to or my millennial career. It's having tough conversations with your boss. And so it's how do we do those conversations well upwards because they're challenging and we feel nervous to bring feedback. But again I'll say, your voice matters and we actually leaders need to hear this truth.
So and the truth is, you know that questioner could work for some misogynists. Who doesn't you her and she needs to get out of there yesterday? Yeah, well that's also.
It is absolutely a chance.
And if you are a business owner and you do want to get someone out, Shallie's fantastic and very welcoming. So we'll have the link in the show notes so you can check out and reach out if that's maybe something you want to facilitate, like Glendid with his team. Before we head off, the last question I have, I think is going to kind of tie everything off in a.
Nice little bow.
It comes from Jasmine and she wants to know how have you, guys fostered positive team environments that motivate people to get the job done, want to turn up and want to contribute to the good team culture and have a little bit of fun. Do you do quizzes or trivia.
In the mornings?
Toolbox meetings, gratitude walls, What helps to make your team feel special and wonded?
Okay, couple of things, and these are so basic that far out people don't do this. Number one give positive feedback. Yeah, for sure, you know what I keep thinking. Positive feedback is one of the most powerful forces. I can be quite cynical by nature. So I've had to learn this as a skill I reckon. In my early days of being a leader, I was the worst of this, Like I'd always be about what are all the things you
need to fix? But really one of the things I've learned is we need to understand each other's strengths and we need to call them out and praise people for the good things that they've done. Ping pong tables don't care, beanbags don't give.
A shit, but it's a cool startup.
Honestly, no amount of pizza parties is going to fix the toxic culture. What will have a huge impact is if you find the strengths of your employees, you call them out, you encourage them on it. You call out your team's strengths. And the other thing that I would encourage you to do is have regular one on one catch ups. Regular one on one catch ups are one of my all time favorite things. That could just be fifteen minutes. Get to know people personally on your team.
Don't think of it as a transactional relationship. The more relational equity you've invested into that role, the stronger the culture, the stronger the dynamic, the more you feel seen more they'll feel seen. The best thing ever.
Yeah, if you feel like you know the people around you, you're more likely to like them and get on with them and relate with them better.
It can be hard.
Like I'm quite introverted, and I've worked in big office teams and spaces before, which I did not love. But I remember whenever you had someone that you both went for the same football team, or you both had the same hobby, or watch the same TV show and it's just something that had come up in an incidental conversation or it had to come up in a one on on with a manager, and then when you saw them during the week, be.
Like, oh, just catch a new episode, like what did you think? Like I'm dying.
It makes it feel like a little bit more than just I'm an employee and you're my boss, Like it gives you something that makes you feel connected.
I guess the connection that's the point.
Yeah, And I think Jasmine, she may be a team leader. I would say a couple of things bring the team on the journey. Yeah, like, hey, we want to make this a little bit more engaging. Let's have a catch up and let's all just put some ideas on what we can do, and everyone we can write them down anonymously one or two things will put them in a box or whatever, Like if everyone's like extrovert and party time awesome, just do all that. But I think it
is just understanding your team getting that buy in. I know on my team there's someone who you could not praise that person enough publicly where someone else might.
Yeah, I just think take your team with you.
It's a relationship. Like even if you are an employee and yes, your job and yes it's paying the bills. Like ultimately, if you can feel like you enjoy what you do and if you feel like you have buying or you believe in what you're doing, I think that makes the experience more enjoyable for everybody.
And I would just say to anyone that's still listening, like, we spend so much time at work and in our career and our job. If it's not ideal right now today, you might not be able to change your job, your career, your life tomorrow, but please take one step. And that could be just thinking, well, in three years time, would I be happy that I didn't put up with this crap and I started to look elsewhere? Or what advice
would you give your best friend about your situation. Just let's start just thinking, because you know, all the financial stuff. It is tired, It is tired out there. Yeah, just always look back from a couple of years. So we're not having regrets and we're not you know, Oh, I's been it two years too long and I'm sick of this.
Yeah.
There's that Daniel Pink quote that we talk about in the book, and it's such a nice way to round out this conversation. And it's the biggest regrets in life of the failues of boldness. So if you're thinking right now, I should make a change, I should make a change. And that's been something on your mind for ages. The biggest regrets aren't the things that we did do, the biggest regrets of the things we didn't do.
Wow, guys, it has been an absolute pleasure. Shelle, thanks for joining us, Glenn, thanks for coming along.
Thank you.
Honestly, I could talk about career stuff all day, but as I always say, unfortunately that is all we have time for today. Please come back, Please come and hang out on our show again. I feel like career content is so important for our community to grow and learn and be better I guess in life, but also just in their careers, like you deserve to have a happy career.
You deserve to not be stressed about things and not you know, lose sleep at night when you're stressed about having a conversation with your manager that you definitely shouldn't lose sleepover. So I think it's one so important. But Shelle, let's do a little shameless plug. You wrote arguably an entire book where I'm going to put my affiliate link to your book in my show notes so that I'm benefiting from this. So if anybody wants me the benefit
of Shell and Glenn's book, that's how. But where can we find it? Where can we find more of you?
So you can find the books or your career out wherever you get good books from. And you can find me on LinkedIn or go to our podcast, my Millennial Career and Instagram use yep bold side.
I love following you guys, It's really helpful.
You have the best shares. Thank you, thank you.
We'll see you guys on Friday, but we'll see Glenn and Shell hopefully very soon. Bye bye. The advice shared on She's on the Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs.
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