Having Difficult Conversations With Your Boss

can we reassess this or change this? And we don't want to lean too much into gender here, but everyone knows women are far less likely to put their hand up when it comes to getting a promotion or having things out allocated at work in a bit more of a fairer way. So I think today's episode for me is more about empowering you guys to actually just ask the question, because at the end of the day, the worst thing they can say is no, one hundred percent.

and then we just snuggy, snuggy. That's gorgeous. Jess, she brought this into the and then I've bought one and now I'm going to have to buy another one because Jasmine has stolen mine, and then Charlotte was envs and then you're going to need one, and then Jess is probably going to need one, and then Analysa is probably gonna want one. And I just feel like it's a good investment. You can have like a little snug blanket. You can have a heating pad if you're cold, pop

it on your chair, also heating pad. You could put your feet on it.

and every single year. But if we break down the job market, say your job is to lick stamps g and put them on an envelope, and that's just the entire job that you have in one year. If you've performed that job, and that job is worth you know, maybe eighty thousand dollars, that's a very well paying stamp licking job, so you know, but let's say it's worth

eighty thousand dollars. Why if the crux of the job and the requirements of the job, if they haven't changed, why should your pay be increased by like five or ten thousand dollars each year just because you're good at

licking stamps. I think that there should be some level of responsibility back on the employee to have either taken on further responsibilities or to be looking for another role if they feel like the role that they currently have doesn't remunerate them in line with the remuneration they want to find. I'm pretty cutthroat when it comes to that, because I think the entitlement is a really big piece of it. But then if we look at it and go,

all right, so g you lick stamps. But then because you are really good at that and so efficient that you've been given all of these other responsibilities. You now do all of the stapling, all of the file work. You're now the receptionist as well. We've put a whole heap of responsibilities on you. That's a different story. That's

not about tenure. That's about increased responsibility, and that's about you being remunerated in line with your increased responsibilities, not just going, oh, well, you know, your job description is the same. Job description doesn't mean anything if day to day you are doing something wildly different. So I'm pretty I guess you could say I'm triggered right now because I just think that too many times people are like, oh, I don't understand why I haven't got a pay rise

in like four years. I've been there for ages, and you go, I don't want to be mean, but what do you do in your job that is so wildly different to the job you accepted four years ago? It is up to you to upskill and increase your your capability or your ability to perform in that role so you can take on more responsibilities or change jobs if you don't think that's right, and if you go, all right, well I still want this job. I do think it's about kind of going all right, well, this job pays

eighty thousand dollars? Am I okay with that? Yes? Because that's what that role remunerates you for. Does that make sense? Like I feel like obviously everyone's going to be quite heated on this topic, and other people will say things like, oh my gosh, no, I deserve more because I've been there, And there's lots of different semantics that come into this conversation. But I think at the crux, you need to understand that when we start talking about what is my worth

in a role? Back to your actual question, Georgia King, if we're talking about where to look. Obviously online is the best resource that we can find. I have absolutely no connection to Hayes, but the Hayes Salary Guide has been something that for maybe the last ten years I have relied upon and gone back to to have a look at to see what on average people are being paid for this role and maybe what I should be asking. It's also a really well researched document. Thousands of people

contribute to this every single year. And it doesn't just say okay, for someone in accounting, they should get X. It actually breaks it down by state, and then it breaks it down further into metro and regional, which I think is really powerful because obviously everything everywhere is different, and regionally you're not going to be remunerated as highly as metro because living costs a higher and there's lots of things that play into this, right, So the Hayes

Salary Guide is something I look to quite often when it comes to, you know, benchmarking. The other is looking at job ads online. So go to seek dot com, dot a you and have a look at the job ads that are going ask people. You know I'm not saying go and talk to a million recruiters. But you know, if a recruiter approaches you, what's the role worth? Actually, what's my role worth? Even if you're not interested in moving. But I also would be really wary of self reporting

platforms like Glassdoor. You know, how you go online and you go what does an advertising executive get paid? Glassdoor will come up. Yeah. I think you need to be really careful of them, because when do people self report Georgia when they're angry? Yeah, exactly. So I want actual research and I don't just want something anecdotal that, you know, an angry employee of some company down the road wrote because they were frustrated at their job or didn't get

paid enough or had a bad experience. I just think that that's a very it's very slippery slope of comparison.

That's true. Learn to negotiate, my friends.

hundred grand a year. Obviously, assuming that you're treated identically from then on, with the same salary rises and the same promotions, you're going to have to work eight years longer g than your fellow employee to be as wealthy as them at retirement. It's like, do you remember that old ad for super where they were on the escalators.

you under a bus here. You have personally negotiated your salary with me before, and I have so much respect for it, and I would hope that you know the conversation was met that way. Obviously, we do do salary increases, but I always say to my team, please come to me to negotiate your salary because I don't know what I'm doing. But I really want to think that I have made a number of tiny nightmares for some future employer, Like I want to set you all up to make

someone else really mad in the future. So all of you, everyone on the She's on the Money and Zella team has always had to negotiate for their pay rise, even if I thought you completely completely deserved it. Really absolutely ask Jess, I did the same thing to her, I was like, all right, talk to me about this. I want to give you X amount as an income moving forward.

You're going to have to tell me why I'm doing that, wow, because I don't want someone coming in and me go, hey, j just so you know your new salaries this you've

been here for a year and you go okay. And I also don't think it has the same power, you know, as an employer, which this is probably really unhelpful for everybody who is an employee at the moment, but I don't think it has the same power as an employer to be like, hey, ge, just so you know, I really appreciate the time, the energy, the effort that you've been putting in over the last couple of years. To she's on the money. Therefore, you're going to get this

because you're going to walk out and go okay, the problems. Yeah, but if I go, gee, what did you do? Why do you get this? You go, oh, So, I don't know. But I want you to think of those things yourself and kind of make you see that value so that hopefully in the future when you do have a future employer, god forbid that ever actually happens. You go, hold on, hold on, No, I did all this stuff, and I know that should be remunerated. I know that's the way

this works. But back to employeemode for a hot second. There are so many tips for this and so many things that we need to reframe because I think a lot of you are going to go, oh VI, these tips they're all about audacity and having audacity and coming in to a meeting with more confidence than I have. No, it's not. It's actually about knowing your worth and knowing what you are worth and how to value that and how to see that. And it's not actually about being audacious.

It's actually just about asking for the same thing. And it's also about being respected, because, to be honest, if any employee comes to any employer and says, this is what I'm doing, this is how I'm doing it, this is my research, this is what my comparison is, should that not be respected? Like that's pretty cool. I really like that. So let's get into some hot tips. Number One, evidence research. Pretend it's like a murder. We are going to find as much evidence as it's like a murder.

We're trying to slay it, right, Okay, not literally, but all right, I'm going to back down. We're not a crime podcast, but maybe one we could be. It's my dream. It's my dream to be she's on the crime I think that would work. But evidence and research. Keep a folder in your email and I've told you guys this before, but keep a folder on your computer with good feedback that people give you along the way. It is so hard if you're like, oh my gosh, I'm having a

meeting with my boss on Friday. I'm just going to go find all my stuff. No. Over the year. If someone sends a really nice email Jeet, great work, really appreciate you, copy paste straight into the acknowledgments folder. One is really good for negotiating salary and having chats with your boss. Two, if you're having a little bit of a flat day, a little bit of self doubt, go to your little self doubt folder and read through all

of the cool things people have said about you. Ten out of ten can make you feel better because I have tried this. That's a great idea. You're welcome. Next is pick the top of the range. Just go straight to the top. You can always negotiate down from there, So go straight to the top. After researching your market value. Might be tempting to, like, you know, pick the middle because you go, all right, so I've done this research,

and this job is between eighty and one hundred thousand dollars. Look, ginoir, I'm just going to tell them that I want ninety, you want ninety, so you want a hundred. Negotiate them down to there, and then walk out by yourself a note lastey and be like ha ha got em. Instead of going for that middle ground. I think that is really important. Like give your boss room to negotiate down, because if you're in the mood for negotiation, I am absolutely certain that your boss is too. Next, pick an

exact number. Okay, it's like putting in an offer on a house. They'll think you've done so much more work. If you pick a specific number, like ninety four thousand and seven hundred and fifty dollars is what I would expect for this role, they'll be like, oh my god, what has she done? She must have done some super extensive research into the market value of her role, interesting, instead of ninety five thousand.

be willing to walk away. Obviously. This then extends because this is like now becoming a money slash life, you know, advice podcast. But you need to be willing to walk away. So you need to come up with a walk away point, a final offer that's so low that you have to just say, do you know what I'm worth more than that? And unfortunately the remuneration of that role doesn't meet my

expectations and I'll have to look elsewhere for employment. Like I know that that is really hard, especially because sometimes the job market is really tough. But you need to know you're worth so pick that number. It could be based on your personal financial needs, it could be based on market value, or simply just what number you need to feel is worth taking that job. Some people might be like, oh my gosh, I'm nearly thirty. I want to earn eighty grand or I want to earn ninety

grand or one hundred grand. And that's your number for the next role you have. Well, bab, that's your number. And I think that we really need to stick to that. Walking away from an offer is never ever, ever easy, But I think it's really important to know when to do it and also how powerful it can be to just say no. Yeah, how often do you just go? I negotiated and I didn't get what I want, so I compromised, and now I'm unhappy. Now I'm unhappy. Like that's not a good thing.

to ask yourself a few questions. Have you been at your job for a year yet? Obviously, as I said, tenure's not important, but if you're asking after three months, you are not off probation yet, my friend, Have you taken on any new responsibilities since you got hired? Have you been exceeding expectations? Not just meeting them? But do you know what's really frustrating when you go to a job interview and you're like, well, what would it take to meet the expectations and they say something like we

want you to always exceed expectations. Well, so if I exceed expectations, am I actually just meeting the expectation that you just set? In which case, how do I actually exceed expectations and get a pay rise? How does that work?

really important when asking for a salary increase. The answer to all of those questions TLD needs to be yes before you actually start negotiating a salary Geking, I am sorry, next time it right. Timing always has to be right. Most people wait until kind of like performance review season. I know a lot of people who are really guilty of this to ask for a salary adjustment. They might be in a position where they have a job where they're like, oh no, they don't review salaries until July.

I need to fit into this like status quo of how this works. But by that time, your boss has probably already decided what raises people are going to have. By July, he's already probably put it in his head or her head that all, right, well, G King's been doing pretty well, Probably give her a pay rise and completely forgets Victoria because they haven't been able to see what you've been achieving. So instead we're not saying marching and be like, hey, I know salary reviews are only

in July. Be like, I want to talk about my salary. I know reviews are coming up in July. I want to put on the table what I've done, but also I want to ask what I need to do to get to this next level. I want to talk to you about how this is going to work. So start talking to your boss about getting a raise. I would say a minimum of three to four months before you're actually going to get it, or before that budget is allocated.

The next is a bit of mindfulness, my friend. Practice and center your thoughts is what is written down here, and I think that that is actually really important practice you'll pitch on a family member or just in the miraca. Sometimes it can be kind of intimidating. Also, I've never practiced anything in the mirror because I'm like, wow, do I really look like that? Do my eyebrows move like that?

So if it works for you, do you boo? But sometimes I just sit in bed with my notes and read it aloud and think about how I sound much less intimidating from the comfort of the bits. You also can't get distracted with pimples if you can't see your shapes. Really important, but send to yourself. Try and practice it, because this is going to be a really emotional conversation for you, but it's not going to be an emotional conversation for your boss. So don't go in and be like,

I'm so nervous. This is going to be such a hard conversation. That's on you, and I think we need to remember that because too often we get so worked up. Your boss is your boss. It's their job to pragmatically assess your capabilities and your performance. In fact, that's in their job description to do this. You're going in there helping them do their job. I mean, probably don't do it in a condescending way, but at the end of the day, a boss should welcome conversations like this because

a high performing employee makes them look good. A high performing employee that deserves a raise is definitely an employee that I want to have on my team. Per lean out away from your emotions and if that means you need to practice it and change your pitch and then lean into your evidence and the research that you've done so that you can really rely on that instead of going But I deserve it, like that is not a conversation that anyone should be having when it comes to salary.

Quote I deserve it because is not the answer. The answer is I deserve it because I've been going above and beyond doing my role. I deserve it because I've been putting extra time, energy and effort into this. Or I deserve it because I achieved these sales instead of these sales. Like there are so many things that you can say, but just because you feel like you deserve it that I need to This makes sense? Yep? Gee? What day of the week do you pick? How do

you know when to do it? Do you like, come in bright eyed and bushy tailed on a Monday morning or do you wait for four pm on Friday so that you can just slink away if you're feeling a little bit awkward.

more accommodating as the week wears on. Quote from some research online, Thursdays and Fridays find us most open to negotiation and compromise because we just want to finish our work before the week is out. And from my perspective, approaching your boss for something really important on a Friday is kind of rude because they're probably trying to just get everything off their plate that they didn't do earlier in the week like I do. Talk to me on a Thursday.

is massive. I promise they wouldn't have advertised the role g if they didn't need you in the first place, I need you to remember that while self confidence is a very important aspect of assertiveness, make sure that it doesn't develop into like a sense of self importance. You know how, sometimes there are people that are just confident, and then there are people that are cocky. We don't want to be cocky. We just want to be confident.

And your rights, thoughts, feelings, needs and desires are just as important as everybody else's, but not more important than everybody else's. But I think one thing that we all can agree on is that women tend to think that our rights are not as important as everybody else. So let's just cut that out here and now. The next is voice your needs and wants confidently. It feels like a hard thing to do, but I promise when you do it, the confidence it gives you back is so

so powerful. The next is acknowledging, unfortunately Georgia King, that you can't control other people's behavior, and that their behavior actually has nothing to do with you. Their behavior is a reflection of their experiences, their thoughts, their feelings, none of which have anything to do with you. The next is express yourself in a positive way. It's really important to say what's on your mind, even when you have a difficult or negative issue to deal with, but you

need to do it really constructively and sensitively. Something that good Old Eric Divine my dad has always said. He says this thing that I have always carried. And if you follow me on Instagram, you've already heard this before because I've said it a million times. But it's honesty tempered with mercy, Like be honest, but did you really need to be honest? It's like kind of being kind like, yeah, oy,

you're right, that was the truth. But if the truth is really going to hurt someone, we're not going to lie, but we might not say everything that is on our mind. Yeah right, good for good on your dad. Honesty tempered with mercy I feel like has been drilled into me since I was tiny. The next is be open to criticism and complaints. It's hard. It's really hard. The last thing you want is someone being like, hey, V, so you're not actually as good at the job that you've

been doing as you thought you were. I know you have a podcast, but ah, you're just not that good at it. But the only way I can get better at that thing is if somebody tells me and if someone gives me constructive criticism. The important thing here, though, is understanding the difference between constructive criticism and someone just giving you criticism. Can you walk away and change that? Can you actually do something about it? It's kind of a give and take. I hate the idea that people

are like, oh, but you have to be open to criticism. Well, thank you person on the internet. But you telling me that I have an ugly nose is not going to help me in any way, shape or form. But you telling me that the tone of voice that I use is not as constructive and that maybe using a different one could be a little bit better for me, that's constructive criticism. At the end of the day, people should only be telling you things that you can actually change.

And if they're telling you something that you can't change or shouldn't have to change about yourself, they need to get straight in the binge king one percent, just jump right in there, jump right in there, next one before I give it back to you for some more questions. Is just learn to say no, much harder done than said. Saying no is so powerful, but practice it on small things before you actually practice it on the big things.

Don't just jump straight into saying no to your boss about a really big project they need you to take on. Start with colleagues, start with friends, start with family. Saying no is not actually about you saying no you don't want to help them, but rather no, I actually have my priorities in a different area.

happy to do that thing. Right Whereas if I said to you G for fifty bucks, would you do ABCND? And you'd be like no, So you need to sit down and go all right, people want from me this Obviously, if you're still willing to give it, what would I charge? That means that that trade off of my time or mine energy, or my effort and me doing something that I am not as happy to do. But like, what's my number? Maybe you go, G know what, that's a premium.

That's actually five hundred dollars feet I might turn around and go gee, like other people are doing it for a hundred and you go, Okay, your problems get them if you want me, it's five hundred. Yeah, And if someone is then willing to pay you for that service, you go, great, I've made five hundred bucks. But I think a lot of people just panned to to the normal panned to to industry rate is this, and creatives

are especially bad at that. They'll be like, oh, well, industry average is you know, eighty bucks an hour or ninety bucks an hour or whatever it is. I don't know off the top of my head. So if that's an offensive rate, I do apologize. But if you are ninety bucks an hour on average across the board, but you're like, well, I don't want to do that thing, or that thing's impacting my lifestyle or my family time, or you know, I just don't want to do it.

You don't need a good reason. My rate's two hundred. Don't feel bad about that, because there'll be two trade offs, right. You'll either get less work, which is what you wanted in the first place, because you didn't want to do the work, or you just get a whole heap of really well peg work and you really need to put your rate up again.

to actually put yourself in the driver's seat. So it's I would like I need, or I feel, to convey basic assertions to get your point across firmly. Too many times do I see people trying to shift the not the blame, but the responsibility I suppose onto someone else and be like, well, you ask me to do all of these extra tasks and I should be remunerated for them. Okay, I'm happy to take on these extra tasks if I'm

appropriately remunerated for them. Like, those are two very different statements, shifting control from one party to another, Like if you're saying you always make me versus I take it on happily. Like, those are two very different things, and we need to get on the same page about that, So we use I statements now moving forward exclusively brilliant. The next is empathy, So trying to recognize and understand how the other person

actually views the situation. This can be really hard because sometimes you don't actually have a clear understanding of what your colleagues are performing like or conversations that are happening behind closed doors. But empathy is really really important. You need to take the other person's point of view into

consideration to express what you then need from them. Because if you know that that person, your manager, somehow had their budget completely stripped from them, they have just had to let go a few new employees, take on a whole heap of other employees, it doesn't mean that your situation is not valid. It goes back to what we're saying in the first part of this episode. You need

to pick your timing right. So yes, you need to do it three or four months before you actually want that pay rise, but you need to pick the right time. And if your boss maybe their partner is about to have a baby, maybe it's just not the right time. Maybe you know that they went to a funeral a

week ago. Just make sure that you're taking into consideration that you know might be going on in their world, so that you're not picking a time where they go, Gee, I just don't have time for this, because that doesn't serve you at all. The next year is escalation. So if your first attempts at asserting yourself have not been successful, then you might need to actually escalate the matter further.

This means becoming a little bit firmer. Though it's still polite and still always respectful, you may not still get what you want in the end, unfortunately, and if this is the case, you might need to have a little talk to yourself and take some further action by setting up a formal meeting to talk about the problem, or escalating your concerns to HR or your boss or g actually having a little bit of a think about whether

that job is serving you any further. I know that this sounds really flippant, and too many people will say that this is an entitled point of view, but I don't believe tenure equals loyalty. I think if a job is not serving you, is not treating you with a respect, it doesn't matter if you've been there fifteen years. You need to drop it like a hotcake and move on to a place that does respect you well.

Too often we speak because we're trying to fill a void, you know, when an allulling conversation happens and people go so to do the you don't need to do this, So just sit there and use your time efficiently to actually think about what you want and need and respectfully answer.

The same thing I think came up in our interview episode where we talked about how to interview well and what that actually meant, because interviewing can be really hard, and sometimes they ask a question and you want to reply really quickly because you don't want to see them incompetent. But sometimes taking that second and going hmm, let me

have a think about that for a second. Yeah, so g the way I would have approached that situation can sound so much more intelligent, and you actually put yourself in a better position to answer that question. Yeap ten out of ten. Do that. Also, change your verbs. Try using verbs that are a bit more definite and emphatic when you communicate. This is going to help you send a clear message and avoid sugar coating their message, which can actually lead to people being confused about what you

actually want from them. So to do this, use verbs like will instead of could, want instead of need, or choose instead of have to the next thing. G. This is just an across the board memo for everyone who

writes emails. Next time you write an email, before you send it, you're just going to go, oh, V said I had to look at something, and then you're going to look for the word just and you're going to backspace the word just because they guarantee you it will make you look more assertive and more clear on what you want. Too many times we go just popping in here to check up on the status of this meeting or the status of this project. No, no, no, it's

actually my job to check up on the status. Like just downplays the job that you do.

dodgy Dta Vonteese quote. You could be like the ripest, fuzziest peach in the entire world, and there's still going to be someone who doesn't like peaches. Yeah, that's good Jessica ICI's favorite fruit is peaches, though, so it wouldn't be her. She would love you bryally. But I think it's really important to remember that you can't be everything to everybody, and you actually owe it to yourself to respect yourself enough to not downplay the needs that you have. You're not just doing anything.

put in there. If I'm having a work transaction and I'm asking for something that is not from my work bestie, I would ask just something like, oh, just wondering where that is, because that's actually my term of phrase, right, That's something I would say. But if I'm trying to be assertive, if I'm trying to justify what I want in a negotiation, especially about my salary. G Just isn't a word we use. I don't want to just have

a quick chat to you about my salary. I want your time, I want your energy, and I want your attention on me so that I can negotiate my salary. It's not just a quick minute. Do you know what I mean? Yeah? Yeah, So I always say that I don't want to be a broken record, but gee, you do want to be a broken record, because, for instance, if you can't take on any more work, you need to be really direct and just say I can't take

on any more projects right now. If people still don't get the message, then restate your message using the same language. And I wouldn't relent, I wouldn't change that. I would just say, hey, as I said, unfortunately, I don't have the capacity to take on any more projects. Also, again another side note for the creatives that are listening here who often get asked to do free work. The response to that that we have at Cheese on the Money is thank you so much for taking the time to

consider me. Unfortunately, I don't have the capacity to take on unpaid work at this point in time. Brilliant. No, thanks by, I don't have the capacity hey to play Yeah, brilliant And that's still a really nice way of communicating it.

important piece of employment law that exists in Australia. Here in Australia, as we probably should already know, it is completely unlawful to discriminate based on a number of protected attributes like age, disability, race, sex, intersex status, gender identity and sexual orientation in certain areas of public life, including

education and employment. Employees actually have an obligation to comply with all aspects of Australian employment law to ensure that employees can work comfortably in a safe and secure environment that is free from bullying, discrimination and harassment. However, the Fair Work Act two thousand and nine is not the only piece of workplace relations legislation g in Australia, as it is supplemented by other federal, state and territory laws. So I can't just give advice here because it changes

for absolutely every state and territory. Nor does all of this apply to each and every single workplace here in Australia. So for example, Western Australia actually maintains its own state plased workplace relation system that partially covers the private sector of that state. It's also important to know that workplace relation systems covers your business and employees to determine what

legislation is actually going to apply. So it can be quite confusing, but the best thing you can do if you're in a bit of a pickle is head to the Fair Work website, super straightforward and very easy to navigate through. But you can also call them if you want to have a chat with them. They are super friendly. I promise I have called it a couple of times even as an employer, to be like, hey, what does this mean, how does this work? What's going on here?

So ask questions. It's free and if they can't help you, they'll let you know.

with disputes that happen in workplaces. As an independent tribunal, they can't give you legal advice, but they can help you with a few things, and I've listed them down, so listen carefully. The first is claims about dismissal. If you feel like you might have been unfairly dismissed, you can ask them about that. Disputes about bullying or discrimination. You can talk to them about other rights under quote general protections. You can talk to them about agreements and

the bargaining process. You can talk to them about applications to make or change wards, the decisions the Commission has made, and how to submit a claim. They are very very helpful and we will as always link them in our show notes so you can reach out if you need.

business owners. And then I would also try hard to take into account all of those tips because all of those tips apply to you negotiating with clients, to you negotiating with contracts that you might have to sign. And I promise you your time is worth so much more than what you're charging for it. And if you've been looking for a sign and you haven't done it yet, and you haven't put your prises up and you've been

thinking about it, now's the time. Now it's the time, and then you're going to message me and you're going to tell me that's what you did. And I'm going to be wildly proud of you.

space that they deserve to grow. They deserve to have their employment contracts reviewed, They deserve to talk about salary increases and to be honest. As much as I talk about you asking to renegotiate your salary, your employer should be coming to you on a regular basis if they know you're putting more time, energy and effort into a job and going, hey, gee, let's talk about that. It is really important. So, given leadership has such a direct impact on retention, I think it would be very very

intelligent to focus more on it. What is expected from leaders now in twenty twenty two is so much one greater but two so much different from what it used to be. I think we used to think that our managers came in allocated tasks, and now it is so

much more than that. Even though it is still super important to have strategic perspective and I guess financial acumen to be a good leader, the last two years have really brought to the forefront the potance of an ability to connect and listen to your employees, like I feel like that should have been their bare minimum from the start, but unfortunately it wasn't. Compassionate leadership has finally gained a really prominent seat at the table, and I am so here for it. G and I can't wait to see

how this pans out. V I reckon, that's probably.

We'll see you on Friday zero