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Welcome to the Grow and Glow Podcast. I'm actually Bynes. This is a podcast where we learn.
Laugh, and level up together.
Let's go deep, let the emotions flow, find the lessons to grow and glow. Nothing is off the table with Grow and Glow, and I'm here to be your expander. Hello everybody, and welcome back to Grow and Glow. I've got a special guest with me. I don't know how I found you online, stalked you down somehow, and then I want to watch my girlfriend speak and you were also on stage and I was like, oh my gosh, so cool. So welcome Ryan to the podcast.
Thanks for being here, Thank you so much for having me on.
Today.
We're talking about wounded masculine, which I think is a topic that I mean, I've looked a lot into but a lot of people might not understand or know much about it. But if you have a husband, a son, a brother, this information is going to be super super helpful. So we're going to go quite deep into it today. But before we do, we do a share of the week.
Each week.
Look, I was thinking about yeah, product or something like that, and then I really thought I want to give as much value as I can on this podcast, And something that's really been present for me as of late as being a single man at the moment, is learning how to cultivate a connection with the feminine energy without women.
Wow.
Yes, so I've been exploring that. It's been really cool doing that in a very conscious way, being not in a relationship at the moment and being able to actually explore that and find those connections within myself. Like, yeah, it's been incredible. So instead of receiving let's say, even like the physical touch of having a partner, this is for men and women as well. Yeah, it's learning how to meet those needs within myself and connecting with myself
on that depth and that level. It's been really really cool, really Yeah. And simple things like being intentional about the feminine energy of like having a bar, but like receiving, practicing receiving like the warmth of the bath, like the sensations, like the subtleness of it, allowing myself to receive which is which is a feminine Yeah.
It's a beautiful dance.
Whenever I talk about masculine and feminine energy, sometimes get a bit of a pushback online because I think people think that you're either masculine or you're feminine, but both are so equally important and it's about like bringing them together to work together.
That's really cool.
Yeah, absolutely, So.
Today we're talking about wounded masculine in your own words. What is that for someone who's never heard that terminology before? What is a wounded masculine?
Yeah, So the wounded masculine energy is really the unprocessed trauma that we hold in our body as men and women. But for the most part, I'm just speaking to men. Yes, So it's the unprocessed trauma or wounds that we hold and store in our body based on the needs that we didn't have met in childhood.
As a little boy.
Yes. Yeah, My whole thing is helping men heal the little boy within them. What I'm speaking of is the sess energy and emotion, which is trauma that's stuck in the body, which then manifests as what we know is like toxic masculine traits. Yes, yeah, and that comes out as you know, everything we see in relationships, specifically like reactivity, defensiveness, and the wounded masculine traits that most people know about.
So yeah, I just actually finished my last session last week with a feminine coach and majority of the sessions. I've always worked with male coaches, which I love, but I feel like it's been more in my head and logical and this is a problem.
This is let's understand it, this is what you.
Can do, Whereas with her it was all about like feeling and a lot of the sessions were visualizations going back to a moment that was traumatic for me and going back and actually had to visualize.
Okay, where was my little girl, what was she wearing? Where was she in?
Like a lot of time I was on my bed, curled up or in a corner crying, and then me, isn't my adult self have to walk in?
And then what does she need?
And at the start, I found it really hard to be there for her, and I remember crying in my second session. I was just crying. She's like, what's coming up for you? And I said, I'm scared I can't be consistent for her. And that moment I realized how much I abandoned myself all the time. And throughout this last three months, I've learned that I'd either go to food to distract from my feelings or scroll my phone.
So throughout this three months, been so beautiful to now instead of when I go to grab my phone or go to look for a snack, I'm like, no, I actually need to go and sit with her. And I can't blame anyone else for abandoning me because I'm doing it all the time. And it's been so nice to build that trust and relationship with her aka and myself that I've always got my own back. But before this, it's just like I didn't realize how much that can
impact your life. It's the most powerful work, but it's uncomfortable.
It is. It is uncomfortable, and that's because as humans we do everything to avoid feeling pain. Yeah, And also like the greatest gifts are within that pain as well. The more a man has a capacity to face himself and do that work that you were just speaking of, the more courage he has to actually lean in and face himself, the easier it gets as well. And so for me in my healing journey, like it's always a journey, it's never.
Ending, yeah, and I wish it was sometimes.
What you just shared than is the exact prime example of the wounded and a child and men that are addicted to porn, drinking addictions, like scrolling their phone working. He's a massive probably the biggest one that yeah, yeah, probably the biggest one. And then typically where it comes out is when they create massive success and they sell their company or something happens, and then they lose a
sense of purpose. Yeah, that little boy within him was gaining that sense of purpose through the validation of either making money or let's say a relationship. Yeah, And then he doesn't just lose the business or a relationship, he's losing his sense of meaning and purpose as well.
When a man is in his wounded masculine energy, Can we talk about what happens in a relationship dynamic and what happens when he's not in a relationship the type of behavior, Like I know you said, there can be reactivity. Could you dive have a little bit more deeper into what shows up?
Yeah? Absolutely, So this is really coming into what's known as toxic masculinity. And the thing is with toxic masculinity is there's actually no such thing. There's either healthy expressions of masculinity or unhealthy expressions of masculinity. When we label toxic masculinity, we're really putting a label and putting men into a box. Saying you're a toxic man, and we
all have the capacity for these traits. I've been labeled a toxic masculine man before, and I held so much shame on that because I made it mean that that's who I am.
I'm a toxic male.
Yes, yeah, And the biggest issue with the wounded in a child is we internalize what's called toxic shame. So we need healthy levels of shame, which gives us boundaries as humans. So we need a healthy level to know our limits as humans. Right. But when a little boy doesn't have his needs met in the sense of he knows love is not going to be taken away from him if he makes a mistake, he knows that he's a high priority, his needs matter, his emotional experience matters,
and that his parents are okay. As children are egocentric, the world revolves around us because we have to have our needs met. Yeah, And because it makes no sense to a child that he's not getting his basic survival needs met because of what's happening in his parents, well maybe because they're emotionally disconnected, he starts to internalize that shame as if there is something wrong with me, and it's no longer I've made a mistake, It's I am the mistake. It's no longer I made a fuck up.
I am the fuck up.
So for a little kid to carry, yes.
This is the foundation of shame that then his life is built upon. Based on that identity that he's built his life on, that foundation of shame is the unprocessed trauma of that little boy who feels at his core there's something wrong with me and who I am is not okay, and that trapped energy of the wounded boy, or that trauma in the body. As I shared before, like love and connection and having our needs met as
our survival and as a child. If you don't have those basic needs, those dependency needs met in childhood, the other option is you die. Right because we as humans were dependent, we don't have caregivers to look after us and feed us and take care of us. We will die to a little boy who experiences inconsistent or disconnected
love from his parents based on what's going on. And it could be as simple as your mom might not be solely connected to herself and she can't fully reflect back to you that all of you is welcome and okay, and in that moment, that little boy is shame based. There's something wrong with me, something broken with me. You know, this is very much my journey, my story, right, this was me and this is what I call the mother wound. I'm really given the back context of like how this
then shows up in relationships. But the deepest core wound that men experience is the mother wound. And it's not necessarily the actual mother, but it's the energy of the mother. It's motherly energy. So the nurturing, the soft touch, the reflection back to him that all of him is welcome, and okay, the quality of touch that he received from his mother or his dad as well, it's the motherly energy. So when he doesn't receive this, he's then stuck in
a state of survival. When we're in survival, we do everything in our power to get out of cvival, right, so we be and become whoever we need to be in order to get our needs.
Mate, Like so much sense.
Yeah, So now this little boy from the absolute beginning is shape shifting and becoming the chameleon to be and become whoever he needs to be to either win approval from his dad or to receive consistent love, and that to have reflected back to him that all of him is welcome and okay. So when this little boy is stuck in this date of survival, he no longer has the safety in his environment and in his nervous system to be in tune with his own internal experience growing up.
He stops receiving the gifts and the strengths that he's supposed to receive in each stage of development. So basically he loses his childhood. He loses what he's supposed to receive in every stage of development. So for example, in infancy, when we don't have our call dependency needs met, we become dependent in relationship or overly independent in relationship, so anxious or avoidant attachment. Right when that attachment system is activated, right,
that's where the little boy comes out in relationship. And now he's in survival. And when he's in survival, he bees and becomes whoever he needs to be in order to keep his partner happy. So she stays and loves him, so he becomes the nice guy. The people pleas are yes, yeah, or he disconnects because it's too painful, and he actually shuts off and just closes off and moves away. Right, So then this is how those toxic masculine traits start
showing up in relationships. But it's the energy this little boy, Like, at the core of a man, we just want to provide, and we want the absolute best for the people that we love most, Like we just want to give them everything. Like every man I've ever speak to, like at his core, that is what he wants to do is serve and provide. Survival is more important than that. So when that little boy is activated, that's when he starts hurting the people
that he loves. And even though he's trying his absolute best to provide and be the best man possible, he's unconscious to how his wounds are actually pushing people away or how his wounds are actually hurting other people, the
people he loves most. And I normally say, like, the reason why the wounded in a boy comes out in relationships is because it's the safe space where he's finally having it reflected back to him of a love that's so meaningful to him, right, that reflects his parents and as a representation of the love he received from his parents.
Yeah, So if someone's listening and they're like, oh my gosh, I can so see this in my partner, but it's really hard to hold when they become anxious. First of all, do you want to give a little breakdown on anxious attachment and avoid an attachment? Then that will further answer my question of like, how do they help support that little boy or encourage their husband to support their own little boy?
Yeah? Great question. So the anxious is think of anxious as can't remember which book I got this from, but I saw these two pictures. I was like, that is a perfect example of this. Anxious is like the octopus. So when the anxious is activated in a man or even a woman, yes, is the tentacles start reaching out, They start trying to grab anything and everything. Yes, anything
and everything. The anxious attachment is very much the sitting by your phone checking it five times every thirty seconds to see if your partner replied or responded, or the constant rumination of like, what are they doing? You know what's happening in reassurance all the time? Yep? Yeah. And at the root of that is the fear of abandonment, fear of this person's going to leave me, right, so I must be become whoever I need to be in order for them to stay. I need to keep getting
touch points. I need constant reassurance that you're not going to leave me, that I'm okay, I'm all good. And the biggest issue is when a man doesn't have that ability to self soothe and regulate his emotions because he didn't receive that strength in development. Now he's in a state of activation and he doesn't know what to do. Yeah, so he then distracts. He then just goes, I'm just going to train really hard today.
Successful, yes, right, yeah.
Yes, and distracts. And when we distract, we actually separate ourselves and we become more disconnected over time because we're actually moving further away from feeling.
What needs to be felt.
Yeah, that's the anxious, And then the avoidance is it's so painful, I shut down.
Yeah.
Yeah. So think of this as like fight or flight response. So we've got fight flight, which is pretty much the anxious, like fight flight, I'm going to fight to get your attention and love and fawn. So feign response is actually people pleasing. It's a trauma response, becoming whoever you need to be in order to keep them happy so they stay.
So those are the first three. So we got fight flight, fawn, and then we've got freeze right, freeze, and then pretty much disconnect and run away, which is avoidant, yeah, which is shut down, which is going quiet, stone walling, spending less time at home. Imagine like pulling up in the driveway and like not wanting to go inside because you're like, oh, like I don't know what. It's overwhelming for their nervous system pretty much basically, and they get into shut down
or they need to run away or distance themselves. And that's pretty much the strategy that they developed as a child to either keep themselves safe or gain love and connection in some way. That's how attachments really developed.
Yeah, those attachment stars I've spoken about before in the podcast. It's not just two men, Like I'm definitely more anxious and my partners more an avoidant, which is like the opposite. So I'd get more anxious than he'd avoid more. They can like separate more and you've got both in a relationship.
Something that's not spoken about enough with this is that it's actually healthy.
Yeah.
Yeah, because I'm like, yeah, tell me what. Because opposites attract, true, we live in a yes, we live in a world of duality. Yes, we live in a world of polarity duality, right, yeah, and when we try and live a one sided life and in a two sided reality, it's the source of all suffering, which is what my mental always shares with me. So understanding that like male, female, masculine and feminine, like we have opposites to everything and in this sense, that's
why we're attracted to each other as humans. Yeah. But then there's the activated anxious and avoidance, yes yeah, and then there's the like the healthy stage where it's communicated you know what you need to feel safe, you know what you need to come back to connection, yes, yeah, and then you know what you need within your relationship for there to be a greater level of devotion and vision towards what you're creating together.
It is really when you can have those conversations because like we've been to get the sixteen years now, but the start, which was just no understanding around it was like anxious avoidant, It was.
Just caused a lot.
But now it's like when you understand that person, you can actually support where they're at and know what they need to feel safe. And then over time like now I'm just I'm so secure with him, I wouldn't even describe myself as anxious with him. Maybe more friendships, but yeah, it's really cool to understand those. So if I'm a woman listening and I'm like, wow, my husband is so avoidant, I understand all of this.
Now what do I do? Ryan? Help me? What advice would you give?
The thing is with men, men need to do it from a place of empowerment. That's the thing.
Good point criticism.
Yes, So typically when a woman pushes for a man to, hey, do this work, Hey, listen to this podcast, Hey read this book, his feeling is out the door. Yeah. Run, you're playing the role of his mother again. Yes, true, And with that that's the biggest tone for him, and he's going to move even further away. But the greatest invitation of woman can bring to the table to invite a man into doing the work is by her going
first leading. Yes, hold the torch, yeesh. The beautiful part about the feminine is a feminine woman will constantly, through her self expression, trigger a man into doing the work. And those triggers, over time are the subtle invitations for
him to lean in and face his deepest wounds. And the unfortunate truth is most men wait until the feather brick in the truck, right all, there's like a thousand invitations for him to step up, to lead, to look within and handle his past wounds that are showing up in the relationship. Typically it's when it's painful enough.
So when there's a breakdown of the marriage.
Yeah, I don't think there's any one reason, but I think that men are really good at especially men that are very much in their head. They're very good at justifying, and they're analytical thinking and like logically trying to solve problems. What we're doing then is we're actually even creating more disconnect because we're in our head more than being in the body.
Yeah.
Yeah, And when we look at the mind, it's the conscious mind is only five percent. So yeah, yeah, So real transformation happens when we go with into the body and start processing a lot of the wounds that are in the body. So a woman going first being the imitation through her self expression, through her just just being her most empowered self, that's beautiful. Yeah.
I do feel like that's quite a common thing. Like, if I think of my journey, Steve has definitely led me in a lot of things, but I've definitely led him and say with a lot of my girlfriends, and normally the first one to start the self development, do the courses, listen to the podcast, and then the man starts to curious.
But as soon as you start to create.
I know for Steve, if I ever criticize him, it's like, well, wall up, it just doesn't work, yeap.
The gift of the feminine for a man is she'll constantly invite him into his heart. Yeah, constant imitations for him to get out of his head into his heart. Woman wants to feel that this man is connected to his heart. So beautiful esphere she feels safe.
Yeah.
Yeah, So the feminine provokes for a man to be connected to his heart, and a man provokes the feminine to be connected to her body and in her body and grounded in her body.
So beautiful.
I know you've spoken a lot about the little boy and like infant stage and when we're growing up in the first seven years are such an important part of our life where we get all our beliefs. When I was speaking to my husband about this recently, we're talking about past traumas, he said, he feels like more of his traumas have come from his twenties and the mistakes he's made in his adult life rather than when he was a child.
I think it can be both.
Do you think that is him avoiding and like maybe not wanting to visit his childhood or do you think that can be true that more traumas can come from adult life as well.
Yeah, what I know to be true is that we don't know what we don't know, and we'll do our best with the information that we have. Yes, right, So if that's the information that we have, that's cool. That's all I've got. Now there's the two different types of trauma. There's big T trauma, there's little tea trauma. Now, the issue with this, With big T trauma, it's like there's a big, very evident event that happened that I can point my finger out all the details. It was that
when I was twenty. That's why I am this way, yes, right. But then small TA trauma, which is what I work with, it's this micro, subtle trauma that happens over a long period of time that you can't put your finger on. And typically it's emotional abuse that you experience in childhood, and emotional abuse can actually just be Your parents were disconnected from themselves emotionally and couldn't love you in the way that you needed. Yes, that's emotional abuse. You didn't
get the needs. Abuse can be so subtle. The issue with this is when we confuse love with the trauma and the wounding that we experience growing up. So the love that we receive growing up, that's our representation and paradigm of love. Oh, that's the big issue. We don't know any different.
So that's what that kind of say. I don't focus, I don't know any different.
Yeah, that's what I saw mom and dad do. Like, this is my representation and worldview of masculine and feminine energy. I used to work with masculine and feminine energy. That was like my work, right, Yeah, and then I got over it because I was like, no real shift happens in someone when you start integrating more of the masculine archetypes or traits or the feminine.
It's the trauma you want to get too.
Yes, because at our core, we are naturally balanced within our core energies. Right, So when a man has his needs, man, he gains those strengths. So these developmental strengths he builds a healthy relationship with his emotions, which is his feminine energy, right, and then he has the ability to lead and make decisions and be in his own frame of energy, which is his masculine right. So in our core, we're naturally
balanced and the energy is already. So going back and healing that little boy that didn't feel safe enough to feel or express his emotions because maybe they would have been dismissed, right, or may be he didn't actually even have a representation or role model of what it meant to feel and process your emotions. He becomes disconnected from
his feminine energy. That's a mother wound. Yes, this is the mother wound and I'm speaking of the mother wound is the feminine energy that we experienced growing up and the disconnect we have with it. So that's how we can Yeah, it really starts showing up in the masculine and feminine dynamic. To bring it back to your question about your partner and.
The micro emoment, Yes, yeah, I use an example last night because we're actually talking about last night.
Our little girl was.
Sick and normally we pop her on a cot and we're like no no, She's like no, I love you and close the door and she goes to bed. And last night she was like needing cuddles from me, and then Steve woud leave the room.
She'd be like, daddy cuddles.
It went on for about fifteen minutes and singing, and she needed this whole thing. And afterwards I was saying to Steve, I was like, it's really nice that we can be her pain, relief, her safety, her love, her everything. And even though that was at the end of the day, I was tired. I didn't feel like I had much left in me for her. But I was like, if we didn't, if we just popped in a cot and then walked out and like let her cry to sleep,
that's a micro trauma. I was like, Oh, when I'm at my worst, mom and dad can't show it for me, when I cry, when I'm sick, when I'm whatever. I want her to know that we're alwaysy no matter what I think. If you miss those micro moments in your adult life, it shows up. Is that a good example, because that's how I felt.
Yep, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And is that something that you experienced as a girl.
So many miss moments from my parents, so many.
Yeah, that's a beautiful example of a core wound that you experienced in childhood. And one of the biggest issues where the wounded in a child plays out. And I'm not a parent, but I work with so many fathers, so many fathers, and it's got nothing to do with actually parenting, and everything to do with you parenting. You're in a girl or in a boy, yeah, yeah, yeah. The biggest issue where the wounded in a child comes
out is how you parent your children. And typically it's from place of I'm going to give you everything that I never had, Yeah, and in doing so, you're robbing that child from their independence. Yeah. Or this is how I was treated because this is what's familiar to me, and this is how you should also be treated. Or one thing was and this is what I experienced was my dad. He was like, well, I didn't have this as a kid, so why should you have it?
Yeah? I turned out all right, so you'll be fine. Yeah.
So that's a little boy in him like this, Like, how come he gets to have it? I didn't have it? So parenting from the wounded in a child, right, and when we're unconscious to it, like we don't know the
difference between anything because we aren't aware of it. Yeah yeah, So what I would say, like about your partner is all roads lead to childhood, and typically what we experience in our early adulthood is actually based on the foundation of that shame that's already there, and then our life is then built upon and then the only conscious memory
we have is this. But the absolutely bottom of it, the foundation of what led everything to that moment is the wounded in a boy or the unmet emotional needs. No one escaped childhood without nights, no one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you work a lot with men, what would you say is the main thing that they come to you for? It might not be what they actually need help for, but when they come to your book in a session, what would you say is the main thing that men in our society is struggling with?
Right now, my partner's going to leave me if I don't, really I don't do this work.
Yeah yeah.
The men that come to you at their final stage of like, I actually have no choice otherwise I'm going to lose.
My wife or my partner. Yeah.
Interesting, Okay, until it's painful enough. Men typically that's when they'll get off the nail. It's painful enough, get off the nails.
Yeah.
So what I've experienced in the men's coaching space is or in the men's personal development world, And if you have been in it, if you're a men's coach or anything, you know that it's hard to get men to events. It's hard to get men into the work.
Not as easy as women. No, we're like freely like whowday. Yes.
Yeah. One thing with that with my work was I realized I was like, no, men do do the work, because I've been to events where there's two hundred men sitting there eagerly learning, like it's possible. I know it. What creates this shift, what creates the shift from a man just opening his mind a little bit more to the work. I look back on my journey and every single time it's been a relationship breakup or breakdown that's invited me into the work. So it's like, Okay, well
that's who I'm going to speak to ye. And as soon as I started speaking to that, I had thousands of men coming to me, thousands. What brings them to doing this work or opening him is, like I said, when it gets painful enough, doesn't have to get to that. But yeah, it's typically how it initiates for them.
Yeah, definitely.
Even in our experience, which I've spoken about openly, the hard times that we've had in our marriage and relationship, that has created the biggest change as hard as like being in conflict or disagreeing or just not feeling super connected on the other side of a breakdown, as a breakthrough, it's a really cool mindset to have. Yeah, Normally, through the hardest, most painful moments, the biggest light comes through.
Yeah, the hardest moments that you've experienced is recognized. Like a breakdown brings a breakthrough. Is when a man leads the breakthrough, that's really where he gains this sense of like leadership and power in the relationship.
Yeah, i'd be so empowering for a man.
Yes, the greatest sense of providing is being able to provide emotionally for your partner. So when a man can provide that emotional security and safety for a woman to be at a heart being a feminine, it's the most everything and everything. Yeah, Yeah, it's everything.
Especially in today's society. A lot of I can speak on behalf of myself too, but a lot of my friends as well. We actually, yes, we like to be financially provided for, we actually don't need it anymore, Like we are more than capable of earning our own money. But the emotional safety, like we yearn for, like it is everything. It is literally everything.
Yeah, it's wired yes, into us. Right, So if we think of.
Take care of us to me passenger princess.
And like when you say that, I'm like, oh yeah, like that fires me up and I feel out of my gut because I'm like, I want to drive my woman around. I want her to be the passenger queen.
I want her to, you know, not bring her wallet because she knows that I've got it for her, yeah, enough to make decisions because I've already booked it.
Yeah. Yeah.
There are a lot of men out there that are in their healthy masculine a lot of the time. Yeah, that's going to be impossible for a woman to receive if she has the lenses on of men are unsafe based on her experiences.
Yeah.
So for me in my previous relationship, I did my absolute best to lead, to provide, to serve, like to the point where I lost myself in the relationship because it was impossible for me to actually lead, provide and for her feel safe. It was impossible because she had the lenses on of men are unsafe. I can't trust men, I can't relax or it's surrender to a man, right, and therefore men equals unsafe.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it was impossible for me to provide and give this woman what she needed. So I think that's really important to speak into because I work with a lot of men and sometimes I'm like, man, like, you're actually doing everything. Yes, there's still things for you to work on. There's a lot here, Like we still get to help always integrate this little boy, and you really
step into this whole other level of leadership. But based on what you share with me on your relationship, I don't think she can actually receive your leadership because of her wounds.
Yeah.
So with that, it's being really hard for her to open and relax and trust and surrender to a man's leadership, even if he is in his healthy masculine.
This work is not linear. It doesn't get to an end date. I feel like as soon as I'm like healing through something, universe is like there's something.
Else you're ready to level up. You asked for it.
But that's why there is incredible coaches out there, like, I love the coach on working with now, she's so beautiful. I've worked with multi different coaches for different reasons and different seasons that I've been in, but that's really beautiful. I've absolutely loved everything that you've shared. I feel like you could probably continue to talk for another three hours on it. But that's what you share on social media.
This is what you do for a coach. You have courses as well, do you have online?
Yeah, I'm actually releasing my first self paced program for me.
Yeah.
It's called Heal the Boy, Awaken the Man, and.
That's really cool and it's just good different pwending on people if they want to work face to face or depending on our finances, You've got different options for different people.
For anyone listening, where did they find you?
Instagram and Facebook? It just Ryan Moresby White. Yeah, super simple and I post a loon.
You do post a lot, so good love it every time. Popsuf.
I'm like, yes, like, thank you so much for sharing all that wisdom. We have you back on Wednesday, which is really cool. So today was all about the wounded masculine energy, and on Wednesday we're talking about men's mental health in general, which is a very important topic to be talking about and I don't think it's spoken about enough.
So thanks to join of us. We'll see you on Wednesday, Bi