Reshma Saujani: Fertility

be the perfect fit. The LEV School of Business is where you'll reach new heights without compromising your current career. You'll meet your part time NBA cohor two evenings per week on Lev's campus in the very heart of Silicon Valley, where innovation and creativity thrive. Join Silicon Valley's premiere part time MBA program for working professionals. Search Lev Evening MBA to discover more. Introducing Wondersuite from bluehost dot com website,

Creation is hard. What's hard? But not anymore? Thanks to wonder Suite from blue Host. Answer a fewquestions about your business and goals, and the wondersweet tools will automatically create your website or store. From there, you can customize your design, colors, and content, and we automatically help you get found in search engines like Google and Bing. From step by step guidance to suggested plugins, blue host makes WordPress wonderful for everyone.

Go to bluehost dot com slash wonder sweet. Okay, I have to ask, has anyone else tried applows. It's a hemp infused alcohol alternative, and I am obsessed. An Applos cocktail chills me out in a similar way to a glass of wine, but it doesn't include the calories, or the hangover or the bad sleep. In fact, I think I'm sleeping better, and if I'm going to be woken up by my kids in the morning, it feels pretty nice to wake up feeling good and on top of things.

If you've tried Applos, tell me what you think, and if not, it's one of those things you discover and you just want to tell everyone about it. If you've been trying to drink less alcohol or even hoping to go weekday sober, I one hundred percent recommend Applos. I believe in it so much I'm even investing in the company myself. I find it easiest to buy it online at applos dot world. Use code Emily at checkout for fifteen percent off your first order. I can't wait to

hear how you enjoy it. It's like you rather tell somebody you have cancer than say that you had a miscarriage. People don't know how to react, especially back then. Welcome to She Pivots. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. In twenty eighteen, I went through my own pivot. I had left my decade long political career in DC after having my first two kids during the Trump presidency and felt burnt out. At the time. I felt like I had lost my sense of myself and my idea of success.

But after talking with so many interesting women on this show and beyond, I began to realize that so many women had pivoted due to personal reasons, and they still found success through non traditional paths. This new show celebrates these stories, and I'm so excited to bring them to

you with She Pivots. You may have heard of Reshma's and Johnny from her incredibly successful organization Girls Who Code, or her books Brave Not Perfect in pay Up, or maybe you heard her talk about her Marshall plan for moms or perhaps you even caught her commencement speech for Yale this year. I've known Reshma for over a decade, and her drive and passion for change never seems to waiver. She's a fierce advocate for women and girls and has

never been one to shy away from the issue. She's an inspiration for me and for so many others, and her ambition has led to her incredible success. So how did Reshma go from what looked like the top of her career to dismantling the idea of success for women and realizing that the ideas of corporate feminism that she was peddling in her many speeches was exactly what harmed women and mothers like her. Layered on top of her struggles with fertility, Reshma's journey to success is not what

you might expect. Rashma sa Johnny. I am a mom, the CEO of marshal m and for Moms, and the founder of Girls. Who coulde you have had an incredibly successful career by any definition? Were you always so ambitious? Oh? My god, Yes, I was always so ambitious, you know, as my parents' careers refugees, So I was like an Indian girl whose parents were like, you can be a doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer. So you know, education was really stressed in our family. I also think we're a

very young age. I just wanted to get out of my working class neighborhood, get out of you know, Schamberg, Illinois, and really always had my sights on like making a difference in the world. So yes, what did you think getting out looked like? Like Like? What did success look like? Well, I would say I think success looked like me going

to Yale Law School. Returning to Yale for our keynote address, Rush Meshiel Johnny comes to share her journey and the wisdom collected along the way with the class of twenty twenty two. So without further ado, please join me and welcoming back to Yale. This rosh Meshio Johnny. Very it is an honor to be here. I want to thank you, know, like basically finding the most elite institution to accept you and validate you and getting there as fast as you could.

I was going through my middle school yearbook and the reason why I was I was I was in a very serious fight when I was in eighth grade. I got beat up because I was a brown girl, and message and I were bullied in school. And she was telling me when I had seen her about a few months ago that the girl who had bullied her at school had actually facebooked her and she was like a

mom of three, and she had apologized. And as my sister was telling me kind of her story, I was thinking of my own and trying to remember this my you know, one of my friends, you know, Fudoh, who had take walked me home after I had been beaten up with a baseball bat in the tennis racket. And so I was asking my dad do you remember her? Do you remember where she lives? And so my dad had pulled out because you know, I was coming home all of the yearbooks. So I and it was like

I kind of just relived that experience. So maybe it was part of being in a community that I didn't feel accepted, you know, maybe it was part of again just this I just always I just remember laying down on the grass looking at the clouds, just waiting for quote life to begin and for me to you know, I just never felt like I belonged where I grew up. I will say that when my sister told me that she got that apology. I was like, you know, I had blocked so much of it out that I was like, gosh,

I did kind of relive it all, you know. So that's a little bit of That's where kind of ambition comes from. I think if you are you know, especially I think a woman of color, or you know, even if there's something about you that's different, and you're in a community or a school or a group where you just don't feel like you belong, you're always kind of dreaming of getting out. And I think in many ways

that's where my ambition began. I think for a lot of people, it drives them maybe inward, like not to be quite as successful as you had been. You know, you said you thought about success being going to Yell law school. Did you think about success beyond that, Like, did you envision what a life would look like? Yeah, oh gosh see, I think so. You know, some of the greatest athletes in the world always had this moment

where it should have happened for them. They should have made that shot, they should have gotten on that team, they should have been the first NBA draft pick, and they didn't. And some of the greatest athletes always carry that chip on that shoulder, so I excel from having the chip on my shoulder, you know what I mean. So I always felt like, you know, for college, I had to go to the University of Illinois because my parents couldn't afford University of Michigan, which is where I

really wanted to go. You know, I never got into I finally got into yet law school after three times after trying, never won my congressional race or my public advocate race. So I have a lot of things right, and I wasn't gonna let motherhood be one of those things right where it was like I wanted to be a mom and I didn't have an easy pathway there. And so I am definitely the girl who has her back up against the wall. The thing that I feel like I've earned or I deserve or I have worked

really hard for doesn't happen for me. You know. I think a lot of people don't realize that, you know, as they're like reading my resume, but it's very true for me. And I think for me that creates it's okay, I'm going to show you all right, cool, like don't let me in like a drive one hundred percent one hundred percent. So you graduated ye law school and suddenly found yourself on Wall Street. Yeah, New York City. I had three hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt bush

quote quote, I'm putting quotes. One. We all thought, yeah, we're all going to the DOJ. That didn't happen. So I guess it was Davis Polk, you know, And I'm now a corporate lawyer, you know, working in New York City. I was, I was naive. I knew I loved my first Martin when I was thirteen. I knew that I wanted to be a public servant. I always thought I would run for office, and I thought that maybe I would go back to Chicago and do that. But I

found myself in and I loved New York City. So I found myself in the city that I loved with a hell of a lot of debt, a really big paycheck, and I never really did the math, you know what I mean of like, well, actually, you know, it looks like you can make some dent, but you're just me paying off your interest and so so I naively just thought that I would like live New York fun life and make a little bit of money and pay off my dad and then maybe in a couple of years

and I'll just I'll go then run for office and be a public servant. And it just didn't play out that way. After her life in the fast lane, she finally decided it was time to run for office. I'm happy to welcome Resma Sojohnny to the program today. Her name may sound familiar to you. In twenty ten, she ran for Congress in New York City. In twenty twelve, I became an upstart in a New York City congressional race.

I swore I was going to win. I had the endorsement from the New York Daily News, the Wall Street Journals snapped pictures of me on election day, and CNBC called it one of the hottest races in the country. I mean, luc a lot of us, right, we were actively involved in politics, like Emily's List, DNC, we were organizing already. So you know, I'm thirty three years old. You know, Congress Maloney is talking about retiring. She was gonna run against Joel Brand Christen Joel Senator Jill Brand

for the Senate. There might be this open house seat. I'm in a job. I hated. I've reached my final For me, I don't, but I often make decisions by hitting rock bottom. So I'm really in this job that I hate. I haven't made all that progress on my debt. I'm literally just, you know, a little piece of me is just dying a little bit every day. And somebody probably was like, oh, there's this congressional seat and you should run, not really thinking that I would actually do it.

And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, and you know, I kind of work myself up into doing that, and I just kind of very quit, and I'm like, I'm in, and you know, I have a lot of people around me. I'm fair very blessed about this, who like support my crazy ideas and who are like, yes, run like and I'm you know, and so I just side I was gonna run. And now she decides she's not retiring and she's not running for Senate. But now I've already made this decision. And you know, Emily, back then in twenty ten,

no one challenged democratic primaries in the entire country. There was not one Democratic challenger. Now there's this woman in Rushmassa Johnny, who's thirty three years old, and she's doing what And I think because I didn't know any better and I wasn't part of the system. And as you know, we had this little whole crew of people that were kind of, you know again like progressive politics, wanted to change the world. We just thought we could like meet

every voter and shake every hand. In many ways, it's what Okazio did, you know ten years later, But my recent turnout the way that hers did. When Reshma decided to run for office, it was twenty ten, right on the heels of the two thousand and eight election of President Barack Obama and the passage of the Affordable Care Act, the country as a whole felt uneasy with change. I mean, I remember Geraldine Ferraro Oh called my finance director and

was like, she can't run. I mean, I had all these women who I admired who were just like not happy about it. I mean, I remember I went up to Glorious Steinem and She's like, why are you doing that? And that's where I read a book after that. You know, women don't wait in line, because it was I was constantly told it's not your turn. Wait in line, it's

not your turn. And here I was, again this brown girl you know, it's daughter of refugees who supposed to represent everything that we were talking about doing in this country, and I was constantly silenced. But then we had this group of like young up and comers who were like, go, go go. I mean, John Legend did a concert for me, you know, Jack Dorsey hosted an event for me, And at that time, both of them were just kind of building in their career, and I think we all saw

the same thing in one another. So it was it was just again so much courage of so many yourself included right, of so many people who were going against this SYS in this really powerful way. So we've alluded to it. You did not win the national not even closed crushed housed. In twenty ten, she ran for Congress in New York City but didn't win. In twenty thirteen, she ran in the Democratic primary for public Advocate, but lost in the crowded field that included Letitia James and

Daniel Squadron. Really bad. I was broke, I was humiliated. I felt ashamed. People felt sorry for me, and I'm one of those people I hate when people feel sorry for me. But on election day, the polls were right, and I only got nineteen percent of the vote, and the same papers that said I was a rising political star now said I wasted one point three million dollars on six thousand, three hundred and twenty one votes. Don't do the math. It was humiliating. It was not even closed.

It was and it was really sad because I really thought I was going to win, you know, I really did, because this is what happens. It's like you're on in the subway stop and people like I thought it for you, and finally it feels like everyone's wow, everyone's voting for me, Like this is happening. And I just thought I could meet every hand and shake every voter, and I just didn't realize. And We've got a lot of attention, a

lot of press. I'd raised more than enough money, but you just can't beat the machine, especially in New York City. It's really hard. But I also made a lot of mistakes. I was so not comfortable being a candidate. It was just the way I dressed, like the what I said, and I just wasn't it wasn't the same. I wasn't the same person I am today, And so that was a very it was a really amazing experience because I

learned so much. I feel like listening to you talk about it now, people will be surprised to find out the next thing you did was run for off as a guy. Yes, because that's what happens right when you're like because I you know, afterwards, I'm crushed, but I'm not crush crushed, like I'm like, Okay, I did that wrong. I did that wrong. I wouldn't have hired that person. I would have done this. I can do it again. Now I know how to win. I run again. I lose again. That they did you win? I run again.

I losse again. And let me tell you the first time I ran, I didn't cry on election day, and I would argue that in many ways. I got over it pretty quickly because I was ready for the next race. I had like like an ambitious type a woman. I was like, okay, I know what I did wrong, and now I know what's to right. And then on my second race, I was like, oh gosh, they just don't want me. They just don't want to vote for me. Because I had run a perfect campaign. I had no regrets.

I was me just like I am now. I you know, had understood, you know I knew who to hire, who not to hire. I knew who was lying to me, who wasn't lying to me, and they just didn't vote for me. And that was just crushing because it was literally, since I was thirteen, all I've wanted to do, who is serve in public office? And it was this realization then at thirty six or you know whatever, that oh this is this might not happen in my lifetime. How

did that feel? It felt really rough. Also, I had a lot of you know, I had a miscarriage right in the beginning of it, So there was just a lot. There's a lot that happened in a lot of heart that I had put into it, and so I think it was just I think, yeah, it was devastating. It was really devastating. It's still very devastating in some ways. The second one was much harder, much harder. Maybe I got more votes, I got more votes, you know, I was again, had no regrets. It didn't one would argue.

In many ways it helped my career afterwards. I didn't have a lot of enemies. I had people who kind of supported me afterwards, but it was a little bit like, oh, this might not happen for me in this lifetime. So you mentioned that you had beennant and then lost that pregnancy on that race was running for office, lining up with you thinking about beginning a family. Yeah, because I

mean I write a by this. I thought I was gonna be like the you know, Rosie the Riveter pregnant on the campaign trail, and the vision of it was just so perfect, and so it just yeah, it was never again. I had also lined everything up that I thought the baby, if I had a baby, you know, in this moment, it would just be, you know again, part of the story, not not get in the way of it. She'd always seen herself as a mom, but she was also socialized to believe that being a mom

needed to be done in secret. I always wanted to be a mom. I like lived with stuffed animals all surrounded around me. I was obsessed with my cabbage patch kid doll. I loved babies, always, always, always, always desperately wanted to be a mom. I got pregnant while I'm like, you know again, about to launch my campaign, and I'm and get married, Oh my god, and I'm like this is great. I'm not like, oh shit, you know, this is not good. This is not good timing. I was

not worried about it. I was actually excited about it. You know, being a candidate is physically very grueling, very grueling. Was it something that you took into consideration once you found out you were pregnant. No, I was just like naive and you know, listen to you know, and then I, you know, miscarried within twelve or thirteen weeks. So the dream was very small, you know what I meant, It didn't last long enough. But I think that I yeah, no, I think I think I thought we could all handle it.

But also it's because like listen, I think, I think I've learned so much about the way people's bodies have to be built in order to carry pregnancies and carrie, you know, whatever they're doing physically, like my surguit. Amber is just physically, like meant, her body is just so she can be you know, an ear nurse and be on her feet as she was when she carried SI all night long and with the baby, and she's good, right.

I never could do that, and when I was pretty much on bed rest by the time I had shot. You know, did it change your vision of yourself as the candidate. Did you think that you could still run? I mean, you clearly kept running, But did you mean after I miscarried? Yeah, did it change your vision of yourself in the role? You know? I think it did.

I think in many ways it started what became a bad habit of being able to compartmentalize pregnancy loss with what was happening in my life, and so it became the beginning of many miscarriages that happened alongside many professional moments. The irony of the situation could not be more stark. Reshma did her TED talk titled Teach Girl's Bravery not Perfection. It's a powerful speech, but in contrast to her personal story, it's heartbreaking. The image of the girl boss Reshma had

carefully constructed in her head slowly began to frack. Sure, no one talked about it, so I didn't really have anyone to talk to about it. No one said to me, Hey, you probably shouldn't go make that speech after you just walked out of the doctor's office and didn't have a heartbeat, because I think there's so much shame and silence around you. It's so amazing today that we would talk about getting

days off to grieve once you have a miscarriage. That was not at all part of even the conversation or of what people did. So in many ways, one I think I thought that that was just the price of motherhood, of wanting to be a mom, of wanting of being a boss, a girl boss, that like, shit happens and it sucks, but you got to keep on moving and how unhealthy and it. Ironically, it wasn't until after I had my kid that I looked back at that period of my life and I was like, oh, I was depressed.

It's why I didn't go out, It's why I was up and down in terms of my weight, It's why I was sad, you know, It's why I was just performing in many ways. And it wasn't until the same things started happening with before my second then I started crying all the time. And then I was like, okay, Like, but I didn't, you know, it took me a while to for it emotionally to break me in the way

that it should have very early on. And you know, look, I don't think I had someone It's my fault because I never really, I never really told anybody that I was in my closest friends. I wasn't like I'm going through all this, it would just make it didn't work out, and okay, what are we having for dinner? But you kept driving professionally, I mean even through this time. After you lost that public advocate race, you went on to

build this incredible nonprofit, Girls Who Code. Yeah, yeah, I mean I lose the race, and I'm like, okay, then I'm going to show you. You're not going to let me to be a public advocate to teach you know, hundreds of thousands of millions of New York City public school kids to code. Then I'm going to make Girls who Code. At that time, we were really small, you know, we taught like a handful of girls. I'm going to make Girls who Code the largest nun profit in the world,

teach millions of girls. And then put my head down and I did. Tired of ads interrupting your gripping investigations. Good news, AD free listening on Amazon Music is included with your Prime membership. Ads shouldn't be the scariest thing about true crime. Just head to Amazon dot com slash ad free true Crime to catch up on the latest episodes without the ad. Shows At three for Punch scriptions. Some shows me that ready to disrupt your industry without

disrupting your flow. The LEV Evening NBA program at Santa Clara University could be the perfect fit. The LEV School of Business is where you'll reach new heights without compromising your current career. You'll meet your part time NBA cohor two evenings per week on Lev's campus in the very heart of Silicon Valley, where innovation and creativity thrive. Join Silicon Valley's premiere part Time MBA program for working professionals.

Search LEV Evening MBA to discover more. Girls who Code went on to serve over five hundred thousand girls, women, and non binary students, creating one of the largest pipelines for future females and engineering. What many don't know is that before she hit the ground running with Girls Who Code, she had the opportunity to move into a senior position in the New York City Mayor's office. This was finally her opportunity to fulfill her lifetime goal of working in

public service that she had dreamed of. But she said no, and she pivoted into something new, leaving behind her work in politics. Yeah, no, I didn't want to do that. I wanted to build, you know, I really was, I really wanted to build the organization. And I put my head down, you know, for years and just learned how to be a CEO, worked on having a baby, you know, and and just just grind it every single day. Twenty twelve, you started it, thirty thousand plus graduates in the program.

Is it true that you didn't know how to code when you started it? Now I'm like the weirdest person to start Girls Who Code. Girls Who Code has proven time and time again that we're about more than just teaching girls and non binary students how to code. We are growing a movement of over four hundred and fifty thousand students served now and counting. Founder of CEO of Girls Who Code. Thank you, thank you, Thank you for But through it all, Reshmus still continued to struggle with

her fertility. So yeah, I would I would go. I'd have a miscarriage and then I'd be on stage with introducing Obama Smile, Small Spell. You know. I would have another miskcarriage and then I would be there. I was in Utah with six of our girls Small Spell Spell, And so I don't think that the closest even my even my team, you know, never really knew kind of the again, my private hell that was happening behind thee

So it was very, very very unhealthy. I remember one time I was doing I hadn't miscarried yet, but I knew I was going to, and I was taping something in Washington, one of the big morning shows, and I was in the green room with I think, again I don't want to out her, but a very prominent young lawyer of a very prominent case that it ignited the Black Lives Matter movement, and somehow we started talking and she too had just had a miscarriage, and we were saying, like,

how sick it was in many ways that we were both sitting there, me not having miscarried yet, but about you in any second getting our hair and makeup done, because in many ways we were both social activist. And I think it's doubly worse. You're a woman who you think you have to just show up when trauma happens to you, and then you're fighting for justice, so you think that you also the fight never ends, so you just have to you know, for me, it was for

the girls. For her was young black boys were being killed, and so you know that, like wow, and what did that really say about who we were? Because in some ways you would turn around and be like, what's wrong with me? You know, like this is not normal. But again again now going by you with the work that I'm doing now, I attribute all of that to girl

bloss culture. It's like we have been told over and over and over again by the senior, by women in our life that are that this is the price you have to pay, that this is what the cost is, and that I did it, you do it, and that no one ever said no, that's not right. Did you when you were envisioning being successful and getting out and establishing yourself, was it part of the vision, Like how

did you envision that? No? No, I feel like I had built everything around motherhood, not getting my way of my ambition of the thing that I wanted to achieve, and I never really loved the identity Like I remember, you know you could appreciate this, like you know girls who code after become mom my Team's like great, you should be like one of those cool mom bloggers. And I'm like, no fucking way, no right, Like I wouldn't

even put on a pair of mom jeans. I was like I am not, that's not my identity, because I think that there was a lot of like being a mom is not sexy, not cool, was not respected. Right, It's the way many people, like many people have always hid that piece of their identa at least we've been taught that as young women, right to hide that piece of your identity. And so I think it was something I desperately wanted, but I also kind of wanted to hide.

So did your vision of yourself and your professional self and your professional ambition. Do you think that your vision of yourself and where you were growing changed once you did have your first son? Yes, well, because then I realized, oh my god, like you know, because I was just I was just angry, and for most of that time, you know, it's like why is this happening to me?

Angry that seemed like it was so much easier for other women, you know, Angry that like like this wasn't supposed to be my story, Angry that I never got to really Enjoynancy in the entire journey, and just angry that I just I couldn't ever really share it. And there were times too that I would try to share it. When a reporter was interviewing me about, like, you know whatever, writing a profile, and they'd never write about it, never

write about your anger. They'd never write about when they say, what's your biggest struggle that you've ever had? And I was like, well, it's been really hard having you know, a baby, and I've had a miscarriageter too. Never write about that. They never probed about that. Now that's shifted, but I tried, you know, to kind of put it out there a little bit. Still, despite the countless mommy blogs, influencers and podcasts, the conversations around getting pregnant, miscarriages, and

surrogacy are seen as uncomfortable to talk about. It's like you rather tell someone you have cancer than say that you had a miscarriage. People don't know how to react, especially back then, when someone tells you that, and it's really it makes them feel really, really uncomfortable. And I think it goes back to the fact that we have this archetype that it's so easy to get, to get pregnant and to keep a baby, and so it's almost like, way,

what's wrong with you that you couldn't do that. So I think after I had Sean, I think I was able to look back and be like, oh, whoa, there was a lot, and to start to unravel that with my therapist, you know, with family, with friends, you know, and say, you know, I was not dealing with my mental health issues. You know that I was facing from the trauma of all the pregnancy losses. And then when I tried to do my second, I wasn't much better.

Went back to the all the old bad habits until I had this one loss, maybe my second, my second loss would sigh before I had my baby or second or third loss, second loss where you know, I was in California, and you know, we think the embryo takes I'm sure everyone who knows who's gone through this HGG levels going up before it's going down, you know, get

the call it. What was then four in the morning because it was seven am in New York, being like, you know, there's no there's no heartbeat, it's not going up. And then I have to hop on a flight at eleven o'clock or ten o'clock to go to Utah because we were announcing the US partnership with the Governor of Utah with a room full of seven hundred girls. Now mind you, I have been desperate to help a little girl,

you know, and this was supposed to be it. And you know, I remember my husband saying, you don't have to go, and I was like, no, no, no no, I have to go. And I go, you know, and I look back at those pictures and it's just like I have to do the whole thing with the governor, do the green room, do the photos, Da da da da. And then you know, I just got back and I was just off and everybody I was just being I

was just not you know, I was angry. You know, I was angry with my team and you know, now my new CEO member, Treek, every being like what's wrong. And then I just convened everybody and I was just cried. I and I said, guys, I just can't do this anymore. I need a break. I need to heal. I need to focus on what I need to do to have my next baby. After years of fertility treatments, IVF and more, she decided she wanted to try one last time. At

this time now I'm forty three. I'm forty three, I'm forty three, and it's my last shot, you know, to get those embryos right. And my doctor is amazing. And so I said to my husband, I was I was going to be done. And then we meet this couple and this woman says, essentially like, my one regret is that I just didn't try one more time. And I basically, you know, come back and I, you know, say to my husband and my doctor, I want to try again, and they're like, you just can't because at this point

it's just physically I have autoimmune issues. It's just you know, blood clots, blah blah blahlah blah. It's just not and I'm not I'm forty three, right, And so they were basically like, Okay, we'll let you try, but you can't carry the baby. Had that been something you'd ever considered before. No, Because superpower Rashma wanted to basically show everybody that I

could do it, you know, myself more than anybody. But then I was like, okay, I will not try to put my body through this anymore and sacrifice my life. And I will and of course do my IVF cycle, and at forty three, I get these four beautiful, healthy embryos, of which one is now my son. But it was this really you know, incredible lesson of just letting go, you know, first letting go of having to have this trauma and holding it on my own, letting go of the fact that maybe my body is not built to

carry a baby, and that is okay. But I think it's also for me a story of like I never give up, and I tell people all this time because

now it's so beautiful. And I think part of why I share this too is like, literally I probably coach for five six families women a week who just DM me on Instagram who are going through their fertility struggles and because you know, I didn't have that, and so I want people to have someone that, even if it's a stranger, you know that they DM on LinkedIn or Instagram, that can be there. But I always say to people, like, if you want to become a mother, you will become one.

It may not be in the way that you think it's going to be, but you know you can. And I think this goes to probably the end, which is why it's so I think COVID was such an eye opener for me, and just again the fact that I had been building and grinding and building and grinding and never really seeing my kids, that I had worked so hard to actually see because I had again bought into this culture that like, that's a sacrifice that you pay to be a working mom. So your new book pay Up, Yeah,

really gets to the heart of this. It's not we can't grind our way out of it. Yeah, we can't grind our way out of it. And the fact that like, we don't have to hide from our dead. I mean, I wanted so desperately to be a mother, and then when I was a mother, I let culture take that away from me. I let workplaces take that away from I let the government basically say you got no support for doing that. I want to pause here because I

think it's important to highlight this pivot. I think it's a moment that many of us have been slowly realizing that we just can't have it all. And even for someone like Reshma, who's such a fierce advocate for women, it took years for her to fully understand this, and despite the gut wrenching loss of each pregnancy, she still felt it necessary to push further and harder in her

career until she broke. And I think the whole point is where it's being given a false choice and that we all think it's just like I thought it was my personal problem that I had to basically fix and solve and I didn't need any support or help from anybody. I was wrong here. I think so many moms think, well, it's my problem. If I'm not able to balance my

job and my care taking responsibilities, it's my problem. If my husband is not doing his part, it's my problem, right if my employer doesn't you know, no, it's not it's not you. There's nothing wrong with you. There's something wrong with the system. And the whole idea of trying to fix the system and not fix the woman. I mean everything, Emily, everything we read and again these are from women I admire and I was one of them, you know, from Confidence Code to Lean Into, like every

single women's leadership book is about fixing you. And that's why women come to us and say, I have imposter syndrome. What do I do? I don't have confidence? What should I do? And it's like, no, no, no no, there's nothing wrong with you. There's something wrong with the system, with

the structure. And so it's kind of wild because we need to have a radically different we need to have a radically different conversation than we are having, you know, in workplaces in government, which is all about the fact of why do we make it so damn hard for working women and parents? We really haven't reconciled those two personalities that you were saying, the two archetypes of the working woman and the mom. We don't know how to

do it. And one of the mentors that I know that you have among the people that you mentioned is Secretary Hillary Clinton, who in many ways ended up embodying or taking on the anger that a lot of women who didn't feel like they had choices, they projected it onto her. Yeap, what are some of the conversations you have with her around the changing the culture that you've

written about in Pay Up? Yeah, I mean, I think in many ways it's like they she struggled with that, and I think she the way she led as a mother and a leader is still the example for us. She never tried, She never hid Chelsea. She really not, you know what I mean, if you really think about it, she never hit Chelsea, and she never hid being a mom.

If you look at her Twitter profile or her Instagram profile, the first word on the top is mother, grandmother, So you know, Secretary Clin has always been ahead of her times, and this is another example of that. But I think she's always also recognized how hard it is society makes it for women, and that we do have this once in a lifetime. She said to me, She's like, don't say, you know, please and thank you. Fight fight, fight, fight, Like,

this is the moment with a great resignation. This is the moment with all of you know, the seller's market, in the tight labor market for women to say enough enough, we're not breastfeeding in closets. You know, don't freeze my eggs, but pay for me to freeze my eggs, but don't pay for my childcare. You know, don't stop pushing back on flexibility and remote working when I've already proven that

I can be productive, you know, with caretaking responsibilities. So I feel like she's always been at the forefront of this fight. You know, there's some women I won't name names, you know, who have never used their platform to elevate this issue, and in fact, you have done quite the opposite. Whereas you know, Sexuary clans always used her platform to elevate this issue. Always, She's always led with her motherhood before it was cool, like so many other women. Reshma

was crushed by the pandemic. After her long struggle with infertility, she finally had the baby through surrogacy, and then COVID hit like a ton of bricks. The team pandemic has created a significant shift in the workforce. We've talked about it a lot, but the great resignation, differing childcare needs, work from home flexibility. Well, now a new survey reported here first by NBC News this morning, is showing the specific impact on women and the fact that working women

are experiencing a burnout epidemics. I mean, COVID crushed me like COVID crushed me. I you know, started the pandemic with girls, you know, Super Bowl ad. I was having my newborn baby, you know, and then COVID came around. And now here I am locked in the house my partner, I'm doing all the dishes and the laundry. I'm taking care of a newborn. I'm homeschooling, you know, a seven year old. I'm running the largest women and girls nonprofit in the world, and that's almost on the brink of

potentially being shut down. And I'm I'm freaking, I got nothing. It's just it's breaking me and my entire leadership team

are working homs and we're all just drowning. And you know, I just I saw clearly the issue that I didn't see, Like, how could I have not had seen this, this kind of again, this fact that we have been doing two and a half jobs the whole time, and that I had bought into this thing, that we were even had a shot at equality if we just got a mentor if we just color coded our calendar, if we just raised our hands more without thinking what we wanted to say, if we were just braver and none of all of

that was like this what I called the big lie of corporate feminism. And I had been selling it like I had been selling it, dishing it out. And this has really been your mission. You have for so long said young women and girls, you should be brave, you should lean in, you should work harder. You wrote a best selling book about this. Brave not perfect, of course, your ted talk. We've all watched it. But now you're

saying pandemic madeor rethink this. Yeah, I mean, for the past decade, I told girls to barnstorm the corner office, lean in, real hard, girl boss your way to the top, and I was wrong. It was so easy for many of us to fall into this big lie, and even easier to feel guilt when things didn't pan out as we were promised. Rushma saw the problem and the guilt being placed on women individually, and she now argues that

the problem is systemic. Her work now centers around this fight for culture change with the Marshall Plan for Moms. The ultimate pivot is not just changing your career, but it's changing your mindset, confronting the movement and choosing to live your life guilt free. I live life, and I don't feel I used to feel guilty about living life. You know what I'm talking about it. I know you're

shaking your eyes. Yes, yes, yes, And it's like and it's funny because I used to always look at my husband, who is equally ambitious, equally successful, and he never did and a lot of men don't, but we do as women, and so I don't want to live like that anymore. I'm not living like that anymore, Rashma. Unfortunately we're out of time. I could stay here literally all day and talk to you. This has been inspiring, informative, fun maybe even dare I say thank you? So much for joining us.

Thank you. Reshma is still working on advocating for mothers through her organization, The Marshall Plan for Moms and with her book Pay Up. The Marshall Plan for Moms advocates for women's unpaid labor in the home and aims to transform our workplaces, government and our culture to enable moms to thrive. Thank you for listening to this episode of she Pivots, where I talk with women about how their experiences and significant personal events led to their pivot and

eventually their success. To learn more about Reshma and her latest book, follow us on Instagram at she Pivots the podcast. Leave a rating and comment if you enjoyed this episode to help others learn about it. A special thank you to our partner Marie Clair and the team that made this episode possible. Talk to you next week. Tired of ads interrupting your gripping investigations, Good news. AD free listening on Amazon Music is included with your Prime membership. Ads

shouldn't be the scariest thing about true crime. Just head to Amazon dot com slash ad free true Crime to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Shows. A free for Punch descriptions. Some shows me have that ready to disrupt your industry without disrupting your flow. The LEV Evening NBA program at Santa Clara University could be the perfect fit. The LEV School of Business is where

you'll reach new heights without compromising your current career. You'll meet your part time NBA cohort two evenings per week on Lev's campus in the very heart of Silicon Valley, where innovation and creativity thrive. Join Silicon Valley's premiere part Time MBA program for working professionals. Search Lev Evening MBA to discover more. If you're a Shark Tank fan or business junkie, check out the podcast Another Bytes. Each week, Another Bite breaks down the biggest success stories and most

disastrous failures to come out of Shark Tank. The hosts break down each company's pitch, analyze the deals that were or weren't made, and answer the million dollar question are they still a company? Whether you're an entrepreneur looking for tips or a Shark Tank fan that just wants to relive the drama, Another bites your deep dive into the world of Shark Tank. Just search for Another Bite in your favorite podcast app like the one you're listening to right now,