Kaitlyn Joshua: How a Miscarriage Fueled a Movement

a before and an after. For Caitlyn Joshua, that moment came in an emergency room in Louisiana where, despite suffering a miscarriage, she was turned away not once twice. This is the horrifying reality millions of women have to deal with in America today. And three years after Roeph Wade was overturned, as more and more stories are coming out of women suffering because of the restrictive laws and doctors withholding care because of confusion around these laws, felt important

to share Caitlyn's story. As a woman of faith, Caitlyn spent her career as a faith organizer, working to build community advocate for social justice, and build coalitions. Then, after the birth of her first daughter in twenty eighteen, Caitlyn and her husband started to plan to have their next baby when what she thought was a minor miscarriage turned into the most physically and mentally painful times of her life. She was turned away from the emergency room with a

prayer and directions to just take tylanl. Kitlyn will talk more about her experience in this episode, but just know that it took her two months to pass her miscarriage, two months without any medical help. Because of her background, Caitlyn was able to understand that what happened to her wasn't just a one off. It was a result of the recent policy changes to limit reproductive access, and it

lit a fire that has fueled her ever since. Caitlyn used her experience as an organizer and hit the ground running, sharing the most intimate and difficult details of her story to help change hearts and minds and build public support

for reproductive freedom. Last year alone, Caitlyn was named one of Glamour's Women of the Year, launched Abortion in America, an organization that she co created with the late Cecil Richards, and went on the road with the Harris Walls presidential campaign, and throughout it all her work has been rooted in her personal story. I want to thank Caitlin for coming on and sharing her most vulnerable story. As a mother myself, I know how scary pregnancy can be, and no woman

should have to endure what Caitlyn went through. I hope in sharing her story we can start to shift the narrative and change harmful policies that are in place across the country. Let's jump in.

And to be clear, I'm thirty two years old and my parents are from Baton Rouge Episodically this part of Baton Rouge called Scotlandville, which is North Baton Rouge's a pretty predominantly black part of town. They grew up on the same street and literally that's how they met when they were thirteen years old and went to schooled together, college together, and then had us And I say us, I have a twin sister. She her name was Angel.

She's a medical doctor in New Orleans. But we were born in nineteen ninety two, and so my parents left, you know, kind of decided to settle in Southeast battle Rouge just because it was at that time it was kind of booming in terms of economic boom, and school systems were kind of a hot topic at the time, as we were kind of the longest I believe, decid order in the United States, and so it took us a while to get like that diversity piece within our

school systems. And so my parents are very intentional about raising us in South end Rouge, and they still live there today and I'm not too too far from them. But so essentially family is pretty much like our world, right Like we always make the joke that like everybody kind of calls Louisiana the big magnet, right like, it's we know we want to leave because the political landscape sucks, to be quite honest. But we have family here, our cultures here in terms of raising our kids in the South.

And I actually met my husband at Southern University, where I went to college. We also worked together at a hotel in vat Rouge, and so that was nine years ago. We worked together and I remember started doing his physics homework and that's how he fell in love with me. And soon after that, seven years ago, we got married. Had my daughter not too long after that, and she's six. And then fast forward to now where I'm kind of literally yanking my kids left and right to do the

work that I do, which is organizing. We had our son a year and a half year one point five years ago, excuse me, and have just been, you know, enjoying teaching them the importance of this moment. And I probably referenced that a lot in this podcast, just like helping my kids understand, you know, what is a rally, what is a protest? Like helping them stay involved and seeing their mom and the fight is very important to me.

And what's so interesting and the reason why I said pro choice always, I guess like, as a young black woman, you know that considers herself very progressive, Like for me, it was a given, and even my very staunchly Christian parents have always raised us to be pro choice, like through the lens of or like helping us understand that a woman's decision is hers and it's not your business, right, like very much helping us understand at a very young age that it is not for us to decide how

someone wants to live their lives or the decisions that they make with their medical providers are not our own. And so even though I still consider myself a Christian, I take my kids to church every single Sunday. I also help them understand that reproductive health care is an important facet in a woman's life and a family's lives. And I've always been so grateful for my parents also setting that tone for us.

both my mom's side and my dad's. But for the most part, I was inspired by a set of tins actually that were amazing role models in the community in baund Rouge, black women who went on to have their own private practice, and I'd followed them for the entirety of my childhood and into adolescents, and so I really aspired to be like them until this day, have a really good relationship with both of them. With me having a twin sister, I was like, we should be like them,

you know. And so I think what was so aspirational about the two of them is it was kind of at a time where Louisiana did not have a ton of obi guides or just women in healthcare at all, specifically Black women in healthcare and so it was kind of twenty years ago, twenty almost thirty years ago in which we kind of saw like a real trend or intentionality behind medical schools supporting different initiatives to be able to get more women of color in their programs. And

we got to see that firsthand. And of course now I'm proud to say there are way more women of color that are doing their thing, matriculating through medical school and going on to have private practice and stay in Louisiana, which is really cool. But at the time, it wasn't often that you would see women of color in medicine, and so for me that was kind of like a

sign that I should be doing something like that. And I've always had a really big interest in science and was really good at it, got straight a's, never missed a science robotics class or meeting, always joined clubs like I was obsessed with science, still am, which definitely benefits my sex yerol now that she has science homework. But I've always just really wanted to be in that realm, in that realm of medicine. Can you talk us through the change?

the intricacies and complexities of a medical office. And for me, it was if I could be quite frank like, very white patriarchal in a lot of ways, and I did. I was like, Okay, I'm not I can't sign up for this. I can't do that. And even though you know, I didn't go on to attend or finish medical school, and watching my sister navigate those complexities, and just like the inherent biases implicit biases within the medical school system, I knew that I made the right decision for myself.

And just from the time that I witnessed it in Houston and then watching my sister like cry all the time and get upset and frustrated when different kind of racial undertones would happen. Within her medical school and how she had to combat that on a daily basis. I knew that it was not good for her mental health. All in all, she did successfully graduate, which was wonderful, but I knew that I had made the right decision for my life not to deal with that.

like six months or seven months. I had my husband Maui's my fiance at the time, moved me back to Louisiana by summer of twenty seventeen, and that is when I decided to go out on a limb and get a job at a law firm. Did feel big?

don't have freedom. And so I lived with my parents, and I mean I was I graduated little late twenty three, almost twenty four, and to be almost twenty four years old and not have like the full autonomy over your life or what you want to do, over your schedule, parents calling you at midnight asking where you are. So I wanted to experience life beyond my parents' house. And so I took the summer of twenty seventeen and through twenty eighteen to be able to do that. It definitely

raised some help. My parents were not thrilled that I was, you know, seeking another path, and I was like, you're going to be broke. So she you know, she was really disappointed that I spent so much of my time in my life being committed to the cause and committed to to you know, going to medical school and then at the very last second deciding that was no longer the path for me. And she even tried to convince me, what about nursing or PA, like, you don't have to

like completely sit out of all of it. There surely has to be a path for you. And my sister was very supportive though, which was really weird, Like I thought she'd be the most upset, but it was definitely my mom and my dad. It was really hard telling my dad as he had bragged all of his frat brothers and family members that he was going to have medical doctors for you know, his tones were going to be medical physicians and we take care of him well into his old age and all the things, and so

he was really hurt. And it wasn't until I you know, kind of showed them that, you know, organizing is a career, you can do it and have you know, a lucrative career and be able to make money and so you know, keep the lights on that they finally believe that I can make it something tangible. So what did you say?

all the time. So it's a pretty unique position. But so funny that you asked me that my daughter just did an interview for first grade and she asked me, mommy, what do you do for a living. I was like, I'm a political organizer and she said, well, what is that? What does it do? And had to explain to her what a political organizer is and the roles and responsibilities. And I also remember saying like, do I want my kid to go to school with this on a paper?

But just in terms of safety, et cetera. But you know, in all in essence, I would say organizers are responsible for civil rights movement, any movement that you can think of that is working to try and impact change.

And so, while I do take my kids to church every Sunday, my husband does a men's group once a month at church on Mondays, and then I'll go to Ladies Night on Wednesday sometimes because for us. It's about like filling our cup, especially right now when things beings are so quite honestly, and you're just trying to figure

out how to make it through the day. Like I do look to my faith to being a part of that, you know, restoring of hope and restoring of being able to kind of get through day to day with my kids.

And so, yeah, to answer your question, still very much are involved in the church, but I also was very intentional about where I chose to be involved, as my pastor is so progressive and really supports the work that I do, and like not just like supports it silently, but shares that with the church on Sunday morning, like the work that we're doing in the reproductive space through the lens of black maternal health care, abortion care, whatever

you want to call it. I make sure that the people that I surround myself with and my kids are constantly engaging with people that are progressive in a faith.

every day, what he's going to see. And there have been churches that have been very vocal about, you know, Kamala Harris, you know, when I was on the campaign trail, being aligned with you know, the devil or not supporting Christian values. And I've had to turn my back from those churches or make sure that my kids are not involved with folks that attend there, or just be thinking of over the years when I was in college, like trying out different churches, trying to figure out where I belonged.

You know, if there was a message around anti LGBTQ rights, I would make sure that I was not back on that Sunday right the next Sunday. And so I've had to walk away from quite a few congregations, which I'm grateful for in a way because it led me to the church that I've been at for the last five six years.

And it wasn't working out with other people, And so Blannon finally asked me out at his grandma's house, like eight years ago and we've been together ever since, and so literally a year to date after that, he asked me to marry him. Here after that, we had our daughter. Wait, we need to pause a second. Here, a grandma's house is not traditionally the most romantic. Oh my god, it's not. It's not. And what's so sad? Is? And yes, Slata

and I'm putting you on blast. Not only did he ask me out at my grandma's house, at his grandma's house, excuse me? Love her? Like love her so much, but he asked me to marry him in the parking lot of my parents' house. So I was like, really, dude, like you can switch it up. Okay, we need both stories we need can we please start with you Grandma? So after he I'll never forget it was a Sunday because it was a Saints game and we're New Orleans

Saints fans. We think we're still New Orleans Saints fans and at the time we were going to a game and we are. We just come back from the game, and this was after this dude literally rolled up to the ATM. He was so nervous about the date, like he took out he thought he took out cash the ATM. He left the cash in the ATM. We get all the way to the New Orleans Saints game, have no money. Thank god I had my cards, but I was like, oh, capital want and tell them you left the money in

the ATM. And thank god they reimbursed him because I guess they saw on camera that he really did roll up leave money in the ATM. We go to the game. It was amazing. Remember we won. Went out to eat afterwards with a couple of a friend of ours that are couple and got back to his grandma's house and he's like, oh, you know, we've been hanging out for years, and you know now we're both single. We should date, can you know? Which mean my girlfriend? And I remember

your grandma's inside them all. He's right there, she's probably looking at us through the window, and so I remember telling him yes, and literally it was the most fun i'd had that year. We just, oh god, we just had such an easy relationship. And I'll say, to date, our relationship is just so easy. Maybe that's weird to a lot of people because they're like, how do y'all do it? Like you just and then you pop kids

into the picture. But literally a year later, he asked me to marry him at my parents' house, and it was not romantic at all, Like it was pitch black outside. I don't even remember seeing him, and I remember him like getting on one knee, asked me to marry him. My parents claim they had no idea inside, but I know that he had asked them permission. And then we go inside, we announce to them that we're engaged, and then he leaves and goes to work. So I was like,

what in the world is wrong with you? Like he he's never a planner. I have to do all the planning. And so he literally, after thirty minutes of asking me to marry him, he whisp off to At the time, he was working for a gas station chain and went there to go to work. And I was like, okay, Lan, so that's kind of like the summary of our relationship and it's always we random, yeah, And then had you always wanted kids because you did have your daughter quite young?

I had my daughter quite young, and I did not want kids. I did not I had no intentions on being a mom. And I would even sell my brother in law, my sister in law, who's my husband's brother. You know, I'm so glad you all have kids because I don't want kids, you know. And ended up pregnant with Lauren, and I remember thinking I do not want kids, and I honestly tried to convince him like are we sure, we you know, want to do this, Like there's a lot,

We're signing up for a lot. And I remember spending months like are you sure? Are you sure? And so so glad that we kept her. She's a cool kid. I like her, but at the time I had no intentions on being a mother, and was really glad that my kind of like mother instincts kicked in, because I was so concerned that it wouldn't. But I loved the freedom of just being married, you know, and the freedom of just kind of deciding when I want to go

where I want to go. And so I always sell my younger cousin that don't have kids yet, like, make sure that's really what you want to do, Like it really is a life change you're signing up for, no regrets. Lauren's six now and is vibrant and sassy and so southern, and so it works out great. But it took me a minute to really for that to really resonate. I remember the when the nurse had told me six and a half years ago, oh, you're going to be mom, and wait, so you found out at a doctor's I didn't.

I found out at a doctor's office. I had been having terrible pains, couldn't explain it. That had gone on for about two three weeks, and finally I was like, oh my god, the hospital, like I think I'm having a kidney stone pass or something. And got there and the nurse walks in and she was like, Nope, You're going to be a mom, and she was smiling, and I was like, why are you smiling? Like are you

kidding me? Right now? Like I was so mad, so upset and had failed birth control and was just like so confused and frustrated, and Leanna was so excited about being a dad kind of was just like, we can do this. And I hadn't remember we had gone, quite honestly, gone back and forth on whether that was the right thing for us at that time. And by the way, that's basically exactly what happened to me.

I was like, I love my life, I love my freedom, and most importantly, I was obviously concerned about finances, right, Like we had the perfect salaries for two young kids that just got married, but adding a kid, I was just like, that is so expensive, and so I and of course I saw how my mom like literally shifted her career or her life, her goals for us and for my dad, and I just wasn't ready to do

anything like that. And I will honestly say one of my try not to admit this to myself, but one of my main reasons for not even pursuing medicine again was I was just like, well, I'm a mom now, so I guess I'll just stick with this career, you know. And that was a very that was a raw response for me, and I just I didn't really know how to wrestle with it. But kind of like similar to your situation, my husband was just ad amazed, just like,

we can do this, It's fine. And of course when you told his parents, then you've got that added pressure of other people saying like we can help you. And I'm like, okay, but you're not going to be in the house with us, like you know, we're not going to raise my kid for me. So and I very well knew, just like watching my family members with their kids that it was. It was a big change. And to your point, I was not ready for it, and I did not want to. I did not want to

be ready for it, right. I didn't want to be ready for it.

and it was still really hard. Yeah, And I can't imagine having to be in that position and having not made that choice having it forced upon me, because then I would also resent them and be a terrible mother. Yeah, and maybe unprepared for it. So it really solidified that position within me. Yeah, that's so good, and you know, I will be honest. We had actually like flown said Lanta because at the time, of course Louisiana, like people don't know this, but Louisiana has never been a place

where you could easily get abortion care. And so we had flown Atlanta, Georgia, and we were eating at a p of Changs and I like had every intention on having this abortion. And that is when Landon told me, well, if you don't want the baby, then just give it to me. And that was kind of like the final moment of us kind of like going back and forth

on this and constantly arguing about this baby. And I remember thinking, you know, it's my choice and if I want and looking back, like, especially because Georgia is such a you know, just as much a band state as Louisiana. Now I'm grateful that at least in that moment, like even though it was my husband pressuring me, I still knew I had a choice. I could very well just say no, dude, I'm not listening to you, but I'm grateful.

And my heart goes out to other people who don't have this choice, that it is forced upon them, because what does that do to your mental health?

I found out Aboutlauren at the doctor's office. Since I was used to having that personable relationship with my provider where I could just call and say, hey, this is happening, see me, you know. And so when I called to schedule that appointment and get seen right away, the medical assistant the scheduler told me right away, hey, we're not seeing people until twelve weeks. And I was not privy

to that answer. I never got that before, even with the previous miscarriages, where I wanted to call and just like check up on myself and make sure I was good, and I expressed my physician what was going on. It was always a really open relationship, like we were really good about checking with each other. My twin sister sees the same physician, so I would send word through him

her sometimes to be able to talk to him. And I didn't recognize this new kind of door being slammed in my face, if you will, where the scheduler was just like, he's not going to see you till twelve weeks, but you know, we can put you on the books. And so that was kind of like the begetting or kind of like foreshadowing my experience with that pregnancy.

you know, I didn't love the answer. I'd actually called a couple providers in the area to see if somebody else would say something different. So it's like, let me see if everybody else doing the same thing. And so finally my husband I made it home from work that evening and he said, look, if you're calling around town and everybody's saying the same thing, Caitlin, you might as well see the provider that you know and that you love and that you have a relationship with. So it's like, fine,

I'll put it on the books. I'll schedule it, and that's what I did. So unfortunately write it around ten weeks and six days. It was the day after my daughter's birthday party. So when I woke up that next morning and was covered in blood, like woke up in a pool of blood, was cramping like nothing I could

describe in words. And I always say, like, I've had two babies at this point, and the pain and severity of that situation does not you know, does not compare to even the labor and delivery that I have with my son and my daughter. Like it was just it was awful. And I decided to drive myself to a

hospital that was local to the area. They have a women's Assessment center is what it's called at most facilities, And so I went ahead and drove myself to that hospital and I called Land and in the car and ironically, I was on a zoom call. I was like, why the hell am I working? But I told my asse. I was like, I need to clock out and I need to handle something and I'll get back on when I can. And so I called Lane and I said, hey,

this is what's happening. I'll keep you posting. He's like, yeah, definitely. He was like, it's probably just stressed from a birthday party. You were, you know, kind of went crazy, was run around town getting all these different things. You should have took it easy, but was seen rather quickly. At that first hospital. The physician or the nurse practitioner on staff like brought me in to triage and you know, she's kind of checking the service and she's like, oh, your

service is still closed. Like even though you're bleeding pretty profusely, it doesn't mean that this pregnancy is no longer viable. Just like let's be hopeful. And she was like, it could be still a viable pregnancy. So I'm to send you over to the ultrasound tech. So get to the ultrasound tech, she said, nothing. I will never forget that.

Like literally, I'm just sitting in that room with her for thirty minutes looking at the ceiling, and she's not expressing what's going on, and of course like she's maneuvering the technology across the belly with the cold jel and not saying anything. And so I was a little discouraged

in that room. Went over to another room where they you know, kind of have like a little conference, if you will, with the patients, and so no respectationer walks over and she says, I can't really tell whether or not you're miscaring, And I said, well, what do you mean, Like it's pretty obvious if someone misc caring typically and understand like you've got to wait, you know, baby heart stop or can't you know, can't find fetal heart tones,

et cetera. But we had done all those things, so I wanted to get clarity and she said, well, I can't tell you if you're still pregnant or if this is a miscarriage. We're just gonna have to wait and see. And I said, well, each be able to express something, and she said no, but I'm praying for you. If things get worse, you're more than we going to come back and we can continue to check and see if you know, this is a viable pregnancy. But you know,

we're sending you home with prayers. And that stuck with me till this day that she, you know, kind of just like was avoiding eye contact. It was just like, we're sending you home with prayers and kind of looking at the floor and so you are you are bleeding and they are sending you home, yeah, bleeding in there. And I was like, and what world do people do this? You know? I just kept thinking that, like sending me

home to do what? And my discharge papers did not you know, give some type of care instructions or anything. It was just nothing. And I remember, you know, laying in the car and saying, well, she says she can't tell whether or not. He was like, what do you mean like this makes sense, and it's like, well, she said, she can't tell, we'll have to come back.

gets worse, if you're bleeding more, come back. So I drove myself home and ended up picking up my daughter a few hours later, picking it up from school, and you know, went to bed that evening and of course woke up the next morning and it was worse. The pain was worse, the amount of blood was significantly more. And at that point, you know, I saw a mother login can you take Lauren. She's like, I'm praying my mom my mother in law around It was like I'm

praying for you. She's a minister so I was like, okay, that's on brand. But she sent me out the door with you know, this time, you shouldn't go by yourself, like at least meet somebody out. I've got more, but you need to get with somebody. She's like, what if you lead out behind the wheel? Caitlin like, come on, no. So I called my mom, who didn't even know I was pregnant at the time. Now that I'm looking back, but I called my mom and she said, what do

you I mean your pregnant. I was like, well, I wasn't going to say anything till twelve weeks because you know, I was kind of nervous as I've had previous miscarriages. And she said, well, yeah, I'm there. I'm on the way. And so she met me at this second hospital and so did my husband. So I was like, okay, good,

I have two people with me to navigate this. And I remember, you know, walking into the emergency room because that's what I decided to walk into this time at a different hospital because I knew if I went back to the last one, I didn't want to deal with her praying for me again. So I walked in and

the security guard was like, oh, my god, whoa. And I'm sure he saw the amount of blood that I had all over my jeans, and of course I had changed before I got there, but didn't realize I'd led through these jeans again, and so are these different set of jeans. And so he put me in a wheelchair because it's just like this is way too much. We got to put you in a wheelchair. So put me in a wheelchair, rolls me to the back, and I got back there pretty quickly, didn't have any way time.

And the first person that came in was a nurse, and I remember the conversation that she and I had was absolutely riveting, like it was wild. My mom was standing there the whole time and was out in the hallway at this point, just kind of filling in his parents. And she she walks in and she's like, well, you know, people come in here miscaring all the time and they think it's so much blood and they're going to bleed out, and it's really not that bad. And she said that.

My mom was like, that is not comforting, Like what are you doing? And she was just like, well, you know a lot of times, like people misjudge the amount of blood that they are losing and it's you know, nothing to be alarmed about, like it's just a miscarriage potentially, and so my mom was like, oh, okay, well we'll just wait to hear from the physician. And ultrasound tech walks in after that, and he was so kind. I remember he said, you know, my wife and I have seven

children and we've had seven miscarriages. And I knew that he was trying to like make me feel better about what this probably was and like let me know I could try again, and so I appreciated, you know, his comments, but you know, he did said much more. How unlike the last ultrasoundtech that I'd seen the previous day, he was kind enough to just kind of engage with me

and try and keep me calm throughout. And a physician finally walks in, and I'm thinking she's going to be just so helpful and like, you know, provide some type of clarity and comfort or closure, and she walks in and she says, are you sure you were ever pregnant? And I said, what do you mean? I was like, I literally have not had my period in over eleven weeks, like I know that I'm pregnant. She said, well, no,

this just looks like a cist to me. And my mom was like, okay, this is ridiculous, like the My husband was like, what do you mean, like assist and she's like, well, it doesn't have a heartbeat anymore. And I remember asking her, well, if it doesn't have a heartbeat, then this is a miscarriage, and she was like, well, we can't tell, we don't know. And I said, well, look,

I've had miscarriages before. Can I please just get a DNC procedure or some type of medication abortion I should be able to get something like the pain is just unbearable. And she said no, we're not going to do that at this time. We're not doing that. And at this point, my sister's on FaceTime, Like I said, she was in med school at the time, and she said, kay, like they're not. She's not going to help you like these the laws are preventing her. She's not going to give

you the type of kid that you're asking for. Ask her what you should do, like what you should look out for, and so I did and she's like, well, you can take talent a I was like, ma'am, I've been taking town all for four days I need something else, Like tilen all is not you know, making me, it's not releaving any type of pain. And so she said, look, we're not doing that. Your discharge papers will have care instructions on it and if you get worse, you could

always come back. And I didn't. I didn't come back after that, but I remember reading my discharge papers. It literally said take tal and all and again nothing that was useful information to help me navigate this miscarriage. And I remember after that just being so frustrated and discouraged, and even though I kept bleeding and I kept having the pain, and every day I'm like sweating it out,

Like this miscarriage is really wearing me out. I remember thinking, you know, you know what, if I don't make it through this, and had I know what I knew now, I probably would have gone back somewhere else, just because I didn't think it would last as long as it did. I literally took me. It literally took me right under two months to fully pass that miscarriage, and like constantly having a safe face for my kid, you know, wake up every morning tatnel or leave or whatever I had

on hand. Finally getting you know, some medication that actually, you know, alleviate some of the pain, which wasn't done all or leave, but like just trying to use some of the resources I had available with different medical physician friends I have. It was rough. It was so rough, and I didn't want to believe that in the twenty first century a system could let you down like this. But that completely changed my worldview and like especially my

outlook on maternal health care in the US. It was like, it is twenty twenty two, and I am praying that I don't hemorrhage. I don't, you know, I want to be here for my kid. I want to be able to raise my daughter, and here I am like using the internet and you know, ideas off of social media on how to navigate a miscarriage and manage a miscarriage excuse me, without actual medication. It was literally the worst

part of my life. And I've I've tried to do good job of like blacking out a lot of those feelings and emotions just because it was just it was. It was hard. It was really hard, for lack of a better term.

and being left without any medical resources. And so yeah, it's extremely difficult to see that in the Again, the twenty first century and twenty twenty five were still up against that vagueness within the law that doesn't provide for a physician to be able to use their expertise.

And we've seen that very clearly with the amount of physicians that have come down to the capital or lobbyed or advocated against these laws that are preventing them from using their medical expertise. And I know in that moment, just when in the language that the physician used like no, we're not doing that at this time, No, I can't do that, I'm not able to do that at this moment, it definitely her fear in being able to give that

care in that moment. And of course those laws have not changed, and so we're still seeing so many women across the state and in all band states being denied that very important medical care because of the fear factor. Physicians don't want to lose their medical licenses, the licenses they work so hard to get. And also you know there's the fear of serving time for it. Right, there's real jail time and consequences, criminal consequences to be had should you break the laws. And I know that they

have to think about that first, which is sad. And in that moment, I know that physician the fear she had on her face, the physician and the medical provider the day before, like not being able to look me in the eye and just say like, I can't do that at this moment.

that expertise. But I will also say that there is a way around it, right because we do know in the state of Louisiana, if you cite it as miscarriage management, even though you know a DNC procedure is still used in elective abortions, it is also used for miscarriage management. Same with mith forpristone and mysoprostal. These are medications that are not only used for abortion care, but a myriad of different ways and for many different illnesses and issues

related to healthcare. And so there is a way to check the box that allows for a physician to use their medical license and their discretion when needed and when necessary, versus you know, explicitly saying that, explicitly stating that it's abortion care, which flags the state to think that this is an elective abortion and folks are figuring it out. I think the frustration and the confusion comes in with the vagueness of the law because it specifically says you

cannot provide this care hard stop. A lot of the physicians that aren't necessarily well seasoned or not have been doing it for decades have not figured out how to again and protect themselves and their career while also putting patient first. Whereas I've also seen other physicians that are able to say no, I can do that and check that, you know, check a box of saving life of mother without even coming up against the law and the intricacies

of the law. And so it is in all that to say, I don't think, actually I know, it is not a lack of education, because I think a lot of times, like a certain political party likes to suspend this as they just need better understanding of the law. They just need a little bit more help in understanding

the intricacies of the law and the implications. And it's not that it is strictly that the law does provide for the state to use its discretion or whether or not they want to prosecute or find or strip the license of a physician based on their medical decision. And so until we get rid of that exception, if you will, we get rid of that vagueness, folks are going to continue to operate with this patchwork of decision making.

live forever? And most importantly helped thems like identify that it you know, well sourced storytellers that want to share your story, that want to get the word out ultimately change hearts and minds, which is what we know we got to do to change policy right and to change the real impacts that the word based there and helping people navigate their state and you know, their states apportion bands and understanding the implications that it has on their

own health. And this is really where I feel like to get two religious on y'all, But like where the Lord wants me, you know, and I always like, you know, pray about that and think about that, like where should I be? How can I be? Making change in someone else's life, And had it not been for me going through that terrible low point in my life, it would not have led me to this high point of being able to be a helper, which is so important to me. We have a lot of listeners of reproductive age.

And is it stayed by state at this point? Like what can someone do to navigate this if they're in this situation in this moment.

So I decided to go an hour away, which sounds crazy, but I decided to go an hour away for my pregnancy with Liam, my one and a half year old, because I did not want to be seen by the medical providers or kind of operate within the medical system, healthcare system and band rouge because I had been failed by them, right and not to hold a grudge, but like it is what it is, and I knew that if we were talking about my life or potentially what

happened throughout my pregnancy, I wanted to be under the care of someone who would act immediately to save my life, who would not have to try and you know, navigate a specific law or not want to use their expertise in training for fear of criminalization. And so for me, that was the first thing I did. I researched medical providers in the state that believes in abortion care, that you know, utilized the full aspect of reproductive health care.

And I landed in New Orleans, which is an hour from my house, and even my sister at the time, she helped me research, particularly women of color physicians or you know women in general. Home. I mean, ironically, I ended up with an awesome white lady who was so progressive and so liberal in her worldview. We have such a

deficit of black doctors in the Saita Louisiana. Everybody's trying to get in with them, right, like, you don't we have such few of them, and so I couldn't get in with the one that I really wanted, and so I researched one more and landed with this physician in New Orleans. And the first thing I asked her when I walked through the door was do you believe in abortion care? And to finish my sentence, she was like, look, not only do we believe in abortion care, we operate,

you know, with our full scope of work. Within the full scope of our work, I utilize my extraduc in training to whatever degree that I need to use it if it means saving my patience, and we will always, you know, act with that first. And she even had a pin on her her scrubs that was like abortion care. And I was like, yes, I'm in the right place. And so to that, I say, yes, you have to be.

And not to say, like everybody has like the privilege to be able to go hour away and lose time on work and like technically going an hour ways like what three hours off the clock, and so not to say you have to go to that, you know, grave of length, but grade of length, but certainly do your homework, ask that question, and if you don't like your answer, you need you very well sure better find someone else

because your life is too valuable. And I think it's important for us to center women and birthing people in this conversation. A lot of times we just hear about baby, but we're important too, and it's important that we have physicians that are making sure that we are Our health is paramount when they're practicing. And there's nothing wrong with asking all the questions, doing your research and making sure that you're in good hands.

domino effect of going through something so traumatic. And so I would definitely say that was the lowest point in my life and for the people around me, was probably difficult for them, having to navigate the new Caitlin, the new Land and after coming you know, on the other side of it. And so definitely lowest point. And I would say, ironically like it kind of like led me to a high point, which is in this moment where I'm at advocating for women's healthcare. Do you think you'll

pivot again? I do. I think I will pivot again, but I won't leave behind reproductive health care. What I'm doing with it, or how I show up to the work. They look different, but I certainly feel like this is my life's mission and goal to make sure that I'm amplifying black maternal health care and reproductive healthcare in general. Thank you so much, Caitlin.

their website at Abortionanamerica dot org. You can also stay up to date with Caitlin on her Instagram at katet Joshua. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us a rating and tell your friends about us. To learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter where you can get exclusive behind the scenes content

on our website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was produced and edited by Emily Atavelosk, with sound editing and mixing from Nina Pollock, Audio production and social media by Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and planning by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is proud to be a part of the iHeart Podcast Network.