Hi, everyone. Before we jump into today's episode, I want to acknowledge the horrific events that have unfolded this past weekend. Hamas's attack on innocent civilians is unspeakable. While there is nuance, there is also simplicity. We want peace, I want solutions, and I want civilians to be safe in their homes. I hold space for hard conversations on this podcast. As a Jewish American citizen watching, I feel a deep sense
of grief for what is happening. Although we did not plan it this way, this week's episode is particularly timely. I had the pleasure to speak with the dear friend of mine, Marissa Renee Lee, who is a leading expert on grief. Her book, Grief Is Love can be a comfort in times like this. It gives specifics to the unimaginable. Something I try to do is to approach hard topics in a way that is paired with connection and with happiness. I've known Marissa for over a decade, and the lightness
and the depth that she brings is undeniable. In this conversation, we explore grief in all forms with a bit of friendliness. During this difficult time. I hope you find solace in your loved ones. I pray for peace for all those suffering.
I'm very excited today to be joined by my real life friend, also inspiration, Marisa Renee Lee, author of Grief is Love, mom, friend to Me, work, friend to Me icon, and incredibly a friend who puts it all out there in a way that is real but also accessible to me when she has gone through so much that I
don't necessarily know how to process. So I recommend everybody look up her Instagram and follow her, read her book Grief is Love, And thank you so much for joining me in my first real friend bantery of this mini episode format.
Yay. I am super super excited. And one of the things I was actually thinking about in advance of this chat is that so much of our friendship developed as we were going through completely opposite motherhood experiences, Like as you were having these beautiful, adorable, lovely children one after the other, I was dealing with the grief of infertility and loss, and like somehow we both managed to show
up for each other. And I just think it's really important to share that upfront, because it's something I've been really grateful for.
Well, I give you a lot of credit in that, So we got pregnant at the same time with my second and with your IVF not your first round.
Yeah, but one ended up being the last round, you're right, but I ended up being the lastest of twenty nineteen.
So I was so sick and honestly kind of depressed that I was pregnant again, thinking how am I ever going to get through this? And you were first pregnant from that. I'm gonna use terminology wrong, the placing.
Okay, it's okay. I was briefly pregnant, yes, yes, from the embryo transfer. Yeah, embryo transfer.
And we were in that moment, and I remember just like not feeling like I could really talk to.
People about it because from the outside.
It was like, oh, you have one little kid and you're pregnant, like of course you planned it, of course you thought of it. And I was feeling like I lost myself and it was really hard for me to talk to anybody about it. But you showed up so much in that moment, and for then for your pregnancy not to have taken the fact that you could then continue to show up for me.
I'm not going to cry talking about it, but it meant so much.
I think I saw what kind of person you were, and the fact that you could still not just be happy for me, but be supportive when I wasn't happy.
So it's funny. I have a close friend who's gone through the loss of a parent. She's also a therapist whose work focuses on people usually around our own age, who or at the end of their lives, and she always says, you know, we don't have to do the trauma Olympics, Like grief can be grief no matter what it is that you're experiencing. You know, like, we don't have to do this as some sort of a comparison
like I was feeling shitty, you were feeling shitty. They were very different situations, but like it was grief for both of us. And so you know, I became really thankful for the ways in which you showed up for me and terms of supporting like my career that was becoming more centered around grief, and you know, the ways you showed up for me personally. And I never thought like, oh, Emily shouldn't be sad right now, because you know, she
has her pregnancy and she has her child. I more felt like grief is hard, and I'm glad that I have this friend who's supportive of me.
So I want to back up to actually when we first met, it was because you were working in the White House. You were like this big White House boss, which was my dream and never ended up achieving.
Was cut short.
Maybe one that just crazy would probably not but you, I mean, what did that feel like to be working in the White House?
Awesome? Probably it was, I mean, it was amazing. I also tell people it was the hardest work environment you can imagine, because you're sort of you know, you're thrown into this job. And in my case, when we met, I was the Deputy Director of Private Sector Engagement, which sounds very fancy and serious, but it was a title that I came up with for a job that didn't
exist before I created it. That felt like it was important and necessary, and so a lot of the time, you know, you're kind of making it up as you go along and trying always to keep front and center. You know, your values and your commitment to service, but it's really hard for a young person to figure out how to navigate the ins and outs of one of the oldest institutions in the country with virtually no support, Like I will never stop being grateful for that experience.
And that was another experience that was rooted in grief. As you know, my mom passed away in February of two thousand and eight, so same year President Obama was elected, and a month before she died, I was watching him give a speech in Kansas about his vision for America and like what we could create together, and it was a hope and just filled me with so much optimism
about the future of our country. And I watched it from my childhood bedroom while my mom was dying across the hall, and I decided in that moment, you know, I'm angry that I'm not able to be on the campaign and you know, do all these other things, but eventually I will get there. Like I'm going to find a way to work for this man because we don't know how short or long our life is going to be,
and this is something I'm going to prioritize. So yeah, it was amazing, and just like everything else in my career, deeply rooted in grief.
I feel like those jobs where you have to forge your own path end up like they're really hard, but end up being the best, Like you really have to work for it, like this is not like a check in check out kind of thing, but end up being the best.
So how did you literally end up in that job?
It's all I mean.
It's also not like the federal government is well known for like bringing people on a new creative roles.
No, so well, first of all, I stalked people just to get my foot in the door. And I started out at the Small Business Administration doing work primarily focused on increasing access to capital and economic opportunity and underserved communities. So you know, black, brown, LATINX women, entrepreneurs, veterans, et cetera. And I just kept at it, you know, I kept putting my hand up and volunteering for new assignments. I kept doing extra projects on the side with the White
House in my free time. And one thing led to another, and there was a lot of work happen around the president's priorities and alignment with the business community, and so they needed someone who understood the needs of businesses and also the priorities of our administration. And as a former banker, in a lot of ways, it made sense. You know. There was still a lot of advocating that I had to do for myself and a lot of advocating that
colleagues did on my behalf. But at the end of the day, it was you know, the hard work, determination slash stubbornness, and a real commitment to serving our president. You know, I wanted to do everything I could to help this man achieve his streams for our country.
I feel like that work tactic that you tried of, just like raising your hand and taking on projects is I mean the best, the absolute best way to do it. It works, like it actually works because the people who you want to be hiring you know that they're not taking a chance on you, like they've seen your work products.
Now that you show up, you're trusted, You're trusted. That is, by far the way that.
People get hired on campaigns is you just go to your first volunteer, like you go to like the first person who's been in the room, and you're like, oh, okay, Like I could take a chance on hiring someone when I have no idea what the dynamic's going to be, I don't know their work ethic, or I can take this person who may not know the job exactly, but like they get it, like they know how to work and I'm familiar with them, and there's not that kind of onboarding, and I feel like, even, look, I mean,
we've both been consultants for like many years now. We've talked about this a lot of times. It's like how much work do we do for free versus starting to get paid and like taking on new clients. We've talked about this a lot that like there's no right answer, but it is the best way to get to really get your foot in the door if you want your ideal job, your ideal project, Like, it's kind of the best way to do.
It one hundred percent. Whenever I talk to younger people about career development and career advancement, I say, don't start out by asking for things for yourself, Like, start out by asking how you can contribute and finding ways to serve and support others, because that will naturally come back to, Oh, we trust her. You know she knows what she's doing, She's volunteered for X, y Z. Why wouldn't we consider
her for this next promotion or new opportunity. So lead with some sense for how you can help someone else, and it will always end up serving you in your career.
I think totally so I want to fast forward.
Now.
Do you wrote this book Grief Is Love? How did the book come about specifically?
Oh girl? The books started almost exactly fifteen years ago when I lost my mom to breast cancer. And as you could probably tell, I'm like very type A on top of things, I like lists, I like spreadsheets. It was very organized around my mom's death and very proactive around grief, reading the books, doing the research, thinking that if I was prepared, I would be fine. And that's just not true. Like the loss destroyed me. And it took a really long time to realize that when we
lose someone we love, we don't get over it. Like I don't even know who came up with that concept, but I would love to just smack them, because it's not it's not true, it's not possible. And the leading research around grief and loss is all about learning how
to live with it. And so through both the loss of my mother and then you know, my IVF journey and pregnancy loss, I came to realize the very hard way that learning to live with these things is like the work of your life, you know, That is what healing is really about. That's what this idea of moving on is about you know, you don't move on alone. You move on with your people and the experiences and
the love that you shared with them. And so I started writing about my theories on grief and loss in Earnest in twenty twenty, which was obviously a big year of grief for everyone, and an article I wrote that Lots of Friends like Yourself Shared went somewhat viral and
led to a book deal. And in Grief as Love, I really try to normalize the experience of grief and loss for all of us, whether you're someone who has already gone through it or someone who's trying to support someone else who's going through it, It's a part of life, and I want people to know that fundamentally, grief is the repeated experience of learning to live in the midst
of a significant loss. So whether it's learning to figure out, you know, in your case, all of those years ago, how do I manage this grief I'm experiencing around the loss of my career and the plans that I had for my life right now, or me trying to figure out, you know, what does it look like to accept the fact that I've never given birth naturally and never will, but I still now today am fortunate to be a mom to like this beautiful, perfect adopted child of mine.
So yeah, it's it's a lived experience, and I hope that it's helpful for people as they move through grief.
And he is like the cutest little p ut He's just like a little like squishy, like he's so cute.
He's a true he's a true.
Well, I wonder about this, like, as you're building up this grief portfolio. You know, we've talked about how you want to make it like much more of your time and more of your work, because you're still doing your political consulting, like as you're oh yeah, I'm still going you know, like as you're writing your book, like as you're doing your book tour, like you're speaking to like you're still you're still doing it.
So like, how how do you.
Actually make it not profit profitable is not the right word, but like sustainable for you to do, like for it to take up more of your time and like more of your band with like realistically, like functionally, how do you make it work? And then I also wonder I've actually wondered about this for you, how do you stay in the grief all the time, because the thing that you're talking about is the.
Hardest part of your life.
Yeah, but you want to do it more so like are you okay?
Like how are you doing that?
Yeah? No, that's that's a really good question. So I have reframed my work. Even though yes, it is very much about grief and loss, I tend to think of it as being about healing and resilience because fundamentally, you know, I don't want people to stay sad, like I don't want people to stay stuck in the worst and hardest parts of grief because they're fucking terrible, Like they're awful,
They're so so awful. What I want is for people to get comfortable acknowledging the hard parts that continue to
come up as you live your life. You know, when we were fortunate enough to you know, get the call about this baby and become parents in less than twenty four hours, it was like the most amazing, joyful, magical experience, But there was also grief in it, you know, like I wanted my mom there to help me, Like, you know how overwhelming it is to suddenly have a newborn and to be handed a baby that's two days old.
With nothing, like we had nothing Emily, like, everything for this child came from other people getting organized, sending us something for him to sleep in, you know, sending diapers and orders from Target and the grocery store to our airbnb. But like, at the end of the day, I also wanted that mom help and there was none of that, and it was really hard. And so what I want is to be able to use my story and my experiences and the leading research to help people live with
those moments. And so I'm okay into doing more of that work because fundamentally it makes me feel like there is more meaning and purpose to the really hard things that I've gone through. So that that's kind of how I rationalize it. But I'll tell you I did. I did a three hour like grief and sort of processing, healing, leaning into joy type session for a nonprofit organization that deals with grief regularly, both the loss of students. They've had a number of recent and very unexpected losses in
their staff. And it was hard. You know, it was three hours of talking about it, listening to people crying, you know, people trying to support each other. And after that, like, I need a nap. I can't like, I definitely absorb it. That's just the kind of person that I am. And I don't know who would go through that kind of work and not absorb it. And so I try to be really intentional about building and breaks and time for care for myself because otherwise I.
Can't do this work that totally makes sense to me. So over the years you've been a sounding board for me, and now with your work, I can just read it, which is so nice that I have you accessible to me all of the time. But I have not gone through the significant losses that you have, and so it's intimidating for me to talk to people who have, and like, I'm not really sure how to do it. And I think that sometimes people see your work and it's intimidating.
If they have gone through it, they think it's going to bring it back up, or if they haven't.
Gone through it, it's intimidating because they think it's not for them. And one of the kind of sad losses of my life has been the losses of friendships, where you know, as we're getting older, like we have more and more of these close losses in our lives, and I have not shown up for my friends in the way that they needed me to, and then I've the friendship just couldn't survive it.
So that's real.
What advice do you give to people on my side of this on how to be showing up for their friends when they can't actually empathize, Like they can only sympathize.
They haven't been through the experience.
Yeah.
So the big thing that I always say, and I know that this gets people really hung up. You know, I don't know what to say, Like the worst thing just happened to somebody that I care about, and like, I don't know what to say. And the reason why you don't know what to say is because there is no right thing or perfect thing to say. And I say that as a person who's got hundreds of words in a book about grief and has been through it
a bunch of times. And the reason why there's no right thing to say is because the worst thing has just happened to someone. And so I encourage people to just put the words aside, and again saying this as
a writer, forget about your words and take action. And action can take a lot of different forms, you know, people, when we've gone through our losses, it's everything from like me to takeing care of our dog to a bunch of my girlfriends got together knowing how devastating the pregnancy loss was, and they pulled a bunch of money and gave us a gift certificate to the Four Seasons because they were like, not only do you guys need a vacation, but you need like a fancy, bougie break from reality
type vacation. And it was the most thoughtful thing.
You know.
I've received wine and cheese boxes, but like, I've also gotten practical help from people. You know, our mutual friend Chris Cormier, who's also in this political consulting space, when I went through my pregnancy loss, like he literally just took work away from me. You know, he knew projects that I was working on because we share some clients, and he just just took them, you know, didn't ask,
just took it. Like even I think about things that you've done to support my work, Like when I was doing the series with Glamour and you made the connection to Corey Booker so that I could interview him live for the series on Grief. Like, there are so many ways to show up for people, but I do think the most effective ones are rooted in action, not words. So I just I want people to let go of being intimidated, because it is intimidating, Like it's death, it's
a lot, it's hard, it's heavy. So just do something that feels right to you to help them.
That really resonates of something that feels something that feels right to you and something that feels doable.
Yeah, don't overthink it. Like it can either be rooted in your experiences and like what supports someone maybe be pro frided to you at some point. It can be rooted in like what assets and you know, relationships and things you can bring to the table. It can also be rooted in and this is one of the ones that I have found most meaningful when people do something that like gets at the core of who I am
independent of this loss. You know, like someone sent me a box of cheeses and like fancy snacks from Murray's in the West Village because it's one of my favorite stores like in the world, and that you know, like when you if I had sustained that pregnancy, I wouldn't have been able to eat all of those fancy cheeses. So it was.
Also practical in some way, and because she solves everything, it really does.
Like a good snack and a glass of bourbon, like really do go a long way.
So I'm going to ask the question I ask all of my Pivot guests, which is, what is one thing in your life that at the time you thought it was like really low, but then in retrospect you look back and it kind of set you up for success?
Gosh, I mean, lord, there have been so many. I would say for me in terms of like recent history, it would have to be our pregnancy lost like it was. It was awful. It was one of the lowest and most depressing times in my life. But now I look at the child that I have, and I also look at the book that came out of that experience, and I don't want to say it set me up for success, but it absolutely enabled things that might not have happened otherwise that I'm incredibly grateful for.
And I think perspective means to speak for you, but I think perspective change a little bit as well.
Not that you needed perspective after what you've been through.
Already, but I think that it it just I don't know how to articulate it, but it like changed.
It shifted so many things for me. It shifted so many things for me, and I learned so many things from that experience. Like as horrible as it was, and I do not wish to repeat it or anything, but it was, it was incredibly valuable.
I think I also, having lived that moment with you, I think I also remember there being like a shift in mindset to I'm not sure if adoption is the way that I'll become a parent to I now see this as a realistic way to become a parent one hundred percent.
And he's gorgeous, and congratulations.
Thank you well, thank you so much for joining our conversational minisodes.
It's so good to have you on.
Thank you for having me.
Marissa is continuing her work on grief and she is relaunching her book on paperback this week. I'm so looking forward to celebrating with her and one of our other guests, Emily Oster, next week at their event. If you're in the New York area and want to stop by, you can find more info on our Instagram at she Pivots the Podcast. Thanks for listening to this candid convo episode of she Pivots. This is actually our last candid convo of this season because next week is our season finale.
It's bittersweet, but I'm so ready for you all to hear my conversation with a very exciting guest. It's a secret for now, but I wonder if you can guess who it might be. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at she pivots the podcast for some clues and leave a rating and comment if you enjoyed this episode to help others learn about it. A special thank you to our partner Marie Clair and the team that made
this episode possible. Talk to you next week. She Pivots is hosted by me Emily Tish Sussman, produced by Emily Eda Voloshik, with sound editing and mixing from Nina Pollock and research and planning from Christine Dickinson and Hannah Cousins.
I endorse Che Pizzots.