Candid Convo: Tori Taylor: Planning Her Pivot

Welcome to She Pivots. I'm your host to Emily Tish Sussman.

One of my goals in starting this podcast is to highlight voices and stories of women who went through something deeply personal, only to come out of it on the other side better than they could have imagined. After launching She Pivots last year, it's clear it's not a small group. This applies to most women, whether it's a big pivot or even just a tiny pivot. What's clear is there's

Thank you so much.

I'm going to use all of those lines as like the opening like bio for my LinkedIn and like maybe my Twitter bio especially like the best person you'll ever meet.

Yeah, that was the best intro I've ever gotten. This is part of your illustrious podcasting career. Yeah, you hosted a show and I loved and you came up with the title for my political show.

Oh is that right?

Yes?

Is that right?

Yeah?

Oh, how fun came up.

With your political playlist. I mean it was like a playlist.

It was Wow, what a clever name. It's had so many meetings. It was so good. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I totally forgot that. Does that genius just emanate from you at all times?

I like to think, So you brought it to politics, Yeah, then you've brought it to podcasts.

Yeah, and then back to politics. Yeah. Yeah. Basically yeah, I'm like a two trip pony. That's it.

You're like puns in every field. I know, I'll have to think of like the next thing I want to bring genius to. But also I don't want to stretch it out too much, you know, it's like, do a couple of things really well, but if like you know, if you spread it out too much, then you just start being bad at all of them. You know.

Do you remember any of your other good podcast namings?

Oh? Man, I don't know if I like named any others. I definitely thought of lots of names and had lots of ideas for other podcasts, but like they mostly just stayed in my head, like.

This is your moment, let's hear them.

I feel like every friend that I've had that I've ever had like an interesting conversation with, like beginning like five or six years ago, like.

Oh, we should start a podcast because we'reus.

Like we could call it like Torri and Susan talk about the news or whatever. But like, I don't think any of those were very good. I think it was just like we think we're so funny and the masses would want to hear this conversation, which also is like, you know, low key narcissistic. That's about I love that I'm saying and a recording things.

So this era of narcissism, like it's not even like the selfie Instagram, like look what a great influencer I am, Like people would find me hilarious.

Fry of the world of this.

Oh, I mean that's literally what this podcast is right now?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I feel like I feel like this, like people will either find this very like endearing, like oh, how cute, or be like wow, what a tool.

So I guess we'll see they're going to be like.

Did these two girls used to talk about politics? I didn't talk about policy. We don't even believe that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah no.

But you know, whenever you're talking to friends and like you guys get going and like the little groove and you're bantering and like one joke leads to another and like you're laughing, and then all of a sudden, like wow, that was like a killer ten minute segment.

You know, we could even put an ad break in here. It was so good, I know, I know. And now moving on to these pants. Now, these pants they're so comfortable, I'll wear them all the time. Well you can get this ten percent discount code. It really was the sponsor that you had on your podcast was yeah, yeah, yeah, I was.

I was circling back, which I so aware Beta brand sponsored me again, what's a sponsor?

Always a sponsor you're in so deep. You're good. They got you for life, I know. Okay, So, Tori, when I.

Had the idea of doing this, when I was coming down to DC in person to have an episode with you on yeah, it is because you were one of the people that I've known the longest in politics, yeah, which is crazy.

Yeah.

And you were a wee baby politico in infant and infinite when.

We had because you were the head of the College Democrats. Yeah, as an infant, as an infant yeah. And I was the head of the Young Democrats of America. Yeah.

And then the organizations were at war, of course, naturally, why would not anything in the Democratic Party not be at war entirely?

And then you became the head of the youth engagement at the convention, that's right. Yeah, so our power dynamic, Like you really had the upper hand very quickly. Oh wow, I never thought of it like that. Oh I definitely did. Oh did you really? Oh my god, Oh she's in.

College, but now she holds all of my faith And you really handled that howard beautifully.

Oh, thank you so much.

I think I was like, I don't know that I fully knew that I had it all so that probably helped.

When you don't know how much power you're wielding.

But yeah, I mean I was like a baby, I mean like twenty, but yeah, in my mind, a baby.

You handled yourself very professionally. Thank you, thank you. Well.

I was like, that was one of my first like real jobs, that convention job, and because before I had just been doing like student organizing and I was in college, and so I feel like every time I went to that job, I was like, oh God, they're gonna realize that I'm a child, and they're not gonna let me have this job anymore.

So I was always on like my best foot forward. Well, I remember you. I remember sitting in a meeting with you. Maybe it was at the convention, but it was like a tense meeting and you were running it and you handled the pressure very well. Wow, I held an awkward conversation. Shout out to twenty year old toy, we love her, we love her.

So then after that, so after the convention, I actually don't know what you did after that, But then a few years, like a few jobs into it, I was able to.

Recruit you over to work on my team. Yeah.

Yeah, at Center for American Progress, Yeah, which was a real highlight for which was only like three years later, which that feels like it was like ten years later, but it wasn't that long after that. Well, you were already I remember when you came over, you were on a list of rising stars in Washington, because I was like, oh, did you guys see the get who's coming to my team?

She is a rising star?

Yeah, yeah, I remember that she had no impression in those three years.

Yeah. Yeah, that was a a meteoric rise for baby toy.

She became like a toddler and then like a rising star and then just like a regular adult. Like so there's like that window where if like you're just young enough, everyone's like, oh my god, it's so cool to have like young people in the room, like what a wonder kid. And then you like reach like twenty five or twenty six, and I'm like, okay, you're just like everybody else.

Like, wow, go do your job. It's nothing special. Now it's time to do your job. Yeah, yeah, nothing special. So I appreciated the years where I was special.

Well, I remember feeling like I could not believe that I had I was so happy that I had recruited you over because I was like I get to hang out with.

Toy every day. Oh, that's so funny.

And that era lasted less long than I would have liked it too, of us actually working together.

I know. Do you remember that conversation? Yeah, yeah, that Hillary Clinton sucked me away.

You did it tactfully when you came to me and you said there's only one job that I would leave this job for.

Yeah, and they just offered it to me. I know, I know, I remember that, Like I remember like being in.

The office having that conversation, because like I remember going into those interviews. One I'm obviously obsessed with Hillary Clinton and always had been, but I was like, oh, there's really like only like a couple of jobs that would makes sense for me to leave for. And then I get on the phone they offered me that exact job. I'm like, Okay, well.

Look at God, Look at God. Who am I to argue with this? Yeah? Yeah, it feels like destiny.

And it was also just like I feel like Emily won't be mad at me for going to try to elect the first female president. You know.

That was like, you know, you're you make a good argument.

You know. It was just like for anyone in anyone but Hillary Clinton. It might have been a problem, but it's just like, okay, well, you know, first female president, Okay, whatever.

Well, I can't remember how much I communicated to you about this at the time because I was so insecure about it. But I had just gotten married and immediately gotten pregnant, so I knew that I wasn't going to be able to go work on the campaign, even though.

That had been my dream.

But I knew it wasn't going to be an option for me, and you got basically the best job I could have imagined, Like I hadn't necessarily put myself out there, but also nobody had.

Called me for it.

So I was happy for you, but also jealous that you were one.

Offered the job and two able to take it.

Yeah, I want I never even knew that you were jealous. I you know, it was really I was going to represent us both. It was like us as a Unich going, well you always you know, if you can then I will, you know, right, Yeah, it was it was me why, I like, it was so special because my the first thing a man I ever worked on was Hillary Clinton's and Jy and eight, and I was like the first time I ever got involve in politics. So there was like this like sentimental, like full circle moment about it.

It was really cute. Yeah, me and my grandmother talked about it a lot. I absuper shooting. I know, I know I had the baby. I remember I.

Brought him to visit you in headquarters and in Brooklyn.

Yeah, took him.

Yeah, because I'm obsessed with children and babies in particular, Like I love babies, and you brought the baby to headquarters Dean, which is crazy to even think about Dean as a baby now, but I remember, like you gave him to me, and I just kind of like trotted off and I.

Was thrilled because I wasn't sure that I was taking care of him correctly.

Yeah. Yeah, Geori feels more confident than I do with this four week old.

I think he was literally three to four weeks old. I was in my head, Yeah, I was looking back to my pictures. He was like four weeks old.

I have this like screenshot.

I think it was like maybe you took it on snapchat or something and sent it later. But it was like a screenshot of like me holding Dean in a very far away part of the office, and like the caption was just like Tory ran away with I was like, there goes touring with my child something like that. And so that's the only like photographic evidence I have of him been in the office. Is me somewhere in a corner, like low key kidnapping him.

Just a very small granulated dot representing the presential campaign.

Well at the time, kidnapping children.

Well that's actually also probably was representing the campaign well because on that same trip, HRC was in the city and in my mom's building, and my mom was like, oh, let's bring Dean.

What was she thinking?

So we actually went over to that event, and because she loves babies, she was like, oh, look at this cute little baby. And then the next day or I think that day was the day that she fell down.

Oh I don't know that she had the flu.

Oh yes, I remember this now, and we were like, let's never show this photographic evidence that she may have given a pre vaccinated baby at the flu.

Oh.

I was actually liked, Dean give her the.

Fluor oh, no, no, no, no, no.

No no, that's not a story. That's not a story.

But I do feel like that was the beginning. Like I've talked about this a lot, especially in this podcast, but like that was kind of like the beginning of the end of my downward trajectory of my political career, like of all the things that I thought I was working towards. Yeah, you and I both know, like living and working in this political world that like you live in a two year cycle a congressional cycle, and you

But you have done it.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, when you think about it, like the sector is like so brutal, especially you know, I think also being in a city like Washington, d C.

I mean the comparison cycle. You just can't escape it.

Like, what do you mean the comparison cycle, Like you know, because so many people who I think enter political careers, whether it's like an advocacy or campaigns. It's like you said, it's like it's just a constant, you know, seemingly ladder to different things or like a jungle gem, always like

And I just.

Feel like it's impossible to like not compare your journey with your friends or like coworkers or like anyone that you meet.

And I think that's just it's really hard.

And I think especially if you're making a pivot or like a transition out of that into like a different chapter or a different era, I think it's really hard to make that transition like while you're still like in the minutia of like a city where people are so obsessive about stuff like that.

Totally agree with you.

I mean, I was at the White House yesterday for this Women's History Month reception, And it was so interesting because there were obviously a lot of people that I know are in and out of the administration, and some that I don't know. And as friends were introducing me to people who were in the admin who I didn't know, they definitely started like a little bit of distance and

And they're like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, good to see you again.

But it was so funny, like the dagnal change and I saw and I was talking to one person who like I didn't know that well, but since I saw her, I went over to hello, as I generally do, and her demeanor towards me like clearly she gets she's like a very high position in the White House, and like she clearly gets hit up all the.

Time for things.

So the first like forty five seconds of our discussion were very different than the following minutes.

Like she at first she was like very guard yeah though she recognized me a new made Yeah.

And then once she realized that I didn't want anything from her and I just wanted to like ket its yeah catch up.

Yeah yeah. She was like, oh I forgot how to do this nice. This isn't a transaction. I can like be normal. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah, I mean that is That is I think like one of the worst parts about this city. It's just like it is so transactional. And you can tell like when you're like out of a party or like networking or like you can tell immediately like the vibe from someone when they're like assessing like what value can I gain from you? What can you offer me as like

Yeah, you know it starts out that way.

Yeah, it's just like you're at the point where like you've got a great life and like you have all this stuff going on and you have confidence, and you know, a bad interaction like that someone is like not going to like ruin your day. But like if you would have had that conversation, like maybe when you're like twenty two, like you probably would have responded different, right, So totally, yeah, you know, it.

Was so funny.

Alison Zelman called me yesterday when I was talking to somebody who I didn't know, Like I was talking.

To Eleman and this other woman who had worked with her before it came over.

So I was just chatting with her and I was like, oh, do you live in Washington? And Zelma looked at me and she was like, you speak differently, Yeah, you don't live here.

She was like, no, what you would say Washington?

Yeah, like people would say, like, do you it that's true in a D three And I.

Was like, yeah, that's right, Like now that I'm outside DC.

Community thing, Yeah, I hearder Like last year, I took a little bit of a break, as you know, I like went away for like three months in between like two jobs. And whenever I was thinking about like where I wanted to take my break, like I was like, oh, I could just have a staycation in d C. Or like maybe I'll go to New York or California. And finally I was like, no, I have to like physically leave the country because like I need to be like away from the DC culture and kind of the grind

Anti anxiety medication I've ever taken ever just leave it.

Yeah, Yeah, it was like the tension just like relaxed from my shoulders. And I tell people now that you

We welcome you. I mean, I there are so many good parts about living here, Like there's.

Lots of opportunities, there's always stuff to do, and like for all the like the bad people, there are also a lot of great people that you know are so smart there. They are so like mission driven and it is neat to like be immersed in that. But like there's a trade off, right, it's like good and bad.

Yeah, I mean I don't say, like why do you say it in a judgmental way? You know I've said you one hundred times. Yeah, I'm so jealous that I can't still be in it, Like I miss it. Yeah, I miss the pace, I mean and the impact. I miss that, like we can actually change a lot of lives. We change and we have good laws.

Yeah, yeah, it's all it's all fun.

But I mean, like what you're doing is so cool, Like I would almost like turn it around opposite, Like I feel like you are in this place where like you're like meeting all of these different people, You're having all of these really interesting conversations and all these interesting gatherings, and like also like being able to flex all this creative muscle that actually it feels really difficult to do

And I don't know, I feel like the older I get, the.

More I'm appreciative of past chapters of my career and also like get a little bit closer to like feeling good about while the next chapter could look so different, Like your chapter looks so different than what it looks like here, but it also feels just as exciting and like fulfilling in like a different way.

And I don't know, it's like it's cool to think about it.

It's like, Wow, my life might not always look like this, but like there actually are really exciting ways that it could look like to not be scared of those differences, right, they could be really cool, but I like, you're a person I look at that has like done that pivot really well, and I feel like it makes people who haven't gotten to a pivot like that or gotten to like writing their next chapter.

It like gives a little hope, you know.

It's like, oh, wow, well she did it, and it's like looks really cool, and like maybe it's better than what I'm doing now.

You know.

There definitely is a very formulaic sense of what success is in Washington. Like it's what you described before, like it's climbing the ladder, it's running an organization, Like you did a very clear formula around.

What success is.

I mean, it is true, like I got to interview the Vice president. I wouldn't have gotten to that if I was still here. I mean even yesterday at the White House reception, they had pointed to the crowd.

I think it was I think it was the Vice president. You said it and it's like all these women here who've changed the world and hit the atmosphere.

Or like something like that, but made it very clear that wanted the women in the crowd was an astronaut.

Oh cool, yeah, oh yeah, that makes more sense, like a hemisphere.

So weird turn of phrase, so metaphorical.

Yeah, yeah.

I pointed to her and I recognized that she had a very specific dress on.

So I found her in the reception and I was like, are you an astronaut?

Yeah?

And she's like, well, yes I am. And I had something to ask her. I was like, can I interview you?

Yeah?

So I got her card and now I'm going to follow up an interview her. Cool.

I don't know if she's a pivot or not, but it feels definitely worth an interview.

But like before I.

Would live in atlants like there, it is pivoted out of one atmospheric like situation to the next, the literal earth. Yeah yeah, wow, that is that's intense, But that was cool, like it is, it's more creative, like I had something to ask her, like I had something to connect with her on.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes I probe people in an unappealing way in social settings, like maybe ask too many questions, and now it's an appropriate setting.

Yeah, ask too many personal questions. Yeah, oh that's funny. That's funny.

I mean yeah, I guess like having a podcast in an interview setup like is a natural way to be very direct yeah, versus like, you know, seeing someone at a party and being like, are you an astronaut?

Tell me the twelve steps that got you there? Yeah, I'd love to know. Yeah, what did you major in college? Yeah? Yeah, tell me about your parents.

I guess like an interview setting does feel like natural for that, right, and someone might prep for those types of questions beforehand, But I.

Didn't want to go into that cocktail astronaut conversation cold.

I was like, Yea, I'm unprepared for this moment. I have a lot of questions, but I don't necessarily know what they are. That's so funny.

I feel like sometimes like I'll be like I feel like I'm kind of similar. I'll be like at a happy hour or something. I have this like happy hour that I do with my friends like every Tuesday, and sometimes I'll just be like we we like talk about work, and like all of a sudden, like, why don't you just like switch it up, like tell me about your trauma?

You know.

I Like, I feel like the girls that regularly go are just like, yeah, yeah, let's like let's okay, We've got a list of traumas. Let's just like talk through them. We've got like, you know, drinks and whatnot. But every now and then we'll have like a guest, right that doesn't always come. And it's like, okay, like all right, so what is your trauma person that just like came here?

And she's like, oh, I'm not too common. I like, is this a cocktail party?

Yeah, let's like keep the vibes light. I'm like, oh this is light, Like this is okay. Let's just let's just make this deeper than just your normal interaction that.

Makes you so incredibly well prepared to have young children and meet friends through that, because that's basically what the conversations are like.

And there's no conversation transitions.

Because at any moment, like anyone could be pulling you, yelling on you, pulling at you. So you're like, let's just have half a conversation here about why my perspective has led me to overly analyze this part of my child and beat myself up about it, and let's go right into what did we make them for?

Like pack them for lunch? Like those transitions become very fast.

Yeah, half a conversation on each Okay, that makes me feel good, That makes me feel Yeah, I like to be prepared for anything that a piece you didn't know you were preparing for. But does the fact that we have gone through all of these phases in tandem, like

Does it scare you? Or how much does it scare you?

I mean, I'll be honest, I actually feel like what And I'm not even saying it's to like puff you up or whatever, But I do feel like watching you do the next thing has made me less scared. Like I feel like there was a time in my life where it made me very nervous to think about not being in this right like not being like in DC in the grind, like constantly hustling.

For like the next big thing.

And I do feel like as I've gotten older and I've watched other people make transitions that feel super exciting and like feel like, wow, that that looks really cool, I feel like I've gotten into this mindset of just like you should just think about like the next things in your life. It's like if something feels exciting and feels like you're growing, like you should do it. And like if it doesn't feel exciting or if it doesn't feel so like you're growing, like you should not do it.

Yeah, I mean, and I feel like I could only get to it by having a rock bottom.

So I don't hope that for you. Do you feel like where was your rock bottom?

It was drawing a lockdown and like the and sort of up until the presidential like in twenty twenty. Interesting because I had had this idea going into twenty twenty that I was going to have the third baby in February. I knew what eternity leave looked like, and I was

For, you know, whatever the next ladder was.

And I just couldn't do it, Like all of that was predicated on the idea that I would have child care and the structure around me, and because it all disappeared, I couldn't even keep my head on, Like I was breastfeeding and my milk dried up from stress, like it was it just it all like everything fell apart, and I kept being like, okay, I'll just do you know, like I'll bandy this one last thing with this all bandied this with thing.

And then I realized it was no band dating left. It was all gone. And then I finally got one.

Serious gootv end of the election contract and I was executing for the last two weeks of the election.

Is remember this pre vaccine and our nanny.

What we had been doing for child's care, is that our nanny had been coming to stay with us for like that fourteen days on and off. And as she had been with because that was what people thought was the length that you could.

Yeah, So as.

She'd been with us for four days, then she started to feel a little sick, got a COVID test, she had COVID.

She went home, but she had already been with us for four days.

So we were in like full lockdown quarantine with all three kids, couldn't see another person. And like that last presidential contract disappeared like I couldn't do it. It was just

To explain to your listeners what's going to happen or your readers. Yeah, what's going to happen? I think you should bring me on. Yeah, And nobody wanted to bring me.

On, and even Marie Claire, but it least opened the door for me to have a conversation with them. So when I had the non political idea to do sheep Pivots, we had already had.

Some dialogue and been able to go back.

Sure, but my dream had been to decipher this for a women's magazine, and nobody wanted to bring me on for it. So I was like, well, I came up with the perfect compromise and nobody wants it.

Yeah, God, that sounds awful. How do you think you came out of it as you were like in the rock bottom? Like, when is the time that you felt like you started to see light out at the end of it?

I mean I still struggle, Yeah, because I.

Still struggle with my physical limitations, like my bandwidth and energy is just literally.

Sucked by my children.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure right now my whole body is itchy with a recurring Rosetia virus that I have, oh Jesus, which is.

Also ing my bandwidth. So I still struggle with that. But you don't look itchy at all. Oh it feels a little itchy and yeah, yeah, no, like if I would just looked at you, I wouldn't even thought. I wouldn't even thought that you were going to itch somewhere. Oh you know, Okay, I'm better at masking it. But I think it started to become real.

I think when Marie Claire said yes, I think that was the beginning of it starting to feel real and starting to find a new rhythm.

Like the shape of its.

Format is very different than what your political playlist had been. I don't know, Like I feel like there's little validators that come, you know, releasing our first season was a validator, like being in a real studio. I'd be like, oh, your hair for this podcast, Like interviewing the vice president,

Yeah, that's that's.

The stuff that scares me about having kids, the feeling of like there's never enough time or just not feeling like you can do it all right, because like, I mean, I don't feel like I can do it all and I have kids. I have like two dogs and like they don't need anything like kids be and a garden and yeah, and a garden which you know, like if I like don't water it for a week, like and it does, Like I mean that's different than like, you know,

But I don't know.

I hope that you figure out the formula before I have kids, you know, so you know what.

I actually just had a memory of doing in the four months that I lived in Manhattan.

The first live podcast I ever.

Did was interviewing you as a political strategist in front of a live audience.

Oh do you remember that? I do remember that.

It was like ninety second Street or something like that. I don't remember something like that.

But it was also right when my son was starting his first preschool program and I've gone in for the orientation and they said, where is your photo book?

Where are your pictures of your family? And where is your box? And I was like, what are you talking about? As a box? What the book is a box?

I broke down hysterically crying in the meeting with the teacher, and I was like, I am so unprepared for this.

And then I went to go meet you and I couldn't stop crying. Yeah, and you.

Said, we're not going to prepare for this interview right now, let's go buy supplies made, and.

We made his book. Couldn't find you made his photo books. I remember that. That was God, that was funny. It was a fun little craft. We had a nice little craft.

You know.

I couldn't start crying, but sure we made beautiful craft.

Yeah.

Crafts can be emotional. They elicit things.

You know. Yeah, that's so funny. But you know, also on the inswell you made the box. We did the interview and it was great.

It was great.

Yeah, it was a great episode. It was That was a really fun live event too.

That wasn't fun.

Yeah, crowd, that was really fun.

I think that might have been like my first like live podcast like interview ever.

Me too, I think I don't know. I think it was maybe.

Yeah, look at us, Look at us breaking barriers and doing crafts simultaneously. Now we're recording in a hotel room. Yeah, I really fancy No tears yet, not over yet, it's still early in the day.

Oh, that's so funny.

What do you feel like you still need to do in politics?

Oh? Interesting? I don't know.

That there's anything that like I like a single thing that I'm just like, oh, I have to check this box, right, Like I think I definitely felt like that during my twenties. I was like, Oh, I'd really like to manage a campaign, I'd really like to be an executive director of an organization, and I've feel got to do a lot of those things. And so it's actually sometimes it feels a little bit weird that like there's not like that exact title or that exact organization that I'm just like, I have to

So I don't know if there's a single thing.

I think like what I'm excited about next and want to do next is like something that like feels like really big and socially impactful, you know, whether that's in like partisan politics, whether that's like at a private company, or like I'm kind of interested in like the next layer of like impact, you know, because I think I thought for so long impact just meets politics, yeah, right, And the world of impact and social impact is like so much bigger than that, so I'm like kind of

So yeah, I don't know if there's a single thing to be so accomplished so young. I've met all of your goals.

But but on the other hand, I will say, like, you know, something I reflect back on is like, when I met some of those goals, I wasn't always like that happy, you know, And that actually made me like think a little bit differently about having like such a single track minded towards like Plan A or Plan B. Because a couple of times when I like met those goals and like, wow, I've been working my entire life to get this title at this organization and be in

I hate it.

Like I'm so unhappy. I thought I would really like this and I didn't. And so like, honestly, those like experiences have like helps me be a little bit more open. It's just like, you know, these things that you think you want for so long, like sometimes they're a little bit different than you think they might be, and so having an open mind like hopefully will serve me well in the Future.

The Nightmare of managing Hannah just kidding, just kidding you, Tory Taylor, political strategist wonder Can extraordinaire.

Thank you for joining us older wonder Can now thank you for having me. What a treat.

Thanks for listening to this candid convo episode of she Pivots. Check back in weekly for more conversations with inspiring women. To learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she pivots the podcast. Leave a rating and comment if you enjoyed this episode to help others learn about it. A special thank you to our partner Marie Claire and the team that made this episode possible. Talk to you

I endorse she Pivots