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Welcome to she Pivots. I'm your host to Emily Tish Sussman. One of my goals in starting this podcast is to highlight voices and stories of women who went through something deeply personal, only to come out of it on the other side better than they could have imagined. After launching she Pivots last year, it's clear it's not a small group. This applies to most women, whether it's a big pivot or even just a tiny pivot. What's clear is there's
still a lot of unpacking to do around pivoting. So as we're continuing to build this platform and community through new episodes, I want to also bring you more stories unfiltered and honest. So I'll be sitting down with more women, maybe the occasional man, some of whom have mastered their own pivot, some are just starting the pivoting journey. Are some just have something to teach us about the deeply personal moments of life. So stay tuned for more of
these candid conversations this season. To celebrate Mother's Day, I'm excited to share my conversation with Emily Oster. She's one of my mom idols and I consume her content religiously. Currently, she is a professor of economics at Brown University, an author of three books, Expecting Better, Crib Sheet and The Family Firm. With her academic background, she uses data to analyze and discuss the choices around pregnancy and parenting. Let's
jump right in Welcome. I'm so excited to be joined by probably the biggest mom influencer, maybe kind of anti influencer in my life, Emily Oster, economist at Brown. Overall
smart lady. One of my friends. Send me your Instagram, which is how I found you, because she was like, here is someone who's actually talking the way that we are taught, like parents of young kids, like the way that we are talking about how the fact that we want our kids in school right now and they're not learning anything with mass on and like we're not anti vaxer's, like you know COVID exists, but like our kids are not learning and like we know that. And the fact
that you were saying it from a factual place. I had never seen anything like it, and I felt like validated my feelings after like two plus years of feeling oh well, I mean five plus years of having kids, I've everyone been like, this is the way you're supposed to do something. This is the like, this is like the best way. Like seeing you say it that way like resonated with me the way that nothing else had. Is that why you started it? No, but that's great to hear.
I guarded doing the kinds of stuff that I'm doing, sort of speaking to parents from this place of data and evidence and facts. When I got pregnant for the first time and I have my oldest one is eleven, she's almost twelve, and so this was now really quite a long time ago, and I got pregnant and I
had a sort of experience. I think in the end, a lot of people turned out to have shared, which is the feeling of frustration that I wasn't being empowered to make the choices and decisions that I thought that I should be part of.
Wait, what do you mean by that? Like in decisions that you should have been a part of.
So there are many decisions that you face in pregnancy, like what kind of prenatal testing should I have? Should I have an epidural? Like you know, can I have a cup of coffee? And many of the ways that the evidence was presented was to sort of like do this or don't do this, Like no, you can't have a cup of coffee, and you'd be like, well, why, I don't know, it's in the rules, or maybe it's okay to have a little don't worry about it.
But I really.
Wanted to understand those things better, and so a lot of the experience of my first pregnancy was sort of trying to work through, using my professional training, trying to work through many of the questions that were coming up while I was pregnant, And then that sort of led to my first book, and that kind of led to the whole whatever my job is now?
I guess, yeah, how do you describe your job now?
So I mean I am I'm a professor, is like, so I teach a brown I have a full time job doing that. What I do that is more visible is I'm I basically I am a writer, so you know, I write books and then I write this newsletter and translate data for people.
How do you think about this public PERSONA part of it, I mean, a part of what I felt so connected to when I found your Instagram is that, like it's just you in real life, Like you're often running when you're like answering questions. How intentional was it that you were like, this is the me that I'm going to put out into the world. Like I keep my personal Instagram. Actually I still keep it private because maybe because I'm
too chaotic for the public. But like, but like I'm just not ready to think about that, like what is my public me? It is an interesting question.
I've been much more deliberate about my kids, So I don't put my kids on Instagram, and we don't have pictures of them and that kind of stuff. And my husband's a pretty private person and so it really is just sort of me. But part of what I have found very valuable about social media, although it has many problems, is this ability to connect, and I think, when done well, letting people see the kind of ways that things are
messy and see your chaos and understand that. Like I wear the same sweatshirt all the time, you know, and if you only saw pictures of me at events, you would be like, wow, that person has different clothes, but actually it's like the same sweat Like for ninety eight percent of the time, I'm dressed in the same thing, and I'm like, you know, trying to make it work. And so I think that kind of authenticity is helpful.
The other thing is I cannot do the job that I do if I have to think and also do social media if I have to think too much about what I am putting up there.
I mean, that's anesoutly like a real question for me, is I mean, I think about this with the superficial mob influence, there's even more like how do you decide when you're going on? Like I feel like if I'm getting through a day, like there are so many days and I feel like, oh my god, we made it to the end of the day, like it was the bare minimum that I could do, Like we just made it through. But like, how do you remember to put things up.
So a good example here is like on Wednesdays, I do these qaas and I do like like I asked people for questions in the morning and then like a few times throughout the day, I like answer a bunch of questions and I literally do those like I have ten minutes between a meeting, and they are totally uncurious and you can see.
Like I'm not. I mean like different weird locations.
Sometimes I try to like find like different angles on my office just like people are.
Like, oh the rice cooker again.
Yeah cool, But you know, I think it is it. It is kind of a way to like bring people along a little bit. But it's also the case that like if I had to curate those, if I had to say, like Okay, I'm going to make sure the lighting is right and like I'm wearing the right makeup. You know, I've organized it so it's like there's music or whatever else, like I just would never be able to do it.
And that's it. Yeah, totally I could never do it. Not do it. I mean the other day you shared I thought was very personal and something I like share
more and less about. But like having gained weight recently, that like for me I had actually I had commented right back to yours and you had posted that, like you had gotten a ton of comments around it that like for me, it was tied to pregnancy, but like an abnormal amount of weight, like I gained like one hundred pounds with my first pregnancy, and then I just had three more, like I had two more pregnancy, So
I just kept it on for five years. And it wasn't actually for me until the lockdown that I was able to focus enough because like I was, like I wasn't pulled in a lot of other directions. I was actually able to focus and like lose it and get
back to where I had been before. But like, it's also made me realize that one I feel like I had, like I went through life as like a reasonably attractive you know, I'm a knock gal, but like you know, like people responded to me as like reasonably attractive person and then gaining weight so quickly and ramping up afterwards. I felt like I had a very different experience in the workplace. I was on TV the whole time, like as like a different weight, and it was hard for
me not to want to go back to that. You know, I wasn't as healthy and like I didn't feel as good, but also from like a pure vanity perspective that we can be as body positivity as we want, and we should be and we can be. But like I had a different experience moving through the world.
I think what was interesting about posting that was that it came I think, in some ways very much from the same kind of place of kind of like recognizing that I not that I should be happy, but just that it like from a place of body positivity, like I would like to be comfortable, and I rationally understand that like this is actually not a big deal and that it is not something that I should be thinking about.
And you know, I spend a lot of time and like I talked to Virginia Stiul Smith a lot, like Jess a friend of mine, and so I sort of understand that, and yet it is still the case that like I feel bad, and I think that that that was I think the piece that resonated, just the feeling of like, it's not that this is a problem and I and the messages I got were not people saying like, oh, you look great, because actually it's completely not any of
the point. It's this feeling of like, well that isn't this is bothering me in a way that I wish it was not. And I think that was the thing that resonated.
Totally, was that, like the big the general response you got back to being like yes, I wish like I wish I didn't care, but I do care, or like just yes I feel like this and I know that I shouldn't care, but I do and it bothers me. Yeah, totally.
I felt like I got so I was on TV as a political commentator, like when I was gaining weight, when I was on the whole time, and I got a comment back from a producer when I was like, so I had just gone back from eternity by just gone back on TV, and a comment from a producer to my agent saying, you know, if Emily doesn't look a little better, it's gonna be hard for us to book her.
Oof.
I know it was so brutal and like, to be fair, I look.
Back in the horrible that's like that did kind of well, that's hard.
That I did also look like a mess, but that's because like not my clo fin like I was a mess. I looked very I don't.
Know I don't approve of that at all.
Well, I really appreciate that support, but no, it was like the I looked like a mess because I was a mess, and like it was the hardest thing for
me to hear in that moment. It took me multiple more years than to have the brain space to be able to actually feel like I could focus on it, and like, like weight does fluctuate, Like it fluctuates all the time, like depending on the weather, and like if I'm going to a lot of kids' birthday parties, like I will get down with that cold pizza more definitely more than any other child in the room.
Yeah, it means a really complicated space because I think there's been so much move towards sort of trying to accept that like this is that that kind of comment is just totally not okay, and that in fact, like we do need to move to a place where like we are not fetishizing thinness and the way that we have in the past.
I think that's like really.
Important, but it is also hard when you have spent your whole life getting to there to be like, wow, that's that's fine. Actually what's interesting is for me, like doing all this running has in some ways, like been quite good because it is very clear that like correctly nourishing oneself is important for running fast. I run like not to be thinner, but to go fast and like run fast and so so that has been very helpful.
And even though it is often associated with like, oh, runners have a lot of eating issues, that is that is true for me, It's actually almost the opposite. And the other response I got to that post was so my friends were runners who were like, but you're running PRS, Like who cares?
Which I was like, very it was like very nicely.
One of my friends, a professional runner, was like, but you're running PRS, so who cares?
Another Okay, well, Molly says it probably I love So. I actually also started running in the last couple of years, Like it was part of my like get back into shape was to start running. And I run for exactly the opposite reason. I am the slowest, sloppiest runner, the slowest. I'm real slow. I have to tell you, like the height of my running. I did my first, my second five K that I've ever done. I did one like
ten years ago. I did it locally, and I still needed to do like an entire Broadway Show album to make Me Through, like to get through a five K, Like I am so slow, But that's not at all what it's about. Like it's about me being outside and being able to work out. Like my kids are still six four and two, so like a lot of touching, a lot of mommy if I'm paying adequate attention to one and the other two are like, well I better get in throw something like I better do something pretty
extreme to get that dominated attention. So like working out outside is actually the only way that I can work out and have a clear head. So like that's more what it's about for me. But if I gave myself the metric of running fast, it would become the most depressing thing I did that day. Yeah, it's interesting.
I mean I think it's like I'm like running has been very many things for me, including what you describe, and I think now my kids are older, it's like a little bit easier to be like, Okay, well maybe I can try to like go faster, and then I'm gotting I'm old, so it's like hard to go faster.
But I interviewed Alison Felix. Ah, yes, I'm not as fast as Alison Felix. I'm not that's not a goal that I'm in corporating. I'm not trying to get towards. My dream for that interview was that we would do it in person and then we would running. Yeah, like I would be the real life version of that meme. That's like the Olympics would be a lot better if we could see a regular person run alongside them. She
passed on that I'm amazing, amazing, I'm disappointing. It's gonna be a real shock to everyone that she did not want to run against me. But I did like everything I possibly could when I was in LA to nail her down. Like they're like, oh, Alison's really busy this week. I was like, but I just I just needed to run like a little like just her yard, like just
the legs of the block. And they were not interested. Shockingly, So what do you feel, like, what do you want people who are following to take away from like all the content that you're putting out.
So the main thing, ultimately I want people to take away is a better understanding of data and how data can be helpful in making decisions. And I think that that's huge amount of what I do in my newsletter writing and my book writing is kind of that piece of it is like you saw this scary study. So like a good example is like I got a million
DMS emails whatever. When the Washington Post the other day was like ultra processed foods give you a varying cancer, and like don't eat breakfast cereal is there's a lot of that that comes through. You know, I will of course write about that and talk about that in the newsletter and explain why that's you know, like hot garbage. But what I would like is for when people where I want to get to is when people see that
they don't have to send it to me. They're just like, oh, Emily's already told me the like observational studies are bad, and I can look at this table and realize that this paper is really flawed, and so I'm just going to move on with my life.
That's like where I want to get to.
Yeah, And so what I'm doing is sort of moving.
I'm trying to move in that direction.
I think part of what we're trying to combine, and you know, this is still very much a kind of work and progress is sort of how do you bring people along on that and make it not like a class on econometrics. I know how to teach a class at economicis I'm a job, you know, I've totally but people don't want to take that class.
That's a requirement actually at my university.
So we need to like figure out how do you how do I bring people in so they can see some of that, so that content starts getting into people's heads and helps people move forward.
It helps you make better decisions.
But also it's like and relatable and they're sort of they feel like they're getting it from somebody who they trust and are willing to come along a little bit with the with the econometrics.
So that's the balance. I mean, it's such an interesting parenting lens on the problem with disinformation now that like we don't know which sources to trust, we don't know
what is a real study. There was a huge I don't know, like you're going back to COVID, but like there was a huge fight in my school last year among the parents because the school put in a vaccine mandate once they approved the five to twelve and there was a big movement of parents who were pulling out studies saying that the vaccine caused problems in kids that
they were not willing to subject their parents to. We had a parent who works as like a biomedical engineer, and so she went through study by study and she was like, not one of these studies would hold up in any way. So we had our own Emily. I guess like resident and expert. I'm probably more of an expert, yes, in the mechanics. But interestingly, the parents that were reading the studies were not interested in what she had to say,
like they did not respect her as an expert. So I think, like, who is the expert is a huge part of the problem.
I agree, And I think one of the things we saw very much during COVID was sort of people glomming on to their own experts and sort of their own I'm going to follow this expert or I'm going to sort of be following this person.
I think part of what we're trying to do.
A little bit in this space is sort of think about people as not that people are their own experts, but that there is a component of some of these kind of parenting decisions in particular, And I wouldn't put vaccines necessarily in this category, but that for many kinds of parenting decisions, there's a piece of the data where you really want to understand that and sort of use
it productively. But also that some of these decisions are really driven by your own preferences, and so there's a sense in which, like the data is sort of empowering you to make a choice that works for you. But you know, I think that when we come to something like vaccines and we're sort of up against people listening to disinformation in a way that is not.
That is not always so helpful. Yeah, well, I so appreciate that. I was so freaked out about getting pregnant, and so freaked out as in, once I was pregnant, I thought, oh my god, I have no understanding of what is happening to my body, what is happening inside didn't be Like nothing I have done in my life has prepared me for this moment that I actually ran away from. Like I didn't read a book, I didn't go to a class. I'm like the opposite.
I was like, I have right now.
I was like I got to write a book about this, Like this is I'm like leaning in, We're gonna do it all. I leaned out. I was like, I won't ignite. I actually went into labor two weeks early with my first I didn't have a bag packed. We didn't go to the hospital for hours. I walked the dogs while I was having contractions. I was like, let's just see if we can ignore this and it'll go away. I was on CNN the day that I went into labor because I was like, I was like, they told me
it's two weeks. I have to It's how it works, right, Like it's a calendar, get totally booked TV totally. I was like, not a prop. I think. I was like on the way to the hospital, like texting, like canceling my hit that day because I was like, oh, I have two weeks that they say it's two weeks. It's two weeks, right, Like I didn't know anything, but I do feel like I feel like the way that you present the information, so like I'm not really an overreactor. And my husband is even less so than me. And
it's funny. So when I say that to other moms, the response they always give me is like, oh, well, it's good to have you know, like that balance, And I'm like, no, no, I'm not an overreactor. Like neither of us react and like, maybe in not a great way, but I do feel like it's made me more confident in my parenting because I did trust my gut to some degree, although it may be very depressed from any For the first couple of years, I didn't know what
I was doing. But I feel like finding your voice as an expert has helped give me confidence in that that like I drank coffee the whole time, I had wine the whole time, I didn't try to sleep in bed and my kids I wanted to sleep, like I didn't really think about it. So I feel like being able to trust that I had something in there and like I wouldn't call it maternal instinct, I still feel like I have very little of that, but that I
could trust my decisions. It wasn't mine, I guess is the points you're making.
Yeah, And I think that phrasing of sort of trusting your decisions, I think that is a huge piece of confident parenting. A lot of what brings up anxiety for those of us who are not very relaxed like you is the feeling like we're doing it wrong. And I think that often comes from sort of hearing other people and maybe not feeling like we've thought through our decisions enough.
And then somebody says they're doing something different, and rather than saying, well, I thought about this decision and I'm confident that this is the right choice for me, we sort of move into a place of oh my gosh, maybe I'm doing it wrong, and I think about how to do it differently, and should I change everything that
I'm doing. And some of what we're trying to deliver is is that confidence of you know, yeah, there are a lot of good choices, and you made the choice that's good for you, and that's great, and now you can just move forward. And if somebody else made a different choice, it doesn't mean your choice is wrong. Just means that they made a different choice. And people make different choices. Yeah, I think that's it. Like, it doesn't mean that your choice is wrong. It doesn't mean that
their choice was wrong. It's just like, what is going to work?
And by the way, I feel like I don't want to give this perception that I'm like I was like such a relaxed especially of younger kids. Nah, I get it right. It was more than I was like overwhelmed by it and so I just like couldn't let it seep in because I felt like I was doing it wrong all the time. Especially with little babies, it's hard to know if you're doing it wrong, like oh, they're just gonna cry a little and it'll be fine, or
if you're doing it wrong. I mean, this is like a real thing that happened last week, is that I was like, Oh, my two year old's cut seems like it's getting kind of bad, so I should maybe be concerned about it. And so I sent a picture to the pediatrician and she called me back immediately and she was like, you need to go to the hospital. And I was like, ah, yes, still knocking out it of the park with my gut instinct parenting decisions.
I once cut my finger really badly and I got stitches, and then I sort of woke up.
This is not the LONGNGO. I like woke up in the morning one morning.
He was like, oh, it looks a little more swollen than it did. And I texted like five o' the morning, four were running. I like texted a picture of my doctor, who fortunately is also my friend, and she called me at like five point fifteen and she was like yeah, geat, I go to the hospital right now. I was like, okay, She's like, I'm calling you because I didn't want to freak you out with my text, but like, please get in the car right now.
I'm going off. Yeah, don't you love those You're like, okay, You're like my real chill approach to this that's infected backfire just a little bit. When I went to go meet with our local because I did. I met with our local assembly member about our local housing issues. They tried to give me directions to where they are and I was like, oh, no, no, no, I know exactly
where you are. You are in the same building as the only dermatologists who will see children because my children had impetigo passing it between each other for eight weeks last year, the never ending poetic So that's bad. That's bad. Yeah. I was like, so, I'm extremely familiar with your location. I've been there many many times. In that case, I was like, but like I only started taking to them to the doctor once. I was like, we're going into month two. Should we be concerned? Like now we got
to like go do something, Yeah, we should. I think it was after I kept trying to send my kids to school, and this school kept sending them home that I was like, I guess it's time to see a doctor. I guess we've hit that time. So where do you want to? You know, we connected through this great friend of ours, Marissa Lee, who's written an incredible book, Reef Is Love. That was really interesting to me that you were guys were talking about doing an event together and
talking together. Given both of your like individual platforms. Where's that a conversation that you're you're looking to take?
Yeah, I mean I think that we'll conversations always go in directions, But I think that what she and I have talked about is the sort of challenge of parenting
when you were grieving. And you know, I lost my mom last year, which is actually when she and I first connected, partly because her book is so amazing and she's just like, like lovely, and there were many very hard things about losing a parent, and one of them is that you have to kind of keep going with your kids in a moment in which you kind of just want mom but she dead, And that feeling of
like how do I keep going with my kids? And loss of a parent, I think is something many of us will experience, but there are other things in that category.
You know, people have a miscarriage or like a God forbid a loss of a partner, Like they just that there are many things that happen, many pieces of grief, where as a parent you have to keep going, and I think that some of sort of talking through what can one do there and how can we sort of help people think about the right way to come at that for themselves.
And I think that applies to parenting across the board. Like obviously they're in a very intense and extreme way when it's something very you know, rocking to your core, like the loss of a parent or a death that's
been very human. But I also feel like when people say that kids have made them feel another side of themselves or like explored another side of themselves and more resilient in themselves, that's a piece of it as well, Like there are so many moments when all I want to do is curl in the ball reflect block out the world, and my kids are sensing something and want more of me in that moment, Like the strength to rise to the occasion for them, I think is not
something that I had necessarily before I had kids old enough to need it. Yeah, no, I totally I resonate with that as well. Is there anything else that you want to leave our listeners with Just that data is great and that you two can use data in your parenting. And I think that it's part of confidence.
But just helping people think about, you know, being confident in the choices that they make is a big piece of.
What I want to be setting out in the world. I love that. And we have a lot of people who are pivoting careers. Any data based advice for them, I don't think it's any database advice. I think that the decision making advice is pivoting careers is great and just thinking through those hard decisions in a kind of structured way and making sure that you're kind of thinking about the angles before you make choices. That's my main thought. I love it. Thank you so much, Emily, thanks for
joining us. Thank you so much. This is a treat. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this candid convo episode of sheep Pivots. Check back in weekly for more conversations with inspiring women. To learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she pivots. The podcast she Pivots is hosted by me Emily Tish Sussman, produced by Emily eda Veloshik, with sound editing and mixing from Nina Pollock, and research and planning for Christine Dickinson and Hannah Cousins.
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