Brooke Shields: Finding Agency in Her Own Freedom

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The moment you start to truly have agency and have independence, it threatens many of the systems that have worked for a lot of people around you.

Welcome to She Pivots. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. I first met Brookes Shield at the Marie Claire Power Trip talking about her company Beginning is Now, which encapsulates so much of what she Pivots is about.

There's a resilience and a strength and women, and they're often not told that it's okay to show it when they show it. We're not taught that as you get older you can be more confident, strong, or sexier every stage of your life.

As a new Beginning, I immediately wanted to have her on the show, but that was almost a year and a half ago, and with the release of her documentary Pretty Baby, I've learned so much about her life and how she fought to pivot away from a narrative that was defined for her since her childhood.

You've been famous all your life. You were practically born famous.

In nineteen eighty eleven major magazine covers in eleven months. She's also rapidly becoming one of the movies most sought after Stars and has received the nineteen eighty People's Choice Award as Favorite Young Performer. So please welcome Brookshield.

From dealing with her alcoholic mother who was over controlling but love Brooke deeply.

Because not only is my mom my mom, but she is also my manager.

Were crazy and drove her to be better.

If you are a child of an alcoholic, it defines you to a certain extent, so there's extreme highs and lows, and my mom's alcoloholism was a battle that she never.

Won to later finding her way closer to her own voice and agency through her time at Princeton.

Prior to university, I had sort of one life and was very active in it, and then wasn't even sure if I wanted to continue in the industry. When I finished school, I took about a year off and really thought about it, as.

What did you think about doing?

I wasn't sure.

Then, after years of work, she slowly learned how to redefine her success and find her own narrative.

Had I not decided to really, for lack of a better way of saying it, just go for it to it that I would never know. You know, success is a very relative concept, mean person's version of successes could be completely different than another. And to me being able to really commit to what I want and what I believe in as an actress and see where that takes me well professionally, I'm gonna I was at a crossroads and sort of still am, just coming into a new place in my own life and in my own career.

Finding a new definition of success was a huge motivator in starting this podcast. Brooks story truly blew me away. She started modeling as a baby and had been in the spotlight ever since. Despite every obstacle or rumor about her, she overcame the noise and found her own path and her own voice. So I usually started these interviews asking about people's childhoods and what they wanted to be when they what they thought they wanted to be. But you were already in it, and we've seen a lot of

I just didn't know anything else.

I mean, I was nine when I made my first movie, and you know it's like kids grow up playing sports.

That was my sport.

Yeah, I was put into that arena and that was my sport.

That was my hobby.

Thank you.

I did my first job with him, did you how old were you?

Eleven months?

Eleven months? That was what I did during my summer breaks. But I didn't realize how much I loved it. Not the modeling so much. I mean, the modeling was whatever it was. It just it was sort of a thing and you did it and we got to pay the rent. And but the acting part and the performance aspect as other people, I don't.

Think I knew how much I.

Thrived on it and needed it until I stepped away from it.

I mean, even as a child, you brought so much. I don't know what the right acting word is, like realness, Like it's authenticity to your roles of what were you drawing from as a child and a teenager to be in these roles.

I don't think I was drawing from much. I mean I think if I was drawing from anything, it would not have been personal experience.

It would have been.

Fellini movies and beautiful French actresses who just seemed like they were badass and they could walk into a room and nobody was going to mess with them, and this sort of larger than life. It was so affected by European films and by spending time in Europe, and it was just a very different sensibility. But I think when I look back, and I really have only ever really looked back at Louis Man because he's just, I think, the one, true, true, true, true, true artists that I've

Well, I feel like that applies to so many things, not just in acting, but across the board in reacting, that we should trust our instincts from being a child and go back to it. Like, I feel like that could apply in so many contexts.

It definitely does.

I mean, I think it does in parenting as well. If you're willing to get out of your own way and get to know your children in a way where you know them probably better than most people. If you listen to them, and if you ask them, they have nothing. Really, they haven't had stuff undone yet. Yeah, you know, and all the while putting it in a four I'm at that allows them to go out into the world and know that there are there are rules, and there are consequences, and there are all these things.

But how they feel about it.

But what I said to my daughters is like, yes, you confide in me, you get angry at me, you can yell at me, rage at me. Then you need me all of these things. But I cannot be fully objective because I.

Love you so much.

So what happens is either I'm going to try to fix it, which I've gotten better at not doing all the time, or I'm going to try to give you tough love when I need it. But I was like, you need to be able to complain about me to somebody. Yeah, somebody who can give you constructive criticism or give you or just be an ear. I was like, you can't just complain to your friends about me, because it's not going to be helpful to you, but.

Also a sign of good parenting that you and your kids are talking about with your therapist. Yeah, so I've seen you and your older daughter together, and I feel like you guys have a really good peer dynamic as well as mother daughter dynamic.

It's become a healthy dose of that. I don't want to try to be a nineteen year old again. And I see people do that, or I see it's hard. You know, we kind of covet what they are because we used to be that, yeah at the beginning of the story, and everything's perky and flush and great, and you know, and they've got everything to look forward to, and you kind of go fun of a bitch, really, but I don't want to chase it, you know, I

That full balance yet, but I think it all happen. Yeah.

You know, I've never spent any time being a horrible teenage daughter, and so when my daughters are horrible.

Teenage daughters, I'm like, I don't understand this. It's foreign to me.

But you know, they don't have to take care of me, right, And when I see them starting to go down that road in any way, I just pull back and go, I am not for you to parent. I am the parent. I do not want to put this on you. I don't know if it's just daughters or just whatever, but whenever I've seen that start to happen in any way where I get insecure and I need their validation for something, I just always have to put the brakes on and say, Nope, I am not irresponsibility.

You're making me think about where I put myself in our relationship with my kids, because I think that a positive that I've gotten out of parenting that I didn't expect is that it's unlocked. It's like sillier part of me that I had kind of tucked away in adulthood, and I find so fun. And it's been like, Okay, now we're dance partying, like now we're playing grocery store and like getting super into it. But I'm partly doing it because they like it, because I'm partly doing it.

Because I like it.

Right, I was an only child with my mom, and then I had my father's whole fan which was just very very different experience and.

Very great to have both.

But it's we are a really fun household because we laugh a lot. That is something I did retain from my mother, Like we used to laugh all the time, and she was silly, but I had to sort of be more the adult. So now with my friends, I will be more joyous around them and silly around them.

And the things that my father.

Other parents don't necessarily bother me because the kids, you.

Know what I mean.

Yeah, but I mean the interviews that you did starting young, you were so poised. Did you have coaching around doing media interviews?

Like oh god, no, no, no, no, no, no, I mean I think it was just they were not as important to me, and their questions were not as important to me as protecting my mother was. So like you sit in like when I see those I mean, they're sort of rather heartbreaking.

And yet sweet and also you kind of want.

To say, like, good for you, kid, because you didn't let them throw you at all. Yeah, but I wasn't scared of them because I deep down I don't think I was respecting them. I don't think I respected these adults because they were supposed to be in positions of power in intellectual ways, and they just kept asking the same stupid questions.

So I was like, oh, here we go again.

You know, I just got so sort of immune to it, but also wanted to be a good girl.

What became really clear to me and was eye opening to me through the documentary is that this whole narrative, this whole media narrative around you was formulating in the country and you were the symbol of this like young sexualization. And what I got from Pretty Baby was that you weren't really aware of it, like you just kept going through these interviews.

Oh, I wasn't aware of it at all.

I was completely shut off too, because I was home and in bed and did my homework, and we lived in New York.

It was just my mom and I.

We would go off Chinese food and then we would maybe watch I Love Lucy or something like that, and then get to bed and go to school the next day. And so it was like this really strange. I shut myself off to it, like it just didn't exist.

How does someone who is sexually inexperienced, a twelve year old girl get into the mindset to do a seduction scene?

What experience do you draw on?

There is an almost scandalous sensuality to Brookshields. So stay with us for a not so innocent evening upstairs at Zee. Now, now all of this is added up into now that you were perceived and have been for the last couple years as a sex symbol.

How did you relate to that?

That's another one of the things that I don't even.

Think about it.

Do you think your mom was aware of it, that there was a whole national conversation about your sexualization as a teenager.

I think she buried her head in the sand a lot about a lot of it.

I think I think she just my.

Mom didn't think a lot about consequences to anything. She reacted. She was never really fully sober. She wanted me to.

Be adored, and if that.

Meant I mean, she always used to say sex sel. It was always an advertising being a model with sort of her ticket out of Newark, and she saw the power in her own beauty. And then she had this baby that was everything to her. She didn't exist after that baby was born, and so it almost didn't matter. She would say, it doesn't matter what they're saying about you, as long as they're talking about you. So I just don't think she gave it any thought.

There was never a place.

There was never will do this and then maybe you'll follow up that with maybe a theater production. And she wouldn't listen to any agents, any managers, anybody that wanted to come in and sort of take my career. She was like, oh no, that meant removing her and that was never going to happen. So on the one hand, she was putting me out there, but then on the other hand, she didn't want to lose me, so she had to keep me really tethered. And I think that

You were really at a high point in career when you decided to go to college, which wasn't necessarily traditional in the industry. Did you feel like you were trying to get away from the entertainment industry.

I wasn't trying to get away from it, because I loved it and I just wanted to be in it. But I didn't want it to take away from me, and I didn't want it to steal college from me. And I didn't want it to steal you know. And remember I always went to regular schools. You go there that first day, and when I was little, it didn't

Were like, what, why do you Why are you and Brooke friends?

And we have complete opposite lives, And I mean, she's in finance. And I looked at the little girl and I said, oh, I said, your mom did not want to like me at first, I said, but I beat her down.

I said, I beat her down, and I did it with humor.

That's the way I approached things because I was always at a disadvantage. It was always me against the world or them. So instead of giving it all away and being so isolated and lonely, I would charge forward to it.

It sounded like it took a while in college and that at one point you wanted to leave, but your mom actually encouraged you to stay.

It is the most selfless, scared thing I think she's ever done. And I think it was the beginning of a demise for her because she was letting go.

But I will say I.

Appreciate it so much because I was so homesick the entire first semester. I was sick about being away from home. I had never known that type of discomfort before because I wasn't working and I wasn't with my mom, the two constant things for my entire eighteen years. And I was like, Mom, I can't handle this. I have nothing in comment with with my roommates and everything is a mess. And I like to order, and I liked neatness, and that was part of my sort of OCD way of

I was like, you know, I had obsessive tendencies.

Because it kept my world in order. Then I get to college and there's just no order at all, and everything's sticky and it's beer, and it's like I was like, this is a jungle up here, and I just cried all the time. I made her come out. She's like, look, i'll come out there every Wednesday and take you to dinner. You can come home Friday. And after doing that for a while and knowing that home was still home and she was waiting for me, and then I started kind

Going to college. I've always wanted to go to and university.

I've thought about it ever since I was younger.

I've always wanted to go to Princeton.

Her dream came true in nineteen eighty three and she was admitted to Princeton. Yet, despite the career demand, she's an a student, a member of the Triangle Club, drama society, and a good friend to her classmates. Recently, she shared the line.

When you were in college and auditioning for the theater group,

We've been talking a lot about this sort of positioning, and I think you're either one type of person or you or the other. You know, you either approach it from that way or you do rest on your laurels because it's easier or because if things are given to you to a certain extent. I think I'd seen a

You know.

It started off as, Oh, you think I'm just a dowb actress who's gotten a free ride here, So you know, I'm going to prove to you that I'm going to get straight a's. And I saw them look at my grades when they were posted, you know, and they would look at theirs and look at mine, and I thought, okay, they need that for them. It almost had nothing to do with me, and so I was like, oh God,

School everything you expect.

It's more than I've expected. Really, it went past being academically wonderful. I mean it provided an entire social area of my life. I mean, I have friends that I know I will have for the rest of my life, and I throw up my own age and I'm happy with them, and.

I feel comfortable. You didn't tell me how you did in your grades this year. I did very well. I just got my grades back. You can tell me straight a, are you yeah, Princeton?

Straight a?

You wrote a book in college, so you know, you went into college, you were living a real college life, forming that identity and experience for yourself. And then this book you talked about the fact that you were still a virgin, and it brought your sexuality back into the national conversation.

It was not the intention that it was so not the intention. What pissed me off about that book was that that first chapter that I actually penned. These amazing English classes I was taking, I was taking French literature classes. I was doing all of this psychology and philosophy and all these unbelievable places for me to find opinions in my own psyche. And I brought all of that. Maybe I was I wasn't trying to be lofty. I was proud of my thoughts were kind of forming in and

Do you believe in premierental psychles you feel strongly about maintaining your virginity?

You know I'm going to go right here, well only be I have to get not nasty, but I have to get I personally ask.

You the virginity question.

I'm a little puzzled.

It was so like I was like, Wow, they're not really interested in stuff with any depth. And you know, so many kids came up to me and said thank you. Parents came up to me and said thank you. Your honesty about everything from drugs to virginity too. Everything was just so helpful because it started conversations for me and my children that sort of set a precedent because I thought, Okay, the written word can carry a message that you wish

You wrote in a later book, the moment I slept with Dean, who was your boyfriend at the time, was the moment I left my mother. I chose him and I felt this, and I'm sure she did as well. So even at the time, did you see that as like a pivot point for your agency.

No, because I.

Fed carried with it's such guilt, and I just I just thought the world was going to know. And I was a fallen woman, and you know, I mean, it was such a shame because I've done movies about young love and the beauty of them and the freshness of it, and that just the beauty of falling in love for the first time, and I was so in love with them, and yet that whole part of me was just shut down and it was a shame.

I think it was a lost opportunity.

But it was the minute I remember thinking, oh, I've just left my mother.

I'm less her little girl and her friend more her business partner as.

Well, because once that happened, I think to her and her Psyche, she lost control of me. Someone had more power over me, and that was devastating to her. I mean, the ameshment for her was so much, even worse than it was for me. Because I was at the beginning of things in my life.

Right do you remember when that turned into your own agency, not just over your body and your personal life, but over your career as well, since your mother had had so much control in that aspect.

I would love to say there weren't years in between that happening. I mean, I think what happened was I needed to do it intellectually first, so you know, you have that experience.

But then I.

Still had years of college during which to get to know myself. And once it started with opinions. I have opinions about things. I have instincts about people, I have instincts about situations.

And I was in an.

Environment where you've got some of the greatest minds in the world looking at you and saying, what do you think about this? Let's talk about what you think is important. And that was such a novel experience for me that I got like addicted to it, right, But then that was only in the education field. Right then I had to come back out into sort of my real life. And I say that facetiously, and all of a sudden, people didn't want that.

They didn't want the new me, they wanted the old me.

The one that had no opinions and just smiled and nodded and did what everyone said.

And it worked for me. Then, do you know what I mean?

I got approval, so it wasn't uncomfortable for me coming out of it. I thought, Okay, I've done this intellectually, How the hell am I going to do it in my life?

At this point, Brooke had a degree from Princeton, countless movies and magazines under her belt, and was still struggling to find work.

I wasn't getting work, so I wasn't getting a chance to exercise my talent and get strong longer with that, and I was not physically in good a good place, and so I thought, Okay, I've done it intellectually to a certain extent, I don't want to lose that. What do I have control over? And at that point I still didn't. I didn't feel like I had control over my career. Certainly didn't feel like I had control over my mother because she was so far in a bad place by then that that I felt helpless.

There, I felt helpless.

So I just became sort of focused on myself physically. So I took Dan's class for four or five hours a day. I went to acting class, I studied, I went deeper into therapy and just committed myself to getting stronger physically. So I had the physical, I had the intellectual, and I just needed to work on my psyche, you know.

And it just took time.

It took into my probably when I went on tour with Greece as a rizzo, because I went on tour by myself. I'd never traveled by myself before and was performing in front of thousands of people and scared out of my mind, and I did it.

I was gracing the has graced the covers of thousands of magazines, now making a Broadway debut in Greece and getting raised good for he Is book shales everybody.

And I came out of it with people saying good job. And it took hard work, and so I sort of had to chip away at everything so that I could find what was always there to begin with.

But that I couldn't hear right.

What I took away from the documentary at this point was that you went into a relationship with your ex with Andre for many years and then eventually married, and it seemed at that point that there was maybe some sort of like moving for you of like under control from your mother to under control from him, like he kind of filled that void, and that was like the process of moving into your own agency.

And it also he was the first person who said, you know, if you really want to be an actress, you're complaining that you're not getting any work, and you're sad about it, and you're empty, you feel terrible. Why are you sitting in New York City without an agent or a manager. You've got to go back and get out on a limb. And in a way, I was doing what I had done in college, but I had

During our interview, Brooke revealed that there were problems beyond being unable to land a movie. She was struggling to stay afloat financially.

The really interesting thing and it didn't make the documentary. But my best friend from high school brought this up to me because I left, I went out to LA I sort of morphed into his.

Life, but he was helping me.

He was helping me get back on my feet financially because I needed to sell houses and I didn't know how to sell a house, and I didn't how to balance my money, and I didn't none of this.

You know.

My mom never even learned herself. It was like all went into a big pot and we kept buying houses, and all of a sudden I found I was in a position with no capital whatsoever, and.

Like seven places of real estate.

And my ex said, you got to sell one to pay off the other to sell to it, and you don't need this, and you don't need this, and you're not going to be needing this, and you need to scale down, liquidate, get back on your feet with that. So it buys you freedom to audition and do all that. And that sort of was just the beginning for me of finding agency and just being able to survive and live.

I mean, I don't know if he would.

Ever articulate it that way, but it happened again and I thought, oh, this is really interesting. The moment you start to truly have agency and have independence. It threatens many of the systems that have worked for a lot of people around you, and in this documentary.

Is the same thing. It sort of ignited this thing.

Yeah, I mean I remember when that that episode of Friends aired. It was I mean, it was groundbreaking. You were so funny. I remember when I rewatched it in the documentary. I remembered the way I felt the first time I saw it because it was so funny and we didn't expect it from you, like you were so

Thank you.

You know, that's something that people have really been taking away from the documentary, and it was so familiar to me that I call it the broadcast news. Do you remember when Holly Hunter unplugs the phone to cry really quickly, and then she plugs the one back in.

I lived my life so much like.

That, where temper your joy because it's too much for people like that moment to me was so important because all through rehearsal they didn't let me do the crazy and I was so frustrated, and I was like, God, I know they know better, they're the ones in charge, but thank god, I have to do this.

I have to do this. And they said no, no, no. I was like, just do what they say.

Just you're lucky to be here, be thankful to shut up, do the line and leave like it was just it was so familiar to me. And then when we did the second pass and they let me do it because they had gotten what they wanted in the can, so they felt safe going for it.

The second time.

And it was just met with I mean, there was shock at the moment in the audience because that's when we had live audiences. And then it was like this uproar, and then the scene was over and I just was like, oh, what just happened. There was something divine about it, you know, And to go back into the dressing room, and he was embarrassed by my behavior, even though he knew it was in the script. To this day, I don't know what the trigger was. I mean, I'm sure it went

And that's exactly what.

I did, given that you had in some ways gone from your mother's world into Andre's world, and then you took this moment to say this is my life, like this is my story and I'm going to write it. Do you feel like maybe the end of that marriage was like a bigger going out on your own moment for you then kind of moving away from your mother?

Absolutely, I mean it was. It was so significant because you know, there's all these silly metaphors, but it's like I had gotten the Brass Ring like it was mine and I got my own show, and I thought, you are nobody is going to take this away from me, and I refuse, this is mine, this is my time right now, I'm doing this and I love it so much that I'm going to commit a thousand percent every day. You know, Andre had really helped me separate from my

So I think that that day.

The next day, when I was asked if I wanted to be on my own show, I was really just I thought, Okay, not going to let anybody hold me down, not my mother, not my husband. I'm going to try to embrace it all. But I'm going to not lose sight of this. This is a chance to really show and be where you feel like you want to and deserve and can be, you know. And it was just joyous, real, all right.

And your choice for favorite female performer in a new television series is.

Brookshields. For suddenly some day.

You have the feeling that people are taking you seriously now who didn't before, who somehow looked on Brookshields as almost a character, a creature they didn't really know, but didn't know had any talent other than she'd gone to Princeton. She was bright, she'd gotten a degree in Princeton, but they didn't know what she had other than that modeling thing.

Very much so, and that's that that perception, whether it was a projection or not, whether it was media hype, whether it was from a role or from is very understandable. People were confused about me, and I think to a certain extent that's that's understandable. But now they at least have something more tangible to judge, and what they come away with is now more legitimate. They can see it and say if they like it or if they don't

What is something that you saw as a negative or a low point in your life, but now in hindsight you really see it as having launched you.

I think it all God, every negative thing that happened allowed something else to I'm into my life.

I don't have regret like that.

Like I just think, even thinking about all the negativity that surrounded my early early career, even that although it was painful and it was hard for me to grapple and understand it hard for me not to take personally, gave me such strength over the course of my life.

So it's I.

Mean, of many, like many jobs that I've gotten rejected from, and you think, oh, it's the worst thing in the world, and then you find yourself doing something else and it's a revelation to you, you know.

So, And I'm not like a Pollyanna.

It's just shit happens and there's nothing you can do about it, you know. I mean, losing my first baby was probably the worst thing that I could have ever imagined happening, and then you realize how common it is, and then it allowed me to.

Have my other children.

Not going into detail, but like it actually afforded me the ability to be able to have children, which is you don't always learn why it's positive, you know, sometimes you never learn it. But I do think that every negative thing that's happened has just if at the very least, afforded me knowledge about how much of a fighter I am.

You know, and that's a self affirming Yeah.

When you wrote your book down Comes the Rain about your postpartum depression, it ignited a massive national conversation about depression, about the state of motherhood if postpartum depression existed as you were still going through it, which I can't. I can't imagine.

Act as a new mother.

Brookshields is being attacked by Tom Cruise.

The issue for me was really about the children.

Just one month after his infamous couch meltdown, Tom is targeting Brook.

The thing that I'm saying about Brook is that she doesn't understand there.

Was a real change that affected my chemistry. There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. It's part of depression.

Sex between thirteen to twenty percent of women after giving work.

I mean, it's just kind of one of many times in your life that by you opening up about your personal experiences, you have ignited a national conversation. What kind of emotional toll does that take on you.

I don't think I intended ever to ignite anything bigger than my own truth, so that I could own it and that my kids could have the power of knowledge, you know, So I don't I never set out to say, like I'm going to change the world. But the way I do things is I just I'm so accountable to my actions, good or bad, that when things really knock me on my head, I have to understand them and I have to find out why, and I have to say, like, why is this happening?

What does it mean? I can't let it kill me. I can't let it.

It's like I It's just it's the way I go into things because I hate losing, you know what I mean, Like I hate I hate giving up. I guess that's it. Not losing so much, because I've lost plenty, but like I hate giving up. I hate being on the bench. I hate because you know, secretly, I did it more for myself and for my children, but I knew that it could help somebody because there was nothing out there for me to read to feel better myself, and so I thought, I cannot be the only person in the

Do you think you'll pivot again?

Absolutely? Absolutely, I'm so excited. The miracle of all of.

This to me, this documentary and this like in depth analysis of just like twenty four to seven meters, which is a lot.

Is there's more to come, Like I can't.

Believe that I'm still so excited for my future. And I'm going to do a movie in Thailand for seven weeks.

You know. I've started my own.

Company all about pivots and beginnings and for women over forty. Look at anybody, the guy on the street, you meet, you know, and they've all had a now what moment?

Multiples.

You don't get into college, you don't here, you don't whatever, you're divorced, or you get a diagnose, whatever those things are. And I love hearing people how they processed and how they decided to pivot and to move through it. There is more, you know, and I'm thrilled that I'm not shut off.

To any of it. So I will, I hope I pivot many more times.

Brook, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you.

Brooke lives in New York with her husband and two daughters. Brooke continues to further the conversation for women over forty with her company, Beginning is Now through her work she has built a growing global community of women who embrace the many changes in life. Her documentary Pretty Baby premieres on Hulu and I cannot recommend it enough. To follow Brook.

Talk to you next week.

She Pivots is hosted by me Emily Tish Sussman, produced by Emily eda Veloshik, with sound editing and mixing from Nina Pollock, and research and planning from Christine Dickinson and Hannah Cousins.

I endorse te pivots.

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