Welcome back to. Nevertheless. She persisted a podcast with Sadie Sutton. Today, I'm here. My bad. Hello. See, hi Dad, and we're going to talk about what his experience was as I was going through depression and anxiety and what he has to offer to other parents advice, all that kind of stuff. See ya. This Aaron. Yeah, good time. Is there anything you must start with? I'm just looking forward to the conversation. Okay. All righty, and we're also joined by Posey, the doggy. Okay.
So is there anything you want to share about yourself? Before we start? Well, part of the most important things, your dad, and that obviously it's been a really important to plus years, two and a half years in terms of your growth and our growth as a family. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Cool. so first question is pretty broad, but tell me about your perception of me while I was living at home and what your experience of my mental illness and its progression was like, well, the I'll start where we started to notice that clearly there were changes and this goes back, we meaning your mom and myself ain't so and myself. So this would have been the first probably too late January of your eighth grade year. And so that's where at least I started to notice it.
Mommy. I bet started to notice it earlier because she's more perceptive about these things, but I noticed it when we head out of town guests for dinner, who came over for dinner and they had kids that were very similar to your age and your siblings a Is so what would normally have been a situation where the adult sit down and trade stories and the kids go off and have fun together was not that because you never came out of your room.
And so do you remember this? That was a clue to me that. Wow, this is definitely unusual. And yeah because everybody else had a great time and everybody else was enjoying the company, but you weren't. And I do remember that I had to go up and ask you to come down even for dinner, much less to socialize with our guests. And that was definitely something. I noticed that was just, you know, I didn't understand why it was happening. I just knew that it was something that was very unusual.
And I took, I interpreted as well. This is not being very respectful or welcoming work. Guess I had any understanding or appreciation for the fact that you were suffering and that what was really going on was depression. And so that was my first, That something was up. I have no idea because I wasn't educated in this at all. But that was my first. I'd say perception. That something wasn't quite right in January of your eighth grade year.
Gotcha. So what was as it, I like my depression got worse and I was more depressed and that started to affect a small. What was that? Like It's like Dad knowing that your daughter was going through that. You know, I'd say that in the beginning again. I didn't have the tools myself to really be helpful to really, sort of be the best participant in all this. I unfortunately was, you know, a much more focused on. Let me see if I can solve this for you. Let me see if I can sort of drag
you out of this. And what I mean by that specifically is and you remember this, I'm sure say he were, you would have a tough time getting on. School and rather than taking a deep breath and validating. What it was, you must have been feeling. I Instead try to cajole you out of bed.
I would try and tell you. Hey, it's really important that you get to school because this is an important moment in your life academically and he's all cut all things over well-intentioned but unfortunately of zero help to you. And so so I'd say that, you know what, I should have been doing and I learn this until we got help from people. That really knew what was going on is to validate first and foremost and to be able to say I can just see that you're suffering.
I can I can sense that you're suffering given that you're not. The kind of person that doesn't get out of bed for school in the morning. And so, this is very unusual for you. And first and foremost, you must be suffering. And I want you to know that, I know you're suffering. These are things that I just. It wasn't part of my toolkit is last thing on my My major to write my kind of courses of action, for lack of a better
word. So so anyway, so that sort of began, I think a bit of a period where, you know, your mom and me were ham-fisted in terms of how to handle this wanted to do kind of everything possible to help you. But unfortunately this is new for us and it was new territory and not surprisingly. We acted like rookies through this and probably weren't very helpful to you. And But eventually, you know, we got some some advice and help and, and skills. Thanks.
A lot of good. People be shocked about a lot about like running out of validate understand and Kind of meeting me where I was at a lot that you like learned. Is that the question is, what have you learned in the past year? Would you say that's the main thing? That's the first thing? Yes. Is the, this is the brief answer. I think thing that I learned the
most throughout this. These last two and a half years has been the importance of validation, you know, there's a whole book of other insights and things that we've been very thankful to learn. And I would say that the most important thing that Continue to take away is the importance of validation, and I'd say that that was something. I just didn't, I didn't really kind of even understand or appreciate probably for the first year.
Yeah, but but I do remember in my visits to Boston and sitting in those sessions with blaze and his organization in terms of apparent, Monday, meetings that went on. That's where I learned the importance of validation. Hmm. So I went to Boston and left being home. What was that like to send me away? So it's a parent, it's tough because, you know, you grow up as, you know, I grew up as for the big family and everybody was always at home in terms of the
kids. And then the only time, the kids leave the house is kind of consistent basis is when you go off to college. And so for me, I never Dissipated that idea situation where I would be having an offspring, a kid go off or anything other than college.
So. So just when that topic was raised to us that that people thought that might be the best thing for you and your mental health and being able to develop the skills, to be able to navigate depression and anxiety, you know, it wasn't anything that I expected anticipated or Canon they wanted and but It said after a pretty long period where you were suffering and clearly things were not progressing forward. It was more like one step forward, two steps back. Two steps forward, one step
back. It was treading water is probably the best way to describe it over the course of a year that when it was a very clear recommendation from really skilled service providers and professionals here in our home area said, we really think the right thing for sale. Would be to go to one of these programs where they're really good at this. And, and so, it was one of those things where it wasn't anything that we thought would be in our
future. But eventually when it was actually teed up to us on the heels of a year year and a half of seeing you struggle, that that's when we took a deep breath and said, well, these people really know what they're doing and they're clearly focused on what's best for safety and what's best for our family and we took some time. I'm to think about it eventually. We took their recommendation. I'm really glad you did. But yeah, I'm sure we'll get to. But, but that was scary for us
because that was not something. I think any parent really thinks about never doing when they have an eighth-grader. It's just not something that ever comes up. Yeah, so I had been gone for the past year and a half, two years. Was that like not having me at home? It's incomplete is probably the best way to describe it. It's like missing a key piece of the puzzle, a very big piece of the puzzle. So so it's one of those things where you just always know. There's one in, d.c.
At the dinner table. There's one empty seat in the car. There's your never complete is the short answer and and that's a long time to go about a year and a half without having the family together. And granted were very thankful and that we get opportunities to get together as a few 18-month period but it's hard. And so what you do is you think about the future when the family
is going to be back together. And the second thing you think about is how much better things are for you and your own journey, and that's what I think keeps you going in a good way, which is You just know that this is the right thing for you. And this is right thing for our family. And you've got to work your butt off to make sure that is the case all the way back to work, obviously, but there's no hiding. The fact that it's an incomplete feeling both here. And anytime we're not together.
What was the most difficult part of the past two or three years? Most difficult part, what you highlighted one of them. And so I'll highlight a number of things that were quite difficult. I don't know which one was the most difficult. One was making the decision to get a higher level of care, that would require you to be away from us specifically when you went to Boston. Yeah. I was easily one of the most difficult things that we've done over the last two years.
I said, the second thing is just seeing you suffer as a parent. That's much rather. See yourself suffer. You'd much rather see anyone else in the world suffer other than your child. And so that was, you know, absolutely gut-wrenching is to see your child suffer and to not know what to do about it and then to not know how long that will go on. And so that's a very, very, very Tough thing to go through as a, as a parent.
Those are probably the two hardest things, which to see your child suffer and to, then make a voluntary choice to actually have your child go away. That is, regardless of the fact that we all felt strongly that it was the best thing for you and your health and your recovery. That's incredibly hard to do. It's a lot easier. If somebody else makes that decision, you don't have a choice. Very, very different when it's a voluntary choice. So our life looks a lot different now than it.
Did two years ago. We have like a really strong relationship. Our family unit is a lot more intact. I'm a lot more open with you guys. And obviously, I'm happier and healthy. What do you think it would look like now if you hadn't chosen to send me to Boston?
Well, I don't know for sure, but I can tell you talking to other families that have had similar situations where there Daughter or son suffered from depression and anxiety, is that everyone that we've spoken to says that if they had it to do over again, they would have taken more aggressive action earlier in
your child's life. And so for that, I'm very thankful and I give credit really to your mom for, for moving fast and moving swiftly with regards to getting help for you, and for us. And so, That, that literally, you know, was everything. And I kind of I was very much the follower on that. And normally I'm the leader in a lot of situations that contacts button but not here, really? It was, it was Jamie. It was your mom that took the lead and I'm just so thankful. She did.
And so, I'd say that if we hadn't done those things, I think it would be would be much worse off based on all the things. I've heard from other families in that to see you suffer for Year for a relatively selfish Focus, which would have been us to have you at home for another year. Not to minimize that like that would have sent me away. It was very difficult. A lot of people choose to not do that because it's so difficult.
No, that's not uncommon. No, no, for sure that the common path is not to send your child away to get further help. And so what I'm saying when I say the, you know, kind of easier decision in some ways. Well, I'm easy. Easier if we would have made the decision to keep you here for another year. I think it would have been a relatively selfish decision on the part of your mom and myself, because we just want you home, and that's a very selfish thing.
When I say, I think that context, because that makes us feel good. Now, that said it was incredibly clear that you were suffering in such an intensive way, that it was one of those things where you just have to immediately let go of that that sort of Norman rockwell-like picture where the family must be together or we're going to kind of pretend like everything is perfect. You just set that aside and say this just isn't the time for us to all be together.
Yeah. What is the time for is for Sadie to get the help that she needs? And and that was an incredibly difficult decision to make, but in hindsight, I'm very, very glad that we made it and it came at Great disruption, because you were in the middle of your school year. You know, very, very difficult in terms of this just started High School, just started high school. So you're the middle of your
freshman year in high school. The last thing in the world, you wanted to do was to leave school in the middle of your freshman year and to go to another part of the country to the other side of the country. These things are hard to do. So. Now you wouldn't change. Is there anything you wish you could do differently anything
alter? Sure. I mean, I've lost count of the So much that we could have done differently, you know, it sure feels like before for me at least and I don't know if you agree with this, but for me a real turning point was several weeks into three East in Boston. That was the turning point for me. I think. Agree, awesome.
It sounds like for you as well. I feel like there were countless mistakes made on my behalf on my part in the one year prior to that moment and And a lot of it was because I never experienced something like this before with a child. I didn't know if there were certain things you were doing just to be abstinent versus it coming from another. Yeah, which clearly it was. And and then there's just the helplessness that you feel as a father or a mother in this
situation. And so I've lost count of the things that I wish I had a second chance to do it over again, but they were largely. Have during that time frame, when you first had symptoms of depression and anxiety up until called the three or four week point after you started three East. Yeah, I agree. I know for me. There are so long during that year where I was like, they must see like they must know that I'm
suffering. They must know that I'm unhappy and it's so wasn't obvious because there's so many things that look like just like a typical teenager rebelling. That's right, but kids are like in reality really upset and don't understand. What their identities. So I know one thing I got from. Boston was understanding that people don't know what's going on inside my head, unless I say it thing ever will. So I really wish I could have
done that in a different way. Well, you know, the good news is you already said this earlier is that we now have an open line of communication that we never enjoyed prior to freeze. And I'm so thankful for that because as you said, for the year and a half before, Three East in Boston. There was little communication. And yeah, it would be easier if I were in your shoes to say. Well, geez, Mom and Dad. Absolutely. Must understand what's going on.
Yes, I'm behaving in this way, which is so unusual, but also keep in mind that as a mother and a father, you're pretty much taught. So to speak by society that they just know that when your kids become teenagers, it's going to be ridiculous and you're going to just it's good. Yeah, crazy, and you're not going to understand them anymore. And there's gonna be this. And so you're kind of trained for 12 years.
They're going to test yourself. They're going to not want to be associated with their focus on your friends yet. So you're taught to anticipate this, you're trained to be ready for this. So when it happens, you just kind of assume. Okay. Well, that's Teenage life. Yeah, not fun for anybody. But I guess this is what everybody told us about and so not surprisingly. I'm not forgiving us for this
but it's why your mom. Me basically try to do the best we could but didn't quite understand that this there's a lot more going on. We just had 20 appreciation for. Yeah, so so that chalk that one up to everybody foreshadowing a teenage years. We've every TV show has that message every book, everything in society. I forgive you guys, because one thing that I've learned, especially recently, is that no one can be the perfect parent
for a kid, like, the parent. The perfect parent for me, is different from IV and from Ruby and Atticus. And I'm supposed to be in your oldest child to have no point of reference. Nothing to go off of all trial and errors. There's no way for you to do it perfectly and especially because I expected you to understand without saying anything, I never would expect for you guys, to hold that against yourself. Thank you very much. It's tough because as a father and a mother, you you go back
and relive. Jeez. Why did I do? Why do you not see that coming? Why did I respond differently? And it's tough. I suppose, this is why we're all human. Yeah, it's an example of us being human in that. We don't behave in the perfect way. Every time we don't or not omnipotent understanding what people are going through and this is the this is the struggle that is life. And there's this famous saying that life is struggle and it's true. I think it a lot of life is the struggle of Life.
It wouldn't be life. If it wasn't hard. It wouldn't be like you're not living in down the highs and the lows. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah, I agree. So the name of the podcast nevertheless she persisted. Would you tell the story of how you first found that saying, Okay. So this was this predates, your experience in Montana. So we were given the recommendation by your care providers increased and they thought that rather than going back. Going back into a Traditional School environment.
They strongly recommended that, you go to a therapeutic boarding school before you transition back to a normal school. And so, of course, your mom and I were thrown for a loop or like, oh my gosh, you've gotta figure out if we agree with this recommendation, and then, secondly, we need to find the right therapeutic. Boarding school. Yeah, and so, that was not an easy process.
So your mom and I did a lot of work to try and become Proficient in what therapeutic boarding schools were and where they were located in, which will meet that would be the best match for you. And so, we did a bunch of work and visit a lot of therapy boarding schools. At the end of the day. We found a wonderful one in Montana Whitefish Montana, and there's a little village, they're called White Fish. And there's a little gift shop that sells t-shirts and cards and little Trinkets.
And I remember that we had just come back from visiting the school, and we were staying one night. Right in Whitefish and your mom. And I went walking around before dinner time just to sort of, check out the town and we were in this kind of state of mind that was cautiously optimistic because we had just had a wonderful visit to this therapeutic boarding school also anxious and nervous and know my gosh. I can't believe we're having to
make a decision. It's going to impact our daughter's life for the next year or year and a half of her life. And so there was a lot of weight to the moment. And so we went into this, delightful little guy. Shop. And there was merriweather's giving gifts Montana and it was, you know, a series of sayings that were put on coffee mugs and t-shirts and whatnot. That just couldn't help but make you smile and laugh and whatnot. And I remember I went to back to
the store and I saw this one. I think it was like a pencil case holder or something like that is a little bag and on it. It said, nevertheless, she persisted. Added. And now that would saying was first used in a political context. If you look up online, where a male Senator, I think was was basically saying that this woman, you know, kept talking despite the fact that he asked her to stop talking and he said
that nevertheless she persisted. So so it became sort of used for, you know, kind of female empowerment which I didn't know the full story of it. When I read that phrase and I think it's incredible and inspirational. I hope everybody wears it on. T-shirt, but when I read it, I couldn't help. But think of you and I couldn't
help. But think of all the things that have been thrown at you as a young girl, you know, from the time you were 13 years old, 12 years old and the fact that here you were in Boston persisting in the face of a whole lot of
things that you never asked for. We're never your fault and yet they happen and you had a decision to make which is you could Basically fall over and just sort of you know, kind of not want to get up or you can make the decision to persist and I was always always just amazed flabbergasted inspired by the fact that you have continued to make decisions to persist. And so when I saw that little saying it just you know, it caused me to cry, it caused me to just be so excited for you
that nevertheless, you persist. And so, I sent I think that that you're in an email, if I recall, I might add something like so. Yeah, and it was funny because ever since that moment, when you and I communicate, especially in the Google Docs environment, where this is our primary means of communication outside of our limited phone calls. You, and I, both always end the session with PS. Nevertheless. She persisted and so that's the story.
Yeah, and I felt like that went had a lot of symbolic and emotional meaning but also So, was very Universal to a lot of people have struggled with various things. So if you have me in Congress, maybe it also applies.
But amen. Absolutely, but I think to your point, see, I do think it really is an incredible saying, not just for young girls but for young boys, that may be struggling as well, which is that decision to persist, which is nevertheless, in spite of all these things, the weight of the world and and, and the Tragedy that befalls us, that is incredibly strong young, you know, boys and girls or young women and young men that they make the decision to persist.
It is incredibly inspirational and I'm inspired by you every day. And I'm inspired by your classmates at school and your peers at three. He's and I just, I'm so thankful that you make that decision every day to persist. And I know it's not easy. I should say, I can see that. It's not easy.
I can say that I know because, you know, I haven't gone through what you've gone and what your peers have gone through, but it is just inspiring to watch all of you, get up each day, and make the decision to persist because that they're in is a fulfilled life. And I'm glad we've taken that as our slogan, and it always makes me smile tight that I rephrase. And it always makes me smile to read that phrase to. Yeah, with that we want to end. I've been attending the episodes
with how we end our It's well. So ready. Beside getting P best. Nevertheless. She persisted.