Welcome to she persisted I'm your host Sadie Saxton a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. She persisted is the Teen Mental Health podcast made for teenagers by a team in each episode. I'll bring you authentic accessible and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental Wellness. You can expect evidence-based, Tina, proof resources, coping skills, including lots of DBT,
insights and education. In each piece of content, you consume, she persisted It offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle. While encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living. So, let's dive in this week on. She persisted for having young women, young men children, because we are seeing programs that take children that are younger than the teenage level that are forcibly removed from
their home. They don't know where they're going, they don't know what playing they're getting on. There is no information generally, they're going to be handcuffed hours that time. Died. And these programs promote will transport them. If they resist us and we know there's an issue at the airport will transport them until they give in and then we'll jump on an airplane. Quick disclaimer all statements
in this episode. Our opinions, the purpose of this episode is not to Target our attack, certain organizations and individuals. But rather ask the question. How can we ensure ethical evidence-based? Compassionate mental health treatment for all teenagers with that? Let's dive in. Hello, hello, and welcome back to she persisted. I'm so excited. You're here. Today we are talking about something.
That is very important, very near and dear to my heart which is breaking code silence and the work, they are doing to increase regulation and the troubled teen industry. I've done a handful of episodes on this in the past and I'll make sure to link them in the show notes that if this Sparks your interest, you can kind of do a deep dive into these different episodes here, different people's stories, you're my experience, Etc. And if you're also like, what is
the troubled teen industry? I will also explain that in this introduction, so don't worry. But today's guest is Bobby cook. He is On the breaking code silence team. He gives a great explanation of what he does. What breaking code silence? Does their mission and also his background and the troubled teen industry, which was really just amazing to hear. And to have him share his story
and why? He's so passionate about this as conversation is so educational and enlightening, since my experience at a therapeutic boarding school and kind of being somewhat involved in this world and being aware of what bringing cosines is doing. And all of the work that still needs to be done to increased regulation of these programs. I've wanted to have someone from breaking code silence on, she persisted because they are at the Forefront of this work.
They are so educated and insightful. So I emailed they said yes I am so excited that we got to do this interview and have this conversation. As we talk about the history of the troubled teen industry, we talked about not sap. We talked about breaking code silence next steps, anything and everything relating to that.
But I also wanted to add here that a great place to start with kind of learning about this is the Paris Hilton documentary, it's called This is Paris. And in He documentary, she talks a lot about her personal experiences in the troubled teen industry. She talks about some programs that she went to and you see her journey to work with survivors to get her program. Shut down, unfortunately still open but steps are being made and they just did an amazing job
illustrating. What these programs are like how they can impact and affect so many teens. And I think that's just a great place to start if you are going into this blind. So, I'll link that in the show notes, but to give you some stats and information about the troubled teen industry and breaking code silence before we start. So the troubled teen industry specifically in the u.s. is a network of privately owned
programs. They're often Wilderness based Residential Treatment Centers, therapeutic boarding, schools, group, homes boot camps and faith-based Academy. It's that our marketing behavioral change and mental health treatments to parents. And the difference between these programs in the troubled, Industry and programs like three East McLean Hospital, which is where I went to residential, and I speak. So, highly of is the lack of Regulation and the lack of evidence based treatment and the
lack of communication. And also the very much so illegal and unethical things that happen here at these programs, which we will dive into in this conversation, do you want to add at the beginning of this episode that mental health treatment and Mental Health Care works? It changed my life. It saved my life. I am so turned. Really grateful to three East and McLean Hospital, and the wonderful collection of doctors and therapists and team members there for using evidence-based.
Dialectical behavioral treatment for working collaboratively for involving my family, and forgetting me, the help and support that, I needed when I was truly at my lowest point therapy works mental health treatment works, it's an amazing resource and that's why it's so important to regulate these
programs. Because the last thing you want is, when you finally get the strength and the Courage to ask for help and then you start to pursue that help when you are met with unethical ineffective and sometimes more traumatizing treatment, you just go in the opposite direction. And so heartbreaking to know that people are at their lowest point. They're just looking for support and help and they're met with the opposite. And another caveat that I want to add here.
Is that. What's so, again, heartbreaking about this is a lot of the times parents don't realize until after the fact, these programs Our expert marketers, they're saying exactly what parents want to hear, which is that we can help your child. We can fix your child, they will stop suffering, they will stop being in pain and that's all a parent wants to hear because it's their worst nightmare to see their child struggling in such a big way. And so after they're like, yes, please help me.
This is amazing. Your child is then put into these troubled teen programs. And one of the signs of these is a huge lack of communication between the parents and the child. So, that line of communication is Pop out and then it becomes very difficult for the teen to be able to say something isn't, right? So those caveats which is one that mental health treatment is so important and effective and amazing which is why there should be a high standard of care for all of these programs.
So that when you pursue mental health care and pursue support, you get support and you get evidence based care, which is what you should be getting in the first place. And second, this conversation is not directed at parents who are just doing their best and trying to get their child support again. This is about increasing regulation, education around troubled teen industry programs.
So numbers on the troubled teen industry, which again we talked about is therapeutic boarding schools, Wilderness programs, faith-based Academy's, behavioral change programs Etc. There are over 6,000 under regulated congregate care facilities, just in the United States. There's over twenty three billion dollars of Public Funding. Spent on troubled families. There's over 200,000 children and teens placed in congregate care and Lee, not all time annually and there's zero
Federal legislation, overseeing. These troubled teen industry programs. Those are some really shocking statistics to hear because it doesn't seem right. That 200,000 youth are put into 6,000 programs that are funded with 24 billion dollars and there's your federal legislation, but that is the facts. That is the statistics here. So to kind of clarify, what makes a troubled, teen Industry Program.
Harmful, there's a very extensive list on the breaking code silence website, which I'll link in the show notes, but to give you a couple of ideas and red flags to be aware of, and if you yourself have been in treatment in your like, oh my gosh. All of those were at my program, kind of recognizing. And if maybe your parent looking at programs, just things to be aware of. So, the program recommends involuntary admittance, which means that the teen is put into this program without consent
without permission. They are signed up without any autonomy in the process. And as I've shared many times, a huge part of my journey was when I got to Three East at McLean. Hospital in the asked me, do you want to be here? They made it very clear. That three.
He's was a voluntary program and that it only works, if you are an active participant and you want to be there and you're motivated to get better and improve and you trust your care providers, you want to be involved in the process and pinpoint that as the moment that everything shifted for me because I went from going through the motions of being in therapy and outpatient programs but not believing, that change was truly possible, and not trusting people to help me.
To deciding that I wanted to get better, trusting others, and then allowing the process to happen, and that was a lot of difficult. Tough work that went in there. So, that's kind of the difference between an involuntary admit it where your parents sign somewhere on a dotted line. And you don't have any role in the process. Verse says being very involved and having your autonomy over yourself and your health care.
The second one to mention is that the program recommends forceful Transportation or escort services, This was referred to during my time in the troubled teen industry as gooning and I've never been goon to thank goodness.
I can't even imagine how traumatizing of an experience this is but basically your parents are your Guardians higher Transport service and you're woken up in the middle of the night to kind of catch you off guard and you're physically transported from your home to the program.
And if anyone's woken up in the middle of the night by strangers in your room, many of these teens are like I'm being kidnapped and being Taken and you're screaming and crying for help, and most of these transport programs legally, require a parent to watch. So, you're watching your parents. Watch you get kidnapped and being taken across the country, or to a different state without knowing where you're going. And again, having no autonomy or
control over this process. A third thing is that the program is not state-licensed accredited for at least three components, which is educational mental, and Behavioral Health and residential really great example of this. And at the end of the central, kind of give a really brief overview of my Through the trouble. And teen industry is basic educational things at the therapeutic boarding school, I went to one of the reasons why it was so attractive to my parents and me as well, is that
I could continue. My education pursuing mental health, treatment comes at a huge cost especially if you are a teen and you're supposed to be in high school or college and so to be able to go to school will also getting Mental Health Care was a great idea but because the school really wasn't adequately accredited, my science teacher since my sophomore year of high school didn't have a teaching license.
His only experience was, he was a pre-med student in college before he dropped out and joined the forestry service. And so if there's a red flag there and the educational sector, it's only an indicator of how on a crowded Ed and unlicensed other areas within the program can be the fourth one, is that the program uses a contract with terms that ask the parent to sign over their custodial rights or agree to not
report child abuse. So what that means is that when you enter these programs, your parents give up their custody of you. And this was something that Went to me, when I went to the therapeutic boarding school in Montana. When I started my 14 months, they're my parents had to sign a document. You could it enter the program without doing this, where they
signed over 51% of my custody. So my parents weren't responsible for me. This corporate organization was actually, I think the person that legally had responsibility for me, was The Tech Guy on campus and so like I just shared my experience at McLean, Hospital was amazing and they never wired my parents to sign over 51% of custody. I had much more intensive and extensive Mental Health Care MacLean and that was never something that was required.
That is not a standard of care for medical care for mental health. Care to give up custody and give it to a program. The reason that we do this is that they can make all decisions on your behalf. You don't have to give consent for things they can give consent and so that is a huge red flag. No program should be requiring that because it's not a standard of care and it's not necessary.
Next one is that the program employs mostly uneducated or under trained staff to handle the majority of the day-to-day care of the children? While there might be one or two therapists on staff your child or you or probably only seeing that therapist, what a couple hours a week. My experience was that 10 12 hours a day, the entire weekend.
Over night. I was with high school educated staff members with no experience in the mental health field and so when we weren't in a crisis, when we were really struggling when there were really real Behavior, Ural challenges occurring in these teens the people that were handling, it were under educated and under trained staff members.
And that again is a huge difference at McClain people that are teaching skills and that our day-to-day people that you are interacting with most of these adults were pursuing a degree in Psychology potentially, they had other experience in the mental health industry. They were extensively trained, they knew DBT like the back of their hands so that they were Trained and equipped to handle a
crisis mode. There was always therapist on staff therapist where they're 10 to 12 hours a day meeting with other patients. Doing other things. Really a huge 180 from the therapeutic boarding school. The second to last thing that I'll mention it again. There's like 15 20, maybe even 30 of these, that you can look in depth on the breaking code silence website, but the second to last one is that the program only allows monitored or limited telephone communication with parents.
When I was at this therapeutic boarding school, you were not able to have phone calls. With your parents until you reach the third level. And for most people that was like three to six months of being at this program. And when you did earn that privilege the privilege that you are earning was a five-minute supervised call. Once a week, this is hugely abnormal for mental health care. Whenever I was in a psychiatric ward. Whenever I was at McClain there is open access to phones.
Of course there are certain limitations sometimes like when I was at MacLean we created an approved list and I was involved in that process it was like these Friends that are really healthy and supportive and that I will call that. I know will be effective in my treatment journey and these are family members and this is my parents number and I could call them as many times a day as I wanted.
And of course, they're like, Sadie were not going to answer if you call is 12 times a day, normal parents, I don't blame you but that was an option. I was allowed to call them in the Adolescent. Psych units in California at least when I went to there was open. Phone access anytime you wanted to call. Someone use went to the phone. You dialed the number having extremely limited. We're talking five minutes a
week. One. It's a week supervised or maybe an hour once a week with a therapist present doing family therapy, that is not normal. And that is not a standard of care, especially for teens, when family Dynamics and family relationships are of the utmost importance. The last one that I'll mention is that the duration of the internment at the program, is really ambiguous. There's an indefinite detainment. I remember at three, he's the
guidelines were very set forth. There was a minimum stay, which I think was 28 days. There was a standard length of Day, which is four to six weeks. And I remember, even when I was there, I think they adjusted it because they were like, you know what, we're finding that patients are having more effective outcomes from saying six to eight weeks rather than four to six. And if they adjusted that based on what they were seeing in Montana, this length of stay was
literally all over the place. I remember there were girls that were there for 11 months. There were girls that were there for three years. There were girls that were getting pulled left and right. And we're there for only a couple weeks or a couple of months. There really was not a nerd of care. And I remember that when I went into the Montana program, we were like, maybe best case scenario. It would be possible for me to go home and do my spring of
sophomore year at home. And then it was like, okay, we knew that was getting our hopes up. So end of sophomore year, 100%, I'll be at home, and then it ended up being like, I barely got home for junior year. They didn't want me to leave my parents. Like, we're done. We're leaving. This is the end of this experience. She is good. She is fine. She's coming home. So that extreme flexibility.
Of people's length of stay being like, six months, eight months to three years is not a standard of care. And you guys have heard me say this before, but whatever I'm like, is mental health stigma coming into play here. I always check these things again, standards of care for physical health, where I check, how I would think about a physical health problem versus a mental health problem.
If you were going to do physical therapy for a broken leg, they would give you an estimate of time that you would be doing the physical therapy program for. Yes, maybe it would adjust based on how you were performing, or How you were healing, but there would be an estimated length of stay, not, maybe eight months, maybe three years, right? And there are certain markers, your meeting. You know what, you have to do to
leave. That was not the case at the therapeutic boarding school at I was at. So again, so many red flags and these programs and you can look at the full list but just some basic ones to be aware of and to kind of again clarify, what these programs are like. So the last thing that I want to mention here now that we kind of have an understanding of what exactly that Lay the troubled teen industry as some stats. What to look for. What makes these programs part of the troubled teen industry.
We've emphasized that this is not a reflection of parents is a reflection of the industry. We've emphasized that Mental Health Care works. It's so important. And that's why getting these programs accredited and overseeing is so crucial. I'm going to talk very vaguely about my experience to give a little bit of a foundation and also explain why I'm so passionate about this. So I went to a therapeutic boarding school after my 14 weeks at McClain, I was there for 14 months.
And like I mentioned there was a many things that were not up to standard of what things should be. Like at a mental health facility, the vast majority of Staff members that we were interacting with only required a high school education and no, mental, health experienced staff were all trained on site which doesn't necessarily have to be a
bad thing. I believe, McClane also trained their team members on site, but there's a difference between training on-site at the number one, mental hospital in the world. That's a Harvard accredited. Med school and has like 100 years of experience and evidence-based. Practices that you're using and training on site with people whose only experiences at that
program. Have no further education and again, no other experience within the mental health field, so you can kind of see the difference between training on-site there. But the vast majority of people, we were interacting with were under educated and undertrained. During my time there, there was no psychologist on staff. There is a psychiatrist who would come every month, maybe every three months to check in with patients, but there wasn't
a psychiatrist on staff. It was more like he came and visited patients again, very different from McClain where I think there was like three or four psychiatrists on staff that you were meeting with on almost a weekly basis to my knowledge. Now there are no psychologist on staff. They have people that are doing therapy with a masters of education and no degree in Psychology. They were not sticking to an evidence-based therapy modality.
Again, I'm claiming use dialectical behavioral therapy which has dozens of studies supporting that there was no therapeutic modality being used. You kind of Shut up for a session, you talked about things, and hopefully, things shifted the contact with parents and teens with another huge red flag at the therapeutic boarding school. I went to again at the beginning. There was no contact you, then could fax letters twice a week
to your parents. You had supervised family therapy calls with a therapist once a week since not all teens there had that. But most of them did. And then once you were there for about three to six months, you earn the privilege of a supervised phone call once a week, it wasn't until you were probably We in your last month of the program that you earn the privilege of having your own phone. Again, the academics were really
under regulated. I remember part of the credits that I received in high school, were me, literally teaching myself on a computer, Spanish, and history, and all of these things. And so, if that's what the academic standards are, and this is a therapeutic boarding school, imagine what the stands were for therapy and Mental Health Care. Needless to say, that experience was not the greatest for me and I want to emphasize that it was one of the better programs in Industry.
My parents worked so many therapeutic boarding schools to try and figure out what my next step would be from McClain. And that was the best one that they found. And to know that the best one that was out there with still not held to the standard of care that all programs should be. Just breaks my heart to think about what other teams are going through. What I know they were going through because it's so many teens at this.
Therapeutic boarding school came straight from Wilderness therapy and we've done opposites on that in the past, which I'll link in the show notes, but I really want to emphasize there. That this is one of the good programs, so that speaks volumes to what these other programs have occurring and Bobby talks about this, a lot in this episode's there. Many children. Many teens have died in these programs. There are many, many long-term health issues. There are people that are being
physically restrained. Put an isolation starved. These programs are really really terrible. And so across the board, we need better regulation and I'm grateful that my experience was one that was emotionally a little bit difficult to navigate. But my physical health was okay, and I made it to the other side. And so with that kind of foundation established, I hope you guys learn a lot from this episode.
I hope you find it valuable and informative and educational and it's something that I really proud of. And it's a cause that I am very passionate about. So with that, let's hear from Bobby about all things. Troubled, teen industry and breaking code silence. Thank you so much for joining me today. Bobby, I'm so excited to have you on the show.
Oh, and just to be able to pick your brain about this, super important topic and provide a lot of answers for listeners that I can only give so much advice on. Thank you for having me. I, it's an honor to be able to speak out about something like this. Yeah. So to start, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how you started working with
breaking code silence? Yeah. So in 2002, I was sent to a facility in Dahlonega, Georgia called Hidden Lake Academy. I was standard teenager who had some Family issues and I had skipped a couple classes and the school that I was attending at the time had recommended that I get psychological evaluation and that turned into recommending an educational consultant which then turned into me being recommended to a program and I was actually I ended up at the program for twenty nine months. Wow.
And so after I left that program I spent a lot of years with people. Not believing me about my story and about the things that happened. And within those facilities, the traumas that we experienced the abuse that we saw and experienced ourselves. And about two years ago, a close personal friend of mine who I was at the program was introduced me to a group called
breaking code silence. And I join that organization with the mission to protect children from ever having to experience anything that I experienced as a survivor of a program. And to really make sure that there was legislation and laws passed, that really promoted youth Bill of Rights and protecting children from These atrocities. And so that my role just grew
the organization. And I'm now currently the CEO and executive director with breaking code silence and trying to promote that mission and really protect those children. You guys are doing such important work, and whatever.
I get questions about this, my first direction is go to the website, look at what you guys are doing because it's again, such important work and so few people know about it which is crazy and we'll kind of touch on the numbers there but so many teens have been affected by these programs. So many teens have gone through Ooh, them or have had a friend
experience them. So it's a very widespread issue and yet we're not having this conversation as much as we should be. I completely agree with you. Yeah, so you mentioned a couple of terms that I want to clarify for listeners. The first one very basically is the troubled teen industry for listeners that aren't familiar with that. And they know that Mental Health Care programs are out there. What exactly is the troubled teen industry? How did it start?
And how do you kind of distinguish a troubled teen program from other? Blessed, mental health care. So the troubled teen industry is a collective of schools and programs across the country, across the world nowadays. Yeah, that promote mental health, treatment for children and teens. They also promote behavior modification therapies that are supposed to help a family with a team that is struggling different Realms. It could be something such as mental health.
It could be something in the realm of Behavioral issues such as sexual, proclivities smoking weed. Different Realms, where parents don't understand how to help their children. Correct. Those actions or get their children to help that they're looking for. And really, this has been around a lot longer than people realize it has been. We're finding research that shows that there's been facilities like this since the 1800s.
Wow. But what we're really discovering was there was a group that came out of California in the 1960s and 70s called synanon and it was supposed to be a take on a a, and a all those different drug rehabilitation. Offerings that were out there and what they did was they created new kinds of therapy and that group really kind of exploded into what is now being called one of the most dangerous cult.
So there's ever walked the face of the North America and a lot of the people took those ideals and they decided that, hey, these modules really could benefit children and we saw programs, like straight Incorporated come out. And these were really facilities were children were placed in them with no realm of contact to the outside and we're heavily We monitored and started to become abusive.
We were, we're seeing isolation and restraint through the history of these programs, the were seeing and neglect of medical care and basic necessities. We're seeing families torn apart. We're seeing children verbally and physically attacking each
other. In therapy sessions to break each other down, to remold them into a certain fashion and this industry really took off with those bass ideals of what sinan on had and there was a group called si do SI D'you that spun off of that, they started opening up high schools and then a group came along called wasp, the worldwide Association specialty programs, and they started taking those ideals and reforming them in the ways they sell appropriate.
And this just kind of massively spread across the world. I mean, we're seeing facilities in Europe and Jamaica and Mexico at a friend in Brazil like South America. Yeah. Yeah. It just, it really took off. Off with these weird. Ideations that these groups had about how you could change a child's behavior and it really LED down to that.
As I said that ideal of breaking someone down to a point that you could rebuild them in a fashion that you felt appropriate, parents are excluded from those conversations. Love the time parents understand the therapies that are used those tactics as I said, such as isolation and restraints and really this industry started profiting off of parents who
were unaware. Yeah and parents who were so desperate to find help for their children, that they would do anything at any cost and it just continued to grow and grow. And I mean, we're seeing you, but the history of this we're seeing programs opening monthly still across the country and they have a history of a program will shut down but then it will reopen under a different name. Yeah.
And a lot of people open another program or the directors will move around to all these different locations we're even seeing Certain groups that had multiple facilities shut down all of a sudden, they're open under a different name and it's the same people who own them, they just found it a new Healthcare Company. Yeah, to go that route or they bring in a different investors so they could put their names on
something. And then with the history of the TTI, what we're seeing is really there are other groups behind the scenes that really promote and focus on these programs. The founder of my program actually, founded one. That is out there that certifies and it.
I didn't see these programs and their approval seal goes on every single website for every one of these programs and you're seeing thousands of facilities with this one stamp of approval and it just grows and grows and they have a whole industry of what we call Educational Consultants which are people who are paid to recommend schools like that's what I want. My next question, Educational Consultants.
If you were going through this as a parent, would you get an educational consultant to find you a program? No, I would not and this doesn't Just my because of my history. Yeah, in general. I would not because a lot of the times what we're seeing statistically is that
Educational? Consultants are told about these programs but they're not doing the research that's involved, they're not going back and looking at the history of a program and seeing if there were lawsuits, if there were abuse cases that were going on, we're seeing Educational Consultants promote programs these days in which children are dying. Yeah, and when they did visit, they visited our program on.
Both occasions. We would be show ponies that would pick three or four girls that had Advanced very far through the program. Had been there for months. We would eat in a separate dining hall, eat a separate meal cooked by a different Chef. We would talk to them about different things that we're going on and they weren't asking the questions about what the actual process was. And I mean, you can find great programs without an educational
consultant. I went to a residential program at McLean Hospital before my time in the troubled teen industry saved my life. I've changed my life evidence-based, highly effective, my parents were very involved. Can't speak highly of it enough. No, educational consultant. Help them find that program. They did that research themselves. No. And you know, to touch base on what you were saying about how they kind of show Pony children. That's what these programs do with parents as well.
That our perspective for these programs. Yeah. You see these beautiful flyers and brochures. You see all these images online of children's smiling. Riding horses from A pool playing at a lake and the reality of the program is not what you're seeing in those photos because they do exactly what you just described. They know that they're going to have say five perspective, parents on campus, they will select those few children or in the case of my program.
They did what they called field days. All of a sudden there were Inflatables there was cotton candy machines and the parents weren't taken down to that area, but all they could see from a distance was all these children running around a lake side or a sock. Soccer field, having fun. And then there will be three or four specific children who were chosen to guide them around that had a script almost that they were to follow and certain questions we were told to direct them to other people.
We were not allowed to answer specifics on what our therapy was like we could only answer specifics on what your daily schedule. I wake up at 6 a.m. we cleaned our dorm rooms, we have breakfast, we go to school. After school there's activities. We have dinner, we have study hall. We go to bed on the weekends. Sometimes we watch a movie. We go down in the student center and that was our script and they do that with the Educational Consultants, as well as the parents.
Just so there is no liability from them coming from a future, prospective parent or educational consultant says. Hey, maybe something's wrong here. Yeah, you guys know I'm a sophomore at the University of Pennsylvania, which is that I am constantly studying, and preparing for tests and doing readings and all of the things and it takes a lot of focus and requires me to be as effective and productive as possible. So I can also do the things I
love. Like the Podcast and work and all these other things that also take attention and I feel like I have added the perfect hack to my morning routine and that is Magic mind. You might have heard me talk about them before I love it, especially for days when I have a lot of classes or even exam coming up or its midterm season. Because rather than drinking multiple cups of coffee and feeling all anxious. And shaky from the caffeine, I can add a shot of magic mind with my coffee.
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subscription 40%. That's insane. So use code she persisted for 40% off for the next 10 days. So, to put some numbers to this, how many teens are within this industry and it's very profitable, which I think a lot of people don't realize. So if you could kind of give some numbers to listeners about a, how many humans either currently there or have gone through these programs and then how much these programs are making as a whole from profiting off this very vulnerable population.
So what we're seeing statistically as right now, there's upwards of probably 2,000 programs that are up and running right now. Student wise children within the programs, we're seeing anywhere from 150 to 200,000, children, being affected at these moments. We cannot even begin to put a number on the amount of children that have been through something
like this. Yeah. After 20 years of being outside of a program and being part of different Survivor communities, some of these communities that are on social media, have 7,000 members, some of them have 30,000 members, the history of these programs, how long they've been running, we really can't put a number two. How many have been through. A situation like this. But when you talk about the profiting that these programs are making, it depends on what realm you're talking about.
The prophet coming from, there's multiple avenues that these programs make money, they make them off of parents who have the money to pay cash. That is one way that they Market this, they use healthcare insurance and they have gone. Now, as far as to using Tricare and military veterans, health, insurance to help pay for these programs, the federal government and the juvenile court. Systems have paid into these
kind of systems. Because when you have a child in foster care, that's struggling that sent to one of these programs or a child is court-ordered. The government or the state ends up paying, and right now to Wishin it drastically ranges. But I mean, we're looking, if you're talking about a residential treatment center, it could be upwards of 12,000 dollars a month. It could be something. Some programs charge, something like forty thousand dollars a month.
If you're looking at a Wilderness Program, which is a whole different realm of this in, Mystery of wilderness. Therapeutic treatment where children were gone for 70 or 80 Days hiking out in the woods that could cost apparent upwards
of a thousand dollars a day. So talk to me about Wilderness programs because I feel like that is one of the most common first points of entry into this industry, what exactly is a Wilderness Program and to your knowledge, is there any research supporting Wilderness programs and positive outcomes for these diagnoses? That's a great question. So when looking at Wilderness programs about the ideal is the model were finding really started in about the 1940s in Texas. Hmm.
There were other models that really try to prove how effective this was that came out of places like BYU in the 60s. Yeah, of course, I'm BYU, it's always BYU. My school is run by more minutes, the religious tie and especially the Roma Utah, its massive. Yeah, the model is supposed to, be you strip, a child of all conveniences. They don't have access to email or Asian or cell phones. Social media worse showers is a big one Foods. A massive one. Medical Care is the other big one.
But what they do is they really promote this idea that we're going to take your child out, where to strip them of those conveniences. We're going to teach them how to take appreciation for those things that they no longer have, and we're going to do therapy with them on a daily basis. Well, that therapy's consisting of hiking all day long. I mean, you know, we're not, we're not just talking like a
mile or two we're talking. 13 14 miles were talking that they're carrying backpacks, that have 70 or 80 pounds. And so, then everyone to build their own backpacks with tarps and sticks. Yes, there was one associated with my program that also shut down, where they actually Force the children. How to learn how to make a raft out of their backpack so that they could safely cross a river. Okay? But what we're seeing is that, when they're doing all those hiking, the children are
malnourished. They're not getting the appropriate amount of water. The food is very Very basic. It could be something as simple as just a bowl of rice. It could be something towards the effect of already feel it, all depends, but we're seeing evidence. Now are programs where the children don't even have correct
hiking boots. They're wandering around and rubber flip-flops and the desert in the middle of the winter because their feet need to breathe after they have boots on and they're being told that if they want to eat and they want to have a hot meal, figure out how to start a fire with sticks. They've taken this back to a very primitive level. But then in return, they are padlocking these children's tents at night and putting motion alarms on them.
So these children aren't allowed to get up to go out to the bathroom in the middle of the Wilderness. They're basically handed a jug and said, you know, here's your bathroom. I know that you're upset with someone else, privacy doesn't matter. They strip you of all basic rights as a human but also has a child and they really, really pushing this. And as I said, these programs are costing to parents upwards of a thousand dollars a day and they're promoting things
nowadays. Such as technology addiction, we've found a program that is taking children as young as eight for sexual addiction, Wow. And then they promote and this this goes hand-in-hand with not only the residential treatment facility is but also the Wilderness facilities that were saying they'll tell a parent, your child 90 days, we'll have them fixed at the end of 90 days, they're coming back and saying, you know what, there's still some issues. We need to keep them another 90 days.
We'll all of a sudden your child's there, seven months instead of a month and a half when it comes to residential treatment facilities were seeing the same, the same conversation. Your child hasn't done the therapy, like they're supposed to, they haven't moved up the levels. They need to. So they need to stay here longer and they will continue to keep a child as long as insurance is paying or the parents are going to pay the cash.
Yeah. But on the flip side of it, the parents don't realize the expenses are not only what they're paying for tuition programs. Are now coming in saying, hey, there's this therapy. It wasn't included in tuition, we need you to pay for this. Oh hey, by the way, a bottle of body wash that you know, was a Suave brand is going to be $40 to you instead of a dollar 85 that it costs at Walmart. Yeah. And parents aren't seeing those costs associated until well.
After the fact, what about children that are referred from Wilderness programs to therapeutic boarding schools owned by the same company. You get hooked for four weeks, you're like, 90 days in the woods but then they're, like, no 12 months at the school. I mean, that's one of the, that's one of the most common practices that is out there.
In this industry is every one of these schools has an association with Some sort of psychologists some sort of consultants, and then they're tied somehow to one of these Wilderness programs. So that if the child is being too extreme within the Residential Treatment Center, there's a Wilderness Program that they can go to, and then they could come times at my
school, it's a real thing. Yeah, I mean, well, at my program at him like Academy, that the Wilderness Program was less than half a mile on the same property owner. So, if you were acting out too much, you were just sent down the road across. Bridge into the woods to a program owned by the same school. Wow. And that's just such a common practice that we're seeing is this back and forth.
Because all it does is it keeps money flowing back and forth into this system, and we're talking that this is an over a billion dollar industry. Yeah, they're really finding any aspect they can to make that money. So if they partner with a Wilderness Program, it's well, if we refer them, is there a cut that they're receiving? We don't know. We're not seeing those statistics because they're hiding those things. From us. Yeah, we have our suspicions.
You also don't see this, an adult Mental Health Care. Never wouldn't adult be put in the woods without their consent because that that like agreeing to participate is so crucial in adult mental health care. That's not there in teens you don't have to consent and also like you mentioned they're telling these very vulnerable parents, exactly what they want to hear which is Help you. We have the solution.
We know your child is in pain and we can solve this problem for you which is what makes this so saddening. So many parents don't realize what's going on at these programs. Well, no, when I mean, you know, the other realm That You Don't See in adults or with adults, necessarily is something else, it's not as talked about within this industry, you don't see. Two gentlemen, showing up at
2:00 in the morning. Dressed in all black, kicking your door open and saying you're going somewhere against her will and then escorting. You on a bus or Or a plane or in a car or on a train, however, to get somewhere that you go against your will across state lines. But with children parents will hire these people because that's what the programs are. Recommending a kidnapping. Yeah, it really is. I mean and it's happening across state lines. It's almost it's on the same
level as human trafficking. Yeah. And it's so traumatic. Almost all of the girls that were at my boarding school. They called it gooning and they remembered vividly at three am. These people showing Up in their home and the parents legally have to watch.
So that the kids know, that are quote, unquote know that they're not actually being kidnapped by a stranger, but then you're taken by these people physically forcefully to this program, without your consent, without any knowledge beforehand, and it's extremely traumatic well, and then you're witnessing nowadays. They have regulations that state. If there are other children in the house, make sure that they're not around to witness this. Yeah, you know, 20 years ago.
That wasn't the case anyone that was in. The household and now they're actually telling parents let us into the house while you will stand outside the house. And you're having young women young men children because we are seeing programs that take children that are younger than the teenage level that are forcibly removed from their home. They don't know where they're going, they don't know what play in there. Getting on, there is no information generally.
They're going to be handcuffed her zip-tied and these programs promote will transport them if they resist us and we know there's would be an issue at the airport will transport them until they give in and then we'll jump on an airplane. Yeah, were so intimidating that a child will given soon believe me with the size that we are. This child will give in very shortly. We're seeing that constantly as a promotion for these programs. And these programs utilize.
I don't know. There's probably 30 of these transport companies out there that there are all well known to the industry. Yeah, and you just go on the website you like book your fifteen hundred dollar child transport. Come tomorrow. It's the craziest thing. Yes. So for Parents that are listening to this episode in our like, my child needs help. We've tried everything. What should you look for? What are these red flags in programs on websites? Talking to people to be aware of
where you're like? Something might not be right? I don't know if I should send my kid here. So, there's numerous ones that we look for when we see red flags, first and foremost, if you talk to a school and they tell you that there's going to be limited communication with your child, at the beginning of their program, that is one of the most major. Red flags communication is one of the highest levels of control that they have because they will
monitor every word. A child says to make sure that the child isn't quote-unquote, not manipulating the parents into getting out of the program. Also if something Extreme has happened like a child goes, the hospital. Child has died. They don't want that information. Getting back to the parents so they will control. What has said they will cut off communication or they will say, you can't call your child. You can only send them a letter and they read these letters back
and forth. I Remember, so what I was in a mental hospital or when I was at MacLean, I called my parents like three times a day. We would check in with a chat, we have therapy. I just wanted to say hi, I could call them. I could call friends. If they were approved and healthy continents, we'd open access to a phone when I went to the school Montana, not only were you not allowed to call a parent until you were on the third level, which sometimes took kids six months to get to
right? Were granted a social call. If say, for a birthday it was supervised. I remember just getting These phone calls and sobbing and refusing to asked to leave because I was told, if you asked to leave, you haven't accepted the program, that's a red flag, you'll get put back on an earlier level. But then, once you did get on the third level, you got that social call, it was five minutes. Monitored once a week, and that was all within my program.
I think I was three minutes of a phone call a week. It's crazy. Monitored, I was allowed to talk to at the beginning. I was only allowed to communicate with my aunt and uncle who are my Guardians who had sent me to the Graham. Yeah, about four months and I was allowed to email on monitor Communications to my mother and my grandparents and then it was like 16 months and I could have to approve friends that I could talk to 20 months in.
I was allowed to see those friends when I went home for a visit, which are, you know, those are the other red flags. You look for when they tell you that you're not allowed to see your child for months, upon months upon months, red flag, child played my parents flew out every weekend, we spent the night together. We'd go and practice.
Building. Our relationship that was essential in moving forward in this program because that family relationship was so crucial and pivotal in recovery herb. I think I was a year in the program before I was allowed to go outside of the city limits of where my program was with my parents. And my parents only lived, 45 minutes to an hour down the road. Yeah. And they still had no access because Leaving inside one of the other big red flags.
If a program asks you to sign over 51% of custody or give power of attorney. Over the child, massive red flag. That's like if you went to get your appendix out in the hospital said I'm sorry actually this random person and accounting is going to need to own you for the next 48 hours while we do this procedure, that would not happen and yet this corporation owns me for 14 months. Exactly. We and, and what they do is, they'll tell the parent. Do you have the right to remove your child?
But if you do well, like all the tuition you paid and all these things that you paid, we can't refund anything. There are certain steps that we now have to go through because they really do request. Guardianship other red flags are if they actually promote any sort of isolation or restraint. Yeah, massive red flag. Another big one that we look into is look up, the quality of the staff we tell every parent. Well, we do not recommend placement in any program with
our organization. If parents are hesitant, and they still want more information. Look up the qualifications of the staff that are at the school. I think we saw a medical director at a program. What a degree in Zoology? No, that's insane. No one point. There was someone with a masters of education fully doing therapy with girls. At this school there is no psychologists on staff. Our day-to-day staff that we
spend the majority of our time. Time with had a high school diploma with no history of mental health experience and they were trained on site with whatever the other staff members told them. There was, we had staff turnover, we found a program where the highest level of Education, someone who had was a interior design degree and they were actually the director of the entire program.
Oh my god, when you look at these programs you're seeing that generally the highest level that you're going to see a Is dealing with the child, the highest level of degree, they have is going to be like a licensed social worker. Yeah. That doesn't mean that they're qualified and trained. Understand the therapeutic techniques that are valuable a lot of these people don't understand what trauma based evidence is and how that affects
therapies or models. A lot of them don't have an understanding of neuro Divergence e and what different therapies, can help someone that is labeled ADHD or autistic. If you want to look at what are the qualifications, are the school's religious-based. Because if they are religious-based, generally what we're saying is not every program. But generally what we're seeing is, if your child goes for religious based program and they have any conflicts with their sexual identity conversion
therapy will be used. Yeah, and we're seeing that as spread across the board, but we're just seeing unqualified staff. We're seeing teachers that aren't registered. We're seeing nurses. Well, let me not one of my teachers. My science teacher was the boyfriend of another staff member. He happened to do a semester of medical school before he dropped out to work in the forest service. And for that reason, he was qualified to be our science teacher to teach all of the
science classes. Yeah. But I brought this up and I was like where is your teaching degree and actually accidentally made him cry because I was, what qualifies you to teach me? This, like, I'm now a student at the University of Pennsylvania. Like my education was very important to me. I was like, this is a question
that has to be asked. Yeah, I mean at my school, our Spanish teacher is also the head of our kitchen, of course, and he was the Spanish teacher because he had worked in kitchens and had learned how to speak the Spanish language tacos. You know, it's there cleaning that they have nurses on staff. These people, these women these men aren't qualified to be giving out medications. Oh my God our Tech guy would pay and out medications.
He accidentally Gave ADHD meds to some random girl that was not prescribed them and he was like, oh, sorry. Oops. Well, you know, you see that, Jesse, it's mind-boggling. How many of these unqualified positions you see? I mean, I think when I look back to my time 20 years ago, our addictions counselor had lost his license to practice in 1992 for abuse of medications at a
rehab facility. He was the one abusing the medications when He was hired by your school, they just told everyone they had a certified addictions. Counselor parents don't think to look into the certifications. There are databases where you can legitimately go online and look and see if someone's registered as an RN or if they're registered as a social worker. And I think one of the greatest quotes that we've seen come out of, anyone was Maya salivates, who's an author who wrote a
massive book on this industry. One of her direct quotes was if they made sure that every staff that came in contact with a child had a master's level. Well, degree and was qualified, the industry would effectively shut down overnight. Yeah, because that was exactly how it worked at MacLean. That was not how it worked at Montana. It's night and day. Well, they're all, I mean, they're also utilizing things I know from my time almost all of
the not not our therapists. But most of the day staff that worked at our school, all had some sort of like Social Work degree from Canada, that they got a lie, they had never had. They had never actually had physical interaction. Our job fields, they were brought from local colleges because we're seeing that more and more. Now as we're seeing the 18 year, olds coming to these programs to
work as a day staff. Then they become a mentor and they could grow with the program and you're talking you have an 18 year old male or female who's just out of a program themselves. A lot of the time or they're just out of high school and they're dealing with children who are very close to their age and then the program is want to know why their sexual abuse happening. Yeah, you're putting children In Harm's Way.
Yeah, with every decision they make with the under qualified knowledgeable, and then when you look at the therapeutic programs, I mean, I think we saw a new therapy pop up at a program in Maine, where they call it neurological Reset Therapy. Oh boy. And it's supposed to be like, hypnotism and bringing your body back to its natural homeostasis. So you can relearn how to do things. That's not evidence, based proven therapeutic tactic. Know, I would love to hear you.
Talked about accreditations and certifications for Programs, not sap is a huge thing that these programs boast. So now that's a that's that was actually who I was referring to earlier the founder of my program actually helped finance some found that sap and that was in 99. So we're 23 years of a group like this out there.
You know they change their stances on things a lot over the history of time about what they were looking for how they they don't necessarily a credit is what we're learning. They are a membership-based organization. These programs are paying them for the stamp of approval from the knowledge that we're seeing. And you know, we're tending to see that. We think that the membership gets them access to courses that teach them how to fundraise
courses. That teach them about the specific laws different therapeutic techniques when you actually go to their website and you see the conferences that they have yearly you can look up course by course by course who's presenting what program they come from? I would as I said I wouldn't say their accreditation they're not accrediting but they are sponsoring. Yeah. And they're giving their stamp
of approval. V. Sadly, there's massive ones like The Joint Commission, The Joint Commission is tied to the US Healthcare System. I mean I don't think there's a hospital out there in the u.s. that doesn't have some sort of The Joint Commission. Yeah, but they're not seeing what's happening.
They're not getting the reports. This is Montana had not inspected my boarding school in 10 years, they apparently oversee these programs, they had not set foot on campus and yet there was no quote, unquote issue. Ooh, or problem with that in 10 years and the City Utah oversight, is they actually go in and count how many toilets there are per child and that's how they determine whether it's things. You know, we sadly have seen. There was a death at a property in Utah in February.
Yeah, the school's license had been revoked to operate. They appealed it. The state said we're going to have a hearing this past Monday. There was no hearing the state settled with them. And said, oh, we'll give you some governance. You can keep operating. Well, you've had a child You've had one that's been in news about massive neglect, for medical care, and, you know, the government doesn't see these things. They don't have enough proof coming out.
Yeah, because all of us children from these programs can say what happened to us, but our records aren't showing that that's even if we can get records because most of us cannot get our records in the state. I can't even get my high school transcripts. My school was not certified legally by the state as an educational center, I no longer have high. All transcripts. Wow. So here I am 20 years later. If I hadn't gone to college at all, I would be looking to have
to take my GED to get a job. After I went through schooling, the states don't see these things legislators are starting to see these things. I know that there's two legislators from Oregon and Washington to centers. Have actually opened up recent investigations into four groups, that own programs to get information like that there's been since 2007 or something like that. There's been like for National level investigations but the
outcome doesn't change. Yeah, because there's not enough record improved, that's physical. And it's teens, the Well, that would be sitting on a witness stand, our kids. And again, you had no access to technology. These records are being written. These patient notes are completely different from what you're experiencing like. How do you even remember every little thing that happened during like you and twenty nine
months of your life? Well, and there's a statute of limitations on when and what you can do and most of us from just the overall community that I've met. And I've been at, you know, I've had the privilege of getting to know and work with Most of us walk away, and it's like years down the road. Yeah, that's something kind of snaps and goes, wait, something wasn't right there was a problem, because when you're in these situations, you start blocking things out. And you're told, it's okay.
You're told that this is therapy, this is treatment, everyone around. You is doing the same thing and you see this abuse and you see things, but it becomes just general everyday. Like, you know, my parents being told, it's okay, I'm okay. You start to learn how to deal with it, cope with it, but a lot of us block out Recollection and then all of a sudden it's 12 years later.
Someone says something, and something snaps, and you're triggered and by that point, it's too late to get the Justice you deserve. And for me, I'm a big fear. I got out of that program. When I was seven, sixteen Seventeen something like that, there's that fear of doing anything. Because even though my parents, they didn't realize this program was as bad. They would never knowingly. Do anything to Put Me In Harm's Way? You still again? Don't have full autonomy over yourself your company.
Custody could be signed over. You could go back to these programs until you've passed that birthday and you have autonomy over yourself. Well, any that fear Starts day, one of the program. Yeah. You were constantly afraid of any consequence that could come from your actions from day one because every program is different but as a you know it's not only isolation restrained, that's used but don't neglect, your food, don't neglect, you water and my program but we had a section of.
It was called restrictions guys. Online girls. The other we did upwards of an hour and a half to two hours of army, physical therapy, exercises a day. We were building staircases and mountainsides. We were depleting the campus. We were building rain diverts. They had one punishment where they would actually have the group lift up. Telephone poles, carry them across, basically a football field, dropped them.
And then they say, oh, we don't like where that looks pick up the telephone pole, move them back. We're we're doing laundry. We're scrubbing things. We were hired to Child labor. Yeah, we're seeing a program in Missouri right now where the owner has actually specifically on his own personal Facebook page. Reached out to the public and says I will pay you to take children off my campus from like 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.
Saturdays and Sundays. I will pay you a hundred twenty dollars per child and the people in the town or the people that he knows are responding saying, well, they do manual labor and he will say they will do whatever you ask them to do, or what your family is doing. For that day, he is now literally prostituting. Turn out so that he doesn't have to deal with them so that other people could benefit off child. Labor crazy. Because again, likely he is
their Guardian legally. He has control over legally. He can do that. Yes, and that's where you begin to become afraid of every move. Every thought you have every decision, you make, and then you leave the program and you're constantly looking over your shoulder. You're constantly questioning yourself, was that the right choice? What's going to be the negative consequence that follows and that could follow?
You know, we see people who were in their He's now that it's ended programs in the 80s and 90s that are just seeing this part of how they were affected. Yeah, because it's nonstop. Yeah, is a traumatic experience. So two questions, one is what can listeners do if they want to help change the troubled teen industry, they haven't experienced it themselves, but they want to help work towards this increase. Legislation support these programs being shut down, what
are those steps? And then the second question will be how do you support a Survivor or someone that's currently? In one of these programs. So I think the first step is, you know, obviously spread awareness Word of Mouth. Yeah, that goes a long ways pertaining to something you mentioned earlier. You know, if you see that your friend has been sent away your friend disappears, in the middle of night, you find out that they're at a program, find out what the program is.
Contact a group like Breaky code silence or I Kappa find one of these anti troubled teen industry, advocacy groups, reach out to them. Our group provides things that we call facility reports. We are Happy to provide all research that we have. That shows abuse cases, lawsuits program, history, staff Supply, that to the relevant people.
If you want to get involved, if you go to the breaking code silence website, we have buttons where you can apply to become a volunteer, we have numerous things, we need. Researchers that go in and dive and find out the information on these programs. We have an active legislation team that is working on not only Federal legislation but State legislation. Anyone who's interested in that were more than willing to help. Help them learn the process.
He have research grants that were working with. We have a Publications Division. If you're a writer and you've experienced a facility like this, or you have a friend and you want to talk about that, we have a realm for you to voice that story. We're open to anything when it comes to just spreading the word and helping that get out there. When it comes to helping survivors. While we are not a support group, we cannot provide
therapies. We cannot provide You know legal recourses and things like that, but were there. Yeah, most of us have this common shared experience. We're there to talk. Were there to listen. We're there to be a shoulder for someone when they need it. We're a group of the way, the organization exists. Right now, I am on the phone with my team Daley, and we will be business business business and then something comes up and
everything gets put to a stop. So we can listen to someone because all of a sudden, something happened. Something Reconnected they reconnected to something, they were triggered by something were there to listen and support. We're there to help point you towards resources. You know. Well we cannot necessarily recommend therapists. We cannot recommend lawyers or anything like that. We do try to help you locate
that right person. We try to teach about the different levels of therapy, what therapies are proven and evidence-based that do work. It's so important and even if being a support system, like you mentioned, these programs are so isolated being one of As friends from home, that I was able to talk to that, you mentioned, being able to see being able to connect with that person and be. That one thing tying them back
to this life outside. This super isolated environment can be so helpful and so beneficial and was such a Lifeline for me when I was navigating this and made that transition easier because it didn't feel like I was leaving this program and had no one that even knew what I had gone
through. Well and I think I think that's the major key thing is that that time of leaving the program and readjusting to what actual normal society is is one of the hardest things for any child that leaves a program. No matter what age, I almost like to think of it as there's a 25 year Gap where that transitional period happens.
Yeah like it's not an immediate transition because you're starting to question things, you're letting teenagers who have had no sense of Freedom out in the world and you're dropping them off. You know, some of them I think I was out of the program a month before I went to college. Each, it's crazy and all of a sudden it's going oh there's fraternity parties. There's drugs. What's this? What's that?
I never had those experiences to tell me what was right and what was wrong and you have to learn in it. And sometimes as I said it's 225 years. Sometimes it's 30 years for people and we're really making that effort to try to find out how we can be a more support in that transitional period. How do we help people? Is it just to be there to listen? Is it to find out what the statute limitations is for them to get Justice? You know, how do we little
things like pop culture? Someone went into a program a year two years ago like Trends Tick Tock the music. People are listening to the shows that they're watching the language. They're using these things they've been completely isolated from. I was in an all-girls program, your ability to date and have
relationships. You would see a lot of different ways that girls reacted, after coming out of the program, education-wise I was at a huge deficit with what I had learned in Montana. Versus what was actually going on at a normal public high school. And I know, I mean, I think I failed, I was in college and I feel pre college algebra 3 times because my algebra teacher had no clue what he was. Teaching me with Calculus.
We watched no wedding videos every single day, like the test were open note like you learn nothing but you got the great. It's like, the craziest thing to adjust from and it takes time. Yeah, I just, I'm so grateful for you for giving so much insight into this, and so much valuable information on how parents Parents can look for these programs and make sure that they are sending their kids to reputable evidence, based mental health care if that's what's needed.
And for teens, what? To be aware of how to support people. And yeah, I'm just so grateful for you for opening up and having this conversation with me. No, no, I appreciate you having me on it. I think the one thing I can say is that for any parent that listens to this the one thing that we advocate for his keep the family together. Yeah. You're going to see probably more issues of attributes in a way in. Dissociation from the family afterwards and stronger
divisions between the family. Try to find those therapies that you all can do together as parents with your children. There's wraparound Services. There's different things. If your child has diagnosis, is you could take the same therapy as your child does to learn about those diagnosis and how to
better communicate. I'll just do your best to keep the family together, but I appreciate you bringing awareness to this because there are Realms where people talk about it, but there's not very many Realms like this where people actually get to have a discussion on Deeper level so I appreciate everything you're doing to focus on this. Yeah, the last question I want to leave listeners with is. If there was one thing that you wish the general public knew about the troubled teen industry.
What would that be? That's a hard question. Yeah. You know, I think that I would leave the general public with a knowledge of that. This isn't just surface-level things, this is 10 miles wide 10 miles deep. It touches facets of life that people don't understand. It does. And it affects more people than you. Think it does you probably come across Cross more people in your life that have been affected by this industry than you ever
realized. And just to start taking notice, and to be aware that there are people out there harming children to make money. Yeah, it's so true and the more you're aware of it. The more you realize, how much it is around you. Because again, so many teens have experienced this or know someone that has experienced this because the Teen Mental Health crisis is rampant, depression and anxiety rates are higher than they ever have been
before. And I think, because of that increase, we saw during covid-19 Can you increase in these programs and, and teens, and them as a response to that, as Parents try and get their teens help in whatever ways, they know how covid. Definitely had an effect with how parents responded to their teenagers and started looking for help. Even like you talked about an absence of medical care or medical neglect with covid. I think that just got so much worse because they're dead, you
were so isolated. There was no reason, no communication between patients and parents of this person has covid or they might have And also, these programs are a lot of the times and pretty conservative States. So vaccinations and masks and all these things that maybe you might have a choice about at home. You might not necessarily have it your program. So it just brings exactly another layer into this mess. I completely agree with you. Yeah, all right.
Well, for listeners to continue to learn about breaking, code silence, and learn about what you guys are doing. Where can they find you? You can find us at www.breakupbrad.com dot org and then on Social media, we're going to be breaking code silence or breaking code side. One, that's just breaking code. Si1 you can find us on all those different platforms. We do have a Facebook pages Instagrams. There is a YouTube that we're
revamping. Also if you just type in Breaking code silence on something, as simple as Tick-Tock you were going to be exposed to a whole new realm of personal stories and those that are out there advocating. Yeah, and if you remember, one thing from this conversation, if you ever hear of a program you're ever considering or program, a friend, is going all you have to Google is the program name, Survivor stories or the program name breaking
codes islets. And you will very quickly realize if it's a troubled teen Industry Program or not. And if you don't see anything popping up, we do have a place on our website where you can report a facility and it gives you all the information if you are a survivor of a program. If you're a parent who has concerns or friend, we do have places for you to report and also gives you all the direct links. You need to report them to the state to report medical license. Anything like that.
So there are those resources available with all the different advocacy organizations. All of us. Have those awesome? Well, thank you so much Bobby. Again, I'm so glad we got to do this and I know this conversation is going to help so many people. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to share with a friend or family
member. It really helps out the podcast and if you haven't already leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can also make sure to follow along at a cheaper solution. I stood podcast on both Instagram and Tick-Tock and check out all the bonus resources content and information on my website. She persisted podcast.com, thanks for supporting, keep persisting and I'll see you next week. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she
persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to share with a friend or family member. It really helps out the podcast and if you haven't already leave a review on Apple podcast or Spotify, you can also make sure to follow along at at she persisted podcast on both Instagram and Tick-Tock and check out. Out all the bonus resources content and information on my website. She persisted podcast.com, thanks for supporting, keep persisting and I'll see you next week.