Welcome to she persisted I'm your host Sadie Saxton a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. She persisted is the Teen Mental Health podcast made for teenagers by a team in each episode. I'll bring you authentic accessible and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental Wellness. You can expect evidence-based, Tina, proof resources, coping skills, including lots of DBT,
insights and education. In each piece of content, you consume, she persisted Offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle. While encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living. So let's dive in this week on she persisted I feel like we've just become this society. That doesn't really want to tell people how we feel about the relationship that we are in with them that their purpose.
If you are seeing that therapist, that is a therapeutic relationship. It requires work from you and also the therapist so if you're like any Thing is not working. Talk about therapy in therapy. Hello, hello. And welcome back to she persisted, we are talking about therapy again. And today, we are getting a therapist perspective on a lot of frequently asked questions that I get asked or that I had when I was navigating therapy, today's guest is Sean e-tron, she's an author, a therapist.
She also has an amazing Tick-Tock present. So you should definitely check out her videos and follow her. We talked all about Anxiety and discomfort that can come from asking for help meeting with a new therapist switching. The therapist that you're working with all of these things that you might have anxiety or concerns about my goal is that
you listen to this episode. You feel a lot more comfortable and confident going into your therapy Journey or continuing your therapy journey and getting support. We also talked about the very important and sometimes challenging process of finding the right therapist for you. Making sure that you have a good fit with your therapist that that relationship is in. A good spot.
And if you want to know more about all these topics, she has a book called dope therapy, which you should check out and I will link in the show notes. We're just goes into way more depth on all of these things. She just has such an amazing perspective. I cannot wait for you guys to hear this conversation. And as always, make sure to follow, subscribe, leave review. If you haven't follow on social media at actually persisted podcast, and let's dive in.
Thank you so much for joining me today, Shawnee, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. And yeah, I just can't wait to dive into this conversation. Yes, thank you so much for having me. I love talking mental health, so let's get it. Let's do it. Awesome, would love to start with a little bit of your background, how you started working in the mental health field and what brought you to where you are today.
So what started me in the mental health field, I feel as if that's such a loaded question because there's so many different narratives that I have that sort of play like a role but essentially where it, mainly started is iPhone. Love with psychology in high school. And then, when I was in undergrad, my first major was actually theater and I had this Revelation one day.
I don't know where it came from, and I was just like, I don't want to be auditioning for a job, like, for the rest of my life, and I was like, I think I can always come back to theater. And so I ended up changing my major to psychology and I got my first job in working with children. Were autistic and from there it just sort of like became my thing to make sure I had a lot of experience in different
areas. So from there, when I graduated from undergrad, I got my first job working in a jail, then I decided to get my Master's. I've done they treatment with teens. I've worked in the home with parents and teens, Private Practice. I've worked on the insurance side, but ultimately where I am today, I have always had a love Love of theater and so Tick Tock came along and I started creating skits to help people navigate therapy and I guess you could say Tick-Tock loved it.
And that's where we are today with what I mainly do. I love it were there any common threads that you noticed from all of these different therapeutic settings that you think would be helpful to share like all of these people are experiencing similar emotions. Are there similar? Fears or Is that people are experiencing that don't discriminate across these different settings, you know, I think more than anything. I really just wanted to connect
with people on a human level. I think about my own sort of narrative when it starts in undergrad, I think in your sort of thrown into this huge social environment, can we be honest for a second with like no legit life skills. And when I say life skills, I mean like men. Aging money. I mean my first semester I ran out of money on my what do you call it? Your meal plan and then it was like, how do I even know? What do I do? How do I eat after this?
And so for me it was I grew up with very strict parents and so I was struggling with drinking and really just finding myself and so I went to see a therapist and I didn't really feel seen as a person and so when I was working through all of these jobs, I really wanted to make sure that See, the person, regardless of, like, they are diagnosed with autism, depression, anxiety, if their teen in the system, I really just wanted to connect with the human behind all of that.
So, essentially, I found that in listening and truly listening to people. I found sort of my specialty as far as connecting and helping people find like, what is it that you really feel you want from life that is going to bring you? You Joy that will create happiness. I love that, but you touched on therapy, and that's what we're going to talk about foremost this episode. I want to start by talking about before therapy when. Yeah.
You think it might be helpful. I've done a lot of episodes talking about. Okay. How do I know if this is maybe a step? I should take, how do I know if his if things maybe aren't going as well? As I think they are, but I really want to touch on all of the stigma and anxiety and apprehension. That is associated with beginning. Her therapy Journey, And I think, even for myself, starting, any therapy session with a new therapist is really scary.
So I'd love to kind of talk their first giving your tips about what to do those emotions come up and then kind of your perspective on why you think that is something that so many people experience, whether it's like a society thing or it's just being so vulnerable, Etc. So if listeners are like, I am so scared to start therapy, but I feel like this is a good step. What is your advice there? So, it is scary.
And I want to normalize Is it because if you think about it, when we sort of meet someone for the very first time, it's more so sort of that surface level conversation. Hi, how are you? Are you in school? What do you do for work? But when you go see a therapist, it's like, tell me. What are your vulnerabilities? And what are your weaknesses? What are you struggling with? What do you cry about at night? Tell me yes, complete, stranger that you don't know. So that's like I don't know if I
trust you. I think that was really the biggest thing that Fear comes from when it comes to going to therapy as I don't know if I trust that coming into this room that therapist will create a safe place for what I need.
That's like one piece of it and I think another piece of it comes from what is their pee even like especially for people that may have never gone or if they have gone and they sort of had this like experience that team to therapy for them so that can also add to fear on different levels as well. So what I always say, Say is just what is it that you want from the experience and recognizing that you know yourself so you may know. Okay.
I don't know what I mean, but I know that things are often my life right now and I like to say off because I don't want to sort of encourage self diagnosing and so it may be like, I'm just not focusing. I feel sad all the time. I want to hang out with my friends, but I don't really text them back. Like, what's going on? So you recognize something Off. And then, what have you recognize? Maybe and the past for yourself, that was helpful. Was that okay, A friend that
really listen to me? Was it someone that offered you feedback? Was it? Someone that made you laugh? And so, if you can sort of pick out those little things, when you go to read a therapist is profile. Look for some of those same feelings. That may be evoked when you're reading through the profile. People may read a profile that says I use CBT or Or I use DDT, and for someone that knows what those terms mean. So cognitive behavioral therapy, or dialectical behavioral therapy?
May be like, yes, I know, that's what I need, but someone that is like, I don't know what that is made. Then want to read profiles that seem like I meet you, where you're at, one of the things that I do when I work with my clients is I listen to them. We collaborate together that may be like, okay, that's what I'm looking for.
So you kind of start with what may have been helpful in the past to be able to See if you can recognize that in a therapist is profile when you're reading through it. That's such a great tip. And I think depending on the website, they also sometimes will say like, oh I have a background in family systems or selfish. Yes or disordered eating stress sleep there. Yeah. Specialize in all of these
different things. So if you kind of know going into it like this is what I'm really worried about. This is what I want to focus on first. You can totally find a therapist that specializes in that area has a lot of Perience. And you can just hit the ground running and get a lot of great tips and advice and support from the get-go. Yes. And I want to add something to be mindful of is if you go to a
therapist is profile. However and they're like, I do cbt-i Duty BTW, I have everything, I work with stress for me as a therapist that's a red flag because you have all these skill sets and all these different areas that to me is like, what is it that you're good at as a therapist. So if you read them profiles and it's just this long Unless I'm always like, I feel like checked every single box on the website, you're doing too much, you're doing too much.
So you work with everybody, huh? Yeah, another really good thing there is that the age demographic, they're like, I work with adults and little children and teenagers, those are really really different types of therapy. So look for adolescent or a teenage therapist that works with Ben Folds caseload of other teens and they're like okay so the SAT season how are you feeling about that or like my clients are complaining about college? Maps. What is going on there?
That can be really effective to be aware of during the therapy search. Oh, definitely. If he's sort of come across a therapist that says they work with trauma. A great question to ask. Maybe, okay, so you say, your trauma train and you work. With all of these demographics, I want to know, how do you help me say a first-generation immigrant, who is 19, who is struggling with trauma? How would you help me? That may be helpful to also, sort of, like, we Through that
process 100%. What are your thoughts on? Why these emotions are so Universal with starting therapy like that apprehension? Obviously you touched on its really vulnerable to go in and meet something new. Do you think there is like still stigma that were experiencing and Society? Or do you see it more as like the individual emotional block, and having this new experience, I feel like it's getting better these days because we're now
having the conversation. Ends from, you know, within our immediate support groups to schools to corporations really just like not just having the conversation but also bringing in the experts to navigate the conversation. And so, the reason why it is a huge stigma is because it's passed down through like narrative if you think about it. So, what did your parents parents say about therapy? And then hear about therapy, you know? So, I sort of think about my parents.
He wasn't something that was an option or talked about in our communities. Be like, oh you're struggling in your marriage, you should go talk to someone. No, that's not. What was told. And so if that's not what they're told, how would they know to tell me any different? So I learned about mental health in school, that's where I really learned about how to navigate it, what does it look like to go? How do you advocate for yourself?
And even today as a therapist I'm still learning and through. My learning educating people that's something that I really like about gen C. And the newer Generations is I feel from my own experience and I've heard this a lot and these mental health conversations is that teens really pull their beliefs about mental health and therapy from their peers. So I noticed that there's kind of that separation from what their parents are believing that they're like my friends are in
therapy. I want to be in therapy too. Yeah, or like, this is what I'm experiencing with my mental health, and this is what my friends are talking about at school and I believe that. And so I think It's something really amazing to have that kind of sense of self advocacy and to kind of collectively make that shift and ask for help when you need it. And being able to advocate for that. I think that's something that's really cool to see. Yeah. And I think it's really beautiful to see to.
Yeah, because you feel less alone in the experience. I think it's one thing to be experiencing say anxiety. But it's another thing to experience. It'll love ya too to really feel like someone can truly get where you're coming from and validate it. Like they may not understand it. So let's say if you have a friend that's never had anxiety, but when you talk to that friend, you really feel like they hear you and they validate you that there's something so special about that versus
talking to someone. They're like yeah. So just get out of bed. Just take a deep breath. You cost us breath and it's like Doesn't really work like that. Yeah, I think that's something that's also added to the equation. Is that teens today are experiencing more mental health challenges than we ever have before and more stress and are operating at a different level. So even if you have an experienced anxiety, you've probably experienced dresses some point or some apprehension
or fear. So there's a lot more relatability amongst the population because so many people have either experienced something themselves or have a Very close friend or family member or peer. That has oh my gosh. I really hope that parents here. That I want parents to hear about so much because I feel like sometimes, especially when I've been working with teens and parents in the past. You can sort of hear those. What do you have to be stressed about?
Stressed, can look different for everyone like okay. Yes, the parent may be stressed about bills or taking care of the home, but that doesn't mean that a team can't be stressed about their exam. Their homework or you know, their friends, their body changing, they do have stress. And I mean I even think about teens today when I was in high school I didn't have to worry about school shootings. Yeah teens today. Do my dreams were like fire drills. And the one where you get under
the desk. Earthquake drill, stop great. Yeah, stop drop and roll. Yeah, don't do that with Quake guys. We really thought stop drop and roll is Gonna Save her life. I've never had to do stop drawing literally, I've never seen it happen, like that would not be something that would come to mind if there is a fire like, No. And so I think about sort of even just navigating that where they do active, you know, shooter drills. And it's a reminder right that
this can happen. So you're maybe going through the school year, you know? And then it's like oh it's that time of the year so stress can look different for everyone and it doesn't matter. The age even two-year-olds can be stressed out because they're not getting along. We pop. Yeah. I think that sort of belittle someone stress just because they're not in a dull, is it's unfair. Yeah. We also have to remember that teens brains aren't fully developed.
So even if you're like, well, I wouldn't be stressed about that the way their brain works. There are more emotional, they're less able to ration through things and logic through things. So even though you're like, oh well, if you're a little bit older, you want to be stressed about this? Well, they are right now, so that's not going to help them and adults act, like we've never been teams before. Yeah.
Yes, yes. Like, if you can just stop and remember what it was like being a teen, I think that'll just change your whole perspective. This one of the best things about having a Teen Mental Health podcast is, I have so many adults on the show because they can offer so much insight and expertise that Tia maybe haven't fully gotten in their life, but can benefit a lot from hearing. But every single time I do these pitch emails and get on these shows. Everyone's like, you know, my
teenage years are so rough. I'm so glad that I'm able to maybe help someone else through this. Everyone is that Universal experience of being a teen was really Hard, no matter where they're at now, no matter how great things are. Not our how quick they are designing their challenges. It's really a universal experience. Yes. And the last thing I'll add to those, I sort of think of adults
that were like, oh gosh. No, I'd never do high school over and I'm like so, you never do high school over but in the same sentence you almost say like, teens have no stress. Hmm. Let's think about that. Yeah, exactly. Today's episode is brought to you by teen counseling. You guys know, I can't have a therapist on the podcast without bringing up teen counseling because it's such an amazing resource. If you listen to this episode and you're like, okay, I'm
feeling less anxious. I definitely want to get support. I feel like I know what to look for in a therapist, but you're also not totally sure where to start. Where do I find a therapist? Teen counseling can be an amazing way to find a therapist that fits your needs. If you aren't familiar with teen counseling, it is better. Helps Branch specifically for teenagers, they have over 14,000 licensed therapist within their online Network and offer support on that.
Like, depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and so much more. They offer text talk and video counseling all from your home. So depending on what level of support you're looking for, they can meet you where you're at. So if you are interested in checking it out, you can go to teen counseling.com. So she persisted again. That is teen counseling.com says, she persisted to find a therapist that meets your needs. So the other side of the spectrum, we talked about getting into therapy.
We talked about navigating those initial anxiety. Is I kind of want to go, then the complete other direction and talk about what you do. When you feel like maybe therapy isn't working and you're like, I feel like I need to try something different. I'm not feeling better. I'm not seeing chefs, you do it that. But what are the things that you would want someone to look for other than like this is just so difficult.
I just want to quit. Obviously, that's yeah, one perspective but there is the concept of maybe this isn't the right match of a therapist and so it's very possible to be in therapy and be like maybe this isn't the best fit that is yes. Central outcome. So what's your advice there? What to look for and then how to proceed?
Yes. So I want to first like thank you for asking that question because even though I'm a therapist, I I don't necessarily believe that therapy is the only way to go about seeking help because we also have to remember that therapy is an accessible for everyone if that socioeconomic status, or if you're a part of a community such as like lgbtq+ or A bipod community and you can't find a therapist that looks like you will relate to you.
So I think about all of those factors and so if you find that therapy isn't working, it may be helpful to sort of identify why you feel. It's not working is that because you feel your symptoms are getting worse and that could be symptoms or things like, you know, you're not sleeping your appetite, your energy. Is it that you feel like you go every time and you sort of walk away or like, I just don't feel better because Can identify the cause that helps you to be able
to figure out. Okay, so what do I do next? So one of the things, maybe the therapist might not be a good fit, it could be for several reasons. That therapist may not be a good fit, maybe it's their style. Maybe the techniques that they're using aren't helpful for what it is that you're experiencing. Maybe they don't have experience in the area or concern that you're bringing into the sessions.
So all of those viable options, the The thing is, sometimes people aren't ready for therapy and I think that's valid. It takes a lot emotionally and I think a lot of people sort of see therapy as I'm going in one hour. We boom, that's the work. Oh no, no, I'm so sorry. Yeah. It's outside of the session that one hour Did you sort of like, put it down, let's say you're awake like 16 hours out of the day, right? That's one hour. And that's just one day that you
see a therapist. And most of the time you sort of like, Processing. The action steps takes place outside the session because most of the time we want behavioral changes in order to get behavioral changes. We have to actually put that into action and sometimes people may not be ready, a great example might be I don't like the way that my mom talks to me every time I go home from
college, right? So then you made talk to your therapist and they may be like okay so let's set some boundaries you may not be ready to implement the boundary with A mother. So then yes, you continue to talk about it, but the necessary step is going to be taking action. So at that time you may say, like, okay, great I've sort of come to the point where I feel comfortable, I'd recognize that boundaries are needed. I'm just not ready to take that step.
But also remembering that it's important to surround yourself with community and support, so that maybe other friends, or another adult that you can talk to and one of the other things. Yep, I'm going to say it. I know people.
I'm going to say it journaling. It's so important because it gives your thoughts a place to go and if you're working on yourself being able to look back and reflect and see where you were, let's just say a month ago and where you are today can really help you with like oh I've been writing about the same thing for the last month. Nothing has really changed. Okay. Where do I see improvements in my life that I can sort of like switch around a little bit?
Yeah, I also Love what you said about not necessarily being ready for therapy because I feel like that's something a lot of teens experience. If they aren't necessarily the ones spearheading this journey. If you're listening to this podcast because you're like my parents are making me be in therapy, I don't know what to do about it.
I'm just looking to either speed this long, whatever it is, but especially in being a teen, that something that's really unique That You Don't See in a lot of other demographics, whether it's adult struggling with all these different things, if they're in therapy, a lot of the times it's because Has they're the ones that have advocated for that as a teen there is a high likelihood that maybe you weren't the one that made this decision whether it's because they're a teacher parent, or a
doctor. So it takes time to kind of not only warm up to the idea of being in therapy but develop your own reasons for wanting to make shifts and see changes and get better. And so I think that's something to also be aware of when you're like, is this working, do you want it to work? Because for a long time I was like it's just not going to To work. So I would go through the motions. I would show all sessions. I would run out the clock, but I
didn't want to get better. I didn't believe that I could get better and so I didn't see any changes. And so it definitely is a key step in the process, wanting that for yourself and deciding what you're working towards, and it can be different from what your parents are hoping for.
Maybe, your parents are like her grades are so bad, so that's why she's in therapy to develop better skills, and I don't know, do better in school but maybe you're like, I'm just so stressed all the time and that's why I don't know. Energy to work on school. So I want to work on stress and being able to have better ways of navigating that stress. So I think that's another thing to be aware of as a teen.
Yeah. And the other thing too that I want to add is it's totally okay to tell your therapist. I actually don't want to be here and my parents want me here so that the therapist can really hear your side. Even though you're a teen that therapist is your therapist, not your parents therapist and if your therapist is reporting, To your parents. What you were talking about in the session but it's not. Okay.
As parents are not supposed to have access to your notes, unless, for some reason it's mandated reporting and mandated reporting maybe like child abuse or that, you're going to harm yourself and not just any therapist. Should be telling you that there yet. Telling your parents that yeah, yes. Oh absolutely. And knowing to like, if you don't feel comfortable talking, you can do things.
I've totally sat down with teens and sometimes we play puzzles to like build rapport because sometimes your We activities and you don't even realize that you're talking and it's sort of like warms you up and feel more comfortable so if you don't want to be there after heavy tick-tocks, two sessions like Johnny's. Hey oh definitely. If it does not just have to be talking I think about sometimes.
I used to have clients that would come in early in the morning and they would like lay on the couch, they get the pillow, get the blanket and then I left him service it for like 10 minutes. And then it's like, hey, what do you wanna do? You wanna play a game? Don't do puzzles. How How can we sort of make this your time and not the time that your parents are telling you to come here? Yeah, I think that's huge.
So if you've identified that it's not the right fit, you're not seeing the shifts that you want to. You've been like I feel like I'm invested in this. I'm giving it my all still. I'm not seeing the outcome, I want, how do you break up with a therapist? Because that's something that you can do, it's something that is okay, to give. It's okay to switch providers. And you think most people don't? That you're like I have one therapist. I rest my life, that's how it's
going to work. Unless I knew ver have this crazy change happen, know you can switch therapist. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. How do you navigate that transition? And then what is helpful for you to hear as a therapist have you ever had someone? I don't not like ghosts but text me back. I'm done with therapy by obviously helpful. That be here.
Look a like I think this is what I'm going to try and focus on or I'm going to try some time outside of therapy and then maybe revisit so. What are your thoughts there? Yes. So, the first thing that I would say is, there's several ways that I sort of see with, breaking up with a therapist, if you're someone, that knows, okay, this isn't going to work, it's okay to goes, I want to validate that, we're not your friends, so you're not ghost in a friend, it's a very good therapist.
So many skills to be able to navigate that like it's not like some emotionally unstable ex-boyfriend, they're going to be fast, they will move forward. Now, don't get me wrong, we think about you. Because I definitely had where I'm like, man, I wonder where that client is today and I wonder if they're okay. So that's the first thing you can. Totally guys, think I bring so much to the play as a therapy client, because I'm like they can just listen to my weekly podcast.
They know exactly how things are going. Yes, yes. Hi, we're doing well. It's going. Okay, like, okay, great. Good to hear. Another thing that I would say is asking yourself like Why is it that you want to break up with your therapist? Okay, so short story, I did try
to break up with my therapist. So the best way I can describe it is the new therapist that I had started seeing, and the way that they're scheduling was set up was different than what I was used to. So I as a therapist, when I get a new client, you get on my schedule and then I just add you, it's just every two weeks, it's just a reoccurring appointment. This particular therapist makes the appointment after every session because we So I was
like, oh, I don't know. So that means like what is there? Someone that you saw yesterday and they're like, I need five sessions next week and then the spots are living. I don't know. So it's sort of and like there's a day for therapy. You're like Tuesday's therapy day. I tell ya, emotional things to talk about for Tuesday and then we reset that's just how the world works.
Exactly. So that he was different and then I remember I was like, oh well I just want to do reoccurring appointment and I remember the therapist, I think we acting like in a way. I was like, oh, you don't Like reoccurring appointment. So I made the next session and then I emailed them immediately afterwards.
I was like, hey, I don't know. I was like all of my feelings and I was like, I don't like the way you looked at me when I asked for the appointment, I'm just letting, you know, I don't want to work with you anymore and so you can email them. Here's the thing though. My therapist was a great therapist. And they were like, no Shawnee, you can't email me. I'm gonna call you about your email that you sent me and I ignored it.
And she left me, this really beautiful message and she's like I'm hoping that you will allow me to explain myself and let's talk about it and you actually not get charged for it. I want to give you a free session to talk about this and I was like, oh wow, you really care about this and essentially what it came down to it, they explained to me how they're scheduling was going, and they had never had anyone ask, well, can I just get a reoccurring appointment?
And so it threw them off. It wasn't that they didn't want to make it. They were just trying to process how to handle that. That and we ended up continuing to work past that rupture and it ended up being really great. So, I say you can email, but I say knowing why?
Because if I would have just sent that email and not responded to the voicemail, I would have been without a therapist but the therapist took the time to explain to me and I was like, okay, so I don't need to end so you can email. Another thing is talked about in your sessions, but if you're sitting there with your therapist, the therapist can handle constructive criticism. And feedback.
So if you're just like, hey, I just want to let you know, this isn't working for me. The therapist can help you figure out what isn't working. Is it that their purpose is style? Because, here's the beautiful thing therapists are ethically required to give you referrals. So if you tell your therapist, this isn't working for me, and this is why that therapist can offer you referrals to help you find a therapist that may be working with sticks.
The leg work out of it. Yeah, I think also, you are using a lot of really great skills to be able to have that tough. Ocean and set that boundary and whether it's a phone call, or an email or in session, you're doing the therapy work, just in that. When you have them on the other side of the couch, or the table, or whatever it is, who is really, hopefully very effective and has a lot of experience using these skills.
Be your building that muscle of having tough conversations, setting boundaries and advocating for yourself which is something that's really cool. And I think worth celebrating if you can set that boundary and make that shift, yeah, and advocate for yourself. Do I think it's also effective communication skills where I feel like we've just become this society. That doesn't really want to tell people how we feel about the relationship that we are in with
them that therapist. If you are seeing that therapist that is a therapeutic relationship. It requires work from you and also the therapist. So if you're like anything is not working. Talk about therapy in therapy. Yeah, yeah. Well, I love that for listeners who want to continue to consume your content. You have a book coming out and just continue to follow along with you, where can they find you? So I always say, it depends on
what you want to find. If you want more of sort of the straightforward, mental health content. You're definitely can find me over on Tick. Tock, if you want more of, sort of a personal insight to not just mental health content, but my life, you can find me on On Instagram because that's where I like to hang out with stories.
And then of course if you were just trying to navigate therapy in general, you can purchase the book, dope therapy, where books are sold Barnes and Noble Walmart, what is that big amazon? Which literally can guide you through? How do you find a therapist questions to ask a therapist to see if they're a great fit, how to do the work in the session understanding trauma kind of break up with your therapist and there's exercises in the book too. Be able to help guide you on
your journey. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited. We got to do this and I know this conversation is going to be so helpful for so many people. Yes, thank you so much for having me. Of course. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to share with a friend or family
member. It really helps out the podcast and if you haven't already leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can also make sure to follow along at at she persisted podcast on both. Instagram and Tik-Tok and check out all the bonus resources content and information on my website. She persisted podcast.com, thanks for supporting, keep persisting and I'll see you next week.