Thinking Sideways: Wonderland Murders

long time since we've done this. Yeah, for us, for you, we've been putting out episodes us. We just finished the summer series we're in. Yeah, we didn't do anything, no, super awesome. It's really cool. Nice to get a break here from all this hot action. But it's it's a little weird now because it's been a long time and I don't remember how to operate any of the equipment.

Did anybody remember to turn the mixer on? It appears to be okay, okay, sweet, all right, well you know we should we should get this off on a good foot, so we've got to do the cheers, So everybody put your hands in the circle and on three one two three awesome okay, perfect, it's going to be another fine episode. Igod, I got it wrong. It's supposed to be detch Lindy, We're always all right. Um Well, this week, everybody, we are going to talk about the Wonderland murders, which took

place on the first July in Los Angeles, California. And a quick warning to our listeners. This story covers a very brutal murder and it's gonna have a lot of conversation surrounding drugs and pornography. So if that bothers you, turn us off now. But or more importantly, if you have little ears around, you need to pause us now and come back later on your own. Little leaders don't need this. Yeah, or you know, get those those ear extension things come on earbuds headphones. No, you know the

things that make your ears look bigger, the spot ears. Yeah, why so that you don't look like you have little ears anymore. You would be thinking about it. You've got kind of little ears. Okay, we're going to keep going. Um So, before I move into anything about the story, I do want to say that this was a listener's suggestion. The first person to suggests this was Angel, So thank you. Angel and anybody else who suggested it, thank you as well,

just don't have those written down. Oh, by the way, I want to get a shout out to Elena, or maybe it's Elena who was all hurt because I did an episode and I forgot to give her a shout out, so I was sorry, Elienough every time the list is big, it is, but it does have us arch function like our website. Yeah that's true. Okay, so let's go ahead

and get into our story. Uh. This story is typically either referred to as the Wonderland murders or sometimes you'll hear it called the police actually started calling it this was the four on the Floor murders. You can probably guess by that second name that four people were killed. And if you know Los Angeles at all, you're going to be aware of in the valley, it's uh, Wonderland av and it's what's the name of the valley? I

just suddenly lost it. It's Laurel Canyon. Yeah, so it's it's in Laurel Canyon, which I know I am already screwed it up. See, we haven't done this since so long. I don't know how to talk worth than normal. You haven't spoken in like a month, I really haven't. I took a vale of silence and everybody was happy. But anyway, so that is where it took. All of this took place. So here's what we know as we take the story

from the start. Sometime in the night or possibly in the early morning hours of July one, someone gained access to the three story house at eight seven six three Wonderland av and they proceeded to go through the house and beat every person they found to death or nearly to death with a pipe pipes ye, possibly plural. We know that they were using pipes because of the fact

that they were threaded pipes. They had threads on the end, and they left impressions in the bodies as well as the walls and the furniture, and their heads in the bodies and the furniture, in everything. It's yeah, it was brutal. At the time of this attack, there were five people in the house. The first person was twenty two year old Barbara Richardson. Four people died. Five people were in the house with the happy story sort of damage. Um, yeah,

well no, okay, so Barbara's the first person. Now, Barbara was the girlfriend of a man named David Lynde. David Lynde wasn't in the house at the time, but we're going to talk about him a little bit more later on. But she was sleeping downstairs on the couch and was most likely the first one to die because she was sleeping near the front door, and the access was gained from the front door. Probably, yes, Okay, yeah, there was.

There was a garage and a front door, and from what I can gather, I've never seen I've never gotten a good picture of the garage to say that there was stairs. I think it was you parked in the garage and then you walked up the front step more like a car poard sort of situation. Well, it was, it was under the house. That's my impression is going on to the right side of the house. There's just

there's an external stairway. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is that I've seen the police footage and that's where I was trying to figure out there was internal stairs from the garage. Whenever you go on like Google street view. Of course the garage stores closed and somebody lives, so anyway, the access is most likely from the front door, which was on the side of the house, and she was sleeping on a couch on that floor that would have been near that door. So she's probably the first one

to die. She more likely she might have been the person who got up and answered the door. If if she did indeed let somebody in, then yeah, she would have been the first one to die. You're absolutely right that it wouldn't have been died in her sleep. She would have been awake for it. But that's hard to tell. Yeah, that's completely total conjecture. We go to the first bedroom,

which I believe is on the same floor. The layout of this house is weird because it's kind of narrow and tall, tall because lots in that area, because it's expensively Yeah, it's like San Francisco, you know, skinny tall town home. So I believe the bedroom that was also on the first floor. But in that bedroom, um, there was Ron Lonnius and his wife Susan. Now Susan bad timing on her part, wasn't normally there. She was visiting to try and fix her marriage with with Ron Lonnias.

But they were sleeping in this first lower bedroom and they were probably the second and the third to be attacked. She he was beat to death. He was killed. She, however, was not killed. She was beaten so severely that she suffered brain damage and amnesia. She has memory loss for the whole event. She doesn't remember anything well reasonably, she was beat so bad that they thought they had killed her. And you're absolutely right, Yeah, it makes total sense that

she didn't. Her brain didn't catalog. Her brain was dead maybe for a while effectively. I don't think intentional anymore, but yeah, I think her brain might have been like okay, bye, yeah, brain shutdown. Um, but okay, so then we're gonna move upstairs. So now we have two people who are dead and one who's alive. If we go upstairs to the master bedroom, Billy dev Role and his girlfriend Joey Miller. Joy Miller. It was her house. She owned the house, and Billy was,

you know, obviously her living boyfriend. By the way, she's she's kind of all these people are a little bit tragic in a sense. And because I've seen pictures of Joy when she was younger and she was studying, she was, yeah, and by the end she was What about Billy, he was he was like an average looking guy. He was kind of what about Ron was he looking no, no, no, I mean there was nothing outstanding about any of these

people in the looks department. One. By this she had come from a rather affluent beginning and then she had slid downhill. One would assume she owned owned a home in l ah even in the eighties. That still, yeah, that she apparently looked like crap by the time she died. But yeah, no, she looked really bad by the end, just because of the drugs. But um so, anyway, they are in the master bedroom and they were also both beaten to death. There is footage of ailable of this

crime scene. The police who went into it, they described it as an utter blood bath. They've said it looked like somebody walk through the house with buckets of blood throwing it around. That's how brutally these people were beaten. This was one of This was such a drum just crazy scene that for the first time ever, the Los Angeles Police Department took a video camera in and video

videotape the entire scene. Get remember, this video technology is not something that cops normally would have access to, but they recorded the whole thing that's available on the internet. I'm going to tell you now that it is not for the faint of heart. If the sight of blood bothers you, I wouldn't watch it. We're probably not gonna link to it, but it is a very simple string of Google you can find it. So how did the police find out about this? Though? It's a very good question.

So we don't know if the attack happened in the late night or early morning of the first July, but the dark hours, the dark hours, but sometime during the middle of the day on the first July. There's a guy working next story. He he was a mover and he kept hearing moans, he kept hearing noises, and what he turned out he was hearing was Susan because she was alive. Were they kind of town houses like really close together together. There's super tight there is there's probably

ten five ft between him at the most. You know, I always have, we knew, but now they're they're right next to each other. And so what he did is he walked up the house and he could I think he looked at the door and he had seen that's all he needed, and he called the cops. And so the cops came, and some of the bodies were so badly beaten that they couldn't identify them from their face. Is it took fingerprints and luckily they had all been arrested before, right, they had all been uh it through

the system. Yeah, so they're their prints were in the system luckily. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, it turns out that whoever had committed this act, theoretically, at least we believe or the police believe that whoever committed that these murders, what they did is after they had killed everybody, they tore the house apart because it was an utter disaster. And they believe that what was going on is that they were they were looking for drugs and money, no doubt this was this was a drug house. It was

a drug house. And that's that's exactly why is that if you haven't heard of this story before, you you've got to be let in on this little secret, which is Ron, Billy and Susan were part of what was own as the Wonderland Gag. The gang was notorious for selling drugs out of the house, and primarily they were selling cocaine. They were all hooked on um heroin, but they sold coke because it coke made the most money.

And I heard that these guys were actually kind of blatant about what they were doing, because I heard about like you know, people would come by and instead of coming into the house, they just got to the lower balcony and just say, tossed me the tossed me the water cash and then they would drop the drop the drugs down into their hands. Yes, I mean it was the eighties in l A. It's not as though, you know, when they were operating, everybody was doing that stuff. It

was kind of commonplace. Yeah, I guess, no offense to anybody who's offended by that. Now, I meant it. I meant the offense. I'm sorry sounds there for saying that everybody was doing coke in the eighties in l A. My mom for a reference, my mom lived in l in the late seventies early eighties. So, I I know you've heard some stories. I've heard some stuff. So here's the thing. Let me let me give you a Let me give you some information on what a class act

the Wonderland Gang was. So what they would do is they would sell drugs, but to acquire drugs. Yeah, they would buy drugs and resell them at a higher price, but they would also steal drugs and what they would do is they would go to other dealers. They would steal, get police badges, you know, stolen or fake whichever, and bust into somebody's house pretending to be the cops, steal all their drugs and money, and then turn around and sell those drugs back on the street. And so it

was nothing but but pure profit of that. Yeah, and really, what are you gonna do. You can't call the cops and be like, hey, somebody stole my cocao. Actually is one thing you can go buy and beat them to death with the pipe if you know who it is. Yeah. That's the thing is that these guys they had to look like cops. So it wasn't as if they were masked. If they showed up with police badges and mass everybody like,

you're not really a cop, screw you. But when you show up as a you know, with a gun and a badge, people tend to not resist. And that's that's how they worked their magic. Um. This reminds me of the first season of True Detective. Yeah, you know, do you see did you watch that? Yeah? When you know he goes undercover, Yeah, going to the house. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Crazy good series. You gotta

recommend that. Ye. So here's the thing is that drugs people are coming and going to this house all the time, and drugs are being sold out of the house all

the time. So that's part of the reason that when the attack took place, it wasn't reported because all the neighbors, I mean, it had to have been loud, there had to be screams and shouts of just you know, pure terror and pain, and and nobody called the cops because they were like another freaking party next door and they're just hopped up, and they would either ignore it or is one lady said she turned up the TV to

drowned it out. Yeah. You know what I've actually noticed, particularly if you are used to hearing screams a lot, it's hard to delineate screams of like joy and a differentiation, yeah, from screams of pain, particularly if you know, I mean, like, Okay, so if if any of our neighbors started screaming, we would immediately be like, oh God, something's wrong, right, But if they're screaming all the time, if you scream, start to tune it out, right, And you definitely aren't going

to tune in if suddenly it sounds a little different. So you know, I know that there are people out there who will always say, well, no, you would you can tell the difference between those screams, but I don't. Well if the other thing is the neighbors might have heard the screams and thought that sounds like somebody's being murdered.

But I really like those people, or even like or even they've beat some other people up in the house before, like the people who lived there would bring people and beating them, you know, like, it's not if somebody tries to screw you on a deal in your house, it's a it's a well known fact that people get their their ass handed to them for doing that. So you'd be used to hearing this stuff. So we're we're gonna

keep moving on here, um as um as always. On the first and July, people showed up at Wonderland av at that house. This is not the cops, this is not the mover. This is people who want their drugs as and I need to get my fixed show up and nobody answers the door. And it seems that the door at this point was unlocked and open because people apparently we're wandering through the house and going, oh, look, there's blood everywhere and they're dead. Hey, I'm gonna going

to ransack the place. Yeah, I think it's some money to say I could sell this stuff to get some drugs, and maybe they got drugs and maybe they got money, and all their buddies, all their buddies see the corpses and don't call the cops. They just ransacked the place. And so people tearing through the house, So it made the crime scene just that much more difficult for the police.

I watched a video with I think it was the chief at the time, and you could tell that he was freaking livid over the fact that people and he didn't like addicts, I could tell that, and he was just super mad that they had been going through the house while all these people were dead and just didn't didn't care. I don't. I mean it's hard a little bit. I think if you're a drug addict, a lot of times you aren't thinking I'm gonna pull the steed here.

You're not thinking clearly and rationally. So you show up to your drug dealers house who's known drug dealers, and you're there, you know, in the morning or whatever, and you see that they're murdered, and you call the cops and they say, okay, like you're really this is the scenario you run through in your head, right, You're like, Okay, Well, if I call the cops, the cops are gonna ask what I'm doing here, and I don't have to have a good reason to be here. So, like you guys

were cool. I'm sorry that this happened to you, but I would rather not get thrown in jail. I'm going to be a suspect. They're gonna book me. I'm going to jail for the rest of my life. I get it, totally understanding that I'm just walking away, I totally. But also, there's such a thing as like anonymous nine one one calls. Yeah, Well, you know the thing about it is is they those guys had every reason to believe that somebody just like him was going to show up twenty minutes later, an

hour later. You know, I discovered the body, so they just figured I'll do a quick search, see if I can put some smack or a little cash, and I want to just leave. I do want to say something because we're we're about to go into we're gonna dive pretty deep into some rug adult behavior, some junkie behavior, and there it's gonna come clear. I'm just gonna be honest about this. I don't like junkies, and that's a

personal belief. I have problems with them. Now there is there are people who think differently than I and believe that you shouldn't blame someone who is suffering from an addiction. Well, I don't agree with that. So my point is I'm saying this now, let's agree to disagree. Please don't send me emails to correct my thinking. Just just my belief based on my experiences in life. Yeah, I'll say this, and that as it happens to the best of us, it happens to great people, and it happens to not

so great people. And let's just leave it there and let's move forward with the story. I guess I was just going to add that it is my sense that these people, drug adult or not, we're not necessarily good people. Anyway, they were not, and so so I think what Steve is trying to say is that this is not a sweeping generalization of everybody who's ever done drugs. Ever, We're just talking about these people, and we are probably gonna

like forget and use some more. It's going to come across the careful as bashing and I and if it does, it's unintentional but things. But we're also, you know, sitting in a studio drinking beer. So like, sorry, guys, but here's our disclaimer. It's not a sweeping generalization, even when it sounds like it. Okay, so let's move on. I want to talk. So we just we talked about all these lovely folks who have come through the house and

probably sifted through their belongings. Let's talk about a very well known person who frequented the house on Wonderland Avenue. Now he was in and out of there all the time. Yeah, and that would be John Holmes. Yes, John Holmes of the thirteen and a half inch notoriety. It was for one thing, he's a very big star. Yeah. And he had a long career and kind of really a big width of a career as it was. Yeah, it really was just spanned a lot of different he kind of

he did god get the whole hog. Um. On a really odd side note here, before we get too much into John Holmes or John Holmes anyway, Um, on a side note, this somehow has turned out to be the second story in a row where I've had Val Kilmer playing the lead role of the person in my story. Well, isn't that the new theme of our podcast? Because he was in the Lion one that I did Lasts. Yeah, and and he was in a movie called Wonderland portraying John Holmes, which I will not recommend anybody watch. It

doesn't hold up. Just a conspiracy, oh in it's a conspiracy. He was in a movie called Conspiracy. But you know, okay, it was in a lot of movies. But also, you know, I think it's it's easy to find um films with l Kilmer. I mean, you know, given his like really tragic past of you know, both of his parents being murdered and him like really facing his deepest fear. That yeah, yeah, that was that was. That was definitely another one of

his good movies. Um, okay, if anybody has ever seen the movie Boogie Nights, uh, that is loosely based on the life of John Holmes, It's okay, you know, oh, you can keep going. I'll definitely not cut that. But yeah, I know, if if some of the stuff then we talk about sounds familiar, if you've seen that movie. It's because it was modeled after his life. And we're now gonna have to wait till Devin and Joe finish their music. That song was put the best affect an airplane. Okay,

let's not get off track here. Was that not in Boogie Night? It may have been? It might have been it was an airplane. Sorry, Okay, I'm done. It's obvious we haven't done this in a while. We're freaking looping in with not back in our groove yet. Sorry, um okay. For those who don't know about John Holmes, uh, he was a porn star. He began his career as a nude model in the late or mid to late sixties and then moved over into making pornography in the seventies.

Because of the size of his package, he was. He was an instant star. He kind of a freak. He was. He was a huge star. Yeah, I heard that the story about his first He actually proposed this to this producer and said, hey, I'd like to be a porn star.

And the guy that took a look at him, because let's face it, he didn't have that really a manly if his no and there was nothing great he wasn't handsome by any manner of mean, yeah, much better looking, right, I just like, yeah, yeah, but the porcupine had a lot going on him. But yeah, so jog that's what it is. Yeah, but that's other guy looks at Holmes and just says, no, I don't think I'm interested in. Then Holmes drops his pants and it's like, oh, I

guess yeah, OK, yeah, now I'm interested. Yes. We were going to make a lot of films together, and they did. They did thousands of films. He was in over two thousand pornos in his lifetime. He says that he slept with over fourteen thousand women. Now that's by Holmes's account, and he was a notorious liar by the way. That about that, well, that's a hard part. We'll get into his lying here. Sure. I mean, if he was in two thousand pornos, he probably slept. I mean, I don't know,

so at least a thousands. Let me give you this here. So he was in pornos, he was doing nude modeling. He would um, he'd pimp himself out. He would have sex with people for money. And later on it turns out he was having sex for drugs because John Holmes was a giant coke fiend, A huge coke fiend. Yeah, he wass coke feed I am actually surprised the guy's

heart didn't just explode. I mean, he was doing that stuff in such quantities, you know what do really long line obviously had a very strong heart to be able to perform in that field the way he did. Freaking jokes here, Okay according to Holmes, Um okay, So yeah he was. He was a huge coke fiend and he was. This is this kind of his money aspect of it, because Holmes made a lot of claims, As Joe said,

he was kind of a notorious layer. He claimed at one point that he was making seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year. This is in the seventies, mind you, which that's gotta be over a million million and a half in today's money at least, probably more like several million. Acts. Yeah, but he was, yeah, because he was making all that money from, like I said, through movies, photos, and turning tricks.

Private events he called them private events. Yeah. I don't know if it was seven fifty, but I'm sure he was making a pile of money he was making a huge flushed it all down the toilet and drugs. Well yeah, And that's the thing is that when John Holmes first got into the industry, he didn't smoke or he smoked cigarettes, but he didn't do anything else in it. And then he started doing pot, and he started doing quayle lose, and he started doing cooke, and it just it just

progressively more and more and more. Um, four point five million, four point five million, jeez, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is the guy had a kind of an addictive personality. He certainly seemed to adicted to sex. Yeah, and by the end of the seventies, he into the early eighties, he had progressed. His usage had progressed to the point that he was free basing cocaine, which is the equivalent of crack as far as I understand, and he was, you know, he's taken as many drugs as he can. He was

known this is how much. This is how much drugs this guy would take. He was known for carrying a briefcase at all times, and in that briefcase was his drugs and his paraphernalia. And he was taking a hit every five to fifteen minutes. Well, it had a negative side effect, which is that his his main claim to fame was no longer functional. Huge draw, a huge downfall. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah it was. It was. It was black and Mark. He was actually kind of a small

and flaccid at that point. Well relatively, let's be honest, um, But anyway, so when you show up in the set and you know you can't perform, well, well the problem was he couldn't perform. He also only wanted to do drugs, so he would be they couldn't find him, and then they find him and he was just high as a kite. So we just he got blacklisted. He people gave him chances and eventually everybody was like, dude, get out, we don't care. They called him the King, and the King

had left the building. Can't been kicked out of the building. It was King of Porn there for a while. But yeah, by the end they were they were joking that the only way to get him on the set was to leave a trail of cocaine. They did so. So at this point, he's gone for making all of this money to not being able to work, but he's still got this massive addiction and he's got to figure out how to support it. At one point he took to um. He took the stealing from cars, you know, stealing stuff

out of cars. He would also go to Los Angeles International Airport and walk up the baggage claim and just grab a couple of bags and walk away to sell what he found in the bag. Yeah, I know this seems silly, but like, I just don't understand why people don't do that these days. Still, I think there's more security. There's that much security around baggage claim. I think there's more security than you realize. I mean, yeah, and I've student baggage claim and waited for people, and I've noticed

the security just because I'm standing around, right, I don't know. Yeh, when I was at that age because I was alive back then, it was typically kind of a spot check kind of thing, so you could get busted. There might be a guy to lock up and say, hey, you know, I canna check your check your ticket against your bag, but not always problem. You can just drop the bags and run and then it's most likely just gonna pick

the bags of putting back on the carousel. So at this point, like I said, he's stealing to make money. He um scumbag that he is. He's also doing some other really terrible things. Holmes was married when he got into the porn business, and his wife was not down with it. Well, I like that. I like the way he just sort of like come, he started doing porns without telling her, and then one day he comes so and says, hey, I found my I found my calling

in life. And he said, really, what is it? I want to be a porn star and I just want to sleep with a bunch of other ladies on camera for money. Yeah, and she was not okay with it, I understand, but she wouldn't she didn't divorce it. That's what I don't understand. They were married for ten years, they were together. She didn't sleep with him after he

started performing. Okay, I think gonna seem really really um jaded, probably, but I totally understand if she even saw like a couple of them and saw his upward trajectory and able sorry and was able to realize that he was probably going to make a lot of money doing porn. If she waited to divorce him, she could make a bigger claim on what he would owe her an alimony because she was used to a higher standard of living quote unquote, and I and you know, I never I never. I

know that they were married for ten years. I never looked at I think that by the time she divorced him, he was a total addict and he had dying zero. Yeah, but I'm sure she could make that. I mean she could at the very least be making a claim. Again, well, you can sue a guy who has zero dollars for a million and you're still getting en up zero. Absolutely, but if he ever comes back into money, he owes you a lot of back stuff. Yeah, I guess that's true.

H I hope our listeners aren't judging me, right, Yeah they are. But I gotta say, in the end, it was a bad call on her part because he went up costing her a pile of mind. He came and went and he used her a lot, like the time he stole her credit and charged and something like that. Yeah and all. Yeah, okay, so we were but we fell a little off track here. We were talking about married. So he was married and he was out of money and he needed to find a way to make money.

And uh, it turns out he wasn't above pimping out his girlfriend down by the way. He started dating don when she was fifteen. He was a twenty five thirty year old man at that point. And and by and by the time that he started pimping her out, they had been together for five years, so she was now twenty and he totally hooked on coke. He got he hooked her on drugs and then he put her on the street. And there are some terrible interviews of the

things that he would do. So he did really bad things with a lot of people, and everybody in the business kind of hated him. They there's an interview I was watching UM where somebody was talking about the fact that what a massive liar he was, and they said John Holmes lied as much as he breathed. He would open his mouth and garbage would come out, and he was known for screwing people over that he knew somebody.

There was an interview I watched where a lady said, yeah, we made the mistake of telling John we were going to be going running errands in the morning and not home till noon, and they came home at noon and their house was empty. He said three things. He said that basically, anything that was worth more than maybe three or four bucks he had taken. Yeah, I gotta I gotta tell you. After researching his life and after watching that BBC documentary, I just wanted to spray myself with

disinfective BBC documentary. Yeah, So I think I think it's pretty easy to say at this point that Holmes was not gonna win edny Man of the Year awards. He was. He was completely sez and so he was connected to

the Wonderland Gang. He was, Um, what what happens here is that Holmes is connected the cops On the tenth of July, they had figured out that Holmes was one of the known characters that went around that house, and they found he and on hold up in a hotel on the tenth of July, and they went in and they grabbed him, and Holmes, at least at first, told them a story that they really liked, which we'll get into here shortly. Uh, they tell him, or he tells

them this story. He says, you've got to protect me. You gotta put me in witness protection, you gotta do all this stuff, get done, get my wife, lock us all up so we're safe. YadA, YadA, YadA, all three of us, all three And they do they all are in a suite with the police for like two weeks, and then and he clams up and he won't tell the police anything else. In the little bits he gives them,

he is changing the story and it's all morphing. And eventually the Los Angeles Police Department has had enough of him and they cut him free, like, we give up, dude, We're done with you. Get out. We're not we're not protecting you. You're not telling us anything because he did. He just completely clammed up with these Oh well, I can't tell you because it's gonna be a danger to everybody, and blah blah blah blah. I mean, he just a typical garbage. There was another word I was gonna try

and say there, like um, A reliable person. No, he wasn't um. And so they they let him go. Eventually, though, the cops would decide that Holmes must be the responsible party through one form or another in the Wonderland murders. Well, he was connected and they found a palm print, and so the cops hauled him in and they had to chase him down of Florida to get him, but they eventually found him. Florida Man strikes again. Yes, and they put him on trial, but he got off scott free.

They couldn't make the charge of stick because the case was pretty circumstantial. There's not any evidence, really tiny amount, but not much. So at this point, what we have in in our story that we've spent all this time talking about is we have a house full of dead people and nobody who we can say for sure is responsible. So at this point, I think it's time to go to the theory machine theory mazine. Theory number one is that this is the revenge plot of Eddie Nash and

Gregory Dials. This theory is the most popular, joy popular, especially with the Los Angeles Police Department. The huge, huge, gigantic and a half. Yeah, the only way to the theories that it started realized kind of mostly on the testimony of John Holmes. So it's flaccid, Yeah, it's a

little Yeah, it's a limp theory. Um. So he let's go ahead and stop making jokes and we're gonna get into the actual meat of this theory, which is that we're gonna beat the meat a local drug heavy weight by the name of Eddie Nash, who, by the way, his real name was Adele nazare law. I hope I pronounced that right, Okay. Apparently he had been robbed somewhere between one to three days prior to the murders taking place. And Eddie Nash for a little bit of background. He

was a heavy hitter. He owned clubs and bars all over Los Angeles at the time, and he also sold a lot and did a lot of drugs. He was actually, he's actually an all American success story. He came to America from Palestine and with nothing, with nothing, he started a hot dog cart and turned that into a giant

empire of clubs and cocaine. I know. And he was He was not somebody that I would screw it, oh no, because he he also just like Holmes, he started doing drugs and then he got into free base and once he started free basing coke, he was he was off his rails. But we'll talk about that in the second. But the other player in this theory is a guy

named Gregory Dials. And Dials was a three pound bodyguard slash enforcer who knocked heads for him and he was a big, ugly, scary guy and he supposedly knew kung fu or something like that. No if you look at this guy, it was like, I don't see. He probably at one point trained in something when he was much lighter build, but then he got big and he just always said, I know, kung fu or whatever whichever won him.

You know. Actually, I gotta say that I know some people who are into martial arts, and even if you're kind of fat, I mean you know how to punch. You still you know how to you still know the techniques and you're still you know, so you can still do it. Just because he was a big guy. Yeah, and when you get to the five six hundre pound stage, well then you're kind of fat and helpless, but you know, it's three under pounds. You can still move pretty well,

I think, you know. So according to the okay, well actually not according to this series, it's pretty well known. John Holmes and Eddie Nash we're buddies. They loved to do drugs together. Yeah, I mean John Hols like he used Eddie because Eddie always had always had drugs, and Eddie like John Hols because Holmes was a celebrity exactly. And then it turned out Holmes might have been a

little bit of an anaconda. Yeah, yeah, he kind of did choke the life of this whole situation because, um, what happened here is that Holmes would buy coke from Nash, but eventually he'd run out of credit. I mean, Nash would give him credit, but you got to cut a guy off at a certain point, and he did. And it's at that point where Nash would no longer just give him coke on credit that he started hanging out with the Wonderland Gang. Most of the gang apparently didn't

really like Holmes. Uh it. I think it's Debel who took pity on him and let him hang around and run odd jobs for them in exchange for drugs. Yeah. Yeah, so they they'd have him do stuff to get to get drugs. But there are but there are stories, however, the abuse that he took for what he did. Uh Lonnius run. Lonnius didn't like him. He actually kind of hated it. Sounds much like you know, because there are there all these stories where they were, like we said,

they had parties of the house. People are coming and going, and Lonnius would make Holmes pull out as Johnson on command in the middle of a party just to show it to people. You want to touch it. Go ahead

and touch it, check it out. Holmes was exceptionally proud of his member, and so it probably wasn't that statistic on anous part, because but there's there's a difference between I'm I'm talking to you trying to make a drug deal and you say, whip it out and show it to the lady, say hey, wyt's you show it to everybody, and saying hey show it now. The question who who was actually in charge of the Wonderland Gang? So was

was the ringleader? He was kind of the man I'm sorry I forgot her name, the woman who owned the house, Miller. It wasn't her, no, no, nor her boyfriend who It was actually a dude who was in charge. Yes, absolutely, actually the lady that owned the house. She was a complete and total piece of work as well. She is described as the most foul mouth heroine addict ever. She was not a nice eight so it's it doesn't surprise me that she fell in with this crowd. She was

very vicious, as apparently Lons was as well. Yeah, um, so, so what's going on here is the Wonderland Gang? After Nash says you you can't just buy coke on credit. You gotta gotta pay me. And now Holmes is hanging out with the Wonderland Gang. They send him out to make a deal or to make a run of some kind. I the details are sketchy, no, no surprise here. It's basically I sent him out with a bag of coke and he didn't anything, and the holes we lost it. Yeah,

he probably snort right. The whole thing went bad. And they said, listen, you're gonna make it up to us or we're gonna kill you. We're gonna we're gonna get our money out of you one way or the other. Bub And so what what freaking Holmes is brilliant plan is is, Hey, let's up, Eddie. Nash had tons and tons of drugs and money and jewelry, tons and all kinds of things of value in his home. But here's the thing about Nash. He was absolutely insane at this point.

The man had been doing drugs in such quantity that he locked himself in his house. He would only do business from his home. Uh. He He used to love to walk around around in a robe and a speedo. He was a paranoid. He was a sadist. He was completely unhinged. If again, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to the movie reference earlier of Boogie Nights. If you've watched that movie and you remember, there's a character named Rahad Jackson. He's played Alfred molina Um and there's the

whole drug buying scene that goes south. That character is based on Nash. Salute nut job drug dealer, like the kind of guy that you just don't mess with, what happens to your free basic and eat holes in your brain.

Uh yeah, it's really too bad about Nash because he was such a success story and he just again he and he and Johnny Holmes were perfect for each other well, but but Ni also did a lot of illicit things from the very It wasn't like he was an upstanding businessman who fell down slope now, but still it's just like, you know, I mean, for both him and Holmes, things would have really been a lot better have they both

just not started. Yea. So here's here's according to the theory, here's what goes down the Wonderland Gang as I said, says, you need to make this up. He says, okay, let's rob it, heady Nash. So what they do is they send him. They send Holmes over to Nash's house under the pretense of buying drugs with money that they've given him. He goes over there and over the course of several hours, you know, he's he buys drug from Eddie nash On with cash and then proceeds to do the drugs there,

which takes hours. While he's there, he sneakily unlocks a sliding glass door in a bedroom and then he leaves. That morning, the Wonderland Gang show up, so he goes up there. In the evening, he goes back to their house. The gang shows up at Nash's house that morning with their badges. They come in through that sliding glass door and they robbed Nash. They put Nash on his knees and then on his belly, the same thing with dials. They they've got him a gun pointsing where the cops?

Where's it all? At handcuff. I think they tied him up. I think they tied him both up. But but they robbed him and they robbed them of anywhere between a hundred thousand to a million dollars worth of guns, cash, drug, jewelry. And did I say drugs because there was lots of drugs along with whatever else they thought they could fence. Now, if the Wonderland Gang did this, and by the way, they didn't kill anybody, I call that a major error in judgment on their part. Yeah, that probably would have

been a thing to do. Because here's what happens is, uh, Nash is flipping out furious about this, and he sends Dials out to figure out who did it, who hit him, and he wants to know. Like I said before, they it's not as if they were wearing masks, they police badges, but he just didn't know who they were. Dials goes out and eventually he runs across John Holmes, who he knows. Holmes surprisingly is or strangely is wearing a ring that was stolen in the robbery. Yeah, that's that's that's such

a dumb move. Yeah, I'm sure he just found that a convenient with that to hang onto it while I was walking around trying to find a place to pawn it, I imagine. And yeah, I want to again put this in here. We've talked at length about this, but this is still the theory. This is the story that is believed by the l a p. D. We've been saying a lot of this is if we know it truly happened. We don't know that any of this happened. I just

realized that we were saying this with such conviction. So he, according to the story, then what happens is Dials clocks. I'm sure he clocked homes, but he grabs homes. They drag him back to Nash's house. While Nash is screaming and threatening at and threatening homes, Dials is beating the living daylights out of him. This particular bit of the story does have support, and that support comes from a man by the name of Thorson. Thorson was Does you

guys both know who Liberaci was? He was a very famous singer at the in the seventies and early eighties, and he had a lover, Scott who was at Nash's house. And is that the guy from behind the candle Labra Libaracci? And I think he went back even earlier in the seventies. But you're saying they were lovers, the Thorson and Liberacci, Yeah, saying Libaracci was gay? Yes, yes, that is undeniably. Oh my Jesus, you might need to rethink your seduction tactics. Cow,

it's all making send. Joe brings a woman over and he plays Libaracci and she leaves. That guy was such a player. He put this coat on the labra. That was such a such a great dresser, and you know he's always been my role model. Oh my god. So Thorson and Liberaci had a thing going. But what you need to understand about Scott Thorson is he was just as deeply into drugs as the rest of him. He was at Nash's house for at least a day on

a bender. He Liberacci eventually cut their relationship off because he was stealing Liberaci's stuff and us again make good friends. Yeah. So so so that's that's where the there's this whole backup of Nash was screaming and threatening and Dials was beating the holy crap out of John Holmes and thinking, wow,

it's kind of a tackle area to wear that ring. Yeah. So, according to this theory, eventually Holmes gives in and he spills it all, and at that point Nash orders Dials to go to the Wonderland House and take John Holmes with him, and those two plus two other men go to the house to quote unquote pay them back. They they want to get the drugs and the money and everything else has been stolen and give him a little bit of revenge. Absolutely, the house itself had a buzzer

at the door. He had had an intercom buzzer. Steal great door system was necessary. Holmes was totally necessary because Holmes was the key to get in the door. According to the theory, what happens is that as soon as Holmes gets the door open, those guys rush in. Holmes is held at gunpoint and then they run through the house with pipes of Flaylan, killing four out of the five people. They homes watching or at least watch part of it, which is why his palm prints and fingerprints

were found at the scene. Possibly. So here's the thing about the it's a palm print is what is found of Holmes. And the palm print is listed in one of two places, which is infuriating to me because it's either it was on a wall or it was on a footboard. I heard it was on a like a bedboard, right that the footboard, the footboard of the bad not

the headboard, the footboard. But the problem is is that you know what I've never found was it just a palm print or was it the bloody palm print, Because if it was a blood bloody palm print, I feel like the case against him would have stuck. If it's a regular print, the guy was in the house on a regular basis. This is my problem with the the L A p d. S theory is that if it was a bloody handprint, how the hell did you not get your ducks a row and enough to prove that

this guy was culpable. Well, no, you can't, really. I mean, if this guy is if this guy has a story that they held him at gunpoint, which by the way, I don't believe they did. I think that that was that was he was there, you know, probably maybe, but I don't think it would have been necessary to hold a gunpoint. He would have been just standing there terrified, and he would have either tried to slip away or just prayed that he wouldn't get killed. But you know,

there was no need to hold him a gunpoint. And plus, by the way, Holmes had every reason to be angry with the Wonderland Gang a dog, yeah they did. And and also he actually dreamed up this operation of robberty Nash, and they got away with a pile of drugs and money and jewelry, and they hardly gave him anything. They completely ripped him off. He had reason to be angry with them. So I guess I think, Belie, even a bloody palm print, just to circle back here, isn't that

much crazier. I mean, as we've described it, and as we've maybe all watched on video, like, it was a blood bath in there, and if he was there, it's not unreasonable to assume that even at gunpoint, even forced to watch parts of it, a bloody handprint, palm print left there, like, that's not crazy, particularly if he was held at gunpoint and they're like all right, get up, and he, you know, puts his hand in blood and puts it on the wall to help himself get or whatever.

I mean, you know, that's not that doesn't prove culpability to But the L a p. D. S case was that because he was there and the story that they had been told, he was the mastermind of the robbery against Nash, which put him in a position of being responsible for the deaths of these four people. Now let me let me talk about where they got some of that because we have talked we very briefly talked about

David Lynde. In the beginning, Lynn testified for the l A p. D. And Lynde was his girlfriend, was the first was the lady that was on the first floor? Who was who the Barbara Richard the first one who was killed or likely if the first one who was killed. Yeah. So here's the thing about lynd He was brought in. I'm from memory. I want to say it was Lonnius who brought him in. Lonnius and he had spent time together in jail. They shared sell I think maybe, but

they knew each other from jail. He was brought in to help them expand their drugs selling empire. He was a biker drugs selling white supremacist guy. He was enforcer. There was again the words of words of trying not to say he wasn't a nice man and he is. Uh. He wasn't at the house that night because he had decided to go to a bar and was drinking and then decided to take a hooker to a motel room where they did drugs together. And there's a lot of

air quotes around what they did together. But drugs was probably involved in at least that somebody who was a drug addict might do drugs with a hooker. There might also be things they were doing, but the point is his girlfriend is at the house and he decided to spend the night with a hooker getting loaded. I mean, well, it kept him alive, but it's it's a gat. It just kind of I'm I'm adding fuel to the fire

about the character of this guy. He was also believed to have, previous to his time in Los Angeles, been a a c I, a police informant. He only knew so much about what happened at the house. He could have given the story of what he knew. Let's say that the hit on Nash's house really took place, he was involved in it. He knew what happened, and he could say that Holmes came up with the scheme. Whether he did or not doesn't matter, but he could say that.

But then after that, he has no idea what happened at the house because he was miles away in a hotel room. And this the convenient that he removed himself from the It's also very convenient that he was an informant, and so he would actually know exactly what to tell the cops to get a guy that he didn't like, John Holmes, into a boatload of trouble. So maybe we put a pin on that for a second, because I think we have some more Nash styles homes stuff to

talk about. You're right, Devon, we we do have more. But it's actually another theory. Well yeah, okay, so this theory number two is an offshoot of theory number one. We we talked about how the Wonderland Gang really treated John Holmes like a like a dog, a piece of dirt. They just they did whatever to him they wanted to because they could. This theory is that this was not only and the murders were not only an an act of revenge for Nash and Dials, but also John Holmes.

In other words, he wasn't held at gun point through this whole thing, but he actually took part. So he was an active contributor in the assault and killing of four people and the brain damage of a fifth. Yeah. You know, um, if I had been holes, it would be kind of an attractive thing to do that. Maybe

not attractive, but you know it would be tempting. Oh yes, to go to ask to go to act and say, hey, I heard you got I heard you got robbed, and I gotta say, I'm really sorry about this, but I know these people over here and I told them about you, and you're hidden safe and everything. I really feel bad. I think it might have been them, you know, and you know, so they could have been that. I don't even think you'd have to go that far. I think you could just say, hey, I think I know who

did it because they just gave me this ring. Does this look familiar? Yeah, you could do that, so they gave yeah, And then you don't have any kind of personal connection to the original. You just say something like, you know, hey, you know these guys were asking questions about you and stuff like this, and you know, and I guess, yeah, there's all yeah, there's all sorts of ways he could have actually played that gotten them murdered.

The hard the hard part about both of these theories is that um as we talked about Scott Thornson, his version of that night didn't come out for almost ten years. After he cleaned up. He one day recalled this and started telling people about it. Years later, Nash and Dials would start recounting versions of this but those guys were still in the drug business, and it was it would behoove them to tell this story about how they had brutally murdered four people in a house for screwing them

over on a drug deal. Well, it's actually a good thing that to let people know that, let the world know that you are not to be screwed with, because if you show weakness in that, in that kind of environment, then everybody comes to feed upon you. And you yeah, it's exactly why he would tell everybody, Oh yeah, no, well we showed up and we beat the holy hell out of them, and and just you know, and they

always did it in these weird passing ways. They never obviously they were smart enough to not say, oh yeah, we killed those people. But oh yeah, there was this time we went to this house out Laurel Canyon and some stuff happened. Yeah it was bad. Yeah, so you should be you should treat us right, Yeah, Okay, probably probably a good idea. Okay, Um, let's let's move on to theory number three, which now we're gonna this is one of those theories where we're gonna take a complete

and total turn away from the official version. We now have a completely different theory, and that theory is that there's a guy named Paul Kelly and uh he did it as a hit based on a bad drug deal. Funties for the Lulls, for the Raffels, these people, uh, these people seem to me there are probably plenty of people out there that wanted to kill them. Absolutely, even

Eddie Nash and and Dials are the prime suspects. You know, I think there's lots of other potential susps well, And that's exactly It may be possible they were in no way involved in the murders. If you remember, in the beginning of this story or my description of the Wonderland Gang, we were talking about the fact that they made part of their money from robbing other drug dealers. Uh, well, apparently they would also rip them off in bad drug deals.

Not too long before the murders, the gang had sold what they said was a pound of heroin to another drug deal or for two hundred and fifty dollars and it turned out to be baking. So well, now they cut it. It just turns out the cut was like, yeah, so this this dealer, he buys two hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of drugs just to find out that they are completely and totally fake, And in his fury, turns around and does, not surprising what a lot of people would do, he puts a hit out on him.

I couldn't I can't really blame. No, he puts out a contract and he says, you know, it's never said how much the contract is worth. Right, I'm just laughing because that's always like that train of thought to me is like so weird, where it's like, Wow, I just lost two thousand dollars. Better spend two dollars more to kill these people at no chance of ever recouping my costs. I'm I'm frantically shaking my head. No, it's not two K for the hit. It's I'll pay brand ahead, whatever

whatever it is. But but just like just like with Nash if if I, if you screw me, and I'm willing to pay another three grand per head, And so I just paid fifteen thousand dollars. But you're whacked and I'm still alive, and nobody else is gonna mess with me. I recognize. That's why we took the break, is because we had to find the replacement. Joe but I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me, Steve. I don't understand like why somebody would be like, Wow, I just

got screwed all this money. I know, I'll spend a bunch more money to get this back. Instead of going back and trying to steal from them, you're trying to get it back. Yeah, drugs and logic do not mix. I don't. Drug dealers in logic sometimes mix, rarely only in certain elections. But yeah, you gotta you gotta look at it this way too, is that these people have ripped you off and disrespected you, and it's definitely for a lot of people would be worth the extra money

to kill them. I do like the No Joe. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. This is a better clone than the last one. Okay, well, and that's all that all makes sense. So, according to this theory, there is a guy out there whose name was Paul Kelly. And by the way, I tried to find Paul Kelly information on this Paul Kelly Kelly, I know, I couldn't find any reporting on him. But according to

this theory, this guy took the contract. Um, it turns out he must have been, you know, one of the jillion l A drug dealers at the time, and that giant pond of cocaine fish um. But I couldn't find anything. But according to the theory is that he went ahead and he took the contract and he executed it, and he swooped in and he got his the seven pounds of flesh that this this two fifty dollar rip off

dealer wanted. Now, I know that people are gonna be screaming at their computers or iPhones or whatever saying, but Steve, the problem is that doesn't explain John Holmes's palm print, except if we move into the next theory, it may be kind of does because if let's let's let's go ahead and let's say that both sets of theories that we talked about so far are sort of right. In other words, the whole um, the whole Kelly part of it happened first. So Paul Kelly shows up, he kills everybody.

In the meantime, Holmes has been picked up by Dials and got the holy crap beat out of him by hit by Dials and Nash and Holmes finally gives usays, fine, it's the Wonderland Gang. Here's their house. But By the time Dials and Homes and the other two guys get there, Paul Kelly has come and gone and done his deed, at which point Dials is saying, Okay, hell, I gotta find my boss's product. I gotta find my boss's money and his stuff, and Dials could be the one that

is responsible for turning the place completely upside down. Totally. Absolutely could be that it was both sets happened at the same time. It's entirely possible. I could see where you could, like, you can make kind of a Guy Ritchie movie out of this different timeline. I would like I would like to see Guy Ritchie tackle the Wonderland murders. I think that Tarantino of this is probably more apt, So that would be that the blood level in that

would be probably accurate, the most accurate. Ritchie doesn't really go for the gritty. But but I can see the Guy Ritchie split timeline. Everything made something trap mind good call. This is like four rooms to me. Yeah, so we have one more theory, but god, okay, yeah, we're not done there. Um, there's one more theory, which I admit I made. This last one we talked about up in

my own mind. And I'm gonna make this last one up, which is that if indeed the Wonderland Gang had knocked over Nash and they had taken all of this stuff, they needed to move a lot of stuff. They needed to move drugs, they needed to move jewelry, they needed to move guns. They need to get rid of it all. So they're gonna be putting out feelers, which cause a lot of chatter. You know. The people who were in

those areas, they're like, oh, that's crazy. This house. The guys from this house just asked me about getting rid of all of these jewels. That's weird. They just asked me about getting rid of all these guns, to get rid of a whole bunch of quay louds. Yeah, and so they really Yeah, when when people come to realize you've got a pile of cash and drugs and stuff, Yeah you don't. You're not You're not clever about it now,

you know, deal with one thing at a time. You start asking all I want to get rid of it all just as fast as possible as a bunch of money. And oh, by the way, oh yeah we got money. We can make change for a hundred grand, no big deal. Yeah, although that's gonna draw attention. The flies are going to start coming in, and now it's time to come in and like take all that Athough, I tend to kind of think that somebody would have come in with just some guys and some guns and just robbed them rather

than beating them to death with pipes more likely. That's why I don't really like this one. Well, the thing is, though, is um so everybody in that house. Uh, they were heroin addicts. And the thing about heroin addicts is that when they get high, they're not active. They're very inactive. So you think I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna hold

these people up. I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, just tie them up and stick them in a corner and we're going to hold monitor and while we look through the house and try to find stuff or hey, how convenient they are all so passed out, they have no idea we're here and we can take a bunch of time to rouse them up and get them together. Or I could just club the whole only crap out of them and maybe they maybe they're done with it. You know. Actually there's an interesting thing and that is if you

watch TV. In the movies, there's this whole idea that you can cock somebody in the head and just knock them out. And what happens is you hit him on the head, you either piss them off or you maybe knock them out or you kill them. Um, it's like you know, and more likely you're going to kill them or piss them off. But the level, the level of the beatings that the it was pretty savage. This wasn't a I'm going to bunk Ferrell else out, you know.

This was I would like to see the inside of your skull, each and every one if you Well, here's the unfortunate truth is that if you're five feet away from another house and they're used to hearing kind of drug fueled parties, if they hear gunfire, they're probably still going to call the call. Yeah, but if you beat some people to death, I'm really sorry, But if you beat some people to death, and even if one of

them is screaming, the neighbors aren't going to call the cops. Yeah, I'm just saying that if you hold them at gunpoint and tie them up and tell them to keep shut up or they're gonna get killed, it just makes more sense to me to do it that way. I mean, it makes more sense, but I also don't that's that's a lot more work. I think that. But the reason I think is is robbery is one thing, but these were savage murders. It was not like it was like

there was a revenge factor here. There's also I mean there's it's there's the total possibility that this was a long term back and forth. Right they don't know about the Wonderland Gang had been robbing people and as far as we know, they had been getting robbed back, and it had been this back and forth kind of thing, and that finally this was the kind of culmination of that where people were like, I am so freaking fed

up these people at gunpoint, the combing back. I'm just like whatever, I'm just going to Yeah, I'm gonna take a pipe to their head. And there were lots of people who had a motive, particularly like you know, I've never been so high on drugs that I've thought this is like violence is a good idea, but it's there.

That's not also, but that's a long spiral for most people, and you know, to say like this will put an end to that, maybe that's what was happening maybe or maybe even you know, they hit them over the head once and they were like ha ha, and and I'm I'm more inclined to believe the one of the latter theories. These last two theories. I mean, like we said the l A P. D. S theory at the first couple of theories, those are the most popular. Um. John Holmes

is first wife. He was married multiple times, but his first wife came out years later and wrote an autobiography in which she at that point talks about the fact that how somewhere between the day of to two days after the Wonderland murders, John showed up at her house covered in blood and she put him in a hot tub to clean him a bathtub of hot water, nor the hot tub a tub of hot water to clean him,

At which point he was freaking out. She said, tell me what's going on, and he recounted some of what had happened. But a lot of people who have no Holmes have also said that her her book is a lot of fiction. Um, I mean, there's just there's you know, it's hard for anything that comes out of the mouth of John Holmes. I have a problem He told lies constantly, is his his autobiography. He didn't write a book, but he told stories about his past and it was just

all lies. The guy was a total skis I guess you know, for me, there may be some mill ground of like he wasn't this kind of Hollywood hero where he was like, I'm going to tell these guys to get revenge. I guess that's not a hero, right, anti hero whatever, Yeah, that's definitely not the hero. And then

he came in and helped. But there's also that possibility of like he told these guys, hey, these are the people who ripped you off, and they're like cool and helped him, and he was like, well, uh no, and they're like, but you obviously helped him and he was like, no, I didn't, and they were like, no, you did, and took him with them to witness this thing, and he was probably pretty traumatized by that, and you know, coming down from drugs and like seeing all of these different

horrific things, and he could have been really traumatized and and almost a victim almost right. There's some culpability issues there. There's some like really gut instincts like he was responsible for this but at the same time, but you know

what I'm saying, I get where you're coming from. My problem with making that kind of statement involving John Holmes is that he quite obviously didn't give a rats ass about anybody else's life but his own, because I mean, you know, Holmes died and sure because he had aged and that that's what he complications from that killed him. When he was tested positive that jackass was still in the business and didn't stop performing. He didn't tell anybody.

Now the word got out in l A. So you just want to Europe, Yeah, you don't care about anybody else's life, which is different with him being so traumatized by seeing other people die because he apparently didn't care. Okay, but let's be really, really honest here for a second. There's a huge difference between being responsible from somebody dying for AIDS or maybe contracting AIDS or HIV to seeing someone beat to death with a pipe in front. That's

a huge difference. But I will agree with that. But but my point is he obviously had no remorse, and that's I know. I'm not saying that he had some kind of remorse. I'm saying he could have been that. You know, he could have been trying to play this like both sides of the aisle sort of thing and it backfired on him, and they're like, all right, well you're going to watch this thing that you're responsible for. And he had to watch and he was like, God happened,

you know. I mean, and you know he watched that, and that's traumatic no matter what. Like, I don't think there's a human in this world who, like you get used to it, but like for your first time. I don't think there's a human in this world who the first time they see that happen is like, oh God, what right? And so I think there's there's some middle ground there in terms of like he could be totally responsible for both things but still be really traumatized and

trying to kind of cover himself, you know. But I don't want any send him because I think he's a total ski. Yeah it's time for me. I know who did it? It was yeah, no, And it wasn't choopy, no, it was I mean, this was an upscale This was just uncoke. Yeah. Yeah, but there was an upscale, very nice neighborhood and they were bringing down the property values association.

I think it was the neighbors. But I mean, seriously, if I if I was living at a nice expensive house like that, and I was like really tight close to them and everything and listen to this crap all twenty four hours a day, I would seriously consider murdering them myself. I really. While I enjoy that thought, I also think that these were some scary people and that you would very quickly say I could just see you know,

I can see myself in my neighborhood. There's been a time or two that I rushed out my door, like I am going to take care of this whoa high crazy town. I'm I'm sorry. I was just coming out to get the mail. I'm gonna go back in my Yeah. Well, you know, but it's always there's always a possibility it was the neighbors. I think I don't think we should totally discount that. Nope. Yeah, Well, if you have theories on this, you are more than welcome to share them

with us. The place that you cannot share them is our website, but you can check out our research about this episode on our website. You can obviously listen to any this episode or any of our past episodes there as well. Um, on the website, you will see the links on the right hand side for merch or for supporting the show. All of that is right there. So merch is gonna be shirts or coffee mugs or phone cases. We've added some new stuff there as I think we're

going to add. No, no, we are not going to add big dolls. We're not going to be doing that. Um. If you want to support the show, there is those options which are like I said, there is the merchandise. There is going to be PayPal. So if you'd like to do a one time donation to the show, you are more than welcome to do it there. Or if you'd like to do a recurring donation to the show or support of the show, that would be done through Patreon.

The address for that is patreon dot com slash thinking sideways, where you can pledge a certain amount per episode, so be aware though it is per episode. So if you want to do a buck, that's a buck every episode. So if you want to do a Hunter bucks, that would be a Hunter bucks in episodes. And by the way, to everybody who has been giving us support, we so appreciate that you have no idea how much easier. That makes things for us. Uh. The other way that you

could support the show is by rating the show. If you're on iTunes, do go ahead and take the time to leave a comment and a rating. Yeah. If you've got an issue or a concern with something that we've said, or you think that we're uh inferring. Wait, I can't say infer Uh it's something that we're saying, then go ahead and get ahold of us through some other means, because we can't have a conversation via comments. Um. But whatever streaming service you use, because we're also on streaming services,

you're more than welcome to subscribe there. And if those have a comment or a rate system, a review system, use that. We totally appreciate that. I know, God it's Google Play added that yet I don't know. We're on everybody at this point, Google Play, Stitcher, whoever. Um, we are on social media, so we are on Facebook, where we've got the Facebook page and the Facebook group. We are on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways, where Devin tweets lots of strange pictures that she has put filters

on to totally mask her appearance. So if you want to know not what Devon looks like. Please check that out if you want to know what Devon looks like as a pineapple or a wolf. Yeah that's a good Yeah, Yeah, that's exactly what you're gonna get there. We have a subreddit, so if you are a Reddit user, there's a subreddit Thinking Sideways. And the last, but not least, the most popular method of getting ahold of us to have an actual conversation would be email. We do the email email

is the Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Feel free to send in feedback, comments, story suggestions, general praise or rage. Be aware. We will respond to all emails, but it doesn't eventually. Can sometimes take days. You'd be amazed how many, how quickly they pile up. So we are not ignoring you. If it takes a couple of days. We actually feel bad I have. I'm like, oh god, it's still there. I'm freaking out. It's stressing me out, man. So we will write you back and tell you tell

us how much you love us. Yeah, did I forget anything? Ah you did, but I don't know what I forgot it too. Okay, Well, I I appreciate everybody staying with us through this long and kind of haphazard, haphazard drawn out. It's just it's been a big episode and uh, we appreciate all of that and dealing with every freaking pun we've made. So it was hey, guys, just I want to point out was mostly all you guys making the bad jokes. Okay, well we're gonna zip this one up.

And yeah, the mystery is not is not even is. The mystery is why didn't somebody kill them sooner? Frankly, anyway, that sounds a little pushing phraseology and phraseology. Phraseology, Yeah, it's just like ameology.