Thinking Sideways: Who killed Willie MacRae?

of Thinking Sideways. I am your host Joe, joined as always by and Steve and Yes, and this week we have a horse co host. Yeah, Devn Devon's Devon's had a little problem with your voice, but bear with us. It still sounds good. You're I can understand you, So I think we'll be all right. My cousin told my new husband that this is actually my real voice that I've been hiding from him for the last four years. I love this theory. Well, you know, actually there's worse news.

I mean, it could be like, oh, I never told you actually have a really hypits voice. It's really annoying. It's actually pretty annoying. So yeah, okay, let's get back to back to that. But too bad about the voice. But next week it'll be better, I'm sure. Uh. So, we got a mystery to talk about this week, so let's get right into it. Eh. Yes, we're gonna talk

about the mysterious death of William McCray. That's William McCray, properly known as Willia McCray, Scottish lawyer and politician, who died in a strange auto accident in Because this is strange because when the smoke it cleared from the accident, uh, which wouldn't have been failed to him, and also turned out he had been shot in the head, which is not normally what happens when you wreck a car. No,

not tally Yeah, game, it's kind of a surprise. Before we go any further, though, I want to give a shout out to our listener Michael, who suggested this story way back in So Hey, Michael, assume you're Scottish, So yeah, tell all your Scottish friends and an honor of our all of our Scottish listeners, I'm going to do the rest of this episode in Scottish brogue. Well that's going to destroy our ratings. Okay, okay, never mind, let's skip

the brogue, so let's talk about Willie. Yeah, now, I know, I'm sorry, and I another another apology to our Scottish listeners. But I wonder I hear about scotsman named Willie. There's only one Willie. I think of groundskeeper, groundskeeper Willie. I knew that's where you're gonna go, I know. But yeah, anyway, back we haven't been doing this for five years or something, So back to William mccraig. Willie was born in nineteen three in Scotland. Of course, I served in World War

Two in France and then also in India. Uh, just stant military intelligence. Eventually went back to civilian life and became a lawyer. Went on to start his own law firm, Levi and McCrae in Glasgow, Scotland. Uh well. They also joined the Scottish National Party. He was indeed an intense Scottish nationalist. He was big into that whole thing. He began to rise in the ranks in the SNP and

he rose to the rank of vice chairman in the party. Uh. He also stood for elections several times, but never actually won office. It seemed like every time he went he ran it was a wider and wider margin from him being able to take the seat. If I remember the numbers correctly, like he was. They really liked him at first, and then he just kept running in his numbers just kept going down, like Paul Rand. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure you mean Rand. Paul Rand, Paul Yeah, you know what,

people knowing both ways, he doesn't matter. Uh yeah. Well. The funny thing is is I I never met the guy or anything like that, but I've seen video of him speaking. Actually he the guy was a good public speaker. I mean I thought it was anyway. You know, sometimes what happens is somebody's a good public speaker and so

people are really taking with them. At first, I don't like their ideas, and then they start to actually listen to their ideas and see how effective they are, and maybe question is this person actually going to be effective? Maybe they haven't been proving themselves maybe there yeah, so maybe, you know, at first he was just one charisma, and the next it was kind of like every single time there they said, he lesn't less effective. This is just maybe it's not a good idea, or maybe he just

had a really really really bad run of luck. And every time he just had a better, more charismatic opponent. And maybe I've got a bad run of luck there, I don't know. But but anyway, that didn't totally hold Willie back. He didn't get an MP position or anything else, but he was still pretty influential I think in the SNP and Scottish politics until the faithfully being a Friday, April five, when William mccraig left his house in Glasgow to drive to his cottage and art Dell, which is

about a hundred ten miles northwest of Glasgow. Hundred seventy five kilometers and that's crow miles road miles road miles would be nearly twice said, because there's no direct highway that goes to our what is that in cow miles? Yeah, cow and crow miles, cow miles. It's like, I don't know, hundred eighty six thousand, I think, but yeah, you can find our Del. It's it's just I guess I would have called that kilometers. Oh, I like that kilometers, Okay, So nixing that idea. Our Del is like kind of

towards the west coast of Scotland. It's not a it's on a lock. You know actually, which is actually kind of a fjord and which actually connects to the sea, so you can almost call it a sea coast sort of town. But now we shouldn't he took Reportedly, when he left, he took his briefcase and a bottle of whiskey with him, and it was what it was in the afternoon, right, it was okay, Yeah, So it was Friday time to go away for the weekend. He headed off in his maroon Volvo four and sometime that night,

probably around ten pm. It's hard it's not absolutely for sure, but he was driving north on the eighties seven road about twenty four curl miles from his destination Koslos, exactly. Uh. And if Carl left the road for some reason, nobody knows exactly sure why. But it looks like it rolled a few times, because I've seen I've seen a few photos of the car. It looks pretty beat up. It's banged up. Yeah. Uh. It wound up about ninety ft

from the road, pointed uphill. This is so it went off down a sort of down out, gently sloping hill and was pointed uphill towards the road where it came to rest. It was straddling a burn, which is Scottish for a very small stream. Uh. And this one was really small, like kind of a regular really And if you want to see the crash site the court as are, write this down if anybody cares. Fifty seven point one one six three one four by minus four point nine

two zero eight one. That's on the eighties seven Highway, about two and a half miles south of the intersection with seven Road. Wow, that string of numbers is going to be easy to remember, everybody who listens in the car. I know exactly how many car wreckts are we gonna cause, yeah, no, careful, you can always go back and look this up again, you know. But I actually also warn you. This is where there's a monument to Willie. There's a kind of a cairn that is to some of his fans built

for him there by the side of the road. Uh. And that's believed by most everybody to be the crash site. But there's a few people who say the crash site was actually about a mile south at there, so just before one, because there's there, yeah there is, But can I just ask real quick, Yeah, it is him being on that road at ten PM was about when he

would have. Yeah, because the road, the trip from Glasgow court the Google anyway, the trip from Glasgow to our Dell is about a four hour drive via the eight seven road and everything. And so if he left the six thirty and he was most of the way there, then he should have gotten there no earlier than say nine thirty, and no later than ten. That of course.

That that's you know, depending on It was like three quarters of the way there though, wasn't he Yeah, it was forty miles away and it was only a couple of drinks. Yeah, No, it was a hundred hundred crow miles road miles road miles, more like a couple of hundred yeah, So but yeah, I mean so he probably

stopped for dinner and pea breaks, gasoline, that kind of thing. Uh, maybe he had to take petrol, okay, Uh, you know, maybe he had to take d tours to try to shake off the special branch tails that were following him. Getting ahead of yourself a little bit. But anyway, it was, it was probably no earlier than nine ten, maybe a little later than that. I wanted to make sure that it wasn't like odd that he was out at that time,

Not really no, no, it was yeah. And the next morning a couple of tourists were driving by and they spotted the car. So that was the first discovery. That was the first people who at least reported it. Yeah, they spotted the car and they stopped the husband. They were Their names were Alan Barbara Crowe. They were from Australia. And this is ten o'clock in the morning. I go

right around Daniel. So Alan Crowe walked down to the car, saw that there was a person in it, and he opened the door and then took Willie's pulse, found that he did have a pulse kind of weak, but he was otherwise non responsive. And but then, as it happens, to another car drove by, So they flagged down this other car, which luckily enough was driven by a person named Dorothy Messer, who happened to be a doctor. And

here's another amazing coincidence. There was also a passenger in the car named David Coots, who was a member of the s MP or the same party that will belonged to. Actually they knew each other. Yeah, he had known Willie for years and so when he was kind of shocked and surprised to see Willie sitting behind the wheel of the car that was wrecked, or maybe it wasn't. Was this a coincidence or was he a hit man? You're

way ahead. Yeah, we could just start right now. Yeah, we'll save the accusations for I don't think we should. There's more story to tell, Yeah there is. Yeah. Actually I saw this guy on TV in an interview. He doesn't come off like a mob thug or a hitman at all. Also, it was, you know, twelve hours later. Yeah, there was that too. Yeah, the interview was much later than that. Yeah, years after. So they got down to the car. That's when he David Coupe recognized as Willie.

Willie was in the driver's seat, unconscious. He was not wearing a seatbelt. Uh, and Dr Messer looked him over and guestimated he'd been sitting there for maybe around ten hours. But you know, it's hard to I don't know how she did that. Maybe blood plotting, because he had like a head injury. There was all over I mean it's pooled down his shirt. Yeah, and so I guess that's how she guestimated this. So he's taken to a hospital

in Inverness. From there he was transferred to another hospital, which was the Aberdeen Royal infirm Ring, And they're at Aberdeen right around four in the afternoon they discovered finally that he had a bullet hole in his head, just over his right air. How long does it take to wipe the blood off of somebody's head, for God's sake, you know, I'm not I don't really quite get why it took so long to figure that out. But you know, hey, I think you know you're doing triage for other stuff, right.

Somebody says, well, he has a pulse. You assumed there. You know, if if there was a doctor on the scene as well, you assumed maybe she would have been noticing things. If he has a pulse, clearly he's not brain dead. Well, I would presume that he was brought in in an ambulance, so I would assume that they would have given him once over and said clean it and bandage. Yet would be my presumption, right, But life saving care is different than finding a bullet hole behind

somebody's ear. Listen, I watched e er for years and that's not the way it happens. Well, you know that I know a little more than Yeah, I got one word to say to you guys stat Yeah, clear that Okay, back to you know it might but yeah it should have should they should have found it faster. But also well I would have thought that crazy to me, I guess, I don't know. The guy comes in with a head injury, and I would think the first thing you would do would be like, actually has had to see if he's

got any you know, massive like brain swelling. I'm afraid you were right back to exactly what I guess. I don't know, but anyway, whatever, it's water runder the bridge, right, but the water runder the car, I guess in this case. Yeah, I know when they found a bullet hole, they actually just had there was a bullet in his brain. So while that changes things, it turns out it wasn't an auto accident after all, but the local police apparently didn't get the memo on that. So his car was towed

from the scene at noon the next day. And so I've been Sunday Sunday. Yeah, I believe it was about noon on Sunday to seventh. By the way, can I can I point something out because people will see this when they're reading this on the internet, and it was confusing to me at first, until I figured out what the problem with the reporting was. Is sometimes you will see it reported as he left on Friday and he

wasn't found until Sunday. And it took me forever to figure out that what happened is people were mixing up the date that the car was hauled away as the date that Willie was found. In other words, not twelve hours of him being gone, but thirty six hours. And I was like this, It really took me a long time to feel because I kept reading the different articles and I couldn't understand. And then that's the only way I've determined that the screw happened. Yeah, no, I I

don't think the road is that remote. I don't think it was quite that remote that nobody would have seen him for that long time. So anyway, so they go back to there at the car they're hauling. Yeah, the car has been hauled away, so they didn't see it as a potential crime scene. At first, I thought it was a car accident. This guy had just gone off the road, right, we had not the first time that's happened. And as for the car itself, that was of course

in the police's possession. There were three things that were not in it. The gun that shot Willie, his briefcase which supposedly had with him, and also that bottle of whiskey they supposedly took with him. Those things were not in the car, and they had been found on the

ground and around the car either. So this is this is one of the things that I found really odd about this story that the police, the local police, after they found out that it was a crime scene, at least potentially, they took the car back to where that the wreck was and put it back in the same spot where they found it so they could take pictures of it. Well, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. They should have already taken pictures of it, anyway, I

would have thought. Apparently they didn't. So they put the car back and they searched the area, and this time they found the gun. It was about sixty ft from the car, and it was in the burn, which you remember as a stream, so they and it was kind of below a little little tiny waterfall in the burn, which is maybe why nobody spotted it at first, And it was a forty five caliber Smith and Western revolver which had been fired twice, you know, as in there

were just two bullets missing or cartridge case things. Yeah, yeah, which means that, yeah, it had it have been. All that means is it Obviously it was fired once because he had a bullet in his head, but the other one that was the actual gun. But yeah, yeah, that's true to that too. But but I just you know, sometimes it seems like people say I'd been fired twice. But like we've talked about this before, you don't get your you don't know that, and I don't get your

gun all the way full. Yeah, well it had it had empty it had entry empty brass in it shoot empty brass. Yeah, and so he forgot it. Yeah. Well, well, I think Joe's idea is right though, is that he may have shot it once at some point and left that empty shot that if you round in there, Yeah, I mean, because you don't always just open it up and replace him. It's not like the Deo game, where as soon as you can you reload. Yeah, well you

think it would. But think about it, is is this this gun and by the way, imagined it was a forty five caliber Smith and Weston turns. That's what's on Wikipedia and in some other places too. It turns out that's not what it was. It seems like it would have been a pretty noticeable bullet hole. You would think that somebody would have noticed that big old bullet hole. Lot. That would have done a hell of a lot of damage,

like missing skull damage. Yeah, like like you know, the other side of the skull blasted away the Yeah, the bullet would probably not be rattling around in his skull. Yeah, probably gone out to the other side. Yeah. The one that they found was actually a very old Smith and Weston It's called the first issue or excuse me, the first model revolver and the d It was called that because it was the very first gun that Smith and Wesson ever made. It was made around the time of

the American Civil War, so it's old, very old antique gun. Uh. And it was a single action revolver, seven shots chambered in twenty two short, which is about the most anemic round you can think of. Tiny, little, very anemic, little small round. Sorry you said it. On a lot of sources it says it's forty five, but you know it's

something else. How do you know that? Well, well, number one there was there was actually what I thought was a fairly comprehensive article in one of the Scottish papers about it, and they actually had a picture of the revolver and so and so. And I'm not an expert on smith and lesson antique revolvers by any means, but

I did a little googling on, you know, antiques. I found a website where all these things were up for auction and there were quite a few of those old first model ones out there, and I compared the photos very carefully, and you know, they looked absolutely identical. They were, and I did a little research. It was indeed, the first model was a seven shot revolver, just like this this thing, and the story was and then beyond that story, the official inquiry was also was also quoted in a

few places too, was conduct two. They didn't see what the model was, but well, but they call it a They don't call it a twenty two. They call it a point to toot to. Yeah, I was gonna say, are also aren't there different namings for the size of calibers and different countries that inaccurate Some of them can be. Depends Yeah, it depends on them. But I think because of the age of this gun, it was just it was a pretty well established it's just that we call

it a twenty two. They call it a point to too. But if you buy a box of twenty two caliber here, it's got the the decimal point is there? Yeah, yeah, okay, yesterday, So I just wanted to clarify. Yeah, and you do, and we do indeed know that it was actually much smaller. It wasn't much smaller around yeah and uh, and this is why this would explain I think the the the empty cartridge case thing that was in there, because this

was a lot of the really old single actions. What they didn't have a safety notch or anything in the hammer, and so when the gun was fully loaded, your hammer was resting on the primer of a of a hot round. And so if you drop the gun or something just fell on you on your gonna whack the hammer, it could go off and maybe shoot you in the leg. It was maybe a safety precaution that you'd have one

just empty shell case. You'd either leave it. You would either leave that whole thing empty, or he'd put a piece of brass casing in there. Uh. And so that's probably what it did, is you just put an empty shell casing in there to put his hammer down. That's what I think, But I'm not totally sure when Pierre supposition, but I would not. I would not personally hear that gun with the hammer down on a live round myself. So that was apparently I don't know where he got

that from. It might have just been in the family for years, who knows, but he he apparently Pardoner friends had had that gun for a long time, and some people said he had started carrying it for personal protection and it was his gun. Apparently was his gun. Yeah, but it wasn't registered. I mean, that's the thing about Europe is, like, you know, it's supposedly a gun free area, but it just seems like a lot of people have these old guns just lying around. Yeah, you know what

I mean. I'm trying to remember when the big push to get guns out of the British aisles were and I believe it was after this, but well I believe it was after this, but but it was right around the same time. Like I mean, it didn't the entire country did not go gunless right away. It took quite a few years for that to take effect. Yeah, No, I mean, I mean the big push to really get rid of every single gun took place after this. That was after the big dumb Blaine master, right, So it's

not it's not crazy that he had a gun. Oh no, not like if it was today and what was the last prime minister is David Blaine? Was that his name? Cameron? Thank you, David Cameron. I am good with names today. The dumb magician guy. See the same thing to me any politics and magicians. But but it would be it's not as crazy as suddenly saying oh he had one. I was just I was just wanting to make sure that it was his gun, yeah, that it wasn't somebody

else's guns. So let's see, yeah, let's see. So something else they found at the scene of the accident. They found a small pile of torn up papers. These were found by David Coutes, remember him. That was on the day they came across the wreck. Then that was between the road and the car, about twenty five ft away from the car towards the road, and he said that it looked like Willie's wristwatch was also on this pile. So it's kind of a neat pile of torn up

papers with the wristwatch, which is which is a lot. Uh, and so I don't know how exactly they got there, if they if they fell from the car during the rack, or if you know Willie's murderers, you know, put that stuff there. And I really don't know if Willie was murdered. That is of course, after that, the inquiry and to Willie mccraige's death was kind of minimal. It was just assumed that it was suicide because after they found the bullet in his brain, they tried to and it was

figure out what to do. He died shortly thereafter. Honestly, yeah, I forgot, Yeah you didn't say I'm sorry. Yeah, I looked that. Yeah. He he was in a coma. His life support was turned off on Sunday, April seven, and he died. And as yeah, I mean obviously he sustained a lot of brain damage and swelling and all the bad things that come of that. Yeah, and that's you know, one of those things like if you get if you get medical attention pretty quickly after that happens, you have

a good chance. Survived Sitting there for twelve hours not helpful. Yeah, I mean I lost a lot of blood in your brain needs blood to survive. It turns out. Yeah, kind of funny the way that. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point too. It was rule to suicide because it seems so open and shut. But this case lives on in Scotland. I mean even even today, they're still I mean there's a Kickstarter campaign out there right now by h a

guy who wants to write a book about this. He's doing a little fundraising just to raise the fund so you can write this book about it. There have been songs written about it, and TV specials about it, all, tons of tons of newspaper articles, lots of conspiracizing. It's kind of like almost like Scotland's JFK conspiracy theory, although not not as huge as JFK obviously, but it's still to a lot of people are kind of a big story.

A lot of suspicions out there. Uh. And in fact, in about two years after the death, when are You and rose to be President of the SNP, she actually knew Willie herself. At the request of many in the party, she launched her own investigation into Willie's death and her conclusion was that she couldn't conclude anything. She said. The Crown Office actually refused to share most of their files

with her. She said she was basically stone walled, and in the end, she just couldn't say for sure what happened. She didn't accuse anybody of murder, but she just said she couldn't definitively say that Willie really did commit suicide because she just didn't have the evidence, and the reluctance, of course of the government to share their information whatever they had and naturally aroused a lot of suspicions. I mean, yeah, well, yeah,

the cops. The cops defended themselves because they put the car back and then they said, oh, yeah, we found it this far away from the car, because we're pretty sure. Hey, Tommy, is this where the cars all pretty sure it's where it was. I mean, that just opens up a whole bag of worms. I was just gonna say, you know, reluctant to share information sometimes just means that they did not do a good job of collecting information, that they

just didn't have anything to share. Well, it might have been well, and we'll get into this a little bit later too, but it does appear that Willie was involved with, you know, the nationalist cause, and he's involved in a lot of stuff. Yeah, he was, and so he probably was under at least a small degree of surveillance, and they probably had a file on him, just like you know, three of us have FBI files on us. Probably his

files probably not nearly as large as ours, though probably not. Uh, And so it might have been that they just didn't want to They didn't want to open up you know, m I five files or special branch files you know, to the SNP. And so that might have been the whole reason, not that there was any skill duggreen. Uh. Another sort of suspicions when we're talking about why people were suspicious is where the gun was found. It was found sixty feet from the car, which is a little lot,

you've got to admit. And it didn't have any fingerprints on it that I mentioned that, Yeah, But of course, as I said, the police say they returned the car to the scene, and this came out in an article. I think, again, this is still in the news, there's still new stuff coming out, and it turns out that this this this article in it was pretty fairly carefully documented. They said that the police put it back, but they don't believe they got it back in the exact precise spot.

Where it was before the car the gun or something. No, no, no, not a moble there and something something. They said it was off by a mob But in this case they brought it back to the same spot. But they were just op by four fifty or sixty feet. Yeah, and uh and so the gun they did not find about yeah, nineteen and so when they actually put the they put the car back, they took lots of photographs. Now they was treating as the crun scenes, so they actually searched

the surrounding area pretty thoroughly too. That's when they found the gun in the stream. Probably actually just fell out the driver's side window into the burn and sat there and detected. You know, it wasn't spotted because it was underwater. Says that it couldn't have been underneath the car where it originally set. Well, he didn't say definitively, there's absolutely no way. He said, Wow, that just seems really unlikely. That's kind of Morris toned. Well, he was there, he

was standing next to it, he was looking down. There was the whole policeman lost his hat thing. I said that, yeah, that the police was pulling his body out of the car and his hat fell off into the burn and it's been over and picked up the hat and gave it back to the cop and apparently the hat fell right about where the gun should have been, right, which makes it kind of questionable if if it really was in the spot they say it was. There's all kinds,

but it's it's moving. The car just screwed the whole thing up. So I don't want to go too far down there, yeah, but I'll just you know, I feel like I need to remind people that you the crash you described as the car flipped over a number of times, right, so things could have actually been flown out, and they could have been flown out. So that's true too. You know if assuming that the gun was fired or whatever before the car can to rest, could have gone flying

much further. That's the tricky part is like you know, when it was a gun fired and it was actually one of the policeman that was involved in this, uh said years later that you know, it appears that he actually shot himself while driving down the road and then one off the road, and that would explain what happened, because you know, they rolled and fell it out. But that sounds like a theory that sounds like a theory. I'm not so sure about him shooting self while driving,

but maybe I don't know. So that's that's all the suspicions. Have I left anything you guys can think of? No, I think you've pretty much hit all of it all right, So now it's time for us to get into hypotheses. Oh, theories? Okay, nobody calls it hypotheses. Are you kidding? I know who would do science? Yeah? This is uh the Internet? Yeah, better than the science. Before we before we get into all of our theories or hypotheses, let's take a quick break.

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essentially three theories. So let's start with the first. That it was an accident, as I as already mentioned as old smith and western. It could have been discharged by a blow on the hammer. So we don't know where he was carrying it. I assume probably like maybe the breast pocket of his coat or something like that, if he was carrying it for personal defence, so I could see that, Yeah, if he's yeah, sitting in the car,

it doesn't want to have in his pants pocket. It's hard to get too quickly, right, So he runs off the road. The guns flies out of his pocket, his jacket pocket during the accidents somehow, you know, discharges. It does seem a little unlikely, doesn't it. Yeah, well, that

is an amazing series of events. And plus, as I said to, it would be as said to, I have strong reason to think that Willy would have followed what was really standard protocol for those old guys and carried it with a hammer down on an empty on an empty cart, which means that it would have flown rotated the chamberlone cock the hammer, and then that just I'm not really buying that. So okay, we can dismiss that kind of quickly. I think, okay, let's go to our

next one. This one is a little more possible. I think, uh, suicide. Remember, so you know a lot of people that said the government says suicide, A lot of people think murder. But when you're thinking suicide, you know that little revolver has really would have been a very unlikely assassin's tool. I think it was. I said very like I said, very old chamber in twenty two short which is a very anemic little round. I mean, that's more anemic than twenty

two long rifles. Is not exactly a great suicide round, although it we'll kill somebody. Yeah, I mean, as far as the assertion that it's not a very good murder tool, it's a good murder tool if you know that that person has one. That's a good point. And people just assume that they used it on themselves. Yeah, that that that does make a little sense in that regard, And it's just like, well, you know, it'll probably will kill them with one round, and if we don't, well we'll

do it with too, of course. Yeah, And obviously they succeeded with one round because only one was found in his head. But but the serious suicide, Yeah, suicide. But but again and that's why I was taking suicide because it was on with his own gun and you know, and which was, by the way, not a great murder tool. So what he did he have a history? I mean for the suicide theory and presuming that there's a history of depression or attempts at suicide or something like that,

do we do We haven't anything like that. I don't know of any attempts at suicide. He did have a history of depression and he was he was a very heavy drinker also, so maybe he was self medicating for the depression. And that doesn't help. Does we help things? Yeah? Uh? He had asked some professional and personal setbacks. He got booted in one from the law firm that he had found. To remember, I mentioned Levia mccraig. He was actually removed.

His name stayed on the sign and everything, but essentially he was not allowed to serve duty and the duties anymore. And I think that mostly was because of his drinking. But he had also started another practice. He had tried to start to get another practice going practice I understood was was he was trying to get it off the ground,

but it had clients. Yeah, apparently it was. It was working, but but still, you know, it's, um, I don't know, it's it's got to be considered kind of a blow to at least your ego to get sort of kicked out of your own law firm that you founded. Did they did they just shut him out or did they buy him out? Because sometimes places will do that when they're like, listen, you are unfit, but we're gonna keep your name and we're gonna pay you to go away.

It's not an uncommon practice in this case, you know, I think I don't think he was totally removed from it. I think that if you're if you're basically a partner, were the founding members, then I assume we still get a cut of everybody else's fee. So that's what I'm getting at. But yeah, I didn't lose that completely. They didn't totally rip him off. They said, basically, you're not representing our firm anymore because whatever reason may because you're

always hungover. We don't really, we don't. We don't know exactly the reasons why there was at this break. But anyway back to his life. It says boozing was kind of ruining his life. As far as I know, no toxicology report was done in his body, so we don't know if he actually was drunk when his car went off the road or not. Guessing, you know, I'm guessing he probably was at least drinking, because you know, he was kind of a big booze hound. Not no judgment on my part, you know me too, I mean a

lot of us are. But that's another aspect where the whole investigation fell short in so many ways, and it really would have been better if they did a more thorough and maybe all these questions would have been answered a little a little better and there wouldn't be all

the speculation so that they didn't do with toxicology. So so what you're getting at here is that there's that three hour drive, He's got a bottle of whiskey with him, he drinks that bottle of whiskey over the course of three hours and then presumably chucks it out the window, and I'm point to dispose of the bottle, and then that's why it's not at the accident scene. That's one possibility.

With one possibility another possibility is that if the car went off the road and if Willie came out of it, okay, you know, in other words, I'm probably a little banged up. But if he if he walks, can walk away from it, and he's been drinking. And Willie, by the way, I didn't mention this, had already had two arrests for drunk driving. And so if I think they call it drink driving in the UK, well I'm not sure what they call this.

Drink drinking, drink driving. Okay, whatever it is, I don't know why it's drinking and drinking, but yeah, whatever that, Yeah, he could have but he could have gotten to jail for it. Being a lawyer, probably would have lost his law license. I know here in America you will if you get caught, if you get arrested for something like a felony and your a lawyer or like for me for my job, I would lose my license. Also a lot of people will in professional jobs like that. So

what do you do. You know, you've been boozing, you've got a half full bottle of whisk in your car. You do the natural thing. You get out of the car, you know, walk a little distance away and fling the bottle as far as you can, right, And so that might be another reason why the bottle was not found in the car. Yeah, But whatever the reason, the bottle was just not in the car. And so Willie is uh car comes to a stop and he realizes he's in a world of hurt drawn having just wrecked his car.

He's in a bit of trouble. If the if the police come along and see he's wrecked his car and he's got all this booze on his breath, could this be enough to make him want to commit suicide? Well, I don't know. Maybe I did just torch the car, kidding, just kidding, Hi, burn the evidence of kidding. Yeah, I don't know. I I personally, if it had been me,

what I would have done. It's just like, you know, if I had been drunk, like you know, I would have just assuming I could walk and everything like that, I would leave the car and go hide in the bushes. Yeah. And that's a hero, that's what That's what a true superhero does. Heusually it goes and hides. But anyway, yeah, but but but you know, on the other other hand, and this is this is really out there speculation. What

if Willie. What if Willie had rolled a couple of times and he's not dead by any means, He's not even unconscious, but he's he's just just sustained a spinal injury and realizes, Wow, hey, I can't move my legs. This really sucks. My life is over a bang shoot myself. And that speculate you would think they would have caught a spinal injury. Yeah, I think given how how on though this investigation was, I could actually conceivably imagine the

missing something. The reason that I doubt that is that that's one of the first things they'll check for in an ambulance, Like so, as we've been sitting here thinking about it, if his gunshot was still bleeding when they arrived, really, they're just going to cover the You're just going to

cover the wound. And you guys well or the doctor on site or whoever you know person, and you guys are sure have heard the pack don't peak thing where if you've got uh wound that's bleeding in the field, you just keep packing, you know, as it's bleeding through something, you just keep packing and packing packing, And so that could explain why they didn't really find the bullet hole until he got to the final hospital, because at that point they're thinking, okay, it's time to pull this away

and investige at the wound and see and a little and because they knew if they're going to keep transferring him, you just keep hacking pack backing. But one of the first things that they'll do is you'll check for spinal injuries, because that's one of the biggest ones. Was that, well, okay, so you have to check for today, I get it, but was in the early eighties? Was that standard practice? Do you know? Off top of your head? I believe so.

Everybody for as long as I know, especially in the modern era, people have known that a spine or back injury is one of the most fatal things. So you'll check for a spine injury before you move somebody, because if you move somebody with a spine injury, you know, unless the cars on fire or something, you will make it way worse. So, oh, you know, Actually, she's right, because I remember the thing when I was a kid, somebody would be in a car accident, immediately put the

big foam neck brace on, no matter what. The first rule of first age, and especially in things like falls or car rex or anything like that is not to touch them, don't move the body, don't love, don't move the but stabilized the head exactly. But okay, so I probably didn't wake up and and found himself find himself paralyzed. I mean, unlikely, but but it's entirely possible though that

if we ignore the paralyzed theory. If what you're hypothesizing here is Joe is in your theory is that he realizes that he is screwed up, it isn't It is possible that Willie decided to end it all and he shoots himself in the head. And we had this conversation during the isidor Fink episode. It may not have that shot,

may not have immediately incapacitated him. He may have been super drunk at that point because of impeded brain function, and it's still ambiliatory and goes, I gotta, I gotta get rid of this gun because oh, they're going to figure it out. And he could have chucked it and then wandered back to the car, are got into the car, shut the door, and then went down. I mean, we had that conversation about the guy who wandered around for an hour with a bullet in his head saying that's it.

But it is, it's not inconceivable. Yeah it could have been. I mean, and the thing about head wounds and bullet wounds and the head and all that stuff is that is that it's really unpredictable. It's entirely it's not. It wouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised at all if somebody got shot in head with one of short and dropped totally dead. I also wouldn't be surprised to see somebody get shot in the head with a forty five and actually live on for a while and be able to actually gonna

walk around a little bit. I mean, all those things have all happened. Um, And so so is there no suicide theory that he could have shot himself while driving and that caused the accident, Well, yeah, no, that that's that.

There's there was a policeman who actually said that he believed that he had shot himself while driving, and whether that was an accident or he deliberately did that, you know, And this is the thought that I that's occurred to me is that if Will had planned his suicide and wanted to make it and wanted to make it look kind of suspicious because this is this is something I sort of I don't really I never knew Willie obviously,

but he struck me. Strikes me as a that's kind of theatrical person, a little bit, a little bit melodramatic, you know what I mean. If you listen to speak, I can see that. Yeah, but you liked this theory a lot, and I think he uses this a lot. Everybody wants to leave behind a mystery. According to you, most people probably it's not what happened, but you know, it's conceivable. It's conceivable that that that is what he wanted to do, or he just shot himself on the

head and wrecked the car and he was chunk. He was like, all right, shumps off the head, you know, gun goes flying out the window as the car is spinning down the hill and it lands in water, which might explain why there are no fingerprints on it, because it's that and water for a couple of days. Yeah,

it could have been. It could have been. He was like driving out of the road and he spotted these heads behind him that he had been following him for hours, and he assumed that that was special branch following, and so he gets out the gun. He's gonna, I'm gonna put a shot across their bout, you know, something like that, and the cock said, and then he goes over a bump or something like that, and the gun goes off

and Bluie. This is Leslie Nielsen movie. Okay, good point. Yeah, it's our next theory here, because I think this is this is a suicide thing. That's the suici So it's it's like it seems possible. I don't know. Let's go into our next theory and then we'll go back to suicide in the end here murder. But you know, somebody wanted to whack Willie. So who would have wanted to do that? I don't know. There are some potential ones out there according this. That's some of the people out

there to talk about this mystery. Number one. They were there was a nuclear power industry and in the British government in general is relates to nuclear power. Also there was drug smuggling. Ull, let's let's start with let's start with the nuclear power. This is your number one Willie Whacker. Yeah, why I what is behind this? Because people are gonna want to know that. People want to know people hate big nuclear, Yeah they do. They hate big nuke um

and he was. You know, the thing about Willie is he was known as an anti nuclear activist and campaigner. I'm not so sure that he really was. I mean, I'm not so sure that he hated nuclear power and all that stuff and nuclear weapons or he just didn't want that stuff on Scottish soil. That seemed to be his primary motivation. I think was just Scottish nationalism. So there was a Yeah, there was a big, a big

move by the UK Atomic Energy Authority. They wanted to store nuclear waste in the Irishire Hills of Scotland and Willie played a key role of putting a stop to that and he became a hero at that point to the anti nuclear movement. He was expected to oppose an expansion of the Dune Ray nuclear facility that's on the north coast of Scotland. It was a big experimental thing.

They had like a breeder reactor, a couple of experimental submarine reactors going there and apparently it did produce some electricity and it was they were planned and expanding the facility, adding a reactor or two, and so they were they were essentially gonna start talking about in like nineteen six. Willy was expected to oppose, though the theory goes that well, the nuclear industry wanted him out of the way so

they could continue with their plans. You know, of course, as for done right that the big nuclear facility, the reactors, they were actually shut down a new commission in so I'm not so sure that they actually ever did the proposed expansion. I did a little research trying to find out, and I didn't hear anything else about it, so it maybe got dropped, and then eventually they decided to for this reason or that whatever, it's bad publicity, we'll just

shut the reactors down and decommission the whole thing. But the nuclear angle, I think is the biggest thing out there, and the Willy was murdered theories, there's something. There's some other theories out there, but this is the big one

as far as those people are concerned. One of Willie's activist allies, this guy apparently lived up in the R delve area where his cottage was, and he was a big part of the anti nuke, especially the anti nuclear dumping movements up there, was supposed to meet with him

the weekend of his death. According to this person whose name last name I never found out, he posted a long thing on this website called Electric Scotland, signed his name John but no last name, said that Willie had a bombshell in his briefcase, not literally, of course, but

you know, uh, and here's a quote from him. He had incontrovertible evidence from a source within the mod that's Ministry of Defense that plans were in place to build an underwater burial casement offshore at apple Cross to store all of the United Kingdom's nuclear waste. Well, it was beside himself and was due to publicize his findings that weekend. These another Scottish political issues of these days were in

his briefcase, never out of his sight. Because of a series of unselved break insto his office in Buchanan Street in Glasgow. He trusted no one but his closest politically active associates unquote. Yeah, and the briefcase, of course, was never found. But on the other hand, I don't I'm not a hundred percent sure that was in the car to begin with. It might have been, Yeah, I guess I didn't even think to question this, But how is it that we know that he took his briefcase in

the bottle of whiskey with him. I assumed somebody in Glasgow at his house, you know, in the car. Yeah, I've seen that. What happened to his wife or you know, his housekeeper or somebody saw him leave, but with the briefcase of the bottle of whiskey. Um, but yeah, that's but I don't know who it was. But apparently that's what That's what I hear everywhere. So this guy says that. I mean, basically, this guy is saying that somebody murdered him and he had the he had the nuclear industry, right,

and so they made him dead. Yeah, he had the goods, so they killed him. Yeah. And as for this thing about Willie's bombshell, his friend Mary Johnston I said an interview on Scottish TV that he had told her a few days before his death that quote, he now got something they wouldn't be able to riggle out of. You don't think Mary Johnson could be John could john Maybe that's really that Actually that's kind of on the nose. May have just been using her last name. I like that.

I'm saying, yeah, maybe, yeah, that's possible be not actual corroberation. It could be one person being one person under multiple ideas. That's possible because you know the internet. Yeah, and it could be yeah, and it could be too and not to dennigrade Willie. It could be that Willie was just kind of b essing people too and saying, oh my god. It could have been a big talker that just made claims to get people all excited and love him more,

which could have been why he wasn't getting elected. Yeah, yeah, to talk no falter yea, yeah, Okay, So who's the next Willie Whacker? Our next Willie Whacker? Joe wrote it, Yeah, so who's our next one? Well, this, this story is a more recent addition to the pantheon of theories out there. This is the pedophile which is apparently there was a mysterious ring of pedophiles in Westminster and then in the

British government and associated with the government. Of course, we know there was some of those in the BBC, etcetera. We've heard about those more recently. According to an article in the Scottish Sunday Express, Willie had had somehow gotten evidence of a pedophile ring and there was indeed a dossier on all the pedophiles that had been associated with the government, which was lasting the possession of the Home Secretary,

who was Leon Britain at the time. In the Sunday Express, claim was made in um and so that dossier apparently was assembled by another an MP named George Dickens. He actually put the whole thing together, gave it to the Home Secretary and apparently it just sort of went down the memory holes. Never I have a real problem with this. And listen, I understand that pedophiles exist and that people cover things up, and it is very terrible, and we've seen a lot of things uncovered in recent history of

people doing really bad things. But the quote unquote high powered pedophile ring, if you look around, that's in the U. S. Government, that is in Hollywood, that is in the Kremlin. Like you see this claim of a high powered elite ring of pedophiles who are all working together. It's it's kind of that little I think gets put on every story to see if it fits well. Yeah, the problem I have with the whole idea of pedophile rings, especially in the pre Internet days as well, how do these guys

find each other? Why would anybody you know cooperate with other pedophiles, because you know that only puts you in more danger, you know, I mean, what if you're going to be a pedophile, just prowl on your own and don't you know, I don't really. It's like, this is why we never hear about the serial killer gang, because they don't work with other people, because the it's much more dangerous. Wasn't that Manson's family? No, No, they were a bunch of misguided people. That was kind of more

of a cult thing. Are they not serial killers? Well in a sense, but completely different thing. It's a completely different thing. I think when you're no, I think, I think, I mean, you know, but as yeah, no, As I was saying, this original doscy I mentioned was compiled by a member of parliament. As I said, George Dickens, Uh, Dickens himself was not murdered. He died in age sixty four. And you would think if the pedophile ring had wanted to murder anybody, it would have been George Dickens and

not Willie. Yeah. And also it would have been interested in him when he was younger than older. So yeah, that's that's a good point too. Yeah. And also according to with you Scottish registers that I've seen out there that pedophile story was, it's just a new thing that's been tacked on. I figured, yeah, I figured if you're on reading they said, on every story as if it fits. Yeah. So yeah, if you're on Reddit in your Scottish you

know all about this story. I'm sure. Well, let's let's move on to our next possible suspects here, which is drug smugglers. Well, they had an old friend named Michael Strath Aaron who said in an interview there's a there was a special that was done on Scottish I which says, I don't know Scottish Eye is still on TV or not. Yeah, so he appeared on Scottish I and he said that he believed it might have been drug smugglers because apparently the West coast of Scotland is kind of a key

drug root into Britain. And if you don't believe me, take a look at a map and let's see what I'm talking about. You know what I'm saying, there's there, I know, that's all this powdery white stuff. Yeah, especially yeah, the cocaine seems more popular at the north end of the world. But then rather that's the equator. I don't get it, but but no, I mean there's so much coastline and it was so so many fiords and all

that stuff, you know, and so I could see that. Uh, And of course that's where his vacation home was, was towards the west coast of Scotland. And apparently he'd uh been involved in it, or at least he he has some constituents. I think that we're really concerned. Apparently he sort of got into the mix about the whole thing. I don't know exactly what the story is there. And a local man named Alan McClean is local and Dorney, which is next to our Della, which is where Willie's

vacation home was. He said he got the impression from talking to Willie that Willie was investigating the local drug smugglers and that he was onto something big. But of course this might get back to what we were talking about a little bit earlier. He was telling other people boasting and you know, b asking people, and Willy really seemed to have the m o of if he was investigating something, it's because he knew how to dig into

documents and pull things in that regard. I don't see him sneakily walking down the street and saying hey chum, hey, well if we're being really honest though, really, the way this could have and most likely did play out is that Alan McLean was talking to Willie at one point and said, hey, you know, you're representative. I'm really concerned about this, and and Willie said, yeah, I'm looking into it, and as like, you know, is the way that politicians

talk to their constituents. Sometimes it's just we'll look into that, ye, fair In fairness to Willy, let's say that, Yeah, Willy might not have been busting excepting the standard political way. Just like absolutely, I'm all over this and I think we're gonna really, we're gonna really take them down hard, you know. And yeah, we forgot about it a meeting exactly because he would scotch whiskey. He had he had to go down and meet his connection at the docks.

The next next suspect, Yeah, our next suspect, the Scottish National Liberation Army or every time you do that, we lose more people every time you do that accent. Oh sorry Scotts. Yeah, the Scottish nationalist movement, at least back on the day included some militaristic elements apparently, and so there was a former member of the s nl A

called Adam Busby who also appeared on TV. I think it was the same Scottish i TV episode of Mary appeared on and various other people did and Michael Strathairn he said that Willy was involved with them, and said mostly in a minor way. Basically he let them use his office and he said Willy did get involved in one bomb plot, which was what they wanted to do was plant two unarmed bombs on the approach to the

Coalport Military base. Now coal Port is these storage still is today these storage and blooding facility for their in the UK's tried nuclear warheads. So those are the ones that getting loaded onto the boomers, the nuclear submarines that carry nuclear missiles. Yeah, so that's where they store. That's where they're meanting out of the missiles and presumably I don't know if the missiles are shipped from there or loaded directly under the subs from there, I'm not sure.

But this idea was that they were going to build two complete bombs, real explosives and everything, but just not set the timers and leave them next to the road to be discovered. Can I be frank? Yeah, this is so stupid. What's that right next to a place where you're running around nuclear warheads. I understand they're not going to set them off, but you're gonna drop two live

bombs just to send a message. It's a very foolhardy plan and I don't I don't see how Willie would have expected that to forward his cause of keeping nuclear materials out of out of his country. Well, the idea was. The idea was that is that they put those things there, and whether they're discovered on their own or they have to phone it in a tell the good way, the bombs are here, go find them. The idea was that they could say, they can say, look, this was super

easy for us to do. Now, how how tough would be for a terrorist to bomb your own convoy letter down with nuclear weapons and cause a huge accident, or maybe gain possession of nuclear warheads, etcetera. That was the idea behind it. It seems like much better ways to go about that. This is And I don't even know if yeah, well no, I don't doubt this guy's word that you know, but it may be that when they came up with the idea, they shoot it it over and decided not to do it. He didn't say they

actually went through with it. When I listened to him, I got and I foolishly did not take the time to verify if this happened. But I just presumed that they actually went forward with this plan, and I mean, that's that's my fault for for buying into it. But regardless of that, what would have been the benefit of killing Willie. Well, that's the problem is that, you know, I mean, as far as I know, he had a good relationship with these guys, unless they they had some

reason to think that he was a snitch. And even then, I'm not sure that they would have killed him. Because these guys and the s n l A guys were somewhat more violent and militaristic than your standards Scottish Nationalist Party or Scottish National Party member was. Obviously, they didn't strike me as incredibly bloodthirsty really, and so I'm not so sure they would have killed will It, which is why I kind of doubt this whole idea, that that anybody in the s l A would have done it.

But his involvement will is involvement with the s l A if if that came to some else's attention, like, for example, Special Branch. And of course there's been there's been hints that you know, from some of the people out there that maybe Special Branch hand of hand in all this. Can you tell people who don't know what special branchs watch? Special Branches? Special Branch is kind of like, I don't know. They're the British version of FBI. Yes,

you know, they're they're very very clear names, we use acronyms. Yeah, yeah, I get it. I get every time of like why don't you just oh no, let's just give it some obtuse snap, okay, whatever. So they think Special Branch Special Branch may have done apparently their friends have really said that he was he told his friends that he was under government surveillance. Of course, again this could be really

exaggerating a little bit too. But on the other hand, if he was involved with these nationalist separatist types, it's not out of it's not really totally out there to say that they would have kept kind of an eye and I'm really There was an snl A member named David Dinsmore who said that he was leaving Willie's office one time and he saw a car that looked like this special branch car type of car that they liked. There were two men in it who were basically watching him.

He got the licensed number, and after that, not long after, he saw another special branch looking car, got that license number, and then he when he went on Scottish Eye and that show I talked about, gave the numbers to them. They traced the numbers and found that they were indeed special branch cars. So it looks like maybe they were keeping either Willie or maybe just David Dinsmore. I'm not

sure who they were keeping an eye on. It sounds like these guys are like not either you know, not very good at their jobs, or they just weren't even trying to be subtle. Sometimes that's much more effective than hiding and saying maybe then look, no, no, I'm just gonna walk up to your office and stand outside the doors.

It's gonna let you know that you that we've got our eye on you, dude, you know, because yeah and so and also Willie told Dinsmore that he'd been followed by a car to his cottage and our delve one when he was driving up one weekend, he he cooked down the license number and gave it to Dinsmore, and Dinsmore he gave it to Scottish Eye. They traced that one that too, was a former Special Branch car. But again that's even more so I'd say they weren't trying

to be subtle or sneaky at all. If you're trying to sneakily follow him all the way to Ourdell, a three four hour drive, you're gonna use several cars, not one car. They used one car, So I think they were just sending William message. Well, they may have been sending William message. Or remember Willie had a tendency to drink too much, and as we all know, when you get booze in your memory gets a little crappy, and they may have said, hey, Willie, we're gonna as sign

a detail to you for the weekend. So that Willie is driving, drinking his body his customary bottle of whiskey on the trip up, getting more and more paranoid and why the hell is this car following me? Oh my god, When they're like, dude, we told you we were gonna follow like you said, yes, I mean, that's not outside the realm of possibility. If he was so slashed half the time that his own firm booty into him out

from practice, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Yeah, maybe, I'm not sure why they would call him up and say, hey, by the way, we're gonna be we're gonna be following you this weekend. Well, there was this weird bomb plot at the nuclear facility, and somebody said that they were going to get you too. I mean, I don't know, man, Yeah, there's a whole bunch of ways that could have gone I suppose, But yeah, whatever the reason that, it looks like they might have had their eye on him. But

you know, it's hard to say. I mean, there were some other people who said that they were kind of involved in the following of Willie, But it's hard to say that that proves much about you know, anybody wanted to murder Willie. Well, so here's one thing we haven't talked about with this there yet. We talked a lot about who, but we haven't talked about like how how they killed him? Yeah, like how would the murder have

gone down? Well, talking a lot about murder, but that's the tricky part is you got to figure out a way to run him off the road, I guess, and then you gotta get his gun away from him and shoot him in the head with it. Yeah, So this is the tricky part. This is one of the reasons that one of the things if you think that he was murdered, the thing that really bugs me the most is the bottle of the booze was not in the car. The bottle of booze should have been in the car

because it was a really nice bottle. In the murderer, That's true. That's when you're that's when you run the liquor store and you got some crap and you bring it back in the car, you know. But yeah, I mean, if I was going to murder somebody in a car rex gonna scenario, I would I would want and assuming the guy was already a drinker and everything right like that, I'd want to have to have empty bottle of whiskey or even an empty bottle of whiskey right there in

the car with him, wouldn't you. It would very quickly lead suspicion to that being the culprit. You're absolutely, absolutely and about. But the bottle wasn't found in the car, and I assumed they searched all around. So the murder theory really is missing a trigger man, it's yeah, I mean where Yeah, so somebody could have shot him at

again though, where's the bottle? I mean, well, of course, and I suppose if if Willie had done like we were talking about and flung the bottle out the window and on the ride, and the killer didn't think to bring a bottle, and maybe that would explain it. I

don't know, yeah, I don't. I just think, you know, there's there's no it's important to talk about some but yeah, like how that would have even happened logistically, it's hard because like it's not there's no good logistics there either, Yeah, doctor Dr Messers said, you know, and obviously the whole thing if you run him off the road again, I don't it doesn't look to me like a really solid forensic job was done in the car anything I didn't

looking at. If you run somebody out the road, generally speaking, you probably gonna least some things in the side of their car. Well though if his car really did roll, yeah, that might have covered up some damn. Yeah, but you got lucky then right, but yeah, and then and then you got to like, you know, stop, walk down there, you know, and take the gun away from and shoot him.

And Dr Messer by the way I said, I did say that she saw no other wounds or marks on his body other than the wound on the right side of his head from and his car was sixty ft off the road. That's actually a pretty big distance for a car to roll and then roll to a stop off of the road. It would have to be at some pretty high speeds to to make that distance. I mean it well, yeah, but if you look at the train like it would be very easy for it to hit some kind of obstacle and lose almost all of

its momentum and come to us stop very quickly. And his car was damaged enough that it looks like it had because I guess, you know, nobody witnessed it, so we don't really know it actually, you know, actually, if it did roll, I think and I've seen I've seen I've seen a photo that out of the wreck. I've seen that same and I gotta say that the Bolbo held up very well. I think the Bolbo, the car company, should get a copy of that picture and use it in their next half. For many, many decades has been

all about our cars are solid and safe. Yeah when there, I mean, Detroit for years was making ticking time bombs that would just rip you apart and light you on fire. And Volvo was like, yeah, no, where our thing is, you're you'll be safe. You won't die with us. Yeah and so and so I'm not surprised at the card. While the exterior was beat up, it looked a little bent. Well that's why I was. Yeah, like the hood was bad. It looked like the frame was bent a little bit.

A lot of other cars. You see it there after they rolled. The roof itself looks a little cock eyed, like it's been pushed, you know, like pushed the one side of the end of bobo. They were it was all straight. That's what maybe I wonder. I had to go back and check to make sure it actually had roll old because I really wasn't sure. Okay, so it did roll. But it seems like the logistics of a murderer just really tough. Yeah, it would be, it would

be very tough to do that. I think there's just as far as the murder thing goes, it's like like Devin was just saying, the logistics seem kind of difficult, um and the practically the motive is not really there the nuclear power industry, as far as I'm concerned, I don't think so Willie is a huge threat. I mean,

Willy wasn't a huge threat. They were if they really wanted to get what they wanted doing, you know, they were gotten it with And I was gonna say, I mean, even if he was a huge threat, it's easier to just be like, listen, he's an alcoholic, like he's not

credit him, instead of murder him like it. Actually, it actually would have been better from their point of view, to get him wasted and arranged for him to run off the road as he did, and and just totally and this is a third driving offense, drunk and just arranged for the police to show up and arrest him. Now, that would have been totally discredited. That would have been a lot better. If you've got to plan this whole

thing out, do that, that would make more sense. But again that then then there's the all the people that are involved in at that, none of which talked which we've talked about this before. These giant conspiracies require many people to coordinate, and yet none of them uttered a word. Yeah there's that too, and so that, you know, that really makes me think that this really was truly a suicide, because again, I just I just can't quite see the

murder as happening. Nobody I don't think had that great of a motive to kill the guy. And even though I don't know to strike me as a suicidal guy either, I didn't know him that well. I will look, I

have to. I'm not fully committed to suicide theory, but there are things that I can see, like the not being Amelia incapacitated by the gunshot, wound in in an altered state, disposing of the weapon because you know, you're kind of in then half dreamland, but just fell out of his hand into the burn you know, Yeah, I

mean maybe he maybe he didn't chuck it. Maybe he was sixty ft away from the car whatever it was when he shot himself and they put the car back, you know, yeah, he was back to the car and kind of is it a fugue something, you know, some altered state, but or they put the car back in the wrong place, and it actually did fall straight from his hand out the driver's side window right into the burn and David Couse just did just I know, but I just I have I am not so prideful that

if I completely screwed the pooch, I would want to end it all to get out of the embarrassment. So I have a difficulty with the theory of Willie got his third drunk driving and was like, Nope, not do when I'm out y'all. All yeah, well, obviously they would have to have been other reasons. That could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Like I said, you know, if really, if really really wanted to go on living, but he's facing a lot of trouble over this,

you can go hide in the bushes too. I mean, look at Ted Kennedy and he he'said a sterling example. You know, just follow that example. Yeah, is that where you're getting the hide in the bushes theory from? Now? I got that from my own past. No, just kidding, But all right, so I'm gonna I'm gonna go with suicide.

All right, Yeah, you guys have any thoughts here? I think yeah, I think all right, So okay, Scotland, I think you can put this one to bed okay, all right, and and speaking of and speaking of Scottish people, if you all would like to send us a congratulatory email for you yeah, or get really angry with this or argue with us whatever, sent us an email. That's a

Thinking Sideways podcas asked at gmail dot com. We also have a website Thinking Sideways podcast dot com where you'll find our episodes, uh, with also an episode list over on the right. We have merch out there. We've also got links to our Instagram and our Facebook and what our Twitter account to Twitter and read it. Yeah, you read it, that's right. Yeah, we got Reddit. Uh. Yeah.

We are totally social social media, as we have were on Facebook of course, where we have a page and we have a group, so like a page joined the group, you gotta answer to questions. They're easy. Uh, it's just to prove that you're not a robot. Uh. Streaming, we're all over the place, but the most funnest place to find us, of course, is on Stitcher Premium, where if you go to stitcher dot com slash Thinking Sideways used code sideways, you can listen to us four days at

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you guys. Any last thoughts? First round? For me, I have no idea what that mental trying to make a joke about the gun, but it didn't work. Puns are really horrid. Okay, I got it round. She's given me were talking, she's got married, and now she's perfected that that angry look. Yes, I'm familiar with it, which is why it scares the crap out of It's amazing the metamorphosis. All right, you guys next week, then bye bye, guys,