Thinking Sideways: TWA Flight 800

need a home. And some of the best animals I've ever met, the greatest dogs and cats came from They were just strays who came out of a shelter. So uh. And if you already have cat or a dog, or you can't have one, you know, you can always donate money they need it, or you can donate your time and you can meet lots of cool animals and cool people too. So hey, do it today or tomorrow's thick sargold? Well, hey there, and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways.

I am Steve, as always joined by and who's not sure she's Devin, have you been replaced by a pot person? Yeah? I even know what a person is. I do. I was actually going to say I think I'm a synth, but okay, we're just talking different fandoms. It's fine way it happens so much, at least in the movies. Yeah, alright, Well, I guess we've we've got a lot to cover ground and cover todays we're just we should probably just jump

into things because as always we've got a mystery and around. Yeah, well, this week we've got a big mystery, which is the crash of t w A flight eight hundred, which I think a lot of people probably know about the crash and that happened, but maybe not so aware of some of the controversy that's surrounds it and all of the theories that have spawned out of the It's kind of big. I mean, it's it's big enough that the conspiracy theories

had their own Wikipedia page. Yes, I have an important question, Um, was tw A actually an airlines or was it just like the code name they gave every airplane that ever had something tragic happened on it because trans World Airline.

I just feel like, yeah, and I just feel like every time I hear you know, prior to these last couple, every time it used to be oh yeah, that flights t w A whatever that was, it was really tragic, and it's just like, well, I really feel like t w A something something or you know, letters that are almost the same organization. Are the plane that they crashed in the original or the second die Hard? Remember the

second die Hard? There must be it's very similar. That's but t w A was big enough, they were, it was recognizable, and they do not exist anymore. Yeah, but there for a I think they were the biggest airline anywhere. They were one of the top, and that would be kind of like, you know, the leader and crashes therefore also yeah, well let me give a quick little disclaimer here.

We're gonna call this a disclaimer. We've just talked about how big this story is and how many theories are out there, and there is a lot a lot of content associated with it, and we're not going to be able to hit every single point because there is just so much. I mean, I've watched multiple documentaries on this already, hours and hours worth of time, and we're not going there. Of the NTSP report itself, is like, what three hundred plus pages. Yeah, I read most of the things. I

don't know. This script feels like it might be so. So my point is in saying that is if this is your favorite or pet story, don't get upset if we leave something out that you think is extremely important or pertinent. You know what you need to do. You need to go online and join the discussion, because I know there's gonna be a lot of conversation about this when this episode drops, and that's going to be the

place to share it and and have those conversations. Those are places like the Facebook, the Reddit, um, Twitter maybe, but like it's pretty hard to have. So I would say the Facebook group and the Reddit group yea, yep, those are totally it. Before I forget, I do want to thank both Christie and Megan who suggested this one

for us. So let's get into the story. Uh. Story tastes place on the seventeenth of July when t w A Flight eight hundred was scheduled to leave JFK International Airport in New York City at seven o'clock at night, with its destination being Paris, France. The plane itself was a Boeing seven four seven Dash one hundred and at that point it had been in service for about twenty five years, which honestly isn't that long when you think of how many aged seven four seven as there are

flying around the world right now. Oh yeah, that's still I mean, yeah, I think it has been over sixteen thou flights something like that. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, planes aren't like cars. So one thing they're they're better built, they're well maintained, better than cars, and so yeah, they'll go forever close to Oh yeah, no talking about well built. I told you guys, I went into the Boeing factory and took the tour and it's amazing the stuff that

they do. Um. It was incredible to me, just like sidebar, how many things you have done? The longer we do this, the more I'm like, when does Steve have the time to do all this stuff? Okay? Got it? Um. So, if you're wondering what a seven four seven Dash one looks like, it's pretty easy to tell it's it's a jumbo jet, of course, but it's got that funny hump at the nose. So the cockpit is in that upper section and then the windows run along and all the way almost all the way to the tip of the nose.

So that's kind of an easy you way to identify it. The presidential plane is or the presidential Yeah, when the presidents in its air Force one technically, but yes, that is the plane that they use when he and staff are traveling around. Is it the double decker ones? It's not truly double decker. I mean it's it's like the British Airways one where there's like a little first class

cabin behind and then it's everybody, all us pleads down below. Correct, there's like a yeah when you look at it, there's maybe a dozen or so windows up there. Some of the later versions they actually elongated the bulbs, you know, to where it is a little more double decker you looking and more. I just think that's like the British Airways from like the early two thousands. Is like what I think of when I think of this plane? Got it? Got it? You want to see a weird one with

a bull John Look up pictures. I don't want to see anything weird with bull No, no, no, no no. Look at the Dreamliner. That plane in the world, the one that are not the Dreamliner, it's the what is the newest plane that Boeing is. Well, what is that? They have a name for the plane that carries the parts of the Dreamliners around, and yeah it is. It is literally a seven four seven with another seven four seven stacked on top of it. Crazy looking. If you want

to see a weird plane, look that thing up. But we were already way off topic. It's gonna be a long show, as I said. The plane was scheduled to leave JFK at seven o'clock, but it was delayed because of mechanical issues with engine number three. It was about to explode no, but eventually the ground crew fixed the issue and at eight o two pm it was given clearance to leave the gate, and at eight nine pm t w A Flight eight left the ground. It followed

its expected flight path by heading briefly south. And if you don't know, JFK International Airport is right on the ocean, so they almost immediately when they head south, they're out over the Atlantic Ocean. So this all takes place over the ocean. But they go south very briefly, and then they change heading and they go into generally east northeast rely trajectory of Long Island. That's actually a flight path of eight hunter takes it right past Plumb Island. I

didn't notice that one. Does it matter which engine is engine number three? It does not. That actually doesn't officially doesn't play into anything. Yeah, no, totally. Um so the but the plane takes off and the flight time lasts

for about thirteen minutes. Now, it's a nice July evening in New York, so of course there's quite a few people out and about, and at the time that flight eight hundred or two eight hundred is in the air, seven or eight hundred people are out and about and happy to be looking in the direction of where the

plane would be flying along the coastline. And these people reported that at eight thirty one pm they saw some of them, I should say, not all of these people, not all, not more like around fifty to a hundred, depending on the accountings, but they reported that they saw something rising from the horizon on a generally upward trajectory exactly like that was the thing. I looked at my clock and they were like, it was like eight thirty one.

You know that it's been pinned down that way. Okay, but let's just say a lot of these people, I mean some of them were like standing on the beach on Long Island. Some of them were like, you know way Inland might like, you know, ten miles in that kind of thing. So they're all over something rising from the horizon is different for for the guy that was like a new you know way up in Brooklyn versus the guy that was standing on the beach on Long Island.

That's absolutely credibly different things. Yeah. Yeah, though that that does play apart that will actually come on in our fairy section. Yeah. Um. Now to to address what Joe says in terms of like what these things would look like from different perspectives, some of these people said they thought it looked like a distress flare. Others said they thought it looked like cheap fireworks. Uh, and a number of people actually said they thought it looked like a

missile um flying up into the sky. And they described is a bright white light that came up from the horizon a light, Yeah, there is a red light. Yeah, it changes color, but it again, it went generally upwards or in some instances upwards and then kind of at

a forty five degree angle. So there's a lot of it's very loose in terms of exactly what the flight path of this supposed object was after a couple of seconds of watching this thing fly into the sky, they watched it suddenly erupt into a fireball and then plummet towards the ocean. And after a couple of seconds that fire balls split into two. It split into two pieces, and then those pieces continued to fall into the ocean.

And that, of course was the explosion of t w A flight eight hundred, And what they saw was the flames and then it's splitting into multiple parts as it crashed. Now, the people on the shore, they weren't the only ones to see this happen. There were people in boats. I would imagine a lot of people saw this happen, the actual explosion of the plane, the actual event. There were

people who were in boats on the water nearby. There's also a couple of pilots one I know, there's a helicopter pilot from the Coast Guard, and a couple of commercial pilots. There's a number of pilots that they reported it. But the boaters were nearby and they immediately went to

the crash site to try to help. They couldn't do much though, because the water was literally on fire and if you if you go out and google this, you'll see the images of pieces of wreckage floating in the water, and there's flames all over because the jet fuel that was on fire is floating on top of the water. And so these guys couldn't get in there to try to help survivors, which was their aim, and you know

understandably that unfortunately. Yeah, actually, but there was a lot of stuff floating on the surface, and as you can imagine, it wasn't just parts of the plane. It was luggage and it was bodies. There were a total of two and thirty people on board the aircraft when it went down, and none survived. So it's a very catastrophic event. And at the time that it happened, this was the second

worst aircraft accident in US history. Five years no longer, is I mean five years later with United Airlines Flight one seventy five and American Airlines Fly at eleven again five years later at eleven. Those numbers were massively, massively, you know, they just went down, They dropped down the rankings very quickly. Well, yeah, so they can't they must count like the total loss of life in those ones, because I'm sure there were more people on the t w A flight than there were on either of those

two planes. Yeah, I don't think those were stuff Those were stuff full. But I do believe that it's the total, the total disaster. I think it's the way it's described that was a pretty bad one. Yeah. Um So, like I said, there's people on the water and at that point and a massive search and rescue operation is launched, an official one, and police and civilian boats are out there. Eventually it's military vessels. They're combing the area. At first

they're looking for survivors. Once they realized that they're not going to find in these survivors, they are trying to recover both wreckage and the bodies of the people who were killed in the accident, plus looting, plus an occasional bit of looting. According to Yeah, I can't take full credit, it's true. Now, Okay, So here's here's normally how this

stuff goes down. Is normally, when there's an accident with an airplane, the National Transportation Safety Board, the NTSB, which was what we're going to call him from here on out, they'd comed it out to the scene and they'd investigate to determine what happened, and more importantly, how to prevent it from happening again. And I feel like a lot of people may not really know that the t in

TSP is out there, but you've seen their handiwork. You've seen reconstructed planes after an accident, and they're the guys who do that. Giant bottles are Superglue is their friend. They put these things back together to figure out what went wrong so that it doesn't happen again. It's just like a giant model for a kid. Yeah, just got blood and stuff on it. But yeah, the wreckage of flight eight hunt TTB flight eight hundred, it fell into three rather distinct zones. This is the way that they

categorized it. They were the red, the yellow, and the green zones. The red zone is was basically directly underneath where the explosion happened. Uh. This and this is important if you ever go in and read the documentation from the NTSB and their official their final report UM, and

of course the conspiracy documentaries will make reference to it. Uh. The yellow zone was very small and in the god it was the eastern corner of the red zone sort of that was kind of like in the northeastern corner of Yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of hard to tell in their little drawing. And then the farthest east would be the green zone. It was obviously much farther along than either of them. The front of the plane was

in the red zone, so that's the first zone. A little bit more of the plane right around where the wings joined the body of the plane, that section that was in the yellow zone, and then every think we're there, so the tail, the wings, the majority of the fuselage of the plane were actually in the green zone. That's

very counterintuitive to me, isn't it. It is, And we will talk about that, Okay, I know, I know, yeah, And I want to make sure that I'm pointing that out because I don't know that people are necessarily tracking. The plane was headed east and but the front of the plane landed most westerly, correct, Okay, yeah, most westerly. We're pretty sure that's technical term, it's the nautical term.

So we talked about all those folks that were out there and and saw this light come up from the horizon, and they saw the explosion, and they were not shy about telling the authorities that they had seen something like this, and because that shouldn't be happening, and that of course got the attention of the U. S. Government, most specifically the FBI. The thing is is that this, you know, what they describe, makes everybody wonder if this was an

act of terror, if this plane was brought down intentionally. Well, you know, I gotta tell you, it was before the reports of possible missiles came out. I mean I was that night. I was talking to a friend on the phone because I was alive when this happened. Believe it or not, pus cognizant, but he's like, yeah, turning your TV. There's a huge plane crash in New York and I turned it on. This has just happened. They got helicopters out there kind of there. Just nobody knows what had happened.

Nobody said anything about missiles. And yeah, still he's said to me, terrorism, you know, I mean he was, he was dead share at the moment at that time that it was terror, which is really funny when you think about how you know, that's before the terror alert became a thing. But everybody just like, planes don't just come down out of the sky, you don't just yeah, they don't. Just something had to have caused. So yeah, well there and this is not like you know, everybody acts like

nine eleven. There was no terrorism before then, going to say there was the original right then? Right, yeah, that was I thought I was taking that, but I could be Yeah, I mean around within a year, yeah, I mean there there had been a lot of stuff. I think the cob terrorists and towers attack in Saudi Arabia had happened just right before then there and there had been there had been a building things like what's his name? Who did the Oklahoma City bomb? That had only been

a couple of years prior. So people immediately when something of this scale happens like, that's not normal. Somebody did that? Who the hell was it? And that is you know, it's consider there looked, it's viewed as terrorism because it is, but more importantly, it's considered as a it's crime, and the NTSB doesn't have the jurisdiction to investigate a criminal action, so the FBI had to come in. But here's the thing. The behind therefore, TA is not figuring out what brings

down planes and reconstructing them. So while there may have been a lot of carotterie in the beginning, according to some people who were involved, as time wore on, there was more and more friction through lack of communication and different methods of operation and maybe lack of knowledge of what goes on when you reconstruct a plane. Um, so they're they're in there. Um. Now here's the thing. This investigation, it took a long time. The FBI, they help out.

It takes about ten months to recover all of the bodies and they you know, the ones that weren't on the surface, we're about a hundred and fifty feet down. And then the the plane itself right that that did help out a lot in recovering those bodies. In seven the FBI would come out, so this is a year. After a year and several months, they would come out and say, listen, we couldn't find any sign of foul play, so we don't think someone brought the plane down intentionally. So, uh,

we're closing our investigation. And in TSP, you're on it's your show go dance. I mean, you know, it's likely, they said, and if you find anything that contradicts that, let us know and we'll come back. Maybe they might have, but I'm sure if they were like and if you find a giant missile hole. Let us know, and we will come investigate some more. But right now we don't have any proof of that. So we're tired of this. We're leaving. You guys are a bunch of nerds who

are trying to put your thing back together. You do that, We're going to go do other stuff. I gotta say, you give it to give it. Some of my other observations about the FPI ten months is actually a pretty brief investigation for those guys. Yeah, really, I'm sure they were just tired of fighting Paly quick probably be probably a little bit of pressure from the government to to probably you know, issue some sort of a fine name, to put all these conspiracy stuff stuff to rest. And

you want that's probably the main reason. You really want your citizens to feel safe traveling, especially by air. That's a huge, huge portion of the economy. And if people are, you know, for a year, sitting there thinking, but every plane is getting shot out of the sky, or maybe one plane, but it could be the plane I get onto. I'm not getting on an airplane anymore. I don't know. I didn't bother to do any research into the economic

impact of this attack. I get really had a dentity, but you know what I mean, Like I think after nine eleven people stopped taking airplanes for a while because they were so scared, you know. So it was just kind of I can totally understand why the FBI would be like, we gotta get ahead right now. Thanks. Yeah, okay, So I'm gonna I'm gonna speed things along here a little bit because these investigations are very, very meticulous and

they take a long time. The NTSB would finally render their findings in August of two thousands, so that's like four years later. That's a long time, and there's a lot of information. Like Joe said earlier, their report on this, their final report is over three hundred pages long. There was an interim report or two that were put out, so there's there's tons of information out there. I'm gonna I'm gonna try and cook this down to as simple and basic or short of time as I can, and

we're still gonna be here for a while. So here's what they say caused the explosion. A faulty wire. Seven seven sevens, as with a lot of large aircraft, don't carry their fuel in external tanks like you'll see on some smaller aircraft. Instead, they stored in the wings and a portion of the fuselage underneath where the passengers sit the body of the plane. And it's just simple flight economics.

I mean, you don't ever see jumbo planes like that because a big tank causes air drag, which slows you down, requires more fuel to get where you're going. So it makes just total sense in terms of fuel economy and efficiency. Well, you also put it in the wings because that's kind of the fulcrum of the plane. That's where it balances, so it gives them some rigidity, it helps them out

that way. Don't put it away in the back because as a as a tank empties in your tail becomes light, you know, and things like that, and then you gotta deal with that, and that causes dragon that you got. So, yeah, in the wings. Although I was reading somewhere it sounds like they do actually keep some fuel in the tail, believe it or not. It was surprising to me. You know, it just seems too far away. You could use your well they might do it as a trim tank kind

of situation. Yeah, but you're right, Yeah, gas in the tail, Yeah, it's too far away. We don't have any kind of mechanism to get that back of the plane. Come on, yeah, well you're not vacuums. That's why, you know. I mean, okay, okay, okay, let's get back on track. So so why is it important that I'm telling you about this fuel time? Yeah? Why?

Well it is because one of the inside of what is known as the center wing tank, that's the one that's the body of the plane, there is a small pump that's, you know, assist in the process of moving

fuel around. And there isn't much in terms of wiring in there, but there was a wire and it appears to have caused a short and that wire happened also, you know, wires are interconnected everywhere, and one of the things they pointed to show that it was probably that particular wire is it goes into a bundle that runs up into the cockpit and controls the fuel Quantity Indicator system, the gas gage. It's they refer to it as the

f q I S, but it's the gas gage. And because the tank wasn't completely full and the short is going on, one of the pilots is saying, look at these weirdo readings that I'm getting on the gauge for the center wing tank. This is just prior minute or two prior to the explosion. Um and yeah, and and when that spark arked, there was vapor fuel in there, so it wasn't the liquid fuel but the vaporized version

of it, which is which is always flammable. I actually watched the thing today, a guy taking jet fuel and a lighter and sticking or a match and sticking it in the fuel and not igniting, but as soon as he missed it across the flame, it just it lit right up. And they're saying that what happened is that vapor hits that spark that caused the explosion, which ignited the about three pounds of liquid fuel that was in the center wing tank, and it tore the plane apart

just in front of the wings. So remember we talked about in the red yellow in the green zone. Okay, the nose of the front of the plane was ripped

off in the initial explosion. The following probably second or third explosion or you know, portion of that explosion ripped off another say, about twenty or thirty foot section of the plane that included the shoulders where they join up with the plane and some of the landing gear and yeah, and well, of course and everything it was in that area, but essentially and then this giant ring of fuselage, it's

just a big ring. And then what the NTSB says happened, So it was the nose went down into the yellow zone or the red zone, the second that thin that portion went down into the yellow zone. And then the plane continued to fly for a short time with its wings on and eventually crash. And I know that that's the crazy thing because a lot of people like that that doesn't make any sense. I'm I'm on board with this whole you know, the wings floated situation, but I'm not.

I don't understand how a fire in the wings causes an explosion that first tears off the no is and then tears off this other people let me, I may have glossed over that in the in the wrong in a bad way. It's the center wing tank, the part of the a tank that is in the body of the plane, not in the wings. It connects the two wings, so it's the center of the plane. It's between the two wings. Center wing tank makes me think it's the tank in the middle of you know, so when it's

in the body of the plane and it explodes. That's why it popped the front of the plane off. Okay, and it's in the middle of the plane from from

left or right the full width of it. Think of as a unified structured right and everything just one solid structure with Yeah, I got it, I just I but I still am like not totally it's I mean, it's fine, but I don't totally understand how the front two parts exploded into like two different things, and why the front you know what it's it's all in the way that the fuel was and the explosion. It's it's fine. I've read it a couple of times. It is still tough

to figure why. Well, and this is this is where you can kind of see why, like people don't believe this because it doesn't totally makes sense. I'm sure if you are a scientist about something like this or an

expert in something like this, it does make sense. But for like us, you know, Layman, this is like super counterintuitive and still kind of like, I mean, I guess that makes sense, but only because you said it's super science e. So that the thing is is that it does it is it does seem a little odd that the entire nose of seven forty seven could come off because of an explosion in the center wing tank at the same time, that wouldn't be explained by the missile

theory either, which is unless the missile hit, unless it was an enormous freaking missile, because everybody's talking about and you're jumping a little head on duping ahead. But but yeah, so, I mean, actually, it's actually more easily explained by an explosion in the center wing tank than although in theory you can encompass both those things, the missile and the

explosion in the center wing tank. So as Joe has given away one of our theories, actually multiple theories by a missile, I'll keep my favorite theory a secret until later, okay, so you can tell me whisper it. Here's the thing. The NTSB says that from explosion to final crash, the plane was in the air for approximately forty seven to fifty four seconds. So explosion happens, that front bit falls off,

and the plane continues in a forward trajectory. They said that it was after three to five seconds after that explosion the plane rolled and actually started to climb, so it actually went upwards, and according to their analysis, they say that it initially was at thirteen thousand, eight hundred feet just when the explosion happened, and it climbed to somewhere between fifteen to sixteen thousand feet in elevation, which is at climb that's three to sixeventy, which is weird.

But at that point the fire had continued through the plane, and you know, then bits of it are falling off, and that's why we've got the wreckage spread the way that it is over the debris field. So when the soaring was happening, this was before the plane broke apart. Is that true? No, No, in front of plane comes off and then the plane continues to fly and actually rolls and goes upwards. I know, I know it sounds weird.

I was willing to say, well, maybe the pilots were like, wow, we're on fire, and I think when they're on fire, they're supposed to go up because there's less air, so it'll maybe if they're at high enough altitude they can't do that to extinguish it. But the pilots were already exposed, right, But that's but that was my thought was like, Okay, that makes sense that the pilots were like, oh, yeah, I think it was Yeah, it was like, I don't

think there was fire and then explosion. Yeah, Now it was just the the black felage of the airplane somehow going like a hundred thousand, undred one thousand to two thousand. Let's just round it out that way. Yeah, yeah, and we'll get to it because I have some weird quirks with it. Um. So the NTSB they say that, listen those things that the witnesses saw, you know, that that stuff going upwards from the horizon, actually that was the

plane itself post explosion. And what they say is that when the plane exploded, it would have begun to vent fuel which was on fire, which would create a white cloud behind it. So the people who say they saw it come from the horizon, they may have presumed they saw it from the horizon, but it may have actually been somewhere in the distance and not truly on the horizon.

And that weird trail that they saw was burning fuel that would make that white cloud, and that they would watch that rise upwards because the plane is now gaining altitude before it then has its final explosion, which is then the explosion they see and then they see the plane falling and splitting as the fuselage is breaking apart in the wings are shearing off. Okay, that's their official explanation of what they say people saw. Now I I

don't know. I mean, it's I understand what Devin is saying, because it's just weird that two thirds of the plane should continue on. And I know, Joe, you don't think it's weird. I'm I'm I'm in the middle of the road on this, but it's a it's an amazing series of events, and like we said, that's why people don't

really believe it. It seems just outlandish. One of the things that I really haven't seen is that I've seen a map of all the locations of the different witness side things, and I read all the various numbers of people have said, Okay, I think it rose from the horizon, and other people have said, well, I think it started about halfway up from the horizon. I want to know where those people were, because I'm suspecting the guys that the people who said I saw it come from the horizon.

We're probably well inland, and the guys who said they saw it started about halfway. We're probably on the beach. But I mean, we'd have to know. I mean, and nobody. I've never seen any analysis of this. It actually tries to break it out by you know, these people were way over here and here's where they saw it to originate. And I'd like to see that that would be very interesting And totally had no idea the government even knows this, and hopefully you would think they would have analyzed that

whole thing because it's a worthwhile piece of information. So that's that's the end of this portion of the story. By the way, don't worry. They went ahead and they fixed in all seven four sevens that wire and potentially

that explosion happen. Yeah, I think they now now they're pumping nitrogen into those banks so that the fuel vapor canding night there was no air and well that was the thing they were like, listen, it was July, it was hot as hell, and they sat on the tarmac for an hour, so no wonder there was vapor in that. Plus also apparently the center wind tank is over there's an air conditioning unit. Yeah, there's a big air conditioning unit. This guy and so it's one of the major heat

sources on the plane. It's a huge heast think, yeah, right underneath that tank, and so that's generated tons of heat to that. Is that still true as far as I was still there. They might have added a little layer of insulation or something interesting. I have always felt like the air on airplanes makes me feel really really nauseous, in the same way that like having my window open at a gas station makes me feel really really nauseous.

And that is maybe now connecting in my brain that actually maybe it's because there was maybe a little bit of combing. That's actually just the sedative that they pumped into the airplane to keep the vaccines. Actually, yeah, I think for me, it's just for me, it's kind of psychosomatics that realized I'm just breathing in all the filth and germs from no it definitely definitely yeah. Okay, well that is the end of the story at this point. As I said, so we should probably get into theories.

Let's look at the theories. Let's continue on actually with what's from the NTSB, and let's go with the official theory, which is it truly was an accident. One of the things that the NTSB pointed out to back up their findings was the cockpit voice recorder. And I mentioned this earlier that the one of the pilots had talked about the crazy readings that he was getting on the gauge for the center wing tank. So they said, well, look, that obviously means that something was going on because the

gauge was bouncing all around. Another thing that they would say is that when they examined the skin of the plane, you know, the the outside of the plane, they would see no entrance or exit wounds on it, and there

were no signs of melted metal. And melted metal is important because if there's a high explosive that impacts the plane, it's going to create very intense heat, which is going to melt the skin of the airplane and throw slag everywhere, kind of like you know, if you ever see a guy arc welding, stuff splatters everywhere, beds all over the place. And they said, well you should see that if a missile or some kind of high explosive were used on the outside to cause it from the exterior of the plane,

not happening from the inside. Now, what I really want to know is what the spirk on Devon's faces, because she is holding back really really hard. I just really love that they're like, yeah, jet fuel. Jet fuel doesn't melt metal like that. It doesn't have it doesn't leave the same kind of patterns. It doesn't. I'm just saying. All I can say is that I love that the t s A was like NTSB was like, uh, yeah, I know jet fuel, the that melta metal. Okay, that's all.

That's all I was sarking about. So here's now. Of course, in their official explanation, we've talked about this a couple of times, is that it seems really weird that this plane rose after the explosion. I mean, if you think about, you know how we've all made paper airplanes and you throw them and they fly straight for a while and then they nose dive. But if you cut off the front I don't know, quarter or so and then chuck it, they should just start spiraling down. You did this. You

did this in the office, didn't you. But I have done this before. I've never done then cut the nose off and threw it. Yeah, and was like, ah see, that's actually my favorite theory is that it was actually just Thor with his hammer an accident just cut it off. Slops and that's why it rose, because the hammer was still stuck under it and was taking it wherever. Well, you know, but I mean we I think we mentioned

this earlier. The reason that it seems so weird that the plane rose is that by taking off the nose of the plane, you're moving the center of gravity, which should screw it up to a point that it should not be able to have lift. But doesn't believe that. I don't believe that at all, because moved the center of gravity backwards behind the wings drops the tail. I

guess what. I The reason I say that, though, is that if the wings are still chucked full of all of that fuel and you move the center of gravity, the wings are now the heavy point. They should actually tip it forward cause it to lift the wings of the fulcrum of the plane without the nose, without the front, with the wings of the falcrum. That's what the plane

balance is on when it's fully assembled. And it's fully assembled, yeah, and so you take away that that half on the right side of the wings, and then the other half goes down. So the point is that the fulcrum can never be the heaviest point, right. That's like at the falcrum way, so falking can be allied, can be waity, so it doesn't matter and so, but and so, because it's all it's floating on. When it's floating on, can't

be the heaviest part ever. But that's that's the thing, is that it's just to me, it seems strange that I see what you're saying, but trying to remember also that there is another reason I don't. It's also it also has a hell of a lot, well more than that. I mean, they were at about I think thirteen thousand feet and they just gotten orders from the tower to go to fifteen thousand, and so undoubtedly the pilots and you know, goose the gas, they goose the throttles, and

then the plane blows up. So they're there. You know, it's going, it's it's powering up, going faster, and then all of a sudden, the tail just drops because all that weights falling off the front of the plane. And so yeah, it's gonna go upwards until it either stalls or blows up. Yeah, yeah, I mean, so here's a stat that might help. It's still I still struggle with that, Joe, But I'm not going to say you're not that you're wrong.

I don't know, to be quite honest, but I do know that the plane they have the ability the seven four sevens to rise to climb somewhere between fifties six hundred and sixty four hundred feet per minute, which is pretty good climb up. And for our folks who work on the the Imperial System that we're on the Imperial System, it's named after the things. Yeah, I know, I've I've brain farted that would be seventeen hundred to fifty meters

per second or per minute climbing. So I mean, you're right, it could have gone up, and it could have continued our words like that. There is a huge amount of thrust in the in those engines. And yeah, when you when you take away that whole nose section, that's a lot of weight. Yeah, that's all, you know, a serious lot of and all those passengers too, you know, and all the luggage and everything else. I mean, all that way, it's just gone, you know. And plus the pilot just

goose throttles. So that the assumption is I don't know enough about how planes work with like electronics and bold that the throttle would stay open despite the fact that the computer that's controlling the throttle may no longer be discomputed. Well, that's That's the thing I don't quite get is that is that I think that on those planes, I'm not sure if they use cables or if it's entirely computers, wires and everything. I thought that they had backup cables

and all kinds of things like mechanical hydraulics. I'm not willing to venture. I don't. I don't really know, because you would think that if the computer stopped communicating with the plane, it would it would stop well accelerating. You would think that that, you know. But well now at the same time, though, I mean, you want the inches to keep going no matter what. You don't want the engines going, oh well, I'm not detecting the cockpit. I

think I'll just shut down over the mid Atlantic. You don't want them doing that, true, but you don't want them going like all right, full steep ahead, or like

whatever you told me last. But I'm kind of thinking that they are probably designed to keep going no matter what until until they get though, you know, hey, really shut down a verse do something because you can't have your interests just aside and hey, absolutely, I guess I just think like there, but yeah, I know at all in the middle ground that the value or the importance of that maybe negligible, because remember, post explosion, we've got about forty or fifty seconds of flight time, So it

could have just been you know, it had begun in time and so the inertia carried it. We don't know. Um, what we do know is that there is a ton of radar evidence available that track the flight. If I remember right, it's like three or four at least three or four different radar locations were tracking the plane, not just JFK, and they seemed okay. So there's a I'm

we're gonna talk about this a couple of times. But there's a documentary that came out in about t w A, and it's a bit sensationalist at times, but they make a lot about the final moments of the plane and the radar information that's out there. But that radar information tracks both the plane and then post explosion, some of its debris moving forward as it and then plummets down

into the ocean. Uh So, according to that, it does seem to indicate that the plane did indeed climb uh, and it it before it eventually would tip back down and crash into the ocean. So or well, I mean, both those things happen. Both of those things happened, probably in that order. But another thing that supports their claim is that there were there have been other aircraft that were down supposedly because of this same issue or similar

issues with the center wing tank. UM. The NTSB they conducted some tests and they took an old seven forty seven and they pumped the center wing tank not full of jet fuel, but god it was like propane or something was an aerosol fuel and then lit it ignited it and it was catastrophic. Did rip that whole poor plane apart. Uh. So they were like, well check that out. This obviously does very similar damage. There was two other

flights that they referenced in their report. There's UM which it's the Avianca flight two oh three which crashed in nine, and then the Philippines Airlines flight one forty three which crashed in nine. I will point out it's a little

odd that I get why they included it. But the Avianca flight, the one from nine that was there was a bomb that that blew up and it ignited the center wing tank, which they said the bomb itself probably would not have been enough to take the plane down, but because of where it was, it's set the center

wing tank off and that's what brought the plane. I feel like they're test to have, like, listen, we've filled it full of propane, which is it's going to ignite, and then we ignited it intentionally with the igniter and

it blew up. Look it blew up. It's kind of like those people who are like, this recipe sucked because I used peanut butter instead of regular butter, and I replaced the oatmeal with regular flour, and it was like, it's just I think what they were testing is like they wanted to see if if it would blow up in this I understand. So we feel this was something that's going to explode it it's a tank strong enough to hold all that pressure in until it suddenly just

fails catastrophe. But that's only half of the equation. They're right, they also have to prove that that one little fuse could wire or whatever could also ignite on However, my well, they were pretty sure prior to this that it couldn't do that, right, but and so maybe that's the thing, is like, that's the part that I feel like, I have no doubt that if you put a bomb on a fusile or on a fuel tank, it will explode a plane. Okay, I'm not questioning that part of it,

but I am. That's what I'm questioning. And so that's my big problem with this and that test they did where they're like, yeah, we put a super explosive thing in the tank, it exploded, the plane exploded, it's closed. That's not the big question that you missed. The point

is not the explosive, iss the igniter, the method. Yeah, and actually the I mean the their theory about that, which especially is says there there's a very low voltage wire that goes into a sensor in the tank, and actually it is designed to be very very low voltage for a reason, so it can't spark and plan out. But apparently it is part of a larger harness that and that included things like it goes back to the

fuel gage. I think it was also it wasn't the cockpit voice recorder also on that same I think it was all on the same bundle yet, and they had and they were having issues with it also at the same time, they were having issues with the fuel gage readings and which which made them think they had a

short somewhere. And so it's actually what it was. The thinking is that there was a breaker that should have shut off and prevented that that that all that extra voltage from that short from getting back into that low voltage wire in the tank. And apparently I discovered that breaker didn't shut down until kind of later than they thought it should have, which is how all that extra voltage got in there and sparked created an arc and I lit that off. So that's that's the thinging about that.

I understand that as well. Yeah, I understand that theory, but they didn't test that well, that's the thing I don't know, did they did they test that theory and it doesn't sound like it to me, but probably should have. Yeah, you know, I'll be honest, I did I While I read a lot of the information that they put out, I didn't read at all. I don't think any normal human being in the time in the month that I've been working on this could have gone through at all.

It's a lot, yeah, I think, But I think like that that the thing where they blew up to seven before they seven. I think what they were trying to just find out was this, if we if we light off the field in this tank, however we do it, is it gonna be a catastrophic to blow the nose off the plane. And we're agreeing on that. That's why they did that particular experience, right, which is fine, we

are we're arguing that same thing. I'm just saying that, like they should have done the other one somehow more important, mean like con testing that circuit to see, actually that's more important to me. Yeah, I agree they must have. I mean, of course it's the government. A Well, let's let's move on because that is the end of the official theory or the story. It was truly an accident.

So from here on out, we're gonna to a point disregard some of the ntsb s findings because that's what the folks who were putting out these theories are doing. Where and when. I'm not gonna say when it's convenient, but when it suits them. I don't want to be, you know, negative about about this. But sometimes they're saying that what the NTSB said is wrong. Sometimes they're saying it's an outright, lie, So we're just gonna follow that path. Yeah.

Sometimes they're saying they're a confidence. Sometimes they're saying they're conspiring. Yeah, there's collusion, all that kind of stuff. So theory theory number two here is that the plane was taken down and it was taken down from a missile that was fired from land. Uh And they say specifically they speculate that it was done with something like a Stinger missile, which is uh. The official acronym is the worst acronym ever. It's a man pads, marble air defense system, shoulder mounted rocket.

It's really that's the simple thing it is. But theoretically that's something that can easily be brought to a location like the shoreline, fired and then thrown into a bag and hustled away from the scenes, even like on a boat. Yeah, I was I was taking of shooting up from a boat makes more sense to me. Yeah, well the boat thing comes up from a in a different theory. But but people say, well, who could have done this and

why would they have done it? And their speculation, well, maybe this was like an early trial run on the part of Osama bin Laden or some other group that we anger It's not like it's a new idea. You remember in our Barn fifty two episode, we talked about the Black September group wanted to take down an L L jet liner in rural airport and they had Remember that was that Barn fifty two? Yeah, not Barn No, No, not not Bearing fifty two. I'm sorry, Argo, Argo sixty. Yeah,

it was fifty two. Was Vietnam. We're doing too many plane mysteries. This is the hand anyway, that that was the one where they actually got some some black market missiles and but somebody, the guy, the guy that that delivered him didn't didn't have a car, so they had to go buy some rugs and rolled missiles up in the transport them back to their apartment right of the

Rome subway system, rolled up in carpets. So it's not a new idea, no no. But but the problem with the idea here, if it was a rocket, a man pad, a man pad, the problem with the whole thing is that there should have been at least an entry wound on the plane from where the rocket hit the plane. Because it's high energy explosive, there should have been melt.

Like we talked about before that splatter or that slag, and officially there doesn't appear to have been any of that, but some people say, well that could have been hidden, and there's some ways that that could have been hidden. We're gonna talk about those in a theory and a half. Well, then, since the government bodies were investigating it, yes, generally speaking,

we're gonna move on to theory and or three. This is a different way that the missile was launched, and this is a missile from c but not with a guy on a boat with a stinger rocket, but instead it was launched from a ship that would be carrying munitions like that a k A navy or coast guard or somebody like that. And here's the thing is that

that changes the kind of rocket. It also changes to a degree the requirement of that high energy explosive impacting the plane, because not all rockets are designed to contact with their target and then explode like you want a fighter jet. You're not going to hit him, he's just too damn fast. But if you blow up near him and throw shrapnel, it's hot and fast all around in there.

And probably so this theory is saying that the reason we're not seeing a massive entry wound from a rocket is because it was high you know, I'm high tech isn't the right word, but it's a sophisticated piece of munitions that exploded and through this hot shrapnel and these one of these little pieces is what punched through the plane and punched into the center fuel tank, the center wing tank, and that is then what caused that explosion,

and that's what introduced the the ignition source rather than that wire that we were discussing earlier. Um and you know, the the NDSB they said, well, listen, it couldn't be a rocket because we didn't have any kind of trace evidence on anything that would support that. This maybe could be the reason why there's some things that we haven't talked about. And again this is something that's brought up in some of the documentaries. Uh. And that is damage done to the I think it's the left wing of

t w A flight eight. The right wing pretty well intact in terms of I mean, it's broken, but the circumference of it was pretty well intact, whereas the left wing,

the top surface of it was shattered. And the NTSB's official explanation was, listen, it was still full of fuel and when it hit the water, there was hydraulic force that pushed the fuel that was still remaining in the wing tank because there's two tanks, but pushed it through there, and that hydraulic pressure shattered the wing, and that's why that one's all broken up, whereas the other one came down in a different manner, and so they left wing

had more the right wing didn't have any fuel in it. Well, no, I think I think it's more of think of it this way. If the where it tore off from the plane, if you if that were to fall and land on that torn end first, then the impact with the ocean and all that hydraulic pressure upwards would have to go somewhere. But if the light wing were land at some kind of angle or flat or you know, with the the

front tip in, that's a different impact. So it's it's not the hydraulic pressure is not moving through the length

of it. Okay, Well, our conspiracy friends say, well, listen that that's obviously total bunk because the only way that that wing could have shattered that way is if the fuel inside of that left wing were to also have ignited, and if they were hit with some kind of rocket like this it could have set off the center wing tank, but it could have also set off the fuel in that left wing, and that would account for that shattering.

I mean, another question would be like, wasn't it dumping all the fuel like while it was falling, but also then somehow like landed and the fuel exploded out of it, Like, you can't have it both ways. I actually I did. After I wrote up all of my stuff that we're going through tonight, I actually went back to the NTSB S report and I started pouring through what of respects I could get on the wing tanks. The wings hold up to sixteen thousand gallons of fuel. Uh, that's sixty

thousand liters. I had to convert that real fast. That's a lot of fuels, so in forty or fifty seconds. If they were completely full when the accident happened, which I don't know that they were to the top full, they probably, but it could It's probably not likely that it would have burned and lost all of the fuel in that, but it probably lost a great amount of it.

So it does It does beg the question of well, that's a lot of pressure to cause that, and even if the wing was only half full, that's still weird that it would have that with shattering going. You're absolutely right, Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but you know, then again I could see if it's half full, all that liquids in the top, then it hits and it comes slamming forward with all that force, and you know, maybe bust. The hydraulic action does some crazy. It sure does. But I do think

there are still some weird questions about it. There. So another thing that our conspiracy theorist friends who are putting out the rocket from Sea theory will point to is they will talk about the fact that listen, and we've been talking about this this whole time, is all these witnesses on land, but there are witnesses who were in the air at the time that this happened, and at least several of them saw the explosion of flight at

t w A flight eight hundred. At least one of them reported seeing this light streaking upwards and making contact with the plane. He's not in the ntsb S report. That's actually one of the major complaints is that of all of these interviews that were done, a huge portion of them seem to have been omitted. And that omission or that having been cut out. People point to as well, they're actively tailoring things to fit the nario that they created for what brought this plane death. It's hard, it's

that's that's always like a hard one for me. I think you shouldn't omit things, but you do have to only include the credible ones, because when something this big happens, a lot of people just want to be a part of the story and they want to say, oh, yeah, I saw something, well and totally I saw something, And it's like you have to deem if that report is credible or not, but also you got to include most

of it. There. There are issues though, with the way that the interviews were handled and the modification of witness statements, and we'll talk about some of this in our next theory that our next one. But there are people who say that like I never said that, I never said that's not what I told them, And they're being cited in the reports, Well they summarized, they didn't quote them directly.

The witnesses were all over the place. The problem they figured rely and literally one reason you really can't you can't really have all that stuff in there because it doesn't any sense when we them altogether. It makes no sense whatso it makes it very difficult. You're absolutely right, But but that aside, what we still haven't figured out is whether this this was launched from sea or from land. We still don't really see a clear reason why to

bring this particular plane down. It doesn't seem to be a logic other than fear into the United States. Yeah. On the problem with that is that if that had been brought down by terrorists, they would have taken credit for it. Nobody did. Yeah, yeah, that is that is the odd part. Um. Let's let's move to our next theory, and this is that it is a military mistake and

cover up, I think. And we talked about the fact that in the beginning, when we were talking about the civilian boats going to try to help, there were also military boats there in the area, and allegedly there was one military craft that was almost directly underneath the explosion, and it is seen on radar. Supposedly, I haven't, I don't.

I can't read the radar tracks well enough to know this myself, but supposedly it leaves the area at high speed while everybody else is going directly to the area. So people say, well, obviously there was a ship in the area, and if it was one of ours, if it was a U. S. Military ship and it accidentally launched a weapon and brought down a civilian craft, well you know, no wonder they left well identified, you know,

not that I have ever seen. Here's the thing, and this, this really this bugs the holy hell out of me. We've talked about this before. These boats and these ships have lots of people on them working every day. And if if the military were to have made a food bar like this, then you would imagine that they couldn't keep quiet over it. How how fast is thirty knots uh not? Not as like one and one eighth mile, It's about and something like that fast. Yeah, I just

you know, if I saw a plane falling straight towards me. Yeah, but if you realize that you launched a weapon and then a civilian craft comes falling out of the sky, I would also buggy on. After the fact, you would think that these people would feel a responsibility to say, listen, we screwed up in a big way and the military has done this and they've had to you know, they've been made accountable for there was uh yeah, I mean it's happened before. Well, it does happen. I mean, but

you're playing with dangerous toys. There's going to be accident. Yeah. The whole thing is, No, none of these guys, I mean, the guy, the captain on this ship, the captain had the Excel. All these these are not morons. They're not like your typical criminals. You know, they're not like they're not thinking, oh yeah, if we just boogie out of here as quick as we can, nobody will ever figure

out that it was us. You know. They don't like that, you know, and they're not eight years old now, so I can see them, like Deva says, you know, getting the hell out if there's a fireball directly above you. I can see them stepping on the gap yourself. But you're gonna stop and come back. But you don't hide,

you don't just hope nobody will notice. Yeah, although I will say, um, you know, on a bigger scale, if this was like a vast conspiracy that ranged, you know, into lots of different organizations, it wouldn't be uh oh, yeah, we made a mistake, but we're going to get out of here. They'd be like we made a attack that was ordered from higher ups, and we feel justified in that because that was that was the goal, was to take this plane down for whatever reason, and we will

be taken care of. Yeah, it could be that if it was I like this, Serri. Actually it's like, you know, we're gonna do this and then we're gonna go out to sea and we're going to kill the crew and them over or maybe it's a you know, skeleton crews behind killing and five people and you can kill four hundred instead. You know, it's there, you know, the small crew. But you know it's also it could be like, well, listen, this is a covert operation. Is that's what this boat

is for. Its covert operation. There's a you know, mass terrorist on that airplane. We're going to take him out. There's going to be a few civilian casualties, but the you know gain of life from whatever, I mean, you know, whatever story is told could be there. I'm not saying this is a good theory, because I don't think it's a good theory, but I just think they're like, there're a lot I can get there well, and and the

thing is so easily. If it truly was a military vessel that did it, then it would take a massive internal conspiracy of the US government's part to cover that up. And that's what a lot of people are going on. And one of the things that really gets people going is the reported behavior of the b I during the investigation, because, like I said before, they don't normally investigate aircraft crashes like this um and a lot of people came forward after the fact and said there was some weird stuff

early on in the investigation. Of course, what's happening is, you know, they're getting the parts of the plane in to inspect and reassemble, and they start testing it for explosive residue to figure out, well, did somebody actually shoot this down? And they start getting pieces of the plane which you're testing positive for explosive residue. So everybody freaks out,

Oh my god, Oh my god, Oh my god. Except then they decide to dismiss those findings because they say, well, listen, these parts of the plane were underwater for a couple of days, so there's no way they can still have the residue, so that must be Um, oh god, what

is the word I'm looking for. It's cross contamination from the military vessels that brought them back that of course would be have would have unitions have that kind of residue on down well, and also there were at least some of the interior contamination was potentially at least acounting part the fact that they use that very plain for explosive training for dogs about a month before the accident.

Actually that that actually gets a lot of ridicule because if you look at the timeline, that plane is sitting on the tarmac, it lands then and then within about an hour to an hour and a half passengers are boarding and it's leaving again. So there's a very short amount of time to do a dog training exercise with nobody else on it, but apparently directly next to it on the tarmac for hours was a completely empty seven

four seven. So people say, listen, they were probably actually testing the other one, and they said they were in this one. But but even if that's the case, the thing was underwater for days. That's part of it, but it shouldn't have been there. Yeah, but as part of the explosive thing too. It's not even a very busy little seven forty seven like ours what we're talking about.

That's some down time. Why they do maintenance on it and it which is a great time to bring your dogs and your bombs on board and do you know, do a little plane around. But like you said, too, it was also all this stuff was immersed for a long period of time. I don't know what kind of residue was left behind from a bunch of stuff burning on your plane, not not just the jet fuel, but you know, seat cushions and luggage, all kinds of nasty

stuff burning. And that's gonna be some residue too. I mean, it's not necessarily the same signature as an explosive, you know, But I don't know well, and you know, they're at one point during their investigation, there's a hole to do made of this reddish material that is found on the seats of the airplane that was chewing gum. It's chewing gum it. It officially was figured out to be the glue that the seat manufacturer used to adhere the fabric

to the cushion. According to the there's a like I said, there's multiple documentaries. There's one that came out in two thousands seven or two thousand eight ish and it says, oh yeah, no, that's actually not true. That manufacturer never came forward and said that, but in the official reports that's what it says. There's also some things. There's more weird behavior on the part of the FBI. UM. One of the people said that was involved, said that he took a part to the FBI to have invested part

of the plane, said can you test this? They were testing for nitrates. Uh, And they took it in and the thing tested positive, and everybody started wigging out, and then the FBI shut him out and said, we have to ship it somewhere. And it's because we don't know if this is real and the machine has prone to false positives, except the machine was state of the art and the guy who made the machine and cells it was like, yeah, no, there's no such thing as false

positives with this thing. It goes down to you know, so many parts per million to make this conclusion. So there's like when McDonald's is like, no, our ice cream machine is down, when you know it's just the employees just want all the ice cream for themselves. That's exactly the same thing. Um. But I can see if you did get if you did get a positive on this on this thing, you'd want to stip it off to

somewhere else for more testing. But and so the thing that people say is weird about that is that there there shouldn't have been any difference between what they were doing on site. Also once it left the hangar, that part has been unaccounted for since then. So people find that to be very very hinky. You know, they lose stuff. You know, the FBI still can't put his hands on d V. Cooper's cigarette. They really, they lose stuff all the time. Let's see what not What else did the

FBI do well? According to investigators, they manipulated wreckage the NTSP. We're talking about NTSB investigators against the FBI. Okay, I just wanted to be clear that we're saying that like one agency that was investigating it, one national agency that was in charge investigating is he's making allegations against the other. That it's not just random people on the internet saying correct. Well,

I heard this not in the comments section. So DSP investigator James Spear, he's been open about saying that he walked into the hangar at one point and caught a unnamed FBI agent using I think it was like a hammer on pieces of wreckage to change their shape which is just more than a little bit unusual when you want to keep things as they were when it's like a crime scene or whatever, exactly know what it looks like if you've modified its appearance. But he was, he

was weighing on something. Is this guy sure it was wreckage and not just something else. As far as I'm awhere, they only had wreckage in there. It wasn't like they were storing wreckage. And by the way, the auto shop was next door and he was working on his pondy another stuff in there. I'm sure they had their tools, they had their lunchboxes, there was miscellaneous others. I don't think he was fixing us. But so here's other things

that they out their allegations they have out there. Um, they say that David Mayer, who was the the ntsb S or the NDSP, he's the NTSBS head guy for this investigation. He was seen believed to be coluding with the FBI, and he was going through the hangar and as things were coming in, they were being tagged with their location and know what zone did they come from,

how did they get there? And he apparently was changing what was written on the tags, which is highly unusual because again that changes and says the landing gear didn't drop in first, he dropped in last. That would greatly influence your conclusion of the order of events of the explosion. So that has got people. There's a lot of people who just hate that guy's guts. They do not like him at all. I don't have an opinion on him, but they they go to some pretty great lengths to

say some rather nasty things about him. But again, why why are they doing all this? Why are they hiding it? Well, if it's a military mistake, then that gives them a reason to all work, the NTSB and the FBI, to work together with whatever military organization it was to hide the fact that they accidentally took down one of our civilians. That I don't I don't see how how changing the labels so it looks like I don't know. I just don't see how that really affects the outcome of the

investigation all that much. I mean, I think it redirects it. If you think that a part of the plane fell off first, and then now you think it in the very beginning, and now you think it fell off halfway through the process, Yeah, that's going to change analysis. Yeah, I kind of I kind of see what that is, but it still doesn't take away the fact that if the military screwed up took it down with the missile, that fiscal evitage is going to remain. That's still going

to be there. There should be and and people have said, listen the missile. Probably actually they're Okay, we're gonna jump forward and then I'm going to get into this, So we're going to get into the documentary multiple missile theory. But there's people who say that listen to missleton actually explode in the plane. It just punched through the plane from underside to top side, and that's what caused the explosion. And so because that medal was torn and not ignited

and melted, they're not seeing it. And I'm using air quotes when I'm saying they're not seeing it. Do I believe that. I'm not on board with that. So, like I said before, they're multiple times. Now there's a documentary. This is the two thousand thirteen documentary UH focused on the event, and it's I'm pretty sure it's made by Tom Salcott. He's features prominently in it. He's actually in the one that's from two thousand seven or eight. I

think that's the year. Anyway, I keep forgetting what you're the older one was made in uh And he's made allegations pretty much from the beginning. He was in the meetings, the official hearings back in two thousand and we're taking place on this. So like this guy is deeply involved. What's his relation to it? Is he just an investigator? He just took an interest in it and went from there. He has he had no formal training yet to be involved in it. Yeah, I think you're right, all right.

Uh So, but as we've already talked a little bit about the fact that you know, he along with several of the people, didn't feel that the NTSB and the FBI were doing everything above board. And one of the things that they used to say that something is being hidden is the bodies of the people in the plane. And I apologizing going to be a tadbit graphic here, but the bodies of the passengers should have shown evidence of exposure to extreme fire temperatures or extreme heat and

extreme pressure changes. And they also should have shown evidence from you know, if they were thrown out of their seats or their seats disconnected from impacting other objects inside of the plane and eventually impossibly the surface of the ocean, and that should have followed a pattern which it makes sense, you know, in the plane and after they identified the bodies, the guy in the tail of the plane is probably not going to be burned, whereas the person sitting over

the center wing tank should have suffered extreme you know, fired down of some of the other stuff, Like when you're talking about trauma and stuff like that, it's like, you know, after this body has fallen like, you know, thousands of thousands of feet and hit the ocean, maybe been submerged for a while. Yeah, how do you how the hell can you tell? I mean, I understand the burns, you're going to recognize burns, but some of the rest

of that, I'm not so sure. But yeah, Well, the thing is is that they're saying, according to this documentary, they say that the medical examiner's stuff. I want to say, it's fabricated, but maybe modified or altered because they say

the the conclusions. Because they're saying that there are bodies that weren't burned that should have been burned, and there were bodies that were burned that should not have been in the plane that should not have been burned, right, and the same thing with impact damage and stuff like that. They really they go off on this. But if you when I read things, and it took me several times to really internalize this, the center wing tank is not

the only thing on fire. The wings are venting fuel and burning, which means the body of the plane is the center of the fuselage, has got fire pouring down it. So it actually maybe does make sense that some people who were farther back in the plane are burned. The heat sources and the other thing. You know, even if that wasn't happening, if if it was a center wing tank that was on fire and that's where the big

conflagration is going on. And also you know that these are people seated behind it well back and everything like that, but the plane is still moving forward at a high speed. What happens is all that heat is pushed back into the plane, so the people actually it would actually cool the people right next to the tech, they would be less likely to get burned. The people behind them would

be more like barbecued. It's kind of the way I'm thinking, Yes, I totally agree with that, I just I agreed I just agree that it's weird that, um, it sounds like not everybody in like rows were burned, or well, the burns didn't. Like theoretically you should expect that the row of seats. So let's just say I'm making up a number here, row A to F. They that all should have had relatively similar burns, but instead only a B and C of C or D and E of the row behind him, and then you know, so it kind

of makes a stagger pattern. That's one of the things that I've seen pointed out is that, like the injuries and stuff seem to not be as uniform as one would you know, initially expect, But then again, explosions and fires tend to not be uniform like pandemonium chaos kind of thing mechanics. But also, I don't know, this makes me think that if I fly to seven forty seven, I'm going to say it right over that center wing tank.

I always said over the wings because it's the smoothest ride. Yeah, that's another good reason, because it's the full crimb of the point no matter what's going on, and you know, obviously we can just we can only hope that these people were dead well before any of this. Yeah, some of the ones in the actually survived from really hope that the initial explosion was enough to, if nothing else,

render them unconsciously. Yeah, yeah, because otherwise it would be a terrifying ride and then when that big wave of searing heat comes back and you should stop there. Yeah, but I agree, it is a little weird. Knowing that

there is some semblance of a pattern makes me. You know, I initially when I read that was thinking like, okay, so passengers in UM like A, C and E were all burned, but like in B D n F, we're fine, right, And that to me is like, well, that's that's that's that Sherlock episode where it's just a plane full of people who are already dead, Like that's how that happens.

That's the only way that happens. Right. But you know, knowing that it was kind of like in this weird maybe diagonal pattern, that doesn't bother me as much because that I can understand how, you know, things could be traveling like that. And also and also to me, it does not indicate you know, missile versus fuell TEK explosion. It doesn't like you know, it doesn't make anything. It doesn't make me think, you know, Kearis bomb or accident

or whatever. It doesn't change anything really. Well, the other thing that really sticks in in sou Cut and teams craw is the interviews with the witnesses, because we mentioned this before, but the FBI did all the interviews because this was still a criminal investigation at the time, and all that was provided was the FBI investigators notes. It wasn't as if it was a transcript of what was stated, and so therefore it's already a slightly modified version of

the conversation. So they say, well, obviously that's not the entire conversation. And they say that the fact that the NTSB then declined to reinterview these these witnesses because the NTSB said, listen, there's like five I don't know, let's just say five hundred people were interviewed, because that's a ballpark about the right number. There's a lot of people. I'm round figuring it, so round figure, let's just say

five are they want to talk to? But those people have already been talked to once and now a year two three have passed and memory changes, and that's a lot of effort in time to track those people down and re retake their statements and may have changed, and they changed, and as completely as he is from that totally makes sense because also there's been a lot of publicity, which is also good to influence these people's thoughts about

the whole thing. So yeah, it really makes it worthless to go back and reinterview them all this probably should have recorded or think it really was a little too cursed. I you know, that was my initial question when we were first talking about the case, was, you know people

reported they saw missiles. Well, did they report they saw missile after they found out that a plane exploded or did they just on their own think, oh, that looks like a missile, right, Because yeah, I saw something go up in the air and then learned that a plane had exploded, I would think that looks kind of like a missile. But at the time when I saw the initial thing, I might have thought that looks like a crappy firework, Like what's going on? People were thinking that.

And also, let's not forget this was less than two we exact fourth or July. But that's what I mean is like that was my initial question was, And that's that's so indicative of how that can change. There's so much perception. And also, like you said, you know they should have just the So so here's here's where this gets. So this is what I so, this whole part we've been talking about is the multi missiles theory, and this this is the part of where Okay, well, there's two

things about Seal Cutt and the documentary that I don't like. One, it bugs the hell out of me that he hijacked the last fifth ten or fifteen minutes of the documentary to talk about how his mom died when he was a kid. That was weird. But what also bugs me is that they start saying, oh, no, the plane was taken down by multiple missiles. The early documentary that he was featured in says it was two missiles, and then when you go to documentary, they've upped the annie and

they moved it to three missiles. And as far as I can tell, what they're doing is they're basically figuring out where these people were in time and on the coast and then saying, okay, well, these people must have saw this one, and these people must have saw that one, and they've assembled this timeline of three missiles impacting this plane. Almost exactly at the same time, instead of saying that

the witnesses could have been faulty. And it's hard enough sometimes for things to hit a moving object just one of them, you know, there's multiple projected simultaneously, that sets unlikely. But but yeah, and and the thing about it is and and that what they're what they're doing, constructing reconstructing it. That one it makes kind of sense because from the advantaged one of some of the witnesses, well, it looked

like it was coming straight up from the ground. I just said, oh no, it looks like it was coming out about a forty five degree angle from north to south, and other said east to west, west to east. And so you know, you assemble all that together, you get the trajectories of what maybe we're three missiles or uh, maybe a couple of pieces of fireworks. Because again, we Americans, if you don't know this, we like our like we love to send things into the sky, and we like

things that go bluie. Yeah, we like. Yeah, we like our noisy, explosive, dangerous toys and our darks and cats, don't we know. Yeah, And so again to to less than two weeks after forwards of July but there's still some straight rockets out there that people had. Yeah, some

of that stuff going. But here's the funny thing is that I was watching something this was actually today as walking watching and they were saying, well, listen, if this had been like a stinger missile, you know, something a guy launched off his shoulder something like that, or even if it was from a ship. Um actually more of

the stinger missile. It would have taken off and about one or two seconds after it left the barrel that of the launcher, it would have began to burn its few will that makes smoke as it propelled itself upwards. But you would only see that trail of smoke for about seven seconds, and then it would exhaust that fuel and continue on its trajectory unaided, you know, just under its own force. But there will be no trail at that point. So now you got another up to seven

seconds of flight before impact. And yeah, exactly, and these people recording the trailer going all the way up and then going boom. Yeah, the reported and and for like you know, in some cases like thirty seconds. Yeah, and again yeah, all these little all these little manpad type launchers. Yeah, like I said, they have maybe seven or eight seconds of burntime and that's just bam and so, which is what.

So that's one of the things that really really kind of sunk the it was launched from the coast by a person theory. For me. What we have here, though, is we do have believe it or not, we still have remaining theories. We're way into this and we're not bad. They're theories though, like Michael Jacks in Bad, I'm bad, you know, Okay, all right, well so bad. Theory Number one, according to Devon is the meteorite theory. I don't think this is so bad, I think, but she got it

yea for once, you like to joke. I didn't like it. I just got it, okay. So there's absolutely no support for this theory. But what it said is that a bull is it bull eyed or ball eyed? I thought so too, a bull eyed cause the destruction of this plane. And here's how it works is that a meteor comes, you know, just shuttling into our atmosphere, heats up to the point that it explodes into a bunch of little bits like that one that I like, that one that

blew up over Russia several years ago. This stuff happened. It happens every day, it happens all the time on varying scales, and they're saying that what happened is it was it just the right place and time that when it exploded, those that bits of shrapnel that came off of it went into the the aircraft and that's what ignited it, and that's what set the entire explosion off. I would think that if this was the case, for as many airplanes as we have in the sky, this

should have happened more than justice. No, actually, no, actually it's I could see it being a one off thing. Really again, this is a really this if it did happen, would be extremely rare occurrence, extremely rare, and so I could totally The only reason I don't buy this theory entirely, Number one, there's no there's no proof for it, even

though it's plausible as possible. But I think it's very unlikely that if had it happened, that the plane would have only been hit by by one piece of meteorite. That would have been hit by at least several, if not you know, hundreds, Who knows when boys blow up, I don't know how many pieces they actually explode into I think it really depends on the unique one. Yeah,

it totally does, I'm sure. And so you know, it seems unlikely to me that it managed only one piece hit the plane, you know, I mean, Bob breaks into four pieces. Why well, Tommy over there breaks into a hundred. I mean, it really just depends on what kind they are. So it could be that it broke into three. But one of those things just hit it just right. Yeah, but it's unlikely as it is. I mean, sins things happen. If you look at the look at the surfaces of

the Moon. Look at all those meteor impacts on there in a in a system the size of our Solar system and a target as tiny as our moon. It's every single one of those dots on the Moon represents an extremely unlikely occurrence. Yeah, it did happen eventually. Listen. I know nobody's told you this before, but the moon has acne. That's yeah, damn it. Okay, I feels okay anyway, enough, But I like the theory, but you know, yeah, it's in practice. I just I have a really hard time

saying that what's going on? But let's move the last theory in this which is that this was this whole thing was caused by electromagnetic interference. And this one is also kind of tough to follow, and it's all based on high intensity radiated fields UM, which is hi RF

is what you see the acronym all the time. And yeah, if you read this kind of stuff, you see you guys have talked about this with oh god, what's the place that does it doesn't matter or it doesn't matter, but it's basically it's the idea that, yeah, it's microwaves directed energy. So a microwave in your kitchen or office, you know, common area is really on a small scale directing all kinds of high radiation or it's all kinds

of high energy radiation into one very close area. What this is saying is that military vessels are able to act shoot beams of that at targets and disrupt them to a degree that they can disable them. That's well, yes, we can do it in a in a microwave, and maybe we can throw a high energy freak or high RF stuff some distance. To hit a plane at fourteen thou feet is just pretty far out there. And almost nobody tastes this seriously, except for the one person who

brought it to the NTSB. I do not remember her name. It's scary, yeah, Elane Scarier scary, Ok, yeah, but it's Alane Scary. She's the only one who says they can do this. I know that the military can do stuff like this. Don't think it's on that scale, especially in nineties six, I don't. I don't know what they had.

I mean, they've been working on things like directed energy weapons like that that can basically reproducing any MP pulse but directed at like an enemy fighter and fry all of us electronics, all kinds of cool stuff like that. Of course, we've got lasers are now they're not getting ready to start downsizing lasers powerful lasers and put them on planes and stuff. And so we're getting to that point where we're actually gonna have lasers on planes. Wait wait, wait, wait,

fighter jets are going to be going around for real. Well, I think it's going to be more for development, like like like protecting against incoming rockets and things like that. But it's still speakers on the plane to make the noise. They should they should at least for air shows. You know, they should totally install speakers on the plane for air ship. I think what they should do is install speakers, but they're connected to a microphone in like the dudes headset,

so he's just in there. I don't know, I don't I don't know about this story. All right, we've been doing a lot of the late let's do a throwback. Here's something that we don't do very off did preferred theory, I don't have one. That's what I was just saying, is I don't have one. Yeah, my preferred theory is the short and the fuel tank. I think it's the best supported. Yeah, it really is. Uh yeah, because the missile uh, if the military had done in our military,

there would have been an accounting for it. They wouldn't have gotten away with it. If terrorists had done it, they would have taken credit for it. So it's you know, really short, the short really working. Although again even the anti speed does not say they're that that's what caused the expen and and remember they recover of the airplane, not all of it, and people have said, well, you put parts of it the wrong place, so that might not be right. So it's hard to say, but I'm

I'm mostly behind that it was an accident. I will say that I'm not totally opposed to the idea of uh, you know, high explosive kind of shrapnel bomb throwing something, but would have left a lot more puncture. But that's yeah, that's that's the thing is that the other ones, you know,

don't line up with the data for me. So yeah, and then there was there was one subterry on that is that well, maybe one of those one of those excluding shrapnel you know, air interceptor bombs went off, but at one of but well went not far enough away and we're talking to regular bomb just like what we were talking about, but it went around, it went off far enough away that only one chunk of it hit the plane and that happened to punch through the center

wing tank and blow the plane up. And and that's why you don't see all these puncture marks all over the plane. And the NTSP actually actually did consider that theory, and if you read the report they considered, I was actually kind of surprising all of the things, including the report that they considered. Yeah, and they considered it, well, let's face it, it's it's rather unlikely proximity fuses and those things, you know, I mean, uh, maybe a malfunctioning,

proximity fuse and everything. I don't know, it's just a confluence of things. I'm very un likely things number one, the terrorists who have happens to have one and doesn't feel like taking credit for the whole thing. And this thing just happens to be defective and goes off way too far away from the aircraft it's supposed to be taken down. It's a lot of things. It's hard to buy, all right, yeah, all right, Well, so let's let's finish up here. We got, you know, a little bit of

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Honkah or whatever holiday that you prefer to celebrate. Congrats. And it's almost a New Year, so yay New Year crash, and I hope you're not traveling. Sorry, everyone want to travel by the ultra safe high speech right, Yeah, all right, we'll get me a pack by shoot and get out of here. We will talk to you guys later. By guys to