Thinking Sideways: TSP Live-Clarence Roberts

as a live taping. So we're going to do our normal intro, and you guys can make as much or as little noise as you want. He's ready, Okay, Thinking Sideways, I'll look at that. I don't know stories of things. We simply don't know of the answa too. Hey there, welcome to a very special episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I am Devin, joined as usual by Steve and Joe, and we're going to talk about a mystery. And we're joined us, so I should say by a live studio audience. Guys,

say hi, it's a group of very loud five loud. Okay, let's do that again. I say hi ya whatever, It's cool that was a good round of applause. Appreciate that. We're going to talk about a mystery. It's a local mystery. Well it's well, it took place in Indiana, so it's local Brown County. Anybody here from Brown County? Good? Okay, kind of south to here. We're going to talk about the case of Clarence Roberts's death. Is anybody familiar with that case? The death of Clarence Roberts. You guys haven't

heard about Clarence treat Joe. Why don't you tell them a little bit about Clarence Roppers. Let me give you it says Joe Shatner style, my shatting. Your invitation kind of sucks, So I'm just gonna read it. Uh. So earlier the hours of October v a shed uh which is being used as a garage on the Robert's property in Brown County caught fire uh and volunteer firefighters came by and tried to put it out. They haven't yet, no,

not yet, not in this not around here. But the only thing they were able to say was the Clarence's pickup truck. He had a pickup truck parked down there. They wheeled that out and saved it, but didn't say Clarence who perished in the fire along with two other cars. But then the next day, after things are cooled down a little bit, they were coming through the ashes and they found an interesting surprise which was a burned limbless

body of a man apparently Clarence Roberts. And the body was laying on his back, had a ship that sixteen gage shotgun laying across its chest. Um. But investigators were also stiffing through the ash and they found a Masonic ring buried in the ash not far from the body, completely undamaged, not completely, but pretty much undamaged. And Claire and of course was a Mason. He was like a thirty three d gird degree like talk to our experts about this, Yeah, but it was. It was in pretty

good shape for having been through a fire. Clarence Roberts was a local businessman. Uh. He and his brother owned a small local chain of hardware feed stores called, I think the Roberts Lumber Company, so obviously sold little rumber Lumber two. They were pretty well to do. They had four children, all boys, and you know, a nice house and a lot of nice luxury cars and also Clarence had several life insurance policies, which was lucky for his

family that he died. And so it's time to collect the life insurance right and this is like, you know, valued at like more than a million bucks. This is nineteen seventy, so like six million now, yeah, in a billion or something like that. So all they had to do was collect that money. But there was a hitch, There was a fly in the ointment. Yeah, they didn't didn't quite get that. So tragedy would hit the family again ten years later when another fire would destroy a

shock that was wasn't owned by the Roberts family. I was down in Camp Roberts. Anybody here heard about Camp Roberts, southeast about three miles southeast of Nashville, Indiana, a little place that's mostly owned by the Roberts family apparently, and as the family and if the shack was owned by her nephew, I knew somebody in the family owned. She was staying there rent for you. So robertson sho another Robert another one burns down. This time, however, there are

two bodies. Well that was loud. Uh. The first body was identified as Geneva Roberts Clarence's wife, and the second body was identified as that of Clarence Roberts. Don. Hi, Hi, I didn't know we had we had service up here. This is awesome. And use their water instead of my water. Okay, all right, good. You guys wanted an unedited show, right, Yes, we're asking us all the time, so this is what

you get. Um. So, as we said, they you know, this this life insurance policy they had tried to collect the family had, but the insurance company had decided that there were some things wrong that made them not believe that it was gonna be Claire actually be Clarence's body, So Geneva didn't get any of the money, so she was left essentially penniless at that point. Uh, they you know,

had to sell the family home. The cars were repossessed or I think the brothers that owned them actually took them back for some of those cars and one of them was taken back by his creditors. I talked to a lawyer who knew the knew the Roberts and there was he told me this story about they were in court and Clarence was being confronted by one of his creditors and the creditors. Lawyer says, Clarence, how did you

get here today? And Clarence said, I drove And the lawyer turned to the judge and said, your honor, we want that car. And so the judge made Clarence hand over the keys to his Cadillac right there in court. That's how That's how deep in Clarence was living beyond his means, way beyond his means, and Uber wasn't a thing yet. Yeah, and home was not fun humiliating moment

for poor Clarence Roberts. Yes, well, and especially for Geneva because she and the family have been trying to collect on the insurance for now ten years and hadn't got it um. So at this point she has to take a job. She is working at the Howard Johnson's. I believe she's working in the kitchen, washing dishes, are baking pies. I've heard that story too. Okay, Her her children abandoned her, the entire family shunned her. So she was on her

own at that point. So we're going to play this one a little fast and loose, uh, And we're going to try to add to the story as we talk about theories that doesn't mean, we're going to mix stuff up, but maybe we wouldn't do that. Uh So, I'm just gonna you know, I'm hosting, so we've got some bullet points here. I'm gonna go ahead and just talk about the high level of what the theories might be, and then we're going to get into it. Sound good, sounds good.

So we need to talk about Clarence. We need to talk about if he died in the first fire or the second fire. There are people out there, by the way who still believed Clarence did die in the first fire. We need to talk about Clarence and if he set the first fire or the second fire or neither or both. And we need to talk about if he didn't die in the first fire, where did he go? And then we need to talk about Geneva because it seems like she should have known about this, right you would think,

but maybe not. So let's talk about this sweet first theory would be Clarence died in the first fire. Yeah, this does not have a lot of subscribers. Well, there's there's a really, really good reason. I don't know if we had talked about the fact that when the body was found, we had said that you know, there was no limbs. It's believed that those were burned off. I know, Joe through your conversations with was it the prosecutor? Yeah, yeah, I gotta I was. Actually was lucky enough to track

down a guy named James T. Roberts. He says he's no relation to Clarence, but he was. He was the county prosecutor and I've seen seventy when this happened. He told me. There's stories on the internet that somebody actually chopped off the arms and legs from the body and then put it in the barn and set the fire. But you will see where it says there's like woo or marks on the bones. Apparently, apparently that's not true, according to somebody who was there. And he claims to

know everything there is to know about this case. Well, he was the prosecutor. Yeah, he should know everything. Yeah, but the thing about the body is, yeah, it's got no arms and legs, so theoretically the fire is so intense that it would have burned them off. There was also talk of a shotgun being found near the body, so it's believed Okay, he set the fire maybe, but he also must have tried to commit suicide by using the weapon on himself. But there was a problem. There

was no gunshot wound in the body. There's an issue. Come on, dude, that corner Yeah yeah, yeah, so uh, I guess I really just don't understand even how it plays out that he died in the first fire. Yeah, I guess you would have to say that is Clarence back to the truck up into the barn, lights the barn on fire with the attempt of then he's gonna use the gun on himself. I mean this, this whole series of events. Did that make any sense to anybody else,

because it doesn't to me. And the right it was undamaged. If the fire was hot enough to burn his limbs off, that was a ring on the finger should be damaged. Right. And then the corner actually did an autopsy, believe it or not, and they found out that the body had a huge level of or not CEO carbon monoxide and in the bloodstream enough to be fatal. Uh. And yet no evidence of inn a smoke innolation at all, as long as we're all clean and pink. So that was

a little bit suspicious. M hmm. Let's see what else flood type there was a blood type, Yeah, I did it. That didn't match. And then they found one tooth and that didn't really match Clarence either. It was also, wasn't it missing a kidney? Or I heard that in one place. I'm not going to totally swear by that one. I supposedly the body was missing a kidney and Clarence had both his kidneys. Yeah. Yeah, So if it wasn't Clarence's body dead in the barn, yeah, do you want to

talk about the vagrant? I can talk about the vagrant, talk about the talking about vagrance all the time. So there was there. There's two versions of this story. But it is said that Clarence met a vagrant, uh town away, right, Joe. It was not. It was not actually in the town

he lived out. Clarence would not be that dumb. He was still dumb, but he didn't quite Okay, So there is a vagrant, and either Clarence met him in a bar and poured so much liquor into him that that when they walked out, the guy started falling down and Clarence said, I'm going to take him to get help. Or the other version of the story is that Clarence met this vagrant. He collapsed on the street, having some sort of medical condition, and Clarence says, I'll get my car,

I'll take him to a doctor. There's no record of Clarence ever showing up in front of any doctor with this man. So there's there's the big red first Bred flag about the vagrant. The vagrant, also, by the way, was, according to witness, has had a brown plaid shirt on. And then it turns out that the why is the brown shirt important? The brown shirts important? Why is that important?

Why is that? Well? I will tell you why the body was even though it was badly burned, it was laying against the laying against the pavement and or the dirt. I don't actually don't know. Was that a dirt floor they paid floor, I don't care. We'll just assume it was something or the other. But yeah, apparently you got enough heat protection that a fragment of the shirt actually

survived the fire. Turns out it was brown plaid. Clarence's cousin that stopped by to visit him, like about fifteen minutes before the fire actually broke out, and he said that Clarence was wearing a blue shirt, not a brown plaid shirt. So well that that looked a little funny to the authorities and so people, even though Clarence's family was swearing and actually one pathologist was pretty sure it was Clarence also, but that that maybe seems really wrong.

Well it does, because I mean, after all, I mean, how do you gas yourself and then start a fire? I mean, how do you do that? Exactly? I don't know, because he should have because the body should have sucumbed totally to innate smoke, innilation or excuse me, c O two carbon monoxide. You know, people are making me new or just close your eyes. Everybody looked that way. Okay, so we're pretty sure that Clarence did not die in that first fire, right, Yeah, everybody's pretty sure except for

a few people. Like I said, his sons, uh still contend, at least most of his sons and his family. They have a grave actually, I think with the original corpse buried in it and marked with marked Clarence Roberts. Yeah, well there's six million dollars lighter since it wasn't, well not lighter. But you know they're not okay, they're not. They're not six million dollars heavier. They would have preferred.

Do you think Geneva knew that it wasn't Clarence. You know, I think she was in on it from the beginning. You know, I was kind of thinking it was Geneva, although when I talked to James Roberts about it again, he was the one, more than me and more than the Internet who actually knew these two. Uh, and he's she was actually very sure that Geneva was not involved in any of this scheme because at least in the beginning, at some point, of course, it appears that Clarence did

come back to town. He he actually abscounted with a paramount of cash, and uh, some point he must have run out of money, is the thinking, and he came back to Geneva, she let she took him back in. And at that point, of course, she becomes complicit because I didn't mention that there was a grand jury in that indicted Clarence on charges of kidnapping and murder for the murder of this vagrant, and so he wasn't wanted man. Police were actually local police were looking for They were

staking out Geneva's home from time to time. So at that point she became complicit. But he's very sure that she was not actually part of the conspiracy, So Clarence would have then placed the ring himself. Probably Clarence put it in there himself, came back after the fire was done and after the volunteer firefighters left for the night. Yeah, you know, that's Clarence may not have been as smart

as he thought he was. Maybe. And one of the things that that screwed Clarence up is that he had a pickup truck, as I mentioned that the firefighters saved, and he rigged it up as kind of a rolling gas chamber. He plugged the fire of the tailpipe, and he had taken what appeared to be a hammer and a punch and punched a bunch of holes in the tailpipe, and the firefighters saved the truck from the fire. It

was actually inside there. It should have been consumed by the fire, but these fire firefighters show up and they roll the truck out of there and save it. Later on, somebody discovered that a lot of a lot of carbon monoxide was leaking into the cab of the truck. Uh, And so that's when they looked at the tailpipe and discovered it had been punctured all over the place. I think Clarence probably intended for the truck to be consumed in the flames of the fire, but that didn't happen.

So you gotta ask yourself, what do you Why do you have a little rolling gas chamber. He didn't need it to gas himself inside a closed garage, obviously, Why do you have something like that, like gas vagrant? Maybe, yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. That's some other people are thinking about. It's kind of funny that the volunteer firefighters screwed up his plan because obviously, yeah, I know, that's pretty hilarious actually when he's okay. So that's theory

number one done. Theory number two would be Clarence set and died in the second fire with Geneva Um. I mean, the the story here, right is that a few years after Geneva moved into the shock, neighbors started talking about a strange man a lurking around Um and Geneva, who was diabetic and did not drink though she wasn't supposed

to drink. Well, she didn't, but then you know, her husband died or ran off or something, and she had a good reason, had some good reasons to but she was reportedly purchasing a lot of beer and liquor and bringing it back to the house. Um, so it's possible that, you know, Clarence, as mentioned, came back and that was

Clarence that was lurking about. Um right, yeah, But the important thing to know about the lurker is nobody could say that was Clarence because this guy he had a really really good habit of knowing when somebody was looking at him. Just one of those people you know you get the hairs on the back of your your next stand up. Apparently he had spiky sense, super good, and so somebody would be there and he would immediately he'd realize you were there. He would turn and start walking away.

So if they were on one side of the house, he would put himself on the other side of the building. So nobody ever really got a good view of him. They never could say he was pretty distinctive looking. Clarence is actually not a bad looking guy. That's not Clarence. Who's that? That's Clarence. Okay, there you go. A thought Clarence had darker hair. He was Okay, so his hair kind of went gray, alright, that happens, of course, I could have been some guy with of facial deformity he

was shy about it, or maybe some agoraphobia. It wasn't. The police were sticking out Geneva's house. Apparently this is a huge story in Brown County. I think people swung by just to just to check on Geneva themselves, just to laugh at her some yeah, just to see check out the rumors, see if they spotted clearance in the front yard or something like that. So Geneva wind up nailing her front door shut, So she came and went

by the back door just to avoid people look watching her. Uh, and which proved to be kind of maybe sort of fatal for her in the end, because you know, they had that second fire, they did, and they couldn't escape by the front door. Yeah, it's the problem with nailing things shut. The kind of is get back out. So

again the question though, is who set that second fire. Well, we really somebody did, apparently because somebody used an accelerant, probably like I don't know what gas, something like that, yeah or something. According to James Roberts, the prosecutor, he said somebody set that fire. He said it was definitely not an accident. Yeah, and it's a weird It was a weird fire because the bodies of apparently the Roberts's

were found in the bedroom. Right. No, actually she was on a cot in the living room and he was. They were sap they were sleeping apart. They were sleeping apart anyway, they're wrong. Um. And they died of smoke inhalation. Correct, Yeah, they didn't get their lumps right off this time. But the trail of accelerant led to the back door. So it would be kind of weird to me that somebody would set a fire in their own house with the intention of killing themselves or whatever and lead it from

the back door. Why would you do that? Why wouldn't you just soak the room you're in? Well, you know, the the only thing that I can think of, and this is this is Clarence's plan went wrong. If we're saying that Clarence is the one who set this fire, the only way that I can see that working is if Clarence did indeed walk into the shack. He's pouring accelerant as he's walking in. He then you know, he says goodbye to Geneva in whatever his you know, I

love you by I'm leaving again. Scenario is and lights it not realizing how fast a fire in a shack with accelrat is going to run, and therefore he trapped himself. It seems like he should know because he did that once before. Yeah. Well, I mean he did a whole lot of thing if he did it. There's a whole lot of things in that first fire that didn't seem to add up, like you know, the shotgun and not

shooting the guy in the rolling gas chamber. I mean, none of this seems like it's a really well formulated plays. Not if it was two of them. And there's been speculation about murder, suicide or suicide that kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, what if they committed suicide, Why would you like set a fire and kill yourself that way? Are there any arts in the sere? You guys have a point of view on this. I never tried to kill

yourself with fire. We'll have a couple of minutes at the end for audience participation if you guys want to throw any series and special special preference. If you think O J did it, you got to come to the front of the line. You can step. But there there is the issue of the alcohol levels in both of the bodies. They had a lot of booze in them. They both had a lot of bo was Devin do remember it was point three for Clarence Clarence and point

to for Geneva. Correct, Yeah, that sounds right I written down somewhere, But we're not on at all. That's an exceptionally high level of alcohol to have in your system, which is why I'm thinking. That's why I wondered if you know whoever said it completely bungled it? Has anybody anybody here ever been busted for d u I and had a breathalyzer? Has anybody ever blown point three? Anybody? I'll think that as a no. Okay, yeah, I had no idea what point three does to you if you're

even conscious? Said well, and especially, I mean I know that you wanted to say that. You know, maybe since Geneva had less alcohol in her system, maybe she did it. But she wasn't a drinker, probably not a heavy dank so I don't think she would have been able to even do that. Probably not. Well, that could explain how sloppy the whole thing was. Well, but if Clarence is the one who's if if it was Clarence, it's the lurker and she is bringing home all this booze for him.

He may have had an exceptionally high tolerance. I mean, guys who sit around and knew nothing but drink all day, every day for an extended period of time, their tolerance is high. And he was. He was a fugitive from the law. So when you're a fugitive, what do you do sit around and drink? You drink, you know, Yeah, I don't know what else you would do. Uh yeah, I think that's probably all you do. Yeah, okay, So, I mean I think that's most likely. But there's a

lot of other theories out here. What if that lurker wasn't Clarence. M hmmm, So who was it? A boyfriend who was jealous about Clarence Beam or what if like Clarence came back and was like, what boyfriend, You're supposed to wait for me? You thought I was dead? But makes sense, and then killed them both by a fire. Clarence killed them both. Yeahs, a boyfriend killed Clarence in her No, Clarence killed them both. Clarence killed them. Oh, I see, So Clarence wasn't killed on the are Yeah,

either fire. That's either fire. Yeah, Clarence is still out there, so yeah, well that's there's always that possibility. Yeah, according to what I have heard, they used X rays because apparently Clarence had been had been to a couple of different hospitals a few times, and so there were bone x rays out there of Clarence, and they compared the bones in the body to his X rays from those

stays and they matched. And the dentists looked at the dental records, uh of Clarence plus the corpse in those match. So it's a pretty definitive identification. I think you're ruining this episode. I kind of record the theory, sorry episode about that. Well, I mean, you know I should say this. I mean, the police had been struggling with this case

for a long time. They obviously really wanted to get Clarence, and so you can see there might have been a little incentive there to sort of fudge things a little bit and close the case. So, even though I don't really think that's what having a police conspiracy exactly, so there is always that possibility. I don't really subscribe to it, but it seems like why though they wanted to close the case. It looks better, but it wasn't it kind of closed? No, No, it was still up in case.

They were still staking at Geneva's house from time to time. He's wanted, man, okay, I think it might have been a third party myself. Who Well, that's a good question. You wanna talk about third party first? You want to Geneva. Yeah, that's true. You want to throw that one. What if it was Geneva? Well, yeah, I'm you're the leader on this one. But okay, all right, added this. Okay, okay, let's let's do this real quick. Like. So there was there was this big two do with the insurance companies

about the life insurance policies. The insurance companies didn't want to pay because they weren't convinced that Clarence had died in that first far surprised. Yeah, so this one on for a long time. After seven years, they wanted to get him declared legally dead and then, but they were having a bit of trouble with that because nobody believed at that point in time there was actually Clarence who

had died. Uh. So they took them, She took the courts, she took the insurance companies to court and the case was finally decided I don't remember when, like in nineteen seventy nine, something like that, and then they took it to the Indian the Indiana Court of Appeals October about mid October nineteen eighty, about a month before the second fire October oct Okay, they handed down they're ruling, which as they appealed the lower courts ruling, and then uh,

it was appealed again to the court to for re hearing like an on bank hearing. If you guys know what that means. On bank what does that mean? It means we're usually courts of Appeals usually have they will typically have three judge panels deciding a case, and then if somebody wants to appeal that, they can appeal for an on blank thing, which means that the entire panel of judges on the court here's the entire thing. So they appealed for that and November twenty four, nineteen eighty, Uh,

the appeal for a re hearing was turned down. So that's five days five days before that second fire. So my theory is that somebody was extremely disappointed with that court ruling. It could have been Geneva. I mean, Geneva, after all, have been suffering for ten years. Uh, and that was her you know light at the end of the tunnel, and when that was snuffed out, well, she might have lost it and decided, well, I'm killing myself

and taking Clarence with me because it's all his fault. Yeah, well it kind of was all his fault, yeah yeah, yeah. Or there's a there's somebody else maybe who was disappointed. I mean Clarence, you know, I kind of like to livey on his means, as I said, just kind of a little bit. Yeah, he was not the most responsible human being out there. Uh, he might have had a credit or to maybe somebody who was like, you know, one of these guys that was lenders that kind of

skirt the edges of the law a little bit. The guy was kept coming around, suggesting that maybe it was going to break his kneecaps, and Clarence kept saying, hey, no, no, no no, we're gonna collect all this money from the insurance company. And then when that possibility it was finally shut off off, the loan shark comes around and it's not only you've been shining me on for like years, dude, I'm gonna kill you, and so maybe that's what happened.

So you're saying it was murder. I'm thinking it was murder. Saying it's murder, and you're not saying it was Chippy. Yeah, I did the murder. Well, you never know, it could have been Chippy. I'm actually wearing a Chippy T shirt. By the way, it's available for sale, SUFFU And so I don't know. Of course, we wanted to leave a little bit of time open for the audience because I know you guys have probably got all kinds of series of your own. You guys ready to Did you want

to talk about it being an accident? Did we talk about it being an accident? Yeah, you know, no, thank you. I originally thought there was that possibility. After I chalked to talk to John Roberts about it, he was pretty definitive that it was not an accident. It was deliberately set. But let's talk about it anyway. I mean, they were drunk.

Maybe you're really hammered and you decided you could have put on a little green tea or something like that, and then if you get you pass out, if you get about to forget about the burd you left on I mean, yeah, although you know, accelerant, and then on your way back to her, you're you're caught in the

living room note to pass out. You trip over that can of gas you keep by the door in case of emergencies, pick it up upside down, and just trailing behind you somehow, I kind of thick and yeah maybe maybe, Yeah, I don't. I don't like it. Do you like it? Yeah? No, I mean, the the only other suspect that we haven't talked about, if indeed it wasn't Clarence Origin even that did, it would be one of their children. Yeah, because you're a pretty good reason. I mean, you want to think

about it. Your dad tried disappeared and apparently tried to defraud the insurance company, and he in a way has smeared the family name. I mean, they were not happy to the point that they disowned their mother. So they must have been carrying some sort of baggage. Yeah, but she didn't have a life insurance policy or anything, but they may have believed that she was in on it, and they kill her because they were mad at her. Yeah. Well, no,

so they disodor because they're mad at her. And then one of them catches wind that clearance is back and you know, through whatever process, and so they go over and maybe it's a scenario where they walk in and they so, yeah, that's that's him, and they're here and you know, I don't know what ensues from there, and then actually maybe somebody drops a cigarette. I mean, so

butter fingers, I mean, I'm actually just thinking about this. Um, what if uh, you know, the appeal had just been revoked, right, so they said, no, he didn't dine in the first fire, definitively, and so what if a kid thought, oh, well, the insurance will pay out if he dies in a different fire and we know it's him and we can prove it's him. That would be pretty stupid, because I'm not I'm saying that. I'm saying that kid is stupid, right, Okay, No,

it's okay, you're saying I'm stupid. And no, no, no, I'm not saying you're not stupid. Some of your theories are I'm yeah, that was a smart person smart it's fine. Uh yeah, I don't know. I maybe they're dumb, but that means kind of ran in the family. Well, yeah, that's true. There are some there are some raging dumbness houses. Uh, well, there is that possibility that they were mad at their dads about the whole thing. They were very disappointed they

decided to go burn the house down. But there's also another person who might have been motivated, which is, like, you know, a family of the vagrant that was killed, although whoever it was was never identified, nobody ever figured out who it was. Might just be as the family knew who it was and kept their mouth shut, and then when they got their chance for a little vengeance, they came and took it. But we don't know if

the vagrant was local. Yeah, I mean that's that's the hard part with that is he may have been traveling around. What was the phrase before? Yeah, aut setting one yet that's what I'm aspired to be someday, yeah, rambling man? No, jet setting? Oh aren't you already? I don't know. I mean the people that are vagrants and take up residence in small towns. I don't think they like jet in from New York City to take up residence in Nashville, Indiana.

But sorry, everybody who's from now waiting? Okay? Wait? No? Sorry? Yeah, And well I guess that's about it is. I think, guess I think that I don't know why they both died in the second fire. I think I don't have a resolution to that. But definitely Clarence did not die in the first fire. Definitely he died in the second fire, looks like, but I don't I still am not satisfied

as to the reason why. What about you? So, I think I think we're all in agreement on the fact that it was Clarence in the second fire, not in the first. But I still think that it had had to have been one of the two set the fire, I accident or on purpose? You know what their track record, I really don't know. I mean, the problem is is that it's it's so easy to say that it's some unknown outside third party part of some giant conspiracy against

the Roberts family. It just seems too easy. Was Clarence a smoker? Everybody it was the seventies and eighties. Maybe he accidentally, I don't know, dropped a bunch of accelerant and then went out to smoke and accidentally flicked it in the house and he was like, oh no, I love Geneva and was like, yeah, they're stuck in here. I like that yeah, and then he died tragically a hero. It's the perfect theory. That's such a good point. I'm

gonna go with that one. It's well, actually, I kind of you know, I've already talked about there were people who disappointed by the outcome of the court hearing, and I think that there might have been a credit or two back there who maybe who knows, I mean, you know, he usually does break kneecaps, though, what why like murder? Well, they're never going to get their money him. Well let's let's let's not forget that. I mean, we don't know the circumstances, but he could have vote somebody a bunch

of money. It could have led to this person's financial ruin that they were left holding the bag, or at least a lot of hardship. And of course everybody knew by this point that Clarence was a murderer, and so they probably figured, well, I hate his guts, he wrecked my business or whatever, and also either murder, why not go burn him out? Hey? You know, so it could

have been somebody like that. So the other thing about, you know, don't kill him because you won't get your money, ye is there are people that are made an example of. So let's just do you think Nashville is such a hot bed for they had to you know, if this guy liked to spend money as much as it seems that he did, he may have been into for really deep and to such a agree that it was worth it to cut their losses in order to make sure everybody else who ever borrowed from them again paid up. Okay,

So does anybody in the audience have theories? Yeah, let's hear some series O J first. Anybody no? No? Yeah, I see a hand? What's that? Russian hackers? I like that? Ma sense that's a good theory. Why you want to get out? I don't think the Grand Mason's that listen to us are gonna be really happy with that theory. They're already there already. Yeah, yeah, I like I'm liking thee I see a hand, Oh, chupro we got that any murder or what it was? A murder accident, accident

more blood chupy is not that incompetent. They were just having a raucous party, throwing liquor everyone. I mean it could be basically the equivalent of grain alcohol, you know, I mean, really, really, really potent stuff. That would explain, that would actually explain. That's a good that's a good point. That would explain the blood up. Maybe they had a fight there throwing liquor bottles of one another and and there, and it could have just knocked over actually, yea worst

water balloon fight ever. If there was a slant on the foundation could have been on a slant and just and then clarencelicked the cigarette and he was a hero and it was it's perfect. Yeah, I see a hand. Yeah you know that m m yeah cigarette a total accident. Yeah, we we don't know how many fires that they were actually investigating in that area too. Probably they've had two fires and ten years and the same guy at both of them, but not a suspicious Yeah, it could have

been a guy who didn't know what he's doing. It just said, it's true. He said that he first fire. He was muh yeah true. Yeah, maybe yeah, he thought he had more time than he actually did have. Yeah, yeah, okay. And for our listeners out there, he couldn't to hear her talk as he was saying that the gastling could have put out a lot more fumes, and then he realized and he misjudged that. Okay, good, Yes, that's the last one we were waiting for. This is the reason

you don't drink till you get to point two or three. Yeah, o J spontaneously combusted. It's perfect, all right, and now and now we get down to the actual topic of this podcast. So time to start spon the thinking sideways. We're going to talk about it. Oh, our intern has a theory they were hammering. One would assume they weren't just drunk. I think so maybe, uh huh. Thank you

for recapping our theories. That was very helpful. So if it's if it's murder suicide, or you say, then that the reason that his blood alcohol content was so high was so that he was so blasted he wouldn't feel anything. Is that? Would that be the reason that he did that bravery? Look? Okay, yeah, it could have been too. He was just like, you know, flicking that match and then pass us out at the very moment that you know, the fire goes up. Just ye, he's doing that zippo

trek from uh four rooms. It's trying to turn it on a number of times. Or I saw a hand back there somewhere aliens Oh al so they landed like a hundred thousand alien Drachmas, and he just wasn't. Yeah, I'm like, in the aliens, that's good and it would explain why they die. I mean, maybe they were trying to kneecap them and they were like, we don't understand how your weird physiology works. I thought it was a hammer, but it was a big lighter Yeah, series out there.

Any general questions we have, like, uh, I don't know, we probably have to read for a little bit longer. We're important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, that's not where we found it. I wasn't watching it on the couch at home it was. But I talked to a local journalist in Brown County and apparently it's a huge story in Brown County. So yeah, and by the way, that's not

that far as out there here. If you guys all want to take a Johnt down there and just walking a local store gas station and ask him about it, I'm sure you'll find people that will talk to you about it. That reporting. Everybody has a theory. Joe was going to take an uber down there last night, but that didn't panic. Well, I was trying to talk these guys into going down there, and then then you could

say you've been in Nashville. But then you wanted to break in and get the records, and then we wouldn't be here. Yeah, I'm sure the records are probably in

a basement somewhere, if they haven't been burned already. Uh. By the speaking of the records, that's something I forgot to mention is that in the early eighties, uh, Clarence, his son Forrest Roberts, was there was some suspicion, of course, that some of his sons may have been involved in this conspiracy, and so he was drug before a grand jury I think this was two, and given legal immunity and forced to testify. So you can always you can always claim the Fifth Amendment the end. But if you

got immunity, well you can't plead the Fifth Amendment. So he was forced to tell what he knew. And but the deliberations of the grand jury are of course always secret, so nobody knows what exactly he said, but no indictments were handed down. And my attorney, buddy, James T. Roberts, seemed to find this kind of significant. Yeah we're buddies, um, but he's seemed to find this significant in terms of resolving the question of did the children have anything to

do with it or not? And he seemed to think not and they probably didn't. Well, and you were talking about this when we were chatting about this before, Joe, is that for that immunity If he had gone in and said he didn't know anything, and then after the fact it was found out that Clarence was alive or that he was involved in some way, then his immunity is is no longer valid. Yeah. You have to tell the truth, yeah, fell truth and nothing but that. You

gotta do that. No partial truths. So I don't think that the children they might have, but I kind of doubt it. I mean I I who the hell knows, because it's kind of a dysfunctional family. Definitely, Roberts was Clarens. Roberts was an upstanding citizen. Re turned out to not be so upstanding. After all, it happens from time to time. But yeah, how is it? What? Well? Two of us flew Oh in Seattle. I took us three tries to hit the to hit the ground finally in Seattle. Yeah.

So when we left Portland, it was rainy, it was cloudy, It wasn't all that nice. Anybody doesn't know, by the way, we're from Portland, Oregon, and it we didn't. You know, we knew the weather was gonna be nice out here, so I presume no big deal. The city of Seattle, where our first can I was, was completely sucked in to the point that we are making our descent. We can see the ground sort of maybe, and okay, lean back,

we're gonna land. And then the pilot pushed the throttle for and we lifted off again and he said, sorry, folks, it's too foggy. We can't land. I couldn't see actually, but he said, I'm gonna. I'm gonna I have to come back around. I'll make another approach. So we did the whole circling thing again and we come down. We can kind of see the ground from my window. Everything's great, and again he hits up. We go and he circles and he says, I'm sorry, folks, again, I couldn't see

the ground. We're gonna make a third try, and just so you know, if we can't land, we'll have to take you back to Portland. And I was panicking because I could not imagine the number of connections I was going to have to make actually in order to get here. I kind of wanted to turn around and go back to Portland right about then, because I had this picture of my mind of this pilot there, I'm gonna get around the ground no matter what, and so I was

kind of wanting to just go back to Portland. But I guess it was poor planning on our part to have you guys both on the same plane. Probably, Yeah, yeah, I won't do it again. Yeah, No, we got all fly separate flights, now I know. But in Devin, mean, while I was in the car somewhere in the Midwest, I don't know where she was. I don't know where I was either. Yeah, I don't know where I've been. She was blindfold Yeah, we put a hood on. Yeah, but we got we got on the ground and everybody

was happy. And I congratulated the pilot on his good landing because yeah, he did get us down on one piece and yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, but then we got another flight from Seattle to here and that actually didn't crash either. Uh, so we're here. Yeah, it's it's a good food was expensive. There's a question, the question where back there we have? Yeah, all selfies, all the time. Yes, well, actually we're going to issue a lot of takedown requests,

get rid of them and finish this question. That's the problem too, is that whenever I post her a picture, I was come out looking stupid, and there's got to be all these pictures of me looking kind of stupid and not really but he didn't finish this question. Okay, completely, it's weird. That's that's the thing, is a little bit. Yeah, no, nobody really knows um, and so we'll find out. I'm sure it won't be that bad. I've seen us. We're pretty disappointing, you know, so we're expecting it's a lot

of fanfare. Yeah, no, it's okay, it's weird. Yeah, it is interesting it Joe usually says like, let me start that over again, like five times. The magic of betting. You gotta understand this is this is obviously not how we record. We usually record in a small room facing each other, so it's very strange to have to do this back and forth. Yeah, we don't have any cats in here, Any cats in here? Okay? Yeah, I really did expect somebody start using a litter box. Made it

feel like we were at home. Actually, I've got one right down here, but since coming very handy. Uh But but to answer your question, uh yeah, we'll see how it all pants out. You know that the internet's a crazy place. You know. The thing if you guys, I don't know if you guys like read the interview that we did, we that I did with the crime con informant um, but really the we kind of hit a point where it was just not feasible to keep hiding.

Right We're doing this for four years, which is insane um, and we just really realized that you guys are fucking awesome what and you are going to be amazing and supportive as you have. But I mean, you know, we've been kind of looking at social and seeing the responses and everybody's been amazing, and we just really wanted to come meet you guys. And at that point it just wasn't worth hiding anymore because it just seemed too cool to get the chance to meet you guys. That's yeah,

that's it. By the way, when I said that we're worried about all the psychos, I didn't meet any of you guys. You guys are cool. Just the crazies on Facebook. We're going to be like Oh my god, who the person? I think most of our friends now, I had one. I started a new job recently and I had a

somebody was like, do you do a podcast? And I was like, yeah, I have one person at the office that knows, and I am curious to see what happens because it's a big company and I'm just God, don't, don't, don't call me out in the middle of the chilant made please. Oh you're the one who does all those murder things. Yea cool, that's what I keep finding on that you don't print at work. I have lots of friends and family that no, but none of them listen.

Although actually, uh, my nieces listened. So by the way, high high low low Hi, Rachel, Hi, Charlotte. Yeah, actually my boyfriend is here, and he this is the very first time he's ever heard anything related to the podcast ever man and Steve's married. His wife won't listen to us either. Enough of me, yeah, yeah, any other questions, yeah, yeah, sorry, yes, yes,

a German accent. Yeah, my German accent sucks. But I did have actually, like I'm about a quarter German, and so I did have like, you know, ancestors who spoke German, and I actually took a year of German, but my German accent still really blows. I took other foreign languages too, so it's really sad. When I try to do an accent on one in one language, it comes out like something like Italian, and my and then my Spanish accent

sounds like German, and then yeah, it's just pathetic. As far as the firearms, saying, well, we live in Oregon, which is kind of the wild West, and so everybody has guns out there, so I can learn a little bit about it. About that, that whole topic, I wouldn't consider myself an expert. There wasn't yeah answer answer, Oh god, no, I hate this questions on that. I yeah, I mean it might be that. I think the thing about mysteries

is that I'm only interested when they're unsolved. Um, because like that Lori Erica rough case got sold recently and I was like, well, dang it, that's so boring know that episode. That episode is still out there too, so people can go to our back catalog and listen to that and they can eat morons every Christ's eggs. I mean, it's like the Facebook. You can react to comments now, but no I mean I think for me, I'm I

don't have a case that I want solved. I mean, I have cases I want solved for the people involved, but on a personal level, it's more interesting if they're not solved. So they are I do well. If I were to get I would probably get Choppy to tell me you know who dB Cooper was, and then I would murder Tchoopy and take credit because yeah, I I really want to solve that case myself. I I mean, I'll take Choopy solving it, but I prefer to do it myself. Yeah, yeah, I think I would want to

if I could get the answer from Choopy. I'd want to know about its best buddy, which is Bigfoot. And I want to know the truth. Not because I like Bigfoot, but because I'm tired of the TV show and I really just like, let's let's put it to bed. It's a guy in a monkey suit, or it's the real thing, Like, let's just for you because you also hate those ghost shows. Well, you're gonna open a can of worms. Okay, I mean, did we want to make this my therapy session? Because

I got one more question and then we're out of time. Quickly, I was collective. It was I think it was a little bit more Steve, because Steve has always wanted to do something that would go like kind of viral on the internet, and so but I stayed off of YouTube. Yeah, he didn't do YouTube, but you did a couple of websites that were kind of did We're kind of like, you know, you didn't. Yeah, they were fun, but they didn't really take off. But then he thought we should

do a one of those podcast things. Yeah, we're super smart, exactly millions of people will listen to us, and so and then it was a question, well what do we talk about, you know? And so it didn't take us too long to figure out the unsolved mysteries, but we did debate some other things like cooking show and you know, Campion show still doing that. What we thought about true crime? Might hear that's popular, but true crime wasn't really our whalehouse,

you know. Yeah. So yeah, I think we actually over here. We're about five minutes ago. It was probably sorry guys, but we'll be a podcastro again tomorrow at some point what time in the morning, right, Yeah, I can pull the schedule out and then we also have a panel on Sunday. That will be moderating. Yeah, citizen detectives one on one. Yeah, right, thank you very much. That is you guys are awesome. If we love you. Hi, Mom, she doesn't listen. Shut up. Sorry, we ran over. We're

not gonna screare you you hear no? Anyone? All right? When we got seven minutes for everybody to show us, so, hey, you got time to kill guys? Anybody got questions? Anybody now? Okay? No question? Too late? No, no, you're too late late. What's the question? My favorite episode? That question? Asked, asked Devin. First, I gotta think about this. Oh, I can't tell you that one. It's actually kind of a bone of contention between these two and met. What is that? Yeah, and

so we can't talk about that. What's another hunting joke? As usually talking, I can't. I'll explain it to you guys, okay, not in front of all these people. The running joke is I would say one of them is the studio cats, because they like to run. And this is exactly what it sounds like when they come into the studio. Now, twelve pound cats, How are they so heavy? Their fourteen pound cats? That's how they're so heavy. Yes, yeah, well

it's interesting. One of my cats is extremely stealthy, like a cat, you know, and he can be extremely quiet, but for some reason, if we're about to record, he will come stomping through the room, just bump bump, bump bom. I don't know why he knows that we're recording and he just makes a lot of noise. I don't get it. Um So, any other questions, Oh, yeah, Joe and I used to Uh, I'll just start that over again because there was a whole lot of words that didn't make sense.

Joe and I have known each other for years. We were on a dragon boat team together paddling, and then we were out where Yeah we need a bartender and he would give us a broad deal. So just say I think we're total bar flies. Uh. Yeah. And we were talking about a mystery, which I Joe still thinks to this day's step Cooper he talks about pretty much. Yeah, it's a good mystery. And Devon inserted herself into the conversation that will surprise everyone in this room. Yeah, yeah,

I know, alright. Any other questions, Yeah, I'm still supposed to give you an answer about favorite mystery, still having a tough time. Of course, I still I still actually I'm kind of following the Brandon Swanson disappearance. Scoring Um, but that's not going anywhere too fast unfortunately. UM. See what are some other ones? Of course, dB Cooper, but we haven't actually talked about that, so I guess that's not legitimate, right, What about you, Devin where I don't

know that I have a favorite? Oh, the Lake City Quiet Hills. That was a good one. That was a very popular one, it was. Yeah, And of course the Herbert Fuller was kind of a fun one. Do you guys hear that one? Murder at cy Acts, Murder at c that was a very recent one. Yeah, yeah, I kind of like that one. Just just start listening her episodes and see how many people have listened to any given Do you have internet? Yeah? And by the way,

you guys, I have news. I got to meet Nancy Grace and hang on at Picture Cat Picture Fine picture there's me and Nancy. Yeah, and uh and I told her to come and see us at Nancy you get here? Did she just laugh in your face? No? Actually she said do you have a card? And she took my card, So I think that means she's going to be here. I think it means we're getting married. Okay, but they'll get they'll get to listen to the intern so it's okay. Yeah,

Justin really kind of saved the episode. He did all the research, he did. Yeah, he wrote all the scripting. Yeah, it was indispensable. Yeah, it's almost like it was a generation Why and then we went out and drank alcohol. Yeah, that's sorry. You wouldn't move to town. Sorry we got two minutes still, any more questions over here? Oh? Oh, sure, I am in real estate, but I'm gonna be a little vague about it, just because you know, I like to be coy. But I'm not a real estate agent.

H Yeah, and you don't ask for his card. And prior to that, I worked in I T for a number of years. Um, and then my job was outsourced to India, and so I decided to switch professions, which is probably a good thing because I was kind of bored with the I T thing. Uh, I mean, that's about it. So I do that, And actually I really enjoy this job better than the other job. I gotta tell you, job a pretty decent job, but this is

you know, this is better. Sure, I'll go next. I am a designer, so I worked for a tech company in Portland's So I do graphic design, industrial design, software design. So it's pretty varied, but it's all in that kind of art realm, which is why I probably get stuck with making our shirts and stuff. I used to work on a cruise ship. If you didn't know a cruise ship for like three weeks, and that's all it was.

Actually was just on a cruise. Um. I'm actually I am an event planner now, so I plan events like this for my real life, which at a bar no definite perspective, no in general though, she just does that eye my eye. Okay, actually I'm going to shoot my ringer off on my phone. Yeah it is yours off. No, why would you do that already