Thinking Sideways: The White House Farm Murders

lovely don't care. He was pointing at us. That was a trick, Steve Stevens, the pretty one. Actually yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well so sorry. For the time being. At least we still are a podcast. It talks about unsolved mystery should transfer to cooking. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna do something else. I thought it was we're gonna be a yoga podcast. I thought it was gonna be archery. So we have a lot of work to do to figure out a new podcast. So let's stick with what we got today

for the time being. There's still a few usolved mysteries out there. Oh yeah, and before we go any further, I want to thank our our listener, Linda. That's Linda with a Y for suggesting this mystery, which I thought at the beginning was a simple, little mystery, but wow, it turns out it's a lot bigger than I realized. Uh So this week we are going to look into a very very shocking mass murder. Isn't mass murder when

five people get killed? Yeah, it's not. It's probably some of you have heard about this, and if you act you live in Britain, of course you've heard about it. And I'm talking about the white House Farm murders, which is one of the most notorious murders in modern British history. I think it's safe to say. Yeah. So, depending on who you talk to, And there's a lot of disagreement about this one, either five people were murdered in cold blood or four people were murdered and then the killer

committed suicide. So what's it? Good? I guess we're gonna go through the whole day and then we're gonna flip a coin and saw this thing. Yeah something like that. Yeah, that's about how I feel about it. Yeah, well it's yeah. So our murders took place in the wee hours the morning of August seven, although I guess it's it's conceivable that it took place before midnight to so to be August six, but I'm pretty sure it was the morning of the seventh, at least one of them. At least

one of them. Yeah. Uh. The place they took the murders took place. That was the farmhouse at the White House Farm in tols and Darcy, England, which some of you have probably not heard of. I've never heard of it before I started reading about this thing. Yeah, I saw. I looked at it on Google. It's a it's a nice little town. It looks like it's about fifty miles

northeast east of London. Um. The people who on the farmhouse were Neville in June Bamber, and they were being visited by their adopted daughter, Sheila Capelle and her twin sons, Nicholas and Daniel. They normally lived in London. Sheila had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia in nineteen three and her mental state was kind of up and down. She was apparently down, yeah, kind of going downhill. Yeah. It turned out that after the murders, a psychiatrist who had treated

Sheila's said that she told him. Of course, that didn't come out until later, among other odd statements that she said a lot of weird stuff to them, to her psychiatrist, but she felt that she was capable of murdering her sons. She also also felt like she was capable of, like, I don't know, mentally directing them to I was gonna say,

murder other people. Yeah, she had delusions that she was in direct communication with God and outso had the delusions that she was like she and her mother and her two kids were like infected by the devil, are possessed by the devil. She was all over the map. Yeah. Yeah, And so you can sort to see why, um people draw people jump to this particular conclusion about murder suicide.

When the parents and the kids were found shots to death, and Sheila was dead and from what appeared to be too self inflicted gunshot wounds, they jumped to that conclusion murder suicide, and then they changed their minds about a month later. Uh, this is still really controversial. There's there's partisans on both sides of this case. There's a there's a whole you could almost call it a movement to

reopen this case and retry the case. Yeah, because of new evidence and stuff like that, and of course the police investigation was really bungled. Yeah, actually it was so bungled. I read somewhere that they said that in the police departments in England often call um bungling a case doing a bamber. Yeah, it was so bungled that it has become the mark by which everybody measures case bungling. It

is epic proportions. Yeah, and it's it's really it's really a shame because there's a lot of important evidence that would really resolve this, just like that. Yeah, if they had and yeah, if they if they've done it correctly, if they hadn't destroyed things. I mean, there's a whole there's a list of things that we're going to go through. They could have done better. Oh yeah, yeah, if they have they kept recordings and kept better records and yeah,

well I'm sure we'll get into this. Oh yeah, we'll talk a little bit more about this. Uh yeah, because again I think if we could get a look at one or two key pieces of evidence, we could probably solve it in about a minute probably. Yeah, more on that later though. The Bambers, that's Nevill and June They also had adopted son, Jeremy Bamber, who was twenty fourth time this took place. He is currently in prison for life for the murders for five life sentences. Yeah he has,

he sees. Yeah, there are only in Britain, there are only about twenty people who are imprisoned for life without parole. He's one of them, the other ones. Just like serial killers. There are people out there who think that Jeremy is a psychopath who should be locked up forever, and then there are others who think that this thing is a huge miscarriage, miscarriage of justice. So what report you said?

We read all. I'd read a little a fair amount about actually the upbringing of these two children, Sheila and Jeremy. And it is very interesting, uh, that a house could have produced at the very least, Jeremy. Jeremy has some sort of disassociative something. He may not be a psychopath, but he's there's some disaffected, disassociative something going on with him. And it's very interesting to me that two children can come from the same family, one with such a dissociative

disorder and one with such severe schizophrenias. Well, yeah, I think you know, I mean This is a giant debate and we're not going to go too far into it, but the parenting has some influence on that because June this is a pretty good case study in nurture versus nature. Yeah, because June was extremely devout and impressed that upon her children in some very strange ways to try to get

them to go along with it. So I can see how one of them would kind of breakdown and I don't know if that's the right term to use, but mentally just kind of give up, and then the other one just put up a wall and go on autopilot. Yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah, Jeremy is not an emotional guy at all. As I believe it was his cousin who was involved in this whole thing to a certain extent. This cousin said that you found out at a fairly young age,

said he was adopted, So what does that mean. That means that somebody had you, gave birth to you, and didn't want you, and they gave you away to somebody else. And Jeremy's case was was even a little more severe than Sheila's. Sheila's parents were unmarried and she was an legitimate child right um. Whereas Jeremy's parents had him, said no, we don't want him, gave him up, and then got married a few years later and start a family of

their own exactly. So I think that, you know, to me, that would be a little more of a harsh reality to face of like, oh no, no, they're still together. They just chose they didn't want you, yeah, exactly. And then um uh and then after that the uh, the parents sent Jeremy away to school, and which probably made

him feel even more rejected. And then he made the mistake of confiding to a few of the school may said he had been adopted, and so that people started calling him like a bath the bastard and all that stuff. So that was probably a mistake on his part. But anyway, but you know, with all this rejection, I think Jeremy just sort of shut his emotions off. I also consider him to be stereotypical British man, closed, quiet, reserved, just

to a very extreme extent. Well, I know, but it's it's it's what you it's okay, I'm not gonna say this is all British Men, but this is what you always see portrayed, stiff upper lip, and that seems to be that he took it farther than most really far. That's the way I see. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah anyway, Yeah, but anyway, jeremmy was working on the farm at the time.

Of course, parents are about a hundred and seventy pounds of months, and plus you got to live rent free in the house that was owned by his parents that was about three or three and a half miles away. So he was he was doing okay, but not making money handed for fist. It's not nothing in Yeah, it's it's a good well, yeah, I mean free were is comfortable. Yeah, free were at and also he supplemented his income by growing pot. They had like three hundred acres and so

he was able to find himself a little patch and pot. Yeah. On the evening, the evening of August six, he visited the family house probably you know, for dinner because because his sister was visiting from London the moment. It's the sense that I had is that he did that fairly often. Yeah, well he was so close to Yeah, that's good point. Yeah, depending on where here. He was either hunting rabbits a little bit earlier and had his father's father's twenty two

rifle out or else. He her other versions. He heard rabbits outside, so he got the rifle and loaded it up because he wanted to go shoot some rabbits. Apparently he likes shooting animals. Well, okay, okay, I know that they said he has said that the family used a gun to shoot rabbits on the property. What I could never find is what was it they were growing on the property. Yeah, I know, I don't know. I've never

idea Yea, I looked. I kept looking at it. There's never any mentioned, you know, of weed farmer so and none of that. So I have no idea what they what they grow there? Yeah, well they grow pot and they obviously have a rabbit infestation. Yeah apparently. I mean, if you have rabbits on your property, they're pretty easy to kill and they're pretty delicious. So well, good point, they're prettystructive. Yeah, that's true. So it's kind of you know,

killing a lot of rabbits with one's done. Yeah, you're welcome back to Yeah, he left the he left the rifle. It was had had a scope on it in a silence there. That's kind that kind of the cool thing about Europe is it's a lot easier to get silencers, yeah, also called moderators, also called suppressors. Yeah, uh rifles yo. Yeah, we had a ten round magazine. So fast forward a little bit about he left he when he left the house, he left it on the kitchen table, right, he didn't

put it back in the gun cabinet. Now, he left in the table. That's important. Yeah, yeah, later on, later on it wound up the somebody started to scope and the silence are off of the rifle. We don't know who did it or win and those the scope in the silence are wound up back in the young closet. Can I ask why you need a silencer or a

suppressor to hunt rabbits. I don't think you need it, but I think if you're trying to kill more than one at a time, you probably don't want the sound of the gun to be really loud and care the rest of the rabbits off if you're hunting with the scope, though they're at a distance, and twenty two aren't that loud to begin with quiet either though. Yeah. That that I say about suppressors is that you can shoot without having to put on put in ear plugs or ear

muffs or anything like that. So that's kind of cool, especially if you've got to listen for their little rabbit sounds, you know, to hunt them, and it's a little rabbit rabbits, rabbit calls, yeah, the sounds of eggs and eggs being laid by the rabbits, that kind of thing. Yeah, alright, I just I didn't see the need for the suppressor. Apparently suppressors are fairly popular in Europe just because it's it's it's pleasant, it reduces noise. That I understand it.

I've just suppressed. It might have been also that perhaps, uh, you know, they did it out of consideration to the neighbors. But and and they did it because they just did again didn't want to wear ear plugs. Well, it seems to safe for the neighbors. I don't really see that that being am because when I looked it up on the map, the nearest neighbors like a half mile away, so it's not like they're right next door, but they might be on the edge of their property when they're

shooting rabbits walking around possibility mooching. I heard recently that's the term you can use for walking around. I did not know that, Okay, this is this. This next thing is a little bit contested, and it's either at three twenty six or three thirty six in the morning on August seven, Jeremy called police to pass along a message that he'd gotten from his father. His father had called him, he said, from the farmhouse, saying that Sheila has had

gone berserk. That was his words, and that showed up in the police report too, had gone berserk and had the gun. He also apparently at that point called his girlfriend in London for some reason, and then he headed over to meet he had talked to the police. The police told him to meet them over at the farmhouse, so he went over there and the police. One of the police cars passed him on the way. They said

he was driving kind of unusually slowly. They thought he was because apparently, as it turns out, he usually was kind of a fast driver. So he was driving slowly through in the morning, and the guy, yeah, I wondering if he wasn't a little loaded. Also, you can just attribute that to if he's telling the truth, being nervous and afraid of what you're gonna find, but still having to go. I have to go fast, exactly want the cops to get there first. Well exactly, That's what I

say is he definitely wanted the cops to get there first. Yeah, you can't really blame him. Uh yeah, Actually, no matter how this shook out, he wanted the cops there first, no matter who's guilty. Yeah, which makes sense to me on all. I don't think that it's I don't think it proves or disproves. I don't. I don't think it does either. Really, I don't think it's suspicious anyway. The police set a car along about four third. I'm I'm getting out of kind of getting out of sequence here.

But he had Jeremy had reported that his father had called him and said all that stuff about Sheila and then he and then the phone just sort of cut off. That's what he said. Although when they found when they went into the house, they found the phone off the hook. About four thirty am, a British telecom phone operator checked check the farm phone line and found that it was off the hook. But all she could hear was a dog barking and nothing else. So that's at four thirty am.

That's what happened. What was there? A dog? Yeah, they had a little, a little small dog and what happened to the dog? I'm not sure. That's literally the only thing I've heard about the dog. The dog was fine, dogs running around the house barking. Yeah, dog was unhurt. Okay, yeah, that's good. I'm sure they found a home for it. They had an extended family. But will be more about the dog later. This is kind of a This might just be one of those dogs, the dog that didn't

bark mystery. Maybe. Yeah, So at that point, Jeremy was kind of urging the cops to go into the house so that they didn't want to because they were afraid of getting shot, because he had actually they had made an inventory of the guns that were in the house, and he also made a drawing in the house so show him kind of where everybody would be sleeping, also pointing out some spots where Sheila, if she was still alive and armed, might be hiding and could potentially ambush

them from. And he also told them that she knew her way around a gun, didn't she didn't? He Yeah, I mean, she wasn't an expert, but she said. He said that they had done shooting and she used again and yeah, I pick it up a rifle and pulling the triggers not too complicated. Well, I don't know. I would say, like I've used a gun before, but I don't know that, Like, I don't know that I could actually hit. Something about this case, though, is that whoever did the shooting it was close it was it was

it was extremely close range. There was no skill involved. I just mean, like if a police officer was like rushing me, I don't know that i'd be able to be like, yes, this is nothing call of duty. You know you're done. Yeah, this isn't. This isn't there is no fallout or anything. Should we not do that again? I think that portal, I know, yeah, but in this in this case, so the I think the longest distance was like two ft yeah right, yeah, so yeah, no

skill needed. Yeah yeah. Because the cops were worried about getting shot, they waited for what the equivalent of a swat team, which apparently it's called a tactical firearms group, and those guys showed up about five uh, and everybody decided to wait until daylight to go into the house. Is everybody else consider this timeline just screwy cops showing a three thirty swat team shows up at five. We have had no contact with the inside, but we'll get away.

Yeah the hell, I mean, I guess, in fairness, you're not hearing shot. It's not active shot happening. I guess on the one hand, you think, okay, somebody could be bleeding out on the floor, right, they could be dying there, But there's also there's not additional violence happening. It's it's a stable situation in there, whatever it is. If we go in without the support we need, it could quickly

become destable. And it wasn't like they have the gear they have now, and they didn't know, you know, so once the SWAT team showed up, they probably were like, well we could or you know, the sun's gonna be up pretty soon, so we could just do it. Then we'll wait another hour and a half. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. It seems insane to me, but from the hand, but against now that I think about it, CNN shows stand us for seven hours before the cops go in,

So I don't know why I think this is so unusual. Yeah. Yeah, maybe maybe the cops were thinking, hey, you know, there could be somebody in there with the gun, or maybe the guy calmed her down and got the gun away from where they all went back to bed. Maybe I don't know. Ye, yes, the morning paper here. Yeah, the house was dark, by the way, and uh so, yeah,

maybe they're gonna wait till the light came on. They see somebody move around in Yes, one of the cops I think, said he saw, and I also, Bamber said, Jeremy Bamber said he saw I saw somebody in the second floor window. But but then another cop said, you know, we were we just sort of moved side to side, and it looked like it was really just an illusion of like the reflection of some moonlight, and so that's not not so No, nobody really knows exactly when the

last shots were fired. They also said they saw the body of a woman in the kitchen. There was that too. Somebody said the body of a woman, but it turned out to be the body of Neville. We're going yeah, although I heard one report that somebody saw his body and the body of a woman, yeah, which is intriguing. Yeah, yeah, and then we'll talk more about that in a little

bit later. But uh so, yeah, And in the meantime, they were they were asking Jeremy questions like whether she really might have gone nuts with the gun and if she was really truly dangerous and he according to him, he replied, quote, I don't I don't really know. She is an utter. She's been having treatment unquote. And well that's insensitive, but he said it. I didn't say that, No, I mean, truly, he that's a very simple thing about

your family members, that you'll say she's crazy. I don't know. Yes, I would say that about a lot of my family, except that you can't see they're getting the treatment. I mean, that's if you tag that on, it becomes a completely different statement. So I can see why they would be a little hesitant. Yeah. Yeah, So eventually they made up their minds, and at seven thirty four, they took a sledgehammer to the rear door of the house and smashed

it open and went inside. They found Neville dead on the kitchen floor, with seven bullet wounds in him, a lot of blood and also he was out. Yeah, I'm sure there's blood inside him too, but and he he also had been beaten pretty harshly around the head. His had black eyes and broken jaw. Yeah. So, and there was some furniture overturn looked like they had been a struggle. Yeah. Uh, they went upstairs. They found June dead in the master bedroom.

Also they found she though, also in the master bedroom, lying at her back with the rifle laying on top of her, two bullet holes in her in her chin, underneath her jaw, apparently a suicide. And also her two twin sons were both dead in their beds. In their beds, they've been apparently shot in their sleep. Yeah, one had five bullet holes in them and the other one had three. They had cops go back outside and they talked to Jeremy Bamber and informed that his entire family is dead

and apparently, uh, he kind of lost it. Well, yeah, I think he was a little shocked. He cried, He even maybe vomited a little bit. Yeah. Everything I've read, everything I've read says and he appeared to vomit. Yeah, that's literally how they phreeze it on everything. So I don't actually have a clear sense of if somebody said, oh, yeah, he's dry heaving over in the corner, or he was dry heaving, or walk around the side of a car and bent over like he was gonna lose his stomach,

and somebody saw it. That's that's not unusual. I know a friend of mine, she she lost her little dog that she loved tremendously. And once he was was showing the little corpse of her little dog, she did that. She's like started crying, she and she then she threw up and then she passed out. Yeah yeah, yeah, so yeah. Anyway, Um, let's go back to the crime scene. So Neville Bamber was shot eight times, and they concluded that he was

shot four times upstairs in the bedroom. I think that this is I'm like like blood spatter and also just it was it was cartridges. The blood spatter was one of the key things. But I think you're right there, the cartridge probably yeah, that the mpty shell case things he got downstairs. And it's unclear exactly when he made the phone call, if he made it at this point or I think more likely he made his phone call

before the shooting started, but we don't know now. I say that because if you indeed made that phone call, the phone didn't have any blood on it, that's right. Yeah. He also probably couldn't have talked if he had been because when he got shot, I'm one of the shots. If I remember the Winter's jaw. Yeah, I don't know if they know which one which which shot was where. Well, I think they do know which ones were where, partially because of the blood spatter. I wanted to say splatter,

but I think they have something. That's why I'm pretty sure they had figured out that he had the one that had gone through his jaw had gone gone in when he was upstairs, so he couldn't have really talked on the phone. Yeah. Well, and the other thing unintelligible. The other thing too, is when you got somebody who's trying to kill you, the last thing you do is go make a phone call. You go to your gun

closet and get a gun out. And so that's probably what he had it downstairs to do, That's what I'm guessing, and not and not to make the phone call. So I think he probably made the phone call before the shooting started. If you made the phone call, there's that's controversial. He was, so he made his lay downstairs. There was a struggle. It appears that there was damage to the rifle. So it appears that somebody but stroked to him the headbutted with the with the rifle, and then it probably

bludging him into unconsciousness. So I'm gonna guess at this point in time, this this gun only helped him rent ten rounds in them magazine. Uh, the Submisso whoever it was that did the shooting bludgeoned him into unconsciousness and then paused, reloaded the gun, and then finished him off the gun was loaded. Can I ask a question here? And maybe you don't know. I don't remember seeing it anywhere. Did they ever figure out what they thought the order

of the killings had taken place in? No? You know? And this is um you see, I don't know how how well fingerprint ideas hold up under under on a cartridge it's been loaded into a magazine and then fired. I would think that you would still be able to lift prints off of that after that empty showcase showcasing partial. Yeah, so the first ten rounds would have had Jeremy's fingerprints on him, no matter what, No matter what, because he

admitted to loading the weapon and then leaving. Yeah, he loaded, he loaded the weapons, so that would tell you where the first shots took place. But I don't know if they did that. I know they gathered the casings and they made note of where each one was. But I looked around. I was trying to find any information about if they lifted prints off the shellcasings, and I couldn't

find anything. Okay, the only reason I'm asking is that I'm imagining that the encounter between Neville and whoever was doing the shooting had to have caused quite a bit of noise, just with the bludgeoning and the broken furniture. So it almost leads me to believe that he was maybe one of the last ones to die. Yeah, that's what what I was thinking to you. If the kids were killed in their sleep, Let's assumed that the silencer

was on the rifle for much of the crime. So the kids, if the kids were killed in their sleep, well they must have been killed first. Maybe or maybe June was. I don't know, I think. I mean, my my guess would be the boys first. And that's eight rounds. Eight rounds. That composes a logistic I say that because that's a logistical issue. You've got ten rounds total, and you've just expended eight of them. Okay, so you you know, you do that. You go downstairs, you reload. Neville says, oh,

I heard something. It's weird. Comes downstairs and it's maybe it's Sheila right in this story and says, what are you doing? So nothing? Run away, You grab the phone, make the call here, gunshot go oops, drop, the phone line goes dead. You run upstairs. June's dead. Now how many shots was that seven? So you've got three? Yep, So maybe there's I'm willing to accept in this case, there could have been a margin were of one shot that was shot up above? Right, he gets shot three times,

run downstairs, he was shot four times upstairs. I think I'm just saying I'm willing to see what I see where he is going, and I I suddenly see where the flaw in my logic is and maybe probably a lot of people's logic, which is I played too many freaking video games that you expend all the rounds in the cartride or in the clip before you reload, you know, because video games make that easy. But you don't. You're right,

I just dawned on me. You don't have to do it that way, So that could very well be it. Or you shoot June once once in the head's all it takes. Maybe you shoot her once Neville comes up says,

well what are you doing? You shoot him? Four times, chase him downstairs because he's going for the phone again or whatever, beat him to death, come back up, finished June off, and now we all know why this story is such a mystery, because we could do this for another U taking notes, Starry, Gevin and I are gonna keep going, So I'm just providing one. I totally, but I agree. I think the boys probably would have had gone first, because otherwise they would have they would have

been woken up. They would have been woken up, and they would not have been peacefully in bed. Yes, yeah, well anyway, so I'm sorry. As a quick question, it was a it was a uh not a semi automatic? What what? What kind of semimatic? Okay, because that also explains why there maybe maybe what I would say is an excessive amount of shooting happening to like a small boy in a bed, right, you need one bullet for that.

But if you are not experienced with guns and you pull the trigger a little too hard, and it just would have kept going. Not a full lotto, just semi autount you have to pull the trigger every time, every time, never mind. But yeah, whoever did it wanted to make sure the kids were dead, so you know, I want to make sure everyone was dead. Yeah you can. Actually you could actually probably survive a gunshot wounded the head. You're probably not going to survive five probably not. Just

it's pretty rare, not a chance really. Uh So there was the shooting that we're not really sure what order it all occurred, and I'm guessing that uh let's say it was Sheila. She walks into the bedroom and she shoots. She shoots Neville four times, thinking well, that'll be enough, and then she turns the gun on on her mother and start shooting her. Let's say she shoots her. You know, I was like four or five maybe six times. Well,

now she's got an empty gun. Meanwhile, Neville is heading downstairs. Oops, he didn't finish him up with those four rounds, and you know he's going to go grab himself a shotgun or something. So you go, you go after him, You take that rifle and you start you start head but he started hitting him with that thing until he loses cautiousness at least enough that you've got a time. I'll just a little bit of time to reload your gun

and then finish him off. Then you go back upstairs and you pop a few more rounds into mother because you don't like her. Yeah, yeah, and actually she lived. Neither of the kids liked their moms work almost no matter who killed them, they didn't like June. There's there's one option of a person who maybe I didn't really care. Yeah. And then of course, you know Jeremy, Jeremy had he had problems with his parents, and then he wasn't that

crazy about his sister. And then he was also really kind of angry and jealous about his sister because she had had her breakdown and everything, and she's broken up with her husband, got into divorce, and so they bought her a flat in London, and Jeremy is like, Jeremy was a little a little ticked off about that. Yeah, they bought a really nice flat. They probably were giving her a pretty hefty allowance. She was, I mean, you know, she was raising two boys, so she needed more money

than he did. And of course her husband, her ex husband at that time, he reportedly said he was doing almost everything four and with the boys before they came to live with them. But I also I want to point out she was twenty eight or twenty nine when she died, so that makes Jeremy twenty four. Twenty four

year old men are jealous, idiots of everything. Yeah, so, I mean part of so I'm not trying to justify behavior, but I'm also trying to shine a light on this is kind of normal behavior for a twenty four year old be angry at everybody else because he's not getting his entitled Yeah. Yeah, that certainly doesn't mean he's a psycho. Yeah,

I mean, I've don't. I've known a few people that had like they were from not superstick and huge rich, but very well off families, and when the siblings were all like, you know, you know, really kind of a yeah at each other's throats some of the money and stuff like that. Yeah, any way, back to our story

when we're talking about okay, oh yeah, the twins. Twins, they were shot eight times total, and then Sheila was on the masterurbiding floor, as I said, on her back, shot twice and there were no signs of struggle on

her body. That's the police set. Her hands were clean, no lead or powder residue, there was no blood on her feet, even though there was blood on the floor, So that was considered kind of significant and it might be, but that's significant well because saying the blood, because if she had done all the shooting and there was all this blood flying around, she should have had it on her.

She should have walked through some of it. Yeah, yeah, uh yeah, but U cour at the same time, you know, when she was done slaughtering everybody, she could have washed her hands. And there were a pair of socks found nearby that we were blood stained. And so if she was walking around in her socks and she took her socks off because they were blood staining and sticky and and gross, so she takes them off, wipes her feet off, washes her hands. So there that explains the lack of

blood and the lack of lead residue. So I think I'm I'm gonna I'm willing to say that the evidence is strong that Sheila was the last one to die. Would you agree with that she was out of the last or the first? And here's what I would say, she might have been the first, supposing that she didn't

do the killing, supposing it really was Jeremy. Now, what they have said that the police, the prosecution has said there are no signs of a struggle on her body, you know, no broken, no scratches, no bruises, no broken fingernails, nothing like that. Well, if Jeremy had murdered her, and this is one of the problem the reasons I kind of have my doubts that he did murder her. The only way he could have done it without a strug

would have been to kill her first. Yeah, And I guess I'm going off of the evidence that's been presented with the crime scene photos and the fact that it looks like her blood is like real fresh, still wet. That's that's and that's the thing. It looks like she was last killed by far yet, right, So I am

of the camp that says that she died last. And if she died last and didn't do the killing, if Jeremy or someone else did the killing, it's even more suspicious to me that she was clean because I've seen crime picture. I mean, there was a sizeable amount of blood around June, for instance, There's a lot of blood everywhere. There was stuff going on. She definitely would have been

woken up with whatever is happening with Neville downstairs. Either she would have gone down to investigate that, she would have seen her mom, and who knows if she would have been sad of her mom or not. But she would have walked through some blood, there would have been some damage, and then they're probably would have been a struggle with Jeremy. Probably maybe not. I don't know what. I don't know how the drugs she was on affected her.

They I know they're kind of head seditative qualities. Yeah, it was kind of a sedative. Yeah, anti sex. I don't know if if, I don't know, but I think that I think it's having been the first to die. Is the coagulation of the blood that doesn't add up at all? And I swear correct me if I'm wrong, if either of you know the answer. But I swear that while Jeremy and the police were outside they heard gunshots.

Is that incorrect? I swear I read that somewhere. I didn't read it did a lot more clicking on some websites than I did. I know. So that's because you hate colored tech. I can't. I'm sorry you guys. Make your make them black and white, come on and and black on white, not the other way around. The worst, actually, right might the worst the worst ones of all are the ones where they have they fade away from bright, the dark, the background behind you. I just hate that.

My god, it's just it's so hard in your eyes. Back to the anyway, I think she likely washed. I mean there were notes of things like her nails were perfectly manicured. Still, she was in a pristine dread or sleeping gown. Everything was perfect and not to me sounds like ritualistic cleaning after versus Oh, I just happened to make it through this basic blood bath with not a single drop of anything on me. Yeah, I think it's it's highly possible that that's why she she cleaned up,

maybe even changed your clothes. Although they probably would have found the clothes, maybe they wouldn't have because I know that they missed some other stuff they were not well. There is the other answer, which is she was naked. If she cleaned up and she a quick shower, there would be no blood on clothes because she had no clothes. If she was shooting people naked naked assassin, she was a model, or she had been she had been doing nude photo shoots. And I make jest, but it is

completely plausible. In her own home she may have said, well, I look naked tonight. Now I'm I'm going off the edge. And you know what I'm doing it I'm naked. Well she's not gonna stop me. Well it was her parents house. Um, but yeah, no, that's true. It could she could have been naked. I like that theory. That one other, one other thing about Sheila's body is that there was a Bible next to it. It was it was open and length,

print down, facedown, face down. It was June's Bible, right, that was actually June's Bible, but it was next to Sheila's body. And when you look at the crime scene photos, you can see a note sticking out between the pages somebody. And I don't know if that was a note written by Sheila or by June or you know. I've looked at the photo and it's it's the It's hard to tell,

but I almost wonder if it's just a bookmark. I mean, I've heard it referred to as the note, but since we don't know what it is, I'm just wondering if it was some kind of bookmark. I was just going to say that I my family members who are intensely religious have their study Bibles, and they have notes and stuff stuck in there too. You know, they had a thought or they have something that they want to remember relates to this something, Yeah that relates to that passage

or or maybe not, but maybe it's something else. I don't know. People keep notes in their Bibles sometimes they do, so it's not necessarily significant. But here's the thing, is the note is gone. Yeah, so that's it's it's weird if it pertains to the case. Yeah, it might not. I guess it's weird. I guess if it doesn't pertain

to the case, because then why is it gone? But yeah, I mean it might have just been like saying notes about various biblical kinds of things, you know, and so somebody just thought that we don't need this pitch it on the Bible itself. The defense lawyers were asking for, like if they had had any separate, isolated pictures of the Bible, and you know, and like especially they were still in finding out what pages it was open too. And the police said, uh, now, we never took separate

pictures of it. And then, by the way, the Bible itself was destroyed sometimes I don't remember exactly we destroyed it. Great, guys, they destroyed a lot of stuff they like ten years after the case. Yeah, and then well there's a limit I believed how long they were required to keep certain evidence. But in a case where it's still being appealed continually, it's amazing that they did it, that they destroyed it.

You read you read why they did right. The police department that was in charge, the head custody of all this stuff said, oh, we didn't know the case was ongoing. Yeah. That was their official statement, was we burned it because we were unaware that the case was ongoing. Yeah, okay, I'm going to use that. Great guys. Yeah, know's there's a lot of stuff in this in this case, like

the phone calls. If it's true that Neville called the police, and there is there is some evidence that Neville Bamber called the police there and there's and then he's and then supposedly he called Jeremy, and then Jeremy called the police and they called differently, because I know Jeremy didn't use he called the station's number directly. Yeah, and I

believe Neville called I think so. Yeah. And the thing about it is is those were recorded, but the recorder the recordings were deleted after twenty eight days, which is a crying shame because that would solve the mystery. Yeah, yeah, it's a damn shame. I mean, anyway back into this thing, well, they had it was a there's a picture even of the log. Yeah, there's two different logs of two different

of apparently two different two different stations. Yeah. Yeah, so one of them said somebody identifying themselves as a Mr. Bamber called and said my daughter who's twenty six years old and has a gun. And then that was it. And then another call was Jeremy Bamber says his dad called him, and I mean it's pretty solid evidence. And

there's there's different time stamps, yeah, about ten minutes difference. Well, and that's the funny thing is I remember reading and it it just stood out his odd to me that they have two different time stamps and they're almost exactly ten minutes apart. But one of the rationales is obviously the officer who was taking the note misread the time on the clock and it should have been twenty four instead of thirty four. That was like or whatever. It was like, it was like the one of them was

three six and at the endmal was three thirty six. Yes, and I believe that Bambers, Jeremy Bamber's call was at three thirty six. Right, But here's here's the deal, is that in response to Neville's call, they had dispatched a car to the farmhouse at three thirty five. Yeah. So, I don't know, man, it's not not just incompetence at a certain point. I mean, it's at some point you kind of think that it's suspicious. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah,

suspiciously incompetent. Yeah, I mean, maybe somebody didn't like Jeremy. I don't know. Oh, I'm I have no doubt in my mind that a lot of people didn't like Jeremy. He said, Yeah, it doesn't seem like a lackable guy. But that doesn't mean he should be in prison. No, no, But on the bright side, in prison, he has obviously got a lot of time to work out. Oh yeah, he's got time to He's got lots and lots of time to work on his appeals because he just keeps

appealing this case. But he's also working on his guns, evidently, because the photos of him today he is kind of a big dude, keeping in shape, you know. Yeah, back to our mystery. Three days after the murderers, Jeremy's cousins went to the house because they felt like the police said probably, they didn't feel like the police were really paying proper attention, and they wanted to go search the house themselves. They were suspicious, right, wasn't capable of that

sort of thing. So they thought, well, clearly somebody else did it, and the police didn't search for evidence, which is fair. I mean, you know, they said, well, the gun always had a suppressor and a scope on it, and neither of those things were on the gun when you found it, so where were they? And the police said, we didn't find it well, and evidently they weren't easy. I imagined the suppressor wasn't hard, but the I know,

the scope required a screwdriver to take it off. Yeah, but I mean it's like it's one of those one of those things, probably a screwdriver, maybe even just a dime or a nickel, you know, something like that. It's it's not not hard to get off at all. It's not anybody could do it. And of course the suppressor just screws right on. They said, when they they're searching of the house, they want to the gun closet. The cousins did, yeah, and they found the silencer and just

right there, right exactly where I would yeah, exactly, just poppers. Yeah, this is and they keep calling this everywhere, they call it the gun cabinet, but really what it is. It's a small, little stubby closet and underneath the Harry Potter closet. Yeah, so it they noticed that it had red paint on it, and it was also sticky with a little bit of blood. Uh So they they called the police, and the police eventually came by and got it. Three days, took him

two or three days later. I thought it was ten three days, three days, three days later they went and got it. There was something else ten days was it? When they took photos official crime scene photo, there was something that happened. There was something like that that. Yeah, it was how low? How does it take that low? Yeah? Yeah, no, definitely, No, they actually took crime scene photos like the day of but not great ones, right, yeah, but they were thorough

enough to bring up one one anomally really interesting. Anomally it really interesting anomally Yeah. Uh So the family, the cousins, when they found this thing, they saw that paint. They went back to the farmhouse looking for the source of this red paint that was on the suppressor and they found it in the kitchen where the big fight took place. Uh. So there's a there's an august stove, like a big old, I don't know, oil stove, old fashioned kind of stove, and there was a red a mantle over it that

was painted red. And there were a bunch of scratches and gouges in this thing. And that paint did match the paint on the suppressor. Uh. And wasn't there a red paint like underneath it too that they matched to

actually the nail polished color that was on Sheila's toes. Boy. Yeah, they were looking for a flex of red paint in the in the crime scene photos because they the defense the Bamber's defense team hired an expert in photo analysis, and he he was expecting to find flex of red paint underneath where all this happened in the crime scene. If that was, he did not see it. He saw a flack of something red and he finally matched it to a chip in Sheila's to hair tonail polish, and

the chunk of that came off. Yeah, apparently, so maybe there was a struggle. I don't but the marks on the mantel weren't in the original crime scene photos. Right, they weren't visible in the original crime scene photos, which is crazy. Yeah, so this is really suspicious. That's a little suspicious, don't you think. Yeah, so, uh well, okay, let's move on and we'll talk about that some more later after. So, after the funerals, they had the did a funeral for Neville in June, and then they had

a separate funeral for Sheila and the kids. And then Jeremy Bambera went to Amsterdam. He tried to buy a large amount of drugs and offered to sell some nude photos of Sheila. Actually what it what it really was? I don't, I don't. He actually didn't do that in Amsterdam. He came he was back in Britain and he went to the Sun. What's the tabloid? I was I was going to guess it would be the Daily Mail, but yeah,

you had a good shot. Yeah, now you went to the He went to the Sun and uh, and he said, hey, I've got some I've got some. I don't know if they are totally naked pictures or just kind of revealing pictures or what they were. But the guys, the guys at the Sun thought it was kind of creeping inappropriate, even the guys at the Sun. I know it was creeping inappropriate. I know, and now seriously, and so I mean this is like just not very much, not long

at all, like after her death and yeah, just weeks. Yeah, and he's offering to sell naked pictures ever to the newspaper because he wants some cash, and so they just decided we'll screw him, and so they ran a front page story about how he had tried to sell naked pictures of his freshly dead sister to them. Kind of embarrassing,

not a great story. Yeah, uh yeah. So anyway, after his little John and after Daim, he and he was spending a lot of money because surprisingly he had all kinds of funds available to him, like half a million dollars right from half million, it was like four hundred thirty six thousand pounds and it was a lot of money. Well, and all of that wasn't cash money. This is yeah, that's all that stuff. Ye get a big bank roll available.

I guess I just want to point out a lot of people think it's really really suspicious that he went out and was partying and doing a lot of drugs and stuff like that. Frankly, if my whole family died in a really gruesome way and then I had a lot of money, I would be trying to escape reality whatever way I could. I would buy the most amount of drugs that I could possibly buy. I would Charlie

Sheen that stuff. I would be full Charlie Sheen. I would like be snorting everything I possibly could, drinking everything I could, sleeping with whoever I could, just to get away from the reality. And so I think it's just so dumb that people are like, well, he did go spend a lot of money. It's like, yeah, what what else are you gonna do? Your whole family was just murder and everybody thinks it's okay. You go to a funeral, and then afterwards everybody raises a drink to that person.

That's totally okay. Well, in my family we tend to raise more than one too where irish. Yeah, well, and then you know, so you go, but yeah, you bring the great point of his extended family doesn't like him, and he probably doesn't like them very much. He doesn't now at least, and so he's gonna go grieve and the only way that he can figure out as a dumb twenty four year old guy. That's the other part

we forget. He was four years old. And yeah, and the other thing to remember is that it might very well be that he didn't like anybody his family and he wasn't that sorry to see him gone. Doesn't necessarily that doesn't make him a murderer. It makes him a big jerk, but probably. I mean, yeah, and Jeremy, about a month after after the murders, he screwed up big time. He was, whether guilty or not, yea guilty of this.

I think what what I heard happened is is he was what Julia as his girlfriend, Julie Mugford, and he'd been dating her for several years, come two years, and he's the one that he called that night. Yeah, yeah, and she he had apparently told her all kinds of details about what he did. Apparently she was in on she was in to know about the murder, which to

me is telling telling anybody. Supposedly she was. Uh so anyway, apparently they were they were together, I mean, I think at his place, and he got a phone call from an ex girlfriend and then he uh she overhears him making a date with his ex girlfriend, and so she flew into a rage, drew some stuff at him, and it was kind of kind of a little physical altercation. He dumped her, and which is a really stupid thing to do. It's really stupid to tell somebody all these

details about the murder that you committed and then dump her. Yeah, really don't. Yeah, Well, he she like threw a bunch of stuff at him, and then he twisted her arm behind her to get her to stop, and then she stormed out. And then wasn't it half the half the time I read that she went to the cops, and the other half the time I heard that they pulled her in for some stuff. She was well, she had been. She it had troubles with the with the police to

see several other things. There was some theft, there was a bad lot, there was pot, there was breaking and entering, the theft. Yeah, one other. Yeah, this is one of the things that kind of reduces your credibility. But she was she was the star prosecution witness and Jeremy Bamber's trial. Believe it or not, she told the cops something. So she watched the police and changed her story because they had they had talked to her about what happened and

everything had at least one that. Yeah, So she goes to them and she tells them that actually Bamber said that they hated his parents, and he thinks he said at one time when he really really wanted to do was go over there for dinner and drug them and to date to them and then come back a little later on when they're all passed out and burned the house down. That was one of apparently his fantasies. And

we had talked about murdering them in other ways. And she also said she saw Jeremy's mother's bike at his house. It was June's bike. Yeah, yeah, and uh, and that was that was a key part of the prosecution's case, was that he bicycled over there to murder everybody. Yeah, and said so he could leave his car there and his car wouldn't be seen on the roads. And she said that he phoned her. She said a lot of stuff. I'm not going to tell everything. She really did. She

spun a yeah, she did. She she called him up that night, the night of the murders and said tonight or never, and then she said that she wanted the farmhouse. In the morning of August seventh after the murders, because apparently Jeremy wanted to see her and then you know, you know how somebody that she that he knew to

talk to. Yeah, yeah, and uh so the cops went and got her and brought her there, and supposedly he took her aside when they got there, and according to her, and she said, quote, I should have been an actor. Yeah that he told her, Yeah, that he should have been an actor he was doing so well or something like yeah, although there was the same thing when she showed up. There was a son interview with one of

the policemen who was there investigating at the time. And so they took them into the house and they found a room that what didn't have a corpse in it, which was hard to do, yeah, yeah, yeah, And then they found it didn't have a corpse, and they said, yeah, you guys can just go in there, and to just go in there and be together in YadA YadA, And then they shut the door. And the cop says he could swear that just assumed that's that door shut. He

heard a laugh. He said that he wasn't sure. It was like at the time, I thought he was saying, I like I thought, well, maybe it was a cough, but it was like it sounded like a laugh. Well, wasn't there some report of when Jeremy was at the funerals that he was kind of you know, oh, I'm really really sad and then like gave this huge smile

to his cousins or something like that was his cousins. So, yeah, they were in the car and as his cousin, David, David Boteflower said that he was in the back seat and he turned around and you gave him a huge grin just as soon as they were outside of the funeral And then he said his other cousin, I think it was his cousin said, said he did it, didn't he? Again, it's you know, one of those just because he didn't like his family doesn't mean to kill them all. Absolutely not. Especially.

The other thing to point out, I guess is that in all of these stories, all the tellings that Julie has, of all of his fantasies of killing his family, it was it was again, it was not very personal, right, it was like poisoned them and set the house on fire, not look them in the eye as I shoot them point blank twenty times, right, not tell me that's an exaggeration. But most of the things that he said, I think, you know, we all read kind of the same stuff.

And she said that he fantasized about killing them in multiple different ways. And I think every single one that I remember reading was poison and do something or drug and burned house down or yeah something, none of it. Yeah, he certainly didn't detail anything like hey is the word I'm looking for? Yeah, absolutely, you know, And so I

don't know she made this stuff up or not. Apparently her one of the roommates also said that, um that Jeremy hated his parents and he just hated his family, So maybe he was going around talking about how much he hates But again, the guy was twenty four years old, you know, and you tend to be saying do kind of jerkish things at that end. I said stuff like that all the time. Yeah, I said about you all the time. I meant to murder these two. Start my own podcast I do every time I listened to that,

and then do a podcast unjust your murders. Yeah, it'll be on Cereal. Yeah, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do my own podcast with black Jacks and hookers. Alright, so well, you know, she's questionable. Yeah, yeah, So so she also said that Jeremy said that he hadn't done it, but they had hired a plumber named Matthew McDonald to do it for two thou pounds, which is a really really bargain basement price for murdering five people. And it really is, yeah, I mean yeah, And actually that guy turned out to

have an alibi. Obviously the police pulled him in. He had a good alibi. So iron cloud is what they say. That's what they say. Wasn't didn't wasn't she granted immunity for like all of her crimes, her testimony got out of a lot of trouble. Yeah, that's another reason to question her, question her reliability. Is a witness again, she's angry about being jilted. She did have a history of dishonesty. She was motivated, she's motivated by this. Disagree with the testimony, yeah,

and then she doesn't have to go to jail. Yeah. And so at this point, the police put him under surveillance, and that's I'm talking about Jeremy, and they saw that he was selling off the family silver and antiques and stuff like that to raise cash and doing a lot of partying. And so at one point he's gone off to Santra Pe for a vacation. When he came back

and he got off the plane, they arrested him. And that was in September eighty five, about a month after the murders, and then a year later the trial started this Actuby six. The prosecution's theory was that Jeremy left the farm about ten pm and went back to his house and then came back by bicycle in the wee

hours of August seven. He broke into the house to the bathroom window, which apparently I think the latch was defect the ever broken or was he could use had an you could use that to unlatch it so it sneck in. Here's the problem that I have with this is that if he snuck in and surprised everybody in their sleep, what about the dog? What do you mean what about the dog? The dog knew him, well, the dog still would have barked up until the dog established

who he was. The dog was here, he was, if he was breaking, if he was coming in through a window, dog would have barked, yeah, my dog, my parents dog barks at me when I walk in the front door. Yeah, but I have known plenty of dogs who sleep on the bed with their master and something falls on the floor downstairs and the dog doesn't budge. That's true. But just because they have a dog doesn't mean the dog is gonna go bananas. That's the dog was doing a

lot of barking. Later on, of course, that there were there were a bunch of corpses in that time. Yeah, but no, I mean just because there's a dog doesn't mean he couldn't that the dog would have gone haywire when he came in. The dog may have walked into the hallway and he would hey, poo jams, how's it going. Oh it's you okay? Big? Oh yeah, don't you call your dog down and have a dog? I have two cats that think they're dogs. Well yeah, anyway, where are we at here? So I will try to reconstruct the

whole crime thing. So assuming that Jared this is just what the prosecution says, he got the rifle, one up and shot his parents, never runs downstairs. It's a fight and he finishes. Nevill Off goes up and shoots, shoots Sheila,

and then shot the twins as they slept. Then he arranged the scene to incriminate Sheila the Bible, and then he put the silencer away because he figured out at this point in time that her her arms were just not long enough for to pull that trigger when the silence was on the end of that gun took He also took the phone off the hook, went out the window, cycled home, and then called the police and said he've

gotten a phone call from his dad. They argued the prosecution that this argued that member had not received a call from his father, and I don't know how how they could hardly really argued that how can he say that he didn't receive a call? Again, he approved that he would think we're very spoiled in this day and age with phone records. Oh yeah, I know. And I don't know if they just weren't logged or what. Well.

I think also, the argument was right that since Neville had been shot through the jaw in the bedroom and the phone that was off the hook was the one in the kitchen, the argument was that by the time he had made it to the kitchen, there was no way that he could have made the phone call, and there was the assumption that that would have been the only time he was in the kitchen that evening and that was happening. Yeah, I think it's shoddy, but I

don't think that was probably the argument. Yeah, I wouldn't assume that that, and that's what they do too. I don't. I don't assume that because I think I would think he made that. Again, if she's acting looney with a gun, that's when you that's when you pick up the phone. If she's already shooting, you don't go for the phone

for the shotgun. That's the other thing that is if Neville got shot several times and he called and he calls his son, and I know that Jeremy said well, and people said, well, he was the keep it in the family kind of guy. But I've just been shot three or four times, call an ambulance. Why didn't you

call the ambulance yourself? Well, that's it. And that's one of the things that they were saying too, is that why would he have called Jeremy instead of he did call the police It appears thee but he would have said to the police, I've been shot three or four times, sending him exactly. Is why I think it's reasonable to assume that he called before he got shot. He did. I think he called before the shooting started. He did, and he called him. He called. I think he likely

called the cops. And then he called his son and said, you are three miles away and you've got a car. Come talk your sister down, come help me. Called the cops before you leave, so there's more people coming, but your sister's gone crazy. Or he called his son first and said, hey, call the cops and get over here, or just get over here, if he didn't want to keep it in the family, right, I don't think he just said. He just said, hey, your your sister's gone crazy,

get over here. Please. The line goes dead because he said, you know, he said, he said what he needs to say, stiff upper lip, you know, shortened to the point. Line goes dead, touches the receiver. I'm doing I'm mining it

touches the receiver because I remember those phones, right. Dallas completes the call that was logged at the other spot, says, okay, there's these you know, and then drops the phone and to pursue whatever I think, or the phone could have gotten knocked and knocked off the cradle during the struggle, struggle, Yeah, and for the cops could have done. I mean again, I I there's no blood on the phone. Because the phone call was made before the shooting started. It has

to be nobody. Nobody tries to make there was a yeah. So I have one question for the police records of the calls. Did they they traced the phone number that the call came from, or the caller identified where they were coming from? You know, times the caller identified when. Oh yeah, so the collar gave their phone number. I think I don't think there was. I don't even know if there was a phone number. Okay, now there were

phone numbers on those reports. I mean the one that supposedly came from Neville had the address the White House farm and number. My reason for asking that is the timelines weird, and the call to Jeremy is weird, and the whole thing doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. And so it made me start to wonder if maybe it wasn't Nevill that called him, but if it wasn't his sister that called, Hey, I've killed mom and dad. I don't know what's going on. I've got

some problems. So then he hangs up he calls the cops saying he's nevill to get them to go over, and then ten minutes later it's like, um, um crap, I'm gonna call the cops again, but I can't be Dad this time, so I'll just be myself. Especially if they don't they're not identified by a trace number. Did they have photo or did they Did they have cared? I don't think they do, and that's why they can't.

They can't confirmed this phone called to Jeremy from the house, so I suddenly wonder if maybe it I mean, I don't want to sully on the dead, but maybe it really was her. And she called up her brother's confessing what she had done and saying, I don't know what to do. I just realized that killed them all. Guess holy crap. The only argument against that is that the relationship between the siblings did not seem to be particularly

the robust. It seems like she would have probably called her ex husband before she would have called her brother husband and said, hey, I just killed her. I think she had a better relationship with her ex husband than she did hers. Sounds like it wasn't a totally bad relationship, but he was away in London. That's true. Yeah, yeah, and it just that's not a bad point. Again, I just these are things that I keep thinking about because there's so many weird things in this case. Well you know,

it could potentially fit. Yeah, but then why would she have killed herself? Guilt? It's usually why the person at the end does themselves in is they can't stand what they've done. Are maybe maybe she called Jeremy, and Jeremy says, well, you killed them all, and and she says, yes, I've killed them all. What am I gonna do this as well? Usually what people do in these cases is killed themselves.

We probably should should probably keep going a little bit because Joe and I talked about a theory we have, Okay, anyway to summarize what I think is wrong with the prosecutions theory Again, Now, that was too badly injured to have spoken anyway, No blood in the kitchen phone, he was not, and he he had to have made that phone call if he made it before the shooting started. Yeah, almost certainly I disagree with that at all. Yeah, So that's uh, So let's get back to the silencer for

a second. Yeah, the one that the one that was on from the two that had the blood on it and inside it. Well, but it's not the only silencer that was in the house now I know, But that was the one that actually went with that twenty two rifle. Is that true? Because I know that there was several silencers and there were several guns, and that the guns gotten mixed up and relabeled in police custody at least once again, great investigation, which okay, makes me wonder if

there wasn't more. And I don't remember, I don't remember seeing it specified what type, but I do remember seeing suspicions that they had mixed them up and that the one that had the blood in it wasn't actually the one that the prosecution was saying originally had been used. That's always possible, But the police wound up with the silence in their possession that did have red paint on

it. It It did have blood on on the outside and also inside, because you know how silences work, right, They're like a two with a bunch of baffles that I have just a hole through the middle of them. And so apparently there was not a huge amount but a little bit of back spatter, which makes sense that a short distance, short distance, even contact wounds, you know. So the first four or five of these baffles had some blood on them and they said it was the same

blood type of Sheila's. They said it was the same blood blood blood group. Yeah, and I assume that's British for blood type. It's not. Here's how this goes, because I actually bread into this. So in humans, evidently they are one of two blood groups, or at least in that family, there was one of two blood groups, A K one and a K two DASH one. I don't understand what those things. I don't know what they it's. I don't know what it means either. If I saw it in front of me, I could say the words.

But they are different groups. And the thing is is that the technology wasn't all that great. It wasn't as if they were sequencing the d N A. A K one is not only present in human blood, apparently from the stuff I've read. I don't know if that's true, but what I read is that well, actually this this um and I can't remember exactly what the a K one stands for, but it's in the blood of other critters, rabbits and yeah, so there's there there's some issue in

that we found blood on it. Bit Yeah, so it's it doesn't sound like and there was some I'll talk about this in a little bit. The now that we have d n A. Of course, I don't know if the silence are still around if they destroyed that too. I think it's still around and they did a little checking. That was my understanding. To my understanding is that they tracked out Sheila's actual bio mother. But I'll talk about

that in a minute. So, because there was that blood from Sheila's blood group in that silence, Sir Than, the prosecution argued that she was shot with the silence here on the gun and therefore she couldn't have done it herself. It had to have been murder because her arms again were not long enough to reach the trigger. And I'll mention I read somewhere online somebody saying, well, she was barefoot,

so she could have pulled it with her toe. But please remember, the silencer was not on the gun when it was found owned, so there's no way she could have pulled it with her toe. Yeah, okay, And there's no way she could have shot herself, taken it off, put it in the cabinet, and then gone back to where she died, at least not as pristina as she was. Well, no one are the shots. No, I know, I'm just saying, but like additionally, actually that neck one apparently would have

not immediately killed her. It was the one that went into her head, so she would have killed it would have eventually said if she had shot herself on the neck, thought oh, just kidding, this isn't gonna work with the silence or on for some reason, took it off, went down to the gun cabinet, put it back in the gun cabinet, came back upstairs, shot herself again. That's not possible. Yeah, there's a just yeah, it's h I mean, there's a competing theory out there, which is that she was going

to try to shoot herself. She realized it wouldn't work, so even the first shot, she just she took the suppressor off. And I don't know how much how a bunch of a neat freak Sheila was, she took to suppress her off. She put it away. I mean, you know, you know, for all I know, the suppressor she took it off in the kitchen and set it on the table. And then somebody came along, like the police and they

said that what's this doing laying out? And I'll just I'll just put it in the gun cabinet over there, because this is something we haven't actually addressed you. It is the number of people who came through this crime so like people came through this crime scene before anybody. And there's even evidence to suggest that the bodies were moved before they were before pictures were taken of them. That would absolutely corrupt any kind of body placement anything

of a suicide. Yeah, and there's pictures that are taken that show the gun having been moved and laying I think it's leaned up against a wall near a window, and you can see it in another photo accidentally, but then it's back, so that that's also worth mentioning as well. It's totally possible that, you know, there was just a silence, are rolling around and somebody thought I'll just put this away. Yeah, it's totally he was unlikely, but I guess I'm not.

I wouldn't be shocked to find out that that happened me. Neither uh or the prosecution. Last to set up the prosecution argus, it was claimed that she had no knowledge of guns and no interest in guns. She lacked the strength to overcome her father. Uh, and there was no evidence in her clothes or body that she had moved around the crime scene or been involved in a struggle. But again, I I don't find that this positive myself, because she had the rifle. So the rifle was at

her father was still up and about but wounded. He was wounded, had four bullets of him. So and she had a rifle. It made a nice handy club, and so it wouldn't have been hard to bludgeon him until

I tell he was unconscious. And it's also hard to know if in a situation like this, you want assumes that a that a person would fight back, But sometimes you find you read about these cases where you know, a daughter's like just totally beaten on their dad, and their dad isn't fight back because they don't hurt their daughter. It could be it's possible. It's not likely in this situation. It's more likely he was just too injured to fight back,

but it's always possible. Yeah. I mean, he's losing blood and he's got four bullet holes in him, and yeah, yeah. So the trial ended with a conviction um October six. Uh, the jury found ten to two that he was guilty. So if he had gotten one more, one more not guilty vote from a jury, he would have been let go, but he was. He was found guilty, sentenced to five

life terms. And by the way, the judge in this case really I think moved the goal posts on him when he said, when you know what I'm talking about. It was supposed to well, it was originally supposed to be unanimous verity, but they were having trouble reaching a verdict, so the judge basically said, hey, you don't. You just need to You just need to get at least nine out of twelve, So I'm going to change the rules on you, you know, so instead of having to be unanimous.

We also said that they could convict solely on the testimony of the ex girlfriends. Those were his instructions. Yeah, that you can convict solely under testimony, which I think I think is a highly questionable movement. Yeah, you know, well, I think the evidence against Jeremy Bamber is really kind of thin. It doesn't it doesn't mean he didn't do it. But let's let's examine this. For example, there is absolutely

no forensic evidence that links into the crime scene. I mean, his one of his fingerprints was found on the rifle, but he was handling the rifle just to night before. So you know, that's not exactly damning evidence. And are we doing handled it in the past, Are we doing theories now or I think we should? Well, yeah, I just you know, I just I'm just saying that. I just wanted to sum it up by saying, it's kind of remarkable that they got a conviction in this case,

considering I think how thin their their their case really was. Okay, let's talk about the theories. So we got some some possible perpetrae ys here, and we've talked about some of this stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we have. Again, I wanted I wanted to talk about the cases for a little bit. I don't know if they were fingerprinted or not. I was that for all my looking, I was not able to find it. I know they I know they

picked them up, they cataloged him. How many were in this room, how many in that room in Yadi Goda. But I don't know if they fingerprinted them. But if any of them had had had Sheila's fingerprints on them, a single one of them then I'm the case is solved, kid, Yeah, I have no idea those things are still around, probably not. And if none of them had Sheila's fingerprints on them, it's a yeah, then there you go. That explains it too.

And it would have been nice to take a look at the note that was in the viable because it probably was not a suicide note, but it would have been nice, you know, it would have been good if they could have at least taken a picture of it before they lost it. But we also mentioned, just briefly, the phone logs. It turns out there are records of a phone call from Neville as well this year. Right, yep,

we talked about that. Okay, Uh, Sheila was on I think this is pronounced hello, parat al halo parat all. I don't know, but it's a NATI psychotic drug and some of some of which was was found in your system during the autopsy. Wait, so we've moved into theories and based on what we're talking about, we're talking about Okay, we're talking about Sheila did it? Okay, because I was sorry,

I was sitting here. I'm like, okay, so we're talking more about Sheila was Okay, this is the justification that Sheila did it in the theory, Scott continue, Yeah, these are reasons to believe Sheila did it. She was on a drug. Yeah, so she was on I think it's halo pear at all or something like that. It's anti psychotic drugs. She had been on a HERD dose has just been reduced, right, Yeah. I had heard that they cut it in half. Yeah, so that was it was

an injection she had. It was like a monthly thing, and so I don't know how long ago she had gotten her shirt. Her monthly and it was like a week. Just say it's a weekly. And I think I do want to mention while we're talking about the drugs that she was on and all that stuff. I know that perception is that people with schizophrenia are violent, but realistically, clinically that's not the case. In fact, people with schizophrenia are more often the victims of violent cases than perpetrators

of violent cases. That's not to say that they can't go crazy sometimes, and and actually usually that's linked to drug use. And Sheila was using some drugs bipolar, so she would have fits of mania, which and so the whole thing was schizophrenia, right, is that very often you just disassociate from reality. You can't tell what's going on in your head and what's going on reality. She thought she was the devil, she thought, But I just want to make sure that because your mother called her the

devil child. But I do think that were the devil too. Yeah, she thought. She kind of thought everyone was the devil for a while, was a devil. Ye. So, but I do want to just mention that just because she schizophrenic doesn't mean that she was violent capable of something. But it does seem that her specific case, she might have been capable of something like this, and she might have actually just kind of been guano crazy. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, totally.

Uh see. Also another reason I suspect she could have done it is again I already mentioned this Neville. When they had their struggle, if there was between the two of them, had already been shot four times. She had a rifle to use as a club. She also had, like we talked about before, the relatively fresh blood. Yeah. Yeah, the ones that the wounds in her neck. And it does like in the front the pictures, there's some nice

close up pictures. I shouldn't say nice, it's you know they're but they're close up and they appeared the blood appears to be still fresh and wet and not coagulated. Not that's nice and bright red you know, have that

dried blood. It's wet. Yeah, and it's thin too. That's the other thing, right, is that like, okay, if it is like thick, really gooey things of blood, well, if it was even if it was just a lot of blood, you would assume, Okay, it's maybe it hasn't a jailia, there's a lot there, but it's like it's pretty thin streams because it does appear that she was shot and then fell backwards, so it's not as though, you know, blood was rushing out of her. It was just trickles

of blood. And it does it looks real fresh and well. And the other thing that I will point out that I had noticed is that it is there two bullet wounds and they're pretty close together, but there, you know, they're I mean, it's what what is under the john? What is in the neck? Am I correct? Yeah? And they're about two inches apart or so. And when she fell backwards, you notice the blood runs in the same direction. In other words, the path of it is is pretty uniform.

I mean they start to come together eventually, just because of the calling towards every neck. But it would have been pretty quick, one after the other, right, And there was that burnmark or something they originally there was, but there was a little powder burn there, so she definitely it was it was quick and it was point blank. Yeah. Now it's like that they think the first one was maybe three inches away and then it's the second one

was a contact. Yeah. And you know, I mean again, twenty two rifles don't aren't terribly noisy, but especially if you get it pressed up against your I guess your chin, it's not gonna make much noise at all. So it could have even happened. It probably happened when they were outside the house if it was Sheila. And also the defense team got a blood sample from they found Sheila's bile mom and they compared to her DNA to the

DNA and the blood of the silencer. This is according to the defense team, and they say the blood of the silence here wasn't Sheila's um. So if that's true, then the only real physical evidence prosecution has, which is that the silencer had to have been on the gun because her blood was inside the silencer, and therefore she couldn't have committed suicide because she couldn't have reached the trigger.

That whole theory is out the window. Well, it's also probably worth mentioning that the burn marks that were on her body, right, they were consistent with the muzzle of the gun. Not the same thing with Neville, That they were consistent with the muzzle of the gun, not the silencer. So I think that speaks pretty clearly to the fact that the silencer was probably not on when the attack

was carried out. And you know, and this again comes back to my point of they're not very loud guns and people are a half a mile away, so over the course of let's say, half an hour, twenty gun shots that are from a twenty two rifle in a closed house probably aren't going to be heard, which is why the use of the suppressor is so just off kilter for me. They're far enough away it doesn't have to have been on the gun during this entire thing. Yeah, no,

I mean it would make sense. I don't know, maybe maybe shoot the kids, shoot the kids first and then so nobody else knows. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean, this is of course saying it's planned out, but I don't know, I know you've got more here for for the fact that Sheila is responsible. Yeah, so yeah, there's uh. I think I've mentioned that there's also has found gun experts, as we talked about. And then lastly, if I talked about this earlier, if Jeremy Bamber shot his sister Sheila,

how did he do it without a struggle? Yeah, she had no signs of literally no signs of struggle on her right, not even bruises or anything. Yeah, I mean, wouldn't she have had a strongest sent up to try to at least either fight back or try to get the hell out of the house, you know, And wouldn't have had to go and grab her and drag her back? Wouldn't she have that? They've made a lot about the fact that she had perfect fingernails and no break, no

broken fingernails. Wouldn't she have been like following all over herself to unlock the door and get out of the house and keeps grabbing her pulling her back in? And well, yeah, and I guess that comes a little bit back to me for the I don't know how strong the dosage of the medication she was on. I know it was cut in half, but I don't know. You know, some people are affected more by side effects than others. If she was dru was known to make people very sleepy. Yeah,

so she was heavily sedative. If that was one of the side effects she was experiencing, it would it would be it would make sense. But there's no mention of that being a side effect of hers. So yeah, and it seems like that would be a strong didn't set Yeah, there were there were people that were that had witnessed over the past day or two at the farm and said that she didn't seem seem normal. She didn't seem all drugged out or anything like that. Alright, So, so

much for Sheila. So Sheila is a strong contender. I think I think she actually could be the guilty party here. Let's talk about Jeremy bamber. So what do we got against him? What makes him like he goes to suspect So it's girlfriend. The girlfriend testified against him and said that he said all kinds of stuff. Her roommates testified that he had said that he hated his family. Again, though again that doesn't prove really much of anything year

old bag, stupid thing. His extended family thinks that he did it, and in fact, those guys went to the police with their suspicions a long time before the girlfriend went to the police, and they said they thought Jeremy was a suspect, and he should be a suspect. It appears, you know, he didn't. He wasn't a great guy, but everybody thought he was insincere in his grief and that he was acting at the funerals. Uh. And then of course we talked about the big, huge grin in the

bar after the funeral. Uh. You think in Bamber's defense and Jeremy Bamber's defense, it almost makes me think of Gone Girl. There's that scene where he some woman comes up and says, can I take my picture with you? Okay, sure, and just automatically smiles in the picture and he goes, oh, crap, that might not have been the best thing. And I can just see that same kind of weird brain process sitting in the back of the car person turns around like just kind of moons at him just because he

didn't know what else to do. Okay. But also I will say again, you know, Joe has said this before. We reiterated again and again and again. Just because he didn't like his family, doesn't he kill them? They do not outside the realm of possibilities to say he did not like his family. He just inherited a bunch of money and he was happy that the growth that. It feels ikey to say, but it's totally possible. Just because he was happy his family was dead didn't doesn't mean

he killed his family. Yeah. I don't remember Devon managing to ski herself out in a long time. Been a while. Good job, Yeah, let's see. And he had a lot of like anti character witnesses. One of the family's employees said that Jeremy was quote quite a nasty work unquote. They had a farm, and one of the farm hands reported that Jeremy was cruel to the animals, and then Neville Bamber's assistant, Barbara Wilson, said that Neville said to her once quote, I must never turned my back and

that young man unquote. And he also told her in great confidence not long before the murders that he he felt that his life his life might be cut short and that he thinks it would be Jeremy probably a shooting accident, but he felt like there's a real possibility that Jeremy might be killing him. So that's another reason that's that's kind of suspective. Well, maybe some psychiatrists have have diagnosed it as being a psychopath, although I have

to admit of the psychiatrists have said he's not. I read a really interesting thing, um, because this case came up on read it recently, and that is that the one where there's that mega long post about summarizing the whole thing that about thirteen comments undernew this one was what what case are you? What do you like it? Could this person could be just as innocent as they could be guilty, And one person said, um, you know what the thing is is that I like I just

don't like Jeremy. Member he gives me the creeps, and I'm scared that I think he's guilty because I don't like him. And I think that's a really good thought, because I think a lot of times we're not willing to admit to ourselves that because this person gives me the creeps doesn't necessarily mean that they're a murderer, but it also doesn't mean they're innocent. It's hard this one's a hard one. Are they? I guess are they the only two people? Because I I kind of think there's

a there's a third there's a third party. But no, Actually, I wanted to say one thing about Jeremy, even though I think there's no evidence whatsoever except for one thing, which is the lights were out when the popo, when the pepo got there and Jeremy got there, the lights in the house were out. They've never had gotten up to make his phone call. He would have turned the lights on. I guess it's cause seevable that if she wanted to rampage, she would have turned the lights off

before she shot herself. But he would have done the rampage in the dark well now, but never would have turned the lights on to make his phone call. So he would have turned the lights on, and I'm I'm sure he wouldn't have shut the lights up and gone straight back to bed when he's got a looney sicho with a rifle roaming the house. But I guess he could have turned the lights off to try to hide from her. But he doesn't seem like the kind of hiding guy. It was a big guy, a big strong yeah,

I mean sixty one or something like that. But he was still big guy. Yeah, It's not as if he was a weakling that was going to hide behind a chair. Yeah, no, I think. And it's if you want to, like, if you're running to get your shotgun or whatever, you want to have the lights on so you can see what you're shooting at. So, I mean, I guess it's conceivable that if Sheila did it, that after she got herself all cleaned up and everything, she would have shut the

lights back off. Well, if she herself, I guess if she saw the cops arriving, because it's conceivable and actually likely given the amount of time between when the cops showed up and when they finally went into the house, that she was still alive when they showed up, that she heard the sirens or whatever and thought, okay, if these lights are on, they can see they can see me.

Turn these lights off, or even that she was the female body she played dead in the kitchen right because they were hanging around, she waited until they walked away, creeped upstairs, turn you know, keeps the lights off. That she would have been trying to, I don't know, hide, preserve herself, something like that, or even that she had some sort of episode and realized what had happened and turned the lights off because she don't want to be around it, she didn't want to see it. Yeah, I mean,

all that stuff is possible. I'm just I'm just saying that, But I agree it's it is hinky the lights. The lights are a little hanky. I'm of course it could have been somebody else entirely. It didn't have to be necessarily just La or just Jeremy, somebody else. I think we do. We all think it's the same, do I say? On the kunt of three? Who we think the third person is? What? The cousins. I don't think the cousins did it. No, Actually I think the cousins called wolf.

I think that the cousins cried wolf after staging some things that we see in the photos that weren't there before. Well exactly like the whole the whole silencer thing. I think that somebody went, hey, this got some blood on it? Where where where where I'm whacking it on the thing the mantel, Oh hey I'll take this home. Hey I know you brought that silencer home? Because they did, They didn't leave it in the house. They took it to

their own home. You should call the cops. Oh wow, that's great, Like I can just see it because this family has just got They all got gobs of money out of this whole thing. Joe and I were actually talking about the fact that, um, there's also the possibility that Jeremy may have not done it, but we didn't mention might have engineered it. Oh yeah, we didn't mention that. The dinner conversation of the night was, Hey, Sheila, you're not doing so great. Remember how your sons were in

foster care for a while. We're going to do that again. Yes, she probably did not react super great to that. And under the guise of oh I heard rabbits and I'm gonna go kill them. Jeremy, you know, loads the gun, leaves it out instead of putting it away in the cabinet where it belongs, regardless of his intents, and says, hey, Sheila,

that's not going to go super great for you. And there's there's a gun there, so so or you know new But we all have siblings, we all know how to push their buttons right that he would have said, oh, this is the button I need to push right now, to just drive her by the way. If this happens, your ex is going to end up with the kids and you're never going to see him again, and mom and dad are gonna lock you up, get you committed. So she thinks, okay, my only option is to kill

She calls Jeremy. He says, all right, turn the lights off, you know whatever, right the lights, I'll bring yourself up. I'll be over there, comes with the police. She goes, oh crap, shoots herself, realizes she's the cousins, then realize, okay, uh, that didn't go super great for anyone. But Jeremy's a kind of shady guy. We don't think he deserves the money. We think he's kind of a jerk. And this he did,

so we'll see what we can do. Fabricates, you know, just a few bits of key evidence, and he's in jail for that, and this whole thing is really hinges on a few key pieces of that all came out. That all happily came out after the cousins brought those And you know, your girlfriend had never come forward, this guy would have ever served a day exactly. It was her testimony only, So yeah, I think if that's true, there was four days, right, so they said, oh, hey, Julia,

we here's things aren't going super great. You are you sure? That's what are you? Are you sure? Because here's here's a couple thousand pounds that says uh and a no jail time that says that maybe maybe that's not what Jeremy said to you. You know, for her, she might have realized it was the only way she was going to rule sixes. She had to. She just had to turn over on him and lie. So I'm not willing to necessarily say that anybody is free of guilt, but

I also I don't. I think the evidence points I think it, but then you know, it's it is. It's genuinely one of those things where I think I'm like fifty five, I'm a little more. I'm a little more two thirds to once there then think at Sheila, although I do think it is a possibility that because after all, you know, when you've got a paranoid schizophrenic in the house, is it really a good idea to lead a leave a loaded rifle, particularly when they're probably having some sort

of episode because they've received some bad news. Yeah, there might and their their medication is lower than he normally is, and then your family sprung something. Yeah, yeah, it's like it doesn't make him a murderer, just kind of means he pulled a sneaky one, that kind of crappy. See, and I'm I'm and my is I'm seventy five, that she did the killing, I'm twenty five, that the police screwed it up so badly, and the cousins medaled so well, Yeah, that he was you know, he was the patsy. Yeah,

he was. I think that it's I'm yeah, but he's most likely he's innocent. So that's especially Yeah, when if they see things like the two phone logs said that it appears and damn it, it's so too bad that they erased those tapes, you know, burned all the other evidence. Yeah, you know, and when it comes right down to it, Jeremy Bamber would have been infinitely better off if if his girlfriend had rolled over on him right away. Yeah,

and that all that evidence would would have maybe been preserved. Yeah. Yeah, And so it's too bad for him. And she didn't I'm sure mean to do him any favors, but she she didn't. I mean, what's the word I'm thinking up here. She didn't mean to do him any harm. Well she did, obviously, she didn't mean to No, that was none of it was deliberate. She didn't like, oh, I'm gonna wait exactly a month because I know twenty eight days. No, it wasn't at all. But anyway, the whole thing is just

really ashamed. I mean, I kind of hope he did do it because he's been in jail now for thirty yeah, almost thirty years, you know, so I kind of almost hope he did do it, because if he didn't do it, then, oh my god, that's more. Yeah, it really is. Alright, Well, if you guys have any guys have any other thoughts or theories or anything. I think that I don't really know what I think. Jeremy Bamber may just be innocent. I think it's possible. I think it's likely. Actually, uh, anyway,

well that's that. I'm just gonna do a little, um, a little book keeping here to rep this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want to know what our website is. I'm sure you probably already know, but in case you don't, our website is thinking Sideways podcast dot com. It's a place where you can listen to episodes. You can leave comments so you can check our links to various informational stuff. Um. You can also find us on iTunes. Subscribe, review us

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a couple of them. Yeah alright, bye bye bye, guys,