Thinking Sideways: The suspicious death of Jonathan Luna

To match with a perfect therapist for a fraction of the price of traditional therapy, go to talk space dot com slash sideways and use the code sideways to get off of your first month and show your support for the show that sideways and talk space dot com slash sideways. Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe, joined as always by Steve and and we've got another cool mystery to talk about this week. We're going to talk about the very strange death of prosecutor

Jonathan Luna. Yeah, yeah, interesting case, this one. It really it's it's it's a twisty turney one for what appears to be so simple on the outside. Yeah, it's it's still confounding people. Fifteen years later. The case is still open. It's still a reward out for information. Before I get into our story that I want to just give a shout out to our listeners. Several people suggested this, including Robert Stan, Judith and Monique and probably a few others.

It's yeah, we've had it on our radar for a long time here at tsph Q. So let's start our story. Our story begins on the morning of Thursday, December four, two thousand three, five thirty am, Jonathan Luda, federal prosecutor, was found dead in a ditch in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, just south of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. His body was faced down in a very small creek. He had been stabbed thirty six times with a small knife and also had what was described as a traumatic wound on the right

side of his head. So, okay, there we go. We got our body. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. Before we start telling all the great gory details, I want to talk a little bit about Jonathan Luna. He was thirty eight years old, an assistant U S Attorney at the Baltimore, Maryland office. He was married. His wife was a doctor. They had been married for ten years. They had two kids. They had a townhouse in a suburb just southwest of Baltimore,

and Luna was actually kind of from humble beginnings. He was born and raised in the South Bronx, New York, kind of a tough neighborhood. And but he was always kind of vocation into school unlike a lot of his classmates, and got himself through law school past the bar, had several different attorney jobs until you got this. What I have heard is a really good job at the U. S. Attorney's Office. Apparently it's it's a considered to be a

great opportunity, pretty high at the ladder it is. Yeah, so he'd done well for himself considering where he came from. So he's been doing that job for several years. But unfortunately it all came to it end. On the morning of December four, two thousand three, Jonathan Lena's body was found behind a well drilling business. I'm not going to name them because poor guys, they probably got enough phone

calls about this one. I'm gonna I'm not but that they were on lookated on Dry Tavern Road, which is less than a thousand feet south of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, uh, and just on the eastern edge of the town of Denver, Pennsylvania. Tire tracts indicated that Luda had driven onto the property and passed the building, parked behind the building for a little period of time, and then from there the car was driven further west to the end of the site and into this sort of cricks last ditch at the

rear of the property. And they call it a creek, but you know, and I guess it is a very tiny little creek. And it wasn't as if the car had driven into the just kind of tipped over the edge and front stopped, front tires kind of went over the edge. Yeah, the engine was still running. The car was not you know, wrecked or anything like that. And then Jonathan Luna's body was found below the car, faced down in the water. Driver's side door and the fender

were smeared with blood. There was blood inside the car, including some on the floor on the back seat of the car, a fair amount from like a pool of blood back there, yeah yea uh. And the blood in the back seat, of course, led law enforcement to wonder if perhaps Luna had been abducted, maybe forced to lay down in the back of the car for a while. Yeah, maybe maybe not, we'll see. Um, he was well dressed. He was dressed in a business suit, tie, black overcoat.

His wallet was still in his pocket. There were twenty dollar bills strewn about the inside of the car. Uh So robbery did not appear to be a motive in this particular crime. But it did, and I frankly look like a murder. Yeah. Although oddly, when the autopsy results came back, it turned out that Jonathan Luna had died from drowning and not from being stabbed thirty six times, which is kind of odd when you think about it. But you can. You can drown in an inch of water.

Oh yeah, it's possible, and this is an example of it. Yeah. Well, you know, he would have died of his wounds probably, it was just the water got him first. Yeah. I was gonna say, it's pretty easy to drown when you've been stabbed so much that you're just dying from good point that too, if you're just totally passed out, you've lost so much blood and you're just laying face down in a creek, pretty easy way to drown. That's a good point. Well, so, how did he get to that point,

Let's start at the beginning. The last time, the last night he was seen alive. The night before December three, he was at home working. He'd been prosecuting a drug trafficking case, and on the third day of the trial, he had decided to kind of plea agreement with the defendants. There were two of them in this case. He was writing up these agreements, one for each, so you can have them ready in court. The next morning, he left

us how us around eleven PM and went into the office. Uh. Live very far away, not that far away now, pretty quick. I mean, actually he was really close to a major road free with slash freeway that dumped out right downtown near his office. Uh. And then after that he left his office at p M. He left his glasses and his cell phone on his desk, which is considered odd by a lot of people at work. At work. Yeah, um, it's believed that he needed his glasses for driving, although

I'm not sure how badly he needed his glasses for driving. Apparently, like I see that actually some driving that night, and apparently he did just fine, So I don't think he needed him all that bad. It might have been like some My wife wears glasses, but she doesn't need them all the time, but she really likes to have her glasses at night because it helps cut down the glare and and that and you know, makes it easier to understand road signs. But she can still drive as if

she was you know. It's not as if he was blind as a bat without that. No, no, exactly. I mean I I don't have to wear my glasses when I drive, but especially at night, I do prefer to you because yeah, probably now, it's just it's really a pain to try to read signs after dark, you know, without your glasses on. Anyway, back to enough of that,

but also the phone is considered odd by people. That's but that's people who are posting on Reddit in the year twenty seventeen or eighteen, and people they can't imagine being away from their phone. Yeah this was, yeah, this was two thousand three. When this happens, people weren't, you know, as married to their phone. So I don't put a

lot of weight on that. Well, obviously, the police were interested in knowing where Jonathan Luna went between p m. When he left his office and five thirty A and when his dead body is discovered, so naturally, Uh, they checked of course bank and credit card debit card records, and also toll road receipts, because there's a lot of toll roads on the East coast. We have none out here in the West, but they're just all the well bridges and that's about it. Yeah, and even those are

few in farms between. Yeah, they kind of are. Yeah. Actually, we California has tolls. Yeah, four years chuck full of tolls, and the Oregon doesn't. That's why they have better roads than we do. That trap, yeah, but they have they've easy passes, yeah, exactly, that's that's that's what people do because otherwise if you have to stop and actually give some change to a guy, oh my god, yeah, I'm fifty cents short, Yeah, which means waiting in line and stuff.

So they have easy passes. You just sails through. It's just a little like electronic thing and it links up to the thing and they do some places they do them by um license plate anymore too, because the cameras can read them, and that reading your license plate all the time anyway. So yeah, and of course the extra textually mentioning that because it turns out Jonathan Luna had one in his car. Yeah, he had an easy pass. Yeah. So between bank records and his easy pass records, they

were able to reconstruct his little journey. Uh. And I'm not going to give you the whole timeline, but but you can find it online if you really want to see it. It's in a lot of different places. The brief version is he left Baltimore, drove northeast across Maryland of Delaware, made his way to Newark, Delaware, where he took two hundred bucks out of a a t M and then from nart to Peers. He continued into maybe New Jersey, then over to Philadelphia, headed northwest to the

town of King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Welcome up when nast name by the way, it's great. Yeah, I don't know if you lived there. You call it kop You just call it k or Prussia. What do you call yourselves? And royalty, that's what you call yourself, your highness. So he but he bought gas there. Yeah, he thought there's a there's a little a little thing right off the turnpike. There's not even a formal exit. There's just a gas

station right there. But gas also a snack in a soda, being paid with his either debity, I think it's debit card. And from there he continued west on the turnpike to exit two eighties six, which is just on the front of the eastern edge of Denver and past Pennsylvania. Yeah, Exe Denver. When when there is a town that is the same name as a major town somewhere else, you can get can using so I just want to make sure it's Denver p A. Yeah, it is Denver p A. Yeah,

it's interesting to you. Also went to Newark, Delaware. I never even knew until he researched the story there was Newark, Delaware. Nobody else knew either, even the people that lived there. At that point he got off the exit, he had to pass through a toll booth and pay, and and there he presented a paper ticket. And this is this is one thing that happened is he was using his easy pass when he started his little journey, but then

he switched to cash for some reason. I would wonder if maybe it's because his easy pass only has a certain range. You know, they're only good and certain Remember, so you're here tri met the rail system. They used to have zones and you could pay for zone one, zone one and two, zone one, two and three when you bought things, and I wonderful, how well, But I'm wondering if maybe he was in some weird government paid

program that only allowed him a certain radius. Who knows, It's probably not that important, or maybe he just didn't want people know him where he went. I don't know. And here's question too, is um, you know most of these things would have cameras attached to them. Is it confirmed that he is the one who you know, went and took two hundred dollars out that you did all these little things? Uh, not necessarily, you know. They obviously they checked the camera in the A t M. And

I've heard two versions of this. One says it wasn't working period and the other one camera yeah and then a t M. The other one I heard is that it was working and that he had nobody, nobody with him and he appeared calm and normal and uninjured, so you know, to the two versions of the same thing.

So I don't know. And then the other other place they were able to find footage was at that gas station that he stopped at in King of Prussia, and their camera was working, but he never appears on film there. So somehow he managed to evade that camera. I don't enough intentionally, probably just accidentally. It just wasn't quite putting in the right direction. So yeah, they didn't really have

any footage of that there. There were also a couple of employees that gas station who remembered him, or at least they said they did, and they said there was

nothing odd going on with him. But anyway, he as I said, he left the turnpike at ex at two six uh, and then he circled back on the south side of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, went back eastward until he got the Dry Tavern Road, interesting name, Dry Tavern and then from there, yeah, I know, what's the point, right, But then he goes north and turns on to the property of the drilling place, and you know, we know what the rest is. He is stabbed by somebody or

something and he times weird. But the weird thing about the timeline of his night is it took him roughly three hours to arrive on Dry Dry Tavern Road, straight Tavern, Dry Tavern Road. He took a round about root, right, But if you map the route that he took it's about an hour and a half drive when there's no traffic, So there's a lot of unaccounted time there, and I think that's one of the things that gives a lot of people paw is what was he doing in the

other hour and a half? Well, yeah, there is there is a chunk of time there which is like, I mean,

a lot of that stuff that he was. Well, we caught him here going using an easy pass which saw the A T M here, So that's kind of accounted for because even they would have taken him about that one to get from A to B. But there is that one little patch whereas about an hour or so hour and a half maybe even though just totally on account of time, they don't know where he was and what he was doing exactly, which you know, he may well just have been driving around still or maybe he

stopped off to buy drugs by a gun. I mean, who knows, see a movie. I mean, we don't know. So the so the local authorities, which would be the Lancaster County Coroner's Office, ruled the case of homicide based on their autopsy results. Again, there were thirty six stab wounds, so that is kind of suspicious. Plus there was that head wound, and they don't say, I mean, they haven't

actually released a lot of information. The case is still open, so that means a lot of this stuff is still unavailable. So when they say head, well, I don't know what that means. He was hit with a rock baseball all bad at Crowbar. You don't know. I mean, we just don't know exactly the nature of that wound. Um, so it sounds like it's notable. Most of the stab wounds were very shallow. In fact, you know, almost all of them. They were what they called pricks, just little teeny stabs

and so not really deep stabs at all. But for them were pretty deep. Only one could really be called fatal, which was a stab in the neck that partially severed one of Jonathan Luna's caarated arteries. Those are pretty important major so if Luna had not drowned, then certainly he would have led out from this wound anyway, there's no doubt about that. And as for the thirty two stab wounds that weren't deep, these could be interpreted two different ways.

One is torture. Somebody's just stabbed him a lot, just out of sheer sudism or something, or the other way you can interpret them is is hesitation marks, which we've talked about before, because um, there are those shallow wounds that suicidal people make before they finally work up the will to make a final deep cut. You a lot, though it's a lot typically from what I've heard that there's usually no more than maybe ten hesitation marks and a typical suicide. So thirty two is a hell of

a lot. So that's odd. That would argue kind of for torture, wouldn't it, You would think, Uh. And then also there was the presence of defensive wounds or maybe not. There was a leak from a federal law enforcement agent that to a reporter that his hands were all all slashed up and everything, although it turns out apparently that's not true, that the medical examiners said that all the

stabs were basically run his chest, shoulders neck. See now there's you gave us that article that was what Mr Luna's midnight ride, and the guy who wrote that wrote some other articles chasing this story and said that he actually talked to the mortician that dealt with the body and said that the cuts on the hands were so much that they had first tried to stitch him together for the for the you know, for the funeral, and in the end for the viewing, they had to put

his hands in gloves because they were just so sliced up they couldn't stitch it closed and hide it. Yeah, so that would lead one to believe that they're actually caught up more. And that person also indicated that the cuts on his back, because there were cuts on his neck and his shoulders, they were more around the middle of his back, kind of near his shoulder blades, out what appeared to be out of reach of what a person could normally reach. You how you get that itch

between your shoulder blades and you can't get it? That's the only place where I get itches. Yes, but that's they indicated that there were cuts back there. So that's why I questioned the wounds weren't as bad as as they were. But I've I've seen incredible, very credible sources

that say that all that is. Who has another another claim that his crown him was slashed, and I've heard but then the best it seems like the best sources I've seen it just say that it was thirty six, just around in places that were not impossible or came to reach if he had self inflicted. The wounds morticians also the one who talked about the scrotum having several that did not appear to be anything that a man would normally do to himself. Yeah, now, typically that's that's

not a place we go to. Uh So, I I've got to say, that's that's kind of up in the air for me. It really is. I mean, obviously, if he has a stab wound, like you know, between the shoulder blades where he could not possibly have reached, that sort of changes things, do you know, it really does. But so we're just gonna have to be agnostic on

that particular one. I think so based on our crime scene and the wounds and the evidence of his very long and explained car ride, it looked like, you know, at first blush that Luna had been abducted perhaps and then murdered, But then evidence from the car and the crime scene didn't totally support that. There actually not at all. There was There was nothing found in the car. There was a partial fingerprint that was unidentifiable, and a little

bit of blood that didn't belong to Jonathan Luna. Those are found in the car, but that was it. And other than that, there was no evidence that anybody other than Luna had been in the car. No d n A or hair or fingerprints or footprints or anything. But most of the blood wasn't also at the crime scene, right, I mean most of the blood was in the car. Yeah, most of the blood was in the car. I assumed there was. There was some on the ground and near him,

but it was the evidence. Wasn't that somebody had walked up to him there and stabbed him thirty six times and he had stumbled down right the creek. Yeah? No, no, no, no evidence for that now, and no evidence that somebody had been in the car with him either. Yeah, that would be unfortunate, you know, to be out in your cruise to go to this total place we'd never expect to see anybody and there's Mr. Serial killer waiting for you.

On the other hand, there was no murder weapon there, which would argue was kind of argue for murder because we have a murder we would expect would take it away with him, right, and no murder weapon there. It would also explain why most of the blood was like in the back of the car, not in the driver's that would that would maybe be an indicator. Yeah, but le's assuming assuming for a second that it was murdered,

than what would the motive be? And of course a lot of people wandered, federal prosecutor, did it has something to do with this job? Maybe? So we'll talk a little bit here about his last case because it's kind of relevant. I think this is the trial for which he was writing up the plea agreements on his last evening.

There were a couple of guys Dion Smith, Walter Point Dexter on federal trial for drug possession and trafficking, and this case wasn't going as well as it could have for Luna, which is why he was cutting this plea deal. And you know, people have wondered, could his death have had something to do with this trial, for example, because these two defendants were drug traffickers, one of them was

facing the death penalty. Yeah, people were thinking to have something to do with these guys, and their lawyers actually poo pooed the idea because they said, well, naturally, but actually they make a good argument for this because I mean it said that basically these guys were on the verge of getting a really sweet plea deal that actually was very favorable to them, and so they weren't they were actually happy, so that that might rule them out.

I don't know. But then again, he was a prosecutor, so he would put other people away, so maybe somebody else was Yeah, so maybe somebody else was angry. Um. But of course all that stuff was looked into, and probably his most most dangerous psychotic cases and people like that were all looked at, and they found no evidence to to link anybody to it. Uh. At the investigation ground. On about six or so weeks after the murder of a small pen knife was found in the mud of

the creek where his body had been found. So hey, that's progress. And police say that they believe it was Luna's. They won't say whether it has blood or fingerprints on it. Uh, And they also don't say why they have concluded it was Luna's knife. I don't know if they showed her to his wife or initials that could be that could be it too. I had no idea. So again, one of the one of these days when they closed his case and we can look at these records, we might

find out. But a long about this time, this is a long about February two thousand four as a case grinds on. Of course, it attracted a lot of press attention on the East Coast, which case Jonathan Luna's case. Yeah, yeah, I talked about Dion and so clarifying we're still talking about We're back to looking about the Luna case. I just wanted to talk about a little bit. I'll talk a bit a bit more about Smith and point Extra

in their case here in a minute. But around this time, leaks from law enforcement began to appear in the media. It turns out they found that Luna had a profile at least one internet dating website. Yeah, what was the one, actually, Madison? Yeah, probably that one, yeah dot Com. So naturally that this raised the possibility that maybe he got murdered by something very sketchy woman that he met online or her another

or maybe that too. That always raises that possibility. And they also I found out that he had about bucks in debt from a couple of credit cards at a second mortgage, so you know, bucks, and that's not chicken feed, although I guess for a guy making his wage, maybe it's not a life ending deal either. I don't know. Yeah, I imagine he was pretty well compensated in that position. Yeah. But here's the thing about that is, I also feel

like I would like to make that assumption. But if you have that much money, you pay your your debt off, yeah, you know you usually not always, not always, certainly there are people who are irresponsible. But if it was well within his means to pay off that debt, it's likely

been making a dentiant. If he's the kind of guy that leads the house at eleven o'clock at nine and goes to the office and then leaves the office at midnight to come back home because he had to go do more work, he may have just those kind of details just didn't matter. Let it be on the minimum payment. I'll take care of it eventually until and then he's got an OS moment and you know, take care of it. Well maybe, I mean maybe his wife usually took care

of money stuff. Maybe I don't know. Speaking of his wife. Oh, by the way, it turns out he also had at least one credit card that she didn't know about. Ye, yeah, which is not don't all. Yeah, I'm telling your wife, I have bank accounts that woman doesn't know about. Don't tell her she doesn't doesn't listen to the podcast. Thank god? Yeah, thank god. That the other reason I'm spilling the beans here. Actually nobody she knows listens and I don't have an

insurance policy on her thought, Yeah I do. But anyway, what else? Oh? Yeah, and I don't know how how hanky this is. Apparently he taken a lot about explayed trips to Philadelphia, and he took four just in the month before he died. Nobody really knows why he did that. Yeah, that could be uh, And there was actually had met a woman named Ashley Madison and was going to visit her.

Not the dating website. You just met an actual person. Well, if you're gonna have a dating website, I mean, if you're going to be a Skis and have a dating profile while you're married, it behooves you to have your dating profile, say you live in a different place, so that if your wife for some reason also was a dating profile, or if she goes on to find you, wouldn't that be a rude? And speaking of us, I'm sure there's got to be at least several women in

American named Ashley Madison. And how do they feel about it? I wanted I bet they do. Uh, Okay, where are we at out of that? They really are having a

great time. Okay. There's one other thing I wanted to mention, which is a possible stresser in Luna's life, which is the year before, in two thousand two, he was prosecuting a bank robbery case and some cash was brought into the courtroom as evidence in three large plastic bags and at the end of the day, Luna and an FBI agent had to take it to the vault, the evidence vault in the courthouse. Well, uh, ten days later, it was discovered that one of those bags was missing, at

thirty eight thousand, one hundred dollars in it. There was a little scandal about that made his way into the press, and uh, everybody came under suspicion, including Luna. Even the judge was interviewed by the FBI. The FBI being federal courthouse FBI jurisdiction, so they were investigating this. He investigation was still ongoing, and they at this point had no suspects.

They were polygraphing everybody, and according to leaks from law enforcement, he was about and Luna was about to get polygraphed himself for this particular thing, and so that may have been a stresser in his life. I personally don't think he stole the money, but he might be stressed that this is a giant screw up and a black mark on his record. Oh yeah, well he was the last person to be in possession. Besides that that FBI agents. So yeah. And then one other law enforcement leak came out.

It turns out that law enforcement discovered that Luna had filled out an online application for a loan for about thirty thousand bucks and two thousand two and apparently he canceled the application right about the time that the money disappeared. That left all suspicious And by the way, this is like all these leaks, so I guess I'll give away the game now. All these these leaks, in the eyes of some people looked almost kind of concerted, almost as

if law enforcement was trying to trash Luna's reputation. Of course that doesn't leaks. Yeah, yeah, that that that there could have been a motive, in some sort of coordination behind these I'm not sure that that's We've never seen that with the government operation never ever. Yeah, A long about this time, about early March, law enforcement began floating the possibility that he might have killed himself. Up to this point, everybody was sure it was murder, and now

suddenly the same maybe he killed himself. And there were stories in the press New York Times, Washington Post right about this time, including quotes from famous pathologists like Dr Henry Lee. You guys have all heard of him, right, yeah, and and one other guy who I forget, stating that the shallow prick marks from that I probably were hesitation wounds. So once some of the theory there for so suicide.

He was deep in debt and shaky suspected the theft of all this cash, which at the very least we're gonna damage his career probably if there was suspicions about that. And I heard also that his boss didn't like each other. His boss really didn't like him, wanted to fire him. Although the boss won't comment on it, he's obviously was asked by reporters. And so it was all this stuff enough to kill himself over well, I don't know, not necessarily in my book, but there was one other thing

that was going on. One he won on his last big ride, and that was, of course, we talked about the trial of Dion Smith and Walter Pointdexter for heroin traffic so U and Walter point Extra by the way, it was going to be tried later for murder drug related murder, and Luda was also going to prosecute that. Uh and this is serious stuff. Uh. Smith was looking at several decades in prison, Point Dexter, death penalty and so big thing. Essentially, Dion Smith was a mid level

drug supplier in Baltimore. Point Exter bought from him and used and used that you supply his street level guys that the guys on the corner, and he had a star dealer named Warren Grace. Warren got arrested, was facing huge amounts of time and offered to turn to essentially squeal on Will Smith and pointdex evidence. Yeah, essentially. So the Baltimore p D turned it over to the FBI, the Justice Department. So there was an FBI agent named Steve Skinner who was running that. We're going to run

him as an informant as Skinner. Yeah, yeah, I know I made these same associations. I don't have that poor guy. I'm sure he gets that constantly. I found him on LinkedIn. I think he's still with the FBI. Yeah, And so Luna was supervising this whole operation, and they he dropped a couple of charges against Warren just to show his his good will, and then Warren agreed to be their informant against these two. He pleaded guilty to charges of possession and gun possession also, and he was remanded to

a halfway house until he was sentenced. Now in the meantime, he's gonna be there. He's gonna be there snitch, and he's gonna wear a wire and everything. And he had they had a written agreement he was going to not use any guns or not engaging violence. He was going to not use drugs or sell drugs, going to not leave the halfway house without FBI permission, gonna wear an ankle bracelet. And of course he broke every one of those rules, every single one him. He was out no

time at all. He was out shooting up the neighborhood and selling drugs and all that stuff back to his old habits. Yeah, yeah, so he was. It's it's kind of ironic, you know that they he was there, he was their special informant, and they were really overlooking all this stuff because he was wearing a wire and getting

some good information on Smith and Poindexter. So, but but at some point it seems to me like they got their priorities a little skewed, because, I mean, here's Warren, who was at least as big a menace to society as these two guys are trying to put in jail there, and they're kind of covering for him while they're trying to lock these other two guys up. Now, it really wasn't a good situation anyway. Smith and Point Extra were arrested May two thousand three, both for her own possession

and trafficking. Of course, Walter Pointdexter arrested for murder. That was the murder of a guy named Alvin Jones, drug related as I said, And it was decided they would be tried together for the drug charges and then immediately right after that Point Extra would be charged for the murder, also prosecuted by Jonathan Luna. Well, the trial for the drug charges began to send refers two thousand three, which

is just two days before Jonathan Luna's last ride. This case should have been a slam dug for the prosecution. They had tons of audio tape of both Smith and point exter Is saying all kinds of incriminating things, And of course they had Warren Grace's testimony star witness, star witness, but unfortunately for the prosecution, Warren did not turn out to be as credible a witness as everybody had hoped.

Yeah it or not. And Jonathan Luna approached the defence team at lunchtime on Wednesday, December third and offered them a plea deal. And that's the one he was working on on the night that he disappeared. So this is what's going on in his life today, that he left Baltimore for his big long car ride and didn't have a bearing on him winding up dead. Well, maybe we got to talk about all that in our theories. But before we got the theories, let's take a quick break

for a word from our sponsors. This week's episode is sponsored by Warby Parker, purveyors of fine eye wear. So here's the deal with Warby Parker. Their glasses start at that includes to the prescription lenses, and those lenses include anti glare and anti scratch coatings, which are great because I like most people wear glasses and I'm also in front of a computer, so the anti glare is awesome

for every pair you buy. By the way, a pair is distributed to someone in the now, Warry Parker is making buying glasses online easy and risk free with their Try on Home program, which allows you to order five pairs of glasses, have them shipped directly to your door where you get to try them on and the comfort of your own home and get you know, your friends, your family and the mailman, the internet, if you're into that kind of thing, anybody can give you feedback on

them and you get to try those five frames for five days before sending them back using a prepaid return shipping label, which of course, there's no obligation to buy anything. It's a free It is so easy that a cat can do it. And by that I mean seriously, a cat can do it. I have a cat. She's a ding dung. I had ordered glasses. Just to prove a point, I brought ginger cat in here. I made her push the submit order button. It worked perfectly. So look at that.

And by the way, I really do love many Warry Parker classes because they look good and they fit good. I just look good. Hey, So here's what you need to do. You need to have a Warry Parker dot com slash sideways to order your free home try on today, choose the five frames you'd like to try on, choose your favorite pair or pairs, and have your prescription added to the order. And Warby Parker makes your experience completely risk free because you know, the shipping is free and

it's all it's just awesome. So visit Warby Parker dot com slash sideways to begin your home try On experience today.

And by the way, are you one of those cool people who has the iPhone X. If you do, you can get the warby Parker app and use to find your fit feature, which is this crazy thing where it uses the true depth cameras in the iPhone X to map your face and head and measure some facial feature things, and then it will recommend about twelve pairs of glasses from Warby Parker that would look great and fit your face. That process is seamless and it only takes a couple

of seconds. So again, go to Warby Parker dot com slash sideways and get your home try and experience started today. Then we're back. So we've three basic theories here there were before, but Choopy had an alibife for that night, so sorry choppy haters, but yeah, there it is. Yeah, he was working with Pinkerton's that day exactly. Yeah, there were the series are it was murder or he was murder suicide, yeah, or it was other murder, or it was different murder it's d or maybe an accident. Yeah,

it would be an interesting accident. But still there's a plausible, sort of plausible theory for an accident. So let's talk about murder first. We like murder the best, so we talked about it first. And a law enforceman had three different sort of trains of thought they were following here, and one is said, of course, murdered over his job. Some vengeful x con or perhaps somebody on trial right now,

you know, decided to have him whacked. Or second, maybe somebody he'd met online they pursued that line of thought. Or maybe he just happened to have the bad luck to run into a serial killer. He went out for a drive to clear his head stuff, that one, that one, you know, that one gets taped onto everything. And let's just that I'm really gonna because first of all, I think a serial killer would have chosen a better weapon. So you think, yeah, the pen knife serial killer. Yeah,

well asked for the online dating stuff. Well, they never found any any good leads or real evidence or suspects in that either. And again I don't think. I don't know exactly what he was up to. I mean, for all I know, law enforcement lied about the dating website stuff. Or maybe it was from back before he was married. That doesn't really make any sense. Maybe not, I don't know. Okay, yeah, I think it married for quite a few years. Yeah, I don't know. Whatever. But and that leads revenge for

a previous prosecution, which is totally plausible. He put a lot of people away, and that pisses a lot of people on it really does. Although it would be a kind of a coincidence that that he happened to exactly revenge on the exact day that his career Jonathan in

his career kind of hit a low point. Well but you know, but okay, so I will I will adject to that right now because we're using legal terminology and say that phrase, because you could say that his his career was kind of imploding for the year after that money went missing. If he had been killed four or

died four months prior to that. We were probably saying, well, and obviously his career was on a downturn because he had this other you know, I mean, these cases, it always it wasn't according to Plant well as far as his career, I want, the money wasn't this big problem.

But we'll talk about that in a minute. Yeah, it could be that Smith and point to extra who are on trial just then had ordered to hit on Luna based on the dumb criminal reasoning that if the prosecutor is killed and the prosecution goes away, isn't that how it works? Yeah? Well, I mean, I guess I don't have as much of a problem with it being involved with that case as I think a lot of other people do, because in my mind, you know, they're part

of gangs. It's not as though they were just these two men who happened to be They were part of an organization. And granted they knew and their lawyers knew that they were about to get a really good plea deal, but it could have looked from the outside as though they either it was obvious that Warren had snitched and they were like, well, these guys are going to snitch too,

and we have to get rid of the prosecution. For some reason that makes sense, or it could have been that it looked like to them that the way that logic follows, right, it's not a good logic, but that getting rid of the prosecutor means getting rid of the prosecution, and that it looked like from the outside that these guys were going to go away for a really long time, maybe even one of them was going to have the death penalty enforced on them, and and you know, to

some outside game member, it was worth killing this guy to get rid of that. I mean, I don't think the plea deal itself negates their threat or somebody that they cared about them threat. Yeah, I would take a remarkably dumb criminal thank But maybe they were. The thinking process was like, well, if we whacked the prosecutor, then all any other prosecutor will be afraid to take this case, and so they'll just decide to plead it out. Or criminals are often very dumb. We have seen that work.

I mean, if you think about all of the judge killings that happened in South America for years and years, who the guys who would prosecute, would prosecute. I mean this, this thinking is out there and there is a set logic to prove that sometimes it works. Yeah, I think this is a little early in the process to try to these guys exactly that action. But yeah, these guys were not big enough for rich enough. They weren't Pablo Escobar, you know. They well, in fairness, Pablo Escobar wasn't always

Pablo Escobar. He started out small too. Yeah, so they could have been the next Pablo Escobar. Maybe they were angle to be Pablo. Yeah, I hope not. We don't need that here. But there was one up that I have with the murder theory, which is that, as I mentioned before, no evidence was found in the car to

suggest anything that anybody had been in it. Tire tracks don't indicate a second vehicle to scene, so had the killer get away you know, there were no footprints, like saying the mud at the edge of the creek that didn't belong to Jonathan Luna. Yeah, I guess I don't. I also don't have as bigger problem with you because there's so much time on accounting for in his night yea, and particularly near the end of his night that we don't.

It's possible that he could have, you know, been meeting somebody on the side of the road, gotten stabbed a bunch of hopped back in his car or fallen into his car or whatever, and then I'm like, oh, God, been super disoriented and kind of run into a Yeah, I mean, there is that possibility. I mean it, It doesn't The evidence does indicate, like I said, that he drove behind the building and then stopped the car, and then the car goes again and goes into the creek.

So maybe somebody attacks him there at that spot where he stopped, And yeah, I had the exact same thought that the fight goes on. I still think the blood in the back seat is the thing that makes me think that he had to have been in the back seat, because if it's his hands and then his neck and all of that, they would have to be a lot of blood soaking through the seat for it to reach the back of the car. On the floorboard can kind

of go down between the back and the bottom. Yeah, okay, But to me, it indicates more that he was in the rear of the car for some reason. So then whatever happens, whoever does it, walks away and then he clambers his way into the driver's seat to try and get away, but all he's able to do is is we just said, knock it into gear, and the car just idols forwards until it thunks off the edge and it gets high centered and can't keep going, and he

gets out and stumbles into the creek or something like that. Yeah, like that girl that wrecked in front of my house. You know, it gets all drunkenly tried to figure out what's going on, except he is literally dying and falls off the edge of the creek. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. But then there's there's the knife. So what happens is that maybe the killer walks up to him, you know, and where he's laying face down in the in the mud in the water, and drops the knife next to him.

Maybe they didn't find it until six weeks later. It could have been planted, or that could have also not been the murder weapon. We don't know. It could have been a random pen knife, could have been one that he had in his breast pocket all the time and just fell out as he fell, and it was neutruly buoyant like hard drives, and so it floated the whole

It floated a while down stream. Yeah, speaking of hard drives lost and found, this one did sort of happen right around the time that rag Rick or yeah, yeah, mr. There there were some a few people that did actually draw some some between suggestions for the Lunar case came in like wildfire after yeah, yeah, I know, um, well so that's it for murder for now, but let's get

let's go onto something else, accident. This is a hypothesis that law enforcement came up with, was which was given his problems, especially with you know, the cash thing and everything else. But he might have Lunar might have stage his own abduction and employed to kind of gain sympathy and maybe diverse of attention from his poor performance in the trial that was going on that week. And also,

of course there's the whole money thing. And even if he wasn't guilty of stealing the money, just for me taking a polygraph, especially something that would be a kind of career ending kind of thing, would be stressful enough, even especially because it turns out polygraphs, no, they're not, they're not at all. You know that All the measure is how nervous you are, not how truthful you are. So that's as it really isn't fair in a lot

of ways. Perhaps he takes a drive to clear his head a little bit, hatches this idea of faking and inbduction, gets out his pocket and I started sticking himself to make it look like he'd been tortured, you know, by some by his abductor. Yeah. Yeah, it drives aroun until he finds a suitable place where he stabs himself more deeply to make it look like a real attempted murder. But unfortunately for him, he screwed up and severed his caroated artery starts bleeding like a stuck pig loops. Didn't

mean to do that exactly. And of course, as you know, if you cut the crodd artery, not only do you bleed a lot, but your blood flow to your brain is cut off, diverted well as I mean, you still got the one on the other side, that's still but still you know your capacity. That's not good, not good at all. Yeah, he might not have been too clear headed in his final moments. What that might explain why the car winds up partially in the ditch and he

wants to face down. Maybe he thought would be a good idea to get out and stumble into the ditch for some reason. Again, his brain probably wasn't working a capacity falls down listen, I can I can see where this theory is going. This is much like what's his name Anthony Leaner years ago when he said I was hiking the Appalachian Trail because it was the first thing that he thought of to try to get out of trouble.

And this could be the same thing. Ray Ray Greek r Jonathan Luna is suddenly like, what do I do? What do I do? I'm I'm gonna get attacked. I'm just gonna get attacked. But it's just it's such a screwy idea, and it took him so long to go about it that it it seems him. It doesn't seem like it's a real idea. If somebody does this, you would think they would just like drive off into the hood and cut themselves up and then dial nine one one and say I've been attacked, because that's an easy

way to get out of it. This seems like a long drive and a lot of stuff to do for going and starting his sympathy campaign. Yeah, I mean, it definitely would have made more sense to um, really, you know, I mean, just go down and pick a fight with some homeless guys and get beat up real bad and then and then go like, just throw yourself down in an alley where the pool you will find. I'm gonna say, for a guy like Luna in Baltimore, it probably would

not be so hard to get real beat up. Probably not actually, probably less painful than cutting yourself thirty six times the hands. Yes, that's it's just it's illogical. Yeah, this one is not impossible at all, but it's it's a little bit of a stretch, I would say. Yeah, well, so we don't murder with an accident, was left from suicide. So we already talked a bit about some of the stressors and Luna's life that might have made him want

to take his own life. Yeah again, we're talking possible marriage issues, debt, legal jeopardy from the missing thirty eight thousand bucks. His boss didn't like him, His job was maybe in jeopardy also, and I haven't gotten into it too deeply. Yeah, but let's talk about this now. Which was his very bad day that day of December three

in court? Oh yeah, Okay, had a rough day as I said, the trial at Smith and Point Extra began December first, Monday, uh and from the very beginning, the defense attorneys, well, they had found out something that had been withheld from them by the prosecution, which is they found out about Warren, the new Warren was going to be a witness. And by the way, for folks who aren't aware, especially those that don't live in this country, the rule of law when you're on trial is that

the prosecution shares its information with the defense. Yeah, keep things hidden. Yeah, this is called discovery, discovery process, and they can't withhold stuff. That's a big no. Now. I believe that defense can to a degree, but not not the prosecution because they're the ones proving it. Yeah, so they've got like, because everything they're gonna throw at them, they have to show them ahead of time so they can you know, defend against come up with an argument

against it. Right, So our boy is being a jerk and going around and selling drugs and doing all of the definite neighborhood possibly you know, there's some intimation that he might have murdered as a person or two. Oh yeah, yeah, well I don't think he did that. When he was wearing the wire. And he also he also wasn't wearing his ankle bracelet either. He took that off whenever he felt like it. Again. You know, it's funny. I always thought those things couldn't just be removed, but maybe it

was an early model. Apparently they can if you know what you're doing. Yeah, But the fact that Warren had broken the rules of his plea agreement and also the fact that he was a paid informant that I mentioned that he was paid, yeah I did. I Yeah, he was getting paid for this. I mean all those things. Actually those are relevant to the prosecutor that because they go to his credibility as a prosecution witness. But the

defense had not been told about this stuff. Well, so they made a stink about it from day one, and as of day two, they actually were starting to raise the possibility that this constituted actually a big cover up by the FBI and the Department of Justice of Warren's

by behavior. The judge, the judge in this case, his name was William Corals, feral judge, basically said that the trial should continue because they still despite despite Warren's lack of credibility as a witness, they still had all the tapes,

so there's still some evidence. So yeah, as we'll go ahead with this stuff now that and and now of course the jury has been informed as to Warren's transgressions while he was an informant, and so I we'll just continue and you know, you can bring it up an appeal, guys. And so they went ahead with that on the morning of December three. FBI agent Steve Skinner, remember him, he

tested Sinner Agent Skinner. Yeah, uh, and he lets slipped at also did another thing about Warren Grace, which I just mentioned he was a paid informant, which again this is the first time that the defense found out about this.

You can imagine they hit the roof. They we're very upset about not having been informed of this because I mean, obviously the guy's getting paid, he's got an incenter to just say whatever the prosecution wants, right, it damages his credibility with a jury, or at least it should, right, he becomes a yes man at that. Yeah. Yeah, So at this point, of course, Skinner went on to to actually admit to all of Warren's violations of this plea deal,

which they had turned a blind eye too. The defense at this point made emotion for dismissal of charges based on prosecutorial misconduct and again on this FBI prosecution cover up of all these crimes of this guy really who should not have been a forortant informant. He should have been arrested and locked up. And Judge Coral has refused to dismiss, but he did agree to schedule an investigation into the way Luna and the FBI had handled their informant.

So this is not good news for Jonathan Luna and also for if FBI and Skinner definitely could be a career in any kind of thing. This investigation into the informant, but also the fact that he had basically withheld evidence. Yeah, and so it looks like he was gaming the system anyway. Yeah, now it's it's it's it's prosecutorial miscon act. Really, And so Jonathan lewn has started that week for just a few days before with this easy slammed on drug case and now two days later it's blowing up in his

face big time. And I'm not a lawyer, but I I think that he could have probably been disbarred for his conduct and withholding that information, it's possible. So we're talking abouh losing his job and just a loss of livelihood. You can't be a lawyer anymore, professional disgrace. And probably a few other people in the attorney's office the FBI were also feeling a little bit of heete. I'm sure an agent Skinner was not happy about how this whole

thing was turning out. Yeah, he didn't want to, probably not, And so this thing had to be had to be made to go away. And this is why Jonathan Luna approached the defense lawyers a little bit later over the lunch break and offered them a plea deal, which would solve everybody's problem, right, And but of course Pointdex, do you remember, he's the guy who's want who's going to

be tried for murder. Yeah, he knew he was holding a strong hand, and so he demanded to charge against the point extra be dropped for murder and literally agreed to this. But there was a hitch, which is that federal law makes it illegal, essentially to plea bargain away a case that is murder if it is drug related. So so then couldn't have gone away. He couldn't actually make the case go away that easy. Yeah, and so he was kind of copying between a rock and a

hard place. And unfortunately for him, he couldn't really gloss over the drug angle of this whole case, because he remember, he was going to prosecute the murder, and he'd already he'd already built his case. He'd already submitted briefs and documents and all kinds of stuff documenting for the discovery process, right the documenting that this murder was indeed very very much drug related. So so he's got to square this

circle somehow. He's the judge. Judge Quarrels was informed of this pending plea agreement, told Luna to have it ready in the morning for him at nine durty the next day. So he goes back to his office to do a little creative writing. But like I said, it appears he was having a little trouble squaring that circle, because when he left his office later that night, the Smith agreement was all done. The point Extra agreement was only about half done. They were found the next day on his

computer by another lawyer in the office. And so Jonathan Lane had perhaps was looking at professional ruin with the way this this case was going. Now, could this possibility of professional ruin and loss of life could have drive a man to kill himself. I would say, yeah, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, it just depends. I mean a lot of it depends on all kinds of

stuff in varnerables. I mean, we don't know. But I definitely I would say that that it was, you know, definitely entirely possible that his very very bad day was the thing that sort of tipped him over into the into the whole suicide thing. And yeah, that had the possibility of working at best Buy. It's not the worst job ever, Probably not, I have Actually that's the worst job. I don't know. I think, you know, the guys have to go down and like dig through poop or probably

a bad job. Oh, sanitary or sanitation workers. Probably not a very fun job. Yeah, they're paid really well, and you gotta you gotta proved that's a union job. I think. Yeah, I forget. I would rather dig poop all day than stand at the in the door of Walmart. Give me the poop. Yeah, let's go back to our case here. And as for the plea agreements that they were found on Luna's computer, as I said the next morning on the fourth, another lawyer in the office quickly finished writing

the point dexter agreement delivered to the court. It was signed, everybody lived happily ever after, except Jonathan Luna. Except Jonathan Luna. Even if the plea deal was wow, a little hanky, it was kind of pretty illegal. That kind of that kind of puts a nail in the suicide theory because if a second lawyer came in and had to finish the plea deal in a couple of hours and it was still up did and they didn't know about Luna at that point, not yet. I don't believe they knew.

It wasn't as if they were motivated, oh well, let's just get this take care of. Because the guy died, then well that proves it the drive of oh god, this whole thing is gonna fall apart. Maybe. I mean, if he's as good as a lawyer as he appeared to have been, I may have known that he could push that through. I feel like sometimes all it takes is a new set of eyes to come up with the way to square that circle, the circle or whatever

it is. I mean, you know, sometimes it's it's it can seem like you know, in his brain on top of everything else. It's like, oh my god, there's no way I can make this legal. I'm already in trouble and kind of you know, in bad shape with things maybe being illegal. If I push this through and it's also illegal, it just adds to the pile of stuff that people can bring against me. I don't know how

to figure this out. And then a new lawyer comes in and it's like, I don't know, Yeah, this is an easy solution in my brain, but other people would

never think of it. Well, and also it maybe if these rumors are true that Luna's boss didn't like him it was out to get him, then lunas boss obviously would catch this for a reason, and it would be the sort of thing that he could actually you know, I don't know how much of a stink you want to make this as embarrassing to your office, so it's one of the things that get it would get Luna fired.

But the other guy, the Odlaire, probably talked to the same boss and said, g boss, what do you want to do and the boss probably said just make this go away. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is that I know the boss's name is or something but um, I mean he didn't like Lunas. So it may be that Luna realized that even if the plea deal could be completed and go through, the boss was going to fire him. But at that point it's the boss fires him.

While it might be a bit of professional disgrace, it's not professional ruined because he still would have his license and theory and it's still able to practice law. Well, unless the boss decided to say, make make a stink out of the whole withholding of evidence and just say, look, I'm going to refer to you for to whatever they have they had their office affairs of some kind, like the office and the office of Professional Responsibility of like

the FBI. Has I suspect yeah that if if you know, you go, you go and say, yeah, I got fired from my last job because I m withheld a lot of evidence and wrote an illegal plea deal. That's going to throw up some flax. You're gonna better, Just like Willie mccraig. People who get fired from those kind of jobs, they go into private practice because then you don't have to tell anybody that I left working for the US government. Because there it's a croc and a crooked, just bureaucracy

and putting away poor people. And I hated it, right because I love the poor. That'll be five. Yeah, well let's uh, but let's talk about let's go back to

the murder theory for a second. Um, so we already talked a second back for us just a second, because there's been a lot of the well I don't know how much, but I know that people that have actually been at least one book written about this case, a lot of intimation is out there that perhaps, uh, it might have been FBI et cetera, d J some people in the government who murdered Luna for the simple reason that, yeah, there was this this big explosive, scandalous cluster that had

come up in this trial, and it was going to because of because of the uh, the defense had found out about Warren Grace's conduct. And the fact of the matter is that they basically protected a real menace to society out there in the street at the instead of arresting the guy. That's a little scandalous, and maybe some people wanted to keep that covered up, and maybe Jonathan Luna basically said, you know, guys, I can't I can't cover this up in good conscious. I can't conscious, I

can't do that. And so they decided, well, okay, Jonathan, and what we're gonna do is find somebody us to write that write that agreement, and we're gonna whack you. So so wait, so you have turned what you initially stated as revisiting the murder theory into a giant government cover up theory conspiracy. You've actually added your fourth theory. Well, and the reason, well it's murder though, But the reason I brought I just bring it up is I don't want any of our listeners to start doing a little

reading on this. And it's like, wow, they totally missed this whole government conspiracy thing, but well I picked up on it. So if you look at that, I mean, what's you know, I could see where if Luna was not going to be a team player, they said, well, what are we gonna do about this? And so they they arrange are going to be killed and then they sort of, you know, they pursue the investigation as good as well as they can, and then they just start

leaking all this stuff to the press. As I mentioned, the campaign kind of a smear campaign, and and and then and then it's like, if they find any evidence of any actual murder at the side, they just sort of quietly, you know, ditch that and and they keep leaking stuff and leaking stuff, and then finally he's just like, I must have been suicide. That's the best we can come up with. So that's that's kind of the theory that's out there. But he was right, I mean, he

was actively writing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well he was, I think, you know, but you know, you never know. He might have had a change of heart. He had at least one conversation on the phone was somebody that we don't know who it was, so he might have had a change of heart. But here's the here's the deal is that if he had a change of heart and just said, look, I just can't write this, then somebody could have said some of somebody else from his office or whoever, could

have just said, Okay, here's what you do, Jonathan. We just need you to keep your mouth shut. You don't have to write it. All you gotta do go to the man's room, go to the dirtiest toilet, drink a cup of water out of that toilet, then go to the er. And you know, because you're gonna be sick as a dog and you've got incredible basically become indisposed, and then somebody else will step been and write it

for you. We'll make the whole thing go away. Yeah, that would have been an easier way driving around for four or four and a half hours in the countryside, stabbing and repeatedly with a knife, you know, and trying to find a good suitable spot for you know, for the final Kudi gras. Yeah, it does seem to me that if the FBI were gonna kill him, Yeah, they would have done a better job of it. You would think it seems like a really random, weird murder, don't

you think. Yeah, I mean yeah, but it's just yea also random and weird. Well, and here's the weird thing is the guy's office was in freaking Baltimore for Christ's six. I mean, it's one of those cities that alternates with like Detroit, New Orleans and a few other places the murder capital. Yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't just take him out again to like one of the bad, the worst neighborhoods and you know, shoot him once it

looked like a muck. Yeah, I still don't think that it was an accident, and I still don't think it was a suicide. No, I agree of the stuff that I have read about, I mean, the cuts on his hands, I'm not in agreement with that, but I can get behind that maybe he did that to himself, though I would think that if your hands are bleeding, you're you're gonna start having a hard time hanging onto a knife

just because it's gonna be slippery. But let's just ignore that the fact that there are some cuts on his head and his his back that seemed to be hard to get to, and his genitals, because again, no, no dude that isn't into that kind of pleasure pain stuff is just gonna willingly start playing with his junk with a knife to try and to misdirected like that. Seems like that's something someone does when they are does dudes

do when they are trying to make someone suffer? Yeah, but no, it is if it happened, right, Because that's the big problem with this case is that we don't know if that's actually what happened. It could be that there it was just a bunch of kind of shallow cuts, you know, around and then oops, a slip and you cut your core artery or you know, maybe do it unintentionally. But there's no there's no real way to know right now.

Someday in the future ideally will will know because if that is the case, absolutely, I mean even without that, I do think it was probably a murder. But yeah, I just don't know why the mortician would have any incentive to lie about somebody slicing up his ghibli bits. Yeah. Again, I don't know. This is this is one of the irritating things is that law enforce was still keeping it open.

I'm not sure why. It might be that there is something really hanging going on with law enforcements, so they're keeping it open so they don't have to allow people to look at their files. Yeah yeah, yeah, there there is a lot of conspiracy stuff about that, you know. And another odd thing too, is that in all the leaks that have come out, all the statements that have come out from law enforcements about all these things, that all these reasons that he might have killed himself, they

never wants to mention the smith point extra trial. It's a possible motivator for for a suicide. Interesting that, don't you think maybe they're trying to expare them a little professional embarrassment. I don't know, but it seems to me that it's bad day in court was as strong a motivator for suicide as most other things that were going on his life, and they didn't even mention it. It's

kind of interesting or something. Yeah, I don't know. Uh so I'm gonna come down on the side of suicide just because I'm feeling, you know, I don't know, kind of a strapper us today. Well, okay, that's it for this week. If you've got any theories of your own, well, you can contact us at our email, which is Thinking

Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. We also have a website, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com in case you didn't know that, where you can find our episodes and you can find links to go you know, by merchical stuff like that. We have links to our Instagram and our and all of our social of all our social media, we've got links there. Yeah. So yes, go to the website, and you can also download and listen to us on

iTunes where you can subscribe. You can give us a rating and review high rating, great review, and you can stream us of course from anywhere, and most importantly of all, Stitcher Premium. Of course, we're on Facebook, where we have a group in a page. Um like, the page joined the group, don't friend the page. And uh we're also on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways and we have a subreddit thinking sideways of course. Oh yeah, and of

course we are on Instagram. We're we're just got posting all kinds of fantastic stuff on much so much and of course Twitter and where there's all kinds of bird based things happening. Yeah, yeah, I know, silly twit. Oh god, you're supposed to make funs about the mystery that we've covered. No, wait till we get there. Yeah there, Okay, well I think it is about that time. Time for the bad pounds, Devin, you got any bad pounds? Yeah, Steve has what. I'm

sure it's been a stabbing good time. That wasn't that great? Yeah? Oh come on, I'm a cut off. That was even less great. All right, I got nothing. I'm not going to make fun of some poor guys murder Sah, that's just because I cut you out and you're upset about it. Yeah, you're out class me, alright, see you guys next Week by Guys. I gotta get into a knife