Thinking Sideways: The Strange Death Of Dave Bocks

or you know, send us an email and ask us. Uh. Submissions are due July one. Don't miss it. Be there, be square. Thanks guys, Thinking Sideways. Welcome. I don't know stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking so Oadways. I am Joe, your host, joined as always by Steve and Devin, and we're of course going to talk about

another mystery this week. Uh, We're going to talk about the mysterious disappearance of a guy named Dave Box, who was last seen working the graveyard shift on June nineteenth, four at the Fernald Feed Materials production Center in Ohio. A lot of people have been wondering what exactly became of Dave and why I gotta tell you that I'm a little I'm a little upset. Yeah, we're wanting to do this one for years, but I never called DIBs on it. It's my own fault because I love this

story as you didn't ever do it. It's exactly. I never called dibbs and I never did it, so it's my own fault. But I'm excited that we're getting to do this because this is a fun one. Well, I've obviously you've been thinking about it too, so you come up with some good think about this for years, and the good news for our listeners is that I get to pretend like I've never heard of it before and ask all the questions you're asking them. So it's perfect exactly.

So thank you both for for your enthusiasm. Glad you like this one, and also I want to thank Caitlin and j w are listeners who suggested this one and anybody else who did and somehow got left off our list of people to thank. Sorry about that. But first of all, I want to say, this story is not about Dave Box. It's about Dave Box. Times about Dave Box. B o X it's the Dave Box has spelled b O c K S. It's a good distinction to make. Yeah, exactly,

And I hadn't thought. I kept I always had it is I put it R and I've always had For some reason, I kept saying Brox. Yeah, it's box, just box, but not box because obviously if somebody was named Dave Box, he would have changed his name to cardboard. But I don't say there is that cannot definitely be a day box, right, Okay, So our Dave Dave Box was a thirty nine year

old who worked as a pipe fitter. He was hired at the for anal feed plant in and he was considered to be a pretty solid employee and a regular fellow. Dave had been married, he had three kids. He had gotten unfortunately divorced several years prior to the time that he quote unquo it went away. And some people, of course, believe he died on the job. In fact, a lot of pretty much everybody does that he died there at but some very important people do not. So yeah, apparently, yeah,

And of course there's a certain conspiracy theories. Should I talk about that? Why wouldn't you say that? For the theories. Okay, I'll say that then. Okay, like we haven't been doing this for years, I know. Al right, Okay, we'll hold up. But can you talk more about the feed production. Yeah,

they're for an all feed production center. As the name applies, it produced feed for large animals like cattle and pigs, except in this case the cattle and pigs were actually nuclear reactors, and so the name was actually technically true but a little bit deceptive. Well, it was because they were feeding the materials into the reactors. I believe that's why they called it. The name had feed in it, Yeah, exactly.

But it was in an agricultural area and uh, and so a lot of people I've assumed, and it was actually built and owned by the government, the US government, and but they just didn't bother to tell people that actually it was it was shaping uranium into like you know, like uranium rods for reactors and that kind of Yeah. Yeah, there was three or four specific lugs and stuff like that. Yeah,

slugs was the one I couldn't think of. Yeah, all these things that they're using to actually fuel the reactors. So they were it was technically feed, it was feed for something something. Yeah, nuclear reactors to right. Yeah, I think the truth finally started to come out in three when the locals finally found out that this innocent looking plant was actually producing uranium, which is of course perfectly innocent to get me wrong. Well, hold on, Joe, though,

so they everybody knew that they were producing uranium. The idea was that they were doing it for reactors for energy. What the big secret was is that they were also making weapons grade nuclear material, which you know, I'm not sure that they were doing that. I think that they took special orders. I think it's okay. So there were six, seven,

eight nine. I think there were technically twelve plants, so they only named one through nine is plants, but there was at least two of them that were doing custom work in terms of shaping and all of that kind of stuff. And what I understood that it might actually be some of those actually those custom shops or custom buildings that we're doing some of the shaping for the

weapons material. Possible, it might be true. I had thought that they were just taking basically high grade uranium, shaping into rods to to put into reactors so the reactors could convert it to weapons grade fuel. But maybe they were doing all those things. I don't know. Yeah, I mean it sounds like that was a big complex and they were doing all sorts of interesting very hidden, yeah,

Indestine stuff, clandestine a little bit obviously. The employees were expected to not talk a lot about what they did. But the plant was there since nine I at least was construction began at fifty one. I don't know. I think it started operating in fifty three, operated until nineteen eighty nine. It's gone suspiciously convenience, so I know for that, Yeah,

it is, I know. But they have taken away and made it a wildlife reserve or something and there's like animals or birds or something, or a super fun site or yeah, well it was a super fun site. Yeah. But where it's where they raise all of our yeah, all of our all of our three eyed gazelles, and are thinking from the Simpsons is probably from there? Yeah,

probably it's nearly. It's called named after the tiny town of Fernal, which I can't really seem to find on the Google aerials, but that's about fifteen miles northwest of Cincinnati, Ohio. The Nasty Uh. It was also known to the locals as NLO. It stands for National Lead of Ohio, which ran the plant for the owners, and of course, as I said, the US government, so it was they sort of ran it on the day to day basis, but still the government made the ultimate decisions as to what

happened at the plants. There's owners and then there's the contractor who runs a pretty pretty standards especially for the US government. Yeah, and so the plant was under control of the Atomic Energy Commission until nineteen seventy nine when the Department of Energy took it over. There were some environmental and safety issues with it, and those had actually been ongoing for a long time. I mean since like the fifties, National LED was reporting problems to the a

C about you know, Atomic Energy Commission. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh. And you know, dust like they had these weird bad cloth dust filters because there was a lot of uranium dust from processing allergy r and so that that would get filtrated and deposited these bags kind of like vacuum cleaner bags almost, and well those things had a tendency to break and spewed dust everywhere, and things like this. There are all kinds of issues like this that were ongoing uh, you know what, can I can I take

us a side for a second. I was thinking about this today and if you Devin, you may not remember this, but kind of in the seventies and the eighties, there was this this mode of well, this is the way it is, and we'll just do this stuff and it's okay. You know, technology isn't really advancing because by and large the general public didn't see technology making huge leaps and

bounds like we do today. Could you imagine what the world would be like if we had all got stuck in say nine two, and for some reason our technology just didn't advance. What a freaking mess things would be in terms of all of the stuff that, oh it's okay, you can pour it into the river, you can bury it into the ground, that doesn't matter. Yeah, well we weren't quite there, and by by two we were cleaning

things up actually well but not everywhere. But my point is like, what would have been if we had just stopped doing and just kept on status quo. But from the nineties it sounds like something to write to the Star Trek people about, Yeah, have him do an episode on that. Yeah, I think they might have plant of the triples. Yeah, Captain's lacks started eight in nineteen seventy two. Oh but enough about those environmental issues which they had, but there we'll talk a little bit more about that

in a little while. Um, but they did have those, but we don't know whether or not they had much to do with Dave Box or not. That really wasn't his job. He wasn't, like I said, a pipe fitter, and his job was to like, you know, inspect and repair various equipment, equipment pipes whatever, like the pipes that were feeding the vacuum tubes. Yeah, he's part of the maintenance crew. He worked the midnight shift. He was the swing yard midnight to like seven am or something. So

his job was straight up maintenance. Pretty much. The plant was shut down and he and his crew would go out and just maintain things. Dave was last seen at their Fronald plant about five am on the morning of June nine. He was pronounced legally dead about two years later. Uh. And so let's start in the night of Dave's disappearance. Yeah, yeah, he had carpooled to work with a guy named Harry Easterling, which usually carpooled with her. Yeah. Yeah, he's a regular guy.

And and actually Harry, if you want to see what Harry looked like, he has has a beard, genial looking fellow. He was. He appeared on Unsolved Mysteries on an episode about this. Yeah, and uh, he and Harry usually met at this restaurant parking lot and one of them would leave their car and they go in one car. On that night, Harry picked up Dave about eleven pm. Harry reported no unusual behavior from Dave that night, except that he had bought to do lunchbox. So, yeah, that's suspicious,

it's exciting. Yeah, and that's about He said something about maybe he was talking about maybe taking his kids on vacation the next summer or something or later in the summer. Harry Stilling said that he and Dave always began they worked in the maintenance room, which apparently was in this thing they called the maintenance bill. Uh. Yeah, it was a special maintenance building. He said that Dave, as usual that day, unlocked his toolbox and left the lock with

the keys in it on top of the box. Dave's assignment that day was to go repair some equipment and plan eight in what was called the Whistleblower meat hooks or Yeah, I don't think it. I don't think so that he wasn't signed a plan eight. I'm not sure exactly. I'd heard, not specifically what he was supposed to do

over there, but he was supposed to go do something. Uh. And I, by the way, I tried to find a map of this whole complex because it's a huge place, and I I guess the government didn't publish maps of it, surprisingly enough, I know I was not able to find one on the website the government facility. Yeah, I mean, like you probably can't find maps of like Vonneville Dam, for instance, can you probably not? I mean you wouldn't. That's not the sort of thing you would want the

general public to be able to snag just in case. Yeah, attention terrorists, pressure point right there, This is where you put the bomb. Yeah, so no map, So I where all these buildings are in relation to one another? I don't know. And of course the place is torn down. You can't even look at it and look at it on Google. It's gone. So we're just gonna have to

wing it on that one. But Dave left his toolbox innimatenance room instead of taking it with him I'm not sure why he did that, but apparently get that on a regular basis. Apparently. Yeah, so he must have just decided what tools he was gonna need and taken them and seems like, I mean he'd worked there for a while. Had he'd worked there for about three years, you probably

go to that point. No, you know, if somebody says, okay, you gotta go fix this certain type of pipe, he says, all right, I need these five different tools, and you know, probably hourly, so like, oh no, if he has to walk back first, if you've ever, I mean, yeah, it's a government job, so who cares if you have to walk back and forth five times? You're still getting paid

the same rather than logging that heavy box. But Joe, I thought he had worked there longer than I thought he had started there, like more than a decade prior to his disappearance. I don't not could be wrong. I heard that he started one but okay, I really I thought that he had been working there since the early to mid seventies. Maybe he started his position as a pipe fitter in eighty one, but he was doing something else.

Maybe that's it. He started out like as a typist or something like that, well, you know, like a general maintenance handyman or something. Yeah, it's okay. I just swore he'd been there for much longer, Like I felt like he had had a lot of career time there. Yeah, I don't know what does What does matter is that this particular night was the last night of his career there. Uh and then okay, what was I Oh? Yeah, I was talking about his toolbox. Uh, it was the toolbox

was there. A few days later after they disappeared, he left his toolbox, went off to Plan eight to fix the radioactive snitch rectifier which was reportedly making an odd sound? Did it? And his his toolbox was missing some tools though right, nobody has said that I can find whether what tools were gone, what tools were not gone, But the toolbox was there and with a lock on top of it. Apparently Dave trusted his coworkers. Yeah. I guess they must have all had a good relationship or it

was company tools. Yeah, and maybe he didn't care a good point, which is the weird. That is weird though, Why would you leave your keys instead of carrying him around? Well, that's the thing is, you know, he gets he gets the toolbox out and it's got a padlock on it, so obviously he doesn't trust people to not steal from it. Then he opens he doesn't trust the day people. I had thought he trust the maintenance people, nobody else. That

must be what it is. Yeah, but so they're probably throwing his tools in the in the the oil vats or the acid vats or something. I think it was funny. Yeah, look at this. Yeah, people are like planting drugs in the air, planting crack. So that night, according to Unsolved Mysteries and Unnamed coworker days so and we never do get a chance to find out who this person was.

He was unnamed. He said that he saw David a pickup truck with this supervisor having a heated discussion about something, but the windows of the truck were rolled up, so the coworker could not hear what was being discussed. By the way, this struct the coworker as odd the windows being up because it was a warm night. So I I have a one. I'm always disturbed when we have a single source for something like that, especially when it comes from unsolved mysteries. But I had heard it as

not a heated but a serious conversation. But I've heard it actually characterized as an argument. Well, I was gonna say, there's there's a couple of different Well what if you look at it. I was thinking about it. It's a serious conversation. It could be a very serious quiet tone, or it could be serious as in one person like trying. It's serious. They're not trying not to cry or something.

But the whole, the whole. The windows were up. What I want to know was the vehicle turned on because it might have had the Well that's what I was wondering too, So the windows being rolled up might have been totally normal. Again, it's a government vehicle, so it probably didn't have a C because they always thought the cheapest possible. Yeah, actually it was eighty four. I bet government vehicles I'll have a C now standard, Yeah, but

maybe not back in those days. Now, I remember my dad being in government vehicles, you know, regular civilian cars and trucks, and they were always the lowest model. It's kind of like you've been in a forced service truck before, how don't you, Joe? I think? So they have nothing in them. Whatever comes, bare bones standard is what they get.

So yeah, but then it gets a supervisor vehicle, so maybe he maybe yeah, yeah, but anyway, again, this is coming to us courtesy of some unnamed audonymous person too, so who the hell knows, And apparently the same person around five am spotted David again and Dave was headed towards Plant four, which also struck this coworkers odd since Dave's job assignment, of course, was in plant eight and we don't we we don't have any records that say that he finished the job in plant eight and may

have been sent to four to deal with something else. Well, that's entirely possible. Also, plant four there was supposed to be a like a safety meeting around seven am, so I was thinking maybe he was headed there early to get a good seat or to take an out. It could have been taken an app or screw at lunch. Yeah, who knows. And I don't know what's in the direction of plant for maybe plant three, Plant five, something else

Plant eight. Maybe you know they're parallels, so it's one, two, three, four, seven eight, and then they're just right next to each other. I am not knowing, it doesn't matter, but yeah, so anyway, that was that was he was. This was the last person who saw Dave alive allegedly, Yeah, allegedly, at least the last person has come forward. Yeah, it was admitted seeing alive. Dave did not make it to the safety meeting. Of course, maybe that's not why he was headed towards

plant form. Maybe, like we said, maybe he was head towards Plant five, Plant three and a half. I don't know. Harry Easterly said that at the end of the shift he noticed that Dave's toolbox was still sitting there with the keys on it, but no Dave. Harry looked for Dave for a little bit, eventually left a message with the security guard to give to day of saying that he was going home, saying that he would meet again

the usual spot tomorrow. Harry thought, Um, he was just figured he'd pick up more work for them, doing some overtime or something like that. Although, God, it seems like, how do you either of you remember what he said? Their commute time was from the restaurant to the plant. I don't know. That's a good I'm assuming it was somewhat substantial. I mean, otherwise that why bother carpool Well,

and that's exactly my thing. Like it also couldn't have been more than an hour, because if they started at midnight and Matt at eleven, but a thirty minute drive is a long way to have to hoof it on foot if he decides to work a couple of hours, like you would think that I understand why Harry called and said, hey, tell him I left, so he could you controle somebody into giving him a ride to his vis Assume that's what happened, that somebody gave him would

have given him a ride, so he didn't give him. And this is in the days, of course, before we had text messaging, although inter company phones are a thing, and so you would imagine that he would have called the switchboard and figured out where the hell he was so he could try Dave. That is, if Dave was working over time, could have figured out where Harry was and called Harry and told him. But I don't know.

Reportedly Dave had a walkie talkie on him there, so I would assume they all have talkies and that's the equivalent of inner office phones. Yeah, so I don't know if Harry tried to raise him in milwaukie talkie. I assume he would have, but I got no reply back because well, I don't know something happened to Dave, so Dave doesn't go home with Harry. He does not, but Harry the next night goes to meet Dave in the

usual place in the restaurant parking lot. Sees Dave's car park there and assumed that Dave was not in the car, seon that he might be in the restaurant getting some food or something. But they did that, yeah, occasionally. But Davids, it turns out, was not in the restaurant either. So

Harry goes to work, looks for Dave. Dave's not there, and so he reported him missing, and they began to search of the premises, which, as you can imagine, would have taken a while because it's a big, big place, and isn't this where Harry said he got to the got to the maintenance building and saw Dave's lock and and everything sitting there were still wide open from the night before or presumably from the night before. Yeah, Dulux still sitting there with keys on it or in it.

So they started the search, and sometime in the morning of the twentieth, that's June twenty, somebody and Plant six noticed that one of the furnaces in the building there. There were several different types, but one of them had suddenly dropped twenty eight degrees in temperature at five fifteen

a m on June nine, Plant six. In Plant six. Yeah, so in Plant six, there were three types of furnaces that I've been able to find out about, and they operated the temperatures between about eleven fifty degrees fahrenheit and about thirteen hundred sixty five degrees fahrenheit. That is celsius hot. It's hot. Yeah, it's really smoking hot. It's like ninety nine degrees celsius. I don't know, but it's super hot. Yeah. It's hot enough to I think make you uncomfortable. Yeah,

at least briefly until you died. Yeah. The furnace in question, at least as far as I can tell, what's called the automated ingot preheat furnace, which contained a bath of molten salt which has kept in a temperature of around twelve hundredgrees fahrenheit. Uh. And this was used for heating and softening and radium ingots which were then squished into around around her more rod shaped form and something called a blooming press blooming machine. Wait, I okay, now is it.

Actually I saw this in your stuff before, and I was confused a little bit here, Joe, because it's not actually salt. They called it green salt, but it wasn't actually salt table salt. But it's it's it's some sorts, but I mean it's metal is and um, okay, there is some salt in it, but it's I guess that's what I want to make sure people don't think that it's the white stuff that you pour on quite the same now. And by the way, sodium is metal. Have you ever seen pure sodium. It's been a while. Yeah,

it's just it's metal. I mean, yeah, so that's salty. You're eating this metal, man, that's okay that you need that. Your body needs minerals, so it's not a problem, just not the heavy kind. Yeah. No, These furnaces took days to heat up and cool down, so they were left on all the time, even of course overnight when the production minds were all shut down and all the rightness

workers are out. It's not uncommon in production facilities. Yeah yeah, and uh, and so in the morning is one of the operators of the furnace noticed a sticky residue on it again. Again this is somewhat apocryphal. I'm not totally sure. I was gonna say, if it is a skin on the top of this liquid hot molten liquid material, I think the term sticky is inappropriately applied because everything is gooey hot. Yeah, are you gonna be sticking your finger

down there to like figure? But I think he was noticing he was on the casing of it, like on the outside and on the inside. And so I'm not really sure where this one comes from because I besides reading, I read some newspaper accounts, and also there was a court case were involving this stuff, and I didn't see anything about a sticky substance or anything like that. But again this is this is again from Unsolved Mysteries. Yeah,

so again I questioned where that's real or not. Yeah. Again, this is not one of those persons too who was unnamed. You know, they don't they only they only have actually two people there who actually are named David, Dave's daughter and Harry, the only ones who actually go on camera and are named. Well, Dave doesn't go on camera, yeah Davis. Yeah, oh yeah, there was a Dave in there. Yeah, that's

the real point. Yeah, different guy. But one thing we do know about unsolved mysteries or not, is they did indeed shut that furnace off so they can look inside and see if there are any clues in there about the missing Dave, because they hadn't found him anywhere else. But it took three days, of course for the furnace to cool down enough to where they could stick their

hands in there and feel around. I'm pretty sure they still didn't do that, but maybe when they finally got around to poking around in the furnace, they did find stuff that shouldn't have been there. There was a set of keys, a steel toe from a work boot, part of an eyeglass frame, and Dave of course did wear glasses, pieces of milwakie talking and a piece of stainless steel wire that had been looped together in three circles. You

know the size of that. No, am I the only one that's amazed that they find these things in a molten furnace that was operating for at least a day. I thought it was suspicious that they found that ring under Clarence Roberts and that was just a fire and

some gold. This is incredible to me. Well, actually I checked out because I was thinking to like, they found the keys, for example, and the keys were not totally undamaged, but I would have expected them to just be a little Well, it turns out like the melting point of brass, which is what most keys are made of, is actually

well above twelve degrees oh yeah, fahrenheit. So this is like that Breaking Bad when he's like, oh, I'm just gonna stick all of this certain kind of thing in the tub because that's going to be stronger than the plastic that Mr White told you? Did you not see? I saw Breaking Bad. I don't remember that particular one when he's trying to decompose the bodies and he has the acid and he's like, I'm going to stick it

in the tub. Yeah, it's like that, right. You just logically in your brain you're like, well, yeah, it's hot, so it melts metal. That's cool. But apparently not it does. It's just not well, yeah, it's just not quite hot enough to do that. So well that actually also the human bone does not disintegrate either. It's it's like it's it would be cooked enough to where it extremely brittle and where it would it would break up in a

in a you know, fragment very easily, but it doesn't. Actually, if you were to like heat a human skeleton of that temperature, it would stay intact. I mean you could crush it very very easily, but it would stay intact. Oh yeah, no, you're right. That's why crematoriums pulverized bones once they come out of the fire. Everyone welcome, everyone totally totally just forgot about that. Yeah, And we don't know anything about the steel wire No, no, no, not that.

And it was d of the size of loops where I think about three or four inches across, and there were it was like one piece of wire but looped in the three loops. Mysterious kind of like clover leaf shape, kind of like that, kind of like a three leaf clover. Uh. I mentioned there were fragments of human bones found in there too. Yeah, that's why we were talking about the human bone. Yeah, crematory pulverizing your bones. Yeah, some guy with a ball peen hammer. Yeah. I don't know how

they do that. If they just have they just take it up to the parking lot. No, no, they actually it's kind of messy. No, they have something equivalent to the the ninja bullet juicer that you have in your home on a much bigger scale that they shoved those big chunks into to break them up. You would think they would just do two big plates that would work. So okay, sorry, so yeah, take yeah, we are totally off. Did the cops get called at this point? Of course

the other police were called. The police weren't called before they cooled it down, though. I think they were called actually right away, but of course there wasn't There wasn't much they could do. But Harry got to work the next day, didn't. Yeah, I don't know if they called

him right away. They might have actually just had a company only searched around that around, and then eventually when they couldn't find him and they discovered there was a possibility that somebody had died into mishap, then they called the police. Smart yeah, and a local depe sheriff it was Victor CORRELLI said that the keys that were found, one of them was to Dave's car. Another one they believe was to his house, but they couldn't tell for shirt because it was bad and damaged and so they

couldn't really confirm that. Uh. And then apparently three other ones went to padlocks, and that's about all they know about the keys. And the keys cost a little bit of consternation for Harry Easterling because he's seen his keys. Yeah, a little odd and I think because we just heard that he saw the padlock unlocked on top of yeah,

with the keys in it. Yeah, and so and so that he had seen them on the morning of the nineteen, two hours after five fifteen, when the temperature dropped in the furnace, Harry had seen them on the toolbox and then like when Yeah, and then the next day when he comes back to work, they're still they're sitting on the toolbox. And yet three days later they found in the furnace. Yeah, which is a little strange. That is

a little strange, Yeah, I think so. Yeah. At this point, so what the authorities knew that was that Dave box was missing. They also knew there was evidence that somebody had wound up in a furnace and plant six something had ended up. They didn't know at that point. It's just the initial or after they had cooled the thing off.

This is like after they cooled it all, after they cooled it off and pulled stuff out of it, I thought you were saying when they initially showed up, Yeah, but there was evidence that there was somebody in that furnace. Beyond that, they really didn't know much. Said the local corner's office wouldn't sign a death certificate because there was a lack of evidence that David died. The sheriff's department was treating essentially as a missing person case, and they

kept the file open. But everybody kind of believed that Dave had died in the furnace and plants six. The question was, well, how and why was it an accident? Did Dave commit suicide or was he perhaps murdered? Yeah, members of the Day's family had said they're sure it was not suicide. Of course they often do um. But his daughter said that David bought groceries for the week, he paid all his bills, planning a vacation with his kids. Right. Yeah.

On the other hand, Dave apparently there did have some issues. Apparently around the time of his divorce, he did attempt suicide. And I'm not I'm not sure how serious an attempt we're talking about here, but apparently I was gonna ask that if there's any record of, you know, did he shoot a gun and barely miss himself or did he do the cry for attention, Yeah, take some pills badly scratch himself with with a safety razor on the risk kind of You know, there's there's a whole there's a

full spectrum. President, not that I'm belittling the act of trying to take your life, but there is a spectrum, and we don't know where he falls in that. Yeah, some people are a little more hardcore about it, a little more de tremory to get the job done. Um, but I don't know. Uh. And but that's for the murders there. And the family does think that it was

probably murder. There's no one really with any motive. Dave was a nice guy, apparently had no enemies except, of course, as I mentioned previously, the Fornald plant did estimations with environmental quality, and so Dave's family has suggested that perhaps he was going to talk to somebody and perhaps suppressed about the situation and maybe be a whistleblower. And so they're thinking Dave was murdered to shut him up. And so so we have essentially three theories. I'm gonna throw

a fourth one in there too later on. But some fun ones will not really fun. But you know that's a because we do it all the time, all right, it's more of it. But now, uh yeah, okay, what our first theory is it was an accident. Dave fell into that furnace. I think personally this is kind of unlikely, but you know, it is considered to be a possibility. Can I can I ask a question before we get too far into the theories. Yeah, okay, I'll pull my

hand down. Um, all of our theories are saying that it's Dave's remains or whatever was pulls out of that furnace was day. Most of our theories are saying that, you know, okay, so what we're talking about until you say otherwise, is the remains or the things that were pulled out of the furnst were Dave. Ye, it wasna yeah, And so the keys were, theres were there, and part of the remains of his work boots were apparently there,

and his glasses or somebody's. So as far as the accident one goes, Nobody, as far as I know, had actually fallen into one of these furnaces before. And I tried to find on the web exactly what the make and model of the furnace was, and so I could see a picture of it or at least a drawing diagram something had no luck. The most specific information I could find was in the court document that referred to it as a quote new sol vat that's n U s a l V unquote. And I looked for I

searched on the web for that when got zip. So that's about it. Have you ever looked at the imagery from UH steel refineries. Yeah, so they tend to either be a long hot trough or they're more of drum is not the word, but it's a giant bucket of hot liquid so that it can then be moved and

poured into a form. Those are the only two shapes that I've ever seen, I mean, and then again, I'm ignoring whatever was on Unsolved Mysteries because it really looked like what they had was made out of storage containers. Whatever they had in that in that video sure looked nothing like Yeah, but I did find a picture of a top loading similar kind of furnace on the web, an old picture and an old manual. It looked nothing

like what they had on their right. But was it like a big square hot pit of turn sometimes, but it had it had like a bunch of apparatus around the top because a lot of these were top loading furnaces and for the unheeded material into the opening at the top. Yeah, but in this case they would put they would put ingots in there, and they would pull ingots out. Nothing got poured really because they would pull them out and they hadn't melted, and they would they

could just shape them. I think they stopped them enough that they were easier to shape. It would be more like the kind of ovens they used for like glass blowing or stuff something like that. Maybe. Yeah, And so as far as I know, they were top loading, but I don't know how to percent for sure they could have been. They could have been frontly. But one would presume that there was some sort of guardrailer really to keep at least the people who are putting those things in. Yeah. Yeah,

I was thinking maybe a velvet rope. I think a velvet rope. You have had a velvet rope around it with a little sign that's safe. Yeah, it keeps to be safe at the movie theater. It keeps the tourists out right. Yeah, yeah, wait, what are what are the little zippy ones they use at the airportnes because nobody gets through those which all those stanchions. Stanchions that works, yeah, Dave, But I think it was a pretty safety arty guy though, and I'm sure they had something more serious than that

to keep people from wandering. You were stumbling in, yeah, and let's face it, you know you don't need to have a lot of brains just to not be falling into a twelve green bolt and salt furnace. And you can tell you it's not like you could sort of accidentally back up and fall any of You gotta feel that heat, right, you're gonna be feeling it, And so I think even in Amiba would have been smart enough

to not fall. So I grew up in an area in southern Oregon and there was I think it was I can't remember the name of the place, but they dealt with nickel, and so they were heating nickel and doing all of these things. And unless you were just in the general vicinity, you were okay. But when you had to be around any of the burners or the have the super hot like these kind of thousand plus degree areas, you were required to put on one of those nice fancy shiny metal reflective heats suits, I would

think so. So I can't imagine that they would just let the maintenance guy just walk up and, you know, start messing around with something. You would have to be appropriately attired. But he also wasn't even supposed to be. No, he wasn't. Yeah, he was supposed to be in plant eight and then later on in plant four. But yeah, so what was either Maybe he was just wandering by saw Dora jar. I thought, huh, I'll go check and see what's going on there. Yeah, yeah, and anyone, and

it seems wrong. I don't like this theory. Yeah, I find it kind of hard to believe that this was an accident. I really do, so I gotta get this one to fail. Agreed, You like that, Steve Well, I don't know. You know, people take ups and salt baths and they say it makes him feel better. He was like, it was a salt bath. I really think this is a terrible theory. And my feet feel crappy. I'm gonna go sleep my feet in there. Well, okay, our next theory,

well they called me stumpy. Yeah, so our next serious suicide. I almost said both side, but no suicide. Apparently, As I mentioned before, Dave had had some issues with the depression. Uh. And of course, as we said, he attempted suicide not just a few years previously, during this divorce, and so throwing yourself into a molten salt vat would definitely solve your problem if you wanted to kill yourself, I mean, be a pretty horrible way to go though. That would

be pretty awful. I mean, we all saw a terminator. We saw how long it took Arnold. Yeah, but he was a terminator. I think a human being it would be like a little quicker, hopefully, but it was still not fun for the little bit of time that It's a good lord, I couldn't imagine, not that there's a way to kill yourself, but that is not a good way to kill yourself. Now, well, you never know. It

might be super quick. It might be that your nervatings are shocked and they just stopped working, and that you're going to go into shock right away. Uh hope, if it were not, we could look a day's computer and see if he did web searches on topics like quote, how long did it takes to die? If you throw yourself That would definitely sound a question that would help

a lot, but we can't do that. No web search is available, and I don't know there's no record that he asked anybody says if you fell into that, how long do you think it to take it to die? But I would think it would be able to really quickly.

But I still would rather just shoot myself personally. I think a whole bunch of other ways about On the other hand, I've seen cases where people have picked even more hideous ways to kill themselves in this I mean, people like soaked themselves in gasoline and light themselves on fire. And here's that guy who you know has tied the rope around his neck and then accelerated the car that was the corpett definitely killed themselves that way, that will

do it. But yeah that was Britain. Yeah, yeah, So there's there's worse ways, I guess, but it just it doesn't sound quite right to me. Uh. And on the other side of things, people have noticed that Dave had just bought a new lunch box, So I mean, you know, if you're gonna kill your stability, what isn't I know exactly you know, I mean obviously you know he was planning for the future if he bought a new lunch box, right,

we didn't. We did actually get this feedback a little bit when we did the more Gate Tube crash though, because we talked about evidence of him having you know, cash for a new car in his pocket. Yeah, And there were a lot of people who kind of came out and said, you know, you know, in their understanding of people who commit suicide, oftentimes it's not like you wake up and say, yep, today's the day I'm going to kill myself. I mean, for you just are like, oh, yeah,

that here we go. Maybe he's sort of been toying with the idea for a while and it's one day for one reason or another, everything just kind of jelos, you say, okay, now is the time. Maybe yeah, maybe something bad had happened with his supervisor and he thought he was a us his job and thought ball just jump into that pool instead of it could be there were you know, just by providence of planning for the

future doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't planning on committing suicide. Yeah, that's good, But I also agree I don't think that he did. But hey, yeah, well, I mean who knows. Uh, Yeah, there were some other stuff. His daughter, of course, said they were planning of vacations. At some point he paid all the bills and bottled the groceries and stuff, and uh yeah again he said, it doesn't really mean much.

I mean, if you could look at somebody's buying groceries for the family and paying all the bills is sort of cleaning up all the bluesse ends. Yeah, you know, before he kills himself. Yeah, planning a vacation doesn't really mean much. I mean, it's that could. I don't know if that means serious planning or if you just sort of vaguely talking about going to Disneyland or something. You know,

it's just we all talk about stuff like that. I mean, sometime in the future conversation how we've been planning on a European trip to solve mysteries in Europe for how long? Now? Four years? Yeah? Exactly? Yeah? Still yeah, no closer to actually no, not likely. It might happen. Who knows, because you're gonna try and kill me. So if somebody steps up and pace it, okay, pace for it. Yeah, there would be one reason to do it I can think of. You know, I would rather again go out in the

woods with a shotgun and take care of business. But on the other hand, there would be opportunities at the plant at fernald Uh, lots of opportunities. And plus, if David made it look like an accident, then he would leave his family a really nice opening for a lawsuit, so and and workers comp and all kinds of stuff. But at the same time, Dave doesn't seem to have gone out of his way to make it look like an accident. You know why, I know we've said this.

Why going to that furnace? That place was known to be full of very corrosive acids, to the point that they had a m what is I suddenly cannot think of the name of the guy who replaces souls on shoes, Thank you. They had somebody on site who fixed shoes for the employees because there was so much acid on the ground it ate through their work boots at an

obscene rate. So they did this for people like Okay, why why did he do that versus going and finding one of the giant vats of acid jumping into that thing. In fairness, though, if you jumped into a vat of corrosive acid, it's unlikely that any part of you be found, right versus if he knew the science of this thing, although more of his bones should have been found if it was his entire skeleton. Well, here's the deal though, that I'm I'm assuming I'm going on a living here.

I don't know the exact compound that they use as salt, but as we all know, salts at room temperature is solid, and it might well be by the time they cooled it down enough to where they could actually get into his search, it might have solidified. So maybe they had to sort of chip through everything and they without or didn't break things up enough to find the smaller fragments. Maybe, yeah, they might not have considered it worthwhile, I will say

had some bones that that might have been enough. They didn't feel like they needed to like chip through the entire thing and try to extract every single bone, which by the way, they weren't going to do without breaking them all up anyway, because by the time they've been heated that much, they're gonta be pretty fragile. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, I but I guess to your point of, you know, finding the super corrosive acid, like if you want it to look like an accident, you still have to leave

some evident the accident. Yeah, but you still think he would have, like, you know, put like a say, a banana appeal on the top of the thing or something. Yeah, something to make it look But in in looking forward at the next theory, if what we're going to talk about after we finished this up was what happened, then why did they throw him in something that would leave materials rather than throwing him in something that would completely destroying.

We'll talk about that theory, but I just want to bring that up now so that we don't forget to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I don't know. But back to the suicide thing. If it was gonna make it look like suicide versus an accident, well you think he would have taken off his hard hat and his glasses at least what Yeah, or maybe not. But you know, if you're going to commit suicide, you don't give a rip. I don't care that I'm wearing all

my work gear. I'm just gonna take and if it's going to be an accident, if you're gonna stage an accident, no investigator says, oh weird, he took off his gloves and his hat and his glasses and then stumbled in like that. That that series of events wouldn't make sense to me. Yeah, it would make more sense that he had an accident and fell in with all of his gears.

But he should have done something. He should have left like a rope or a piece of cable right there for him to trip over something or that that that this cardboards, the sign you see swinging on the end of the rope, and the looning tunes, the cartoons, you should have just done pitched the velvet rope so it looked like, you know, for a little bit, so it looks like somebody had stumbled over it. Yeah, yeah, So

I don't know about this one. About yeah, this wide it's more plausible than an accident, but less plausible than some others to me. Yeah it is, uh yeah, I mean it's it just seems like it's entirely I mean, it's entirely plausible to me. But again, there's not really any evidence for it. But then again, okay, let's look at get that one and maybe move onto our next theory,

which of course is murder. Dut murder, everybody's favorite. So again, assuming that that was Dave's remains that were found in there, not that that much was found. The prevalence theory out there, of course, is that Dave was murdered by his co workers or somebody at the company because he was a whistleblower.

What was he blowing whistleton on either National Lead going to the plant itself, I mean, because again National Lead was running it, but they didn't actually own it, So maybe he was writing out National Lead to the government or writing out Joe. Can you for people who aren't familiar with the term whistleblower, can you explain that for folks?

Is not everybody knows that somebody who sees wrongdoing at your company or within the government or whatever and reports it to the authorities or or maybe reports it to the press. That kind of thing. They're called whistleblowers. Also, you know, one man's whistle whistleblower of course is one man, and there's another man's just playing leaker. It just all

depends a lot of people. People leak constant, Yeah, I kind of thing when you when you leak, you know a lot of people leak for their own personal reasons. And then sometimes people will leak and then when they get busted, they'll try to call themselves a whistleblower like that. Check at the n S A who recently gave some documents to the press and then she got busted for it and uh, and then she tried to claim, Oh, no, I was a whistleblower. No, really not isn't is it,

Karen Silkwood. Isn't she considered I mean, her death is serious, and that's a whole another thing, and that's why the murder thing made me think of it. But isn't she considered a bit of a whistleblower? Yeah? I don't you know she was in a nuclear reactive facility of nuclear facility. I don't I don't remember. It's been so long since

I read anything about that or some people anything. I can't remember if she actually ever actually did and the actually whistle blowing, or if she just died and she was supposed to she was supposed to give statements. I remember them, but I can remember she would be considered a whistle I think I think we're probably beating that one to death. Yeah, let's let's go back to the but but anyway, that was, that was That is one

of the reigning theories out there. But the only problem I have with the whistleblower theories that the cat was really out of the bag by four when Dave died. National That had actually been telling the Automic Energy Commission, and then after that the Energy Department since at least about miscellaneous contamination problems that they were having. In fact, they kept going to the government and saying, hey, guys, this is not a good situation. Like, for example, there

were some massive concrete tanks for radioactive waste. One of them they discovered had some big cracks in it and it was leading leaking radioactive waste into the ground the contaminating groundwater. And National League goes to again the government says, hey, we've got a problem here. Your tanks are leaking. The government says, okay, well, the cracks only go down so far, not all the way to the bottom, so don't fill the tank up any further than the height of the cracks,

and that takes care of the problem. So that was an example of that. Yeah, yeah, that's just one example of that. National Yeah. Essentially, National Lad they did their job, they did. Yeah, and so h as far as somebody from National Lad murdering Dave, there's no excuse there that National lad was they were. It was well documented that they had done everything they could keep the government abreast

and everything. The government just said, hey, we don't care, and so there was really no liability on their part. I I questioned that. I do question that that isn't blaming the boss national national lead. Is that who it was? National led of Ohio. I kind of feel like maybe they could have taken steps to fix things, but not wanting to foot the bill, just kept turning to the U. S G And saying, hey, guys, that was the thing.

Though essentially, you know, the government paid them a you know, a certain amount of money to do this and there and and this was above and beyond really probably what they felt that was in their job description. They just said, dude,

just needs to be fixed or give us money. Would they have even had the authority to fix it, I'm sure if they I'm sure if they had actually said, hey, government, we're going to fix those cracks in that tank and on our own dime, the government would said okay, Or the government would have formed a Blue Ribbon commission and studied it for ten years and then you know, so there's the whole thing about the fact that they were

leaking uranium dust into the atmosphere of the areas. So the you were talking about this before is they had big bags on their ventilation system to capture all of that material. It's kind of like in your home ventilation system we have those funny paper cardboardy things that stopped the crud from going in. It's a massive version of that. Those things failed once a month, like they were supposed to last months and months and months, and they always

failed every month. If you're doing this for ten, for ten twenty years, don't you think that at some point somebody would say, um, we should find a new bag. Yeah, like really, this this vacuum cleaner bag sucks, which the whole system sucked. But then yeah, I I and I don't know. Again, that was reported by the way to to the government. The government just saiday, you know, but I think that whistleblower allegation. Just to get back to what we're talking about, Okay, they were reporting that to

the government and the Department of Energy. It didn't really come out to the public until eighty four, and that's when, as you put it, the cat really came out of the bag. Well, the thing about it is is, uh, yeah, well, that's when the public first became aware of it, but there were actually there were there were things that happened for that as as early as like nineteen six one.

There was a University of Cincinnati study they found groundwater contamination around the plan uh and then later on a year later, the United States Geologic Survey confirmed this. And so it's not like it was carefully hidden within the bounds of just National Lead and the Department of Energy. It's also the six season seventies information transfer. It's a very slow process unlike today. I mean, remember we're spoiled. Something happens and we could technically all know about it

the very same if not next day. Well yeah, of course, this is early sixties. The environment was not as hot button an issue then. But then twenty years later, UM one, the Ohio e p A that's Environmental Protection Agency, they found radio active contamination in the wells around Fernald. That was one, and they also inspected Fernald and the plant itself in March eighty four found lots of violations of hazar this waste laws again, and that was March eighty four,

that was months before Dave disappeared. So we're really what we're saying is that there was no need for a whistleblower. The whistle it was blown. Yeah, so it was blown up anymore, there was no whistle to blow, not really. Yeah, and so that's why I had the whistleblower theory for me. It kind of falls flat. Um, Yeah, I mean, also,

who would he have been talking to. Obviously the whistle was blown as far as the government knowing about it, so he would have been talking to somebody with the press right to out the government, which was not, which was obviously not making it really well known. Yeah. So if he was talking to a reporter, what do you think the reporter would have would have come whoever it was, would have come forward and confirmed this and nobody has

of course. Or maybe on the other hand, maybe he went to the FEDS and just said, hey, there's all this stuff going on, not realizing National Let had already been keeping them all apprized of all these issues anyway,

So he contacts the Department of Energy. He says, hey, you guys have to know about what National Letters doing that plan, Man, it's just crazy responsible And the guy at the government says, yeah, let me get your name and address and everything and then he calls the hit squad, the federal the federal hit squad and knocks him off. But again, why would you do that when it's already the case that you know, it's come out in public anywhere. I mean, I don't know. I don't really have a

good sense of Dave's personality. I don't have the sense that he's this type of guy. But what if Dave was talking with other people about wanting to either like unionize or bring a class action lawsuit against I mean, who knows what kind of sickness and contamination the workers

were suffering from. So had he been kind of talking about, hey, you know, my doctor says I'm inhaling a lot of uranium and that's super unhealthy for me and I'm at high risk and we should probably try to get a settlement from the government and talk to the wrong person. I mean that, you know, if he was the kind of main person championing that. But again I don't he doesn't seem like that. I didn't seem like a troublemaker.

But I don't think he did that because again, Harry Easterling his carpool but didn't say Dave ever said anything about that to him, But Harry, I would stay quiet too, Harry, I don't know anything about also made a point of saying that Dave seemed to know his stuff about what was going on in the in the plants. Yeah, he kept an eye on that stuff. Yeah. And it was funny is that when you read it, you'll say, well,

Dave knew. He would say, oh, if you're working around this thing, stay away from its higher radiation, if you're this this thing, well, but he maintained the stuff, so he like if it was something to say, was one of those uranium dust bags, Yeah, he totally knew because those things were always full, because because they were always breaking.

Like he would have had just general observational knowledge. He could have been someone like me who, um is a little bit of a warrior and likes to don't worry about anything. You're right, but I mean, you know, somebody who likes to be a little more safety conscious and aware of their surroundings, whereas other people, you know, you guys are good examples of this, are a little more prone to be like, let's just go do this thing

and see how it works out. And I'm like, no, no, there's a radiom in those pipes, and you guys are like, oh, okay, okay, we'll put the black Cat fireworks in there. You know, I guess radiation it's fine. I mean, I think there are just people like that in the world who are a little more aware. And uh yeah, we said he was safety minded, so he might have you know, he probably went out to look out for his his fellow worker.

But again I don't think that necessarily he was actually championed some sort of Nah, there's no nobody's reported that there was a good reason for him to have been murdered. Well somebody, Yeah, now, not really. And also if they if they had murdered him, it seems kind of self depeting to push him into a furnace at the plant. Yeah. Well,

and there's scrutiny. Well the problem, of course, I mean this is this story is a bit sensationalized because we've got unsolved mysteries in the mix, which seems to have inserted some details. But you've been looking at the court documents and not all of that stuff is there. Yeah. Well, that's that's it. I mean, if you look get the unsolved mysteries, they know that piece of stainless steel wire

that was looped in three circles. In their video, they implied that the wire had been looped around his ankles and used a lowering men. Yeah, the third loop was used for a hook on the highest and so they could raise his body up and then drop it into the furnace. Um. But the problem is is no press councer court documents mentioned the stainless steel wire. It's only in the unsolved mysteries. Yeah. So from the Cincinnati inquirers able to find out the following things were found in

the furnace. The keys to the keys, to box, towel box, metal islets and toe plates from a pair of boots, other metal bits, and a few toe toe fragmes. They weren't melted, but they found them that the boots. The boots were gone, the metal was still there. Yeah, metal bits and bone fragments. There's nothing in there about loops of steel wire. And then there's the keys. If the keys were found in Day's toolbox but also in the furnace, this could mean somebody took the keys and planted them

in the furnace us. But on the other hand, it could also mean that Da've just had more than one set of keys you could have had work keys and home keys, which would again make give more credence to the fact that he was totally comfortable just leaving his you know, three work keys around instead of saying, yeah, he left his house key and his you know, storage unit key, and his car key, he just like left sitting in that room. He had his personal keys with him,

so it doesn't really matter as much if they got stolen. Yeah, I wouldn't. He would not be the first person that had more than one set of keys. Yeah. I have a hard time understanding why anybody would drop the keys if they murdered him, whether they would go back and drop the keys in the furnace after, because it's it's like a ham fisted attempt to prove that he was in there, they was in there. Yeah, so that's where

it's a ham fisted attempt at destroying the evidence. But again I say, Okay, if you're gonna destroy evidence, you've got a whole why would you dump the evidence because maybe is the body instead of the vat of acids that are available. I mean that like he got murdered somewhere else since someone was trying to dump evidence in there for whatever, And I don't know one of the other bodies that they put into that. I don't know.

Maybe I don't know why they would find bone fragments necessarily, but you know, you could, I guess you could get to the point where you would be kind of a dummy and be like us and be like, yeah, yeah, that's really really hot and molten, so it's obviously gonna melt everything versus the acid, Like, I don't know what it's gonna do, so I'll just throw it in that molten stuff and it'll melt everything. Yeah, maybe they didn't realize.

I mean, there's no way this plant will ever shut this thing down for long enough for anybody to pull anything out of it, so it's just lost in the forever. Yeah, it might have been at whoever, whoever it was, if somebody did that didn't realize that they were they were actually keeping records of the temperature in the furnace, which kind of makes sense that they would, but I didn't realize that it would sort of be at this giveaway

they pushed his body in there. But again, at the same time, if you're disposing and you totally want to get rid of the body, then it makes no sense to go back later and throw the keys in there,

no sense at all at all. And let's say, if you don't really care if the body is found, but the main reason to push it in there was just to eradicate, you know, the indications that you had, say acts murdered him or blunting him to death or strangled him, just whatever evidence figured you're going to survive for absolutely. So if that was her, if that was your motive, then again, what purpose does it serve to drop the keys in there? Why wouldn't you just leave them where

they are a sewer drain on your way home. Maybe it was the ham fisted attempt by the management to cover up what you know they thought was or a ham fisted attempts to prove that he did it willingly. And so well, I'll just toss the keys in where they found him there they think he's at, because that idiot obviously got himself killed. And I don't know, lots of fisting in this. Yeah, I know it makes no sense to me. I but I can only conclude that

m robots, oh god, those things, but I can only robots. Sorry, I'm sorry, we keep interrupting you. I'm sorry. Um, Well, anyway, I think he had two sets of keys, so I think he probably did. I don't disagree with that. Yeah. Yeah, so murder maybe not, Yeah, probably, you know, well, it doesn't mean it wasn't murdered. I'm just not seeing it. There's no physical evidence, but of course there isn't because

well they shoved his body into the furnace. So yeah, actually we keep calling out a ham fist to cover up, but actually it's a pretty dang good cover up that they did. Pretty well. Whatever happened him, whatever evidence might have been there is not there. Yeah. Yeah. As far as motive, well, again leaving inside the whistle blower thing, well I can't see a motive there either, and there's no evidence of whistle blowing, so I don't know who

knows unless he's got dirt on somebody for something else. Yeah, there could have been something else that It could have been just one of the serial one of those one of the security guards was just a serial killer, or the mob was involved somehow and he was spilled the beans on the mob. I mean, you know, really seriously, I mean, if you want to think about murder, it could have been just a random serial killer kind of thing. You know, it could have been just a general heat

of the moment, fight killing kind of thing. I didn't mean the heat of the moment, nice fun, I know, but you know, somebody just losing their gourd and beating the holy hell out even going Oops, he's not breathing. I gotta get rid of in here. Better shove to the furnace. It's the closest place. I don't want to be seen carrying him, right, Yeah, he's heavy, I'm lazy. I'm gonna get rid of him. Well. Also I don't want to be seen carrying him. Yeah. So are there

any more theory? Yeah? One war, which is that Dave was not in the furnace at all. Maybe Dave ran off to join the circus um. But there were some parties that said that maybe he didn't die in that furnace. Among them all State Life Insurance Company, Credit Life Insurance Company, National Led of Ohio, Inc. Workman's Compensation Bureau of Ohio. Uh So, they were all defendants in a suit that

was brought by Dave box family. They wanted him to declare legally dead so they could collect benefits like social security, Workman's comp life insurance, and of course, as I said earlier, than the coroner's office wasn't signing issuing a signed death certificate or any There's no body. Yeah, no body, no evidence approvable body. Yeah, and I don't even know bones like that that have been subjected to that. You're not even gonna get DNA, even if DNA was available at

that time. There's no no usable DNA. It is so cooked. Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine. It's so how the hell do you tell? For share? I mean, most people, most people kind of believed it was Dave, But as far as provident, well you can't. Yeah. I mean, he literally could have gone to a graveyard and dug up a set of bones and thrown them in with his glasses and a pair of his boots. He could have thrown in his lucky rabbit foot for all we know. Well, I'm pretty sure

the bones were somewhat identifiable as human. I don't know. I mean, I mean, if you've seen a rabbit there. I'm just saying, Okay, a little bit of hyperboly, Okay, fine, but I'm just saying, like, for all i'd like, we don't know, we have no way of even probably realistically identifying if they were human or not, because we don't have no DNA markers or anything. They were called they call them bone fragments too. I don't know how big the pieces were. I assume that human bones if you

look at them under a microscope, you know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know for sure, but yeah, yeah, I don't know. But apparently according to according to the courts and everything, they seem to be satisfied that they were indeed human bones. But I don't know how they how they went about confirming that. So did Dave leave town and start a new life somewhere? Um, I kind of doubt it. This is possible. Well, it's possible, but I don't believe it. Yeah,

I really. As much as I would like to call this cover up or conspiracy, I hate to say it, but if that's truly his, his remains in that that that smelting pot or whatever that thing was. I think it was an accident. Industrial accidents have been a lot. If the velvet rope wasn't in place, he may have

walked in. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna rank them in order, in order by likelihood, in my opinion, at least my opinions that the series are number one, suicide, number two, murder, number three, accidents and the accident for me is number three on the list, and last of all faked. His own death is number four. So that's my that's that's where I meant the reason, not saying again accidents. He had no business in plants six. There was no reason

for him to be. He had no business there, And frankly, accidentally falling into one of these furnaces strikes me as ludicrous. It really, I mean, really kind of kind of absurd. I just find suicide a lot easier to believe than accident myself. Devin, what do you think? I guess I don't like any of the theories. Um, I most believe

I think accident. I don't believe suicide. I don't want to believe murder because just like of of the horrors in this world, going into a furnace alive, especially actually if he was murdered, I don't think they actually shoved him in alive because they're at least unconscious, Because I mean, I'm not are you going to wrestle somebody into a furnace? Sure as hell wouldn't do, all right, So then I guess I like murder the most because it's probably the

least painful for him. I suppose. Yeah, I'm sure he was cute, was like blunting and then you know the furnace. He went. That's a good reason I like murder. And I got to admit murder is number two on my last time I and and murder is entirely possible. It's just that we have no evidence. And that's why that's why I'm going with suicide rather than I already said

my night, I'm behind accident. All right. Well, alright, so you guys out there probably have your favorite theories, so you're gonna want to contact us, and let's let us know what they are hand time, right, Uh, So you can send us an email. We actually have email, believe it or not. It's Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. So yeah, way in today. Yeah, And we also have a website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where you can find your episodes which you can download and

listen to. Um. You can also find us on iTunes where you can subscribe. You can rate us, review US, rate US high, review us well uh if you don't mind, uh, and you can stream us all over the place, including Google Play, Stitcher, and god knows where else. Um. And of course we have social media Facebook. We've heard of that, right, So we have a group joined the group like the page, So don't join the page and like the group. No,

join the group like the page. Twitter thinking the sideways drop the g and we are on the Twitter and we have a sepreddit thinking sideways h Any action on that lately, Devin, So okay, there you go. Uh. And of course you can also support us by buying merchandise. So on our website you'll find a link to Zazzle and red Bubble. You get shirts, mugs, stickers, and god knows what else, all kinds of stuff, all kinds of good stuff. Yeah. Murder weapons, I mean a mug could

be a murder weapon. It's not marketed as a murder weapon, now, it's not. It's a paperweight. We don't make murder weapons. Yeah. Uh. And so that's about it. So anyway until next week, folks. Uh, this is thinking sideways HQ signing off. Like I said, send us an email, tell us what you think. Bye bye guys, such a guys. Next