Thinking Sideways: The Naked Murders

name apparent. Sorry, sorry, just kidding, I'm actually Devon. That's Joe and that's Steve. Confused. Uh, this week we're going to talk about a murderous series of a serial of murders, if you will. We've we've done Jack the Ripper, we did the Atlanta Ripper. Now we're going to do Jack the Stripper. This is not Jack the stripper that you throw at the dollar bills. That's not like kind of stripper. It's like actually the opposite of the fun, sexy way

of stripper. Yeah, there's nothing fun or sexy about this old I would agree. Yeah, um, it's all this. This case is also often referred to as the Naked Murders, or sometimes the Hammersmith murders and it was suggested originally by Emily. Thanks Emily. These murders took place between nineteen sixty four and nineteen sixty five in London, England. Jack the Stripper we're just gonna call him Jack, you know,

friendly terms. Sorry. Um, he was the alleged perpetrator of six, maybe eight murders in London, as we said, uh, kind of in the same little area. Yeah, they were in the same same district. Yeah, same district area. And um, yeah, his modus operandi was similar to Jack the Ripper. You didn't, like, you know, carve them open. He did not carve them open, No, but they did help kind of lean him towards the name with Jack the Stripper, that's one of that was

one of the comparisons there. It's easy to We've talked about this off off the Bike before, is that it's it's very funny to me that everybody becomes a Jack as soon as they killed at least three hookers, maybe two, and then immediately that designation gets thrown out. Yes, they are prostitutes, not sex prostitutes. Prostitutes. We don't want to offend anyone. No, Jack did murder prostitutes. Only their naked

bodies were found around London or in the Thames. Quick note, I'm apparently only doing mysteries in London now, so that everybody can be annoyed at how I pronouncing, So everybod he's ready special. And then also as a quick note, if you haven't already realized, this is gonna be one of those shows that if you have any issues with sexual trauma or anything like that, or the kids around, maybe this is not the one because we're gonna start

talking about details. Also, if you're squeamish, this might not be the one either. It's not it's not really a scory as a lot of ones we talked, but there's a lot more kind of potential for actual triggers. Yeah, and this is the This is more cerebral instead of slash slash, slash, bloody, bloody, bloody. There's these are things that you start thinking about, some folks, So please be aware. Yeah, okay, did you turn off nod? Okay, you guys ready, let's

start talking about this. So Jack killed his victims by asphyxiation, but it was kind of a unique form of asphyxiation. Was basically he strangled his victims by forcing them to perform very deep throat filatio. You. Yeah. It's victims were found without their underwear, often until it was discovered like

deep in their throats as gags. Um. Not all of the victims, but more than one of the victims their underwear was found her underwear the very deep in their throat, and they were often missing front teeth, just one or two, but still missing front teeth. Uh. And as with most serial killers, the episodes that we do about serial killers, we're just gonna like run through the victims here real quick.

I'm gonna do all eight in order of discovery, even though you usually see the six that they call confirmed and then the two at the end, even though actually one of the unconfirmed ones is was discovered before. So I'm going to do them in chronologic order instead. Cool with you, guys, Yeah, cool? Alright. First victim, unconfirmed victim of Jack of Jack. I'm not sure that she was actually part of the whole series. Yeah, I'm not sure either. It's hard to tell. I Um was woman by the

name of Elizabeth Big. She was twenty one years old. She was found dead on June seventeenth, nineteen fifty nine. So a good five years before the actual serial murdering started. She was found near the River Thames. Her death was considered by some to bear a lot of similarities to the other victims, namely the the location and the fact that she was strangled today strangled right, yeah really and that never happens ever, yeah never. So. The next victim,

which is the first official victim, was Hannah Talford. She was thirty and she was found dead on February second, nineteen sixty four, also near the River Thames. Are really in kind of near on the shore, I thought, Yeah, she was, yeah, so near the shore, Yeah, near the shore in the water, yeah yeah, uh and it was she was very close actually to the Hammersmith Bridge Um. She had been strangled several of her teeth room saying, and her underwear was forced down her throat really deep down.

That sounds unpleasant. Sounds really unpleasant. The next okay, so all of the rest of the victims except for the last one are official victims. So it's the first and the last suspected but not okay. Yeah. Irene Lockwood was the second official victim. She was twenty six. Her body was found on April eighth, nineteen sixty four, also on the river shore, not far from where Hannah was found. Um, and that really made police think that, you know, oh gosh,

there's a serial killer on the loost. She was also missing some teeth. She had also died of asphyxiation. Asphyxiation, also found without underwear on. I know she's still had her stockings on. I think she's the one that still had her stockings. It was her. It was her, Hannah, one of the two I remember. And they all would have some maybe one or two little bits of clothing on.

Many of them were found with their stock things like rolled down to their ankles, which is kind of weird because they were also missing their panties and that's like a very that's a hard transition to make, just the true. Yeah, except for well, I guess in the sixties, it's possible they were all still wearing Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, is that I think they were all talking, so there is the ability for one to come off without dislodging

the other. Um. Now, I want to ask you real quick, and I know that this will be important later on in the story. Is she was so we were just talking about Irene and she was found on the eighth, but we don't know exactly when she disappeared, correct, Yeah, many of the yeah, unless weeks. There's one one victim that we know when she disappeared, or we think we know when she disappeared. Again, like, there's actually not a way to confirmed that this is when she disappeared. But um,

with with all the other victims, it's hard. You don't really know when there were in missing because they weren't really reported missing because they were prostitutes and that was just kind of the sort of thing. I think most of the people who knew these women just assumed they moved on to other things. That's been what I mean.

I don't know if you guys have ever done any reading on this, but that's one of the giant dangers for people who are sex workers is that you don't because of that lifestyle, you don't make any close bonds, so therefore nobody knows if you're not around, and then so nobody realizes you're gone. And there's a lot of groups that are you know, working on things like that

to try to help that. But that's that's one of the giant dangers, absolutely, yeah, and it's it's also possible again that they might have just gone off for a couple of weeks to work a different part of town. Yeah, I mean that's but that's the whole thing is that with this one exception, which I think is likely, we do know when this person, when this girl disappeared. Um, the rest of them, we don't really know. Yeah, we

just know when their bodies were found. You've got and they were all and we should say, it didn't look like they had been floating for like weeks, you know, it was they were relatively recently dumped and probably relatively recently murder fresh body fresh bodies, not you know, like crawling and gross, not in the water for weeks on end. Yes, but but that is important to point out. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, we don't know when they disappeared.

Next victim was Helen Barthelmy. She was twenty two. Um. She was originally from Blackpool, if that interests anyone. She was found dead on April ninety four, UM in an alleyway in Brentford. And this actually was the so she was the first one. I don't know if you've been keeping track of this or not, but she was the first body that wasn't found in the river or near the water, so she was the first one where the police could actually gather physical evidence that might have been

left behind by the killer. She was a yeah, which obviously people find bodies and alleys much quicker because there are people are going through there than they do on the edge of the river bank. But also there was no the water hadn't washed even Irene's body being on

the shore of the river. It was it was presumed she was dumped in the river and then washed on shore, so the water would have washed away any kind of residue or anything like that, which was actually important because Helen's body did actually have some interesting things on her um. They found flex of paint used in motor car manufacturing or like repainting um automobiles, and the source that I that I found, they actually found cold dust on on her body, and I think all the subsequent victims have

goun cold dust. They found red, black and white paint flex or little droplets predominantly black, and I presume that's why they came to the conclusion that it was involved with cars, because back at this time cars in Britain were primarily mostly black. Yeah, So yeah, Yeah, so they found those flex um and the police felt that it

was you know, from the killer's workplace. They first they started speculating that the killer was was actually like a paint sprayer in the motor industry of some kind, whether it be in a body shop or in manufacturing or whatever, worked in a paint booth all day, Yeah, they thought,

and particularly pertaining to the auto industry. Well, yeah, I mean there's that's the thing is that people may not realize this, but certain applications re require certain kinds of paint, and paint that you put on a car is very specific because it's got to withstand the elements for a long period of time. Very true. Yep. The next victim

was Mary Fleming. She was thirty originally from Scotland. She was found in in the sitting position at the entrance of a garage on July fourteenth in nineteen sixty four. And it was a residence that the garage. It was a residential garage. It wasn't like it was just some random workplace. Yeah. And this was in Chiswick where the police presence was actually the heaviest they were. They were

really heavily patrolling that area. Um, there were again paint flex on her body and the coal dust um as well. Locals reported that they thought they heard a vehicle backing down the street just before the body was discovered, and the police suspected it was a car obviously um, but since nobody had seen it, they actually couldn't confirm that it was a car. They thought it probably you know, people said they thought it sounded like a car. I am inclined to believe it probably was a car. I

am I am too. But what the weird thing about a car backing away is when you get into residential neighborhoods in London, the you know, the house, there's the front sides and then the alleys have the backside with the garages typically in my experience anyway, and those are usually one way streets. So it's really weird that somebody would be backing down it because that means they'd have

to back out into try afic. Well. I mean, granted may have been super it was super early in the morning, but it's still just not the thing that puzzles me is how somebody could hear it and conclude that they were backing up as opposed to just driving slowly forward. Old cars you put them in reverse, and reverse always had a high pitch wine. That's true, there was there was always that really typical high pitch gear speed. It would happen. That's why I think that people is like, oh,

somebody's backing up really fast. That's weird. Well, but I almost wonder if if the killer was backing down the alley, dropped the body and then pulled out so that it would look normal, you know what I mean, like back down the alley even though it's a one way, back down the wrong way, so that they would pull out into traffic the right way. You could have driven down the alley the wrong way to begin with, andze, that's

happened to family. Yeah, yeah, no, no, but I'm thinking he drives slowly down the alley the wrong way, it dumps the body and continues on and people hearing them, they hear him going and uh, and they concluded he must be backing up, since otherwise that means he'll be driving the wrong way down one way street. That's a good points. Good point, although because nobody really saw it, pretty tiny little clue anyway, so let's not worry about

it anymore. Yeah. Actually, so the next body that was found. Francis Brown is the next victim, the one that we find the most about. She was twenty one at the time, and she was last seen by fellow prostitute and friend Kim Taylor, and Kim last saw her on October twenty three, nineteen sixty four, but Francis's body wasn't discovered until more

than a month later, November four. Lucky for investigators. Though, Kim thought that she had seen the man that Francis was picked up by, and she thought that that was the last She thought that was Jack. Basically, she thought that was probably the last person that Francis had ever seen for whatever reason. And they got a sketch of that person. They got an identicate, which was a really terrible sketch, really really very I wouldn't say terrible, very

generic um. But they also got a description of the car. They thought the car was either a Ford Zephyr or Zodiac, neither of which we have in America. We didn't they were a British. They were a Ford of Britain. Only I was curious, so I looked it up. They shipped some of them to the US kind of a novelty basis but they were, and they didn't have you know, it's funny is that a lot of cars have a international companion, so there's one for one name here and

one name there. This car didn't appear to be They look very British, these cars, and they look very little squad round fenders. Yeah that I didn't They also to make these in Australia. Uh No, I don't, No, well I don't. I didn't see anything about this particular line being in Australia, but it could have been. I just didn't see any they were. They were UK. Only somebody's now thinking that Dr Bogol and Mrs Chandler had one

or something like that, you know. But the thing is is because the car lines would be used in one country only, they could take the name, and they did sometimes put them under places. I'm pretty sure that the Zephyr actually got used in the States like five or eight years later on a different line. It was like a model for a very brief time, so they could they would hop from continent to continent that way. But

it's a weird thing that they get away with. There was there was, Yeah, there was definitely a Zephyr I think made in the us, but it didn't look anything like the British one. No, no, And it was the predecessor to the Ford Granada. Yeah, so that's which is a totally different car. But it was also you know, it was ten years later and Devin is now board

by Joe's Steve have Cartile checking out on apologize. Yeah, well, I just want to say, how can you not use zephyrt because it's a cool name, it's a great name. I actually, I really I wish that it's the Zodiac so that at least we have a connection to another serial killing. Yeah. If they you know what, if they ever make the Zodiac car again, people are going to be getting that that's the Zodiac symbol on the hood. Sure they will never do that ever again, probably for

that reason. Yeah, so back to our well know, it's a killer car. Oh god, it was a good it was. It wasn't even a little bit of a good one today. So that's uh. That's Francis Brown. And she, like I said, she was found a month later. Yeah, a month fullmos since she had been seen last. And again it's hard to tell. I think the sense I had was that investigators thought that Kim and Francis were good enough friends that had Francis been free and alive, him would have

seen her in that time frame. Yeah, you know, I almost got the sense of them like living together. So yeah, and I think that I'm not if I'm remembering correctly. I think Francis Brown. When they found her body, it was significantly deteriorated, so she had been probably dead the entire month. Yeah. The next victim was Bridget O'Hara. She was twenty eight years old, and she's the last official victim. She was found behind a storage shed. She had the

same Yeah. By the way, I think if I had this write in another source, I found this was a shed that actually had two transformers inside it. Yes, yeah, I was about to talk about that. Actually, Okay, sorry, So she had she did have the same paint flex on her body. Um. They were identical to all of the other paint flex that had been found. Um. And they were actually identical to paint flex also on a transformer that Joe mentioned bursting my bubble yet again. The

transformer was found just a couple of yards away. It also appeared that her body had been kept warm it was so it was in good condition. So they thought maybe it had been kept cool, but again it's hard since we don't know. People also say they think it might have been mummified in a transformer, right, Yeah, so that was the that was the that was the thing,

that was that was the thing somebody. That's something that I think when we say a transformer, what we're talking about is a big metal box, you know, several feet by several feet that you can somebody could actually climb into it large enough, so not the things that are up on poles. Yeah, yeah, and so that that's a bit of a question. And I've read some places that it was mummified. I've read some places that it was in good condition and looked like it hadn't been dead

for very long. I've read some places that they thought her body was kept cool for a period of time, kept a refrigerator or something like that. So it's hard to tell. Again, I don't think somebody hung out and watch Telly with the body for a couple of as in the cooler, and then you realized the conversation was really droll, and yeah, you're just pulling all of those really fun English words out, aren't. I'm working. I've been watching a lot of English TV. I'm just waiting to

say boot and car park not gonna happen. That happened. So Bridget's body was actually found on February sixteenth, nineteen sixty five, so there's a bit of a gap there. Well, yeah, that's three months from almost three or four months from the prior body he kind of did. It was a

hop scotch. It's kind of weird, yeah, because the first let's see, the first bodies were found within like a week or two of each other, April eighth and April, right, The first body was February, right, Hannah was the first official victim. Oh yeah, sorry, I'm looking at the wrong things.

So Elizabeth was like four years before, five years. So Hannah was found in February, and then nothing until April, and then two in April, and then nothing again until July with Mary, huh, and then the November and then February again, October and November. Well yeah, oh, you're right, right, that's right. She disappeared think in October. So yeah, there was some It's weird because you you think there would be that pattern investigation. There were two real quick right

after each other, and then nothing for a while. So you almost wonder if maybe he actually had to just be more careful because after you know, it was after that second after the third body I guess was found, after the second one in April was found, the police started saying, hey, we know there's a dude out there killing ladies, Like yeah, yeah, they actually they took poured tons of cops into the area, and they they had surveillance vans like you know, concealed surveillance fans all over

the place, and they had women dressed up as prostitutes. Yeah. So they I mean, they definitely took it seriously. Yeah. Oh yeah, and that that might be one of the reasons the whole thing stopped. So guys, you know, it makes the little hard to get away with these crimes from there's thousands of cops hanging around. Yeah, they really get in the way of your hobby, do they really do. It's tend to go off and become like the Yorkshire Ripper or maybe the you know, we're just British novel. Yeah,

you find a different hobby. There's always that. Yeah. So there's one last victim again, it's an unofficial victim, and it was Gwyneth Rees and she was twenty two. She was found on November eighth, nine sixty three, which is obviously later than nineteen sixty five. I'm realizing that this particular earlier. No, I meant later, so she should be in there earlier. She should actually be at the beginning to I'm sorry everyone. She's another outlier. Yeah, she I

can see more than the other one, Elizabeth. I think I see Gwyneth a little bit more. She was twenty two. She was found near the River Thames. She died of strangulation, but with ligature marks, so that was inconsistent with Jack's favorite way of just killing women. Uh and but she

did also have broken teeth. So you know. The other thing we haven't talked about that was consistent among all of these women, besides the manner of death and their occupation, is that I remember looking at some stuff coming across the fact that all but one was dark haired, and all of them, they were all of I believe it's described as short stature, which means that they were five ft three or under. They all looked very similar. Yes, they they Yeah, and they're the blonde. The one that's

the blonde. I can't think. I can't remember the name in the list of which one it is that was a blonde. I just remember the picture different. She She actually is much different than the others. The others all looked to me like they could have been related in some way. So this guy definitely had a type. He was after a certain kind of lady that was really

his thing. Oh yeah, absolutely. And you know, again, the reason that I would argue that I think Gwyneth is probably part of this is that I think I think

there's some escalation. I would be willing to say that Gwyneth is the first victim that he first actual the first actual victim that he strangled her with her stockings um, which I believe is how she died those with the literature marks they thought were from instead of you know, choking her with flacio, and then it just escalated from there because she does she looks a lot like her patterns, you know, looks. It looks a lot like something that could have been escalated into his actual m O. But

that'd just be my personal argument. It might be a first time around and for something this straight up strangulation, and then he sort of develops a new technique after that. Yeah. So the one other thing that I want to I want to bring up just briefly because I don't want to get into much more detail here, but I know that a lot of people are going to be saying, well, wait a minute, if Flacio is the way that he's strangling him, why don't these women simply bite down off? Yeah?

Because well, I mean, but the the easy answer is is if it's in a if you're in a higher position than somebody and you put a thumb in the back of somebody's jaw, it locks it open, and therefore you incapacitate that that ability. So I just want to have that off of the past because I know a lot of people like, well, I would just do this.

Here's the other thing. I don't know. Again, I'm trying to think of like a sensitive way to say this, but when there's something stuck in the back, like really wedged in the back of your throat, it's hard to be your jaw muscles don't work like you think they're going. And that's the last thing you're thinking about. You're trying to breathe. Yeah, oh yeah, yes, you you want to breathe. I understand that there is that that gasp and gag reflexive I've got to get air. I've got to get air,

not oh well, I'm gonna go on the offensive. Yeah, it's also possible that they didn't. I mean, we don't know what the situation was. It's not as though their bodies shown showed great signs of struggle or anything like that. I mean, aside from missing teeth. So you also don't necessarily know what the situation was that you didn't that they didn't realize they were going to die until it

was too late. You know that that there Jack said, you know, okay, this is what we're going to do, and then and they were like, okay, I mean, I guess you're paying me a lot of money or you've you know, offered me a lot of money. And then before before you realize it, you aren't breathing, and you're thinking, well, surely going to pull up, and then you realized and

then you're just it's too late. I'm still kind of surprised that at least a few of them didn't grab some other certain part of the anatomy and well, but there's also frankly, there's no way to know that that didn't happen. Maybe, I mean, there are people who are into that. And that's the other thing is that the I think correct me if I'm wrong. But the big reason that we think that this is the tool that he used to strangle them with is because semen was

found in their stomachs. Yeah, that that is what has led people to believe that that was how they were killed. But we don't know that for sure. It could be that after the fact he grabbed their underwear, shoved it in their mouth and crammed it down there, and in some way that's what they choked on. I mean, we don't know that for sure. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Again, you know, it's one of those things where we like, we don't know who this guy actually is, so there

is no way to know. And actually, actually, now that you mentioned it, in the case of the underwear in the in the throat, that definitely had to been done after the fact. It would have had to because obviously, yeah, she's not going to just sit there, Oh yeah, go ahead and cram that and then pack it in there with your thing. Yeah, she's not going to consent to that probably. Yeah. So that's why that's why there's a lot of questions about the that particular mode of death.

Oh yeah, yeah, And I mean, you know, the other part two is that there were no ligature marks, so they had to have been an obstruction of the airway. Um, so I guess the other thought is not all of them were found with their underwear shoved down their throats. So you know, how else does one strangle someone without like a tumarks? Yeah? Good question. Um, we really need

to get off this line of topic. But the only other thing that I thought about is I'm trying to figure out what have been used in something akin to like a ball gag. I don't think so, because the the amount of tightness that you would have to achieve to actually strangle someone with a ball gag would likely like I don't mean the official the kind that you could buy, just some something like that that was used

as a gag, is what I'm getting at. Why not a plunder or a super ball or something like that. I mean, it's something that's large enough to go in, but but that's I mean, that's but then you have to have a way to get it back out. I'm like, but let's move on. Yeah, just like a coin, yeah, or paddleball. Okay, So let's let's move on talk about the investigational level. Let's do that. The lead investigator in the case was Chief Superintendent of Scotland Yard at the time.

That was John Durose. And it's reported that the investigative team interviewed seven thousand suspects. The population of London at the time was about eight million, so that's like almost one percent of the population of people almost it's a lot of people. It is. They really didn't like having to investigate this. They really didn't. So out of the seven thousand, they identified twenty actual suspects and then they have that and then finally um wild it down to

three people they thought. Um. But Durose had a favorite suspect, and he talked about that in the media. UM, and we'll talk about that in the suspect slash theories. And one quick note to mention before we really get to from into theories splash suspects. UM. He is Kenneth Archibald. He was a fifty seven year old caretaker and he actually confessed to the murder of Irene Lockwood almost three

weeks after um she was found. But his confession was pretty much dismissed because the police thought that there were a lot of inconsistencies with his version of the events. Um. And then also they found a third victim. They started to take him to trial. They did, and then they started and then they this other victim showed up, and then they actually listened to what he was saying and thought, wait, that doesn't make sense and totally dismissed it. Um, So

we won't take him into serious consideration. But that's the sort of thing that you'll you'll see around Uh. And then I get the other I like, I don't understand the mindset of that, really confess the crimes you didn't commit. Yeah, especially when like that. It's not as though I don't It's not my understanding that police like looked at him and they were like, oh, it was definitely you, and pressured him into a confession. It was my impression that

he just kind of came forward. There are a lot of people who do that, and there is a myriad of reasons that they confess, whether it be too you know, because they have some mental affliction that they've convinced themselves, or they just want the attention, or they want a place with three squares and a warm blanket. He was a caretaker I mean he needed a job. Well, but man, maybe he didn't like his job and this was easier, you know, going and sitting in the pokey is much easier.

It's a serial killer, actually, it turns out no, because if you're over sixteen, you get convicted of like more than two murders, you get put to death. Yeah written not today and not today, but don't kill anybody. And sixties they're still a hangman noose. Yeah, they still kill people. As it is possible that this guy actually did kill her, Okay, I mean, yeah, it's possible. He also could have been one of her John's and in some add some connection tour,

but again is pure speculation. Absolutely. The point is he's not responsible. No, he's definitely not. I know I said it before, but the key to being a good murderers to go around confessing the murders you didn't commit and then tell you just developed this reputation as a crank, you know, and then and then go on the spree and and I go kill us, and then go kill somebody and confess to it, and they'll just roll their eyes and show you the door. Yeah, oh this guy again,

yea is Joe again? Actually pretty soon they get fed up and they just throw me in the pokey for one of the murders. Sin. So I don't care if you committed it or not. Now, yeah, I'm sure that there would be some crime they would convict you of, if nothing else, of obstruction of justice or something some random old school law of getting in the way. Okay, So, uh, theories, suspects everything. Yeah, I mean there's like seven thousand suspects. So we better get started. I mean, you know where,

like minutes into the show. Yeah, you better settle in, folks, go to the bathroom, get yourself another drink. Alright, seven thousand you guys, ready, Yeah, just kidding, I have the stadium, pal, I'm ready. All right. So let's start with Chief Inspector de Rose's favorite, who he called Big John. His name not his real name, No, actually, not like nothing to do with his real name at all. I'm pretty sure that the name John is in reference to being a john.

I think that's probably true. Big John's real name was Mungo Ireland. Drose revealed that Ireland had been identified as a suspect shortly after the murder of Bridget O'Hara. The paint flex that were similar to those found on most of the bodies were found on Mr Ireland. I believe that he was actually the security guard for at that

painting facility garage. What I read is that he actually was a security guard who drove around in a van and checked on various businesses from Sorry, so I should have clarified that he was a security guard for many of these places, including the place with it. And also he kept his car in a garage to shift wet. It was n PM to six am, if I recall right, shifts. Yeah, and and apparently all all of these women disappeared between eleven eleven PM and one am, and their bodies were

dumped between five and six am. That's one reason he looked really good as a suspect, and because he had access to a lot of the places and it was kind of on his beat. And there was the interview that from that book what was the book called Jack the Jack the Jumper, Jack the Jumper, And there was that interview with Ireland. Yeah, um where he taught I mean he had a car. Um. One of the places that he did security was that garage that the name

is escaping me. I'm really sorry I've ever described Oh see, you get the windy autos. Yeah, that was like also a club kind of Maybe. I don't think it was really a club, but I think certain I think certain activities went on and there at the time. They did. Actually that's some of the people that worked there actually were known to go back there with prostitutes at least once. Yeah,

So it was of a shady business. And he admitted to having connections there and being friends with some of the people who owned it maybe or he I think he said he had gone around for tea every once

in a while or something. Yeah, and then I think some of the other stuff is that besides the paint flakes and all that stuff is According to the polices, his car's registration number was among those that we're seeing by the police in the area where the murder picked up as victims because they had been they had been putting up roadblocks. Yeah, because there's only a certain number of roads that went in and out of the area that the bodies were showing up sleep. They were counting

cars coming in and out, recording them. And if you went in and out, you know, went in and came back out over a certain timeframe at night, they put you on a red list, which is I mean, you know, it's that one's hard because he was a security guard. He did technically have legitimate business and that's what his

job was. But also that's suspicious, I guess. But the you know, the thing that I want to point out the Joe brought up is that, Okay, well, we believe that the that the women were picked up between a certain amount of time, and that the bodies tended to be dumped around a certain amount of time. But that's

that's really thin. Okay, they are working the streets at night, so we know they're picked up at night, but they could the bodies could have been dropped in a number of these locations at midnight or five in the morning. So that's that's but that that's one of the things that they used to tie it to Ireland and to uh not John Mango. And I was about calling John early, which is wrong, big John Mungo Ireland. So to Mango is that because of this time frame, But that's that's

really not all that strong. Well to think about it is is uh Mango is a really good suspect, and that's why John do Rose, you know, was convinced it was because also because after his suicide, the killing stopped. Oh sorry, but anyway, but yeah, they were never actually conclusively able to tie the murders to him at all. I mean, they were never able to prove a thing. Yeah. Okay, wait, let's talk about a suicide. Yeah, let's talk about a suicide.

Um right. I don't have an exact date, Okay, I was gonna ask if you found that because I never could. And you know, I mostly see it as right after the discovery of Bridget O'Hare's body, but then I O other places see it right before the discovery of Bridget

O'Hair's body. So I don't know. I heard that it was actually the precipitating event for it was that they had been making the police have apparently been making some inquiries, and apparently they had examined the garage where he kept his car or van or whatever and found all those things you know, like cold dust, you know, and stuff like that, like they found because he went through the

place where they believed it was all originating from. Yeah, and so when he apparently found out that they had been to that garage and made a made a very minute examination of it, when he found that out, he realized that it was kind of near the end for him. But I mean, the thing is that it's all speculation. His suicide note, I will read what it said specific. It was not specific at all, and it is it's total speculation that we're just foisting on this guy. Um,

his suicide note to his wife. Um, he actually okay, So he committed suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning. He sat in the garage with a window down on the car going and he said, quote, I can't stick it any longer. To save you in the police looking for me, I'll be in the garage unquote. And actually, one of the other big issues with the idea that it was maybe Ireland is that they actually thought that maybe he was in Scotland when Bridget O'Hara was being murdered, not actually

in London, which that would obviously be a problem. That would be a problem. Yeah, that's a big issue again according to Jack that Jack the jumper, and I was not saying this guy's own initiation, but apparently the police police inquiries had established that he was in London during every period when somebody was murdered. Yeah, again, it's hard to tell. They never they were never able to question him because he killed himself before they were able to

question him. And except for that one small interview, as we said before that we also don't know exactly when they disappear. So maybe the guy, you know, the guy, the author of Jack the Jumper, decided, well, this person

had to have been kidnapped beforehand. I means it's I mean, I guess the other There's always with all these serial murders, it's always possible that at least one or two of them are the work of a copycat, especially with one that was so it's they weren't exactly withholding details in the press about this and how all the women were murdered. So it's it's certainly possible that you know, Ireland was responsible for some of them and not all of them

or or whatever. But he he was the chief chief inspector, chief superintendence Drows, he was his favorite suspect. Then he's a good suspect. It must admit that since far from proven. Okay, alright, okay, Freddy Mills, Um, do you guys know who Freddy knows us? Now? Yeah? Freddy Mills was the world light heavyweight champion in boxing from eight to nineteen fifty. I guess I didn't realize that light heavyweight was a thing. Was confused. I looked it up, actually looked it up, and it's it's the

lightest division of the heavyweight. I understand it. So I think it's it's a hundred and fifty to a hundred and seventy pounds or something. How many stones is that? That's like seven at least at least two hundred stones? How big the Yeah, I don't know what are they pebbles? Are they like giant things? I don't know? Antique British weight system? Sorry? Um, So he was. He was a pretty prominent figure at the time. You know, he was

the boxing champion, World boxing champion. He owned a club that had previously been a restaurant in case anybody's going to freak out about that, and he actually began acting a little bit too. He hosted some TV shows. He was he was kind of an up and coming he um. He did some walk ons. He you know, he was kind of he was just doing his thing. You're similar to say Donald O. J. Simpson in the at the end of his foot well career started coming on. He made a couple of movies, made a couple of movies

and TV shows. I would say more like Dwayne the Rock Johnson and then and then yeah, that's a good one. Well but he actually made it well yeah, yeah, differently o J. And then o J got Frank for Murder by the LP. Do you remember that. I definitely haven't found anything from his house recently or anything like by the time this episode comes out, that's gonna be old news.

And it was deep. Yeah. The nightclub that he owned was frequented by some fairly seedy people, most notably the Kray Twins were Ronnie and Reggie and I actually, um wasted a stupid amount of time doing some research on them. They're super interesting, could even be a subject of their own podcast. Maybe there are some unsolved mysteries around the twins. I can't remember. Their name is definitely familiar. Yeah, they're very familiar. And there's a movie that came out recently

about there is. Yeah. And actually we literally just got a suggestion today about somebody who was like, I was doing some research on the Kray twins, and I was like, yeah, I know, it's crazy. Um, and I guess if you have again, without going too far into it. I guess I would say they were like twin al capones. They were famous for gangsters, you know, that was like their thing. They were the beginnings of organized crime in Britain. Britain, if they were the beginnings of it, well they were.

They were the ones who are the best in organization in terms of like their act. They weren't just running together and they were all over the place. Yeah, they were like anyway, Freddie was friends quote unquote with the Cray Twins kind of and things kind of predictably went downhill. It's reported that he suffered from headaches later in his boxing career that continued on after he quit not shocking who get hit a lot in the head and face. Yeah,

I don't know why that might happen. But he was really in debt to his quote unquote friends, the craze, uh, and that of his family. He had a wife and two daughters. So Freddie Mills committed suicide, which seems accepted, but you say that as if we don't know if he really did it himself or without help or so. It's hard for me because and again I didn't like research too much because I didn't want this show to be about the suicide on Freddy Mills. But uh, he went out back of his club to take a nap

in the car, which he did a lot apparently. And also he had been borrowing a not working rifle from a friend. Uh that got repaired apparently, so it was working and it was found outside of his car, and the police said, oh, no, this gunshot wound is consistent with a self inflicted wound from this rifle. But without reading too much into it, I don't. I'm not satisfied by that. I have no idea. Like I said, I

didn't do that much research and focus, isn't it. But it was my general impression that I did not off handedly immediately accepted that it was a suicide. But the reading of all of the research that I did didn't necessarily explicitly say like a contested suicide. They just said committed suicide. Okay, So why why is Freddie on this list? Yeah? Well, if you stop interrupting me, I tell you come on. Yeah, jeez, as you're blathering on a rifle. So it actually wasn't.

So it wasn't until after his death in nineteen five that these negative rumors started to circulate about him. There were a lot of negative rumors that started to circulate about him, but a lot of them actually were kind of collected in this book that came out in two thousand two about Freddie exclusively, or about the craze, or about it was about Freddy. Um, well, I was it was actually it's about Jack the stripper, but it was the one to like make the connection to say that

they thought maybe it was Freddy. But I have a lot of problems with this. But to to say some of the allegations, one of the allegations was that Freddie had been actually in a homosexual relationship with Ronnie Cray. Not think there's anything wrong with that, not that who was openly bisexual, Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it would add a layer of complexity to that relationship,

especially in that time frame it was. It also started to be rumored that Freddie had killed eight women and that he was about to be exposed as a stripper, so he killed himself instead. But this all comes from this one book from two thousand too, and it doesn't seem like there's any historic research to back at. It doesn't seem like anybody thought that that was a thing. I have a question eight women. Is it the eight women in question for the Jack the Stripper or is

this a separate It's just it's just an amorphous. So the report was that the craze said that Freddie had told them that he had killed eight women, and the author of this two thousand two books said, so, obviously that must have been these eight women, and of course he died. Stuff. But still I say, I I agree. Uh. And you know the other thing too, is that I, in my reading about Freddie, though he had a brutal profession of boxing, I did not get the impression that

he was overly brutal outside of the boxing ring. It didn't see and it also didn't even seem like his boxing technique was that brutal. So I don't. I didn't get the sense that he was really prone to violence, So I don't. I just don't buy it. Well, the thing about it is is the Jack the Stripper was

a guy that had some weird sexual predilections. Well, but so I think that's the reason that I bring up the whole homosexual thing is that if you're you know, there's that commonly said thing where if you're trying to suppress a part of you. It will come out in these like really weird, messed up ways. I don't buy it, especially if he was in a homosexual relationship with someone. He's not denying it, he's in a relationship with someone.

But the point if it's outside of marriage, the point that I'm making is that if you have violent, kinky sexual predilections, and if you're a guy who wants a nightclubs, a famous boxer and a celebt pritty, you're gonna get a lot of you know what with women. Yeah, probably there's gonna be people coming in who would be happy

to satisfy your desires. While it's not just that, but also at some point if somebody made these allegations and some of somebody, some some women or another going to come up come out and say, yeah, yeah, he tried to ram it down my throat and choked me to death one time. I had to had to grab his knowledge and squeeze him as hard as I could to

get into back away. You're gonna get people like that. Yeah, if you had a part election for sexual violence, then you know there would be also I mean you think that his wife probably would have brought it up. Yes, you think I mean, after his death, she probably would have said, yeah, he was kind of horrible. Yeah, because there's no I mean, there's no fear of retribution at

that point. I'm going to disagree with that, because there are there there are many, many examples of people who after an unhappy relationship has ended tragically, and in this example, he's killed himself supposedly even and though he may have been a bit of a bastard, it was I'm going to protect his legacy because suddenly that's the only thing I have to cling to. And I've convinced myself that

that's the right thing to you. I mean, if you've got kids, you know, especially for people, especially for their children. So she may not have just turned around and said, oh, yeah, he had this thing about my uvula. You know, it doesn't like that you keep going back to the uvula. I like, I figured out what it was a couple of years ago, Like you need a month ago. You thought that was something down here, right now it's up here. It's a far side coming that I figured out what

it was from. Yeah, let's go ahead and move off. Next suspect. Next suspect, I actually think this is this guy looks like my favorite suspect, your favorite as in like I like him for the crime, not I like him as a person, or think he has any reading You don't want his trading card. No, this is Harold Jones. Listeners who are into true crime may be familiar with Harold Jones given that he was a convicted murderer at

the age of fifteen. Yeah, he and he is another one that could have an entire episode on him if this were true crime, not on Solved Mysteries. Jones was convicted of rape and murder at fifteen. His victims were eight and eleven years old. Yeah, and he served at quote his Majesty's pleasure unquote from nineteen twenty one till nineteen forty one when he was released. There was a

king at the time. There's a bit of a thing here, and that he confessed to his crimes like just before he turned sixteen, Because it turns out in the twenties, the teens in England, if he had been sixteen instead of fifteen when he was convicted of the murders, he would have been hanged. Likely not it's not a hundred percent, but it's very likely that he would have been hanged instead. Of just been twenty years in jail, So smart thing

to do. But that if I had been in his position of authority back then, I would have I would have just quietly arranged to have his his birth certificate modified, or just you know, find a reason to put the trial off for a little while. Yeah, we got a continuance. What is that? It's this thing I'm using to delay things shut off. I'm making it up. But it's a really cool thing. You're gonna love it. Yeah. So Jones lived until in nineteen seventy one, and I believe so

he was alive. Um and I believe living in London at the time of the stripper murder. Believed that he was. Yeah, there's not again, they're not good records really. Apparently he had a wife and children. He did marry. Yeah, so he was a really brutal child. He raped and murdered and strangled, actually raped and strangled two young girls. And granted, you know he was young at the time too, but eight and eleven is still pretty young when you are fifteen,

i'd say, so. Um so yeah, I mean the only problem that I actually the biggest problem I have with this is he's another one that like in two thousands seven, somebody said, hey, hey, I bet actually Harold Jones has something to do with those with the with the jack the stripper murders. I mean it does. It would be reasonable to me to assume that he could have easily been the person who did them. But except no evidence, have you ever seen any kind of physical descriptions or

personality descriptions from him? I what I found was very very vague, okay, because I can. The reason that I asked that is, if somebody does something that brutal at that young of an age, they would continue with brutal behavior. And I almost wonder if it's a situation where either he's falsely he was falsely accused and convicted, or it wasn't also unheard of for people who had some um who is let's say, develop developmentally delayed or or stunted.

You know, he may be young, he may have been the same age mentally as these girls, and so he may or may not have been involved. And then he's an adult, so he's still a child as an adult, so he's not going to be prone to that same kind of behavior. I mean, this happens, it does he that was not his case. He was, um, he lured these girls because he worked in a shop as a fifteen year old and they were visiting the store and

he lurned them away. He there's I haven't read anything about and I did actually read a fair amount about him because I have this huge morbid curiosity. Okay, So that's why I was asking about because I didn't find a whole lot. But I didn't. I didn't. I kind of disregarded him just because of when he was brought up, and I was just suddenly curious about that. Okay, So that was what I'm going on. Was not the case

at all. Okay, So this is Harold Jones, ye, and this is Jack remember picture, But the drawing is like you can't I mean, can I see the picture of Harold Jones again? It's it's a pencil drawing that is I'm sorry, but any British literally, any white, any jolly

cheeky feature at all. So it's it's hard to tell. Yeah, I'm inclined to say that at that point in time he was kind of nearing the end of his life because when was he born nineteen well, he was fourteen and or he was fifteen in ninety one, Okay, I think it was not. Oh nine, yes, I guess it still would have been young enough somebody, you know and all that. Yeah, But like I said, since he wasn't brought up as a suspect until like two thousand and seven,

that feels so much like this thing. We see a lot that we try to cut through where it's somebody saying, like trying to make a big revelation. You know, Yeah, it's not. It's not only I made a book, but it's you know, oh god, this guy lived in kind of the same area and was convicted of things that were kind of similar. So yeah, my god, it could be him. It's probably him, and I saw somebody. That's

hard for me. I saw somebody and read it claiming that several of the bodies were found within a couple of blocks of where he lived in London. I have no idea how anyone would know that. It's it's absolutely not true, because if you look at the maps of where the bodies, they're not even found within a couple of blocks of each other. The two, yeah, the two bodies that were closest to each other were found a

mile and a half apart. Yeah, yeah, those were the closest ones and so yeah, there's no way that more than one body was found a few blocks from his house. Yeah, so that's all the suspects. I know there are some other suspects that I have willfully ignored. Yeah, well I'll talk about one if you don't mind. Yeah, I know. There was a detective superintendent in William Baldock who really didn't like do Roses theory about the security guard Margo. Yeah, he his his belief that it was a former London

policeman who committed the murders. Yeah, I didn't like this theory very much. But let me let me just let me spell it out just a little, just a little bit why he liked it so much. Um So, this guy, we gotta call him, what are we gonna call him? Officer Jones? Let's call him that. How about Jack? Officer Jack? Officer Jack? Okay, Officer Jack was a cop, but he

was not that well liked by his co workers. Apparently a lot of them felt that they didn't really trust him, and he sort of turns out he wasn't that trustworthy because eventually you got arrested for committing a series of burglaries and he was eventually, of course, convicted, sentenced to a year, and of course he was booted off the police force in London. Yeah, yeah, yeah, shocking yeah, so um okay, he got he got out of prison after he served a year and got out in June nineteen

sixty three. He took a job as a car salesman. Um. And the reason Baldock started liking this guy nobody trusted a car salesman exactly. That's a good reason. This guy was a smooth talker. He was especially good with women, It's actually true. But Baldock was looking at a map and he noticed that the bodies were being dumped in different police subdivisions in London. Five out of the six bodies were dumped in subdivisions that that officer Jack had

worked in. And there are there are many many subdivision police subdivisions in London. Yeah, and so five out of the six and and number six, Irene Lockwood was found in the Bank of the Thames and and may have actually been dumped in one where this guy used to

work and drifted there from somewhere else anyway. So this guy, as I said, was sentenced to a year in prison and at his at his trial, He said that he committed the crimes not so much because he wanted to steal, but because he liked the idea of doing something that his fellow cops would have to work on but would

not be able to solve. So he felt better than them. Yeah, yeah, and just just to just to frustrate them, because he felt like, you know, you know, I guess he felt a little that he'd been mistreated or something like that, and so he thought he'd screw them, you know. And so that's another reason why Baldoc thought that this guy was a good fit for the murders. But again that's

just his theory and there's no proof whatsoever. And of course he was never able to actually name this guy's name actually, as opposed to Mango Irish, so we won't know who he is Irish, Mango Ireland, but anyway, he wasn't Irish. But I thought it was an interesting theory and at least worth mentioning, even though well, you know that that's the frustration with this one, right is it. I feel like we hit this point with a lot of these cases where we think London is a big town,

there's a lot of people. One percent of the population could have done it. I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to tell everyone. I don't know. Yeah, I have no idea. No, I don't either. Yeah, we'll never know. I think it was some guy named Jack. That's all we know. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you want to see some of the research that we've done, um, or listen to the episode because apparently you don't know where

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then if you have feedback, for us. If you have suggestions, if you're an expert, if you just want to tell us how much you love us, you can send us an email. The email address is Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. I'm pretty sure that's all the business. Did I get? Did I forget anything? I'm not holding a list though, Yeah, well I'm not either, because I don't need it anymore. Alright, well, Joe, why did you

write it? I think it was her. Right on that note, we're going to get out of here, so talk to you guys next week or maybe tomorrow, who knows. Okay, bye, bye everybody, Let's sit down to the strip. Okay, bye,