Thinking Sideways: The Murders of Mary Morris

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slash sideways, thanks for your help. I don't know stories of things. We simply don't know the answer too. Well. Hey there, and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I, of course Am Steve as usual, joined by Hey, and once again we have another mystery for you this week. We it's as I always do, I'm pulling for the listeners suggestions and this was suggested by Adam and Matt originally, and I'm sure a bunch of other people, but we

didn't have room for your name in the list. But the story that we're going to talk about this week, as Joe has dubbed it, is the murders of Mary Morris. Right, Yeah, it's actually possible to murder somebody more than once. Well, it sort of sounds that way, So let's just hop right into our mystery. Our mystery begins on Thursday, October twelve.

In two thousand, forty eight year old woman named Mary Henderson Morris got up for a normal work day at her job at Chase Bank on the west side of Houston, Texas. Her husband j walked her out to her Chevy Ilumina at six am, when she typically left, and he watched her drive out of the driveway, turn onto the road, and presumably drive off to the place where she normally stopped to get gas in the morning. Why did he walk her to her car, because that's just something they did.

It's probably you know, walk out in Some folks do that. They walk their their spouse out of their car and give them their coffee and a kiss and a hug and then off they go. And that's what he did. Like me, who just grumpily like rolls in out of my bed and into the car. And yeah, and your boyfriend says, don't get killed exactly, So he watches her

drive away from their home in Burnett Bay. She may have been seen at a gas station shortly after she left her home, and that gas station was at the junction of Interstate ten and Thompson Road, and there's a bunch of gas stations right in that area. But she from there presumably would have gone on her normal drive heading west across the city to where her job was.

She never got there. Well, the thing is is that Mary and Jay were there very close, as we've realized from his walking her out every morning, and they would talk on the phone several times a day. But he made several calls to her cell phone and she never answered, and she thought something was a little off about that. But you know, it's maybe it's a big day, busy day, whatever, Except that at about two o'clock, somebody called the house looking for Mary, and not knowing who it was, j

just said, well, she's at work. He would later learn that that person was actually from Chase, trying to find out where their employee was. It seems like they would identify themselves, though, doesn't it doesn't It seem like they would say, hello, husband of our employee, this is your wife's employee, or we are just wondering where your wife is.

If it was a certain level of manager, I could see that, if it was a certain uh employee, that would say in charge of employees scheduling, and why hasn't this person showed up? And I'm always calling on the yahoos who don't show up. Maybe not so much. I just feel I get you. I'm not not in disagreement that didn't themselves. So to this person calls but doesn't identify themselves. After after, I think it's about four o'clock, you know, Jay and Mary's daughter Maryland, They're getting worried

where is she? She hasn't come home. Eventually they find her cell phone in the house, so now they're thinking, oh God, she's been in a car accident or broken down. I'm presuming it must have been I hope, you would hope. But at this point they're thinking, well, she's had something's going wrong and she can't get ahold of us. So at about five o'clock, Jay calls the police and he reports her as missing. About that same time, there are the Sheriff's department. They get a call about an abandoned

vehicle that's been burned. That car, which is about three miles or that equates to about five kilometers east of there of Mary and Jay's home, which is the opposite direction of where she worked. Absolutely correct. She worked on the west side of town. His car is east of where they live. The call comes, the cops get this call about this burned out vehicle. Well, earlier in the day, the fire department had actually got called for smoke in that same area. The call had come in at about

ten twenty am. The fire department said it looked like it was burning leaves. It's you know, it's October that people are burning leaves, and they didn't bother to investigate, but that burning leaves usually smell burning rubber. Uh well, burning leaves tend to be very smoky, I am pretty sure is what that boils down to. But the long and the short of it is is that the fire

department doesn't go check it out. But when the cops go to check out this burned vehicle, what they find is a vehicle that has apparently been soaked in some kind of accelerant and lit on fire. And the fire has been so intense that it has melted every piece of rubber on the vehicle, like the tires came off of the car. The heat was so intense inside of the vehicle. I gotta get some of that stuff. It must have been. But inside of the car they find

a body and they don't know who it is. But eventually what they're able to do using tooth fragments that they reconstruct, they determine that indeed, it is Mary's Body's body. Well, no, it's Mary because it's her teeth in her skull, so they know it's her. Well, you know, somebody could have put them there. But okay, oh you too. Cut it out right away, and you're already doing this to just monkeying around on things beca nope, never, I am. I am an upstanding mystery citizen. I don't do that kind

of stuff. She's alive on an island with Dorothy, so anyway, she does not go to Dorothy Island. She is indeed found in the car. Like I said, they don't know. They figured out, but because of the fire, they don't know what the cause of death is. I mean, her body has been burned so severely. There is nothing about Mary's life though, that is an apparent motive for why someone would want to do something like this tour. I mean, the police said the only thing they can confirm that

are missing is her purse and her wedding ring. But could they actually confirm that the purse was missing? I am, I have I thought the same thing. I have to guess that they would have found a pile of melted whatever the material is in the plastics that your credit cards and all of that stuff are made up in your handle to yeah, that all there should have been a pile of that detritus and there wasn't. Or debris, not detritis, but of debris. So that's why I thought

the same thing. And now the other question crimes seeing no gas can or anything like that was found in or near the vehicle, not that I know of. Okay, So, like I said, though, is that you know we just discussed the purse, but also her wedding ring. We'll talk about her wedding ring more in detail later because that is something that people point at is kind of a seedy or nefarious thing, and we'll we'll deal with that

when the time comes. I have to tell you now, though, that the next thing that I'm going to say, which happens a day or so after Mary's body has found, is always referred to as alleged. You know. The resist is something that I cannot confirm, but I have to

share it because it's in all of the stories. And that is that supposedly, supposedly, allegedly somebody called the Houston Chronicle and they said something to the fact of they got the wrong Mary Morris, ostensibly exactly that's what you were looking for, it is, of course, that's always the word now. I think it goes without saying that. Obviously, Jay and Maryland they're both devastated by Mary's death because there's there's nothing that seems to have motivated this. It

seems very random. She didn't live any kind of crazy life. She did work for a bank, but it wasn't as if it was a really crazy, crashed time. So after her funeral. Maryland, her daughter, calls the Medical Examiner's office, this is on the sixteenth of October, to see about picking up her mother's effects, at which point they told her that the effects and the body would be available at the same time, which freaked her out because they've just had a funeral and she can't understand what they're

talking about, and so she goes down there. No, she goes down the Medical Examiner's office and they show her a body which is not her mother. Is it Mary Morris though it is indeed Mary Morris. It is Mary McGinnis Morris, So we have to Mary Morris's. Mary McGinnis Morris is a thirty nine year old wife and mother who also lived in the Greater Houston area. She didn't know Mary Henderson Morris at all. The two didn't know

each other. Maybe for the sake of easiness, it might be easier to call him Mary one and Mary too. I think I'm gonna stick with Henderson and McGinnis. Okay, it's gonna be better because one and two is easy for me to confuse. McGuinness lived about ten miles away from Henderson. McGinnis originally was from West Virginia, but she had moved to the area to take job with Union Carbide. She was a nurse practitioner and she had taken the position of medical director with that company, so she had

moved there for that job. Sounds like a good job. On October fifte which was a Sunday, McGinnis ran a number of errands. Uh, you know, it's kind of a normal Sunday. She made a couple of different stops before she stopped off at Union Carbide to give a flu shot to her friend Lori Gemmil and from there she went to the Ecker drug Store where at about five thirty at night, she called Lorie and told her she saw someone who has given her the creeves and said she was going to go back to the office and

log out of her computer and then head home. About twelve minutes later, a call comes into one from McGuinness and she is as reported, she's in a frantic state. We don't know what's said on the call. We don't know what's heard on that call because that call has

never been released. But that's the last contact that anybody can recorded contact of Mary McGinnis, And we don't know if she logged out of her computer don't, so we don't know if she probably didn't make it to work, but maybe I would presume her work was about a five plus mile drive away from the Eckert if I remember right where she where she was found was at

least a five minute or more drive from Eckerd. So for her to have been able to get back to work and then to that spot seems like a stretch to think she'd ever got back to work. Yeah, or she got back to work, logged out back to the parking lot, then called nine one one. That doesn't really matter. I was just wondering how close, if any, she got to work at all. I don't think that she did. McGinnis's husband, Mike Morris, he reported her missing that evening

when she didn't come home. He said that he tried to call her continually but he never got any answer. And it was but it was ringing straight to voicemail. It was ringing and there would eventually you know what, Actually, I don't know that it ever actually went to voicemail. Based on some stuff we're gonna talk about in a bit, and now Mike called. He called nine one one also to reporter missing. I believe he called the Sheriff's department.

Most people don't call one to make a missing person's report, so I imagine that he actually called the Sheriff's department directly. So at that time they were either unaware of the nine one one called she had made or the connection. I think they were unaware of the connection between the two. Yeah, it sounds like we don't know exactly what happened from the time that that nine one one call ended and

until the time of her death. What we do know is that the next day someone spotted mcguinness's dodge in Trepid on West Little York Street, which is near Highway to nineties, so it's kind of a clover leaf offshoot. Yeah, you totally that the car was found. Like I said, it was less than five miles away from where the drug store that she had talked to Laurie was at the Chord, and when officers found her body, it was

in the car with the passengers door open. It was apparent that she had been beaten, but the scene was staged to look like she had committed suicide. She did commit suicide, maybe the gun that was in her hand, the gun that was used to kill her, Whether she did it herself for someone else did was the family's gun. It was registered to her husband, Mike, and forensic tests would later confirm two different things, one that she had been gagged and two that she had indeed been as

I said, shot with that specific gun. So they had done ballistics to confirm that was the one that did it and shot where in the head, like I know, the throat, between the eyes and the back of the head she looked like. So I don't know the exact location because that is not given away in any the reporting. But to be a parent to a stage like a suicide, it has to be either under the chin or through the side of the temple, would be my guest, or the mouth. Yeah, that's yeah, that's I consider that and

under the chin very similar. But yes, yeah, so those are the those are things. But it staged to be like a suicide. We can guess it probably wasn't in the mouth if she was gagged, If she was gagged and then shot and the gag was removed, yes, if the gag was removed and then she was shot, no, all right, yeah, they stupid ordering. Yeah, so she wasn't gag when they found her body, that right, they were just were able to tell what from ligature marks that

she had been previously correct, they could tell. They could tell she had been hit a number of times. That's why it's referred to as being beaten and that she had a gag in her mouth at some point before her death, and the time of death was determined to be what do not know, it's it's I'm guessing the window is somewhere shortly after the one call. I mean, for all I know, all any of us know then

one call recorded the shot that killed her. I don't know, but it's I think it's always presumed that it's right around the time frame that five forty time frame. Two is the long time of the nine one one call. One would guess that there would be mention of the shot that killed her being heard. So the thing with the nine one one call is that the law enforcement agency, the Sheriff's Department, said it was so disturbing that they did not want to release it and its contents to

the public. So I can't say two parents. Almost every single place that you'll see this on, Mary Henderson Morris, like I said before, had almost nothing in her life that could have ad to her demise in that way. Mary McGinnis Morris, however, did have a number of different things that could have led to the scenario where she lost her life. So let's talk about several of the things in Mary McGinnis Morris's life that seemed to point suspect at who or what may have caused her death.

The first one is a gentlemine by the name of Dwayne. I'm not gonna use his last name. You can find out on the internet if you really want, but he's

gone through a lot about this. But sometime in the beginning of two thousand, Union Carbide Heart hired a male nurse and to what degree I don't know this took place, but apparently he and McGinnis did not get along and they clashed and it sounds like actually they were friendly at first, but thanks kind of what south maybe yeah, you know, there there are things about her that seem a bit prickly in time, so I could see that

how that could be, I don't know. That's the hard part is that when it's it becomes a he said, she said scenario, you know, after events like this take place. But the long and the shortage of it is that they they did not get along. I don't know whether it was that he questioned her in front of other staff or if he went around her directly to upper management and questioned her ability at her job, but either way they were not on good terms. She was not

happy with him. Mcguinnis had told people after their their spats were going on and all of the tension, she had told people that she believed that Dwayne was capable of hurting her. Was a guy. Well, there's that. And according to her husband Mike, it's around the time that all of the clashes were happening that she asked him for his un as well as lessons, and then started carrying that gun in the car with her underneath the seat. And I was according to Jess Micer, according to so

other people knew that she was carrying the gun. This is this thing that I don't get sometimes as people are carrying a gun for their protection and they tell everybody they've got the gun there. I don't tell somebody I had a gun hit in my car, telling where it is. Yeah. So, but but yes, people knew that she was she was packing. She also had told people that she was going to stop carrying the gun, but Mike says that she never had any She never said that to him, and he, as far as he knew,

she had no intention to stop carrying that. The tension between Dwayne and mcguinnis reached a climax on Friday in two thousand when she came into her office and she found that things were wrong. And by that, I mean, depending on the accounting, she found some of her stuff had been moved around and the pictures on her desk had been turned around, or there's other accounts that basically imply that her desk was completely and utterly destroyed and

everything was knocked around. Cool. It's kind of psycho so to you, Yeah, well, it depends on how they're trying to portray portray Dwayne, I feel. But the thing that really gets Dwayne in trouble here is that written on a desk calendar on another desk, which we have to presume is his, are the words death to her. M Yeah, I gotta say that. It sounds like a frame up

to me. Yes, I mean that's super psycho behavior. Well, it's not the super psycho on his part or her part, because I mean, frankly, you know, I mean, if I'm planning on like stocking and murdering somebody. I don't write death threats on my desk calendar at work or yeah

like that, like somebody was trying to get somebody. I would also, but I would also mentioned I don't know if this is the appropriate time to have the discussion or not, but I will just say that, um, you know, she called her friend, who presumably also you, Dwayne, and she said, some guy, right, she said, some guy is giving me the creeps. Not oh crap, Dwayne is here and he looks like a psychopath. I mean, if he were actually following her, if it was him personally, one

would suspect that she would just name him. Lori has said that mcguinnis told her at the on that call from the Ecker drug store that she thought the man she recognized him, and it's implied that he may have been a friend of Dwayne's. So there's there's there again. The people will keep working the connections back and back into place. A lot of people want to believe Dwayne did something here. There's a lot of people who want

to believe several people are guilty. Every time there are there are people really working to pin this on certainly. I'm just gonna go ahead and say one final thought before we move on, and that is, not only is that an insane level of crazy for Dwayne to be over a job to like potentially murder someone, but you also rope in one of his friends to be like, oh my god, I hate this woman at works so much. I hate my boss so much that I'm going to murder her. Why don't you Why don't you come in

on it with me? That's an even next level of insanity. Well, that's like creating more witnesses. Yeah, and you know how Joe feels about that, absolutely believe no witnesses there. Yeah, okay, so okay, she finds the note we're gonna go back to that to her, she freaks out. I personally think she was trying to get a pt O day because she gets the rest of the day off her boss. Her bosses tell her not to come in on the next day at all. Later that day, Dwayne comes in.

He said apparently was going to come in to either submit or to check that his time card had gone in to be submitted for pay. It's at that point that he has confronted about this whole thing with McGinnis on the desk calendar her desk. Depending on the accountings, the level of the escalation of this varies, but he is confronted. He is then escorted out of the building and told not to return. He's not actually fired, just so you know, because he didn't work directly for Union Carbide.

Apparently he worked for a contracting company and so after a period of time he was transferred to another facility, so he didn't actually get fired, though it's always referred to as fired. If you read to post from Dwayne himself, he explains that part of it, they tell him not to come back, so he didn't lose his job. He didn't lose his job. Well that's good because frankly, you know, I think that it very likely was not him who

scrawled the death threat. Well, we don't even know if the death threat Joe and I'm we're going to talk about that later. But that's not even really a death threat. That's just like a weird scrawling. Yeah, and it was, let's not forget. There's also in the depending on the version you read, it's there's something to the effect of after they escort Dwayne out of the building, he's at the window, banging at it, screaming to talk to Mary McGinnis Morris. I just generally just way board out there.

I just generally don't believe that people are that crazy. I mean, there, yes, there are like people that are that crazy in this world, but generally speaking, I feel like you would, you know, at this point in the story, would be saying, and here's the insane history of Dwayne and his life and how he been an insane person his entire life. Although in fairness, you know, I mean you're talking a building. He's he can't come back in the door because he's told he's not welcome there, but

he wants to talk to Mary. It's one of those one of those big ones with not opening windows. He's banging on the windows, which you're thick, by the way, trying to get someone his attention, and then he asked to in order to make his voice heard, scream. He's got to yell I want to talk to Mary, you know, And it gets and it doesn't mean he's gone nuts. It might just mean he thinks she's and he would

like to speak with her. So I was going to talk about this later on, but we'll just talk about this real briefly now, which is depending, like I said, depending on the version that you hear. Are you going to talk about the car chases? No, there's no car chases. No, there were actually reportedly like about seventeen high speed car chases in the Houston area, a lot of explosions, three buildings burned to the ground about this time. He didn't hear about any of this. This is part of the

whole Killer Syde work from the future theory. You're not going to talk about that at all, No, No, I'm not. No. What I was going to talk about was okay, Now, what I was going to talk about is the fact that Dwayne has been very vocal and he's gone on the Internet about this. But what seems to have prompted him to do so is the fact that this particular story was covered by Unsolved Mysteries back in two thousand and two. And yes, I know I did too Unsolved

Mystery episodes in a row. I'm really trying to screw with people until they're all available on the internet, so Amazon, take the hint. But this is on there. And in that episode, the actor who portrays him does a bit of an over the top job of acting out his part of banging on the windows and screaming for her, and that seems to have set him off on his campaign of self defense, which you will find on many

many wards. All right, well, let's go. Let's move forward from the that possible reason that would have created the situation that Mary McGinnis Morris could have been killed and Dwayne wanted to like, you know, murder her for everything that happened at the job. The second possible thing in her life that could have set this situation up is potentially a affair and a marriage that was on the rocks when Mike and Mary McGinnis Morris moved to the area.

Like I said, she came for that job. Her husband, Mike didn't. And I don't know if he had a job and he lost it or he just never got one, but he seems to have had some issues in securing employment for two years. That's a long time, it is, and that that does some terrible things to to a person when you're trying to find worship that long. They have a team age daughter, so I know that he probably you know, spent a lot of time with her

daughter because he could. But there's also accusations of infidelity. He suspected that his wife was having an affair, and he says when he confronted them, they looked him in the eye and convinced him that there was nothing untoward going on. They they I don't know who the second person in the they is, but I also know that some places you'll read that say that mcguinnis had confided in friends that she had found somebody and she was in love, but she wasn't going to leave Mike because

of her daughter. She wasn't willing to split the marriage up. People do that, they put their own happiness before, uh after, that of their children in the security, which is normal, but that appears to me what she said she was doing it well. I mean, you know, there's also like popular of crushes. I mean, when you're with somebody for thirty or forty years, you're going to find a person every once in a while you're attracted to that person.

But when you're married and you can make your commitment to the marriage, hopefully you're bright enough by the time weset age you're not going to actually move run after the thing that seems you know, sparkly she's n year old, lady should but it sounds like she did. Maybe yeah to her friend does. But Mike couldn't entirely appear to trust her, though he said he did because he was known to follow her around. I know, you think a sign of a very normal loving relationship. I do it

to my wife all the time. Honey, It's not really me. I swear, I'm gonna have to have a little conversation with your wife. Don't do that. Actually, With you know, the modern electronic devices, you don't even need to follow people around physically anymore. You can can really monitor the crap out of somebody. You really can't their phone. It wasn't thing you put in your key chain. You can just toss that in somebody's car and track it. Yeah,

you don't even need to do that. You just have to like convince them it's a good idea to have the find my Friends part activated. Oh yeah, that's true. That's true. Well, I'm really done. I'm really bad at

convincing people to use other technologies. So hiding technology is my okay, final final thing, whether it is Mike or somebody else, which possibly could be the final thing about Mary McGinnis Morris that could have put her into this situation is that she had a rather sizeable life insurance policy. It was somewhere depending on the source, between five hundred to seven hundred thousand dollars. Was that in today's money,

like five hundred five thousand dollars? Yeah, Actually, Joe's pretty ready, so that's not that beasts like almost twenty years ago. Just but it's not a huge difference, not as huge. Yeah, Now, why exactly? I mean, well, it seems pretty obvious why that would matter, But we're going to delve into some of the reasons of why that five hundred to seven hundred thousand dollars really could have been really really important here. Well, gee,

I wonder why, Yeah, exactly. So I'm gonna go jump on the internet and I'm going to research why five hundred seven hundred thousand dollars in life insurance is important. While I'm doing that, let's take a quick break. Hey, folks, if you watch TV, then you probably know that your town is at least two mattress store change. And if there's one thing those guys have in common is said their commercials are all really annoying. Wouldn't you like to

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get a great night's sleep with Casper. And we're back. And it turns out it's important because it's five hundred to seven hundred thousand dollars and I don't know how I didn't figure that out the first time. So it's five seven depending on how she died or what, depending on the policy and the reporting that you look at. That's where the variance and the figure is. It's either five hundred or seven. Half a million dollars is half a million dollars, I mean it's a half a million

reasons a lot of money. It's not bad, yeah, I mean, I mean I know, no, of course not. No, you wouldn't be that. I know you wouldn't you belie You're not secretly a murderer. No, So let's go ahead and get into theories. Theory number one, which is the Internet's most popular theory this was totally a hit gone wrong or a killer cyber. No, no, not killer cyboards. You gotta stop in the future. Nope, nope, this is not terminator. Yeah,

they got the wrong Mary Morris. That's where you're going with. Now, I see what you're doing. They just decided, I don't know all that goes in themes, so I'll just get the phone book out. Now. Arnold is not involved, damnit No, no, D's okay. So the theory is that someone be it Mike or Dwayne or somebody else, they put out a hit on Mary McGinnis Morris. It turns out that whoever did this hired the hit man equivalent of Mr Magoo, and that person killed Mary Henderson Morris instead of Mary

McGinnis Moore's. In the mistaken belief they had had they got the right person, and then when they figured out they had killed the wrong person, they went back to then do the job right, which is why Mary McGinnis Morris was subsequently killed. Well, they don't. I mean they're both white women, approximately the same height, approximately the same build, ten years apart less than ten years apart, the same har color, the same hair length, basically as when they

look pretty similar. They drove cars that though they were different makes from different manufacturers, they were very similar basic bloss a dance, the same color and everything. I can't remember the color, but I know that um Henderson Henderson Henderson had a Chevy Lumina. First Mary Henderson Morris had the Lumina, and then Mary mcguinnis Morris had a Dodge.

Was it an intrepid Yeah, yeah, which if you look at the those models and say within a four year eight time bracket of the year two thousand, they look basically the same. They're just as I refer to them, bloss a dance all look the same. So there's there's nothing really distinct. So that's what this is based on. This theory then instantly splits into several sub theory reads.

Before we hit those sub theories, though, there's there's something that you'll always see in the reading which I don't completely agree with, but that that reading will always say that point out how Mary Henderson Morris's wedding ring was missing, and it will also say that that is typically done because supposedly hit men take the wedding ring of the person they're killing to prove that they hit happened. I

thought it was their heads or their hands. Okay, you know, frankly, I don't see the point to it, because, I mean, you know you're gonna find if you read the papers, you'll find out whether he succeeded or not. In Hollywood, this makes sense in a situation where it's a drug kingpen trying to track down a snitch who is in hiding, and you have to bring back proof of the kill. Maybe I could see that the man that goes to

bed every night with that woman. Yeah. Well, but I mean even then, it's like, it's not it's a ring. It comes off a person's live body. It's not. There's no proof in anything on the wedding ring. And furthermore, the fact that her purse and her wedding ring room missing just means that somebody wanted a little extra dough on the side. Because you could just pawn all that stuff off. It doesn't mean that they took it as a token to like prove that they had successfully done

something that's silly. And also, by the way, well people take their wedding rings off from time to time, and that happens not because they're screwing around it maybe they're cleaning or whatever. You know, I take a shower, I take mine off, and then I've forgotten it and hours later like, oh crap, I guess I'm not married. Finally, yeah, right on. But but the wedding ring was ever found, never found. I guess one possibility, I don't know. I'm sorry again. We could be just jumping the gun here

a little bit. But I guess one possibility is since the car was so destroyed, the purple thought that it probably would make it much harder to identify the body if he took the wedding ring and the purse with him, right, because they wouldn't melt as much. So if you know, still say like, oh that's the wedding ring, that's her wedding rings. Yeah, if things didn't melt or didn't burn as much. Did you know, did they say anything about finding, like, say,

a golden nugget in the car? No? And I have some I have some very I personally have different feelings as to why Henderson's car was burned, but we'll talk about that later. But um, like I said, it doesn't make any sense that if you're the guy that goes to bed with this woman every night in the same bed that you would need proof. And if it's Dwayne, it doesn't make any sense because you run in the same circles and you know all the same people. So again,

this is the silly thing the hit man. But we're gonna run down the hit theories. Hit theory number one is that Mike set it up. And there are a lot of things that make people think that Mike set up the hit. But if he did, he did some

really dumb things. The first of which is that there is a four minute call from his phone to his wife's phone two hours after call came in from her from her that frantic her call to the cops two hours later, Yeah, two hours later, there's a four minute call log from his phone to her and we are talking a cell phone, correct their cell phones. When confronted about it, he said that there's got to be a problem with the phone company because what he did is he just let it ring and ring and ring in

hopes that she would pick up, and it just kept rang. Well. Yeah, and this is the year two thousand. Win Voicemail was not a default feature on a call plan. You had to in roll and pay for it, was it? Yes, I worked for. We've we talked about this a week

or two. Goo. I worked for a phone company at this time, and you had to enroll and pay certain plans required you to pay for voicemail, so they probably didn't have voicemail a good man, and Mike might have actually been in one of those stubborn movies where he just said, screw you. I know you're there. I'm just going to set the phone down and let it ring and ring and ring. And problem is it should not

have registered as a call. It wasn't picked up. Yeah, it wasn't picked up, Yes, unless I was picked up by voicemail, but picked up by some shouldn't have rung for four minutes, right, it should it could have been. It should have gotten the eventual disconnect from the phone company and not sat there then. Well, although I will say um, at least every voicemail I've ever had, the default is that the voicemail cut you off after five minutes. It'll let you leave a five minute long message and

that's the max. So I don't I don't know what it was at that point, but I guess it's possible he may be you know, called and thought he hung up and put the phone down and it rang and a hit voicemail and then it was just a blank message. But even then they should have found Yeah, no, I don't like it. The cell company should have ended the

call after about a minute. That's apparently typical. So that's one problem they're like we talked about, you know, he had he they would have had to have had this voicemail for what you're talking about, for it have gone through it eventually gotten kicked off. I've never seen any records that show the call on Mary's records and Mike's records to show it a real call, because to me, if it's a real connected call, it should be registered on both phones from and well, you know, I haven't

seen that, so I can't. I can't confirm that that's truly what happens here. But the police are pretty sure that there that he is lying through his teeth because the problem is that he had no reason to think that his wife was missing at that point unless he had hired a hit, made a killer. Okay, I'm if you're on the side of Mike is innocent and he didn't do it. For him to have made a four minute ringing, I'm going to get your attention answer the

phone call. He has said, I was distraught and I just let it ring and ring and ring and hopes that she would answer it. That doesn't make any sense. The other problem is he was at the movie theater with his daughter. Why would he be freaking out? I mean, okay, maybe Mary was supposed to meet him at the theater and she didn't show up, But sitting there for four minutes ringing, ringing, ringing is pretty extreme. Well, two things. One is I stand by my theory that it's possible

that he thought he hung up and he didn't. Yeah, he said that he let it ring that so he affirmed that he sat there with the phone for four minutes. The other thing I'll say is that apparently he was following her with his car because he really didn't trust her. So if he in his mind had you know, worked up that she was with her lover for him to just be like again, as Joe said, you know, kind

of like screw you. I know you're there, I'm gonna leave this phone ringing while you're you know, getting it on with your lover because that'll be a distraction and then you'll have to you know, confront me at some point. I mean that I'm not going to I can get myself to that insane headspace on my most insane, hormonal moments. But I mean it's still it's not a great theory, and it's a little counter to some of the things that he said. Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from.

He said some things that right, Well, because I think I think you would, you would say I thought she was cheating on me, so I let it ring because I was trying to get a hold of her. Not I thought she was missing, you know. And by the way, her cell phone was found in her car. Correct. I can't say yes to that because it's never stated if it was. The case is technically open, so of course the records from the police are not available. I don't know if indeed her phone was found there. I have.

I was gonna say at one point, well, I saw a picture of her phone record, but except I don't know that that's actually real, because as we talked about in the last story that I did, it was an Unsolved Mysteries episode of and so I think that's I think that's some kind of mocked up phone record. So I have I have no idea. I can't say if her phone was there not, but if he wasn't calling her, if he was calling the hit man, that makes absolutely no sense. It's the stupidest thing in the world to do.

Any should know better. Well, the hit man, he has a cell phone, and yeah, I'm sure he does. I mean, he had the whole idea of calling the hit man and his wife's cell phone. It's kind of silly, super silly. Yeah, okay, so let's let's keep going forward though with the mic set up the hit theory. Another thing that makes people finger him as the bad guy is that his wife was known to wear a ring that wasn't on her body at the time that it was found. This isn't

your wedding ring. Wedding, by the way, I don't know that, but this was another ring. I have to I have to presume it was. But this is you know, I mean, women wear multiple rings and somewhere a certain ring all the time, and she was known to wear one of these rings on a regular basis and it was not there with her body. He reported it missing to the police, but then his daughter was seen wearing that ring several months later, at which point when he was confronted with it.

He said that he had founded in the house and he just forgot to tell the cops. Which if you think about this from the angle of a man who has lost his wife and is trying to deal with his grieving daughter and he finds a ring, or his daughter finds the ring, he's not going to make a big deal out of it because he's trying to hold his his freaking life together. I can see how this is not a big thing to call the cops and say, oh, hey, that's that's sterling silver ring she wore all the time

with a little etching on it. Yeah, we found it especially important. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say, especially if you know, they said, okay, so what was she usually wearing and he, you know, would have said, I don't know, she you know, a shirt that looked like this, and she often wore this ring, and you know, jeans and probably these shoes and that, you know, And that's you know, in the heat of the moment, when you're worried about your wife, that you say that, and

then you know, months later you find that ring. You're not going to think, oh, the police will want to know about this. You're gonna just say, oh, this was a ring that was really special to your mother, you should have it. Or the daughter finds it and says, I found mom's ring. Honey, where the ring. Take If it makes you feel, if it, if it helps, do it, yes, do whatever you got to, whatever you know, hocket and buy some drugs, do whatever you do. Know that's not

what happened. Let's not do that now before people. Uh, you know, I've said a couple of statements. I feel like maybe I've defended Mike a little bit. I also kind of beat on him a little bit for the stupid things if he was the one who did this. There's some other things that Mike has done that a lot of people don't like that have put him in the hot seat. Number one of which is the fact

that he lawyered up almost immediately. Yeah. I would if my boyfriend, if he had a life policy, a life insurance policy of you know, half a million to seven d K and my and then he showed up murdered somewhere, I would immediately get a lawyer. Of course, how often have we seen k says where the husband just innostantly

walks in. It's like okay, I'll answer your questions and there this suddenly their prime suspect only two then months later, after being drugged through the mud or jailed, get released with a little sorry. Yeah, but we've also seen to go the other way where they walked in, they answered all the questions and the police fingered him and sure is hell, they turned out to be the one that was guilty and did it. So you can see why the cops, but you can also see where he's coming from.

I mean, like, I get why he lawyered up, but he also refused to let the cops talk to his daughter and people were really upset about that because she was a teenager. She's I think fourteen at the time.

But but I again, so the cops want to talk to her, and he doesn't let them talk to her for a good two months, and I can see that again, this is the father who was trying to defend his daughter and insulin and protect her, and it's not till a certain amount of time that he feels like she's ready or the other side of the camp is this is a man who is responsible, and he's very carefully crafting and curating his daughter's responses and statements to this

the situation there, there's never gonna be a winning reaction. I mean, we talked about this a lot on this show, that the you know, the spouse or family of people who show up murdered or disappeared, there's not there's never the right way to react. People are always going to suspect you, and people are always going to think you're innocent, no matter what the situation is. And that's just I mean, unfortunately,

that's the truth of the matter. So but yeah, as far as say, you know, I don't know, she might have it could be suspicious, I don't know. Yeah. Eventually let her talk though, so so whatever she had to say, she got to tell it to the police. True. Yeah. He also famously refused to take a polygraph, which I think we've talked at nauseum about how unreliable polygraphs are. But he also said, listen, I'm on a bunch of

medication right now. He's he was taking stuff for the stress and the anxiety and the depression, and he really, I think probably correctly. So I didn't think that the police could adequately calibrate the polygraph to accommodate for that and others. I don't think you can. There are them that say that even without the stress and the drugs,

that you can't calibrate them because they're kind of voodoo. So, speaking of voodoo, currently, I have a little voodoo doll of Mike in my hand and I am randomly sticking needles in it. And let me go ahead and stick one more needle in it, which is to talk about his wife's car. Her car was one was a car that we're really used to this today. You put it in drive and you start to move, and the door's lock, the auto lock function. That's super common now, but that

was not super common in two thousand. But people say, well, if his wife was in a car that had possibly been moving, then the doors would have auto locked, and so there's no way the bad guy could have got into it. So he had to have given said bad guy the key to either get into it when it was parked and hide in the back seat and that old movie trope thing, or have the beeper and beeper the door open and opened the door and got it while she was sitting there, parked somewhere and having locked

the doors. Well, you know, there's also the possibility that she was actually jumped or approached or whatever outside the car, and based on her nine one one call, I have to say that that's exactly what happened, because if she had been inside the car and come under enough of an attack or a threat or whatever to have a panic called at nine one one, all she had to do was locked the doors and reached down unto her driver's seat where she had a gun. She and so

obviously she made that call. She must have made that call from outside the car. Either that or she's just a much fly tier person than than I had thought, and have to forget that she can lock her car, and also she's got a pistol like store it into her seat. Did you? Did you say I may have forgotten what seat she was in when she was found her.

I didn't because I don't know. The passenger door was open, so it gives me the inclination that she was and she was found lying in the car, so I presume that she was lying across the front seats from from passenger side, head pointing towards driver's door. But I also want to so this is you brought up something Joe that I want to talk about, which is I don't understand people who just stick a handgun under the seat of the driver's seat like it's gonna vel cross itself

to the floor and never moved. Sure, I mean things bounce around in cars so much that the I've got a gun under my seat thing is just I've never understood that if you were, oh, well, I strapped it to something, you actually can like put it in the holster and tie the holster or you know, tape duck duck, tape the holster or something to people do it under star and call them stuff like that, but insane. Yeah, but we we don't know that she had just tossed

a loose gun under the seat. We also don't know that she affixed it to anything. So that's so like when I talked about, you know, maybe somebody snuck into the car when she wasn't in it and was hiding there, and maybe the gun had rattled backwards, so they're crouched. It's October there, crouched down in the back of her car after five at night, which is going to be dark, and like, hey, put the hand Hey what the hell

is Oh, this is a gun. This is way better than the knife I brought with me, Like these things. I don't get. It does not make any sense. But well, and I did you know what kind of gun it was? I want to say it was a thirty eight, And I have no good reason to say that. For some reason, I think that too. Yeah, I mean, it's not the biggest handgun in the world, But you don't know what make or anything. No, No, I just remember the caliber

being mentioned, and that's about it. Here's the other thing about her, about this whole her key thing in the auto lock thing. There's a whole bunch of stuff in the news right now is we're recording about people who are being tricked out of their cars by people either laying in the road or putting dummies in the and tricking someone to get out of their car, at which

point they ambush them. So it's entirely possible that mcguinnis Mary mcguinnis Morris, drives her car somewhere down West Little York and there's a dummy in the road, and she gets out because she thinks it's a person heard, and then she is attacked. And maybe that's where the nine one one call comes, is that she's you know, I mean, I don't know, but it's very plausible. It is, except except for that she had just not so long earlier, said that there was a person following her that gave

her the creeps. I mean, as a woman who is not a registered nurse or you know, anything like that, I don't. I have. My sense of self preservation comes before my sense of preserving other people's lives. But I, especially if I had, you know, a couple of hours before, been super creeped out by somebody, or you know, however much time, I would not minute stop minutes. But she was.

She was also described um. Laura Gembl described it as saying that she was a matter of fact, it wasn't oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, this guy's freaking me. I was like, this guy is given a creeps. Even then though I would not, and I'm a different woman than this woman, and then that's fair. But I wouldn't stopped for anyone, especially, I mean, like normally I wouldn't stop for anyone, And then especially if I had been observing somebody that was giving me the creeps,

I would especially not stop. So when you got back in your car to after the drug store and you saw the creepy guy, would you feel around in the seat and find out where the gun was? Probably, but I probably would have holstered it somewhere, So yeah, you wouldn't have it on your seat anyway running around. So I believe that's all that we've got for this particular theory about Mike. There's some more about Mike later, but we've also still got it. We've got to flesh out

the It was a hit, but Dwayne set it up. Okay, that's that's yeah, We're we're still on the hit man that was Mr Magoo and accidentally killed the wrong woman at first, correct, got the wrong Mary Morris. So Dwayne. Dwayne is also super popular all over the internet as being the bad guy. And I will say that he would have known her habits because he worked with her. He knew where she lived because he had been to

her house for a party once. But then again he had she had been to his house once, So there's this whole thing of maybe the two men had met met, in other words, Mike and Dwayne. But supposedly the man, like I said earlier, the man that she saw in the Ecker drug was one of Drayne Dwayne's friends, which would indicate that that guy was who Dwayne had hired to take her out. That all seems to kind of make sense, except for this massive problem to me of timing.

Mary Henderson Morris was killed on a Thursday. Dwayne was let go or locked out of the building on Friday. Friday before Friday, Yeah, it's the the day after Henderson is killed on the twelve m. Guinness gets him kicked out of the building on Friday. So the whole he hired the hit man thing, like you could see him escalating to people, say, well, he got so angry about getting fired that he just in a rage hired this person who then he sent back in time. I guess.

So there there's an issue with the timeline there. The So the other thing that I look at with the whole desk calendar thing, the depth to her if he didn't like her so much, it seems weird. I think we talked about this before to write that down and to you know, to make that kind of statement on a calendar, But we also don't know if it's his calendar, and we also don't know if it's even in relation to her, because I don't even know that it was written by him. Well, the thing that was his calendar

in his desk. What I think about is that they were in the health industry, and there is such a thing as assistant suicide, and assisted suicide is not legal in the state of Texas. However, the withholding of life sustaining procedures is acceptable if it's at the patient's request.

And I pulled up from that time the way that it's word because it's a little strange, but I see where the loophole is is that it says the effective withholding of life staining procedures colon withdrawal or withholding of life sustaining procedures does not constitute offense of aiding suicide. So it could very well have been that somebody's family came in and said, listen, grandma has been on a ventilator for six months and has not woke up. It's

time to turn off grandma's ventilator. And it could have been as simple as that. Well maybe, except he was working at Assume just it's sort of an employee health opposite Union Carbide, right, So I mean, that's not the kind of place where you got people on like you know, ventolity, but they're they're doing health services there. I don't know exactly what happened at that facility. I'd be very honest with you, Joe. I also don't know if Dwayne only worked in that facility or as part of his job

with Union Carbide was to go to other facilities. I mean, there's a whole slew of things that death to Her could have meant. What about a concert that's a weird band name, but okay, is it really though? I mean death metal? No, actually it's not. Or a movie he meant, you know, death becomes her because he was going to go see that somebody. I mean, like wrong, it's not that wrong, death becomes her, death to her, I mean, you know, it's an unfortunate mistake given the circumstances, But

it's not like that weird of a trust. I mean, you know, granted, it seems like he would be saying all these things if any of these were the thing. And the stuff is the fact is that McGinnis seems to be the one. Okay, I was about to say that McGinnis seems to have been the one that made all the statements about Dwayne, but then I also realized the fallacy in that statement, which is she is the one that died, and therefore all of her friends and

family are recounting the things that she had said. If we flipped the tables and she had lived and Dwayne had been hunted down and shot in a supposed suicide position, we probably would have heard flip side things from his friends and real So I'm going to take that back. I mean, but the timeline with Dwayne is my my biggest, biggest difficulty because it just doesn't It doesn't work unless

they're you know, not connected. Which part yeah, which is the very next theory, like I looked ahead in the script or so well, they could be connected in in other ways, so loud, Supposing Dwyne is a very clever guy, you hit a problem with the timeline. But supposing uh, Dwayne after this outrageous thing where you know, basically it looked to me like somebody just was trying to get him fired from his job. He's angry, goes home, sitting around drinking a beer, cooling off, and looks in the

papers and see as well, Mary Morris died. Hey cool, and then he read the article to realizes it's not the same Mary Morris. But then he thinks about it and thinks, wait a second, if I were to knock off my Mary Morris, it would look you know, let's say, okay, let's pick up the phone, let's call the newspapers say they got the wrong Mary Morris. Now I got knock her off, and it'll look like a hit gone wrong. So you have made part one A of the next theory. I will now talk about Part one B, which is

very similar and this one. You So you said they're unconnected, but it's Dwayne. I had that it's unconnected, but it's Mike for very similar reasons. Sees that she's been killed, Henderson has been killed, and oh, this would be really convenient, and then has his wife knocked off, at which point he can be well, I don't think he can knock her off himself because he's at the movie theater with his daughter, so the timeline doesn't I think is too

too tight for that. But he could then begin this this campaign of disinformation and you know, mud slinging at Dwayne for what was maybe not such a big deal at the office to his wife, but in the retellings it becomes, as we've seen with retellings, bigger and bigger and bigger to grander scales, so both it could be unconnected, and one or the other of them could have taken advance inntage of the just random happenstance of a Mary Morris having been killed, by the way, be a little

different than the Dwayne theory, because he if he hired a hit man, it must it would have taken a lot longer than just a few days to go find somebody, you know, and had him knock his wife off. If if he had not been planning to have his wife killed prior to that, you're right, But if he had been thinking, I want to get her killed, or he was drinking with a buddy on Saturday afternoon and the dude was like, do you give me five grand I'll kill her. I'll just totally kill her. Uh, what's to

say Mike didn't called Dwayne up. It's also possible. This is where these theories get so interwoven, because, like we said, they had met, they knew they at least in passing, and knew each other, and for differing reasons, they could have wanted Mary McGinnis Morris dead. I the other thing, I'm just gonna go ahead and throw out here, just like a throw mama from the train. Well, it's just

been swirling around in my head. Is that? So we don't know who Mary was having the affair with or was not apparent does not I've never seen the name mentioned, Okay, and so we're pretty sure though it wasn't Dwayne, and that this was all show to keep there from being some kind of problems with hr as far as I know, or I had the same thought of could it have been Dwayne and maybe that's what soured things between them, But as far as I know, it was not doing.

He has not said that. He apparently was in a relationship the whole time, So if it was Dwayne, he had a very good reason to not admit it. Yeah, presumably the police know about this, of course, as usual, they're being pigs about the whole thing. Yeah, okay, Well that that's pretty at the end of that theory. Yeah, we we have. So let's let's go on to what I have as the final theory, which is that they

were completely and totally unrelated, entirely possible. And when you when I stopped and I think about them, and you start to look at the scenes, I don't I mean, people always say that, well it was the hit man, and this and this, but but but they're not all that related to me. Mary Henderson. We don't know exactly how she was killed, but she was killed, and a couple of things were stolen. We know we're stolen. And

then she and her car were incinerated. Mcguinnis Morris, Mary McGinnis Morris was beaten, gagged and shot and left to be discovered and not burned, but also in her car. But it at at the vehicle is the only real similarity. And in a city that at that time had a population of over two million people, it's not all that surprising that a rather common name of Mary Morris you could have in a weekend two people with the same

name being killed. It's not astronomical, not at all. We haven't talked about Mary Henderson Morris too much in in this last half hour. I'm going to guess, as it's been so far, let's talk about her for a minute, and let's talk about the reasons that her body may have been treated the way it was. It is entirely possible that something happened at the time that whoever did it wanted to cover up. If you think about two thousand c S. I had been on for about a year.

The whole country was just obsessed with blood spatter analysis, like everybody's figuring out how this stuff works. Okay, So what would be a motive to abduct a woman sadly rape? Okay? So what is an easy way to to hide the evidence of a sexual encounter that was not mutual with a body? You burned you and you burned the whole thing and there is not a bit of DNA evidence left over, so to me, but what time? Sorry, what time was this? It was like in early in the morning.

She left her house at six, The fiers reported at ten, So there's time in between abducted and and taken somewhere and then dumped and burned. This is this is probably not a thing you should say, but it just seems really early in the morning for a time like that. I'm sorry, but I understand what For some reason that just some reason, it seems like the rapists would all be from nine pm off, But apparently that's not the case. Theyard shifts maybe maybe, or maybe he's just a dude

and he woke up. I was like, I'm going to do some rape in today. I don't know, I mean, that's hideous, but that's what people do, so okay. So that to me is the reason why her crime scene would have been treated the way that it was. And as for why her wedding ring and purse were taken but her other jewelry was left behind, well, there may have not been an immediate presumed value to what she was hearing. Maybe she was wearing ceramic earrings and a

necklace that didn't have any obvious value. Why take it and then try and figure that out. That's a lot of work. Screw it. That's a gold and diamond. And I know you have cash in your your purse because she was known to use cash and not credit cards, so she would have had cash in her wallet, which would encourage somebody to just take the whole day a purse. So it makes sense. Whereas mcguinnis Morris, all of her belongings were there, except possibly for her cell phone. Yeah,

except possibly for her cell phone. But all of her stuff is there. So like, these are the mos to me, the motives are the treatments are very very different. For one hit man, I agree, I agree, But the other reason that you might try to cleanse a case or a crime scene like that is, if you have accidentally killed the wrong person and you are trying to cover

up that crime as much as possible. There is that right you you know, go through her wallet and go oh oops, um, this isn't the right person at all, so you take everything and you burn it. I mean, I don't think it's a great I doubt that a husband would say, my wife's name is Mary McGinnis Morris, Please kill Mary McGinnis Morris, and make sure you get Mary McGinnis Morris. And here's this photo of us. Look quick, quick, okay,

go get her. You know, the hitman, it's gonna say it's the I D says Mary H. Morris or Mary M. Morris. Well more than that, the hitman's got to know. You can't just like go driving around town until he runs across her. He's got to know, like where she lives or where she works are both preferably so it's hard to mix the two up. And they crossed the their their roots of you know, versus workplaces versus home spaces.

There was some intersection between the two. So it is possible that our Mr Magoo hitman inadvertently spotted the wrong Mary and said, oh, well, this Mary is supposed to be in this area, so that must be her. But no, I agree with you, it's I think it's unlikely. Yea, extremely Unlichael. And again you're going to You're going to Union Karabid to look from Mary works as a medical That's right, I got I gotta mixed up there. You're not going to direct us the other Mary and say, oh,

there goes the other Mary Morris. You have no idea that her name is Mary Morris because nobody has told you anything about her. No, no, man, don't tend to stand out to the offense. Excuse me, what's your name? What's your name? I got a contract? What's your name? What's your name? Well, now, the the other way they could be related is imagined that the killer was actually

Mary one's husband, J. J. Morris. That would explain why the body was burned for the first one, because first of all, I mean, you've knocked off your wife, and obviously you're the husband. You're gonna be the first suspect, so you know, what do you do? You can knock off another Mary Morris shortly thereafter. Therefore, it's the immediately people are gonna be thinking hit, got hit gone wrong, and obviously the attention is going to shift to Mike and off of you regardless of Okay, so now you

you're casting shade on j Morris. Okay, but the same it's a possibility, and I'm not going to disagree with that. But but regardless, I would imagine that this is just in my my guesses about this whole thing. As I've already said, I would think that if you were going to off somebody and you were going to dispose of their body, you would do it one way, and the second time you had to do it, you would probably most likely follow the same pattern. People are not that

creating unless you got interrupted, Yeah, there's that. Well, you don't really need to, I mean, I mean you think about why he might have burned the body in the first case, besides hiding evidence. He doesn't because he doesn't need a hide DNA of it. It's assuming that it was his wife. But imagine the body hadn't been burned,

then what would he have had to do. He would have had to go down to the moregan identify the body correct and most people, at least if you're a smart murderer, you're going to know your limitations, and you're gonna know, you're gonna know whether you actually have any acting ability or not. Now, if you murdered your wife and you've got an idea the body, um, you know you might this could be one area where you could really get tripped up. Okay, So I see where you're going, Joe, Yeah,

I don't. I've never in the reading, And granted, the reading about Mary Henderson Morris is a little less robust than Mary McGinnis Morris. But most stuff in there does not indicate that there was any troubles in the marriage or any reasons for him to have done that. But let's not forget that. Yeah, no, there wasn't. But let's not forget people do things. Well, let's not forget that. Immediately, the whole hip thing gone wrong theory immediately popped up

into everybody. That's the internet part second, d yes, the Internet's brain, the police's brains, everybody. And so that really took the heat off of JA big time. And so there might have been some stuff going on. Who the hell knows, I mean, I mean, you don't know what's going on. I mean, I've known people who seemed very very happily married and well they're divorced. Now, I mean that stuff happens. And so again I'm not accusing j

if anything, but this is a much neglected theory. Yeah, well it does explain a few things, because again, the whole hit man theory, when you think about it, really doesn't make any sense. So the the other thing about the hit man theory that doesn't work is that there does appear to be an angle of theft in Mary Henderson Morris's death because six months after her death, Jay

started getting a bill from her calling card. Because this is back in the days when you had a calling card to make long distance calls to the tune of two thousand dollars. The cops track it down. Some teenage girl has that card. She says, I found this purse in this parking lot in Galveston. She she apparently then gave the purse to a friend. The police go to that friend who has the purse. It does not obviously have any of Mary's stuff in it. You know, this

person has just chucked all that stuff. But they then here's the weird part is they then turn around and they go to Mary Henderson Morris's family and they say, hey, is this her purse, and they all say, no, she did.

She didn't know that purse either a it and nothing has ever been put out there that if anybody ever asked Mary mcguinnis Morris's family if it was her purse or be it could be some weirdo robbery killer guy who he took her her stuff, you know, her wallet or cards or whatever, and tossed it into the next purse or the prior purse that he had stolen and eventually just did a big dump and dumped it into a parking lot and left. Because Galveston is less than

it's like twenty miles away. It's it's super close. Actually, I don't think it's that far away. But yeah, it's not inconceivable that somebody could have ridden around her purse, taken out any items of possible value to him and he didn't see any particular value and something like say a calling card, so he just left it. Somebody else

came along and actually took that. But it's it's the differences in purses, that's that's the thing where Henderson's Henderson to start out, it didn't have to stay in the same purse to another too. That's what I'm saying, so it's but it's it's a weird thing where suddenly six

months later it pops up. Jay also started getting weirdo phone calls asking for his wife a couple of months after she died, though, the cops traced those to an apartment complex, and as soon as he stopped saying she's not here and started saying, oh, yeah, you can find her at and gave the sheriff's department's phone number, the guy stopped calling. So, I mean like somebody tortured him to a degree. I feel like Jay got jerked around. And I don't know whether that's in related that that's

directly connected to his wife it's death or not. Because there are sickos out there who just think that it's fun to do that. Yeah, I don't know, there sure are. It could have been somebody like me who just concluded that he was a real murderer and torture him. Yeah, it could be to try and shake it out of it. Yeah, don't you need to stop doing that? Yeah, and again, just just just for the sake of whatever, you know,

that's just a theory I had. No, I'm not accusing you, you know, I don't think there's all kinds of random possibilities in this one. That's all other theories that we have for this episode or for this story. I should say,

I guess we should give everybody the fun interesting. They've been waiting this entire time for details, which is the stuff about us, because I know you want to know about us, so to talk to us, Actually we probably want to know more about me, so to talk to you, Joe, you can send an email to Joe at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. You have to stop talking like that, I know. So that's our email address where you can send questions, comments, concerns, just about anything we

will respond to. We have all of our stuff available on our website, so that is the episodes as well as some of our research for this and all episodes. That website is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can find us on iTunes where you can subscribe and rate. You can find us on most of the streaming sources, whether that be Stitcher or Google or wherever, and if those sites allow you to rate and review, please do. We're on social media, so we are on Twitter where

we're Thinking Sideways. We are also on Reddit. We have a thread or forum. But why can I s I Reddit? Thank you? Why can I never remember what Reddit does? It is? It turns out I grew a beard and I realized how much white there was in it, and my wife said, oh, you look like Santa Claus and I said, oh, damn, the Santa territory. Yet, I know, I was really disturbed by what I was, like, what did you say? I'm getting that fat crap. We are

also on social media. We are on Facebook, so we have the Facebook page and the Facebook group, so like the page, joined the group. Lots of good conversations going on in there. We have on the website links to merchandise, so we have shirts, we have mugs, we have stickers. All that stuff is available. You can find it on the right hand panel through both Zazzle and or Red Bubble,

depending on what you're buying. It's all there, and that's really all the fun details unless you want to talk to Joe, at which which point you will send an email directly to Joe at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com for Joe. Please put in the subject line for Joe and expect to not get a response for two weeks. All right, Well, everybody, we're going to go ahead and wrap this one up and call it, call it a night, and we will talk to you next week,

next week, next time. I'm going to get it right the first time. Oh my god bye. It's like he had a pair of him. You don't always do. Practice makes perfect