Thinking Sideways: The Murder of Catrine da Costa

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Sarah Peckin. In here the story listeners are calling Wow, just Wow, and one of the best audio books ever narrated by Julia Wheelan a twisty psychological suspense about a jealous wife is not what you think. Start listening now at McMillan audio dot com slash wife between us think. Hey there, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always by Steve and Devon, and today this

week we're going to talk about another unsolved mystery. Yeah. Uh, we're gonna talk about the unsolved murder from Catherine da Costa ut. Pronouncing that right, I'm gonna mispronounce every word I say. I feel like any time like we get a lot of suggestions for Swedish otherwise kind of that area mysteries, and every time I feel like it's just because people want to hear us struggle. There's a lot of who are very very honestly willing to help us.

They are it doesn't help him over the internet, and therefore it does not help us. Pronounce unless you're gonna, like send us actual audio files of you saying the words, it's not that barely works. Yeah, just as a small warning there, there are some things that which should be considered adult content. So viewer discretion is advised and also a listener discretion to thank goodness, because the viewership is really low. These people are staring at their iPods going

what the hell? Actually, we were apparently on a run of this kind of story because this is like, yeah, I hate to admit it, but stories like this are really easy. Well I'm telling you right now, Next week not going to have any warnings whatsoever, going to be the nicest, blandest story. It's going to be wholesome. Yeah, next white, next week, the story is is actually going to be about my Little Pony. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, don't even go there though, because they get but my

Little Pony fandom gets a little whatever. Anyway, the story, yeah, okay, alright, anyway, sorry here. Oh yeah, So catin Da Costa she was she was twenty eight years old when she vanished. That would have been that was June test four when she was last seen. Um, she was she had been drug addicted since high school and and was clear up to the end had a big problem with drugs and so eventually, yeah,

and eventually that sort of drove her into prostitution. And she was working at the time of her death in Stockholm in an area town that's called Mom's Achilles Gotten, which is like kind of this business district. Apparently that all the all the prostitutes and went to and their drug dealing was going on. That apparently they've cleaned out all up and it's you know, and of course it's vanished completely. No now it's it's moved somewhere else. But

that's what the neighborhood was called in that time. She uh had moved around a little bit, struggled, as I said, with drugs. She moved to Portugal for a while, got married, had a kid, and then when she got back to Sweden, unfortunately the child was taken away from her by social services and by reportedly her drug habit had gotten worse, which typically happens. Yeah, they tend to get worse and worse. Yea worse and worse. She had odeed a few times, and she you know, of course, you know you need

more drugs. That means you need more money. So she started taking on clients that the other women in the area would refuse, you know, the guys who were the real sicko types, the violent ones and stuff. Yeah, so she tried to started taking on a kind of risk of your business. So it's always so sad. I feel like when people get stuck in that cycle. You know, yeah, it kind of it's kind of like a how you know, is it their fault? Is it not their faults? Who knows?

But like just like it's sad no matter what. So you know, you know, obviously addiction is a big thing. It happens to the best of us. But you know, she probably would have been better off going into rehab. I think I can say, yeah, it is, but you totally easier but exactly, yeah, it's easier to say that. But well, any way, back to her disappearance. Apparently last she was last seen in Mom's Kells gotten in on

June tents getting out of a client's car. Uh. Five weeks later, that would be mid July eighty four, some of our body parts were found in a plastic bag in a suburb of Stockholm, dear what's called the Kolinski or Kolinska Institute, Yeah, which is like a hospital, a medical uh somewhere nearby there. And then three weeks after that, that would have been early August, another garbage bag of body parts was found less than a mile away. And

so they've got most everything. They put her all back together kind of except for her head, which was never found. There were some other bits, some other bits, so I won't give you a detailed list. There were specific gender organs like the kini areas. Yeah, there's that. And also some of her internal organs were never found. I'm pretty sure her being a heroin addict, I'm pretty sure they were not sold for transplants. Probably not. But her hands luckily were intact, and so they were able to idea

her through her fingerprints. The organs that were missing, were they the kind that you would transplant normally? I have no idea what organs were going, to be honest with you. I thought it was like some intestines, which we just learned apparently that's like a thing, but probably not. But yeah, I thought it was just kind of these weird and ocuuss like why would they be missing organs? But maybe not.

I don't really know. And that's a good question. I mean, in the whole dissection thing that probably when you're busy cutting out the body, there's certain things that just sort of then this is going to be gross, but probably just sort of fall out. And so although at the same time that makes no sense because you would think you're just stuff them in the garbage bags. You're stuffing

everything else into right. Well, but I mean some of the other body parts that were missing seemed like I mean, that seems more like intentional trophies, you know, as we're talking about again these like kind of bikini areas, um that we're missing. That seems like a trophy keep for somebody versus you know, the organ. So if you are, you know, just you've got some stuff in a pile

over there. Maybe that just slipped in doubt or maybe the guy had hogs and I don't know, but then you would just feed all of it to the hogs, wouldn't you would? Right, they'll eat it all. Hogs only eat the finest liver and intestines and breast and whatever those bits. Okay, So anyway, now we've gotten to that. Oh, by the way, I wanted I wanted to thank Candice who suggested this for got Yeah sorry, yeah, sorry Candice.

I should have said something earlier and wait until we were right in the middle of all the gross parts. But I do thank you for suggesting it, and I'm sure a lot of other our other Swedish listeners are probably mentioned it to at some point, So thanks to all of you too, Uh, well anyway, it says, you all know, it's one thing to murder somebody, but when you start chopping them up into pieces, well that gets people's attention. That's another thing entirely. Yeah, usually people would

consider that to be beyond the pale. Ye. Yeah. And so this became a really big case in Sweden, and if you live in Sweden, I'm sure you've heard of it. It's apparently one of their biggest doneselve mysteries, especially especially in the like, you know, mid eighties. Yeah. I guess we're more used to that kind of stuff these days with the internet and TV and well, I mean just more that this case happened in the mid eighties, but it's still around and we'll still talk about it writing

about it. But but as Steve said, it is called the cutting up murder. At least that's the sort of crude English translation of it. There's some very long Swedish word. Yeah, yeah, I don't ever like their long words, don't. And the Germans I feel really like shove them all together. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry I might have missed it. You might have said it, but how how were they able to identify the body fingerprints? So her hands weren't I did find

the hands. Yeah, okay, so yeah, at all they pieced it all together, everything went together, and yeah it was all the same body and fingerprints. Yeah, and then the tabloid showed up and oh yeah I got huge and that went. Yeah, I just went kind of crazy from there. They didn't inspire some famous books. Yeah, supposedly they are actually books written literally about this story. Documentaries were done.

But also supposedly it's been claimed that a few famous Swedish writers like Stig Larson you know you're familiar with that guy, was inspired the tattoo. Yeah, which, by the way, I just recently saw the both both versions of that movie. Oh, I read the book. The book was good. Yeah, I watched the movie. I haven't gotten to either of those things.

So yeah, but if somebody wasn't doing their research, yeah, because that was the big part of it, you're right, sorry now, But actually having seen both of those movies, I saw the original plus to Daniel Craig remake in English, and I consider myself to be an expert on Swedish society and culture. Should yeah, totally. I considered myself to be an expert on Swedish culture in society by because I've gone Twikia a couple of times. Oh there you go,

I eat Swedish fish. I'm so sorry. Yeah, okay, Well, you know the one thing I noticed about Ikea though, is that when you go there, you know, it's that Swedish furniture looks exactly like American furniture. Yeah, because it's just harder to put together. Yeah, now, well that's because I was. It's just no, it's because American furniture is all I keia. I mean, averybody I know has Ikea in their house. Oh, back to our story. As Steve said,

the tablets did go nuts over this. I was just showing Devon before we started recording a copy of one of the stories. You'll find a picture of it on Instagram. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's an so four weeks ago a yeah

when this uh uh. And of course, this case also became a big cost for the women's rights groups because in Katrine Cain excuse me, became a symbol for the ill treatment of women in Swedish society, which I can't really comment because I've never been to Sweden, but I mean I would say there's some not to like go

on a political soapbox necessarily or anything. But I would say that, yes, like there is a general lack of care for women who are put into situations like this, who particularly women who end up, you know, being in the sex working industry or sex trade. You know, there is that general kind of lack of not in this room certainly, but in society and general lack of kind of care of their own safety. Yeah. They they make

convenient targets pure sure. I mean yeah often. I mean same with like women who are experiencing homelessness or anything like that. I mean, you know, women on the kind of fringe of society and men to certainly less a little bit, but men and women on the fringes of society do tend to be easy victims. Well, I was reading the other day some stat about, you know, sex workers in this type of situation you actually being used ter street walker, because that's put you in the most

direct line of fire. But I was reading and I did. I can't remember what the number was for the you know, the percentage of likelihood of death, but it was I was like, that's not right. And then I walked away and I'm standing, I'm like, that's a really big number, like another reason to not go into that, particularly profession I would say, yeah, but unfortunately area some people feel

like that's their only option. Again, you know, certainly like drug addiction often pleays into that, and that there were certain certain societies like you know, I mean in Russia after the big collapse in the economy, it went all to hell, a lot of women turned to prostitution. And I mean, and we're talking like professional women started doing it stuff, you know what happens. But anyway, but I don't want to get down to Yeah, I was gonna say,

I'm gonna step up. But the other controversy is, of course, the trials. There were two trials about this. There were yeah, there were, Yeah, A couple of suspects were rustled up. They were put on trial for the murder. They were convicted, but the verge was overturned and that was that, except there was a huge outcry about the whole thing, and so they were put on trial again, and second time around they were acquitted. Um, and so they want on just to lead their lives, except their lives are kind

of destroyed. But yeah, yeah, that's hard. That's I was going to say, like a public campaign like this is is almost impossible to overcome and to get a fair hearing, I mean, and even yeah, and even if it turns out that you are innocent, you know, there's kind of that guilty by public opinion situation that happens a lot these days, and it's kind of unfortunate. Yeah, but also maybe sometimes okay, well, it just depends on if they

were guilty or not. But I can say, I can say and equivocally like having read a few of the tabloid stories about the murderers, if they were indeed murders, that even if they were guilty, the stuff that was said about them in the tabloids was just totally inflammatory. Beyond inflammatory things that were said, they were obviously not true. Obviously obviously they did. They were just they made these people out to be vampires and you know, mass murderers.

Literally not he's not, he's not, Like, yeah, I know, but Joe was like saying, like, truly, again, if you go look our instagram, not to push too much, there's this article that's just like he was an actual vampire. Like that was the claim that they were making. It wasn't just like they were making them out to be these like yeah literally, yeah yeah, yeah, And so I could say that it's probably pretty hard to recover your reputation after something like that. Yeah, but this is still

hotly debated. A lot of people thought that they and still think that they were guilty. Um, you know, of course the tabloids and but other people think they were railroaded. Well, anyway, let's take a look at the suspects. Yet, we got a lot of theories about this is one of those weird ones. We have a very short intro because the shorty story so small, but the theory section is the majority of it. Don't be confused here. We're not breaking right now story not yet. Okay, here we go. That's

not it. It's like, oh, sorry, that was I was doing the What was the phenomena? Yep, that's the one I was doing. That's what I always do. Okay, So we got the music out of the way, alright, phenomena. All right, let's look at the theories here. So Chuppy. I haven't mentioned Chuppy for a while, you haven't. I recently did a board at work casual a m A on Twitter. You guys may may not have seen one of the number one most asked questions, was what did Chuppy ever do to Joe that he accuses him of

like stuff all the time. And I was like, listen, nothing, okay, according to our response to the legal suit, nothing happened, and nothing every shall and we shall out officially blame him for anything never ever. No, no, I will tell you what happened is yeah, your goal. I don't think Chippy was involved. No, it wasn't. No, It's not not that at all. It's it's just, you know, when we're looking for a little filler, you know, we'll talk about Chippy, you know. Uh. But also I just like his name.

You know, he's got a cool name, Chippy, Yeah, Chip. Yeah. But I want to like this sory, and I you know, I do like this sery. But well, okay, you know where I'm you know where I'm going here. Okay, it wasn't. How about the next one. Next theory, there's another theory out there. I mean, it turns out that from the body parts collected, they were never actually able to establish a cause of death. So it's not bullet wound or

stab wound or the head. Yeah. But the hard part with that is, like somebody cut off her head, like that could have been the cause of death. They don't have the head. They don't have the head, so they don't know. I don't know. Somebody could have like, yeah, there's so many different things that could have happened to her body. Because they cut it up afterwards, it's hard to tell what happened. Yeah, I mean, so it's so technically, yes, they didn't have a cause of death. Yeah, basically diving,

overdose and uh. And somebody decided to practice their dissection skills. They were not very good at it. Well, actually they were pretty good, and some people were really good. They got her into a bunch of little pieces. Yeah Mechlaxander said that it looked professional. Another another idea is that it was just somebody that somebody comes across the dead body and think, hey, this is what a great troll.

This will be. Well, we'll chop the body up in the bits, put it in garbage bags, and we'll leave it distributed around town and people will go nuts. So rude. Yeah, I kind of find that hard to believe too. That's a pretty extreme troll. I could picture somebody doing that, except for the part about getting thrown in prison for many years. If you get busted for doing it, and you always you always make this mistake of assuming that

people think out repercussions of their actions. I mean, logan, Paul, Paul, do you not know about this? Which is that use a YouTube quote unquote YouTube sensation who thought it would be cool to go into the Japanese suicide forest and film a recently suicide body idea. Oh no, I don't remember this, but I can only imagine how badly that

Oh yeah, really really bad. And how did the Japanese feel about They're like, this is an atrocity, Like I mean, yeah, basically they were like, we would love to prosecute you if if you know, if America would extra that you,

we'd love to prosecute you. And America is like, now, but this just happened, and YouTube just no, he didn't kill anybody, but like it's very port but it's it's the same sort of thing, right, It's like profiting off of getting something off of a dead body, the same thing as like kind of cutting up I guess maybe not, but you know, almost the same thing as cutting up a dead body to just like get a bit, not just get your jollies, but to just watch everybody else

lose their heads over it's what happened here. But literally, this is not a joke. Yeah, I didn't make the head and shoulders above the restaurant. Okay, let's keep going. Okay, so, but so that's what you gotta put that into the realm of the possible but extremely unlikely Okay, yeah, super unlikely. Yeah, and of course dragons, Dungeons and dragons, it's like their props. No, not like this. We've proven that that whole thing is

not real. No, Dungeons and Dragons players do like their props, but the only reason they really like their props is because you buy them and then you get to paint them yourselves. That's them all. Yeah, okay, that's how that works with right, Okay, let's keep going because I just emails from this episode, have the time, Yeah, now we don't. So, but even though I considered a possibility that she was not even murdered, she died of natural like an o,

it's unlikely. It does seem unlikely. Yeah, it seems very unlikely. But ever did happen? Whoever actually did it? You know, you could have come forward and says, hey, by the way, you're all overreacting and you're putting these guys on trial. I chopped the body up, but she was already dead. Of course that guy didn't come forward and say that out of your mind to do that. Let's move on

to our next theory. This is an actual person whose name was Stanislav Gonerka, who was a Polish person, I think, a Polish immigrant to Sweden, and we're just going to call him Stan because I can't possibly try to pronounce I can pronounce it, sadly, it's just last thing that's kind of a still. I just want to call him Stan. I don't know Stan. Yeah, we'll call him Stan. But

Stan was a butcher by profession. He had been locked up in a mental institution for about ten years because well, in nineteen seventy four he murdered a young woman by strangling her and then he cut his kind of body up in the small piece is put in garbage bags, um and very similar to and the head that he was never found. Katherine, Yeah it was. I think I think Katherine is a correct pronunciation. But so this does sound like an awfully familiar it does. Yeah, I'm sorry,

you may or may not have an answer to this. Question, why is he put in a menstal mental institution instead of jail. I guess they must have decided maybe his his his attorney might have pleaded insanity. So it turns out that's not so common. He was in the seventies, even in the seventies, and it's another country and we don't know exactly how their system works. I'll just say that it turns out the whole like insanity thing is

not so common because it out that falls apart. Well, either it falls apart or the sentence of insanity is like way worse. That's that's the problem, doesn't It doesn't mean they just let you go, because if they put you an insane asylum and then somehow you have to prove you're not insane, which is that's hard. That's probably harder than convincing the board. Yeah, from but I'm not insane. I'm not insane. For the next for you guys have

heard that thing, right, there was the journalist. I'm sure that our listeners have heard this, but I'll just briefly, like high level, there was a journalist at one point in like the late eighteen hundreds who was like, I just want to prove how corrupt the insane asylum industry is by getting myself insane person committed to the insane.

So she pretended to be insane, got committed, and then as soon as she was there, started like acting like a normal, totally sane person, and they were like, no, you're still super insane and kept her. It took like her publisher had to come in, like five different people had to come in. It was a very long process to get her out. But ye know, it turns out, yeah, so that don't do that. Guys, don't pretend to be

insane to get admitted to insane asylum. But the whole you know, in that whole thing, at least here in America that they do process component of it as a little better than it used to be. But in the old days, it used to be scarily easily easy to commit somebody. Oh yeah, that was that was especially women, especially women. It was super easy to get women exactly, And so because you were upset about something, you were hysterical.

Rough anyway, So he was he spent time in instead of a prison, Okay, although I imagine the psychiatric hospital wasn't much more fun and ten years either places probably pretty rough, probably so he got out in April four. Yeah, and I'm sorry, when was our our victim murdered? Sometimes sometime after June tenth, so, and I'm assuming it's the police seem to believe that murder took place very shortly

after that. It must have been by the state of the parts of the would assume, Yeah, they were able to establish that, but really, I mean, she could have been held somewhere for a week or so or two maybe, but you would ready to discern that the week or two's difference after that much time has elapsed at the body parts have been Yeah, they've been all sitting around.

Imagine that. Yeah, I would imagine I and of course I'm not an expert on this at all, that probably bodies deteriorated at a different rate when they're a whole body versus chopped up in the small pieces. It's like it's crushed ice versus an entire block of ice. I was gonna say, yeah, it's more like you know, you wherever there is exposure, Yeah, you're going to decompose exposed surface.

That's what crushed ice. Blood. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, that makes sense now, but context h yeah, well yeah, anyway, Stan was it looks this kind of looks bad for Stan. I mean, it makes it look like a pretty good suspect, I would say, I mean, wouldn't you think he gets out of it, gets out of like the mental institution and somebody dies right after that, just like the old the last one died. The police did take a look at him because he was it turns out a regular

down there at the red light district. I already told you what it was called earlier, but that's so hard to protect. Yeah, he had actually he'd been seen there hanging out there in June when Catarine disappeared. Uh, he was known to the police as a dangerous person, violent person, violent dangerous person. Yeah, apparently, And according to Swedish newspapers. And this is not just the tabloids, but according to the newspapers, his name was found in Catherine's diary. Again

with the diary. Again with the diary. Apparently it was one of our one of our coworkers or colleagues actually gave it to police. Apparently it's disappeared now. I'm just saying, like in our the last episode, we also talked about a diary being like the only thing that linked somebody to the crime. So yeah, yeah, Hank, I'm gonna have to start keeping a diary. Yeah, Stephen Devon again, you stop it, dear Diary. It's weird they keep coming back,

dear Diary. They joked about taking out a life insurance policy on me der diary, going shooting with Devon and Steve tomorrow. Don't do it. Please document all that stuff. What else about Stand they ruled about as a suspects pretty early on, and nobody seems to know why. I know, at least I've heard pretty conclusively that he did not actually have an alibi for the way where he was at at that time period, and so it wasn't the

alibi apparently that ruled him out. So I'm not sure what exactly caused police to rule him out as a suspect. I thought at one point, at least in the last decade or so, they had acquired skin samples, does this sound correct samples to try and conclusively prove that it wasn't he wasn't involved. But that's one of those things. It's here's the flash in the pan news report that

never gets followed up on. Yeah, the last I read about that was an article that was published in two thousand ten, and as of that time, the issue was still up in the air as to whether this these tissue samples that was taken after his death at work conclusively or not conclusively linking him to the murder. Nothing. I feel like i've again like since we don't really know how it is that he ended up in a

psychiatric hospital versus uh, actual like jail. Yeah, I almost wonder if that had a little bit to do with the police kind of dismissing him. I don't know what his problem was. That he would get drunk and become super violent. That was, that was, and that's appears to be what happened in seventy four, And the girls in that area in four appeared to recognize or at least two have suffered his behavior enough that they were shutting him out. Is what I've seen in some places, because

you know, you get out, you're free. Let's celebrate. I get drunk, I get brutal. Let's go find a girl and beat the holy crap out of her and have a good time to break and where it gets around among the among the sex workers prostitutes, that you stay, Yeah, you kind of like you look out for your own right, you stay like, yeah, you stay away from that job. As we know, Katherine was was willing to take on that kind of because she was desperate for money. So yeah,

I don't really know, but I don't know. I tend to trust, however, like for better for worse, I tend to trust the police that they must have had some reason. But one of the reasons I think they might have ruled them out as they might have found a better suspect. Yeah, be suspects, so it might. It might well be that they didn't rule him out for great reasons so much. It was just they just pursued other aspects, somebody they

like better, and so they just dropped stand. And as for him, he died as you as you were said. They took some tissue samples before they buried him or cremated they did whatever they did with his body. Yeah, and so those are still around. They might be helpful someday in solving the crime. So far they haven't been. But anyway, well, we'll set up aside as a as a possible theory for our purp and we'll move on to another purp here. But first before we do that,

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and we're back. Okay. Our next theory or suspect A man named Tete Harm. Yeah, great name harm there. So it's it's like, yeah, were the a there's a nem out so in the Swedish pronunciation rules, I have no idea what I've seen his name spelled so many ways that I was unsure. Yeah, so it might be had him or whole him or something. I'm not sure, probably not just harm. Probably that's the way. That's the way it's spelled in pronunction in the English pronunciation. So let's

talk about but we'll just harm. Uh. Well. He was a forensic pathologist who was working at the Carley Instant, the Carolinska Institute. Name sounds familiar. That's that's near where the initial bag of body parts was found in Stockholm. That was, in of course, ur the body parts. The second bag was actually found less than a mile away, as I said, And it turns out his the Carolinska Institute was in between those two places, in the in

between in the it was bracketed by those two places. Yeah, and physically, and he was a consultant sometimes with the police on murders and suspicious deaths because his specialty, that makes sense, the forensic pathologists. The specialty was death by strangulation. Yeah, he was kind of talking like a Dexter situation. I kind of like that, or well, when the tabloids trying to make it make it as kind of a Hannibal electric kind of situation where he was like this, he

totally helped the police solve crimes. He was brilliant and solved many, many murders. But it turned out, you know, he wasn't because he was constantly making killing behind the scenes. That he was busy slaughtering people left and right himself, according to the tabloids, not necessarily in real life. He just realized, I never finished Dexter. I didn't either. I stopped watching like mid I think it's made it like season. We've talked about this matter. I'm sorry, that was just

the train of thought. I can I can tell you how it ends, Okay, well and just go back and watch it. Actually what happens as he kills everybody. So that's about the end of it and then analyzes their blitzpatter. Yeah. Yeah, so back to teit harm. Uh. The fact that he was he had this sort of morbid specialty didn't really play well with the public, be as you can imagine. Yeah. Uh. And what happened is that essentially somebody called the police after the body was found, it was all chopped up,

somebody called the police. Turns out it was his former father in law who called the police, yeah, and said suggested that he would be a viable suspector before that, he was not actually on the police's radar at all. The reason his father is his father in law apparently never liked him to begin with. But then his wife's name was Anne Catherine when he was and she died in two she was found strangled to death in their bedroom. Officially, yeah,

well she was she officially she hanged herself. Yeah, but as often happens with amateur amateur hangings, people wind up strangling themselves death by Yeah, if you do it right, you know, you know, you snapped the snap your neck. But if you don't, well you choked to death, which was horrible. Yeah, well, it definitely would prolong the situation

for a bit. Yeah, So she was found hanging from the side of her bed with the quarter on her neck, and uh, it looked as one of the things that was odd about it is she was, according to the press, dressed up for a night out, I'm sorry, hanging from the side of her bed. I think that this was not, you know, like the four poster bed kind of thing, is how I picturing. This had to be, you know, something that had the tall corner posts and maybe even the crossbars up high like that kind of bed, like

a princess bed. A lot of a lot of suicides. By hanging to there, they're actually not dangling over the ground. They're actually partly contacting the ground even right well when we've talked about that, but I imagine that if she was in a situation where she didn't break her neck and she was God, we've gone over this so many times. If she is, you know, she's strangling, any purchase is purchased, So I have to I got a feel that it was something that was above head high from Yeah, and

uh that or her husband killed her. It could have been actually because she had apparently she was divorcing him, which is often considered a murder motive. But what you said was, you know, everybody said, well, she was dressed up for a night on the town. But it is not uncommon for people to say I would like to look my best on my last day. Sure I put put on all the makeup, do your hair up right,

put on your best dress, and then for yourself. Sure absolutely, you know, but that did seem a little strange, and of course the papers printed that which didn't look things look so good for Teethe harm police also said that his behavior at the time seemed a little callous, but you never know. I mean, they were divorcing and it might have been all the all the fun had gone out of the relationship, and so maybe he was. He's a forensic pathologist, though he is around death. That's true too.

To be to have thick enough skin to be around that kind of stuff all the time and have it not bother you probably means that you have the equivalent of the British stiff upper lip. And so when it's your wife that dies, nobody knows what you're feeling because you were just putting on your workface. I don't know, I don't know, just I guess I would say, like we're not right. These forensic just we don't go see dead bodies all the time. But we talked about death

a lot. But I would say that having a recent death and experiencing a recent death of somebody that was close to me, it's totally different. You know, it's totally different to this person. It's like, oh, that's just a dead body. That's you know, whatever. Not to be callous, but that's that's whatever. To like somebody that you have an emotional connection, whether it be kind of like tenuous and crappy. This guy wasn't a ghoul. I mean, he

may very well, but it's hard to tell. There's such a spectrum there right where it's like either I mean, I don't know. But again, if it were the police who worked closely with him saying I don't know, it seemed like he was really unaffected by it, it would seem like they would know what unaffected by it would mean the police were really after this guy too. So that's that's going to color. Some people's recollections often change in retro often quite often. Yeah, that's that's fair. And

again it's hard to say. I mean, people act differently understanding situations like this, So hard to say if that means much of anything, but that was definitely counted as kind of a reason to be a little suspicious of them. But anyway, there in the in the end, there was really no evidence of murders, so it was declared a suicide and the whole thing was dropped. But of course, uh,

you know, the in laws didn't forget it. Of course, yeah, and so and so the father in law did call the police, and that's one of course, he got on their radar and they did a little research and it ever turned out they found that he likes apparently violent pornography, which I'm not so sure what that means. That could be in somebody that means, yeah, that's a whole range. This is pre internet, remember, so it's not as if you they can check your browsing history you you buy it.

In that day and age, it would be a tape, yea. So he might have had two pornos and one of them was pretty rough and tumble, right. But and then that's where I would say, like in an internet age, right, like we all do that like click through, click through, click through, right where you just like find yourselves in this like in the spiral. Oh my God, look at that. That was awful what it's going on. But in this day and age like that was, you would have to

seek that out. Well maybe, like I mean probably listen. I have seen plenty of porno VHS tapes, and they don't always give away that they are all about bondage and beatings. They may look like the run of the mill, naked people going at it, and then you get home and you're like, oh god, I paid forty dollars for this, and they don't let you return the day. I'm so glad that you've just admitted spending board of dollars on

I just stole him. I don't know what they cost. Yeah, OK, So anyway, the you know, I know, they maybe found some porn in his possessions when they searched his place, or maybe they just talked to associates and found this stuff out. I don't know, and it might be too, I don't know if they did find some porn tapes in his house. Did they find one or two? Did they find so? But he also didn't He also liked to engage with prostitutes. He did, he did, he was that he he actually when he was when he spoke

to police. They asked him if he knew, if you knew the problem, if you knet Catherine or any of the other prostitutes, and he said he'd only done it once and that was after he had an argument with his wife and things were kind of bad, So he'd gone to a prostitute once. But when they showed us, they showed his picture along with some other suspected perps, to the prostitutes in the area down there, and a bunch of them, like four dozen picked his picture out.

So apparently it turns out he was kind of a regular down there. Yea, why to them? But those women really knew who he was apparently did. Yeah, well, and that makes it that really does point the finger at him. All these people are saying, oh, yeah, I know he's down here all the time. Well, it doesn't point the finger, but sort of a finger. Yeah, And it puts him in proximity to how do you say her name? Yeah, it puts him in in the area where she was

known to hang out. And obviously police don't like being lied to. They're very twitchy about that, kind of which is weird. Yeah, they don't seem to feel that they have to tell me the truth. I call the FBI and asked him for information. They won't tell me squat. Yeah, and I don't know. The FBI agent that's a signed to watch me through my camera has done like pretty sad lately. But you know, they have to keep cycling a new what's for me? Because they either get committed

or they commit suicide. Yeah, because they're bored out of her mind. Oh my god. All this guy does is talked to his freaking cat. Oh anyway, that's the the FBI equivalent of Siberia is having to listen to me. But he was arrested when they found all this stuff about him. He was arrested in December. His house was searched. They did find a knife. Oh my god, I knife. What the hell? What was he doing with a knife? No? Yeah, and no respectable human with a knife. No. I wouldn't

know a knife, no, nor would I have one. But it's designated only to cut up produce tiny little pairing knife, isn't it. There's just not a giant knife. It's just a weapon of murder. In my in my opinion, in my opinion, there's nothing you can do with a knife that you cannot do with a gun. So, I mean, why would you have a knife? Really? Yeah, why I was gonna say, this is why we don't eat it. There maybe some bullet fragments in there. Sorry, I gotta go, Yeah,

I gotta go. Prepare of the state. Yeah, okay, it's tenderized, all right, let's go. But there really actually was not any evidence, so, you know, even the knife, the incriminatory knife, there was no evidence. They had to let him go. And maybe he did it, maybe not. So again, let's summarize the arguments for his guilt. He'd probably come into contact with Katherine at some point, you know, since he had hung out down there. He might because they were

in the same neighborhoods looking to exchange the same things. Yeah, and so he may well have had done business. What's there? Even as a pathologist, he would have the tools and to know how to chop her body up. Yeah. He was an expert on strangulation, which might have been the cause of death, although we don't really know that. I mean, but I mean it could have been blunt force trauma or a gunshot to the head. But and you know, I don't know. Again, if he's the expert, the world's

leading expert on strangulation. Does that mean you have to strangle your murder victims or would you consider it? Why you just shoot him in the head? Yeah, how that would that work? No? I mean, knowing how to do something and wanting to do something are two very different things. It's just like saying that he knows how to knows all about something doesn't mean that he's also the one that turns around them and slices them up into itsy bitsy pieces. Yeah. Like, I know, I know people who

are butchers for example. You know that doesn't mean they're murderers. And I was going to say that, um, I went to school for costumes. Sorry. My freshman year, we were doing a play that required the distressing of a butcher's apron, and my costume resign pressor for whatever reason, was like, hey, can you distress us? And I was like sure. She's like, I want some bloods better on there, and I was like okay, and like did something. She was like, how

do you know what jugular splatter looks like? Though? And I was like I don't. I was just putting bloods. Sorry, I'm never going to ask you to do that ever, again, said I had no idea. I just started cutting on the home stude. This is what came out, you know, Yeah, why she's not in that industry anymore. Yeah, well next time, you know what to say, right, Yeah. But and there

was one other thing is that they talked. Of course, they're going to always talk to everybody, you know, colleagues, acquaintances, friends. A lot of people apparently, including some of the women down the red light districts, said they didn't like him. I thought he was kind of scary and creepy. But then again, you know, you know, I feel like you can't discount that gut feeling that people have about people, you know, but you also can't rely. You can't when

you're being pushed on by the police to scumberg. Yeah, but I think I think it's like it's that weird, like you can use that to fuel who you might investigate. Everybody been influencing, Yeah, I mean, I think if everybody who you're interviewing says, no, he seemed really creepy and weird, you might go with that suspect more. It would make sense, it would say, would it would probably influence your investigation just a little bit of all these people are have

a bad feeling about this guy. The problem with he harm is he he's what I would consider a victim of what somebody wrote to us today in our timeline, not when this podcast released. Timeline um is the phenomenon of locking in and locking out, locking in on your subject and therefore locking out all other information that might prove that that's wrong. All they care about is whatever a little factoid fits their theory, right, Oh, this beautiful?

That No, that doesn't matter. This yes, this, yes, No, that's the rest of that is all garbage. Get it out of here. I know, I mean because that's and definitely I tend to do the same thing, and like even on our podcast, I tend to pay more focused attention on the things that confirmed the theory that I have. Yeah. Yeah, and if I get of course, if I get enough information, then well I will change up my theory. I'm not

that bad. I hope that, you know. Definitely, you know things that come to my engine that makes me right. I recently come an infographic that I'll show I'll share with you guys later, but it was all of these different kind of biases that we have that are underlying yeah, And it was really interesting to kind of think about, like, apparently people also give bias to like if the information is more recent, they give more weight to it, which

is crazy, but that's true apparently, you know. And then also you look for the information that will confirm what you believe. It's confirmation bias. And yeah, there's certainly areas where the most recent information is the best, like say market economics or real estate, you know, but science. Yeah, according that, we're talking about our vampire doctor doctor. Yeah, let's see what else do you got beside him being creepy? What else? Of course, the body parts were found close

to where he worked. Every good idiot knows, dump the body parts by your job, yea, just on your way to work. Just check him out the car with that. That's what I do with apple cores all the time him. Yeah, so we got so that's all the time. Yeah. But the weekly World Wound News, so you've probably heard of them. They're they're a pretty respectable tabloid, and they in April they probablyshed an article about him, and they came up with some extra information. They called him the mad vampire doc.

And you guys have seen the article, Yeah, said that he had committed at least six other quote vampire slayings unquote besides cataline um, and they were definitely vampire. He had secrets. According to them, he had a secret statue of twenty human brains in his freezer at home. So I appreciate that you were including this for the comic relief of Oh my god, the Weekly World News. But

this is this is just such slander as garden. Oh yeah, yes, yes, but I thought I just tossed in so you get a sort of a flavor for how nuts this case can. It is a great example of how far this thing went off. I read uh comments from some certain Sweedish citizens who said they considered this case to been a national embarrassment for the way the police handled the trial and everything, and then the way they built their case. His teeth and somebody else We're going to find out

about here in a moment. Let's go there. Yeah, here's what But here's what the Weekly World News said about this. He uh about Catherine, and they said he lured her back home or to his morgue and then decapitated her with the power saw and then invited a friend over to quote join him in a banquet of human flesh and blood unquote, and then they retired to their separate confidence.

Yeah apparently, uh, and then they did. About a year later, they published another article saying that one of the TETs victims had risen from the dead was on the brink of becoming a vampire like him because she was a zombie, but she was an upgrade to vampire status had enough hit points. Yeah, and so so anyway, so he's a vampire. Okay, we got that, all right, So well, let's let's go on to our next theory. Next purp or purpose this this purpose, this is uh teeth harm and Thomas og

this is like they Yeah, so nobody's saying that. Nobody seems to be saying that Algan committed the murders by himself. But some people have said, like for example, the World News weekly World News thinks that he was sort of an evil sidekick to Yeah, that kind of side were doing it. So they knew each other. They had worked together.

They were both doctors, was a general practitioner, and they worked together for about a year and a half and a hospital in Stockholm, and so they knew each other that. I don't think they were besties, but they had known each other from work and stuff. I think they might have been blood blood brothers. Okay, alright, come on, come on, let's get so. If you remember that that article I mentioned a few minutes ago, Thomas Thomas Algan is the friend who was invited over to feast on even on

human flesh, and he was the dude. Yeah, and it's funny. In the article he managed to this spell not just his first name, was his last name. Also. They misspelled it they both names. Well, that's a way to avoid getting a charge of slander. What it wasn't you we were talking. I'm kind of surprised they didn't get charged. I bet you they did. Their lawyers said, don't spell that guy's name correctly, so people will correct it in their minds, but we cannot directly be accused of doing that.

How the Weekly World News isn't constantly getting slander suits. I have no idea boy at this point should own that place magic maam, Yeah, that's anyway. Sorry, that's okay, that's a that's a question for So why does Thomas A well he was when it was arrested. In eighty four, the papers published that a young doctor had been a rested as a suspect Thomas Elegan was separated from his wife, Christina at the time, and they had a young daughter who was about two years old, who was unnamed in

the press, So we will call her. What do you think Jane? Yeah, Jane Doe, Sally, Jane Doe. Sally, Jane Doe. You like Jane do color Jane Doe? So they were there, was said, separated, says, you know, these things often can turn a little bit ugly with separations, and especially when Yeah, so she had been claiming that Thomas had molested Jane Doe, the daughter, and he had been investigated for this. And

I'm sorry. How old was the daughter again? She was I think at the time that the actual allegations were made, she was about a year and a half old. And then by seventeen seventeen months, yeah, seventeen eighteen muchs And I think by the time that was arrested in Christmas or exe me in December four, she would have been about two, about two. But yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sure you said that before. I just yeah, to clarify used of molesting his two year old daughter. Yeah, he was,

and they found no evidence of it. Yeah, but it's investigated, they decided there was no evidence, They decided that charges were unfounded, and then they they there was just another ugly divorce. Yea. They decided to take no further action. Um. But then after got arrested Christina Hears. That's that a young doctor had been arrested in this incredibly notorious murder. She called the police and just and just said, hey, did you did you arrest Teete Harms? He the guy?

The police apparently confirmed it. Well, that's a that's a good They're just really bad A thousand here there's okay, yeah, because I don't know, I mean, like a little bit. I feel like if somebody called and like if I called it an investigation and she has as a public citizen, she has no there's no reason to disclose that to her until such, I mean, she's proven to be involved. But like if I called and I was like, hey, did you're a Steve in this? They would probably why

are you asking? What is your involvement? What's your relationship? Like there would be a whole bunch of stuff and you'd have to prove good reason. But maybe maybe she said, well I know his accomplice, and they said then yes, yeah, maybe maybe that's what it was, because and I said, hey, did you arrested for this? And they were like, why do you know? And I was like, well, because I know Joe the accomplice. They were like, then, yeah, we did well. Since we've left Logictown, I'm going to take

a nap, let me know. And we we get back into the room about a page and half away. Whatever the circumstances of this whole thing where the police essentially confirmed it to her, and we don't know, like I said, Devin might she might have called in and said I've got information you might need. You got it? We don't know.

So she fingers the the X as being involved. Yeah, And and it turns out she and she had met teat a few years before when Thomas brought him home for dinner, and apparently she taken an instant dislike to him, and so she was not because if he could bathe in the meat loaf, probably yeah, yeah, just maybe he spent the whole dinner just talking about strangulation or something. I'm not saying that he necessarily had a winning personality,

but probably not. If this many people didn't like him. Yeah, And I don't think it was right in December anyfore, but not too long after that, Christina went to the police and said that her daughter, Jane Doe, it was eighteen months old at the time of the murder, was saying stuff that indicated to her that she was present when Cataline's body had been cut up, and by this part of the story is this thing just keeps going further and further off the rails for me, Like just yeah,

I mean this is not this this this investigation did not really go well. Yeah, and it's hard for me with like two year old they say, I mean, like the kid sings Mommy and daddy say all, it's not necessarily that. It's just like there's a lot of and we haven't done shows on this per se because I know you have a good reason feel about this situation.

But like there's a lot of stuff that kids say that like would lead one to believe that like reincarnation is real, right, because sometimes like kids are talking like at length and in like incredible detail about stuff that they should have no understanding of whatsoever. But that doesn't mean that they have actually right, that doesn't mean they've actually experienced that in their current life. Kids have a lot of active imaginations or maybe it is this weird whatever.

I mean, we at some point could probably talk for at least three hours about what that sort of thing means. But I'm not willing to ever say that like what a two year old is saying accurately reflects what they've experienced in life. No, probably not, you know, probably not. But you can't use that as testimony in proof. Well, yeah, I mean that's the kind of the way I would look at it too. But apparently apparently the police kind

of bought it. Yeah, apparently they. By the way, according to Jane Doe, the child Teete harm was also present. It wasn't, so it's not just Thomas, Thomas and Tete who were chopping up the body. So the double t s we're cutting her up. Yeah, and the little girl was the later girl was there? Yeah? Yeah, And I'm not sure what to make of it except I think this is probably the at least divorce of all time. Yeah, I think, probably not the ugliest, but it's one of

them that's out there. Yeah. Or maybe Christina sincerely believed that she was accurately reporting everything that her daughter was saying, but again, because of her age, I I really have a hard time believing. And I really feel like she was saying things that probably let her daughter to repeat things. That's problem with with kids, and this kind of thing is hard to tell, especially at two planted or it's maybe not but a lot of times. But I mean,

like even adults can be misled. You know, you can say to an adult like, well, didn't you see that person with a white hat? And we talked again, like a great, yeah, this is a great example again, like what we were talking about in the last episode when Amy, it was like, you know, you're going around, you're saying, did you see this girl? You know she might have been with bikers. She was a vegetarian, and people like, oh, yeah, I remember she did vegetarians. Yeah, and she was with

two bikers. That's weird, right, I mean, you can human memory such a weird thing, especially at two years old. I definitely miss remember stuff. But anyway, but we've got a two year old girl. How do they proved that or how do they decide that what this kid is saying? Well, they enlisted a child psychologist and a child psychiatrist to examine her and listen to her testimony and stuff, and they apparently decided their professional opinion was her her evidence

was credible. How they had arrived at that conclusion, I don't really know that, but I send up. I mean, you know, but you know that's you guys don't but I'm standing out of the rest of that. That's not enough of not enough epence. Well, then there's something like photo. There was another thing that happened, But this didn't happen until fall eighty seven, when this couple came forward. This is wait, wait, wait eight seven. The murder happens in

four three years after, yeah, three years after. I just want to make sure I got that timeline right. Yeah, And they on this photoshop that was I think it's somewhere near the Caroline Ska Institute. And they came forward and told the police that they had developed a roll of film and printed photographs and the role had turned out to have images of a chopped up human body. Which is when did they say they developed that film? That would have been around like summer, so about the time. Yeah,

I'm right about that time. They said that they they and their employees were appalled and disgusted, but they did it anyway, But they didn't report to the police. Why Yeah, that's that's that's my first is if you were if you were to, especially when you're in the days of analog film process and god, we're doing this again. It's a it's a thing that it was a known fact that if you saw, oh wait, you're making porn, we

have to report you. Oh look, you have what appears to be a dead human being, we have to report you. You just don't go. So that was really gross, and don't do that again like that. That's not the way that works. Yeah, I don't. I don't know what exactly exactly why they just sort of let this thing sliding

intil the cops. Apparently what happens that two young men brought the role of film in for development and told them that there's there's gonna be some unsettling stuff on these pictures, but this is part of a top secret investigation, you know, So please don't tell anybody, and please just you know, don't look at the pictures or anything like that. Then there's no need to call the police, you know.

And and so from an air point of view, if it would have been top secret, if they had actually killed somebody and shopped at the Audie, right, that's that'd be a big secret I'd want to keep. Of course, I wouldn't take the film to be developed either. No, I learned how to develop my own film. I feel like, Yeah, police labs usually have people who are capable of that. That's crazy. That's the yeah of the thing is what

top Yeah exactly. Yeah, you would think that they would have their own lab if they were it was actually a police investige. I'm not a fan of any of them. You go down to the police like, hey, Hans, um, so this is film we shot from this scene. Can you develop it for us? Big deal? Hans doesn't give a crap because he's he's that stuff all the time. Yeah, yeah, for sure, if you don't go to the public photo market. Also, Hans knows you work for the police exactly, that you

worked there. Uh. Yeah. And the only thing I think is, uh, you know, maybe you're decided that your department is full of corrupt cops and and so you gotta go like off the grid to get this stuff taken care of. That. That makes no sense because we've never heard from these guys exactly any stories about like where they had why they had to go out side normal channels to get this film developed, they never said anything about that, so, uh,

we can just count that. So of course naturally they wanted to know who these human were, at least did, and so they they put They put I think Thomas Oligan and I don't know if they put Teet harm in the same line up at the same time or different lineups or what. But apparently they picked Thomas Oligan out of the police lineup as one of the two young men who had brought the film in. And apparently they also picked out Teet although they weren't quite as

sure about him. Yeah, had there been news coverage of these cars, sure, I'm sure there have been plenty so that things that, but apparently this was this would say, you know, so they got this is what they've got for their case. They've got a little kid who was eighteen months old who you know, and and and then they've got these people. Let's say they brought in this role of film and so five years later, that's about the gist of their case here. But they were arrested

October eighties seven, nighties seven. They were convicted, vert was thrown out because of jury misconduct and because it was this media circus and they were all there. They were, Yeah, they were talking to the press when they shouldn't have been, and so that was that was there was essentially kind of a mistrial. I don't know if they call it a mistrial in Sweden or not, but there was a

big outcry about the mistrial. So there was a second trial and then they were acquitted, which seems about right to me, because you have it's against them even if

they were the killers. I'm sorry, I can't. I can't support sending anybody into prison on that on that basis that I mean, it's it's tough, right because like what we know about both of them is that, like both of them have been accused of being kind of like horrible humans in their personal life and also or possibly right but I said, the accused of being like kind of horrible people in their personal life, and like also maybe had these pictures. Yeah, but that's it, that's about it.

But it's tough because I feel like both right, I don't know what I would do and think about about having pictures like that. Like I have a friend who's a really good guy who did a tour in Iraq a while back. Yeah, we talked about this before he showed me a bunch of pictures that he brought back from there, and some of them are frankly, very disturbing. Yeah, last week as hell, you know. And he's a nice guy, but he has these pictures and it's not because he's

some sort of weird disaster porn freak. I think he just wants to document his time over there. And I think that feels different though, well, I think you'd probably get used to that kind of stuff too, you see enough of it. And so for these guys and having a you know, all sorts of weird crime scene pictures is not that weird at all for them. So wait, wait, wait, speaking of crime scene pictures, was a teat that was known to send stuff unsolicited to people, Yeah, he did.

He was supposedly sent sent like postmortem reports with photos and everything unsolicited to people, to people he knew. Well, and I'm not sure you know what kind of people.

I mean if you send him like to say, you're people he knew friends or whatever, but I and I'm not sure what the context was because like, for example, if it's a fellow mortician or doctor or not excuse me, not more titian, but a fellow forensic police person or something, and you just send him something like, Wow, this is this, this is really interesting, checkout page seven or something like that.

I don't know, or it could mean he was sort of sending it in laws or yeah, I don't know, or it could mean to him it was kind of the equivalent of porn. I don't know. It might have just been showing stuff a professional and interest to other people. I really don't know. Again, the case against these guys is just not great. Especially the one thing I didn't mention was just the whole idea, well, you sort of

touched on it. You're gonna have your eighteen year old kid in front of old kid, excuse me, when you're carving up a corpse and chopping the head off. I find that hard to believe. They don't sit still. Yeah, they don't sit still. They're going to be running around while you're trying to do stuff. Yeah yeah, yeah, so I know. But so again, even though the case against him was not that great, that doesn't necessarily mean they're innocent. I think most likely they didn't do it. There was

probably probably some of this was grudges. I mean, the in law has definitely had a grudge against them obviously. Obviously the ex wife who alleged childhood and all this had a grudge against against her husband, Thoma Tom Thomas Ogan. And so it's hard to believe that the police gave that much weight incredibility to these people. Um, and so I got I got to rule these two kind of

out of suspects. Um. Everything just feels so circumstantial and mismanaged against them that I can't with a good clear conscious say, oh, yeah, I still think they did it. It's tough though, again, right because it's like I do feel like they're like not good humans. Being a dirt bag doesn't mean that you're a murdering killer who dices people up in your spiritime. So are there other theories here? Well,

that's a few. That's you know. Another theory would be, well, it's just somebody else entirely that we just haven't heard of. And we've got these these suspects that we've named three of them so far, But it could have been another serial killer. The and and that's that's kind of just punting, I know, but you know, really obviously it could be. We don't know, We never will know. We don't have any other theories of people who were firm. No, not at all. No, that's just just the river draft the

ripper kind of guy. Um. But of course the statute of limitations ran out in that. I think the original statute of years ago for us. Yeah, yeah, it was twenty five years for murder in Sweden spent. Apparently they've changed that now it's it doesn't There is no statute of limitation, which I feel like makes sense, right, Like, there are certain crimes where I'm like, you know what, that should never run out if we could prove that

an expiration data. Yeah, there should never be really, yeah, certain crimes probably maybe like you steal a candy bar when you're eight, like fine, maybe you like murder somebody in up to their body. Maybe you never get to get away from it. Are saying I'm off the hook forrillo candy bars. I still as a kid, I'm not. Your body still has to deal with that, not to mention your conscience, but yeah, it I was just like, I don't have to duck the law anymore. Yeah, sorry,

but yeah, glad you admitted it. Well, I'm just gonna keep not finding my taxes will never find me a lot, dude, Yeah, I mindly, minly quibble about trying a case that's older than twenty five years is that memories are there, and say, if they want to accuse me, how am I going to come up with an alibi? Where would they go? Where am I going to find anywhere? Are they going to find any reliable witnesses? So that in theory, Well,

but I guess like something that old is so hard. Sure, but the way that trial seemed to go, especially of like murder or something of that kind of seriousness go these days, juries seem to require, at least in the last ten or so years, scientific evidence, right, So they seem to require DNA, they seem to require kind of

forensic evidence of some kind. So I I mean, granted they are fallible, but I would suspect that no reasonable prosecutor would bring a case against somebody, especially when a serious as this without some kind of really solid forensic evidence. And that seems to not be as sure. I mean, like there are some fallibility. There is certainly not just fallibility,

there is outright prosecutorial abuse. Absolutely. Yeah. We talked about like not typically and we talked about you know, like bite mark forensic that's not real right, there's a lot of friends evidence that's not that's actively being proven thought that we used to considerately infallible or at least highly reliable, like hair analogy inallible. Yeah, yes, totally has totally been shown to be well, not quite so privilege as we

thought it was. Totally. But I feel like if somebody, but I do feel like if somebody were like listen, within like you know what thousands like a thousand to one this person DNA was found on this body that was chopped up, you might want to at least to launch an investigation without saying right, but I mean without saying like, you know, listen, it was years ago, so we were only care anymore, like maybe just yeah, no, sometimes you want to get an answer. I totally understand that.

And that's since we are in the business of solving and solve mysteries. Obviously, you know I'm pro solving that mystery. Yeah, totally. Yeah, But like I said, sometimes it's a little unfair when that not much time has gone. I can be there can there can be an element uncircumstance evidence alone. Absolutely, ah yeah. But anyway to wrap up our case here,

the apparently in I think we mentioned this earlier. The Prosecutor General did apply for a search warrant to obtain those tissue samples that have been collected, and they were being held at yeah, for stand and they were being held at the Caroline SKA Hospital. Uh. And so they apparently they wanted to see there there was the original bag. There was like a blue towel next to the bag, and then had some hair airs on it which were

saved by the police. And all they want to do was, I guess, compared DNA and the tissue samples from stand to the DNA and those hairs and see if they could actually establish a connection. Not that it would be proof, but it'd be well, you know, it might be enough to actually resolve the case to everybody's satisfaction. Uh. And as we mentioned, nothing I ever have I have not heard anything about how they're testing went. And maybe it's

still in the queue. Yeah, maybe you know. And so it's you know, I want to I want to give everybody the benefit of the doubt and believe the best of everyone. That's nice of you. Yeah, I don't know, no, but I'll accept you to. But but I'm not the first person who mentioned this. Uh, considering their conduct in the case, considering the two lives were destroyed. If it turned out that stands DNA max those hairs found there after everything they did to Teethe Harm and Thomas Oligan,

then oh my god. They I could see where there might be a little embarrassment. Well, here's the worst part is that that Ten Thomas both sued the state and they were told no, you you can't do this at freaking bad. They had their medical licenses taken away. They have gainful employment that they are you know, highly trained for, they cannot practice. They cannot yet in Sweden at least. Yeah, probably anyway, Yeah, kind of a feeling. They probably would have a hard time. I think most place. I think

the stink has followed them everywhere. I have no idea how what those guys do for a living or how they survive. But selling their story to tabloids, Yeah maybe, but and so it might be kind of tough. Yes, it might be. You could even see it from like not wanting to pay up millions of dollars for prosecution or anything like that, they might just sort of sit on the results. If it turned out the results, you know, actually exonerated these two and so maybe that's what happened.

I think for me, Stan is the obvious best suspect you and you know, I wouldn't send I don't think there's enough evidence that even send him away unless the d n A test did come back positive. Yeah, and even then it's kind of like you have to then be able to actually link that towel to the crime,

you know, because right next to the bag. Well, like, even then though, I mean, I would say, you know, the chances of somebody just having the really really serious unfortunate luck unless haircut next to the bag of body unbeknown to him, I would say that's that's enough for me.

Probably it would be enough to shut well. And he died, So I guess maybe, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know, find in the case, of course, these statute of limitation is expired, so nobody can be he can't be prosecuted for it, even if they can match his DNA him. But at least, you know, at least for these these other people that have been accused, at least they would get some resolution, you would think. But I think you know again that that whole trial by

public opinion is rough to ever overcome it said. That's one of the reasons too, why it's it's important for the police when they're investigating somebody to kind of, you know, keep a lid on the whole thing. Yeah, so you don't destroy people's lives, you know. But anyway, that's enough of editorializing for me. That is our story. Katina by the Mad Vampire by the Mad Vampire Doc. Yes, yes, exactly. You're probably gonna be wanting to, Oh, did you guys

have any more therorizing before? I know, I'm not going to steer into weekly world news garbage zones. Well we will, I know. I know that all of our listeners are gonna want to read that article, so we will post a link to it on our website along with really can't they just go to murder Pedia and see the crap fest that is this story? Oh yeah, they put a lot of crapfest that the murder Pedia has got some bad, some really ludicrous stuff on there. They bought

was seriously drunk that day. Yeah, murder Media took a little credibility head for me, at least when I read their page on these guys on this murder and I used to think there were somewhat reliable, not perfect, but you know someone I don't think so anyway, So so yeah, the but but we'll have links on our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where you can download the episodes, you can buy merch yes, T shirts and mugs and all sorts of good stuff, and read some

of our research that we will we will link to. Also, of course you're you're probably gonna want to send us an email about this, of course you will. So. Our email address is thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Oh and what else? We're on Facebook and other social media outlets, or on Facebook where we have a page and a group, so like the page, joined the group and answer the questions. They're easy. There's like two of them, right yeah yeah uh, and a lot of activity going on. There.

Were also on Twitter where we are Thinking Sideways. Lots of great stuff there, including pictures of my cats. Yeah yeah. And what else? Photo Instagram. It's not photo Instagram. We are on Instagram now where we are Thinking Sideways Podcast. Don't go to the Thinking Sideways only guys because they are up to no good. Who knows what they're doing? Yeah, they follow it from our page. It's way easy, very

very good. Also we have a subreddit, thinking sideways whether there's any good activity out there, by the way lately always it's so far in the future. Why do you ask this question? She's not really a time traveler even that we accuse E thinks I'm the doctor. Yeah, okay, so there's stuff going on there. What else I'm agine you can find our episodes on our website. There's other places you'd find them to believe it or not. We're on iTunes where you can also besides finding the episodes,

you can subscribe. You can also leave a review, leave a rating. We like high ratings like that would be a five. That's our preference. Uh. And also you can find us on streaming services like Stitcher and some of the other ones. Take a name, but I'll just leave it at Stitcher. All right. Well, that's it for this week. So until next week, Chaw heads off to you.