Thinking Sideways: The Murder of Bob Chappell

that the show continues to have great advertisers. If you're interested in advertising with our show, go to mid Role dot com, slash sideways and click contact to let the folks at mid Role know. They also represent great shows like Generation Why and My Favorite Murders so you can reach an array of engaged listeners. That's mid Role, M I, D R O l L dot com slash sideways. You know how to spell sideways? Who are well? Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host, Joe,

joined as always by Steve and your other host Devin. Yeah, Joe is not the only host. Yeah, he's the host this week I oh sorry. Yeah, okay, well I guess you know what's really going on in the back of my head. Uh, he's been reading about this story too long. Yeah, okay, well here we go. Yeah, I totally want to see the podcast all for me. Yeah. This week we're gonna talk about a fun disappearance that a lot of people think was a murder. And that's a guy in Australian

named Bob Chappell. His name is spelled Chappelle, but it's pronounced Chapel. Apparently. He disappeared January nine in West Hobart, Australia, which is in tess India, which, if you don't know, is an island off the south coast of the Australian mainland.

It's part of Australia. And uh. The story was suggested by our listeners Lucil and Renee, who no doubt or Tasmanian themselves, because the story, as it turns out, as a really big deal in Tasmania and actually Australia in general, even though a lot of Americans maybe have not heard of it. But it's big down there, is it is ongoing. Yeah, now you're gonna know all about this story. America Europe, Pakistan,

you name it. So Bob Chapel when he went missing in two thousand nine, Bob was living with a woman named Sue Neil Fraser, who was now in prison for murder. Uh. And Bob and Sue had been together about eighteen years when Bob disappeared, and according to some people, will the the fun had gone out of the relationship. Yeah, it

does tend to happen to a lot of relationships. It does happen, yes, So, but that of course made her kind of a candidate is a suspect for murder, you know, typically know, it's not unusual, right uh like, But like said, a ton of people in Tasmania thinks she's innocent and that her conviction for Bob's murder was a huge miscarriage of justice. And there's a big campaign going on to find information to exonerate Sue. The kinds of court appeals one of what's just happened as a matter of fact.

Uh yeah, And you probably if you go out look, you'll find you'll see that billboard that's got that picture of Sue and it says reward forty dollars for information. Yeah, now proving the innocence of Souon Neil Neil Fraser and uh, yeah, anyway, we'll talk about how the whole appeal thing played out here, but let me give you a little more background for so, this kind of kind of violates our five year old

but well over five years. But you know, I picked the story, and I and everything, and then I and then after I go out to do my research, I suddenly realized, Oh, all this new stuff happening, And whenever you do a search, all these new links pop up. Yeah, and technically he's over the limit, but luckily no, nothing conclusive came about, which is why we're still talking about Yeah. Uh,

and so who knows. I mean, maybe she's still in prison now, but who knows, maybe spring in one of these days, or she'll finish your sentences and just get out of prison. With our luck, like two days before we drop this conclusively, somebody will confess. Uh. Well, anyway, back to the back to the beginning here, Bob and Sue were both divorced with kids. I think he had three, she had too, and I think the kids were grown

by the time this happened. And I believe Bob and Sue had been a thank for about eighteen years when Bob finally shuffled off the stage. And I'm putting it that way because actually nobody really knows what happened to Bob. Now you just vanished. Everybody assumes he's dead, which includes the police, the courts, his family, friends. Yeah, but maybe not. But nobody was ever found. Um, so there's actually not on a percent rocks actually that very big void in

evidence for what the heck happened to him. Well, yeah, interestingly enough, nobody was found. No murder weapon was found. Yeah, I know, And so it's interesting that police managed to get a conviction out of this out of this movie. Yeah, but in two thousand eight, that just months before this happened. Soon and Bob bought themselves a nice big boat, a fifty three ft catch called the Four Winds, which actually

I've seen photos of it, just really nice. What what's the catch catches A is like it's a two masted sailboat, but it's it's the tall mast is in front and the short mast is in the rear of the boat, the stern. That's a catch. And there's also the y'all just a similar able to y'all that the aftmatches stepped a little further back and it's smaller, so there's a difference. Yeah, okay. Unfortunately everybody in podcast Land couldn't see Joe's defining hand es.

He was also looking very concerned at me, like, I'm concerned. You don't understand this already? Do you not know what this is? I mean, you're about to buy a boat a right, And actually, okay, for the sailing purists out there, that the station between the catch and y'all is the y'all. The mast is stepped behind the steering station and the catch is stepped in front of the steering station. You're just showing off now, okay, alright, that's that's how you

tell the difference between the two. Okay. But they bought it in Queensland, which is on the northeast coast of Australia, quite a way from Tasmania, and they had ideas for the boat about retiring doing a lot of sailing. They were planning maybe a dream trip of sailing around Australia and about the last fate intervened they never took that trip.

When they were in Queensland after they bought the boat, they hired two crew members to help them sail to Hobart and their names were Peter Stevenson and David Cassan, And presumably that's because they were unfamiliar with the boat, and these guys they had some sailing experience. I know, Sue at least had owned a fairly decent sized sailboat previously, and I think, you know, and so presumably and that was while they were together, so presumably he picked up

a lot of experience sailing on that. And so I'm guessing it was kind of a you know better and this is a bit of a training run for us. Yeah, well probably, yeah. I don't know how big the previous but it was obviously a fifty foot catches is kind of bigger and harder to handle than a little twenty six foot sloop or something like that. And it's been a couple of years, you know. Or maybe maybe they just wanted a couple of extra hands so they could

actually catch some sleep. Also, pod it could be that would definitely make for some wider work. Yeah, But they hired these two guys, and then unfortunately Bob had us a few medical issues and wind up checking into the hospital for a little bit, and he decided to fly back to Hobart, while soon the crew sailed the boat back. And as for Hobart that it is on the southeast coast of Tasman, you know what, on what's called the

River Derwent. And I'm no doubt mispronouncing that. Probably maybe it's maybe that Australians called it the Darwin or something like that or the door Winner. I don't know. Uh, somebody send me an email. Yeah, exactly, UHO. And where Hobart is, it's on the River Derwood, but it's kind of more of a big inlet there. It's huge. It's wide near the sea where they had an anchor's off battery point in the Hobart in the river on the

west side of the river. And of course when they bought the boat and had a few issues, which is not a surprise boats usually do, and it was a used boat. Boats are holes in the water that you throw money in. Oh hell yeah, And it could have been one of the things that placed a little rain on their relationship. They do that. And I know, Steve, you're going to like a little project right now, let's place a little strain on your It is a little project,

but it just turned into a big project. The dots. Ye, just thrown the old one and start over, just sell it and buy something. Yeah. But the boat had had some work done before leaving Queensland and uh. And then of course after getting on homeboard, it needed some more work done. And of course in the last day that he was seeing Bob Chapel was on the four winds working on the boat, or at least that's what he

said to Sue. Well, and of course if it needed work, then it would make sense that you would just go and work on the boat. Yeah, if you got the time and you want to retire on it. Yeah, I don't take around about it. Yeah. And and besides which this is your dream boat. You want to get the thing all ship shape no pun intended, and have it all ready to go. And so you gotta get that

stuff taken care of. And so Bob was working away and on the morning of twenty six January, Sue visited Bob, and the yacht left late morning to go and have lunch with a friend. Turns out the friend was his daughter and sound chews. Yeah, Bob's daughter Caroline and Sanchez. I think she goes away an uh and sorry, Sue was going to have lunch with her. Yeah, Sue what to have lunch with her, and they met at the Royal Yacht Club, which is actually right where it was anchored. Anyway,

it was anchored off shore. I assume they didn't have a slip at the Royal Yacht Club, even though I think they were members and their privileges. But it looks like it's all full. If you look at the arials, it's all full, and there's literally dozens of yachts anchored offshore from it. So I assume there's a waiting list to get into the Royal Yacht Club. That's why they had their boat moored out way out in the river, yeah,

instead of you know, I'm a slip. Yeah. During but during this lunch, and Sanchez took a photo which was later used as evidence against Sue. We'll hear about that later. But then later on about mid afternoon, she returned to the boat, uh and she told police that she had an argument with Bob, and Bob told her he wanted to stay on the yacht overnight, so she took the dinghy and their dinghy, by the way, it was an inflatable craft kind of like his Zodiac, big rubber boat.

Big rubber boat. It's kind of the pontoons. Just got the flat transome in the back of the headache and had an outboard on it. So she takes the dinghy back to shore, which left Bob stranded on the odd Over nine. And this was the last time that Sue

saw Bob at least potentially, Yeah, potentially maybe uh. And she was questioned later and told police about leaving him stranded on the yacht, and she said she thought it was safe to ly Bob on the yacht without the dinghy because she said he was not actually good at getting in and out of it on his own, and apparently she was worried he might screw up and fall

into the water and drown. I don't know, Well, was that because he was just kind of clumsy at it, or is it because of like a medical issue, because he'd had the medical issues that prevented him from, you know, coming from with the boat home. So yeah, I had never I had never heard it said exactly why it was she was concerned about his abilities for getting out, wondered, as I did all the reading and couldn't figure it out.

Presumably because they had been married eighteen years and she knew that rods are, that they had been together for eighteen years, and that she kind of thought, well, he's kind of an idiot, and I hate him, I know, I despised him. He was just incompetence. She's just so everything. But uh, and of course some people contradicted that. There were other people who said, no, we saw him get in and out of it all the time off the goat,

and he had no problem at all doing it. It was only when Sue was around drugging him that crazy. When got back to shore from her visit with Bob on the boat, she tied the dingy to a ladder at the Royal Yacht Club. She said she tied her usual away with three knots. I don't know what those three knots were, but she said that it had never come undone before, so of course it came un done naturally. Of course, of course, Yeah, yes, it comes undone overnight

or somebody untied it. Uh. The evidence indicates actually that somebody did untied because the painter that you know, sailors are they gonna call everything a different name. So that's like with seven hundred names for ice. Yeah, I know. In three thousand thirty seven for snow. Yes, But anyway, so the painter, which is a rope that's tied to the front of the boat, he tied to the dock with and it was found inside the dinghy and not trailing in the water as it would have benefited at

the nicam. And then so somebody undid those knots and tossed it in the boat and tossed the rope in the boat sometime overnight, someone who was bad at staging things, apparently at five forty am the next morning, that would be January, an unnamed person I'd never I'm sure if i'd gone through right three articles I could have found this guy's name. I don't know that it matters, not really. But somebody found the dinghy bobbing against the rocks untied.

He secured it and then headed out into the water and a boat with somebody else who also I don't have his name, and they happened to pass nearby the four Winds, and they noticed that it was very low in the water. Convenient. Can I ask a question, yea, this is probably stupid question, but do the dinghy's usually have the name of the ship that they're so the

boat they're associated with them. You know, it depends on how much money and how just how how you know, and how big the boat is and everything like that. So the dinghy is big enough, like you know, obviously, the bigger the yacht, the bigger the dinghy, you know, right, And that is one gets to a certain point. Wait are you talking about the owner or the thing that

floats to the water and wait, yeah, good point. But but yeah, typically, I mean the larger boats, a lot of them do have they're labeled one way or another. But this one was labeled. No. I've seen pictures of this one, and I had not seen typically, I don't think people paint the boat name on an inflatable raft anyway, well, you know, sharpie or something, just so you know who's Yeah, I'm sorry, I just I just think there's probably a lot of dinghies on you know. That's a good point.

You would expect everybody just know which one is there, you know, And but I might not have Sharpie on it. Yeah, yeah, but this one, I've seen a few pictures of it. I saw no signs of any any labeling whatsoever other than a brand name that was on the side of it. So they just happened to pass by the Four Winds. But yeah, they just these guys happened to pass by the Four Winds. They noticed it's really low in the water,

alarmingly low, so they stopped, climbed the board. Noticed there was still a little bit of blood and a few things like a you know, bloody knife, a few things like that laying around. So they called the police. Uh. The police phoned Sue at Bob and sus house at seven eleven am on January that told her they've gotten report that their boat was sinking. So Sue gets to the car and heads down to the Royal Yacht Club.

And when she shows up and and police showed up and boarded the Four Winds, they noticed, for some clue, blood on the steps leading down into the salon, a knife on the floor of the wheelhouse, a flashlight with blood on it. But no Bob Bob was gone. Of course, the boat was still low in the water and sinking because it turns out that a pipe to the forward head had been cut. It was a plastic pipe, so you know, you know, nautical toilet. Sorry, they don't don't

use good water to flush the toilet. They just in water from outside to flush the toilet. And that's really so somebody cut that pipe which let water into the boat. So it's an intake line that is now bleeding into the interior of the boat. Yeah. And also it turns out there was a sea cock that was underneath the floor ring in the forward part of the boat, I should say the bow. It had been opened also. And also sea cock is just a it's like a get

of the plug in your bathtub basically, it's that. Yeah. Sorry, we're just using a lot of body terms, and I feel like our listeners some of them no body terms, but very good point. Now seacock is there, and normally would seemed like kind of a dangerous thing to have, but when you haul the boat out of the water and you've got water in the villages, it's nice to be able to open something up in yeah, really heavy. Yeah, and pulling a boat out of the water full of

water will actually make it tear itself apart. It's not meant to sustain the water that it can be kind of hard on things. Yeah. Oh, and also, last of all, the builage pump had been shut up. Yeah, and so well, so the one means to pump the water back out has now been defaulted. Yeah, so somebody. So, somebody obviously had sabotaged the boat, right looks that way to me anyway. At some point the first time Sue was on the

boat with the police. I don't know if she was with them the first time they boardered it or maybe later in the day, but she knows some rub barks on the wooden surrounds of the main hatch of the yacht and that main hatches to the entrance to the lower deck. Yeah, yeah, and just exactly, that's the one that's kind of half door half hatch, you know, the kind of talking about when there's a little door on the front, then there's a hatch on top that slides

back so you don't bang your head. This is like what we're talking about in the Jim Gray episode. Yeah, exactly. Uh So she noticed some some rub barks on that which were kind of inconspicuous. She said, they had not been there before, and the police noticed there were also fibers in the marks that appeared to be from a rope.

And also they I don't know if they noticed this because there was an empty bracket or a suit pointed it out, but the most fire extinguisher was missing as well, and it was apparently a large, very large, heavy model fire extinguisher. It was gone. Okay, yeah, and so also checking for evidence around and stuff. The police looked at the dinghy. They checked it with loomin All. You know, lumin all, you spray that on it, and blood activates it, makes it glow under a black light, and of course

just has a lot of defenders. And suit pointed out other things besides blood can activate loomin all and make it glow. So but but apparently they sprayed some lumin All on the bottom of the dinghy, and well a lot of it glowed like a yeah kind of um so sorry, maybe I'm confused. The two guys unnamed find the dinghy, they get in the dinghy, No, it's it just said that the guy that found it secured it. And I don't know if that means he just tied it to something or that means he drug for some reason.

I thought they hopped in it. I think he just saw it secured it. And then they went out on his boat and then they board the four Winds and apparently don't disrupt the crime scene. Well, and that's another thing. That's as far as I know, they did board it. At least in one account I've heard they boarded it, and then one of those was actually a court accounts,

so probably accurate. But then in other accounts I've heard that they actually just looked and they yelled and nobody would nobody seemed to be home, and then they called police, maybe from a cell phone in their own in the boat. So maybe they didn't actually board it. Maybe they just

pulled alongside and uh called the police. Okay. And to go back to your statement about luminal, Yeah, the other things, what I mean, are they other things that might naturally be in a dinghy that would no, not necessarily yeah, that would light up a luminal but apparently yeah, I can't remember. I looked. I checked out the the Wikipedia page about it, and there's a lot of different substances.

I think that anything that has iron in it, for example, like blood has iron, So any anything that would have iron in it, you know, would would definitely kind of said, But not anything that would naturally just be all over the RV a tinny uh, unless they were like gutting fish in there at one point. Probably not now, I don't know how, I don't even think would do it. Yeah,

really stupid example. I just want to clarify those two things. Sorry. Good. Yeah, so it's something that appeared to be blood, but there's but you know, it should be stated for for sake of fairness, that it wasn't actually totally proven to be blood. Yeah, just presumed. Yeah, just presumed to be blood. And by the way, I still know Bob, he didn't even leave

it out. Long story short, though, the police looked into it, and after an eight month investigation, which included lots of forensic examination of the boat and Dinghy, lots of interrogations as Sue and and also bugging Sue's house for a while, and also interviewing everybody she knew, she was arrested, charged with murdering Bob Chappell, and after a trial, she was sentenced to twenty eight years in prison. But I think that was when she was sentenced with the possibility of

parole after eighteen years. It was reduced on appeal later to twenty three years thirteen possibility of parole. So it's with a lot of what people would call her rather circumstantial evidence. Yeah, it was a pretty circumstantial case. It really was. Again, no murder weapon, nobody, So did she murder Bob? Did somebody else murder Bob? Not? Everybody agrees on this. Uh uh, Like I said, nobody, no weapon.

Although the prosecution things that Sue Batch is heading with a wrench, nobody actually knows what the murder weapon was. So maybe they were dancing his head that kind of That's right, nobody, what're saying? Yeah, yeah, no real smoking gun. And when by that, I mean there was no one thing that really incriminated Sue. It was just a lot of little things that added up. But before I get into Sue's guilt of innocence, I'm sure you all want to know what happened to the boat? Did it? Say? Well, no,

did you find a new home? Yeah? Well I'm sure it has by now. Yeah, we bought it around the world tour. It was taken. It's gonna be a disaster. Oh god. Now would kill each other? I mean to be the question, you know, like who murdered Stephen Devon and I would say yeah I was, I was asleep, man, But the uh or maybe whom Hubert or Joe and you guys would be like, oh yeah, oh back to our thing though. It was towed to a nearby dock called Constitution Dock that's just kind of northwest of there,

uh and north of the club. Uh. And it was kept there for a few days and I think the leaks were stopped and everything. Um. January, it was taken to a place called Clean Lift Marine and hauled out of the river for inspection. Clean Lifting ries about maybe five miles north of there on the river, and on January the police were going over it, the forensics guys, and a swab was taken from the boat on the starboard deck about the midships which had DNA from an

unknown female. Yeah, didn't match anything in the police databay. But then about six weeks later, a fifteen year old homeless girl named Megan Voss had a run in with police. A sample liber DNA was taken and put in the database and presto, like that little bell in Jeopardy. Yeah yeah, yeah, uh so Megan Voss's DNA it was on the four winds. And this is this has been a big deal to this day people, or I mean she was I saw a picture. Ever, she was in court just a few

months ago about this whole issue. So it's still a big deal to a lot of people. Uh, we'll talk more about that in a bit. And they also found another piece of unidentified DNA on the boat and it has never been identified, which shouldn't come as a total surprise because according to the police, at least twenty one people had been on the boat between the time it was found sinking and when the DNA samples were taken three days later. And that's not County forensics personnel, by

the way. And of course people had I'm sure been on the boat before. You know, there were people that were guests or friends or whatever. Of course they were having it worked on by various people. And say, god knows who's DNA that could have been, or it could have been you know, maybe a murderer who knows it wasn't whose DNA it's. Yeah, So we got two pieces of d N A that in theory weren't supposed to be there. But Megan Voss denied that she had ever

been in the Four Winds. She was very consistent about it. She was asked if she had ever been to any of the places the boat was at, like Constitution dock or clean Line or Clean Lip Marine, and she said no. She said she had no idea whatsoever how it got there. And they asked her where she was the night of the murder, and she was not really sure about that either. But it turns out she was homeless, like I said,

and so moving from shelter to shelter the days. Yeah, and when she was finally question about this, of course, this was you know, weeks and at least a month and a half after the murders, maybe longer than that. So disappear, Yeah, I understand, Yeah better. Oh yeah, sorry, sorry disparience. Yeah. Um. One thing I will say is I I don't know that this is what's happening here, and I'm totally like shooting from the hip again. Um, as my disclaimer here, just remembering something that I had heard.

I feel like it was maybe on like a last week tonight or something like that, about a lot of forensic labs having a hard time, Um, when there are multiple people's DNA mixed actually isolating the correct DNA profile, it would be an amazing coincidence if it just happened that they had two DNAs mixed together that were that provided a positive for for Megan. But it's not heard of I mean people have been I think, I believe, if I'm remembering this correctly, people have been convicted on

what was presented as like hardcore DNA evidence. But you know, there were like five or six different blood it was yeah, and then it just happened that, you know, you could read certain markers as matching, and so the lab was like, yeah, matches, but it was really only two or three markers. I don't know. I mean, I don't think that's what happened here, but what it would be a hell of a coincidence, But it's happened before. I mean, people have been convicted. Yeah,

I believe. Again disclaimer, I believe that I heard that. I might have just dreamed it. I don't know. That's fine. Dreams are Dreams are fine, They're admissible on this podcast. But you but you bring up a good point to which is that DNA testing is not infallible. Even though DNA is is a really really good way to identify people. That assumes that everybody's doing their job right, everybody's being honest,

which is not always the case. Sometimes there's an incentive to not be forthright that you made a mistake, because that that tarnishes your reputation, which then screws everything up down. Yeah and yeah, and so there's all kinds of different ways that you can mess up your DNA tests. So so we shouldn't take this as total proof that Megan Boss was on the four winds um you know, and the prosecution says she was not. That they there at

least they believe she wasn't. They think it's most likely it was, So how would so so then how how how did your DNA get there? Well, the prosecution has said there they think the most likely probable theory is that a police have been tracked it onto the yachts somehow. It's transference, yea transference. There's been an argument against that

also of course. Yeah, well that the Victoria Police Department apparently came in and reviewed the case because of all the controversy, and uh then they liked at the DNA sample they've taken. They said, there's just I guess too much DNA or something like that. Porto just been a transference. It had to have been a direct application from somebody. Yeah, that's what they said. But again, you know, again, I think this whole DNA thing is just there's so many

ways it can get screwed up. Yeah, yeah, and saying, of course, Megan is Megan Voss has been very consistent all the way along, which is not really typical. If somebody who's actually got something to hi'dlight that. Usually when they're presented with that evidence, they're like, oh, yeah, well maybe I was down there because they actually gave her an out and I said, well, it was tied up at Constitution Dock right over there. We were over there

over there. She could have said, yeah, I remember I was over there, like being homeless one night, and I stumbled around and put my hands all over a lot of boats. She didn't do that, even though it was right near where she lives. She could have just said, yeah, I remember stumbled around over there. No doubt I touched it. She didn't do that, you know. So again, that doesn't prove that she's you know, absolutely innocent. Maybe she did murder.

She's also maybe she is responsible for Bob's disappearance. She's also she was fifteen at the time of murder. Yeah, yeah, saying that's true. We'll talk a little bit more about Megan a little bit here, but first let's look at the case against Sue Neil Fraser, who you know a I said, has a lot of supporters down to Tasmania. The prosecution's theory of the crime is this Bob and

Sue's relationship was reaching. It send from a financial standpoint, Sue would be much better off with Bob dead, in her winding up with whole ownership of all their common assets, you know, house boat, whatever, rather than having to split all that stuff up with Bob and maybe you know him even getting a hyd percent of stuff, like maybe the house. I don't even know he might have owned the house outright, I don't know. Yeah, we don't know

whose name was on what. Apparently apparently they did the math on it, and they feel that Sue was significantly better off with Bob dead. And they were not married. They were not married, They were just but having been together. It might have been a common law marriage if they've been together, but they weren't. There was no like, you know, if they get divorced, it's half and half, divide a bassets blah blah blah blah. No, no, no, no, not

at all. Yeah. So the prosecution series that on the night of January or actually the afternoon of January nine, Sue went out to the Four Winds and murdered Bob with a blond object down in the main cabin and returned to shore went home. Later that night, she had a phone conversation with a guy named Richard King, and which King demanded to speak to Bob, and she said

Bob was unreachable at the moment. And then after the call in it, which would have been about ten thirty five pm, Sue became worried that King might go down to the Four Winds himself and discovered the body. So she drove down to the waterfront, went out to the boat in the digging winch Bob's body out of the cabin. The boat had a had a winch on it, and so she used the winch to winch it out of the cabin, or at least to help her get the

body out of the cabin. Yeah. Yeah, it's a little a little helping hand there, and dead weight is not easy to move, No, it's but yeah, definitely, and so having that little extra would probably have done the trick for the In their theory is she tied the body to the large or put the body into the dingy, tied it to that large heavy fire extinguisher that I mentioned earlier to weigh it down, took it somewhere down the river to deeper water, because they searched the river

pretty carefully with the divers and everything, we're not able to find it, and dumped the body and then went back to the boat to clean it up and get rid of as much evidence as possible. So you pieces of carpet have been removed and stuff like this, and so you know, somebody did apparently did try to at least get rid of some of the evidence, although not all of it. Uh. And then she also attempted the

course to sink the boat. And according as is also part of their theory, only suit or Bob would have been familiar enough of the plumbing on that boat to be able to do what she did, unless unless somebody happened to what are what the old as that she did, unless whoever came aboard the boat and murdered Bob really

knew a lot about boats, which is possible. I mean, like Joe knows enough about boats, well, you know, but but even me, if I go to the forward head and and and you say to me, Joe, slash the intake line, I wouldn't know which one was the intake. Yeah, I really wasn't. Yeah, yeah, you have to actually know your own boat to know that stuff. Probably, And sorry, I don't think we talked about this. What what was the what? What? Sue and Bob? Were they big people?

Was she big? Was he? I mean were they comparable size to each other? They seemed to be reasonably similar in size. Yeah, he was not a huge guy and she was not a tiny, petit woman. I mean, you know, just is it even reasonable for her to have, you know, been able to even move his body at all? I think that you know what I mean. You know, on a sailboat you do have winches all over the place that for you know, that have to pull heavy stuff

like pull anchors up. But you do have to like get a body to a place where you can get the winch. I mean, that's that's what those rub marks in the hatches steroies came from the rope. The rope goes down, she ties it around his chest or something like that and then starts winching it up. And I'm sure it would have been a kind of brutally hard job. I mean, you know, obviously she didn't plan the crime as carefully as you probably should have. I also, I

guess I just have a problem with what. You know, she's the one who pointed the rope marks out, and like if she had cost them with the winch, she would yeah, yeah, that that that's one possibility. She would have kept her mouth shut. I don't know if that was maybe her trying to get out ahead of kind of get ahead of the whole thing, and just you know, it was it was dumb if she did anyway, So it was dumb. I mean I think that. But again

that there and there there. I've seen an other cases where people point stuff out to the police that later incriminated him. It's like, I really do think that it's either maybe arrogance or maybe they're just trying to get ahead. You know, they don't want the police to point to this and I say to you, what's this? And how do you look? All guilty? Instead you say, hey, wow, what's that policeman? You know? And so yeah, anyway, sorry, but anyway, I never said Sue was brilliant. Yeah, oh, anyway,

back to the prosecution. So let's finish the size. Yeah. So so she she scuttles the boat, or at least attempts to then takes the dinghy back to shore, cast to the drift, goes home. It's three way to am. She made it a ten pound call it or landline, so that's one zero pound And apparently in Australia what that does is it tells you the number of the last incoming call that you received. It's like, what do we have her here that we used to have before it was a star six line? Yeah, same kind of

same thing. This is the prosecution theory. Why why did she do ten pound? She just I think she wanted to see, if we'll see, because she was going to she was going to tell the police that she was home all night. Now if somebody had been trying to call her, yeah, and so and her last call was an income and call from Richard King, so she ten pounds it and that's the call then hey bingo? Yeah, okay,

But anyway that the prosecution series seems reasonable enough. But how to convince a jury of this, because remember then that can't just be kind of reasonable, It's got to be beyond a reasonable doubt. Yeah, Because I mean, theoretically, she could have woken up in the middle of night thought the phone had rang and had missed it and started it ten pounds to see if she had truly missed her She's dreamed nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe she was taken a bid night shower and just thought, oh

I got heard the phone. Yeah, absolutely, very common. Yeah, all the time right now? Well, first, what were sues whereabouts after she parted ways with Bob on the afternoon of January Well, okay, she says she went to shore, tied up her dinghy, got into her car and went to Bunnings, which is the Australian version of home Depot. Yeah, she browsed for a long time but didn't buy the thing, then went home. Uh. Bob and Sue lived on Allison Street, which is about two miles from the Royal Yacht Club.

It's about a mile and a half as the crail flies, but by street if you walk it drive it's too much. Yeah. She said it was getting dark when she got home, so that would be late because sunset and Hobart that

day was a PM. And after she got home she made two phone calls and then she received that ten o five phone call from Richard King that I mentioned before, and she was home the rest of the night until she was filmed by police the next morning at seven eleven am, and she drove down to the Royal Yacht Club right away, and that's on the seven that's what she told police. Um and this story of course did change a bit over time, as you guys may or

may not know. Yeah, but that same morning, the owner of a house at to Margaret Street found a red jacket on the brick while outside his house. And you could see this house on Google street View. They drove past it. To lay this out for you, Marieville Esplanade is a street that runs right next to the marina and kind of runs north south and parallel to the shoreline.

At the north end of it, or near the north end of it, at right angles there is uh Margaret Street that goes off of it, a tease into it. And so this house was just right off from Reville Esplanade and this uh and and whether Jackets was found is about a hundred and fifty yards from where Sue had tied up the digging the night before we had the ladder in the Royal ot Club. Police showed the jacket to Sue. She said she'd never seen it before, but it turns out she had in fact, it actually

belonged to her, which is weird. Yeah. I don't know why she didn't just own up to it. I don't quite get that, but she said she'd never seen it before. I also noticed that she had she had apparently injured her her wrist in her thumb. She had a bandage on her thumb, and her wrist had been strapped like she's been sprains maybe like with an ace bandage kind of strapped, I'm guessing is what that means. Yeah, Yeah, And it turns out, remember I mentioned that photo was

taken up lunch the day before. Well, her hands were visible on the photo and she didn't have any bandages or strapping or anything. So something had happened. Something had happened, you know, over the course of that less than twenty four hours to injure her, like maybe moving a body. Sorry. Uh. She also at that time unprompted. And now remember this is meeting the police down there. They've been she's been told the day of the morning, I've just been told.

While the boats thinking, she shows up the police there and she said that the four Winds have been boarded by somebody two or three days before. And she said she was concerned that drug smugglers are perhaps hitting drugs on the boat. Yeah, yeah, there you go. She talked about maybe I'm getting some sniffer dogs and sniffing the boat, you know, to see if there were drugs on it. Oh yeah, yeah, no, I've never seen that drag before. It's the drug that the drugs. It's gotta be the drugs.

Really faster them on drugs. But you should look at some drugs. You should look at some drugs. Yeah, there might be some drugs on there. I don't know. Smugglers, smugglers, that's done it. Smugglers. Yeah, so yeah, I get those dogs on my boat right now. Well, yeah, kids were not advocating drugs, don't know. Yeah, I think at this point, um, there was no suggestion to foul play even I mean, they didn't even actually know that Bob was missing at this time, and so you know, so she's weird. She's

like going on, Yeah, it was weird. She did. She said some weird stuff. But people do well sure, I mean, yeah, and that's not obviously a hanging offense at least unless you say too much weird stuff and then it is. But uh. Sue had another interview with the police on February five, which would be ten days after Bob went missing. She did repeat what she said about going to bondings after leaving Bob, and then a month later she repeated

that claim again to police. But at this point they had a chance to check out the CCTV and it's closercuit television from the store, and they couldn't find her anywhere. And they said, Jesus, we can't find you on any CCTV from the store. And also, by the way, so did you know the Bunny's closes at six pm that day? That's weird because they only let me in. I was the drugs. The drugs was not the drugs. I was wondering where this nobody there. I was wondering why it

was Yeah, yeah, uh so. And then at that point she said, well, she was pretty sure she'd gone there that day and uh And then in that same interview, she also repeated that she'd been home all night at the night of January seven. Man, Okay, so I have a really bad memory. And you guys know, I don't think I have even this bad of a memory. I mean, maybe like a year ye, but a day before, yeah, day before like, I don't know what I did a

lot yesterday. I don't know. Maybe she was drunk, maybe she had gotten Actually, okay, if she is under a lot of stress, if this project is stressing around and Bob is stressing around, and something else is and she is just not handling things well. Plus I seem to also remember her somewhere in the reading that she was on some medication that they would have a side effect of messing with your memory. Yeah, I think she was

on zan X or something like. Yeah. So it's it is possible that she's did go to a store, and it is possible that she went to a Bunnings, but they may not have been in the same day, same trip, and she may have just in the alphabet soup of her memory on drugs. She may not. And I'm not saying elicit trucks. I'm saying, prescribe drugs because the side effects. She might have thought that she was telling them the truth.

And you know, it's it's one of those things with memory when you recall it and you say this is you rewrite it and you seen it, and so she may have inadvertently st story. Well, yeah, she might have. I mean, that's what a lot of people are saying. And they're saying that she might have it could just be misremembering something. Yeah, it seems like you might say to them, like, you know what, I know, this sounds

really suspicious. I'm on, you know, some drugs. I'm happy to like my doctor can talk to you about the side effects. But she may not with her memory though. Well, yeah, I mean that's true. She made she made her away where this is a This is a good you know, good murder tips for all your potential murderers out there is don't don't ever give the police too much, you know, to give him the barare minimum? They say, well, where were you yesterday? Well, I saw Bob and then I

wanted and then I went home. And then later on they saying, well we kind of county being home with you know, always say oh, well I did stop at the store for a little while on the way home, and that's nothing. That's not suspicious. I mean if I go, you know, and so anyway, just the murder tip there, um, good job, Joe, Yeah, I know where were we? So she she was she had talked to the police. Uh, this is you know, again, like a month and a half I think after the disappearance, around this time, the

police also talked to Sue's daughter. She had two daughters, as I said, and they showed her a picture of a car which looked just like Sue's car, and they said, well, this voter app was taken right down by the Royal Yacht Club on twelve fifteen am, the night of the murder. Is that a your mother's car? And they and they said, well, I guess, And well they must have talked to Sue about this, because is right after that her story started

to change. Yeah, a few days after that she told remember and and Sanchez, Bob's daughter on the phone with Terrist said she she that night, the night of the disappearance, that she had been worried about Bob out there in the boat by himself, and so she got in the car and drove down to the water to look at the boat, and then she drove back home just like

gaze Longing Lanes. Just I don't know what she expected to see, like, you know, because well, yeah, it was Yeah, maybe she expected to see the boat in flames or something like that. I'm not sure. But that bomb she planted, yeah, or that I hadn't gone off. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then not long after I marched thirteen, she was interviewed by Felicity Ogilvie, who was a reporter for ABC, which

is what Australian broadcasting corporation. I think sounds good, Yeah, and she told her a similar story about change, you know, about not staying home all night, getting in the car, driving down to check on Bob. Felicity passed this on to the police. This was the first time police had heard this, you know everything, you know, she had always told them that she was home all night, so obviously

that that got their interest. Uh. Then markye, she had a phone conversation with an Sanchez again, and this time she said that she had driven down to Marieville Esplanade again, the street right outside the Royal Yacht Club and left the car there and that was late that night, left the car there and walked home for exercise. She didn't changed the story again a little bit, and then May five police interviewed her again and she told them that

she had actually been mixed up about time. She was actually on the four wins later than she had thought with Bob. And then she said after that she she went to shore. He left her car parked on Marieville Esplanade or maybe Margaret Street, and walked home because she wanted the exercise. And then later that night she said she decided she she should go get the car and bring it home. And so that was again, I don't know how late at some point, so she walks down

again a two mile walk from her house. She walks down to the waterfront, and when she got to the waterfront, she realized she brought the wrong keys, and so she didn't have the car keys. So she turned around and walked back home, and she got the correct car keys and walked back down to the waterfront. She definitely hit her step goal for the day, didn't Yeah, yeah, we're talking like, yeah, six miles there and I and looking, what's the original two miles she walked home without the

car from so that's told about eight miles walking a day. Yeah, that's pretty good, she was. That's not bad at all. Yeah, some people walk. Oh no, I mean, I'm not saying that I haven't walked eight miles in a day. I'm just saying that that's usually usually when I go from my six mile highs, I do it in the daylight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so this would have been late at night, right, Yeah, very late at night. Remember she was on the phone with Richard King till ten, so yeah, so it would

have been at least yeah after that. So, so she finally succeeds in coming down there with the right keys and uh, and she got the car. Then she drove north and you can see this on on Google Earth if you look at it. She drove north as a jet an. They're just not far north to the Art Club and there's some some metal sheds out there where there's a rowing club. And drove out onto the jetty to the end and walked down to the end of the jetty to look across to the boat and see

it and just to check on Bob. And who knows, maybe she was like jealous. She thought Bob might be partying or something like that. She was looking for her like bright lights and loud rock music or something like that. But she did a shrimp on the Barbie rock and roll tunes. Yeah, so she looked out to see if what was going on with Bob. Couldn't see anything because it was pitch black because it was night. Yeah, it

was night. And then she went yeah, and then in that same interview, the police asked her about the red jacket again and they said, they said, you know, I don't know if they've actually pulled it out and showed it to her, just mentioned it to her. They said, well, you remember the red jacket that you said you'd never seen before. What we tested it for DNA. Your DNA is all over it, yea. So she admitted it was

her jacket. And and then okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, what's so incriminating about the jacket other than they found it and she lied about it. Yeah, nothing, really, I don't Yeah, I mean, it's just strange that she lied about it. I'm just making sure I'm clarifying that there wasn't something on it wed her. I guess I should say. The other The only other thing that was incriminating about it was that Sue had said she left in mid afternoon.

She left the yacht and went the buns and then went home, and the person who lived in the home at to Margaret Street found it early in the morning. He said when he came home at night, and he didn't I'm not sure exactly what time that night the jacket was not there, So sometime in the night and the jacket winds up on this wall, and so okay, that's what that's the significance of the whole thing. Yeah, you know. And also the denial, frankly never looks good

to police. So none of this is looking good for when she goes card. No, no, it doesn't look it doesn't look that gray. Yeah. And that trial, Yeah, they did go to trial. Things didn't get better. Um. And so remember what I just said, when she after she'd got in the car, she's driven to the end of the jetty to look at the four Winds and check out Bob. Well, it turns out there was somebody else

on that jetty that night. His name was John Hughes, and he testified that he didn't see anybody else out there and said, sus that she'd driven out to the end of the pier or the le jetty in her car would be pretty hard to miss. That would be

kind of hard to miss. Yeah, And he was also testified he did see a woman or somebody who looked like a woman in an inflatable dinghy with an outboard motor heading northeast from the Royal Yacht Club and in the general direction of the Four Winds and that was about between eleven thirty and maybe twelve that night, and

so so that's not so point now. And then also the police, as I said, interviewed everybody that Sue knew and suing Bob knew, and they happened to track down this guy at one of the sailors, Peter Stevenson, the guy helped bring the boat to where they yeah. One of that guy. He testified that Sue, when they were on the trip, told him that her relationship with Bob had been strained and that it was basically over and

it had been over for some time. He also said that when he arrived in Hobart and Bob met them, apparently approached to assume maybe wanting to hug her or something like that, she just basically kind of stood back from it and ignored him. Was not terribly it was not warm towards him at all. So again that doesn't prove anything. It just proves that they were fighting. Yeah, I mean, she's a very normal thing for couples to do. Well, it is, but they've been apart for quite a while.

I don't know how long it takes to sail from Queensland down down to Tasmania. I would think it would take a while. I think think like a week anyway, something like that. But listen, if if something gets in somebody's you know, they got a burr under their saddle and they are pissed at you about something and they've had a week to stew on it by themselves, and then you show up, Yeah, maybe they're not gonna welcome

you with open arms. Yeah it could be. I mean, this's just this is all not necessarily proof of anything like that. You know, just there was some tension between them. But I don't know what other what more testimony they had. They had son Tim chappell Uh He testified that he'd been with Bob and Sue in the Four Wins twice in the month before the murder, and he said the tension between them was so thick that you could cut it with a knife, and said have made him uncomfortable.

And then he also said that Sue told him in January seven again, this is like right after Bob disappeared, for our wins have been broken into twice in Hobart, and Tim said he was surprised because he hadn't heard anything about this before. And I got the impression that Tim actually had a fairly close relationship with his dad and and his dad probably would have mentioned something too,

and that's why he felt surprised by it. And she actually, I mean as far as all the break in she I mean, Sue it said that it had been broken into. They gott have been broken into up in Queensland. Later on she denied that she had ever said that. She said and and and so her statements on that, and that's why there's a lot of statement she made about this stuff. I'm not talking too much about that because

she was all over the place on that. And there's this is again another one of those stories where there's so many confu lifting accounts, especially when they come from that one person, that it's hard to cover them all because you just it becomes jibber jabber. Yeah, it's hard to follow because as I did this, and I did that, I did this, and I did that, I did this

anoint and uh, yeah, the whole the whole break in thing. Yeah, and I'm and there were there were a few other testimonies to the fact that she had said that the relationship was over. I'm not going to name names, are going to do deeply at an except for one guy, uh, a former friend and I think my former friend. I don't think they had a following up, but they just sort of like just stopped hanging out, lost track of each other. But this guy's name was Philip Triffint. Last

name reminds me have Triffid. But he used to be buddies with them, and he testified that in the nineties I think this is nineties six or nineties seven, he was on Sue's bow. This is about that she on prior to the four winds, and they were out. She asked him to help her take her brother Patrick out to see and drown him. Yeah. Apparently there's some dispute between Sue and Patrick over her mother's property and so so I just planned to way Patrick downward the toolbox

and send him up to Davy Jones locker. Uh. And then her idea was that that Philip Trippitt would then take the boat closer to shore and sink it after she had gone ashore in the digging. And then she's he said, he testified in court she showed him how they could sink the boat by using the bilge pump, and that that that would be another way to I mean besides just shutting it off, you could actually reversese

reverse it. So did he mention if they if she came up and explained this entire plan over a case of Foster's. I've assuming they were on a boat. I'm assuming there were a few beers involved. Well that's what you know. It's like you sit around and you you can talk. I mean, if you got nothing to do but talk for days, you can come up with some wild stuff going, especially if you're boozing it up. Sure,

for sure. I mean if if they put me on trial and murder and all the people that they could drag in to talk about, how many times did Joe talk about murder with you? Well quite a few times. Two. Yeah, and so yeah, it would look good for me. That's why I got to stay out of that whole thing. Yeah, And I don't know why, but Philip Triffic, I don't know why I didn't agree with this point to this plan.

And maybe it was a part about him sinking the boat after she'd taken off with the lifeboat, like, because that was her plan. You sink the boat while I'm going to shore in the dighy. So apparently you hang out on the sinking boat. Yeah, that never came to it.

Maybe he was a good swimmer, I don't know, but he also testified this not too long after that, she he ensued had another conversation at her home, and Sue said that she wanted to do a similar thing is she talked about with her brother Patrick before, except she wanted to do what she wanted to do it with Bob and she wanted to wrap him in chicken wire instead of you know, doing the whole I don't know why chicken wire, but maybe this is why Philip didn't

want to be friends with her, because she just kept being like, these are all the ways I'm going to murder the people around me. And he was like, maybe I shouldn't, Maybe I don't need yeah, yeah, And I said he's like thinking, like, well, when I'm not around she talked about murdering me, I wonder, I don't mean this kind of negative? Do I want or maybe it? Do I want to be voting with this person out in the ocean, Maybe not not? Don't turn your back

on her anyway? Well, anyway, so that was that didn't look so good. Of course that's not just positive, but in the you know, when you look at all the other things that people are saying. Sue said to them, well, it doesn't look so good. And then could have just

been a generally unpleasant person. I mean it's completely possible. Yeah, yeah, probably, But well, anyway, long story short, Sue was convicted and sent to the Pokey for murder based on a very circumstantial case, and of course her family and friends began to movement to exonerate her and get her sprung from prison. Again, as as we have already said, the case against her wasn't really air tight. There was nobody, no murder weapon. There was that DNA evidence showing to other people have

been in the boat. Uh. And they also stressed, as as we've already talked about, that are changing stories might have been the result of a poor memory and stress and drug use. Um. And then there were also there are three witnesses who said they saw a great dinghy saw alongside the four winds that day, of course, and and the four winds dinghy is white. So and they said they saw a great dinghy. Yeah, that's that's varying graves of varying shades of white distance. That is the deal,

is that? Yeah? And certain especially if it's in the shade and stuff like that on a sunny day, I don't put a whole lot of stock in it. It was a great yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, and so that's uh. But but then and I also mentioned that thing about the Victoria Police doing their review and they're they're they're thinking that the pots the positive Megan Boss's

DNA was by direct contact and not transference. And they also said that they felt that it would have been quote mechanically impossible for the African to have winch the deceased in the manner described by police unquote, so that was their considered opinion. They didn't think it was possible for her to get that body out of the out of the cabinet into the dinghy, not pursue anyway, that's they said. And then last of all, there was a local sailor whose name I can't remember now. I saw

a picture of him. Yeah, yeah, Well the picture of him was somewhat older picture where he had long shoulder length hair, and he came out after after the trial, after the trial and conviction and said, well, I was I was out of my digging that night and I have my hair was down to my shoulders. Maybe he saw John Hughes on the jetty at the rowing sheds, saw me and not Sue. He could have been he saw me and saying you're going in the general direction of a boat is a pretty wide swath of directions.

So it is, it is so. So these are some of the various things that have made people think that, well, maybe Sue's case deserves another look. And it has had another look or two. Again, there's been appeals and the more appeals, the most recent one I think was the Supreme the Australian Supreme Court. So this is what we call controversy uh as and as a that it's gotten huge coverage in Australia. Uh And of course there's that award I think I mentioned earlier. Yeah, and and the billboard, Yeah,

and the billboard. Uh And in this latest appeal earlier in this year, Sees defense lawyers promised he would be some startling, new fresh evidence. And it is because Megan Voss remember her has returned. Oh yeah, that girl. But

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Just go to eye fit Nourished dot com slash sideways for free fourteen serving bag of eye Fit Nourish mix and shaker bottle. It's hassle free and a convenient. It's I Fit Nourished dot com slash sideways to create your own mix today. Because motivation is hard enough. And we're back in April two thousand seventeen, which is just mere months ago. Megan Voss finally fessed up. She signed a statement admitting that on the night of January nine, she was indeed on board the Four Wins with two unnamed

men um. And this obviously is a game changer. I mean, all the other previous appeals, they never really brought any startling, fresh new evidence. They're really just fighting what they considered circumstantial evidence. Yeah, essentially, just they keep you going holes in the case. Yeah, trying to you know, just saying, hey, this guy had long hair that night and he said he was out in his boat. Yeah, as on other things, Yeah, yeah, exactly.

But this was really a game changer. But then in fall, this is just a couple of months ago, it was time for Megan. And obviously, by the way, if you're listening to year two thousand and fifty seven, well it was fifty years ago. But yeah, for us from this standpoint. But when it was time for Megan to take the stand, she recanted her story. She said she had been coerced in as signing the statement about being on the Four Winds. And it turns out that her boyfriend was a biker

name Sharky, great name. Yeah, And I think I'm going to change mind to that. Huh. And he has a man remember the Devil's Henchman Motorcycle Club. That's a fun name. Yeah. Her, this boyfriend, Sharkey, had another girlfriend. Yeah we're steppy. Yeah right, good relationship. I know, I know these are these are wonderful people that This other girlfriend's name is Karen Kief. Karen did some time in prison turns auctually. She was

in the same prisons as Sue Neil Fraser. Yeah. Yeah, and Karen seems to have hatched a scheme to collect that forty dollar reward plus some other money. There was talking the press about a total total amount of dollars in Australia. Yeah, yeah, where come from. Well, I'm not totally sure about I'm not and I'm not I'm not saying that Sue promised the too or anything like that. Maybe somebody else I had no idea exactly promised her this kind of private source that we don't know about.

But yeah, yeah, exactly. And uh, but anyway, we're talking about it an overall amount of you know, a substantial amount of money, yeah, at least in Australia. But the scheme involved getting Meg into confess involvement in the crime, which would tend to make, you know, make it possible to maybe get Sue out of prison. But it turns out when Megan recanted, she said she had been coerced. She said that she was quote threatened to be put in the boot of a car over that piece of

paper unquote. Yeah. That doesn't sound like fun to me. No, I assume I assume what was meant by that is putting the boot of a card like dead, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and so yeah, So, so it turns out that was a big fizzle. That piece of fresh evidence is kind of out the window. And as for Karen O'Keefe, if you're wondering, she and a couple of other people, one of them was an attorney, have been charged with quote, perverting the course of justice unquote. So they're in more

trouble now. Oh yeah, I mean they understand. Courts really don't like it when you pull this kind of Yeah. Sudor supporters have also brought in a guy named Paul Row that's w. R. O E, who turns out was living on his boat in Sandy Bay, which is right about there and a nearby winds. Yeah, and it turns out, Paul has a violent criminal past, and he's been accused by some people of being a serial killer. And yeah,

that's well, some people have said he was. He would be a very credible suspect as a killer of Bob, so you know, and obviously they seem to be basically throwing everything they can at the wall seeing if anything will stick. Yeah, Paul Rose says he never met Sue or Bob. He says he's not a serial killer. In fact, he says he's going to Suepie people over that. Yeah, he had a big the police DNA it was in

two thousand twelve. I think they probably did question everybody who was anywhere nearby and so he did give them DNA evidence. Uh, and sample didn't match anything having to do with the crime. And as for the criminal past, Rose says, it was just youthful exuberance, you know, like you know, you use a little bar fights and stabbings act something here. Yeah, he did that kind of stuff.

He did that kind of a sketchy youth you know. Sorry, as I know, there there is no evidence to incriminate him in Paul Rowin in Bob's death in any way. So the latest, the latest appeal to free Sue appears to have fizzled. Um, kind of like circling the drain. I think this might be it as far as trying to get our prison. But nonetheless, opinion down under is still sharper divide as to whether Sue actually did the deed or not. So the question is is who murdered

or at least who disappeared Bob Chappel. Great question, yea, some how we're not in theories yet, Well just in series no moment here, Yeah, I know, let's toss out some series here. So who did it? What happened? Okay? Uh? Number one the number one? No particular order here, But one popular theory is that the Tasmanian Devil got him. Yeah, A lot of people believe that Bob was a victim of a random Tasmanian Devil attack. A lot a strick after that, s say a lot, I mean the number

between zero and five thousand. Did the Tasmanian Devil think that he was bugs Bunny and therefore had to attack him, because that's the only reason that Tasmanian Devil ever kills and the Warner Brother cartoons. You know, it could be like Mr. Direction, Maybe Susan and then we suit tapped about so to say, hey, hey, bugs is on that boat? I don't know, this is obviously not real. No, no, I'm not going to get this any more oxygen because I actually think the Tasmanian Devil's get kind of an

unfair wrap. They're actually very cute little animals and they are totally harmless when they're not trying to murder you and their cousins of chupies. So we gotta be nice to actually, and I couldn't do this without going out in the web and looking at some Tasmanian devil pictures. And they are pretty cute when they're not hissing and screaming with their mouths open at you Withdrew coming out. Yeah, and they do have large they're the Australian raccoon. Yeah,

they kind of are. But yeah, when they're not doing that, they're kind of cute looking. So okay, so much for that good jump. By the way, Devon for not freaking out of the mention of a raccoon than you. Is this this is therapy is working? Yeah? Yeah, it's like it's like exposure therapy, exposure exactly. Yeah, alright, no, our next theory, which she's sleep. Yeah, I don't think she cares.

She's actually she's she's staring at her phone and not actually reacting at That's not true, Yeah, staring at the script and not reacting. Just may next the next sory, Bob chap will left to start a new life, pausing all of their frames Sue on his way out the door. Yeah, No, that would have been. That would because that would have meant Bob like giving up all of his retirement, just going off to start a new life and living in

poverty somewhere. So it's ridiculous. Yeah. Another possibility is maybe Bob committed suicide and either widdingly or not incriminated Sue at the same time, which I'd say was well done, sir, but it seems to Yeah, yeah, no, I don't think so. Yeah, no evidence for that. You know, they probably would have found his body, Yeah, because they did, as I mentioned, scour the river pretty well, especially where the boat was. Okay,

so the suicide thing is uh so. Another one is maybe Bob died accidentally and as she discovers his discovers him dead, decides to ditch the body. Thinking, well, now since I've talked to so many people about the possibility of murdering Bob that he's dead on the boat. Maybe does look kind of bad. Maybe I should just ditch the body. Yeah, maybe me dumping the body in the exact way I discussed the murdering people sounds like a better idea. It wasn't exactly used to fire, extinguish or not.

This is very dumb to me because if indeed she had found him dead in some form, I don't care whether it was he accidentally stuck a fork in his own head or he drowned in an inch of water in the bottom of the boat. If she immediately took the dinghy, I'm guessing they didn't have a cell phone, so she immediately went back to the marina. She actually called the cops. She actually had her cell phone on

her on the odd when she visited Bob that afternoon. Okay, so well, I'm just saying, but even even if she didn't have a phone on her and she had had to go make the call, nobody would have said, huh, why did you leave, like it would it wouldn't have looked weird as weird as just the body disappearing, not at all, not at all. So, I mean, that's obviously a ridiculous idea, but you know, I don't know how much our listeners love to hear theories series and lots

of series, so we'll throw all all out there. Oh yeah, none of them are sicking though. That's kind of like the Freedom the Free Sue team. You know, they're like, just keep throwing stuff at the wall and it seems to stick. You know. Another theory, and this is a popular theory. I'm not lying now that somebody other than Sue murdered Bob, and that's what a lot of people believe. Of course, the presidence of two sets of d n A on the boat, one of which is unknown, would

suggest that maybe this is kind of possible. Well, then there's a there this. This would lend credibility to the odd things like the dinghy being randomly floating loose and stuff like that. Yeah. So yeah, so somebody stole the dinghy, went out to the boat, murder Bob and then took it back to shore and didn't bother to tie it up, and didn't bother to clean up the blood in the bottom, because why would you? But why would you care? It's not your dinghy and you know, you don't care, so

you know, okay. But on the other hand, of course, of Sued used to dinghy, it's conceivable she could have left it untied expect to get to drift out to see so you know that. So the fact that the dinghy was untied does not prove that somebody other than Sue took the She would have to be amazingly unaware of the way that water moves inside of a marina to think that, yeah, and ties and all that good stuff. Yeah, I don't know, I mean, yeah, she may have been

amazing amazingly unaware. I don't know. I mean, but I've seen things untied in the waterfront here in Portland at the marina that you and I used to go to all the time, and it was exceedingly difficult for things to get out, And it seems so simple, and yet stuff would just bounce around in there and never go away. Yeah, that's because there's a decent sized current, and that's in an eddie. I mean, it's and I could totally see the Royal Yoch Club being in an eddie because it

is kind of been a dimple in the coast. Yeah. But my my point is that dinghy floats on top of the water, so it's gonna be hard to find that one scare two little escape points. One thing I will say is that when I was googling other things that will light looming all up, bleach is one of

the things that will light looming all up. So it's possible that she did bleach out the bottom of the dinghy, thinking well, they'll you know, they won't find any blood in it because it will have been cleaned, but if they find it floating, it will make it look more like somebody who didn't really care about it, you know, just threw it away or whatever. And then they did

test it for women all and she was like, oh dang. Conversely, though, if if that dinghy came with the boat and they bought the boat used and the boat was not in the greatest of shape, that dinghy may not have been in the greatest of shape, and somebody might have said, ah, it's a white dinghy and the interior is brown, maybe I should bleach it and see if I could clean it. I mean, there's not a million ways that somebody else could have been murdered in the dinghy too. I mean, realistically,

it could be somebody. I don't know how long blood sticks around to you know, light looming all up. But I don't know how often you clean your dinghy either. I don't. I wouldn't clean it. It's on an individual basis. But it is weird. I mean, you know, it's weird that there's two sets of DNA and that one of them is Megan Boss maybe but maybe not, but probably probably, But I guess I thought the point of like, even you know, putting your boat at a yacht club is

that like there's there's restricted access. It's like a gated community for your boat, so it's safe for people. You know, people like to break into boats and MA break into That's why people put him in locked marinas and stuff. And so if her boat was tied up in the marina, would have been difficult to get to unless it was maybe somebody there was a serial killer, like you know, living or at least using the marina, could have gone out dext style, Yeah exactly, you know, and you had

extra on the boat there you go, yeah with Dexter. Yeah, it could have been Dexter down. Yeah, what's Australian for Dexter? What's up? What's dexter upside down. Yeah, that's your answer. Yeah, it's like, no, I'm not gonna say it, Rhett Okay now yeah, now it's too much of a tongue twister.

Of course, if somebody else, uh, if somebody else, say, had had had access to the club and they stole the dinghy and took it out to the boat killed Bob, then that renders the whole Megan Boss sub theory kind of moot anyway, But then it still doesn't totally pointless explain why her DNA was there. But sure, no it doesn't.

And I'm thinking it was Megan. You know, it could just possibly be she didn't want to admit to this, but it might just be that she and some of her friends at some point got their hands on a small boat decided to go out because everyone and if you look at the area all I don't know if it's the same case in two thousand nine as it is now, but literally I counted the boats out There were like sixty large boats anchored off the yacht club when that boat it was taken, and so I could

totally see some some near Dowell types that they get their hands on the boat going out there. Some night and just you know, going from boat to boat, finding boats that are unoccupied, seeing if they can break in and steal stuff stuff. Yeah, maybe she, you know, maybe she at some point, you know, pull she had her friends pulled alongside that boat, and she reached out and grabbed it, you know, and and and maybe they heard Bob down below or whatever and just took off. I

don't know, who knows. So it could be that she actually did was on the boat or touch the boat or something. I mean, who knows. But as far as somebody else doing it, there's a couple of problems with this. Like I just said, there are a lots of yachts

anchored there. All those boats are gonna have tenders for getting to shore with a big chunk of those boats would have had their tenders tied up in the Royal Yacht Club, and the club also would have had other small boats to steal for non nautical types tenders or the dinghy. Yeah, the tenders are the dingy. Yeah yeah, the tender is the thing you used to get to shore. Sorry about that, but yeah, yeah, but people keep asking for you to use all those nautical terms and losing them.

Body talk. Um, But so there's all these small boats to steal in this in this marina. It's kind of an amazing coincidence. It's somebody intending to board and go out to the Four Winds and commit murder, robbery. Whatever happened to take the same exact tender belonging to that same exact boat out of the marina. That's really remarkable.

And as you were saying, you know, wasn't marked the best I can tell, Like I said, I've seen two pictures of it, and I haven't seen it from every single angle, but I didn't see any markings on it that's indicated it was belonged to the Four Winds. But maybe her sus knots were really easy to actually get off. People actually used a cable lock. Yeah, maybe maybe maybe marks were extra special, crappy. That's a good three square knots that worked. Yeah, of course, And you could argue

that if they did something. I know it was like if it was marked the Four Winds. Maybe somebody says, Okay, there's a boat out there called Four Winds. This must be the cruise ashore, and so we'll take the dinghy out there because we know that since they're ashore the

boats empty, we can go rob it. But if there's anywhere from twenty to sixty boats out there, they they got that's gonna take a while, unless they've really been watching what's super innoculars and they've got them all marked or something like that, which which speaks to a grander, larger conspiracy slash. Exactly. The four Wins wasn't like the grandest boat that was there, right, I mean, because there would be something to be said of, that's the biggest

boat out there. We're going to that one. Yeah, you know, I'm sure it was one of the larger ones. At three ft that's pretty decent size, but it wasn't like the biggest stuff. It's not a mega Yatt fifty three is not that enormous, but it's not I mean, maybe that was It's a substantial boat. Yeah, maybe that was just it is they thought, oh, yeah, this says for or you know whatever, and we're going to go out to that boat that's the biggest one, yeah and rob it.

And then you know, midway through the robbery, Bob comes up and they're like, dang it, yeah exactly, so they hit him over the head with something and uh and of course, they don't know if they've killed him or not. I mean, you know, you don't know. Um, yeah, I was. I always love that in the movies when they cocked somebody out. You know, it's like, you know, and they're just always so assured that he's knocked out, and it's like, you know, maybe you killed him, dude. They never even

think about that. But they don't know Bob is alive or dead. And the sensible thing to do at this point is that, well, okay, we just hit this guy. We better get out of here. Let's go back to shore. We'll burn the dinghy or whatever, get rid of the dinghy, and and hopefully his head injury will prevent him from remembering our faces. And and that's that. It sounds like a Liam Neeson movie. Yeah really, but I mean it

really is a sensible thing to do. I mean, going, you know, take his body and hauling it out way out towards the sea and dumping and stuff like that doesn't really make a lot of sense unless you're trying to hide the body. Well yeah, but I mean it's like, you know, if you're just doing a little robbery kind of thing, if you do happen to get little robbery

thing you to say it. Look, you know, we had no intention of hurting anybody, you know, he just got kind of hit on the head, and nobody intended to hurt anybody. Yeah whatever, you know, I mean, it makes but but then what really doesn't make any sense just to get rid of the body and then trying to draw attention to the boat by trying to think it that doesn't really make sense for anybody to do that. Yeah, I mean, there's there's a whole I mean, the motive

thing here's it's weird. Yeah, it's it's very very loose. Yeah, yeah, I guess it's it's a plausible theory, but it doesn't it doesn't really answer most of the questions I have. No, it doesn't. And nobody has surfaced really with any kind of a motive to do it, unless it was somebody completely random, all right. So that leaves us with what another p ability, which is that Sue Neil Fraser murdered Bob intentionally, intentionally and the evidence kind of looks that way.

And I mean, to really is the one person who had a motive to sink the boat, which would be like you know, I might I think about a potential motive would have been would be it would have been Sue didn't want to be the one to discover, to discover the body or the the evidence of foul play or anything, So by sinking the vote or at least, you know, sending it lower in the water, because she knows it's going to take that boat a long time to sink, you know, And so she does that and

then knowing that somebody's probably going to notice and she'll be called down there and she can just you know, show up and she won't be the first person on the murder scene. So you know, that's a possible motive. I mean, I don't know, it's not rock solid, but the only motive I can think of a really sinking the boat. I know that this sounds dumb with a boat, but it always seems like if you're going to destroy the evidence, burning the boat would be much more efficient

in in destroying evidence than trying to sink it. Well, what I would have done if I would think like a kerosene landard or something like that, and you just push it over on a cushion and then you run and leave it's going to catch a fire, Well that I was just gonna say, I mean, you know, boats sink sometimes, and I don't know that there's a you know, if you have insurance on it and your boat sinks

and you get to claim insurance. I don't know that they're going to go in there and be like, oh, look, it looks like the three sabotage things are going to be like, wow, that sucks your boat. Song, here's the money. Somebody's going to investigate a sinking. They always do. It's like when airplanes crashed, somebody investigates it, even if it's

a private craft. Right, But I don't know how how well, yeah, how thorough it is or you know, I don't know boats well enough to know if you could tell, you know,

if these certain things were sabotage necessarily or whatever. So I guess that's always my assumption with when people try to scuttle their boats by sinking them, is that it's like that's I mean, that's the easiest way to say, like, I don't know if something happened to Thank, Yeah, you know, the bilge pump malfunctioned and it stopped pumping and you know it sank. Yeah, obviously you know, Sue didn't plan the crime as well as she could have if she

did it. Of course, we don't know. Yeah, I would have. You know, if I had been her, I would have just I would just not bothered moving the body. I would have just you know, put some c for into the bottom of the hall on timers and then just taking it out to see and set the timers, jumping the dingy head back to shore, and the boat blows up and it sinks nice and quickly. You don't have this hours and hours and hours of slowly sinking it just and then you just blame Kevin Spacey for the

whole thing. It's it's crazy. Yeah, So run through the official how this theory works. I mean we just kind of danced around it. But the prosecution, Yeah, I mean give give everybody what you've got here about why Sue would have done it or why it's beliefs. Why is she's a strong candidate. Yeah, she's a strong candidate because

she had a motive, financial motive. She's the only person that ever talked about killing Bob, and it was just numerous people testified that there was tension between them, that their relationship didn't seem to be that good. She was very near the murder scene the night in question, um, and she tried to cover that up and she had

really kind of super questionable Yeah, well she did. I mean, for example, if she did indeed drive down there, take the dingy out, and and because the assumption is Bob was already dead, she goes out there later to get rid of the body, right and souse on she killed him early afternoon, early in the middle till late afternoon sometime, But well, I had to leave the body because it was still daylight and did the sun didn't set till eight pm? And so she couldn't get rid of the

body until after dark. Yeah, And so so she goes back down now getting rid of the body's going to take her at least two three hours. And that meantime, her car is parked right there on Marie bill Esplanade or maybe Margaret's Street. And so to account for that, I mean, I mean, there's one thing to say, Well, okay, I drove down there, looked walked over and looked out,

came back. But how do you account for the fact if somebody springs up Because she had to become aware after they found this picture of her car, she had to become aware of perhaps other witnesses might come out and say, yeah, I remember seeing that parked in front of my house for like four hours last day of

the night. Whatever she becomes aware of, so she cooks up this story, which is, Okay, I walked all the way down there, I realized I'd forgotten the forgotten all the way back home, walked all the way back down and and that would account for the car being there for this very long period of time, parked in that

place where you know it shouldn't have been. Uh, And that would that would be enough time to do what she intended to do, which is go move the body and get rid of it, which is why you always leave your cell phone at home and you use a bicycle to get to the crime scene. Yeah, I I

time my cell phone to a raccoon's tail. In this case, it would have been a test mean sale, which is the yeah, well so what and what else is She's the one person who, if she needed to get to the Four Winds using the four Winds dinghy, would actually know where that dinghy belonging to the Four Winds was moored. And also the other thing is that if somebody else, like say used another boat um some other killer to go out to the four winds and commit Verton, which

is possible, I guess. And why did somebody into the very same night somebody Untie sus dinghy and throw us the open side to cast to the drift. That's quite a major coincidence when you think about it, that yeah, that this all happened. And I don't think this crime was well planned. I mean, it's entirely possible. I think that it was a crime of passion, that they were having an argument. She picks up a blond object and just bashes Bob over the head with it because she's

just she snaps and hits him. Didn't really actually go down there intending to murder him in cold blood. And the reason I think that is it's just not a well planned crime. I mean, the idea of murdering and below decks, leaving all that blood evidence down there and everything, and having to go to the huge hassle of hauling his body up and getting it into that dinghy. I mean I would have if I had been her, I would have lured him into the dinging and then backed

him over the head. I suspect I actually think she might have actually hit him with the fire extinguisher. Actually, you know, that would account for it being missing too. It's a murder weapon and also you know, communithing to weigh somebody down with. Yeah. Yeah, although you know again murder tip fire extinguishers even when they're heavy, they have a big old fat air bubble right in the middle

of them. Don't use a fire extinguisher, use lead, just a cast iron something, yeah, because cast iron is so handy to layman to these days. Actually you can get check cast iron cheap, go out and craigslisted by a used weight set Olympic weight set, you know. And that's and and there's just just dirt cheap and it's super easy to move around in your ding, you to. Absolutely, it takes up a lot less space than concrete, and unlike concrete, little bits of it don't crumble off, you know.

And also it's a lot denser than concrete. Less point. So yeah, cast iron all the way. Red bodies, Yeah, but Mr Universe and dump a body. Yeah. So here's and this is one of the things I do. I think, I think, well, how would I have done the crime? And that that's it again. First off, wait till after right after dark, lure Bob into the dinghy by pretending not to be able to get it started or something

hit him over the head. You've already got two hunder pounds of cast iron stashed at the bottom of the dinghy, So and you head on out towards see Tai Bob, to the to the dinghy and to the cast iron weights. Uh. And then when you're far enough out towards see you puncture the dinging again. Put close to shore, puncture the dinghy so you can swim to shore, head to dangy towards deeper water and swim to shore. And then of course you've thoughtfully hid in the moped somewhere nearby to

get you home. And wah huh. That's that's the way I would have committed this murder, Sue. Obviously. It just doesn't think about things quite the way I do think it. I think, Sue did it. I don't know what you guys, I think. Did I think? Well, listen, you know, I realized that we glossed over a theory in a theory, which is the Bob died by accident theory. So your your theory Bob died by accident. And then she tried

to hide. It excludes the Bob died by accident and disappeared by accident and she's just a ding dong and got herself in trouble. I mean, if he's working on Okay, listen, I just thought about this because it just kind of one of those things that happens to me every four

or five stories. It clicks, my brain turns on. If he's working on the boat, it's entirely possible that he could have hurt himself, which would have accounted for blood being sprayed around he's working on the boat, which would explain why carpet tiles are pulled up and ladders are loose and stuff like that. And we've also seemed to have agreed that Bob is a bit clumsy, because she says he's bad at getting off the boat, shed that other people contradicted that. Okay, but but maybe he's not

the best semen in the world. And at this point he is bleeding and he runs up onto the top of the boat and falls off the boat. I mean, it's entirely possible that he is then literally swept out to see because he is outside of the marina. It's not as his body's gonna get trapped in underneath everything. I mean, it's it is possible that she know that what she said those dumb as it is is the truth, and Bob hurt himself, sprayed blood all over, and then

fell off the boat. I don't think that's really it, but it's possible, just like everything else we've talked about, except the Tasmanian devil, because that one's not right. You don't like that one. I know it's not real. And I never spins over water. I don't even know if they I don't know if they swim either. To be honestly, don't I don't, I don't, I don't know. I think she killed him. Yeah, I don't see any other way. I'm surprised that this is as controversial as it is

because there's just no other explanation. Even memory loss is not account for the strange story about walking down in the car twice in the middle of the night, like you would have remembered that. I write like there's at some point, yes, the memory loss, fine, whatever, get confused about what story you were at and well, but if you walked eight freaking miles in the middle of the night, you would remember that, and you would probably tell people

that like immediately, Well, I don't know. It's not just the inconsistency of the stories or the memory loss or anything. It's the whole question of why the hell would she do it to begin with. You know, it's like, I really wanted to get the car. Well, why don't you just wait till morning and walk down then, I mean, go ahead, and you go back to sleep and walk down I mean walking down there in the middle of

the night made utterly no sense. And again the whole idea that that's uh that somebody else killed Bob, Well, that's fine, I can entirely see that. But then you got this amazing coincidence of all these strange things that Sue did that night. She went walked back and forth

and back and forth with the car. But it's also Dinghy comes untied, and even though she said she was never anywhere near she went out to the end of a pier to look for Bob, but the witness was right there and she didn't she was not there at the pier. Well, I mean, it's also you know, it's the timing with which she suddenly came forward with this

stuff suspicious too. Yeah, it's if you're only coming out with this stuff when somebody says, okay, but we saw your car, and she goes, oh, yeah, you're right, I remember. This is what happened. Obviously, you're lying about it, obviously. And that's the thing is that it's so truely if there's truly is a miscarriage of justice, and all student needs to do is like give us an honest accounting, what the hell and what what were you up to that night? She may be ashamed to admit what she

was up to. I mean, it's entirely possible that she didn't do what she said. She was with somebody else. Maybe their relationship truly was done to her and she was fooling around and that's why she left the car there overnight. Fair enough, But if you are looking at twenty eight years in prison, aren't you going to be like, you're right, I lied, I was sleeping with this person, and they will corroborate my story. They're how old was

Sue at the time of her conviction? Okay, there there are people of that generation that admitting things like having an illicit of fair they would rather die first. They weren't married, but but they were they might well be, and there are people who they would rather die first than admit that they were going outside of socially acceptable behavior. There's been accounts of this before, whereas you know, it wasn't until the other person came forward to say, listen, dummy,

over there, he and I were doing it. So obviously he wasn't there, and he would still be denied. I mean, people do this stuff. It's flawed logic, but it happens. Well, we just have to agree to disagree on that she killed him. She killed him? Yeah, yeah, he's like, yeah, so you I feel Joe's cell phone is still strapped to a raccoons tale. Oh yeah, but but anyway, all you folks down, I know you can go to sleep, you know, I mean, stop works, stop arguing with one another.

You know it's done. We've decided Sue is guilty. All right, Well that's it. Another mystery solved. Um. Anyway, if you've got a theory of your own, or if I've mispronounced any words, if you're suing in prison and you want to argue with us, say that's fine. You can email us or the email is Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. So yeah, tell us what you think. And we also have a website, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com where you can download and listen to our episodes. We

have merg um what else, We've got an episode list. Yeah, and that's kind of a new thing. Um, so definitely go check that out. We're also on iTunes where you can download and listen to subscribe, give us a rating, and give us a review, a good review. We like those. Uh. And of course you can stream us from god knows how many places. Yeah, a lot of places, Google everywhere in the internet. Yeah. We're on social media. We're on

Facebook where we have a group and a page. Uh. So don't we want you want to like the page, join the group. Yeah, that's it. Don't friend the page now, just join the group. Uh. And that's how you can hang out with us and all of our buddies. And there's lots of fun stuff happening out there. Yeah. We're also on Twitter where we are Thinking Sideways without the gene, and there's lots of fun stuff going on out there.

Devin is posting all the time, like instantly. Yeah. I mean you're like a fiend, like a Tasmanian double on those Oh yeah, yeah, what else. We gotta subreddit, which is you know, kind of active sort of, and I need to get out there actually more often. But there is a subreddit thinking sideways. Uh. And of course you know what else. We've got merchandise. We've got shirts, but stickers as a little red bubble stores there on the right hand side of our website. Well, I guess that's

about it. Trying to wrap this thing up and head on home. You guys, got any last thoughts coming, Let's steam it out of here, alright. No, I can't even pawn right now. I'm sorry. Yeah, you're at the wheel, all right, guys, We'll see you next week. Bye bye.