Thinking Sideways: The Mad Axeman of New Orleans

like effortless, like celebrity slob vibe. Oh I really kind of do. Yeah, you're lucky. I shaved today. I know it's been a week. Been about a week for me too. Actually, okay, let's just let's get into this thing. So this week, in honor again of the month of October and Halloween, we're talking we're talking about serious, creepy, grizzly, gory stuff. Yeah. So yeah, so we're gonna give you another one of

those two this week. It's we're gonna talk about the ax Men of New Orleans, or if you actually live in New Orleans, you want to probably call us the Acment of Nolin's. But this is about By the way, this was a listener suggestion, and I unfortunately can't off the top of my head. Remember I apologize, but if I remember your name, I will. I will. Maybe next week, everybody have to speed on that we're gonna added to your listeners segments. Do thank you for the for the suggestion.

Now this is a fun, grizzly, disgusting kind of thing. Oh yeah, what is fun? Not going that whole string of words. Yeah, well, I guess it's worth the mention, right, just like last week, this week, maybe if you have like kids that you like to listen to this podcast with, or your squeamish or like you're at work, it's probably not Let's say, yeah, but it's not that bad. And at least I know you're only hearing our words, you're not actually seeing people getting chopped up with an axe.

And by the way, that that that is what the X Men was all about. He was an axe murderer, all right. So the X Man was a serial killer in New Orleans. And also he actually murdered a few people outside as a suburb of New Orleans called Gretin that which is right across the river. And then he operated between May nineteen eighteen and October nineteen nineteen, so just like a year, year and a half, basically year

and a half before. And Uh apparently a police detective at the time these were going on and tried to connect them to some murders that took place earlier on about nineteen eleven nineteen twelve. It's generally believed that they were not connected. Yeah, the the m O wasn't exactly to see, Yeah, not exactly. And actually, of all the all the killings and attacks that that were attributed to the axe man, I'm not sure all of these that people count towards the axe men, I'm not sure all

of these were actually the same guy. I don't think that anyway. They were usually attacked with an axe, sometimes a straight razor. One account of the last murder, which is Mike Peppertoni he was killed in October nineteen nineteen, UH says that he was not beating to death with an axe, but he was beating to death with a pipe,

often to let the weapon was laying around. They would have obviously a lot of people heated their homes with with wood in those days, and so people would have a hatchets and axes, and laying around, so he would break into the house, grab an axe, and go to town. Many of them were also Italian shopkeepers, which led some people to suspect the mafia connection, and that is plausible. Actually let other people to suspect that maybe the X

Men just didn't like Italians. As an Italian person, I feel like, especially in those days, not everybody likes Pepperoni pizzas. They're crazy, but not everybody. Yeah. Uh. He generally entered the homes by something out of panel, like you know, you know what a frame and panel door looks like when you've got multiple panels, And he would take a chisel, chisel out of panel. And I'm not sure how he managed to do this stealthily. You would think that would

wake people up inside. Let me let me just clarify, because this was something that it wasn't exactly positive that I got, but I thought I did. So. When you say a panel, so let's say I buy a new door at home depot and they call it a six panel door, which means there's the big thick wood frame and then there's six thin panels in set into the door. So let's say the doors like an inch and a half and they dropped to a half inch depth. And there's those panels that make kind of that pattern that's

the panel, right. Yeah, I have some pictures here are some of the doors that were actually chiseled open, so you can get an idea. I'll hold it up from the microphone at a moment. Okay, yeah, no, that that's exactly what I was talking about. It is one of those because old doors. Doors now aren't made of actual wood. They're formed out of sawdust presswood basically. But old doors,

even today you can get a wood door. Yeah, but old doors, it was a solid frame on the exterior and then it was pieces inset and then inside of that were smaller, thinner wooden panels. And those smaller thinner wooden panels would have had the framing around him kind of like you see an older windows. So you'll see the beveled edges that actually hold the yet molding. And so what you're saying is that he was chiseling that molding away to them be able to pull that piece

of wood out to reach into the doors. That correct. Yeah, and uh, that's what I would suspect is that he got the once you had an opening, can reach inside and unlocked the door from the inside. Okay, some people some people, well actually theorizes that the accident was a midget or a dwarf, because I thought, how could it, How could a full size, a full sized person fit to that that small hole? And you guys saw how small those holes were, don't know, like six or twelve

inches at the best. Yeah, I don't think a person. I don't think a dwarf is gonna fit you. He reads through, you know, but so that that's kind of a silly idea of it. He often he would he would pull the panel out, leave it there, leave it there, sitting there with the chisel, Which makes me wonder why didn't the cops check out the records, See you charge a dozen chisels to his MasterCard? Or you know, I got all the home depots and ask if somebody had

like bought a dozen a dozen or so chisels. Maybe he was working at home depot. No wait wait, or maybe home depot wasn't there they are yet maybe so anyway, before I start talking about the murders of the X man sent a very famous letter which I am not

going to read. I might read. I'm ready to snippet of it, but he said it's a very famous letter to a local paper saying that he was going to swing by the city at twelve DNA and that's just after midnight on March nineteenth, and said that he was going to kill somebody, that he would spare the lives of anybody who was playing jett and playing jazz music in their homes. Uh. And apparently there was a lot

of jazz played that night. But that leads me to suspect that maybe the letter wasn't written by the x Man, but it was written by maybe a frustrated jazz musician and who wanted to gen up a little business for himself. If it was written by the Axe Man, and I've read that letter, the Axe Man is a loon, seriously off their rocker. Things that are said in that letter, something alluding to I am, you know, basically the spirit

of death and I'm ephemeral and YadA YadA, YadA. Is like, whoa, yeah, because that's unusual for somebody who goes around hacking people. I was about to say, you were very high on what you're doing and what you're getting out of and it's it's that just tells me right there that the person that was doing this, if it is one person. Uh huh wow, well yeah, i'd have off your rocket.

Want I'll go to slaughter people with an X anyway? Yeah, anyway, So the if you want to do a Google on that, there's a Wikipedia page and also practically everywhere the page that talks about this, just about every letter I will I will congratulate the X man on good writing. I thought it was a very well written letter. It is. I like it. Actually, it's well written. Yeah, it's kind of kind of you should read it. It does it. I'm just gonna go ahead and throughout there. It starts

out it steems mortal. Comes Tom says hell Comma March thirteenth, Comma nineteen seemed mortal. They've never caught me and they never will. I'm not going any further. No, I just like want to give people a little snippet of like, I mean, you know, do we need to read this, Do you want to read part of it? Let me read one well, or you want to do it hour you want to do it in context of the time when the letter came in, Because it comes in a

majority A good number of the slayings have happened, actually does. Yeah, that's a good point. Uh. So we'll talk about the letter a little later. So let's talk about the departed. So the first victims were Joseph and Catherine Mojo. I think it's Mojo, sounds about right. Yeah. He was an Italian grocer and like like many people back in those days, they had an apartment in the back or above their store or their bar or whatever they had. Uh so may en um, he broke into their home and then

he cut their throats with a straight razor. Straight razor apparently belonged to Joseph Mago's brother, Like it was in the house and he just used it or um. It's hard to sing exactly how he got his hands on it, but essentially he's he got there. He cut their throats and then took an ax to him and bashed them too, And he cut Catherine's neck so deeply that he nearly decapitated her. Yeah, so Joseph actually very stable. Yeah, Joseph Mojo actually survived for a few hours. He was bleeding,

uh severely, almost worse. Yeah, and his brother, I know, seriously, I want to quick So his his brother lived in the apartment next door, and apparently at some point during the night he woke up and heard these strange moans coming from the other side of the wall. He started knocking on the wall and got no response, so he went around and got and came into their home and found them. And of course, obviously it couldn't have been fun. No, no,

and I don't think so. In the apartment they found a bloody set of clothes because so apparently the murderer had brought a clean set of clothes to change into when he was done. And the straight razor was found on the lot of a property very nearby. I don't know if it was right next door or a few and if we were lots away, but that was found

to Dare see you later. And it turns out as again the straight razor belonged to the brother who ran a barbershop, and apparently he had at the barbershop and he had told a co worker that he was taking it home or taking it out to get fixed, because it had a notch in the blade and notching the edge. Uh So anyway, he naturally he became he became a

big sus Yeah. Uh. He he was released because they really couldn't they really couldn't get any have any evidence on him, and he didn't have any real obvious motive. Ye first murder, just like they used the straight blade of the brother. The brother found them. He lived right next door. That is a little suspicious. He didn't hear like screaming or anything, but he did hear knocking a little bit later. Yeah, just and the most disturbing part

of hearing knocking later is somebody flailing. I mean, this is this again. I know I made this joke last week, but it's like it makes me think of Sweeney Todd again with Yeah, but I can just think of that that weird you know, I'm desperate for help and this is just one of those weird places my brain. But you're there, You're helpless. You know that you're not in a good place, and you're trying to get somebody's attention.

The only thing you can do is bang on the wall because you can't make noise because you've had your throat slit. What a powerless feeling. Yeah, I guess that. You know again, it's like, okay, well, even if it was like moaning or just like knocking, like that woke his brother up, But like surely someone screamed, like not necessarily mean. Think about it is is if the guy was quick enough and stealthy enough, you could slit there, throw us before they could wake up and start screaming slits.

You really can't scream. That's definitely true. All right, Well, I was gonna ye, I was gonna say, is let's think about this, and I don't want to go into too much detail, but I'm just trying to think of how could you kill one person without the other knowing when they're sleeping side by side. Ll the wife first, Well, but there's two ways that you can think about it. Is he was on her side of the bed and he cut her throat and then moved across and went

to the husband's side. Or what's even more disturbing is remember that most people, I presume most couples these days sleep in something that equates to at least to queen size bed. In that day and age, a queen's size

bed was a luxury. So you're more in something that's along the lines of the single So if you're both on your backs or on your sides, person can lean over and get one and then the other, and that that would explain why one was like pretty well done and the other was less swell, Right, the farther one, he's got to put a little more effort to get to. I mean. So the brother was deemed not a suspect. Yeah, well he was still deemed a suspect, but they had

no they really had nothing on. So the next murder was a guy named Louis or Louis Sumer okay, Louis Bessumer and his mistress Harriet Low. Harriet actually survived this one, so he was he was struck with a hatchet in the head. And this has been a June of yeah at June, I so a little more than a month since the previous one. Again, you know the ax murder. He used an ax, but he didn't necessarily chop people

to pieces with the axt. He just beat him to death because an access and access are just a kick ass hammer, let's face it, very very big hammer. Oh yeah, so yeah, he got a he got he got a skull fracture from that, and his mistress, Harriet Low, was also hacked and she was unconscious, and uh, they were discovered by the driver of a bakery wagon named John Zenca. He found them in a puddle of blood and they're both bleeding. And the axe, which again belonged to the sumer,

was found in the found in the bathroom of the apartment. Well. And and if I remember right, the only reason the delivery guy found him is it was a grocery correct. Yeah, so he was, Yes, he was a delivery guy. And he showed up at whatever his normal time is. Yeah, you know, Lewis or Lewis is supposed to be there and he's always there, and he's not. This is weird. So he went over to the residents or up to the residents or around the residents, whichever the case may be.

And that's how he walked in on this thing. Yeah. Yeah, they didn't arrest him for it though, So but they found they found a guy named Louis ubi Kan who was forty one year old, black guy. So that's probably why they arrested him. Black guy. Especially unfortunately, the practice that apparently this guy had had worked in the store, and so I'm not really clear if he had worked in the store, have been fired or if he'd just been hired, But apparently that was that was enough for

the police. But they had no evidence, so they finally had to let him out. He did offer some conflicting accounts of his whereabouts on the on the day of the attack, but despite that, they really didn't have anything on him, so they had to let him go. And then the sumer himself was it was actually given a fair amount of scrutiny, and the police decided that they

they've seen a bunch of letters. They found a bunch of letters in German, Russian and kidd Ash in his house and they decided that he was potentially possibly a German spy, so they undertook a full investigation of that, and Harriet Low finally told police that she thought he

was a German spy. Eventually he was released and because he survived to theyd well no no, no, no, no, no, yeah, Lewis died, the sumer died right, but Low survived Louie Louie died, but his his mistress Harriet survived correct well. They said. Eventually, what happened with Harriet Low is that from that the blow that blows to her head from the hatchet damaged the nerves and she wanted up basically paralyzed on one side of her face, and so she underwent surgery to try to fix that, and she died

in surgery. But she was she was kind of an unreliable witnessed the whole thing because she kept putting out really weird statements and and I'm quoting her saying something along the lines of, oh no, it was a mulatto man. It was a big tall man, and like, things just gone all muddled. But I'm sorry, if you've been struck in the head with an AX, you might not have the best recall. Yeah. So, yeah, so I don't know it's say. But again, they kept arresting people and they

could never they could never pin it on anybody. But anyway, after she died again that a lot of attention had turned to the Sumer and so the police arrested him and charged him with murder since she died for reasons relating to the attack. And he actually went to prison it. But but eventually when the trial came around, uh, he was acquitted after a ten minute jury deliberation. Solid evidence, solid evidence. Yeah, Jerry didn't want to waste any more

time on this. Oh yeah, And and she did say Harriet Low did say that she believed that it was Louis Assumer who had attacked her, but I don't know, she doesn't sound the most like the most reliable person. Okay, so next s up. The next attack did not result in death. Somebody named missus Schneider and I don't know

why nobody seems to know what her first name is. Yeah, August five, so it's a couple of months have gone by, and she was pregnant, twenty eight years old, found a dark figure standing over her and was bashed in the face repeatedly, and the several cuts, lacerations, etcetera. And uh, she was found by her husband when he came home about midnight. She said she didn't really remember much about the attack. Apparently she remembered, you know, dark figure looming

over her. The husband said that nothing was stolen and the windows and doors did not appeared to have been forced open, so they fled. They figured that the police figured that the weapon was a lamp that was nearby, so the guy just gave in, picked up a bashed her in the head without a bunch, but she didn't die. And this one, I kind of wonder if this one is not even related to the X Man, because you know, it's not really not really his am and you know

what this is. This is my m O in every one of these stories like this, is that when you get into the middle of the one of these stories, is that this guy's m O changes. Now the reason I have to stick to the same EMMO every but when we're when we're looking at these kind of stories where it's a presumed serial killer, things are usually consistent. The shot with a forty four, they're attacked with a machete,

something like that. But in each one of these cases, the only thing that seems to be consistent is that it's a weapon that's found in their home, which is just a weird. It's a weapon found in their home used to attack their head, Yeah, which is just strange. It doesn't fit what we see normal normal's the wrong word, but typical behavior in needs. So it's just it's odd.

And we have also talked a little bit about the phenomena of like piggybacking and there's a serial killer when there's like a couple and then somebody's like, oh, you know, I have been meaning to attack that person, to murder somebody, and that would be a great time a time I'll just like copy the m O of the serial killer. It'll get attributed to the serial killer, and no one will be the wiser. That's why I'm really getting kind of impatient for a serial killer right here, because I've

got a couple of people I need to offer. We're not doing the show anymore. Wow, that got Can we go to the next one? Now? You've made this super awkward? Or did we actually have we left details behind about Mrs Schneider. Well, let's see, but she had the baby and everything was fine there we know that. Did we say she was pregnant? Yeah, yeah, we had to say she was pregnant. But yeah, okay, so another another details that naturally the police went out and found an ex

convict named James Gleeson. Uh, and they arrested him, and of course they released him because there was no evidence, and that seems to be a recurring theme in this case. And uh, the investigators began to speculate that the attack was related to the previous attacks, but I don't think. I don't think that this necessarily was. It might have been, Yeah, this one seems like a weak link, yeah, a little bit. So.

Our next victim was a man named Joseph Romano. He was living with his two nieces August tenth, So this one came pretty quick on the heels of last one. Yeah, they found a sound of commotion. They probably marry his nieces. Awoke to the sound of a commotion, uh, and came

into the room. They discovered that he had taken a serious bloat of the head and had two big open cuts, and the assailant was fleeting the scene, but they were able to see that he was a dark skinned, heavy set man who wore a dark suit and a slouched hat. So it sounds like maybe orson Wells. Yeah, uh, he was. He was actually injured, but he was able to watch the ambulance, so he wasn't dead yet, but he died two days later because of the head traumas well. Maybe

they shouldn't have let him walk to the ambulance. Yeah, oh, you got these huge cuts, you're feeling good? Okay, cool? Well, why don't you just like get up and walk yourself to the ambulance. It's not like it was paramedics of today with the folding stretcher. It was a cot on sticks and he was was this do we know, Joe, was this a ground floor apartment or that I don't know. That's a good question. I'm assuming it was, but I

would presume too. But yeah, they did. They found a bloody axe in the backyard, and they discovered that a panel in the back door had been chise a little just away. So that's, you know, that's pretty consistent with the axe man, and that this one, I mean, this was the third attack like this, the fourth if you

count Mr Schneider. So naturally, this touched off a lot of mayhem in the city, and people got all kinds of upset and then worried, and probably, you know, probably started buying guns that they didn't already have them New Orleans, so I imagine just about everybody had it come you wouldn't think something. But if you're asleep, it's hard to defend yourself with a gun, yeah, especially when you wake up to getting bashed in the head with an axe. Yeah. And this is when that the tie in began to

the murders in nineteen eleven. In nineteen twelve, retired detective named John D'Antonio speculated that they might be related to the same thing because of similarities in the attacks. Um and then he wanted he would speculate even further. I

think this is just kind of silliness here. But he described he basically tried to profile the killer as an individual with dual personalities who killed without motive and basically just had two personalities when he slipped into his killer mode, you know, his other personality maybe even wasn't aware of it. And there's no reason, there's no sport any of that.

That sounds like sensationalization right there. To me. Yeah, but I'm not trying to detract from this, and I know that sometimes we fall into that, but this just sounds like I'm making a statement to the news to generate

awareness and I'm not buying that. Yeah, So I almost wonder if it was like a ploy to like convince the murderer to come forward, because if you heard that, yeah, like if you had heard but like, oh, yeah, we think it's this person, and like we don't really blame him because like we think it's just like dual personnelity can't control it. He doesn't even know he's doing it. And you're like, oh, well, I have been killing people,

should them? I can't control sir. It could be that, you know, that might actually be a worthwhile tactic in a situation like this, too, make statements that you know aren't true, and on the because you know the killer is almost certainly reading the papers, and he might be attempted to try to contact you. It's at the record straight and uh, you know he's not gonna necessarily turn himself in, but even writing a letter might provide a

clue or too. Anyway, let's move on here. I don't want to spend too much more time with the victims. The next ones were and I apologize if you're Italian and this is your last name, and I mispronounced Charles Court to Miglia, Miglia Court to Biglia, and Rosie and Mary Court to Meiglia. So a guy, his wife, Rosie, and their daughter Mary. He lived in Gretna, which is just across the river from New Orleans, so it's really really pretty much part of New Orleans. March tenth nine.

Noticed a big gap there too, between August tenth and March tenth. There's quite a few months. Yeah, I'm not sure. I know, he might have been off murdering people elsewhere, or he could have been maybe in jail. Maybe the little stint in jail hard to say. So. Screams were heard coming from their house. A guy named Orlando Giorgiano, yeah, one across the street just to to investigate the screams. When he got in there, he knows that Charles and his wife Rosie and there a daughter Mary had all

been attacked. Rosie was alive with the hair with the head wound, but her daughter was dead and Charles was laying on the floor bleeding. They were rushed to the hospital and they both had skull fractures, and as in previous incidents, nothing was stolen from the house. A panel on the back door had been chiseled away and a bloody access found in the back porch at the home. Charles was released in a couple of days and he survived, and then Rosie stayed in men under medical care because

she was more seriously injured. When she walked up, she claimed that the guy that rush to the scene, Orlando Jordando, He and his son were supposedly responsible for the attacks. Orlando was sixty nine years old and it was thought that he was too probably too old and frail to have actually done this, but his son was a lot younger and was six ft tall and wagh two hundred pounds, so you know he possibly could have done it, but Charles Courtmiglia said that his wife's claims were wrong and

so and she had been bashed in the head. Well yeah, and again the same thing. You've been wailed in the head. Yeah yeah, I mean, yeah, head traumas can really can really do a number one. It really screws up your term memory. Oh yeah. Yeah. Also, you know, given that she saw him right after the attack, right, you know, I think that she misunderstood the situation. Yeah, that you could think, yeah, so you associate the attack and a person, and your brain is just like that person was there,

so I think it. Yeah. So I don't know what, if any other evidence was available, but they were arrested, they were tried, and they were found guilty. Frank the younger the younger one was sentenced to hang and his father was sentenced to life in prison. And about a year later, Rosie retracted her statement her husband divorce her because he was like, no, that's not true, and then yeah, and then she kept saying yeah, that's true, and he

was like, you're such a liar. I haven't Yeah. I I don't know if that was the actual reason for it. That might have been part of the reason I don't. I know, he did divorce her. But I also think, and this is very symptomatic situations like this, is that their their child who was an infant, has been killed, and that does not do good things for a relationship, and it's usually the catalyst for things not continuing to work.

And so it could have been very well. Then it wasn't his issue with her claims of the guilt of this man, but just they could wouldn't reconcile what had happened, and that's also a reason for why they would have split. Yeah, So anyway, whatever there is, I don't know, and I don't know what happened to her. He would think that if she had made false accusations like that, she could be arrested and jailed herself. But also I mean I think that, Yeah, there's there's the sympathetic aspect there for

you know, concost mother who lost child. I mean, I can see why they wouldn't go after her, but I don't see why they went after these other two gentlemen either. Yeah, well they had to arrest somebody, No they didn't. So about about three days after this incident, the accpent sat down and penned that famous letter, the one from Hell March stated March thirteenth, A steam mortal. They have never caught me, and they never will. They have never seen me before. I am invisible, even as each of the

surrounds your earth. I am not a human being, but a spirit and a demon from the Hoddest. Tell I am what you are, Lenians, and your foolis police called the axe Man. When I see fit, I shall come and claim O they're victims. I alone know whom they shall be. I shall lead no clue except my bloody acts be smeared with blood and brains of he whom I have sent below to keep me company. Guys, let me know when you're done to listening to this thing. We don't have to read that on the entire thing.

How much more we got. That's only the second paragraph. Yeah, let me skip a little bit here. Um. Undoubtedly your Lenians think of me as a most horrible murderer, which I am. But I could be much worse if I wanted to. If I wish, I could pay a visit to your city every night at will, I could slay thousands of your best citizens. For I am in a close relationship with the angel of death. Alright, we can stop. Yeah, that's just yeah, not a nutter. Yeah, okay, real quickly though,

I knew he wouldn't see. Yeah, so I'll skip me a little bit. In my infinite mercery. I'm gonna make a little proposition to you people here. It is I'm very fond of jazz music, and I swear by all the devils in the n ether, by all the devils in the nether regions, that every person shall be spared in whose home a jazz band is in full swing at the time I have just mentioned. If everyone has a jazz band going well, then so much the better

for you people. One thing is certain, and that is that some of your people who did not jazz on Tuesday night, if there be any, we'll get the ax. Okay, So that's there's more about. Just go out and read it. Yeah, that's a great letter, very well done. Yeah, there's got one weird, outstanding like paragraph. Basically the rest of it is like kind of good. It's kind of like perfect ax murdering. It's this kind of sinister in it urban and in a little crazy, but like that's what you

want from your ax murder. You don't want your ox murder to be like a totally normal Joe, Joe, what do we what do we got next? Yeah? Okay, so a little bit of time goes by August. This is actually heat the that one occurred exactly a year before this. Interesting. I don't know if I never noticed that, but there's

a little symmetry there. Yeah, there is. So a guy named Steve Boca, another grocer, another Italian, of course, they had an apartment above or next to his store, and he was attacked as he slept by somebody with an ax. He awoke, found a dark figure looming over his bed, got whacked but didn't get killed. His head had been sort of cracked open. He went to his neighbor's home,

where he collapsed, but he survived. And they found once again that a pamela on the back door had been chiseled out, and that in this particular case, he didn't say anything about whether he had left the axe behind or not, so he couldn't remember anything of any of the details of the attack. Really. Our next victim Sarah Laman. She was attacked on September three, nine. They she lived alone, She was nineteen years old, and the neighbors seems odd

for the time, but it is. Yeah, but and without family. Yeah, but apparently her neighbors there, Her neighbors kept an eye on her, and they kept they would come back and check on her, and that she wasn't answering the door. So they wound up breaking in and they found her unconscious out our bed, severe head injury and has some teeth broken out. The intruder apparently it entered through an open window and hit her with a blond object. Bloody axe was discovered on the front lawn, and so it

was attributed to the axe man. She again, like the previous guy, recovered but couldn't recall any details about the attack. Okay, next, and this is our last victim. Mike Peppertoni was attacked October n his wife and I'm not really sure if they were sleeping in the same bed or what it was.

It's not rare, you know, for times like these for people to not be sleeping in the same bed or the same room, or for proper reasons of moral standing, or maybe because somebody snores, or maybe you know, well, no that that is a kind of a common thing. And actually it's been proven that it's actually good for some people to sleep in separate beds. But I'm just trying to determine is this a it's the nineties fifties husband whife sleep in different beds kind of theory, or

she was just sleeping somewhere else. That's what I understand. It sounds that she was sleeping in a different room. Yeah, there's there's the social stigma of sleeping in separate rooms didn't really come about until like the sixties. Well, you know, I watched Leave It to Beaver as a kid, so I understand that that's the way it was supposed to have always been. You're really destroying a lot of my preconceptions of how life is supposed to be. Yeah, I I didn't have to buy that extra bed from my

house anyway, Joe. But you know, as you mentioned, like a bigger beds of luxury. So like, if you if there's any kind of sleep, you know, when you're sleeping in a queen bed with somebody, right, you're like, okay, well that's mildly annoying. But if you're like trying to sleep on a twin mattress with somebody else, you're like, nope, nope, not tonight. No. Yeah, So anyway, you know. It's so I'm assuming that from what I've heard about this, that

they were in separate rooms. She hears him, she hears noise, and she gets to his bedroom and a large axe wielding man is comes out fleeing the scene and he'd been struck in the head that was covered with blood. There was spatter all over the room, all over the walls. Mrs Peppertoni was not able to really describe the characteristics of the killer, and her description was just downright vague. Uh, And there's a reason to suspect that maybe she didn't

tell the police everything. Yeah. And and also, by the way, this is the one, this is the one where another version of this, he was not beating to death or chopped with an axe. He was beating to death with a with an eighteen inch long pipe that had a big nut on the on one end of it. Yeah. Yeah, entirely possible. Again, this weird m O issue that I talked about earlier that bothers me about this story. Yeah, maybe he didn't have an ax laying around. Maybe he

just had a big old piece of pipe laying around. Yeah. So anyway, I also want to like point out that for somebody who's like a quote unquote serial killer didn't really kill how many people he was the majority of his victims survived. Yeah, he was a kind of incompetent, he didn't he actually didn't kill everybody. So if killing

was the intention, right, incompetent would be the word. If killing was not the intention, then fairly successful except for a couple of screw ups, I guess, I mean to be fair though, like that first one doesn't is actually like the least like the m O right, he like slipped their throats, killing them and then bashed their head in with a and the rest of them they were just like attacked their bash over the head a bunch of times and either they died from it or they didn't.

But so that's odd to me. But yeah, you know, it might be that a lot of these people didn't die because he didn't really intend to kill him and said that there's maybe as another serial murder cases, Perhaps there was just one person that he wanted to murder for sure. So and then you had to go around and make it look like a random, unconnected string of syria like that just before. I just think that is

obscene because there's just so much work involved that. Yeah, I'm just gonna duck it and try and avoid the heat and the coppers and see if I can get away with it. Yeah, there's that too, I mean because a million people have done it and gone away with it that way. Oh yeah, so that's just that's just a long game, which I don't I don't think is really the way this would go. True. There is a pretty short list of suspects. Actually there's only really two.

So yeah, this is again because Steve's going to hate this, I think, right last week when we were like, well there's two suspects, Well did you you've included in the list when I sent you, right, Jake Bird, Yeah, okay, I actually had to send him a suspect because this frustrated me so much. I found a suspect. He has made one up totally. Yeah, no, I had. I had to keep digging business difficult to find suspects in this story because I mean, again, we're talking the late nineteen

The record keeping is not an efficient process. No one was like backing up their hard drives or anything. Literal card catalog yeah and handwritten notes in a vault. And oops, the police station burned down, so that it's very frustrating. That's that's what I sent him. A suspect. But we're not gonna We're not gonna go there. We're gonna start with your first one. Like the first one better well the first one, yeah, I think actually is a is a better suspect. So this guy's name was Joseph mom Free.

I've seen his name spelled so many different ways. Yeah, and mom Free free man for Mumford and son. Somebody call yeah, somebody called the Leon j Manfree um. So this guy was shot to death in Los Angeles again at Counts Varry. This is again, like so many of our stories, it's gotten so garbled over the years. It was shot to death in either December nineteen nineteen or December ninety or December, but definitely December, Yeah, definitely December,

definitely in Los Angeles. A guy named Richard Warner did a lot of research on the mob in Los Angeles and New Orleans, and he's kind of recast his story as mafia warfare rather than some sort of demonic serial killer, and which might explain all the Italians of all to the story. Joseph Monfrey was also known in New Orleans as frank quote Doc unquote Mumfree and so that was probably his real name. He was involved apparently with the mob.

He uh, he got involved in murders, extortions, bombings, kidnappings, He did all kinds of good stuff. He were okay, he looked relocated to l A in late nineteen nineteen. So if he was the killer, that was explaining why you're stopped because he was later joined Yeah, yeah, and I'm not. And this is a lot of a lot of this in this interesting information I'm about to unload

on you all. Is I want to give a little credit here this crime writer named Michael Newton who did a lot of research and wrote a bunch of stuff on this. And also again that other guy, Richard what's his face, Richard Warner. Richard Warner pieced together most of this. Ye, Richard Warrener pieced together most of this. So apparently Mumprey moved to l A opened a drug store. And because I didn't mention he was called Doc. That was his nickname because he was actually a pharmacist by trade, and

so that's explains the nickname. So he opens a drug store and I don't know if that was a prod or maybe he was just wanted to get out of get out of his life of crime. I'm not sure. He was joined in Los Angeles by an associate from New Orleans and below Albano Albano opened an Italian grocery. So I guess what he got He wind up dying apparently, Yeah, he des Italian groceries. Just remind me never to open, especially when Doc Mum frees around. Yeah, Albano Albano, after

a year or two, disappeared. His wife accused mum Free of murdering him. Oh yeah, yeah, this this is where he gets harry. This is where it gets a little strange. So a few months after the disappearance, he reported this to the police. The police basically did nothing, or maybe they'd investigated but really couldn't come up with anything. Mumfree went to the widow's house, she threatened, He threatened her and demanded money, and she shot him and standing woman

of the community. Her name was Esther Albano. She was also the widow of Mike Pepperoni. Yeah he's he's the first victim. He's the last one, okay, Yeah, apparently the one, the one who had like a bunch of kids and couldn't, and he just was like, I don't know who murdered my husband, right, yeah, well apparently, yeah, apparently she was. She was out in l a and she met Angelo Angelo Albano, and they got they woked up getting married, and then of course he gets apparently disappeared and murdered.

And so she told the police that mon Prey actually killed two of her husbands. Because of this, now she's accusing him, even though she said at the time that Mike PEPPTONI was killed, that she didn't she didn't know, I gave very vague descriptions. Now she seemed sure that mont pretty actually was a killer. So it could be well, it could be I mean, well, anyway she and her husband had been involved with the mafia, then obviously you don't you don't tell the cops anything, so that unless

you want to die. Yeah, But of course if that was the case, and I'm not sure why she's talking to the police at this point in time either, well, I mean, I guess there's also the argument to be made, right that, like maybe she was going for Albano anyways, right, like she wanted to be with him, and this is like the lady version of this right, Like she wanted to be with Albano, and so Albano was like, hey, Murphy,

you're pretty good at this killing thing. Why don't you killed my lady's husband on the side like that, Like that is a good theory. I like that. I mean, you know, hey, you've been killing all these people who are attacking all these people. Why don't you like do me a favor? You know, it would explain why she ended up with a guy who was associated with somebody who might have killed her husband. Okay, but but I just have to say that that would be the weirdest

pillow talk ever for sure. So I've totally been hacking people up with hatchets or axes and lead pipes and straight razors and you're the best and I want to be with you ever oh so great? No, no, no, it goes different than that. The pillow talk is like, man, I really love you when I want to be with you, but my husband's in the way. You know, somebody maybe chop him up. Yeah, because you know you're part of the mafia. So like, do you think you know somebody?

And yeah, I know a guy. Yeah, I'll see if I can get him to do it. Yeah, that it wouldn't have been Alipino, that it would have sure, well, you know, yeah, if movies have taught me anything, it's that that very often happened. Yeah, guys like Jack Nicholson and Jessica what's your name? Or yeah. So uh So, anyway, he shot or she shot Momprey to death. She claimed self defense, but she was arrested, tried, and convicted for it. Anyhow, she was sentced to ten years and didn't do all

that time. I think she only did two or three years. A man named a crime writer I just mentioned him actually a few minutes ago, Michael Newton. She searched or he searched the police and court records in Los Angeles and he couldn't find anybody named mom Pree being killed and that at that time. So he was kind of

trying to debunk this whole thing. But Richard Warner, the other guy, did actually do a search and he found a death certificate for Leon J. Manfree issued by Los Angeles County in one or wherever I can't remember now, but well the dates were mixed up. We don't have a solid date. So he did find that. So and that's this guy let's let's let's not forget his name was Frank quote unquote Doc mom Free or Joseph mom Free or god knows what. He might have had a

lot of aliases. Maybe maybe Leon Mumfree was his actual real name. I don't know, but maybe that's the fake idea that they found on him when they found his corpse. I'm not sure. Or the one person who came to I d M it was like, oh, yeah, that's Leon. Yeah. So so anyway, that's that's our suspect. He may or may not be the guy nobody else. He seems to be everybody else's favorite too, okay. Suspect number two Jake Bird. So Jake Bird was a transient and he moved all

around the country. He took jobs working at a labor working on railroads. Has a quote unquote candy dancwer, which I which is a strange sounding thing, but apparently gandy dancers are the guys that lay the tracks and maintained the tracks. So he did a little work on railroads doing that kind of stuff. That's a weird phrase. Yeah, I don't know why. I don't understand it, but I'll just let it go. It's pretty random. Right, know that

he was born and raised and guess where Louisiana. Yeah, born December fourteenth, nineteen o one, which would have made him seventeen at the time of the first murder, assuming at the nineteen eleven nineteen twelve stuff. And I is not connected And I can't believe he's murdering people at ten years old. Yeah, Yeah, that's a disturbed individual if that's the case. Yeah, I don't I don't buy that. Yeah,

Jake Bird was in and out of jailist whole life. Reportedly, he served over his lifetime a total thirty one years. And how old was he when he died? He was Yeah, I know, he spent a lot of time in jail. Holy crap. And that's actually a good thing because I mean, if he was as prolific a killer as we are led to believe, then imagine how many more corpses he would have left. Yeah. So he was arrested October thirtieth seven, and good old Tacoma, Washington, one of my favorite towns

to drive through. Yeah, he asked murdered two women. It was a lady. It was back murder ladies and gentlemen picked up he as murdered him with an ax that he found on their property. He was it was a woman and her seventeen year old daughter, and uh, yeah, he went inside and grabbed an axe from the woodshed outside. Apparently went inside and it was apparently port into some accounts that I read, trying to rape the mother and

then she resisted. He started chopping with the acts of daughter comes in and tries to interrupts, and so she gets hacked, and then he flees and police see him fleeing the scene because the neighbors had called the police because they heard all these screams. And the police chase him and they catch him, and uh, he claimed He claimed first that he hadn't he didn't know what they were talking about, but he had. He had like blood and gray matter all over his clothes. Don't know, I

don't know what you're talking about, officer is. Yeah, Yeah, I was just totally bleeding myself. Yeah. And the judicial system was a little less sclerotic back in those days. It moved pretty quick. He was arrested in October and he was tried in November, and the trial lasted, I believe two and a half days, and the jury deliberate. I believe thirty five minutes. Yeah, so this is an episode of law and Order right now. So after he was convicted and he was sent to death row, he

was in Walla Walla State Penitentiary. He asked for clemency. Basically he wanted them to put off his date of death. And his bargaining ship was he promised to convest to forty four other murders. He said he had knowledge he had committed forty four other murder years part or taken part into. Yeah, this guy was a fairly successful serial killer. I mean for having spent thirty one years of his life in jail. So where all is he is? He saying that he he did all this killing because obviously

it wasn't just Washington. Yeah, it was all all over the country. Uh, they were actually able to solve I think eleven or twelve crimes based on his confessions not and some of the other ones. They didn't believe him, but they found they were murders in Illinois, Colorado, Kentucky, Neraska, Kansas, South Dakota, Ohio, Florida, Texas, Wisconsin, and of course Washington were Kakomba is situated. Uh, he didn't confess to anything

in New Orleans. He was put to death July, so that would have made him what forty seven years old, forty eight years old. Yeah. So the reason to think he might have been the killing Well, he liked, he liked the whole acts thing. Apparently he killed. He claimed have killed a lot of people using acts. Uh. And like the axe Man, he used an axe or an hatchet, a hatchet found at the victims homes. And he's sneaky looking. I've seen pictures of him. That's incredible reason I think shifty. Yeah, Okay,

the reasons I don't think he's a killer nothing. In the case of the axe Man, he didn't take anything from the victims homes. He wasn't there to rob them. And in the case of Jake Bird, it seemed to me like the guy probably could have used money. He was a transient taking odd jobs and stuff. Yeah. If you see a bunch of stuff laying around this valuable. If you see some cash, you're gonna take it, right. Yeah, that's one reason I don't think he was the ax Man.

Another reason is he did confess and gave details about a lot of murders, but he never confessed to anything in New Orleans seems like, yeah, even though there are people who think that he was indeed the infamous ax man of New Orleans, now he didn't really volunteer to take credit for those Why wouldn't he, Oh, listen, you know, Okay, again, this is trying to step into the mind of somebody that I've never met a hundred years ago. But maybe

he has somebody in that area that he's protecting. In other words, you know, he might have had family that were involved in some of these things that he did, or that helped cover it up, and he doesn't want to spill the beans on him. I mean, I mean, this is complete and total, just made up. But I'm just I'm just trying to think, because if he is that prolific and he's from that area, why wouldn't he start there, you know what I'm saying, in a place

to practice your craft. Yeah, people don't come upon just killing people at thirty. They you know, when they have this kind of serial compulsion, These things, these behaviors, these things start out early. So it seems like he would have been doing it where he lived. Now. I don't know, Joe, I never all when I read the information on Jake Bird, but do you know how old was he when he left New Orleans? Do you know? Well he was he was actually born and raised in rural Louisiana, so I

don't I'm not well in Louisia, Louisiana. He left when he was nineteen, okay, so he would have been in the area, which I mean, this is again I'm just making is the last official attack and then he leaves the area. Course, this is all everything about this guy that was was you know, like his birth, his date of birth, where he was born, when he left rural Louisiana to travel the country. It was all basically what he told the cops, so he could have been lying

about all too um. And then I also and my biggest problem is like why would you admit to some but not all of the murders that especially if they were you know, kind of this prolific sort of like beginning period where like there's a lot of I guess kind of bargaining material there particularly to be able to say like, hey, if you stand my life, I'll admit

to being the New Orleans as murderer. I mean, yeah, you know, well, And the thing about it is is the act that the New Orleans acts murders were the most notorious ones, ones that got the most publicity. You think that he would be in a sense, it's it's kind of twisted, but you think he would be proudest of that accomplishment and want to tell I want to tell the world about it. I was the ax man. I put that city in fear. Yeah, everybody lived in

terror of me. Of course until they listened to jazz music. Yeah, listen to jazz music, you'll be fine. Yeah. So anyway, another mystery solved. I I really do buy. I think the idea that this wasn't actually just a serial killer, but was really just mob warfare, and that a lot of these people were involved. It is it is convenient because a lot of them were a talent a native Italians. This is one of those if not necessarily involved in this is an attack because you didn't pay your protection

money kind of situation which is to have been practiced. Yeah, I mean I would explain why they lived right then. It was really punishment, not like actual attack on their lives. You know, if they were all shopkeepers that lived in their shops, it could be that they were like supposed to be smuggling something or supposed to be a front, or you know, just simply that not paying their dues. I mean, there's definitely a lot of good kinds of mobs thing. Yeah, it could have been that kind of thing.

It could have been warfare. Somebody was trying to say that rival gang is moving in and he's trying to take over, you know, so he starts killing soldiers and stuff like that. Or you didn't you didn't take my offer to be brought in, and I'm gonna I'm gonna attack you and kill you. So the next I go to I say, hey, so that that other shopkeeper he didn't take my offer, and you saw what happened to him.

And then on top of that, I still do believe that probably a few of the as are as you say, piggybacking, you know, just opportunism to ideat time to sell that score. Yeah, okay, so another mystery solved. You know what, more than like ever, I've kind of actually, you know, what I gotta say is that from everything that we read online and anybody who has ever done any investigation in this, Joe has actually brought up some cellular points that people don't always

bring up. So I think that we've actually at least not shed some light where maybe it's not been done where most people focus on the letter and everything's up. The letter was cool, but I'm not even sure that we did awesome was written by that We did fantastic. We totally solved it, now, we did. We did obviously, So you probably wanted to know folks are good listeners. You probably want to know where to send the money. Well yeah, no, actually, uh, you probably want to know

where to find this. But of course you've already found this. But maybe you found us at one place, but you don't know about the other places to go find us. So let's start from the top. Taking sideways podcast dot Com our web page, you will find all kinds of good stuff out there links to you can download our show and all that stuff. Uh. You can also find us on iTunes, and if you find us on iTunes, please take the time to stop give us a rating

and give us a review. We'd really appreciate it. If you don't have time to go download us, and you can stream us on Stitcher. And by the way, everybody knows that we drop our shows on Thursdays Thursday mornings, which I were missed to say that we haven't mentioned before, but for our friends who are in Australia that we know we're downloading, I guess that's Friday afternoons. Sorry, guys, totally discovered that the other day by accident realized I

screwed up what we said that. Also, we're on Facebook, so definitely find us on Facebook and friend us and comment and post stuff to our site or whatever from tourt what do they call it, Theseday's timeline? How does it? How does the Facebook thing work? I don't know. How does it work? I don't know. You can like us, and you can join the group, and you can join the group is actually having some there has been people are continually joining the group and it's actually making some

fun interactions and discussions. So I'm really I actually enjoyed the group more than the page, to be honest. Last of af you'd like to communicate with us, You don't have our phone number and you never will, but you can have maybe some of you will, I don't know, but you can email us at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And believe me, you don't always necessarily get a reply back or get your email right over the show, but we do read each and everyone to

be emails. Actually, everybody gets reply back everybody every email that we get that is not somebody that says dear serves and gentlemen. I am the account holder from you know those guys. Those guys can put in the spamp to everybody. Yeah, I know you don't because you're not a part of this. I'm a slacker. I checked the email account occasionally, but I'm not as assiduous about it as you guys. Yeah, it's it's that holy pops into

my phone thing, don't we have. I think we We've gotten a bunch of emails, and there was one we do there was one that you wanted to read it? Yeah, yeah, no, And I wanted to say, I think you touched on this a little bit, Joe, as we this week alone, and of course we pre record the shows, so the week that we're recording, we got a bunch of email traffic. And everything was great for everybody who sent us an email with suggestions and and kudos and accolades and all that.

Appreciate that. But there's one that I really really enjoyed, and that's what I wanted read away. This is from Nicole and Nicole says, Hi, guys and girly. Yeah, I recently discovered your podcast while searching for ones about carnex stones and have had a healthy addiction ever since. Healthy is a bad choice of work. It's the best kind of ads is a healthier addiction, that's say smack. Can

we go ahead? All right? Thank you? You guys do your homework often intelligently, feasible theories, and infuse it with a lot of humor. Today alone, I've busted out laughing twice while catching up some of your older episodes. I commute about seventy miles to work, and yeah, it's a huge commute. I wind about my commute. I commute about seventy miles to work, and listening to you guys really

helps me past the time. I also implicitly surprised to know that you're from Portland, Oregon, which is obviously where we are, as I was born and raised in the Limb Valley, which prebody who doesn't know the Portland area where in Oregon, which Portland is at the north tip in the will Lambtte Valley is south of US, so Eugene or Eugene or Salem, Mish is a big city for those Simpsons fans Springfield. They finally even by the way, they finally revealed that s indeed Springfield, Oregon is setting.

Of course it is because Mac grantings from Portland. It doesn't matter, and they were quite about that for years. Yeah, but you know. Nicole then goes on to suggest a story first look into, which called freaking hilarious. And I have an idea on how to work that in somewhere the one as always not going to reveal that to anybody, including you two. You so but no, thank you Nicole for the email. And uh, that is a terrible commute, and I'm happy that we're at least making it a

little more better better for you. And I hope you find either a job that's closer to home or a home that's closer to job. Go world, I don't. I hope she can stop listening to us. Yeah that's a good point. Oh no, please stay at that job, Nicole, I love it. Don't ever leave better exactly better? Kay, Thanks very much for the email, Nicole, and uh for thinking sideways. I would like to say goodbye goodnight, everybody, goodnight,

and want to say goodbye. I don't mean forever. I just mean for this week.