Thinking Sideways: The London Torso Murders

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brought to you by The Snowman. See it only in theaters on October. It's presented by Universal Pictures. It's a new film based on its terrifying bestseller. I don't like scary movies, but this movie looks amazing. I cannot tell you. I don't want to give you any spoilers or anything like that. But if you've read the book, you know it's super, super scary, So go see it in theaters October, I think as looking. Hi there, welcome to another episode

of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, as always, by Devin and Steve, and we are going to talk about another really fascinating little mystery. Uh. This is a series of really grewsome serial killings that took place in London in the eighties. And I'm not talking about Jack the Ripper did that already, Yeah, we did that already. This is this guy is actually

worse than Jack, I believe it or not. And the reason I'm doing this is well, of course this is October and this is a Halloween month, as you know, and so we decided we're going to talk about mysteries that are gory, creepy or scarier Queen style mysteries absolutely because Halloween, right, Yeah, lean into our true time crime nature exactly. I want to give a shout out first to our listener, Mary, who I think suggested this back

in Mars. I'm not sure, but she said that we should do a story about the Torso and the Thames. I did a little checking on the interwebs. And there's another more recent one, like in two thousand and one they found the child's torso floating in the Thames River, and it was a big story in the US. That wasn't the one she was suggested, you'd rather talk about this one than not. No, it is a better one, yeah, so Mary, I think you suggested it, so thanks. Yeah.

And also first a warning, this is a very gruesome tale. Would you guys not agree? Yeah? Yeah, some listeners may find it disturbing, because well it is disturbing, so you listener discretion, and if you decide to turn off your iPod not listen, we won't take any of less of you, and we won't make fun of you. So let's get on with us. Not that they turned it off, Yeah, okay, okay. What we're talking about is the London Torso murders of

the late eighteen eighties. These are also known as the Thames Torso murders and more less often as the embankment murders that take place right around the time that Jack the Ripper was making a name for himself. And as I said before, in my opinion, they were kind of more heinous than Jack the Ripper's work. But for one some reason or another, Jack the Ripper is a household name, and nobody's heard of the Torso murderer. Why why Well, I have series about that. I'll talk about that a

little later, I guess. But but you know, there's a lot of Jack had a better publicists, perhaps, yeah, or maybe the press could just only focus on one heinous killer at the time and so they up the coin. Actually that could be so let me get into the murders real quick. There weren't near There weren't quite as many as Jack, so that might have count for some of it. The first murder took place in what's called Rainhom.

It's spelled rayn Ham, and I think it might be Rainhom, but knowing you know your friends, the British is probably pronounced rum, so I'm gonna go with Raynhom. I guess. Our first body was found in eighties seven in Random, which is on the Thames on the eastern outskirts of London, and it's now part of Greater London, But in eighteen eighties seven it was actually a separate town with a

lot of major cities. Nowadays, Yeah, they've absorbed the suburbs, so it might be more appropriate called these murders the Thames Torso murderers, but I don't know. I kind of like to London Towardso murders better. What do you guys think, Well, I don't really care, stick with it. I mean anything that says Torso murders and let's frankly, let's let's you know that's standard there on end. Right. Well, so they

found a body. What they found was a tors of a body which was wrapped in a bundle as found in the river. I was just gonna ask Joe, I you what it was wrapped in? No, I don't actually, I mean some of them they actually said, like that one that was like wrapped in black cloth, you know. But yeah, well, and that's that's why I was asking, because suddenly I realized I can't remember what this particular one was wrapped in, just cloth of some sort, but

continue on, sir. Yeah. And then over the next several weeks, other body parts kept showing up, and the police just kept on collecting them, and eventually they were able to piece together on almost complete body. The other things missing were the head and the uppard chest, so like the shoulder area. Yeah, naturally they were not able to determine the cause of death. I mean, jeez, maybe it was

being like sliced up in Yeah, I don't know. There were no actual signs of violence apart from being chopped up. I'm sorry, chopped a body. There's some signs of violence right there. There is kind of that. Yeah, And of course the victim was never identified because the head never turned end up, and of course they didn't have DNA or fingerprinting back. Yeah, and I've been soaking in the river for a while. That probably didn't help things too much.

I don't know of any attempts to make that were made to length the body to missing person reports, because I don't even know what they had in terms of missing person reports in those days in London, because it was even that in those days a huge, sprawling city with it had been going through a huge period of urbanization. A lot of people were flooding from the countryside into London and a lot of other major European cities at that time, and a lot of them were also shipping

out for other kind of work. Absolutely, so it was so somebody advantaged so that it didn't necessarily mean anything. I mean great times if you're a serial killer. I mean like that's why there are two of them, yeah, or three or who knows. So obviously this person was never identified, It didn't really go anywhere. It didn't become a huge story until a little over a year later

when the second Torso was discovered. And this happened in the White Hall and this happened that the body was discovered, or the tour so was discovered or no, excuse me, the arm was discovered September eleven. You know that they ever forget? Yeah right, arm and a shoulder were found on the shore of the Thames in central London. This is in the Pimblico neighborhood, which I'm sure you will know, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, for our London, for our our London listeners.

I'm not going to do this every time, but between Victoria railway station and the Thames west of Vauxhall Bridge, there wasn't much to be done with the arms since, as I said, already a finger putting in DNA didn't exist. I assume they either tossed it or maybe they kept it on ice for a while. They had to have kept it somewhere based on what happened afterwards. Yeah, yeah, you would think that. I assume they didn't just pitch it.

A police surgeon named Thomas Bond did take note of it, which came in handy about three weeks later when the tours so that went with the arms showed up, which it did, and this this new tour so that was found in the seller. This is a funny part. Well some people find a little ironic. Anyway, It was found in the seller of a new bill thing that was being built by the Metropolitan Police Service, but we also

know as Scotland Yard. Yeah. Yeah. They had outgrown their old headquarters and so they were constructing a new headquarters building on what's called the Victoria Embankment. I don't have an address. You can find the coordinates if you guys are interested. You want the latitude and longitude. Yeah. Yeah.

The building is still there, apparently, it's called the Norman Shaw North Building and Scotland Yard has long since moved out, although apparently they have plans to move back into the neighborhood. They're going to move back into the building next door sometime soon. Yeah. Apparently the Yaraties like to move around a lot. Yeah, yeah, well, they get I think they get tired of people walking into report crimes and stuff like that, so every now again they just pack up

and moved. Yeah, I know, so they're they're they're moving around. But the tourist that was found in a vault in the cellar, I'm not sure exactly how much construction have been done the building as far as I know, it's far from complete, but they had at least done the seller, and in the seller was a vault and they founded this torso in that vault on October two. Apparently nobody had been in the vault for about three days, but somebody had been in it three days before, and there

were no corpses or body parts at that time. Are you sure about the Okay? I want to ask, because I've seen this too, and I've seen it a couple of different ways, is how far the construction had actually gotten Because it is possible to, you know, make a basement and pour the walls and have an area that's going to be the vault, but it's still open on the top and people could chuck stuff in. So that's why I'm asking, do we have any sense of how

complete it is? Because, like the reading is they chucked it over the fence and it went in, and like, it makes me wonder, It's hard to say. I don't know. I mean, if they if they had actually gone along and actually roofing over the whole thing. I sort of got the impression from reading it that the killer would have had to actually enter the vault to leave the body there. But I'm not a hunder percent sure about that. Okay.

Other way, it's pretty cheeky. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So our body or excuse me, our torso was wrapped in cloth, tied up with the string, and our police surgeon Thomas Bond, remember him, He remembered the arm of the shoulder and realized that the arm of the torso were a match. I'm having a hard time picturing the way that these torso torsos are cut up. Was it consistent every time they were bisected? It sounds like it sounds like it

wasn't totally consistent. Now, okay, so on this one, it was what the cut was like around the shoulder, just the shoulder, yeah, I think that, like, yeah, the shoulder joint and stuff. Yeah, and then legs, you know, right at the hips and then and then maybe chopping at some of them were like chopped in the quarters for this one. Okay, well, and and let's talk about this now, because there is stuff out there where people will say they will throw around the terms of surgical skill or

knowledge of you know, dissection, like as a butcher. They make it out as if every cut was clean, But when you read certain sites, they actually kind of clarify there are certain joints that you simply can't just cleanly cut into. Like let's say, cutting a leg from the hip. You kind of gotta get in there to pry the hip bone and the is the top on the femur, the femur out of the socket. You know, you really kind of gotta get in and reef stuff apart. So

it's not all smooth, beautiful cuts. There are times where it's like, you know, there's somebody's cutting it and hacking it and reefing on it, but they didn't take a saw and cut parts of I will say, though, the example I'll use is like when Booth tries to when he because he knows how to do this really well, like cuts up a chicken, right, versus when I try to cut up a chicken. Right. Yeah, there are joints

that you got to get in there. But there's a talent to getting into that joint versus like me where I'm just like gett. It's just like hack and hack and hack, and you can see it kind of in the bones and the rest of everything where it's just like get and then you like finally tear it off, you know what I mean. Like, so I wonder if

that's kind of what they're referring to. Is like, even if it's not like pretty, it's still Yeah, it's like somebody just took a saw to it through that portion of the I'm gonna start cutting out my chickens anyway sauce, so okay, but never like a chicken is the same again. But I yeah, I guess I just keep having a hard time because when you say, you know, like upper chest, it's like, well, is that from the waist up? Is

that from the like know what? Yeah? Like that first body, I'm assuming it's like just under the like from like the nipple area. Yeah, I'm assuming, like like from the from the top off of the armpits across a straight line. That's a weird place to cut up a body. Yeah it is, Yeah, because you you know, on either end

of the rib cage. You would think you would drop the arms off and not do that, but apparently, you know, you cut the head off, keep the clavigal through the rib cage, all the ribs right, and then sorry, sorry, I just it helps me to be able to picture these things a little bit or as gruesome as it is. But unfortunately, but we don't know, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on the point of probably fortunately, there are no photographs surviving of the body. I know the bodies were photographed

and they're reassembled state. Yeah, grizzly as hell, but yeah, okay, so sorry I interrupted you. When we were talking about the surgeon foul. He remembered that the arm had existed, and he remembered that, and so they made that connection. They figured, okay, we've got a sicko on her hands here.

And then and then an enterprising newspaper reporter whose name is lost to the ages apparently, but he got himself a dog and starting out at the at at the new Police building, sniffed around the neighborhood and they managed to find a severed leg, left leg, buried not too far from the New Scotland Yard building. Okay, so this is weird because this is the only one that we know of it was actually buried. Yeah, I know, and so,

and I don't know why that is. You know, it might have been if it was like on a construction set or something. It just got accidentally buried. Because it sounds like our killer was, you know, not asin tossing parts as you walk down the streets, kind of like you do when you've got the bucket of chicken wings and you're going on him and then just throw the bone and keep going. Okay, I made a chicken reference, and it was appropriate that that's exactly what he's doing.

He's walking down the street. I don't need this leg. Yeah, the discreet way to disposed of the body, just like nobody's looking to flick, you know, and see people do it with gum all the time, cigarettes whatever. Yeah, okay, we are not inferring the dead women. Yeah, I'm saying it was done yeah, similar to Yeah, so anyway, an interesting way to get rid of a body. I would rather just get rid of in one fell swoop. But maybe this guy was a little constrained. I don't know. Okay, So,

so it's a woman's body. The figure out. Yeah, data Sherman. There was an inquest and I'm not sure if this was before or after the leg had been found, but it was absolutely at the arm of the tour so that was found. The conclusion was it wasn't it was a woman's body, and that she was around four years old, well nourished quote unquote. I don't know what that means.

She was like, you know, obeseir That just meant she was in good health general, wasn't I was going to say, wasn't the like late eighteen hundreds in London kind of a time of Yeah, so the fact that she was just was eating fine, Yeah, it was had a normal probably body, Yeah, that could be exactly be it what else? She was white, she had dark hair um and the body had had been dead about six to eight weeks when it was found, so fairly fresh corps but not

quite as fresh as I won't anyway. The internal organs were all in good shape, exceptable left lung, which had pleurrosy, which is just that's an inflammation of the not easily a life threatening condition. Was is no longer isn't the plerosis is the like actual thing you have plerosis? Well, it's yeah, but it's a swelling of the lining of your lungs, so it causes shortness of breath. But she only had it one So that's what I'm saying. I don't think it would have been the cause of her death.

Not probably not. Some people have speculated that that that is why she died. I kind of doubt it. I don't think the prosy killed her. Yeah, I think some dude killed her. I was just going to say, though, that it can it totally happen. I think it can't kill, but in this, in this particular instance, I kind of doubt it. Oh, one last thing, the uterus had been removed, so yeah, they determined I don't know how they determined this the victim and not been suffocated to drown. I

suppose that was due to the state of the lung. Yeah. No stab wounds, no bullet holes, no other signs of violence except of course we're being chopped up, except for there was no head and there was no head right, All of these are like, there's no violence, but there's no headset. She could have been shot between the eyes, like you know how her head beat in Yeah, exactly. Um,

what's probably what happened. Um, yeah, who knows. It was determined that the right arm had been severed by somebody with a knowledge of human anatomy, not just a random dude with an axe. There was no word on the left leg, but I'm not again, I'm not sure that they had been found at the time of the inquest or not. They did remark the police. They said that it was sort of a surgical skill kind of thing, but they said that it was not necessarily a surgeon.

This might be a case of kind of covering for your own said, Oh, it could have been a butcher. Two, you know, somebody, somebody skilled in that kind of thing. And this isn't to mean either profession, but I would assume that being a butcher and being a surgeon are pretty similar. I mean, it's just about figuring out how

bodies break down as well. I mean, you know, if if we're talking about somebody totally disassembling a body, right, a butcher and somebody who's trained to do it on a human seems like it would be about the same. I mean, a butcher trains on how to break down bodies of a lot of different kinds of animals and joints are kind of the same within like most species. So I think it's valid. I don't think it's a

covering for their own sort of a thing. I think, in fact, it maybe that a butcher might actually be even better taking a human body apart than acher gets a lot more practice, that's for sure, than a surgeon. Surgeons don't actually disassemble people. They disassembled with the idea is to get them back together. Usually that's the point that is the idea usually hopefully. Yeah, an early re animators what we're talking about here. Yeah, yeah, let's not yea,

remind me not to get any surgery dudes. Yeah, So that was about it. That was kind of a dead end for that body. But yeah, but no problem with third bodies showed up. So and this one showed up June nine, So this guy is like, it's three bodies in about a year, or I could say it could be it could have been a lady killer. Yeah that's what you're saying. Yeah, okay, good point. This new body was found on the south back of the Thames, opposite the Tower of London, so I know where that is. Yeah,

I've been there, We've all been there. Other parts showed up later the left leg and thigh turned up the same day. Two days later in a different place by the way, and then two days later the upper part of the torso was found, and the neck and shoulders and the liver in three different places. The neck, the shoulder, and the livers in three places, that's what you're saying places. Yeah. Then the day after that, the leg and foot were found, and the left leg and foot were found somewhere else,

so the feet were apparently still attached. And then after that the left arm in hand and the lower part of the and the right thigh showed up in three different places. Wow, the whole body, Yeah, I got pretty close. Yeah. And then last of all, the right arm and hand were found on June Towns. So the course of six days, this body was littered up and down the river. Yeah.

And I don't know if he dumped it all at once, you know, That's what I was, just like you actually going out every day and distributing some more parts around town. You know, I don't know what was what was the guy with the purple plastic bag that we talked about. Yeah, yeah, Peter, Yeah, it's kind of like that, you know, going out every day with the plastic bags right as it was a hacked up body, get in a boat, get in the middle of the river, dump it and slowly it makes

its way to show. Yeah, it just did too well. And they, you know, would have probably traveled at different rates because they're different ease and sizes. Yeah, it's just it's also a question of not just travel, but when somebody just happens to stumble upon it and actually notice it. I mean there was a lot of I mean, I'm sure the river was fairly filthy and have a lot

of crap floating in it back in those days. So figurative and literal, yeah, you could easily have have a have a you know, a severed foot just float right past you and you wouldn't even notice it. Yeah. Uh So if you want to look at the interwebs, you can, and you really care about where all these different pieces and parts were found, you can find an information on

the webs. I have it, but I don't want to borry with all these things that really won't mean much to you, so I'm not going to go into that. But back to back to this whole third body that was found. All I could say is just six six sick right, Yeah, I suppose it's possible somebody needed to get rid of a body and the most discrete way

to do it was in pieces. You know, if you're in a crowded city like London, walking down the street with a corpse or even wrapped in the sheet, throwing over your shoulder is kind of like indiscreet, right, So that's not unheard of. The top up a body for that reason, it doesn't look good to the jury. Uh, now, it really doesn't, although there was actually a case in

Portland where the jury actually did. By the story, believe it or not, this guy, and I can't remember his name, he meets the woman in a bar, takes her back to his place. His story, he murders her. His story was that well they were they were making love and all that, and then they had an argument. Things got out of hand. He went up strangling or he didn't really mean to. And then the problem was he didn't have a car, he only had a bicycle. This is Portland,

this is the early sixties. And so he exanguinated her, exaguinated her in his bathroom and then cut her body up and distributed parts all over the place in in in southeast Portland and actually some of them were found like very close by where I live. Actually, yeah, and uh, but then he when he eventually got caught, and he did get caught. He he was unique in that he fled the state. And he was the first person and maybe the only person to ever be number eleven on

the FBI's ten most wanted list. And they caught up with him in California and brought him back and put him on trial, and he told that story to the jury said, hey, you know, I know it looks kind of bad, but really that was just the only way to get rid of the body. I'm not a six psychopath. And the jury actually convicted him, but actually recommended leniency to the judge. Yeah, and so he got out after about ten years. And guess what he did it again surprise,

But okay, that's what cyclists are like. So back to the back to London, away from enough of Portland. In the previous cases, of course, the head was never found the same in this one, but some of the body was identified as somebody named Elizabeth Jackson who was a suspected prostitute from Chelsea. And I don't know how they made the idea she must have maybe had a tattoo

or some sort of distinctive birth mart. If she is a suspected prostitute, then people are gonna know what she looks like unclothed, and she's probably gonna have some not features like you said, there's a prince a scar or whatever. Yeah, I mean yeah, And so somehow they identified her and

she was the only one whoever got identified. Again, the Corners investigation, who included whoever parted out the body had medical knowledge, and they said again at least an experienced busher and butcher, but they didn't think a skill level was at the level of a medical surgeon. Again, it's hard to say, because even a medical surgeon, if he's slicing you open with the intent of fixing you and put patching you back together, he's going to go about

a certain way. If he's cutting you up because he's just gonna like cut your body up, then even a surgeon isn't necessarily going to be as as delicate and finesse well, there's no there's no incentive to be clean and delicate about yeah, And so it could have been a surgeon, and I still believe it could have been. Damn surgeons. Uh. Yeah, the similarity between this body and the previous two was obvious everyone. The surgical technique was identical,

they said. But although in the case it's Elizabeth Jackson. The cause of death was still not determined. But at least by this time they were fairly sure they had a serial killer on their hands. Yeah, yeah, but still no head. But still no heads at all, So one would assume that the head was cause of death, right, Yeah, that's maybe the head removal was cause of death. Yeah, or a blow to the head or a shot to

the head or something. Somehow, it is way more disturbing to me to think that like removal of the head would have been cause of death then like, you know, a bullet to the head or even like a bashing to the head, and then after the person had died, they got caught up. I don't know why that's so much. Yeah, I agree with you. I think they're getting shot between the eyes is better than having your head chopped off, you know, slowly, especially slowly chopped off like you know,

and one of those videos. Okay, next, alright, alright, and we come to our last known murder, which took place in September eighteen eighty nine, a police constable named William Pennett found a torso under a railroad bridge on Pinsion Street in Whitechapel. White Chapel. Yeah that's Hamburger place, right, Yeah,

that's a good point. Uh yeah, Jack's stopping grounds. Um, it was different from the other ones, and that no other body parts showed up, And I don't know if that means that our perpetrator changed his routine app or if he distributed him all around like before, but they just weren't found for random reasons, which is always possible. I mean, it's possible he dumped him all on the river and there was just especially especially strong tide that day.

He wasn't paid, he wasn't checking his tide tables, and they all just got flushed out its out. Maybe he actually did check his tide table this time. Yeah, maybe he did. Yeah yeah yeah. Or maybe they all got eaten by the fishes before somebody found them. I mean, it's really hard to say. And of course, as always, no head was found, no cause of death, and no identification of the body. So to sum it up, we've got four dismembered bodies, which is kind of a short

run for a several killer. But on the other hand, they may have actually been more. I mean there's plenty of you know, if you're a killer, a serial killer. The slums of London must have been the happy hunting grounds when you think about it, because there's so many people you could disappear without a trace, and so there might have been lots of bodies that he that just weren't found. Um. And also there is a possibility that there was another killing, which was in Paris, which was

the Montrouse Torso murder. Have you guys heard of that one? Yeah, And there's not much information about that available really frankly. All it is is that in remember eighteen eighties six, which is a year before, not even a year, like half a year before our first body was discovered, a woman's tours that was found on the steps of the Montrouse church in Paris and uh, missing the head, legs, the right arm, left breast and here we go again, the uterus. So maybe the same guy, I mean, some people,

some people think there might be a connection there. I'm not entirely sure, but you know, perhaps so maybe his career is actually so, maybe he had five deaths. There's another guy at one author named I think his arm Michael Gordon, and wrote a book about this called The Tampas Towards the Murders of Victorian london Um. They also thought that it was possible that a murder in London in nineteen two was related. I'm a little skeptical about that one. That's a pretty that's a long spell, you know,

and so I kind of doubt that one. Thevntreuse one in Paris though that maybe because I mean Paris and London really aren't that far apart. If it's the timeline nicely about what maybe six months or so before the

first London murder. You know. One thing to keep in mind that might have been a motivator for whoever committed this, this Torso murder in France to maybe want to leave France is there was the I'm gonna I know, I'm gonna put your pronunciation that the Sino French wars which were in Asia, but of course the French aire shuttling soldiers, you know, which means the number of men in the area are going to be dropping, which means that it's more obvious when you're the lurker left behind, which would

motivate somebody to either eight now want to go to war or be realized that they're going to start standing out like a sore thumb and motivate them to leave. Now, I'm not sure that these two were linked, but I could see a line between those. I can too, I mean, I definitely. Uh, it's it makes you wonder. I mean again, Paris and London not far apart. It's entirely possible, and there could be other murders out there somewhere else in

France or over the continent. Uh. Well, we'll talk about that later on when we start our our period where that part of the podcast where we talk about like, you know, you're responsible, little speculation and things like that. Yeah, but it does appear that that the same murder may have struck before in London in eighteen seventy three and

maybe eighteen seventy four. Also, so as possible, maybe our purpose started his career in London, maybe headed off for the continent or somewhere and continue to murder people and then eventually came back to London, you know, years later in the late eighteen eighties. Is that possible? Maybe? So let's go back to let's talk about the eighteen seventy

three murders, which were also grizzly and disgusting. So September five, seventy three, Thames police been found part of the left side of a woman's tour so in the mud in the Battersea area, which is I'm not sure that's where is that? That's a run of the tower kind of area, isn't it. Oh? I suddenly cannot think of where it is. It's in London. I don't remember exactly where one is

a big town close enough, right Uh. And also I maybe I won't talk that much about the actual location, says They don't really mean anything to anybody aside for people who live in London, so maybe I won't do that. No one but listens to us lives there, so yeah, that's a good point. Uh. Same day another policeman found the right half of a woman's tour so floating in the Thames. Others found some human lungs in a couple of different places. Uh. Next day a woman's face and

scalp were found. I know, no skull, just to face in the scalp. They've been peeled off. And then two days later a right thigh showed up in a right shoulder and part of an arm. So this is very similar to what we've just been talking about in terms of showing up parts and there was no pun intended in that, but in parts in different areas. Uh, yeah, said said, what's different about it as the face and scalp, you know, showing up to no skull, though no skull

was never found. Police the body parts. First of all, we're all brought together somewhere police lab or something, and they put together like some sort of metal framework and reassembled the body on it. Yeah, and apparently pictures were taken, but I've never seen anything. I don't really want to sounds hideous. The police surgeon determined the victim was a warm and about forty years old, dark hair, short dark hair,

burnt scarring or left breast. Cause of death Keeter Chrman was most likely a blow to the head in this case. So I'm thinking and presuming that there was maybe some sort of contusion mark on the scalp, because they still had that. So maybe that or like we've been talking about before, the only part they really didn't get that didn't appear to have any wound on it other than hacking it up. Yeah, was the skull, well, was the skull?

I mean you still? I mean someboways said blow to the head, versus you have said some sort of brain injury, whether it's a bullet or a baseball bat or or unknown. Yeah, but again that's not totally proven, but that's you know, close to say. Ever came with most of these. Now the face, the face and scalp that was stretched over a butcher's blood right now, I know, apparently to make

it a little more identifiable, I'm not sure. And the word got out that if you were missing a loved one you should come on down to the police station. There was no Netflix at the time, I know, so what's that. There's your entertainment, I guess, but apparently a lot of people did. You could go down there if you wanted to and have a look at this hideous

face stretched over the butcher block. Yeah, and uh yeah, if you're squirming a little bit right now out there, listeners, I'd like to remind you this is Halloween months and we did promise you tales of the macabre, and that doesn't get much more of a cobb than this one, right, really really doesn't. There was one guy showed up and looked at the face and thought it might be his daughter who was missing, although he said that she didn't have a scar on her left breast, so maybe not.

And I really don't know how recognizable your face would be without a skull underneath it to give it its normal shape. I have no idea. I don't think very recognizable. Yeah, and it would be just like those movies you see where the bad guy peels off the mask to reveal who he is, and he throws the mask on the table and it's all wrinkly and no tension left to it.

I mean, it's exactly what it would probably be. Yeah, I would agree with that, Yeah, yeah, But I imagine how weird, how oft it would be to go down there and see your daughter's face, you know, right? Yeah? Yeah, So we can move on, okay, all right, okay. Meantime, some other body parts were showing up in the area of London Bridge. They found two lower legs, part of the right arm, and then left foot, which, of course we're added to the reassembled body on the mettle of framework.

And eventually the police had everything accept the hands and the skull. Yeah uh. And of course the victim was never identified. Cause of death never dependitively found, but probably a blow to the head. And again it was determined that the killer had some surgical skill. Sounds a lot like our guide, doesn't it. Uh. And then that in June eight seventy four, another torso was found in the Thames, uh near Putney wherever that is Putney in London. Okay,

that's close enough. The body in this case was a woman, once again missing the head, arms, and feet. The other body parts never showed up, and the victim was never identified as usual, head never showed up. It's a little different from the eighteen seventy three murdering that the parts didn't show up. But other than that, you know, I don't know. There's pretty similar surgical skill, just remembering all

that stuff. And again, just like in some of the other cases, maybe they were put out there, you know, at a certain time high tide and the tide flushed about to see. Who knows. There's a lot of similarity between these killings and the ones that happened in eighteen eighty seven and eighty nine, I think anyway, not to mention the Paris one um, I think maybe our killer

took a break, but that's hard to imagine. I mean, it could be that maybe he was in prison it maybe perhaps he got married and just tried to reform himself and then along came to divorce or something and he decided to ask for it. Could it be he just went off to the continent, went on the killing spreed, like I kind of mentioned before, And it's always possible. I mean, it would be impossible to search all of

the records. Oh yeah, across Europe. I mean, especially like if you went someplace like um, like Russia or China or one of those giant countries, you know, especially if you went to a small town, went to a colony and then you know, like a British colony and then left, and yeah, it be impossible. It would be well it's it's possible, but the records not by us, so hell now, but maybe somebody could do it. I've also wondered if

maybe the killer was in the army or the Foreign service. Um, maybe you got shipped out to some British colonial possession like in Africa or you know, India, somewhere like that. And while he was there, we were just talking about yeah, yeah, like I said, like apply kept cut on applying his trade, and there's some parts of the world where stuff like that it probably would attract less notice than it would

in downtown London. Yeah. Well, there's parts of the world where when you throw those bits and pieces of a corpse around, the local animal population takes it out up. Oh yeah, you know, it might be the earlier eighteen seventy three or four killings were carried out by somebody difference than our our London Torso killer. I don't know. I think the similarities are just too much to ignore between those eighteen seventy three killings and the late eighties

ones myself. But again, on the other other hand, maybe the eighteen eighty eight killer was inspired by the eighteen seventy three killer. Yeah, I don't know. It's always possible. It is possible. I mean, it's not like there's only a handful of people out there with surgical skill. There's probably plenty of people that had the skill to do this guy. Yeah, chers speculation. I don't know. I I think it was probably the same guy. I don't know.

It's quite the break, But like we said, I mean, they could have gone somewhere, could have been off having fun somewhere else, you know, so that's kind of what I'm thinking. So unfortunately for this, this particular one, they it's unlike Jack the ripperd no suspects were ever identified at all. They never even had a clue as that

who could possibly have done this? Uh, And so that makes our that makes sure it's kind of a thin theories section because we don't have any actual human beings that we could talk about the likelihood of them being the killer. But nonetheless, there are some interesting theories out there about this. But before we get into the series, let's take a break watching kitten videos, competing in a solitaire tournament, working on your coloring book, writing your true

romance novel, twiddling one thumb at a time. These are all options. Is fulfilling your time over the next week until our next episode comes out? Because you guys complain about that a lot. Do you want something else to do? Check out this podcast. It's true crime. It's called Unsolved Murders True Crime Stories, and it's a great twist on

true crime and cold cases. Unlike us, they have a staff of screenwriters and an ensemble of voice actors and a talented digital production team to work on every single episode. So you know, it's going to be great. It contains dramatized scenes that bring cold cases to life, alongside the hosts analysis of each case, which sounds pretty cool and

we should probably think about doing that. At the end of each case, the hosts tell you who they believe committed the crime, similar to us, which I know is something that you guys all really really like. They've covered cases like the Black Dahlia, Joan Robinson Hill Murder, and even the Zodiac. So go ahead and check them out. They come out every Tuesday, so you know, nice bounce

to the week. You can find them on Apple podcast, tune In, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, or pretty much anywhere else. You can check them out on podcast as well. That's podcast p A r C a st dot com slash Unsolved. So that's podcast with an R P A r C a st dot com slash Unsolved Because waiting is kind of like getting punched in the eye, and we're back, all right our first series. Of course, a lot of people thought this guy must be or might be at

least Jack the Ripper. Of course, a lot about the time the second body showed up, Jack the Ripper had just begun his big killing spree, because what's his first killing that we know of for sure was August thirty one. Uh, and that's like, what do they call those? The five canonical five took place in a very short period. Yeah, so there was obviously speculation about Jack being the killer. The police said there was no connection. I'm assuming because

the details of the killing were so much different. Can you just sorry for those of us who aren't crazy, can you just quickly summarize what those differences were. No dismemberment. They were killed in semi public spaces, like in an alley just off of a street where there's traffic. The bodies were dumped because Jack apparently I think he got interrupted on one maybe two. But there were ones where the body was just found and it was cut up and like an organ or two had been removed, like

the uterus again for some reason. But the bodies were not drug away or hacked up like the ms. Were very different in that regard. Jack appeared to just leave them where they lie pretty much. Yeah. And one of the other things that was that was probably different too. It's just the spacing between the killings. Because Jack's the

canonical five. Absolutely Porsure confirmed Jack the Ripper murders took place between August thirty one and November nine, which is seventy one days, for an average of about two weeks between murders, whereas a Torso killing is average about seven months in between murders. And uh, well and so of torsos showing up, well, that's true too, you know. Uh And this is I think possibly the reason that jack At wanted to be so much more famous than the

Tamas Torso killer, which is killing every two weeks. It really keeps keeps your story in the headlines. It's easy for people to forget that there was a body or a series of body parts found on the bank of the river. Yeah, years by two years, a year and

a half, six or nine. It's also scarier when you're just like when it's such a public m o. You know, when you're like, I'm just walking down the street and literally any of these people could just slash out at me and try to kill me or actually do kill me, And you know, that's way scarier than like, well, I don't know, there's no heads on those bodies. They don't there's not even you know, a personage that you can attach to that body. It's just a unfortunate Well yeah,

it's like not even human at that point, I guess. So, yeah, because I have a head, she does not have a head. She does not have a head. I'm alive, she's not. We're different. But I guess that's also not to say that I would completely discount the Jack the Ripper theory in that, you know, it's certainly possible to me that those were just the ones that Jack got caught or interrupted on, or even that that was his part of his escalation. I don't know. I mean, trying to step

up the pace and it was too fast. Yeah, maybe, I don't know. I mean, the hard part is is that with the Jack the Ripper case, it's believed that he had encounters with these women before because they were known prostitutes. And yet with these women the Torso murders, there's no nobody knows who they are, so we can't draw that connection. So therefore, to me, it like it opens the floodgates for people. And I don't know. Yeah, I don't want. I don't think it's Jack for that reason,

just because of the rate. I don't I would agree, I don't think it is, but I don't think that it's a totally, wildly implausible theory, and I think it's one worth entertaining. It's definitely a question worth asking. Yeah, I think that my feeling about Jack is that Jack was a man on a mission. He really, he really was killing a lot of people left and right. No, I don't know why. Boys Our Torso killer was a little more methodical, littlethodical. Yeah, and he played games with

the public and with the police. I mean putting put putting all the parts around for everybody to find on public display like that. He was playing games like kind of like leaving pieces of a jigsaw puzzle scattered around the town for people to find. Enough. Yeah, Jack didn't really do that. So a lot of differences. But although Jack Waite, Jack did mail some well supposedly mailed like

a liver or something to somebody, remember that was last Victims. Yeah, but again still that's that's kind of an outlier in his case. I don't think it links it to this one. Yeah, And that was not one of the canatical five to right. It could have been one of the it has been. I don't want to say that with any certainty, Joe, because it's been so long since I've read about Jack the Ripper, and you know, the Ripper fans out there that are listening to just if we get it wrong,

please don't cut me up. Okay, So probably not Jack, Okay, Yeah, so let's say not. Jack could have been another serial killer. And frankly, you know, obviously it was another serial killer. And you know, who knows. Maybe this guy was Jack's inspiration. Maybe Jack was reading the papers about this guy and the body parts and everything of that. You know, maybe

I'll give that a try, and he liked it a lot. Yeah. Yeah, in a big town like London, you'd think they'd be at least one or two circulars at work at any given time, even back in those days, right, yeah, especially back in those days. Yeah, there was no TV or anything, and yeah, people are a little less squeaming back in those days too, you know. I mean, you know, you went out and got your dinner at the Butcher's, probably watched and kill something right in front of you and

gout it. That actually makes me wonder about the Again we're going back to this, but the whole conversation about the level of expertise that the bodies were dissected with. If you go down and you buy a lego lamb or a hind quarters of an animal, and then you have to call you butcher it on your own at home, or you're just used to doing that kind of stuff to prep your meals. Again, there becomes a certain level of familiarity. Yeah, I mean there were a lot of people,

not just butchers. I mean you know people who hunters, for example, they kind of rather good at at skinning and dressing out you know, animals that they've called. You know, you're cooking some house, you're probably cutting up the meat to a degree. I mean, there's all kinds of occupations. Yeah. Podcast hosts, Oh good point. Have I shown you my knife? That okay knife? Yeah, I'm a piano wire guy myself. You don't need to worry about me, devon. Yeah. So yeah,

probably another serial killer, right, but but who was the killer? Again? Police never came anywhere you're naming a suspect, and that that's I'm thinking that might be another reason we got that just Jack the Ripper mystery here, which is why it is Jack so much more famous. The police never came anywhere close to naming anybody as a suspect. Nobody

at all. And in the case of Jack, of course, there were some suspects that were out there fairly quickly, and the doors that gave people a lot of license to sit around the pub speculating, well, did you know, did John Doe over here? Was he really the killer? And there's in this case, there was just nothing much to sink your teeth into because he who knows, there's no suspects. And so even though obviously it was another serial killer, we'll never know who the hell it was.

But here, you know, there's a few possible theories just to you know, why this person would do it. It could have it could have been maybe some John basically a guy who frequents prostitutes and who decided that, you know, well, you know, maybe this particular girl is like, you know, got the goods on me or whatever. He picked something up and from his encounters with her, oh, maybe that's it too. He was feeling a little baneful about the whole thing. But I didn't know which one it was.

It could have been that or maybe somebody threatening with a little blackmail. Maybe it was actually somebody fairly well to do, and he decided to, you know, just kill her rather than get out. Yeah, Um, you know, and then you know, perhaps there was one person he killed who was trying to blackmail and and the other ones were kind of loose ends, people who knew about his

association with this person. Um, you know, it would be a great reason to leave, cut off the heads and make sure they never turn up, because if if they identify that person, then then you could easily become a suspect because you're a known associate. Ever, so prostitutes customers just like Jack, Perhaps somebody patronized prostitutes. Another theory that's possibly out there is botched abortions. This one doesn't This

one does not work for me in this particular. I mean explain certain things like like the unvers is being missing in at least a few cases. But I have a problem with theory too, which is that if you're an abortionist and you're trying to cover up your little medical misadventure, well this guy picked a rather great way to go about it, right, Yeah, so I think we can scratch There was the spot the botched abortion thing. There was One of the speculations in the press was

that it was kind of a medical school prank. Yeah, so these were possibly medical school cadavers which had been disposed of after dissection, and so I guess I wouldn't say there needs to be a prank involved there necessarily. I mean, it seems to me that sometimes, you know, that was a thing, right that there were medical schools you like, you did the dissections, and there should have

been an official way to dispose of said bodies. But not always, especially if you're like hair situation, you're trying to save some money, you know, yeah, I mean, I you know, well, you probably hear some of the stories about the way they acquired corpses to dissect back. Some

of them are pretty pretty maccabbin of themselves. They actually people would actually go out and steal fresh bodies out of graveyards and taking the medical schools and sell them, you know, and that would be sort of a wink weight nudge nudge. The guys at the medical schools knew had a pretty good idea where they were coming from.

So maybe their disposal guy was trying to save I mean, you know it's proba, yeah, because yeah, that's the thing is, uh, you got this creepy hunchback that's delivering the corpses to you, and maybe you gonna like canut, Igor, would you mind getting word of the room mainsforce too? And he's like sure for a few bucks, you know, because I'm gonna have to bribe an undertake or to to basically stuff him into a coffin with some other body or something

like that. And then and then Igor thinks, hey, why not pocket the money and just toss the stuff in the river. Maybe maybe the furnace was broke down. Yeah, I mean, you know, if that's an easy way, you know, maybe that would explain why the bodies were cut into pieces, was to throw it into a furnace. Today, well, if they were cadavers, they could have been used to, you know, practice the section in the whole process of teaching anatomy, right, yeah,

kind of go up that way. It seems out of character, out of line, what with what I know of that even in that day and age medical students would be doing. It would seem they it would seem like you would maybe like be totally dissecting, like opening up the chest cavity and checking out the organs and stuff like that. But these bodies were treated more like crabs after you've cooked him and you're going to eat just broken and chunks.

Then what a medical set of medical students would do unless they really really sucked, well they could it could have been that. Yeah, maybe they were teaching how to do amputations. Yeah they had an amputation has never been a real practice, So I don't know about that one. Yeah, toy students, the amputation one oh one, get yourselves out. So you know, it could have been an eager just

had a twisted sense of humor. Um. And again, as I said that, the one of time suggested that it might have been a medical school prank, and apparently people had a different kind of sense of humor back in

those days. But there's another twist on it, which was that maybe Igor was our hunchback, was having a little way to dispute with his employers, and this is this way of sending a message to them, you know, um, the message being basically, hey, you know, you guys kind of like need me to keep my mouth shut because I kind of got the goods in using this blackmail. Again, could have been that could have been just you know, and then you know they said, hey, Eger, we're really

really sorry, here's some extra cash for you know. And then next time thing, Igor gets his nose how to joint happens. Again, I don't know. I think that's as I mean, it's silly, kind of a stres. You didn't come up with it, so I feel comfortable saying that silly. Yeah, well, actually I came up with part of it. I did. You're not the London Times though, Yeah, No, the medical school prank is they came up with, Yeah, you are having a way to speed. I did kind of come

up with that one myself. But yeah, I don't know, It's just it doesn't quite make sense because again it's like Steve was saying, the it's not really the way they dissect bodies, or at least not in those days. I don't think. So. Yeah, alright, I could picture another game between medical students. They they finished dissecting this corpse and uh and at the end of it all the the professor says, Okay, you guys, now we gotta get

rid of this body. So before you leave the class today, I want everybody to take one piece and throw it in the garbage. You know, I'm showing your way home, don't think so. Okay, that's a little weak too, So you know, it's it's hard to say I'm thinking Process to its customer who for whatever reason was angry at prostitutes, or it could have been somebody who's never frequented a prostitute at all, maybe just to despise Process morally reasons

did what they did. I mean, I don't know that there needs to be a reason to go to this level of cutting bodies up and then throwing those parts in the river. You've got to have some strong motivation, because there's not. But I I kind of think otherwise. I mean, I think that if we're saying, you know, his motivation was he was he was angry at something, you know, blah blah, I would argue that this is

like too far. Right. The Jack the Ripper reaction is like, yeah, that's a dude who was automission and was like piste off at some people for whatever reason. Right, this is like, this is like a somebody whose brain works differently than the rest of the people. Is in my mind, it's just somebody who's just like an insane person. Not I don't even know what the correct term would be for that, but you know, not all I know, I don't think

that's the right one. There's one, but it doesn't really matter some sort of just like crazy insane person who just this is like a pathological urge for them to be killing and cutting up because it just seems too yeah, cool headed, toolheaded. Obviously, this guy seems to be at least someone intelligent and you know, and clever enough to actually get away with this, I mean totally get away with him. When we think about it. He's not just

dumping one body. He's dumping body parts all over the place. And you have what it being witnessed doing this by everybody. Nobody saw him. Ever, I guess that the guy was good at what he did. Somehow. That makes me think butcher more because if you see the local butcher walking around with you know, pieces of meat wrapped in you know, again wrapped in either paper or cloth, because they did wrap things in cloth and twine, you think there's a

you hamhock, you know. And then over the edge local rug sales we know, there goes Tom and then the rug over his shoulder that was selling rugs down by the river. But I mean that would to me, would speak more to something like that. I don't know. So, you know the one thing that I've I've been wondering about is we've been going through. This is the state of the bodies is such that they were all in

the water for at least several weeks before they were found. Well, not necessarily, Okay, not necessarily because the body like like the bodies were somewhat old, But as far as having how long they have been in the water, it's kind of hard to tell. Me. I got the impression that they've been in the water for at least some extended amount of time. But where I'm going with this is that some of the damage or the dissection of the bodies that was done may not have actually been done

by a person. I mean, the Thames is a very busy river even at that time. I mean there's not power boats, but there are gonna be paddle wheel boats, you know, steam power is a thing. At this point, coal burning boats are around. So it's possible that while not all of the cutting of the bodies was done, I mean, they could have been run over by ships and boats like that multiple times and that could have helped some of this along. So I don't I guess I just would say I would just go back to

the corners saying like these were precise dissections. I don't. That doesn't really happen. When I don't, I don't know how because we can't see any imagery. I'm gonna again question how true that statement is. Helped correct that statement is if it's if it's a piece of a body, let's just say it's an arm, it's been severed, has been floating in the river or sitting on the bank for a week or two. It's not in good condition anymore. But they did did say there were no signs of violence.

So if something if a body has been torn apart because it's been run over by a boat, there's gonna be other lacerations, ands and stuff like that. So you would assume, yeah, that there would be some signs of some kind of violent trauma to the body. Well, there was those paddle wheelers that were going around with razor blades on the tips of each one, and that that could have been it. Yeah, the scalpel model, it didn't pass very long, didn't know, just enough to cut up

about five bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was discourage homeless people from trying to get a free ride. Those free riders, you know, pay up your Yeah, yeah, I don't think so, I don't. I don't know how long they were in the river to be, to tell you the truth, because I don't know that there are a lot of signs that they've been nibbled on with the fishes either. I mean, yeah,

it's hard to say. If you kept him around on ice for a while and then chopped him up and threw him the river, maybe who knows, Maybe it's such a six sicko six sicko that he just chopped him up and just sort of like kept him around and just that his work for a while, you know, for for a week or two. We keep going out here. I'm not saying that I would get off of it, but there are people like that, at least in the movies. There are. Of course, there's always possibility that he didn't

murder any of them. Maybe for some reason they died of natural causes. He decided to part you chop them up and dispose of the body himself for whatever reason. Well this is this is just a spur from your ego theory, uh not really even from igor. But yeah, I kind of doubt this. I mean, but you know, some people have speculated that maybe he didn't actually murder them, they just chopped them up and got rid of the bodies for for whatever reason. I find it hard to believe.

I can't. I don't see why the hell anybody would do that. Yeah, I don't understand. I I also think the heads would have shown up. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, there's no reason to Oh my god, there's no reason to withhold the heads unless you're trying to keep these people from being identified. Yeah, especially since we

know that, you know, fingerprints and DNA weren't viable. The only way you were really going to be able to identify these people was yes, okay, if the whole body showed up, which you know obviously didn't happen that often, or if a head with a face on it showed well, you know, it could have been that the guy I say, let's say it was prostitutes. He detested prostitutes, and and I didn't like the idea of say this, this prostitute is identified and given a Christian burial, and maybe it's

just sort of a final insult. He like, with holds your heads so and put your bodies on body parts on public display everywhere, kind of this final act of disrespect and seeing to she gets buried in an unmarked popper's grave instead of being buried in a marked grave, you know, that kind of thing. But I still really really doubt that this means that makes as much sense as he was doing this just to make shrunken head to Yeah. Yeah, maybe I don't. I don't think this

is true. I think obviously this guy did kill them, and otherwise he had or maybe he had a remarkable streak of luck and stumbling across people who just happened to I you know, yeah, there would have been male bodies, because here that's the key here. Yeah, that's true too. Maybe it was a mortician who was an aspiring butcher's yeah, and they just you know, had the dead bodies, and

he was like, well, this one won't be missed. It could have been it could have been the ones marked for cremation, unclaimed bodies that could have been you know, maybe we wanted to save on his fuel bills and so instead of cremating them, he just he just like emptied up some some ashtrays into an urn and gave them to the fence. And dude, we know that's happened

in recent time. That does happen. I don't know why you wouldn't just like throw full bodies into someone else's casket, you know, to to to do a casket or something like that. That seems much easier. It seems like the way to go. Yeah, I could. Well, that could actually explaining a long gaps in between. Though. It could be that just in these these crunch times that you got a body to get rid of and you've got you, only you don't have any actual bodies or coffins in

your funeral home. Then it might be at that particke in. Okay, people were dropping like flies at that time in London. I don't think there was ever a time where there wasn't a body in a box. Well, yeah, that's such a thing as competition and stuff like that. It might be that, Or there's also those damned open casket funerals. You know, there's those things too. Yeah, and so, but that's a possibility. And all right now we're almost at the end here. This is the part where I usually

blame Choopy Um. However, I recently got to pull out a firmly worded email from not other than the Choops Dre himself. You guys read the email I'm sure did, asking me to cease and desist. Um, he didn't mention lawyers, but that was kind of the unstated subtext. So I'm gonna leave Cheapy out of this one. Besides, it's not really cheapis m O? Right? Yeah, alright, so cheapy You're off the hook on this one. I don't have a freeing, I don't have even a reasonable theory and we can

who the hell knows I I mean neither. Yeah, so it looks like the Torso Killer is Scott free. Al Right. Well, anyway, if you have any thoughts about this, you want to send us an email. Our email address is Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. You can also find us on iTunes, where you can, like you know, downloader episodes. You can subscribe, which is be awesome. Uh, leave us a rating, leave us a review, preferably good. We like

that better. You can also find us on Stitcher and uh a lot of other streaming services too many the name, but there's lots of them out there. Um, and of course the same thing. You can leave ratings and reviews those places too, so do that. We are on of course Twitter, where we are Thinking Sideways and Devon's out there updating and sending out fun tweets all the time, right literally constantly? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so constantly every day. Check. Yeah,

uh where else are Oh? Facebook? I forgot Facebook? Didn't that? Yeah, we are on Facebook where we have a page and we also have a group, So don't try to friend us, but like our page, join the group kind of almost the same as being friends with us. You. If you're part of the group, then you can like join in conversations and have all sorts of fun times. Yeah. Yeah,

we're on Reddit. We have a sub reddit our of our very own, and it's quite active, right devon Yeah, superci Yeah, all kinds of stuff going on out there. And last of all, you can find us on our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Or you can also listen to our episodes and you can also buy merch inside I don't know, all kinds of cool stuff. There's the episode list, which we can update. Yeah, there is an episode list out there too, so that way

if you're wondering. They talk about this trapper, the mat Trapper. Yeah, exactly, that's a good one. Rat River. Yeah, I love that name, the Matt Trap rat River. Well, you can look on the list and find it there. That's about it for this week. Happy Halloween mounts everybody. So all I kind of say is like, uh, say Anara, Yeah, we'll see you guys later. I guess go buy candy b