Thinking Sideways: The Lake Bodom Murders

always by Devin and Steve. We're back. I know it's seems like a long time, but it's only been a week, folks. That's how much you love our episodes. Uh, this week where I can continue our October a series of Thinking Sideways Most wanted, meaning the mysteries that you people all voted to have us talk about. So this is like remember what four on the list? I think? So the third runner up to third runner up in like beauty

pageant says, how do you do it? You've the first runner up in the the first place, or a winner. I just find it easier just to say one through five. But okay, well last week was fourth runner up. So well that's because you decided to call doing my way. We screwed it up my way. Al right, back to our mystery. Yeah, we're gonna be talking about an event that took place in nineteen sixty had a place called

Lake Bottom in Finland. There was a little bit of unpleasantness at this lake and we won't go into it any further than that because it's scary and gross. End of episode. Yeah, thanks for listening. Yeah, thanks for voting to All Right, so we're looking at We're gonna be looking to the Lake Bottom murders, which is the greatest don stall of crime in the history of Finland. All our story begins June four, nineteen sixty four. Teenagers set up from the town of Espo, Finland, on their motorcyclist

to go into camping trip. Their destination was Lake Bottom, which is just to the north of town, so they didn't have to go too far. But it turns out there camping there it just wasn't a good idea at all. Well, I mean it usually it was, wasn't it kind of like a local teen hangout. Actually teenagers did the party. Yeah, I think it actually still is a popular place and you know, sweating fishing, you know, camping, drinking a little booze. Yeah yeah, so yeah, it's so people have not been

to Turred. I guess there's still there and hanging out. Yeah. Yeah. The four teenagers in that we're talking about, we're finished, of course, which means that they have un pronounceable names. So what are we going to him instead? Yeah? I know I'm going to call him Larry, Fred, Giselle, and Trudy. Right close enough? All right, I'm probably gonna miss pronounced every name, every place name, every person's name in this episode. Sorry, but that's the way it goes. People who know this

language admit it's kind of a tough language. Give it your best, Joe. Our four teenagers. Hear their names is like the best I can say them Your Molly Yorkland, Anya, Mokei, Seppa, Boiseman, Nils, Gustav. He has the easiest. Yeah, this is easy. I just goodness. Yeah. It turns out Moley and on Ya we're both fifteen year old girls. Sepa and Nils were eighteen, and one of them were was dating there there. Yes, Steppa had been dating on for about a year, so I guess

I started dating when she was fourteen. I thought you was seventeen, it was sixty. Things were kind of a gray area then. I still think it's a little weird, but standards, but well, I don't know what the laws are in Finland. Maybe it's perfectly a little bubboard. Maybe Yeah, Neils have been dating your your Molly for a month. Anyway, there they're they're seting out their camp on a small peninsula that's down to the southwest corner of the lake.

Peninsula is called Emmy, which it finished means murder Peninsula. Was they always called that? I don't know, I don't. I doubt it. It's called that since then. Yeah, it would be awesome if it always that's the question, right, It's like, was some did some teenagers think, you know, we're a great place to camp Murder Point? Yeah, yeah,

campers always killed cabin let's go there. Yeah, but I got that off of Google naps are actually Google Google Earth, you know how they slapped place names and on various things, and yeah, that was on there. So I translated it and that's what I said. Yeah, I'm not surprised he has a name like that. Yeah. So, uh, they hung out, hung out and did camping kind of things, and then about went to bed. You remember, you gotta remember that Finland is way far north, so sunset on June four

would have been around ten thirty. So they went to bed about sunset, yeah, because well sunrise is real early too. Well. And the thing, I don't know if a lot of people have spent time in kind of the northern regions.

I suppose many of our listeners have. If you haven't, there's also a huge discrepancy between like sunset and then there's like a couple hours of dusk right before it gets like really really dark, and then it's dark for just a couple of hours before it starts to be dawn on a good night, on a good night, yeah, and then the sun rises. So that's another thing to keep in mind while I'll tell the story, is that it would have been light out for the bulk of

the night as well. I think I think it actually said on that same page that you got the sunset at ten thirty. I think it said that full dark was at midnight or something like that. It was dark for like three hours. Yeah, and then and then the sunrise is in the morning. That sounds right, right, So you read that too. Yeah, I remember that the sun rose. So it makes sense it really in this case, I'd say, what, there's four hours between sun set in sunrise, I'd say

full dark is almost nil at that point. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess you get used to it. I suppose you get used to sleeping when it's light out. Yeah. Well, I'm sure they were used to that, but that's probably why they went to bed at about sunset, knowing they would try to sleep when it was dark as at least. Yeah, exactly. Okay, back to our story. That just was a large canvas pup pup tent. As I'm sure you all know camp.

A pup tent is supported by a pole at either end, and then the pole is held in place by a rope that goes down to a stake in the ground right there on two ends on each on either end. Yeah, like the quintessential tent. Yeah, that's kind of yeah, one of the old school canvas. I think of it as like a Wes Anderson tent. But that's just because that's my frame of reference from mid century. So yeah, yeah, sorry, I actually had a pup tent when I was a kid.

I used it a lot, camped a lot more back then. Well, there's less murders. Yeah, that's yeah, I think that you knew of Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people just moved unannounced immediately with leaving all of their stuff behind. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm gonna go camping and then moved. Yeah, they must have moved those ox after stuff. So back to our spot of unpleasantness, Pinsula, let's refer to it by

its real name. Yeah, that pleasantness took place in daylight because the attack happened between four and six am, and at that time, a person or possibly persons cut the lines at both ends of the tent. The tent collapsed on our sleeping protagonists and then and then again while person or two persons attacked them with the blood object in a knife that poundered on their heads and stabbed them through the canvas. It's unclear what the blood object was.

It could have been a rock or it could have been a pipe and those gustus And appears to have been the only one of the four to actually crawl out of the tent, but he was brought down by blows to the head and slashed to the forehead, and he wound up laying unconscious on top of the tent. When the tent had the other bodies inside of it. I thought one of the other girls was also like at least partially out of the tent. Yeah, one of his his um, Molly, I've heard it in one place.

I heard that she was she was either partially or completely out of the tent. And also her her pants or skirt whatever she was wearing was gone. Yeah. So I remember reading, and I think this helps kind of describe some of this is pop tenser. You know, you lay in them and you're kind of like a log, you're laying in a row. And if I remember correctly, it was the boys were on the outsides of the tent, so one on either side, and then the girls were side by side in the center. I thought it was

a reverse. I thought it was the guys on the inside and the girls on the outside, because I that's well the way I had heard it was that it was the guys were on the outside or read it, I should say, And I got I couldn't tell which direction they were sleeping, because that pup tent, when you look at it, is pretty damn small. Yeah, so I was trying to figure out how they were stacked in there. Were they on their sides were they all kind of at a ninety degree angle with their legs bend from

the spine. They probably were all just stacked in a row, just in a row for our gains and a can right, Yeah, it's kind of And the tent when I saw it, and maybe this was just for some of the reason, it had tears in it, But it seemed like both ends by the peaks, both ends had tears of stabs and ribs and them. Is that when you saw what I saw? Yeah, plus a really big hole torn in it, right, and a bunch of blood. It looked like all on one side, all the tears were happening. On the one

side it was still intact. Yeah. You know, I haven't seen a picture of both sides of the town. Yeah, yeah, I've only seen it from one side. Yeah, but it looks like there was it was canvas through. I just mean that, like when you looked at that picture, it was it looked like there was canvas on the other side, Oh, the back side of the tent that we couldn't see,

or the opposite side of it. Yeah, probably that the poles when the ropes were kind of went in and then that one shows aside and just both went down one side of the other so one side could tipped away from us, Yeah, and on over their bodies and then just started pounding away with his blood object, which would explain why only one of the two sides of the pitch of the tent had the holes in it. That makes sense. But what I don't get is if

they are being assaulted that much. And like I said, it seemed like that side of the pitch, the left and right side of it had holes in it, so it wasn't like they were going for what they expected to be the heads. And I got the impression that whoever was doing the attacking didn't know where their heads were in the tent, so kind of went after both sides. You could have jumped on top of them and felt aroun until he found and found the head and then bash.

You know that that might have been the way, and it could have forgotten cut in the struggle with Nell's trying to get out of the tent. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, and that's what that's what led me to this whole thing, is if he gets out, how did he get out of the tent, because obviously he couldn't have gone through the flap, he would have had gone through all the holes that was kind well, that's one of those holes was definitely way big enough for

him to get out, right. But that's why I'm wondering if the girl, um what is her name again or Molly, I'm almost wondering if she didn't necessarily actually climb out as much as kind of half to get drug out as he was scrambling out, or maybe the killer drugger out afterwards. True, Yeah, we don't know. Niel's actually doesn't remember anything in the attack. Weird got hit real hard on the head or yea to keep cashion, Yeah, he got hit both, just because this is important later, right,

he did front and back pretty hard, shattered his jaw. Yeah, okay, I just want to make sure that we've said that he got whale. I will bring that up later. He was seriously injured, but he did survive the attack. He had to go to the hospital, of course. Uh, they had to list his injuries. He had to blow to the back of the head, which gave him a wound or in a lump back there that which probably is what gave him his concussion, and then his jaw was

shattered and in the hospital. It looked like his eye was puffed up too. Yeah, I don't know if that's just a side effect of getting your josh added if you got Okay, that's what I and I'm gonna ask these questions a couple of times because the research is a little spotty in places, at least in English to find the answer. So do we know where from where his jaw was shattered? Was it on from the side of the mandible? Was it from the point of the chin.

I got the impression it was on the side. I got the impression it was on the side also, Okay, So that would explain why if you get hit hard enough to break your your jaw, why your eyes going to swell up? Yeah? Probably Yeah, especially if you were laying on your side, because that's where the blood would pool more. If you had any kind of internal bleeding. Well, was the swollen I are you saying he was laying on the brake after the fact, Yeah, okay, I don't know.

I'm just saying, yeah, it also helped. I don't know. I was just thinking a blow hard enough to show Again, I may just be making this up. I'm doing the same that we just don't know uh, at the time of the attack was determined by the temperature stiffness of the bodies, which is usually the way they do that. And yeah, yeah, And as to what the blood object was, it's hard to say what it was without radiomedical examiner's report.

Getting hit with a pipe is it's going to leave a different wound and getting hit with a rock, although that I think about using a big rock said of a pipeus, it's really easy to get rid of your murder weapon, especially if you're right next to a late he just tossed in the lake. Yeah, so that's the argument pavor of using a rock. Plus, you know, I do know if this was a well planned attack, I feel it's just a spur of the moment thing. Lots of lots of us are likely to have a knife

auto steady given time. Most of us aren't gonna have a knife and a lead pipe. Probably not I do, but that's me. Yeah, that's because you don't like to watch your car by yourself. Yeah, because you guys keep scaring me these creepy stories. Nills was even he couldn't remember it, but he was hypnotized after Yeah, and he identified the optects then as a pipe or a cylinder, but I'm not sure how serious it should take that. Are we going to talk about what he said when

he was hypnotized? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I definitely we will definitely talk about that, even though again I'm not sure how seriously we should take this hypnosis stuff. We've talked about that before. Sometime not long after the murders, two young boys who apparently were at bird watching that happened by the camp site. They noticed a tent and Nils lying on it. But apparently they just assumed that he was taking a snooze in the sun because they

just they just it have wandered on. But before they well they were they were first attracted by the motorcycles. Well apparently that was that was part of what they said that they were interested in the motorcycles also, and so they saw him laying there, and they also saw a blonde man walking away from the camps that toward the lake and then that they molted on. Were they were they the ones that helped to provide the sketches of the blonde man. Yeah, no, they didn't see the

blond man's face. He was back to them. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure. If I don't, I think it was actually Nils. He provided did the sketches, and the sketches came out really kind of funky looking. Yeah, it didn't look like a human being. Hopefully we'll post pictures. They're creepy. Yeah, yeah, and I don't. I can't imagine any human being who looks like that, So that's the strange thing. The pure Yeah, yeah, look like a giant forehead maybe yea, and a huge

seventies hulk. Yeah, maybe, Sorry, it's okay. Our blonde guy. The blond man was also seen by a guy who was fishing nearby some some set on the farther shore. But that could mean like since you were in a peninsula, you know, that could mean just like right over here, you know, how to treat. Probably was reasonably close if it was a far far shore of the lake. Well, this this is a big lake. It's like half a mile across. That had to be close. It had to be kind of close. But we don't know for sure

if it was the same guy. Because of the population of Finland is blonde, so uh, you know, there's kind of a commonality there. Yeah, it didn't add as it happened, Neils laid there unconscious until eleven am on. Somebody was jogging by. His name was Reto swim team. I hearned it. It was some swimmers or something. There was something swimming. I I heard a lot of contradictory things that this is the guy that I had heard. It was a single guy who was who was a carpenter by trade,

who was out for a jog. That's what I heard. I don't know, I don't know where I I thought I read somewhere it was swimmers or a swim team or thing. Yeah, but somebody well it was a swim achieve of carpenters. Yeah. Yeah, So he came by. He noticed that he noticed the scene, and he went over and checked and noticed that that Nils was injured, and there appeared to be bodies in the tent. And he might have noticed also his girlfriend lying next to him on top of the tent. It is a tent covered

in blood, yeah, and as blood. So they cat He calls the police. Then word gets out around town. Espo was not a really huge town. Uh work going around fast. Everybody from Espo came out and started walking around through the woods looking for clues or evidence or murder weapons um.

And surprisingly the local police were okay with that. But I guess it might be that they just didn't have a lot of resources on the police force, you know, to actually call like combed through the woods themselves, so they got the locals to do it and seem like this is something they deal with on a regular also, and to that point, right that they would think, well, clearly nobody from our community could have done this, so they wouldn't be trying to cover it up, so they

can help. That's fine, right, that innocent thought process. Yeah, yeah, that is a that's a good point. You know, you want the first thing you want to do is get on that combing team. You were the murder. Yeah, and that is not uncommon. Yeah, that's not You can get out there and coming through the woods looking for the murder just like happened upon it and then just happened

and like not reported. Yeah. The police will started going through the personal effects of the victims and they found that some of the some of the stuff was missing, like the wallets and the swimsuits. Also Nils and Seppo shoes were gone and the swimsuits. Maybe it can be explained because I hear like bottom is very cold, and so maybe they weren't planning on swimming at all. Where

did I read something about Nils was talking. There's there's some interview or there's some transcript of him talking about the fact that I swear it was him. He had gone down to the water, he was going to go swim the hypnotism interview, and the other guy was fishing, and then he decided not to swim because it's so cold, which would mean that his swim gear had disappeared. Alternately, though, if he had gotten it wet, or if they had

gone swimming at all. You know, when I go swimming at a lake, I lay my swim clothes out, like on the lake shore where it's sunniest and more missed, or hang from a branch, you know, yeah, something like that to dry. So if they had gone in and been like, well, I'm just kidding, it's way too cold, you take that thing off and lay it out to dry somewhere, So that would also account for true. But I I mean most people do it close to camp. Yeah,

that's true. And I'm sure they searched the shore. I mean, you know, so you would think they would have found if they were laying around there, but they might they just maybe they didn't bring any at all. And I I you talked about the shoes were missing. Yeah, okay, and what I know, those come up later on, and I just want to make sure people understand that the shoes were missing, which is weird that we're definitely missing. Yeah,

so that's that's still kind of inexplicable. Yeah, that's really weird. Actually the wallets being gone my point of this being a robbery with a little murder throw until on the end. It's hard to say. But also they were eighteen and fifteen, respectively, so like it wouldn't be much. Yeah, you can't be that good of a motive. Motive. Yeah, and actually I have to admit I've only heard about the missing Wallace

from one source. Again, this story is a little different everywhere you read it, and it's hard to I think finish is hard. I know Google Translate has a really hard time with finish. We were talking about there's a really great with like a very as far as I can tell, exhaustive Wikipedia article in Finnish about this, and you know, you tell, okay, Chrome translate this and you do you get sentences where it's like the man's chin was afternoon and un rock like appearance, and it's like,

I don't know what that means. I'm sorry, I don't know, or you're trying to tell me right now. So there's there's that difficulty as well. Yeah, there's a uh. I translated another out the Wicked finished page into into English and I had a similar result. I was able to actually get some it was. It wasn't completely unintelligible, but it was that this one was about a double murder

that happened the year before. Were not too far from like bottom Well, certainly not every sentence is that way, but there are some sentences where you're just like that. But I think that's part of the reason that every version in English that you read is a little different, because people are translating it themselves, either because they know some of the language or they're using a translation tool.

And yeah, that must not be important, that's fine. Yeah, there's got to be somebody after who speaks both English and Finnish. I think there's a couple of them well, and I don't, but I I don't know finish well enough to know if it's you know, a partially tonal language, if there's some sort of well this word means something fiction with a certain inflection. And if it's all written, like all the transcripts are written, then like you're kind

of just s O L that's that's true. Or if it was written wrong or the spelling was different, or there was a dialect or you know, had bad handwriting, also possible. Yeah, so those are all points Nielsen's separ Those shoes were finally found six hundred Yeah, they were found. Okay, Yeah, they were found six hundred south southwest of the campsite as the crow flies and almost eight hundred meters. If you walk on a path, how long would it take me to walk that far? That's a kilometer and a half.

So were's your quats to? What about a mile? Yeah? I mean actually I guess a little more than a mile ballpark mile round Yeah, yeah, not too far. It's a long way to carry two pairs of shoes. I mean, if you mean just one way, do you mean just one way? It's just one way. That's that's a half mile. So you could do that. Yeah, yeah, you could do that, like you know, seven or eight minutes probably way, but maybe not as far as you want, Like it's through forest area, it's a path, so you know, you know

where they want to walk at barefoot? Probably not right, Yeah, it's not necessarily walking walking at barefoot if the killer picked these things up, right, But that's that's the point, right, is that, Like it's unlikely that the boys would have been like, well, I'll just leave our shoes here and walk barefoot back to can Proba. Yeah, highly unlikely, Okay,

the sideswitch. I mean, if they left their campsite to go anywhere, I mean, they would have just gone down to the lake, right, I mean, and this was kind of way the south off the peninsula they were on. Many many accosts of this mystery said that it was

only Nills shirts shoes that were taken. But actually I got this from finished source, which and so well, and I've actually seen stuff about the shoes, both pairs of shoes showing up in the coverage of the case against Nils, So I think that it's just been omitted from a bunch of places. Yeah, but it's good, good, fine, yeah, both Yeah, So both shoes were found, both sets of shoes, and it was just by canvassing, right, Yeah, And they weren't far off the path, It's like, but it wasn't

like nails. When he was under hypnosis or something said oh and I know where our shoes right, No, yeah, it was I think it was people walking around and they found them and I don't believe they had blood on them. Okay, so they were taken after the murders. That's one of the things about the whole Nils didn't thing. That's just so weird to me. Huh, there's a lot of weirdness in that case. There's a lot of people and for a lot of people with nails, is still

there number one guy, which is so weird. Yeah, well, we'll talk more about that the cases gets Nils. But but speaking of that hypnosis that we were talking about a minute ago, he did describe the attacker while he was under said the attacker was midsized, with a round face, long blonde hair combed straight back. And I don't know if by long people had really long, because this is Nix and people men had short hair back on those days, so long could have just man like, you know, kind

of long ish. I'm not really sure that it was a couple inches long, could have been long hair, Yeah, back in those days. He said. He had white teeth, so that's good, a straight nose and kind of thick lips. He had an acne on his forehead and cheeks and uh, and of course he saw him through that big hole in the side of the tent. He also said under hypnosis, said he tried to crawl out of the tent, and he crawled out, and then the attacker kicked him in

the face. Yeah, Ki kicked him in the mouth, I think, And I'm not sure if that was what broke his jar or not. He said, Yeah, there were some other weird things he said when he was under hypnosis. But the thing about it is is, you know, you get hit in the head, you get a concussion. I mean,

I could see. I don't have any faith that hypnosis can really restore lost memories, say, if your brain has suppressed them, I mean perhaps if you're going to suppress them because of trauma, but if you're not physically supressed, yeah, yeah, if you get bashed in the head and the face them, well yeah, you're you're you're sustaining a small amount at least of brain damage, and so I don't think you can restore those memories. I really have big doubts about

the whole hypnosis thing. It was under hypnosis that he said the timeline right, that they had gone to bed at ten thirty, and then he said they woke up and both the boys went down to the lake and went fishing. Yeah, and then that was when he said, oh, I was gonna go swimming, but I decided not to. And then he said, oh, and then we came back

and we went to bed again. Yeah, So I don't know if they be So I don't know if they just woke up because it was getting light out, or it's entirely plausible that when the night is that short that you take a three or four hour nap and you get up for a little bit because you can't sleep anymore, do something nothing puts you to sleep faster than food in your belly, and then lay back down and take a quick nap and try and get another

couple of hours. Yeah. I mean, obviously, uh, really early in the morning was a good time to go fishing. So and so it's entirely possible that he just woke up because that, you know, But again, I don't trust that he actually really truly remembered the stuff. It might be people who are people can become really suggestible and stuff under hypnosis, and it might have been that that's what they planned on doing. Yeah, the night before, let's

get up at dawn and go fishing. And this actually tells me probably what happened and who is guilty of the whole thing. Who's that? Well, we all know that the chupacabra likes to fish. It's really territory and it does not like he does not competition, and he doesn't like people intense either. That's true. So I think we found our call. Think we have your Okay, Well, I guess the rest of this is pointless, so you can

we'll just burden this. No, I will say, just to the credit of the whole hypnosis thing, at least in this case, I agree with you. I don't think that it can. You know, if you sustain a concussion. No, I mean, if you're like suppressing childhood memories because they're bad. Maybe maybe maybe psychologically traumatic. Man, I'm just going to say it again. Maybe maybe, but she's saying. I'm what

I'm saying is okay. Maybe, But I don't know. I did read the interview that at least the translation of the interview, and it did sound like the questions were pretty straightforward as recorded. At least it was okay, so tell me about that night, and then he would say some stuff and they'd say okay, and then what happened? Okay, what looked like? What about his nose? What did his nose look like? What? You know? Sounded it seemed pretty straightforward at the very least they were. They were not

trying to plan any ideas in his head. No, but there was there were sometimes where he would say I don't know, and they'd say no, no, no, you know. He'd be like, oh, you're right, I do know. Yeh see. But the thing about it is he remembers things like crawling out of the tent getting kicked in the face. But the fact that he was found outside the tents and they had already told him, it's not like they kept everything from him. You know that they told me.

You know you were you guys were all your friends were all beaten and stabbed death, and you were found lying on top up with the tent with a concussion and broken jaw. And so he is going to he's gonna think he's gonna be thinking to himself well, I must have crawled out of the tent during the attacks somehow, and so I go he goes into hypnosis thinking that. And so maybe he didn't crawl out of the tent.

Maybe the killer dragged him out of the tent. I mean, yeah, I mean it's hard to say, but yeah, I think he is just totally that hanging. Let's talk about some suspects. Our first suspect was probably Luoma according to Google or according to Wikipedia, he was an escape ee from a work department nearby. And I'm not sure what a work department is, crew like a chain gang sort of thing or you know, work crew. So he'd probably have been

convicted of some crime. Um. But he caught up with him pretty soon after the murders and they questioned about the murders. But he had to happen to have an alibi. And I really can't tell you why this guy is even included on all the list of suspects that you see out there in the web. Convict, convict nearby, But you know, I mean, the guy, the guy was on a work crew. He obviously had not done anything too serious.

Yeah right, that's true. Yeah, probably according to Shawshank redemption they would put anybody on the word on the chain gang work crew. Well, and I also don't know how the you know, the jail system works in Finland. There are a lot of places in Europe that do, like real actual rehability of punishment for crimes that you know, end up in politics doesn't matter anyway, but they do actually do, like they try to rehab. Probably a good

idea to try to rehab people. Probably not a great idea to like lock them in isolation for years on end, now, not really, Yeah, yeah, probably a good idea. Cats. Yeah, let's go on to our next suspect. This guy has panty sol un and that was better than I could do.

Petty pet He was a maintenance man. I don't know if that meant he was a janitor, a guy who worked on things or what he was in maintenance, He maintained things, things that he'd been convicted of several violent crimes in the nineties, in the late nineteen sixties and about eight nine years after the murders, he was in jail and he confessed to the murders then. And he did happen to live near the side of the Light

Bottom murders at the time. They were committed, and they interrogated him, but his confession was not given much weight because he was really vague and cryptic, and some people said that he was a psychopath. I also there was a weird and again this maybe just kind of an oddball translation thing, but I saw the cryptic description that you were just given for in the vague and cryptic, I also saw something in combination with that of when drunk.

Oh yeah, ring around drugs. Yeah, well, a lot of people are weird and cryptic when they're drunk, and that what the heck does this mean? It's odd, it's cryptic. Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm assuming that when they asked him, well, okay, you killed him, why did you do it? And he was like, well, i'll tell you. I had my reasons, you know, something like that. I don't know. I know they're dead, and I know they're buried close to the town. Yeah. Yeah uh and as soon as my mother dies, i'll

tell you. Yeah. In nineteen sixty, he committed suicide by hanging himself, and he did have a pretty lengthy criminal history. But you know, it's hard to take this too seriously because in nineteen sixty he would have been only fifteen, so let's starting a little young. The same age as the girls. Yeah, the same age as the girls and boys are eighteen, and at that age, boys kind of

have a gross spur. And I can imagine that the eighteen year old boys would have been a little more powerful than him, but they could have gotten themselves unwrapped from a tent. It's true. You know, if there's a canvas pressing down on you and you're just woken from a slumber by something hitting you over the head, and I don't know that, you're necessarily going to immediately be like I can overpower you. You're going to be like what is going on and flail a little bit and

then like get hit again and then you're done. Yeah, he's going to be pinned in there. They're gonna be pinned inside, and he's gonna be on top of them, you know, the keys to to bash the two guys. He didn't look like he was that or Nils didn't look like he was that bit. Yeah, but he wasn't.

He wasn't bulky. Yeah, he was definitely just a tall guy. Yeah. Yeah. Also, before we go any further, I just want to go ahead and say how funny it is that while most murders, you like struggle to find even like one viable suspect, and in this one, you've got at least three people who have admitted to it. Yeah. Yeah, well that's pretty common thing. Yeah, it's common for like a bunch of people to be like, oh, yeah, no, I totally did that. Yeah.

I know a lot of a lot of people confess to crimes he didn't come in, especially if they're well known notorious. Yeah. Remember we had conversation last week about people saying I want to go down as X. Yeah, but they never actually admit to it. They always kind

of allude. But a lot of there's also this other subclass who didn't do it, don't have the stones or the capability to do it, but will claim they did it so that maybe they can get recorded in history, you know, to be remembered for knocking off at one guy and there's everybody who was involved. It's like, there's no way he could have done that. He couldn't overpower a fountain pen, but he's going to keep making the claim. There you go. Yeah, I don't know anyway, It's funny, Yeah,

I know, I just it's funny. But I don't. I don't know, I don't. I kind of doubt his story. I think a lot of people do this stuff because, like I said, they want they want attention, they want to get their name of the papers. Yeah. So oh, next up Valdemar Gilstrom. Yeah, he was one of the prime suspects. He ran a you asked, very close to the murder side, like right in the park that that was in. And I don't know what he sold in the kiosk. Could have been coffee, trinkets, I get the feeling.

Is another way to say store. Yeah, like a little tiny general store. Yeah, like they have at camps. Yeah, they typically out there, they have stuff like that. You know, people want to buy beer or pop or whatever. Right. Yeah, but he had a reputation for being irascible, for hating young people and campers and yeah, thinking the one who just hated campers. I supposedly I heard another versions of that. They hated campers, people who brought him business. He hated them. Yeah,

I don't. I experienced that in my job all the time. The people, the customers I deal with. I'm just like, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you. But oh my god, I have to deal with you. You do too, I know you talked about all the time what you're saying that. Yeah. Also there were some kids that kids at knew him. Was said he was like me to them and strow rocks at them when when they rode by on their bikes at night. Stuff. So

it was kind of a Yeah. This guy also committed suicide in nineteen sixty nine, interestingly enough, Yeah, there's a big wave of suicides. Actually, I think I think Finland has a pretty high suicide right. I'm guessing it's the daylight cycle that with people might have something to do

the hair. Yeah, I don't think that's actually, yeah, his story is that why why he's believed to be a suspect is just because of his personality, but also in the late nineteen sixties, um he confessed apparently was drunk, but he confessed to his neighbor that he had committed the murders. He confessed more than once, didn't he I think? So, Yeah, what else did he do that was suspicious? He had a well on his property and he filled in a well on the property a few days after the murders.

And is that suspicious? Well, because I thought the thought is that is that he threw the murder weapons down to the bottom of the well, then filled the well in the rocks, had the or the pipe, the pipe and the knife or the rock and the knife, and then fill it in. Well's idea. Okay, I admit I didn't take the time to actually look at the village. And I'm guessing you did this show on the map. Uh. I did, but I didn't find his house or anything. Well,

I'm just I'm trying to get an ideas. I'm guessing that everybody had their own well to pull water, but I'm guessing that well was rather old. And just because it's a well doesn't mean it's a super deep well and a very good well. People are all the time like this well. You know, it's sucks half the time, it doesn't work. I'm just gonna fill it in. Well. I would be interested to find out if he had had plans to do that before any of this ever

took place. Well, that's the whole thing is, by by this time, I'm sure there was a municipal water system in the town. Sure, and so was there. No, there was no need, no need for the well, which, let's be honest, according to Timmy, the wells are dangerous, is always in the well? Yeah, that's true. I guess my suspicious brain is like, but maybe like two days after a murder happened right near your place before, Hey, life

goes on right, not for everyone. I'm sorry. My vacation was planned and I'm taking my vacation And it's not my fault that those dumb kids got themselves killed. I got stuff to do. Well. He might have had a schedule too, he might have had a work crew can do it, and he might have had he might have had somebody deliver a bunch of dirt to him. Yeah, you know, and because he had, he had to get

dirt from somewhere, dirt, gravel, rocks, whatever. Yea. So maybe that that delivery showed up and you know, on the scheduled day. And man, so it's hard to say about if that really means much of anything. And frankly, you know a lot of people are all puzzled that the police didn't dig up the well, because everybody's saying, well, he filled it in, the weapons must be down there, but you know the police didn't do that, and people

were wondering, well, why didn't they? And I frankly, what kind of a bone head with stashes murder weapons on his own property. I actually a lot of them. Yeah, maybe just have them barry remains on their property. I mean, yeah, I know there is that. My guy. One of the most famous ones was a guy who murders his room and chopped the body up so he could fit it into a garbage can, and then he put the garbage can in his storage hit. Yeah, and then you heard

the story. Yeah, and then he didn't pay the rent. Yes, apparently forgot to pay the rag or something, and oh my god, what a bonehead. But anyway, I just don't think that he would take the weapons all the way back to his house and fill in the well when he could so easily throw them in the lake or just toss him off into the word. You know. It might have been his favorite knife, and he may have not realized what a what a stir the whole thing was going to make and then panicked. I mean, that's

a reason that he would have. I know, I'm bouncing both sides of this, but that's the reason why a guy would throw it in there. Yeah, I don't know. I guess for me, this is the one of the confessions. That kind of does it for me. All Right, you're convicted of a lot of stuff, you're in jail, you're like bragging into your friends and jail You're like, oh, yeah, no, I I totally killed those kids. Yeah. This guy like

said it to his neighbors when he was drunk one day. Like, that's a weird thing to say, knowing that the cops might come after you at any point and throw you in jail for the rest of your life, even though you were an otherwise upstanding citizen, because you said drunk one night, like, yeah, actually I killed those citizen a jerk. He does sound like a jerk, But I'm just saying like, he wasn't in other he wasn't otherwise in trouble with

the law, he wasn't already serving a life sentence. So for him to just off handedly say, oh, yeah, I did that, that's weird to me. I don't think he did it. I agree, But that of the admissions is the one that gets me. It's like, why would you let's like me just saying to you guys, oh yeah, I kidnapped this kid. Why why would I say that to you? Like people do weird stuff When they're blind drunk, though,

stuff comes out. You know how many guys in bars have told you how they were like they were like you know, Green berets and Navy seals. Yeah, and you can tell that they haven't theirs. That's a little different, totally different, that that kind of talk is not going to land you in jail. Yeah, yeah, but that's exactly what both of these are to me talk. Yeah, that's fair. Again. I don't know how the police he originally came to their attention, but they did search his house, but not

the well. His wife gave him an alibi, and so they crossed him off the list, And after his death, his wife said that she had threatened to kill her if she ever backslid on the alibi thing. So I really don't know. I find it hard to believe. I don't I don't really see a motive there. I mean, sure, he hates young people in campers, but it's a pretty brutal attack. One of the girls was stabbed like eleven

times or something like a lot of times. It wasn't just like, oh oops, I hit this one kid over the head with a rock and now I got into the rest of them in it was like you say that as if you'd that out, like, whoops, no, but the how don't remember which one it was, but she was hit over the head and that killed her and then even though she was dead. Yeah, so yeah, that's pretty brutal. Yeah, that's that. I agree. There's no I

don't see the motive there. Yeah, I don't quite get it. Then, of course, you know, I didn't know the guy our next Our next suspect is a guy named Hans asked Man. Yeah, YouTube joker. That was the only reason I was like, I don't really want to talk about this story, but I get to say ask man. Assuming that it's not how his name is pronounced. I assume it was pronounced Austin, but I don't know exactly from Austin. Yeah, you ruining our fun. Austin actually might not have been his original name.

There was one story out there that I think told by him that he's stolen a German still another officer or another German soldier's name. So let's talk about him because interesting. Well yeah, okay, so he was a German who claimed that he had served in the SS in World War Two, and then after a year in the SS, he served as a guard in Auschwitz. So just a real nice guy, really really good, nice, good good CV.

Apparently later he fell out of favor. He was dating a Jewish girl and so fell out of favor for that reason and was sent to the Eastern Front, where he was captured by the Soviets and sent to a prison camp. And at some point and during his Soviet experience, he decided to become a KGB spy. How much of this is true, I don't know, because we only have his word for it, and it doesn't sound like the

movie plot of James Bond at all. Yeah, I know, so, I It's it's amazing out there how many people say that, just you know, on web pages and stuff, just say he was a KGB spy or suspected KGB spy, when I can't think of a single reason to believe he was a KGB spy one he wasn't, even if he

wasn't even a Russian. The only reason that I ever saw that seemed even remotely plausible is that people thought that the reason he hadn't not really been investigated was because the Finnish government was scared of him actually being a KGB spy. That they like did preliminary inquiries and it was revealed that, you know, the KGB was like, hey, actually, don't look into him. And they were like, okay, yep, no, you got it, no problem, We're not going to do

anything about it. That was the only like even vaguely reasonable that I could find. I have not heard anything credible out there about this at all. The saying a little thing. I don't. I don't think they're that terrified of the Russians. I mean, obviously they've been finlandized. You don't know what that means. But they so that's sort of not exactly what the sway of the Sylvius, but

they kind of do what you know. Of course, Frankly, if I were asking questions and the KGB was like, hey, actually stop asking that, even though I'm like an American citizen, I would be like, no, yep, no, you got it. Probably probably yeah, because yeah, they've got a long they've got the long arm. Of course, of course they're all gone now, well, some of them were still around, and one of them to charge of the Russia. Doesn't charge

of Russia right now. But anyway, back to her story in the nineteen fifties, I believe it was the nineteen fifty three Auesoman moved to Finland and he was a saspect and a couple of other unstal murders there, what you guys, I'm sure we've heard about. There was Ali Sorry, was a seventeen year old girl who disappeared in May nineteen fifty three, riding her bicycle home late one night. Her body was found five months later, and it appeared that she had been killed by a blow to the

head with a blood object. Sounds familiar, Yeah, kind of kind of dust, doesn't it. Awesoman later confessed in his deathbed that he and another guy had accidentally run over a girl on a bicycle and killed her and then

disposed of the body and the bicycle death confession. Yeah, well, and and so the problem that I have with that is that I looked into this particular case and then when they found the bicycle, the bicycle, the whoever had it had taken it out into like a swamp, a swampy kind of area and put it in water, deflated the tire so it would sink, and then, of course, you know, months later, when the watered level dropped, the

bike was out. The micro sound and when they when they pulled it out, the bicycle, Um, and this was the bicycle that this girl who had been murdered was riding. The bicycle that she was riding, and it was identified as herve bicycle was in perfect condition, I mean except for except for a little bit yeah russ and stuff like that. But it wasn't bent and mangled like it

would have been. It also would it would surprise me that you could hit somebody with the car and the cause of death would be blunt force trauma to the head without any other damage, right, exactly, That's what it sounds like over the head. And that was it, Yeah, exactly, yeah, and so and so either it sounds like he might

have actually run over a girl on a bicycle. Apparently they ran over this girl and a girl on a bicycle, and he his friend hid the bicycle and the body well still could be hidden, I mean you know, I mean, yeah, it might just be an entirely different girl on a bike. So uh. And then the other murder that Ausbond was was just back and I'm not sure why, but this happen in July, and two young women were camping next

to a lake. Does that sound familiar and yeah, yeah, and uh, and they were murdered, one with the blown object and one with a knife. Is that sound familiar, Yeah, but the yeah, them was a little different though. Their bodies were taken away and hidden into marsh, hidden pretty carefully because it took a long time to find them, and all their stuff, including their bicycles or bicycles by the way, were submerged in water with the tires deflated,

just like the girl back in. Yeah. Well, I guess because I see where you're going with this, right, You're saying, like the m is different, Well, it is, But it's also not unreasonable to think these two boys kind of happened, right the first two boys that they saw the motorcycles and they thought, oh, let's go over there, and then they saw a man like walking away from the site.

It's not unreasonable to say that like the murderer was interrupted. Yeah, that like in my head, then he was in the middle of dragging people out to take them to the marsh or wherever, and that he was like, Oh, I hear people coming, I'm just gonna walk away like a normal human being and maybe they won't suspect anything, and just had to abandon the scene and not do the things he would normally do. Yeah, that's that's entirely possible. I think that, and I was gonna sit I suspect

that might be the case. Although the timing is a little off though, because they only succeeded in getting their wallets, swimsuits in their shoes but hiding them. But you would think that he would even though it doesn't get completely dark the between sunset and sunrise, that's when more people are going to be home in bed and not out hiking around the park area. So you think he wanted to want to kill them like a ten thirty eleven o'clock, and then he'd have all night to dispose of all

their stuff if it were premeditated. Certainly if he were just out on a walk, and people being out and about on a walk gives me the impression that likely, if their wallets are gone and this random person is in the killer, this random guy is just a thief

who's gotten no scruples. Yeah, guess they don't need that's also not it's not unlikely that that happened as well, but that would be I guess my argument for the It seems like you can explain the fact that they weren't submerged in March March, that he had just been interrupted and decided to not return. That would be the smart thing to do. You walk away and you don't come back to try and finish it. You just say,

all right, that's it. Well you remember remember this too, is that the two girls on who are who were actually who are hit or who were murdered on this I don't know, And all this stuff was taken away and hidden away they found they found it scattered all around in the woods. So he could have been mid process. Yeah, it could have been. And also, uh, it's it's entirely possible that this guy comes along and he hasn't actually sees his tents. That's a small pup tent, sees two

motorcycles leading inst treat. I think there's a guy and girl probably or maybe two guys, who knows, but it thinks it's just two people. He thinks the cleanup process is going to be simpler and easier than what it actually turned out to be. Yeah, and so it might have bead. I mean, it's that the crimes are very similar in many ways. Are the only thing that I mean, you're you're tying the murder of these two women together, and the girl, the one who Osmond said he hit. No,

I'm not. I'm not necessarily tying her murder together. One of the things that you said that was similarities was the deflated bike tires. Yeah, the way Joe had said it, it it kind of sounded like the deflated tires was a key link between them, and I just not not. I don't think that that's it came that way to me, And I was like, I don't think that's a good okay,

we're golden. Yeah that you know, I'm thinking that that case is a little more random than this one that happened that this one that happened with two women that happened not that far north northeast, really, and it's a similar Demokay, Like I said, he may he may have been interrupted at the same time, could have been totally every later time Osmond, he didn't he like show up in a hospital that morning, Well, yeah, the day after the murders, Osman went to the Helsinki Surgical Hospital And

I don't know why. And this is again one of the frustrating things about this is if I could if I could read some finish, then I could probably get a little more detail on exactly what purpose he had in showing up. But his claimed the doctor's claimed that his behavior was odd, that he tried to lie about his name, tried to give a fake name, and his fingernails were black and I don't know if that means that they were bruised, or if they had dirt under

the fingernails or exactly what. And there were red stains on his clothes. And he was also reported the aggressive and nervous. Um my favorite detail on that. That sentence always reads throughout the internet through translations everything. Um, he pretended to be unconscious, Yeah, but he was actually aggressive and nervous, which is so here to me. I left that. I left it because that was so nonsensical. I totally left that out. Gonscious. It's like, I mean, really, but

that's like, that's like playing possum. Even wouldn't surprise me that much that he would show up, you know, in this kind of disheveled state and be like really nervous and kind of aggressive, and you know, somebody would come in to question him and he'd just be like, no, I'm unconscious, No, I can't answer your question, No, I'm not responsive, it's fine, And then you know, they would like, you know, poke him or something, and he'd go, oh, I mean no, I'm unconscious. Have you ever seen anybody

trying to pretend to be It doesn't work out. I see people seriously trying to pull it off. It is so bad, so funny. Yeah, anyways, I just thought we should add that because it's hilarious. It is. Yeah, I think it's funny too. The but these are some of the reasons people like him as a suspect. Because he's all covered in red stuff and everything. And also he had blonde hair that was a little bit, a little

bit long, ash like the murderer. And after the description of the murderer made the news because of the hypnosis and also the two the two kids that saw him, that saw the murder from behind everything, he uh, he cut his hair. Yeah, yeah right. The news started reporting the description of the guy they were looking for, and Osman immediately was like, ah, I'm going to cut all my hair, cut my blonde locks off for no reason, in particular because I'm board of it. Yeah yeah. Next

next on the list of damning damning neils in his coffin. Uh, he lived within three kilometers of Lake Bottom. Yeah, and didn't his clothes also led the clothes that he showed up at the hospital, weren't they very similar to the clothes that they described him in supposedly? Yeah, And I'm not sure if that If that's the description of the clothes that he was wearing that day, looked like the clothes that were described by Nils under hypnosis or by

the boys, Yeah, And I had no idea. I think actually I read in the transcript of the hypnosis questioning Nils did describe that those clothes, but I never saw anywhere if the boys had described that, it would be interesting to see if they described them differently. But um, but Nils described it was like being dark, like wearing a dark sweater, like a dark plaid sweater, I think a dark sweater or a sweater with spots or patterns

or something like that. So it's hard to see how how blood would really show up on that very well at all. So and also, by the way, blood when it dries, it turns brown, so it's not red. Yeah, I know. And also if those red stains on Osmin's clothes were actually blood, then why did he walk away more than why did you walk around more than twenty four hours wearing a blood stained shirt? Because he was crazy. Crazy showed up and he seemed like very mentally disturbed.

I was going to say, he's not necessarily crazy as much as he was playing with chemicals in some way, shape or form. There's a lot of chemicals that turn your fingernails black. For the only one, the one that comes up to mind is like, um, developing film photography people you know you do their photography people when you're developing film. You know, it's it's a known thing. I think it's the silver or the nitritic camera what it is,

but it does that. But there's also chemicals that you can splash on yourself that come out different colors, and you're not supposed to be huffing those things. But he could have been doing something on chemicals. And the official report they interviewed his because he had an alibi that was okay. His alibi was either that he was with his girlfriend or he was with his girlfriend's sister. But the landlords also said, oh, yeah, I know he is totally here. And then they said, but he woke up

really early to paint something red. That's why he had splashes of red all over him. Yeah, I mean, you know again, it was more than twenty four hours after the merger. It's just still that weirdness of like, why did he show up? Why was he at the hospital. I'm more inclined to go with Steve's theory of like playing with chemicals, and because he was not feeling good, he would explain some of the mental thing. Would you explain the erratic behavior. They explained the colors to the

red colored shirt too. And as far as this cutting his hair, that's not that suspicious because a lot of people get haircuts. I guess the way I understood it in the storytelling was that like he heard somebody talking about this is what the killer looked like, and thought, ah, I betta cut my hair. It wasn't just like a random getting your hair cut situation. I don't know. I'm sure there's a lot of people who do that who are kind of shady. Better not looked like that dude,

Yeah my head, well exactly. Yeah, and he does look like a crazy person. Oh he does a little bit, and uh yeah yeah, and supposedly awesome confess to the murders on his deathbed. According to a finished guy that I saw and Reddit. Yeah, but I don't know if he's maybe confusing that confession about the confession about running the girl over on the bike. I don't know that read it was a bit confusing. Yeah, okay, so much for ask Man. I think that I don't really think

that this guy is a strong suspect. You guys know, Yeah, I mean, I guess he's appealing, I think for me, like of the suspects, yes, yeah, but I don't think any of them are good. No, not really, and especially the next one. The next one. Yeah, here's our last suspect, Nils Gustafson, the survivor loan survivor. Yeah, four years almost fourth year, almost forty four years after the murders. He was arrested in two thousand four and put on trial

for the murders. The prosecution's theory was that he became jealous of Irmani, of Irmali and Seppo and erupted into rage and that probably fueled by booze. Apparently apparently they were drinking they did. Yeah. Their theory is that Irmalley was stabbed fifteen times, which was many, many more times than the others. Were stabbed, and that the sexual jealousy

and rage could have could have could have explained that. Uh. And then the prosecution also theorized that Niel's injuries were probably sustained in the struggle with the others, probably especially with Seppo. Uh. He probably Seppo bashed un John broke his jaw and you know when somebody else hit him with a rock and everything, but he managed to prevail with a knife and kill everybody they were intent. Yeah, apparently there there was some blood in DNA evidence and

stuff that gave them reason to believe it was Nils. Weird. He was bleeding all over because he had been knocked in the head and his DNA happened to be all over. I don't I don't know exactly what their evidence was because because they never found the weapons, right, he found his fingerprints on the handle of the knife, like the scene, but like, what are they talking about? And for forty some fifty years now people have been going into the Lake us In searching for the weapons metal detectors and

I was just digging around in it. Yeah, though I would not expect if it was a rock that was a blown instrument. Probably that's in the lake. Oh yeah, yeah, it's in the lake. But but then why would you throw it in the lake? It would be too easy to find. I guess like more than that, right, Like his injuries were the people who are touting this theory say like he was minimally injured, Like, no, he was not minimally really severely injured. And then both of their

shoes were over. You know the fact that the shoes in the Waltons missing, just the shoes at the in the end, really all you have to use as the shoes. They were so far away if he had been that injured, and then he had to have been that injured while everyone was still alive, and then to bash all their heads in and then stab somebody fifteen times and then

move the shoes and then pass out, like what. There was something like there was something about the prosecution's case that they were sure he did it because there was blood on his shoes, and I got the impression it was bloody footprints in the site. But it just was it's nonsensical to me that thing I saw, right, They were like, oh, and then he gave himself those injuries. It was like, no, Okay, I can actually I can

actually see a truthful on wacko doing that. Think about it, how do you get yourself that hard and heads first into a tree to break your jaw and then and then find a rock, turn around and just dead man fall into it. Would have found the rock there, then, well, I'm us saying it's possible to do that. People have done this weird crap before. It would be an amazing

active will have to be able to do something. He would have to have been complete and total, cold blooded nut job killer, and that probably would have come out in the last four years. Yeah, yeah, unless he's just been taking it out on hapless hamsters. Yeah, I don't know, but it's well, it's more than I don't buy it. Yeah, now I don't either. But back yeah, back to the

shoes though too. I mean, it couldn't possibly have been him, because remember when he had no reason to take the shoes somewhere else and and not and by the way, not hide them too terribly thoroughly because they were found fairly readily. But then again, the problem was is that his whole story would have been I was knocked unconscious, but people might have seen him walking to and from

this place. I mean, it was you know, it was about one point six kilometers around trip to go to this place where he left the shoes and walk back. And even if he had he was keeping an eye out for people. Uh, and just you know, he was going to duck behind a tree if somebody showed up, Well, somebody still might see you without you even knowing it. So it's a huge risk. It's a huge risk to want to do this with the shoes. So I just don't think Nils was a murderer. And I think that, Yeah,

bad theory. No, it's a really bad shame. I hadn't wonder he didn't go through. Yeah, well he was acquitted in two thousand five and the Finnish government gave him about forty five thousand euros in compensation for his period of jail time. Yeah, it was probably wasn't enough. No, not really. And I've got a few I've got one other possibility here, which is that there was, as I said, a similar killing just a year before, less than a year.

Was this a serial killer? But if if it was a serial killer, why did he stop moved on and moved on? Maybe he switched to just killing single people at a time, that kind of thing. Um, maybe he got run over by a bus transient labor. Yeah, he moved on. You want to a different place. Yeah, you know, if you just every year or so kill some local and then shift on with the changing work tides, Yeah, nobody's gonna find you. I mean, that's how there's so

many of them. Like the truckers. You stop because I have to walk to my car. I gotta tell you one thing that that's entirely possible. This guy was a serial killer and he just changed his m Oh. Yeah. That's the thing about serial killers is that they have a pattern, you know, and so pretty. But if you what if you're a killer and you change your pattern every time, If your pattern is to change every time,

that would be the hardest to track. Or your pattern is right, this pattern of hide everything, and you get caught halfway through like he did during this and realize, Oops, that's not a great pattern. Let me do something else. Yeah. Maybe, yeah, it could have been that, And Frank, I don't think. I don't know they would have what the point of hiding everything was. By the time these murders were committed to the Lake Bottom murders, and that they had pretty

much found from the previous year. Those the murder of those two women. They'd found the bodies, they had found their bicycles, they had found most of their stuff in the woods. So he had to have known that. There's really kind of pointless. But yeah, I did take a year that that's that does retard the investigation. That's a good point. Yeah, but it could have been the same guy. I don't know. But the shoes, the shoes are really the killer clue here, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, try

to be alright. No, I don't have anybody that I really I want to point a finger at now. I don't think, but I do think it's I'm pretty convinced that Nils did not do it. Definitely, not definitely. I'm definitely in the camp he did not do it. Yeah. Yeah. And so as for the rest of that, I think somebody got some pressure from up top to put a

case together. Well, yeah, I don't know, I don't I don't know what evidence the police have, you know, what DNA evidence they have that convinced them that Nils was guilty. But again, but it didn't, it didn't hold up in court. Obviously it was pretty weak evidence. Obviously it was insufficient. Yeah, so I think Nils was innocent. So anyway, that's about it. You guys asked for this. They wanted to hear us

talk about a thing that we have nothing to add to. Actually, you know what Joe and I were talking about this earlier. I think I figured out why all of our top stories are top stories is because we just didn't want to do them, so they keep. You know, they all have a pretty common thread, which is there's just enough evidence to know what's going on, but there's not quite enough evidence to pin down where it's going. And it's that perfect storm of information and lack of that just

gets you the imagination going. And I'm because I've looked through the rest of the list after I figured this out like that, Like that's that's why these are so popular. It's so easy to just lose yourself in the one if well, I have something to tell you, guys, Actually I committed the Lake Bono murders. Is that the deal? Yeah? It's actually that you know that portrait I have in my house that looks like an old lady. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got one of those two and it didn't work

for me. For me, actually two, the one of the old lady looks like a space alien. All right, you guys, any final thoughts or should we wind this down? I think we're pointed up, sir. Okay, you're probably wondering if we have a website. Well, it turns out we do. It's called Taking Sideways podcast dot com. And you can listen to episodes to check our links. We do post links and stuff like that, and also leave comments, of course, hopefully polite positive comments. We're on iTunes, of course, you

can subscribe. You can leave us a review, which would be great, preferably five stars. You can stream us from anywhere of a like a million websites, so go find one. That's easy. We're also on Facebook, the Thinking Sideways Facebook friend us, like us, follow us, yeah, oh yeah. We have a Patreon group us. Right. We're on Twitter, We're Thinking Sideways, that's without the g. We have an email address believe it or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Thinking Sideways

Podcast at gmail dot com. And also, if you're so inclined, we're on Patreon Patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways, where if you want to, uh, you know, pledge a certain amount of money per episode, you don't have to, not at all, but if you feel like it, we can find us out there anyway. That's about it. You guys have any more like you know, murder punds or anything like that talk about Okay, alright, I think we've we've poked it to it. Yeah, pretty much. Okay, so we're

gonna stick a fork in this one. Goodbye everybody later, Hi, guys,