Thinking Sideways: The Grimes Sisters

to talk to. I really want to find out what those dogs have to say. There's gonna be other podcasts there that deal with crime just like us, so there's gonna be great panels. I think we're gonna be on a panel, so you should definitely come. As a special offer to our listeners, we have a promo code of Sideways twenty to get off your registration fee. So go to crime con dot com and register today and we can't wait to see you guys in June. Thinking Sideways.

I don't know stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways, the podcast. I'm Devin joined as usual by also known as Squinty Quincy McGhee over there. Yeah, oh sorry, I'm now going by squirrel. Oh, Squinty and squirrel. Just to case you're wondering, I'm I'm just messing with Devin by squinting, and it really hard suspiciously calling you squinty. You didn't give that away at all. Yeah, Today we're

gonna talk about mystery, not cooking. We're going to talk about a mystery that was suggested in two thousand fourteen by Hunter and then by literally every single one of you since then. So what was that very beginning all the time ago. Yeah, world, it's true and yeah, um, so we're going to talk about the disappearance and subsequent murder of the Grimes sisters this year, this year, this week. I mean, we can do it all year. I mean we are doing it this year. It is happening this year.

Sorry to be a good episode, you guys, just getting ready for it. So if you don't know, quick overview is that on December nineteen fifty six, Barbara and Patricia Grimes, who are aged fifteen and thirteen, respectively, disappeared, and then they were found dead on January nineteen fifty seven in a shallow ditch on the side of the road near Chicago. Okay, yeah, this is two Chicago shows in a row for you. Yeah, it's actually to Silas Jane episodes in a row in

a row. Yeah, you know. Oh, we'll get those ratings up. Guys, got a pump it. Let's back up a little bit. Give a little contexts about Chicago. When Chicago founded, well, Chicago was founded in when Columbus sailed the ocean blow right, that's how that. Okay, No, for seriously, the Grime sisters lived with their mom, their older brother and sister, and

their younger siblings. There were a lot of siblings, and frankly, I've never seen exactly how many kids were in this family, but they were one of there were two of many. There were at least five. I think there were at least five to Yeah, and they were you know, working class neighborhood called McKinley Park, which is kind of south and west of downtown Chicago. It's not a suburb, it's the neighborhood of Chicago. I get. I mean, I just take for granted that people understand how big cities work.

But I us. It's possible that they don't. It's that, you know, most of them have kind of neighborhoods within, have their own names, and you can even just google like McKinley Park, Illinois and it comes up. I did it today. Yeah, and it's probably the address officially probably is Chicago. It is in Chicago. There's a lot of that going on right here. Yeah, solidly in Chicago. It's about halfway to Midway Airport on m I ninety. It's not on MY ninety, but in that sort of way

if you're familiar with the Chicago area at all. Anyway, the girls who were predictably for the time into the King Mr Elvis Presley himself, Yeah and um. On the night of their disappearance, the girls were attending a double feature showing of the Elvis film Love Me Tender, And apparently who cares what the second film was, because it was Loved Me Tender. I think the second was the Elvis this film Loved Me to Death. I don't think so. No, it was a movie where Elvis played the serial killer.

I can't remember now. I don't know. I'm not an aficionatto of Elvis films, and may surprise you to know, given that I was not a teenage girl in the fifties, which is weird. It is weird that I wasn't. It's true. This was actually their fifteenth viewing of this film, apparently. Yeah, that's a lot of times. You know, young people I've noticed have a much bigger tolerance for repetition. Yeah, better capacity typically, though you you observed that in younger people

are in single digits of the age. Yeah, you know, I want to watch Thomas the Train again kind of repetition, not go to the movie theater. Well, you know, it's the time, it's the equivalent. Baby. Well, I was going to say, it's you know, fifteen and thirteen is a time of certain sexual awakenings. And you know, when you've got Elvis in this love film, I can understand how maybe that would be and you do a lot, and maybe that was just a good way for them to

get out of the house. That's exactly what I was going to say. So they I think they walk to the theater. Every report says they got to Nobody knows how they got to the theater, but they only had two dollars and fifteen cents on them. Although if you see on some web pages two dollars and yeah, either way, it's like about twenty three dollars adjusted for inflation today's money. Yeah, and obviously this is keeping in mind also that you know, the cost of film, even adjusted for inflation, has gone

up quite dramatically. You know, when I was a kid, I don't want to date myself too much, but movies in general, even first round ones, were not as exorbitantly expensive, even adjusted for you know, yeah, I personally blame Michael Bay. Yeah, yeah,

I mean a Star Wars actually Star Wars. Actually they actually bumped ticket prices for the original Star Wars and and and every movie after that was yes, what Yeah, so twenty three dollars was not nothing, but it wasn't It wasn't a ton of money, especially for both of them. It was about enough for them to for their film. Yeah, sorry,

the equivalent of three dollars. So the two fifteen is enough for them to pay for their movie tickets, they're double feature tickets, get some popcorn for themselves, and then catch the bus home. Um, but probably not enough for them to have also taken the bus there. But maybe the movie started. It was like a seven o'clock start or something like that, wasn't it. It was a seven thirty start, and then there was the intermission at yeah, and then the then the double feature ended at like

eleven eleven thirty ish, which is is late um night. Yeah, I don't think it probably was. It was, you know, December. They were probably on break. Yeah, it's kind of hard to imagine sitting through a double feature today. I did it all the time as a kid. I So the last time I saw double feature was on my sixth For my sixteenth birthday, my mom and I took a road trip and we were went to a drive in and we saw a double double feature of Finding Nemo and Pirates of Caribbean. So if that ages me, there

you go dates me. Now, you know exactly how land because nobody knew until this moment exactly how old I was. I am super old. Yeah. Yeah, Okay, So they the girls did arrive safely at the movie theater, sure we know that for sure. They actually were seated in front of a friend, Dorothy and her younger sister. Dorothy reports the girls were enjoying the film. They got popcorn around at intermission time, you know, let's all go to the

lobby to know that they were enjoying the film. Yes, suspiciously. All she could see was the back of their heads. I presumed they were enjoying it together, all of them. And then their mother, her name was Loretta, had been told by the girls, we're just gonna go see the one, the first movie, and then we'll come straight home. But she, being their mother, knew better and said they're gonna stay for the whole thing, So she was expecting them home

around eleven. Girl. Also, I think you just get caught up in it, you know, you just, um, you think, oh my friends are here, it's upcorn, and you think my ask just doesn't quite hurt enough. Yes, it through another one. Yeah, but midnight rolled around, and um, the girls still weren't home, and so Loretta started to get worried and sent her two elder children to wait at the bus stop for the girls. And apparently three busses

went past, none of them carrying the sisters. So at about two fifteen am, Luretta called the cops and reported the girls missing. From there, there are a lot of reported sightings, and we're just gonna go ahead and talk about all of them. Yeah, I'm not sure how credible. A lot of them are not very credible, but we're going to talk about all of them anyway. Well, what the hell? Yeah, why not? Yeah, got to fill this episode with Yeah, frankly, after this, well, let's tend to

roll the credits. Just kid, I'm just kidding. There's a lot to talk about here. So that night, quote unquote numerous people. It's never or I've never seen how many people other than their friends that they sat in front of. Well, numerous people reported seeing them on a c T A bus. Oh okay, sorry, and I was still back in the theater in Chicago Transit Authority. Yep, heading east, which would have been the opposite. It would have been heading home

for them, Yeah, kind of home. Yeah, so that's probably accurate. Yep. But they may or may not have gotten off that bus at Western Avenue at eleven o five pm, which was only about halfway to their house on the bus. Two teenage boys reported that they were driving in a neighborhood and saw the two girls at about eleven thirty heading east on thirty five Avenue in good spirits, jumping out of doorways at each other and giggling that which that would have been about two blocks from their house.

It sounds like they that I'm I'm happy to accept that they almost made it home then almost made it home. However, an L train conductor said that he saw the girls get off a train at the glen View stop that night. Glen View is a suburb of Chicago to the north near Palatine, which, of course you might remember Palatine from a recent episode. And um, it's about twenty miles northeast of their home in McKinley Park. So that one I'm

a little questioning there. I was gonna say, we should stop for just a quick second here because we're going to have a little bit of this going on, and just say, we've got two girls, fifteen and thirteen, their teenage girls. They're of average height, one's got short hair, one's got longer hair. They're blonde. Were they blonde? Light brown hair? It's always hard to tell because they're black

and white photos. So I was never sure. Yeah, I mean they're, but they're you know, there's it's not as if they have any crazy distinguishing, you know, unique features about them. They look like most young teenage girls all the time exactly, which is why I think of all of these sidings were not necessarily which is why I wanted to point that out. I would agree with that. And they were kind of short. Barbara was the oldest. She was five ft one I heard, and Patricia was

five ft three, even though she was two years younger. Yeah, Barbara was tremendous. Yeah, no, I mean my height. Yes. Yeah. Also the night of a security guard claimed that two girls asked him for directions. Well, I guess it was like early in the morning on the twenty nine, It was about two am. He said that the girls asked him for directions, and he was stationed at Central and Lawrence at the bus station there, which is about fifteen

miles away from their home at McKinley Park. On the evening of December twenty nine, classmate of Patricia reported seeing Patricia and two unidentified girls, neither of whom wore Barbara walked past the diner that she was having dinner at. The diner was Ian McKinley Park, And UM, I don't really know what time that was. I presumed dinner ish time. That question. It's hard to say. By the way, she

reports that immediately that evening, I believe so. Yeah, although I don't think she you know, turned to her parents or anything and said, look, I don't know if she push her parents or what, but she did report that pretty quickly. On December, at two days after the disappearance, at five forty am, the owner of a restaurant called the D n L claimed to have seen both girls with one of his dishwashers named Benny Bedwell. Reports are

that Patricia was appeared to be drunk or sick. Um. She was so kind of messed up and disoriented that she wasn't able to walk without help. Yeah, I mean sick or drunk. She needs She was staggering and kind of needed help walking. A clerk at the Claremont Hotel claimed that the girls briefly stayed at his hotel. There's no dates associated with the stay, but I presume it was before the New Year. And I also wasn't able

to find the location of the Claremont Hotel. As far as I can tell, the Claremont Hotel is like a chain today today, and the only one that comes up when you Google is in California, So I'm pretty sure it wasn't the one in California, but I wasn't able to find any historic data about where it was. It's a little weird. You know, your clerk at a hotel and these two young girls come up and want to want a room. It's well funny you should say that,

because we'll talk about that in a second. But I'm just trying to do these chronologically, so pause on that comment for a second. On January one, there were reports that the girls were on a C T A train on Demon Avenue. Demon runs north south pretty much the whole length of Chicago, so I'm I'm not totally sure where where hand me a dart. On January second, a hotel clerk at the Unity Hotel said he refused two girls notching their description a room because they were too young.

And this hotel clerk is reported picked the girls out of a photo, like identified them from a photo and said, those are the two girls that I denied to. Of course, their photos had already been put published in the paper. Yes, oh yeah. On January three, three employees say the girls were in their department store listening to Elvis albums. It was a Krusky department store, which are now called kmarts. You know, actually, Untell, you research the story for us.

I did not know that kmart had evolved. I didn't either. I didn't either, And Steve found the location of that. I in my research wasn't able to find. The closest one I could find was in Michigan. But that is wrong. So it's do you remember what the it's downtown, downtown, downtown Chicago. Yeah, it's about a mile and half northeast of where the south and the north legs of the Chicago River meet, makes sense, So it's kind of in

that city city center area. Yeah, downtown, Yeah. Yeah. There was a report in Nashville of the girls from a woman who said that she met them at a bus station and went with them to a state employment agency as they were looking for work. She recalled them having used the name Grimes and apparently was able to identify them from their photos. But again, the photos we're circulating nationwide at this point, but nobody at the state employee

agency recalled meeting them. Apparently, No, it's just this one woman. And then on January fourteen, Patricia's friend Sandra's parents got to phone calls around midnight. I'm not sure if it was the midnight the four teen, their midnight, I don't know which it does not that it really matters that much. But the first call was just silence, and then the second one was placed about fifteen minutes later with a quote frightened and depressed unquote voice on the other end

asking is that you Sandra? Is Sandra there? But the caller hung up before Sandra's mother could get Sandra. Um. But the mom is pretty sure that it was Patricia calling. Okay, So that's all the sightings. So I suspect there's a lot of power of suggestion in a lot of these settings. I would say that's true. Yeah, and the vast majority

of them, probably, if not all of them. Yeah, that's not unusual, No, especially when like a nationwide hunt is one on January twenty second, nineteen fifty seven, so almost a month after the girls did Yeah, almost a month. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Okay. Uh. Leonard Prescott, who was a local construction worker guy, was driving along German Church Road, which is like two hundred feet away from being in Willow Springs, Illinois.

And Willow Springs is a small village that's like west of Chicago, which I'm sure as part of Chicago today. It's not, actually, it's still not. No, it's still a village, and it's about twenty miles southwest of McKinley Park down or Interstate fifty five. I don't remember what they call it in Chicago. We call it, we would call it. If Leonard is driving home and spots some naked bodies on the side of the road behind the guardrail, he didn't.

He actually said he thought they were mannequins. At yeah, he just saw some like naked like whatever's there human forms, And so he kept driving home, and the more he thought about it, the more he thought, I should go No, I I had better go back and look. So he collected his wife, Marie and from home. She wasn't a collector's item, no, no, no, ha ha No. He got her from home and they both got in the car and drove back to where he thought he had seen

these mannequins. And then somebody had Dniel switcheroo and they weren't mannequins. They weren't mannequins anymore. Um No, it was their naked bodies. And actually apparently the site of it was so horrific to Marie that she fainted on site. So they, of course, being good human beings, called the authorities. Leonard actually was very wise to do what he did

by not just stopping. If he if I'm driving along and I'm near my home and I think I see a couple of naked bodies on the side of the road, I'm gonna go get somebody to find them with so that I am not spotted being The person next to said, oh, yeah, especially because you know these are the pre cell phone days, so then you have to like leave to call somebody. So if you're spotted standing there and then you leave, even if you're going to call the authority, that is

going to look probably not great. Right, Well, it looks a little hanky, But then that's why you don't doddle you get that phone call. Yeah. Yeah, So both girls were naked and dead. That probably goes without saying. Barbara was laid over on her left side with her legs slightly drawn up to her body, and Patricia was laying on her back covering Barbara's head kind of laying on to basically her body was partially on top of the Yeah, and it was deemed really likely that they had just

been dumped there from a passing car. Yeah, they were just dump there's a bit there's a rail and it slopes down kind of it does look that. I'm sure the car stopped, but yeah, they were pretty unceremony ceremonious about it. It's one of those metal guard rails, you know, the ones. It's got two humps in it. Yeah, and there's there's the photograph. There's a photograph of it out of the web, although it's extremely low res. But you can't see it if you really wanted to. But yeah,

you don't really need to. We've already described it. We have. Yeah, and you know the Wikipedia article at the bottom, you know that always says like suggested posts, and one of them is murders and one of them is dump jobs, which is the thing app like like the accepted nomenclaitcher for this, So there you go. Experts disagree heavily on

the time of death for the Grime sisters. The experienced pathologists who performed the initial autopsy said that, due to the contents of their stomachs and the likely portions of their last known meals, they likely died within twenty four hours of their disappearance um but even more likely within five hours of leaving the theater, so they would have

died late December or early December nine. Sounds about right, unless unless they're their kidnappers, like fed them the exact same you know, which was some eggs, are not egg some potato dish and I can't remember what it was now, Yeah, it was just some and then they had popcorn, and then I think they had a chocolate chip cookie and they had popcorn, and yeah, I mean it's not something

that would have been terrible. I mean, it's not as though they had dinner, you know, right then it would have been pretty well digested stuff in their stomach or their inners, and yeah. Um. But at the time, the chief investigator to the coroner's office, whose name was Harry

gloss Uh, he disagreed adamantly. He was sighting the bodies and they were found with a thin layer of ice on them, and he argued that the girls would have had to have been alive until at least the seventh of January, given that only after the seventh there was enough snowfall to react with any latent body temperature to melt the snow to refreeze into a little sheet of

ice on their bodies. I kind of questioned his analysis, but I actually think that there might be a little bit logic to it, and he might have an interesting angle. And I don't know if you want to talk about this now or if this is going to come up in theories at all. You always ask that question, like I know what you are going to talk about. Uh, yeah,

we can talk about it. I'll just mentioned briefly before we talk about it that there also wasn't sufficient snowfall or other ring to hide the bodies until after the seventh not that that means that they had to have died there, except for that maybe because their official cause

of death was secondary shocked due to exposure. So you know, the theory is that they died from exposure after being dumped there, and that you know, glosses theory is like, no, there would have been no way that nobody saw these bodies for a month if they were laying here, and also that ice wouldn't have formed on them. So so the only the only thing I'm going to say is that he makes the assumption that the ice has to

form because of latent body heat. It is possible that the girls died of some of exposure somewhere and some creep oh kept him in his basement or something, and then well just somewhere. But then they're they're not they're not frozen, So they're in his car, they're kind of that room temperature, and then when he dumps him outside at that point, they're going to have some residual heat from the environment they were in prior to being deposited

over the side of the guard rail. That's the only thing is that it's like he just he said they had to be alive because of but he might have hit on something. He might have just been looking at it in the wrong way. Well, there is the reason I don't buy that question is that there wasn't actually

a lot of any decomposition to speak of. So if they've been kept around a room temperature for that length of time they would have been in, the bodies would have been in much much worse shape than they were in, which is why I kind of support the theory that they were murdered sometimes like right after they disappeared and just kept in a deep prieze somewhere like a meat locker or something, and then eventually taken out and dumps, you know, and probably probably waiting for the first snow

and then and just saying, hey, this would be an opportunity time to dump the bodies because they'd be covered with snow for a while. Yeah, but I do have that I do agree with Gloss that it's a little weird they words. But to Joe's point of somebody keeping them in the deep freeze, the bodies were so frozen that they had to be taken to the Emmys and let's sit around for a while the frost. No, no, I don't agree with that. At least a day, I

thank you. Yeah, it is just interesting that there was that thin layer of ice that formed on their skin. And again, you know, for anybody who's thinking this, because my first reaction was like, well, yeah, if they were kept in a freeze, of course there would be ice on their bodies. No, no, yes, there would be ice on it. But the ice crystal is not an ice sheet. Yeah, and the ice sheet could have only formed in their

current positions. And if they were just sumariously dumped, you know, they had been transported and dumped somewhere, so to that. But same time, I mean, you know, I mean we have around here we get a little snow and then it thaws a little bit and it freezes again, and then we'll get that are all the time around here

freezing about yeah about everywhere? Yeah yeah, yeah, so but I still think, yeah, they probably died shortly after they were kidnapped and then and as to the cause of death, I read one analysis by a guy who claims to have been working on the case is a cold case for well, I said that one of the things you don't hear about is that there was actually bruising on both of their cheeks. There was, which is consistent with somebody put a clamp in a hand over their faces

and smothering them to death. Yeah, there was a lot of bruising on their bodies, but apparently no obvious fatal wounds. Yeah, I know, this is just a little bruising on their cheeks, which would be consistent with just somebody forcefully holding his hand over their face. Yeah, which is totally possible. Barbara's body had three puncture wounds in like her chest area that were likely from an ice pick, which I'm not sure why we're not classifying that as obvious fatal wounds,

but hey, I'm not a corner so okay. But the girls of note, the girls didn't have anything to indicate intoxication of any time, including poisoning. The bodies, like I said, had some bruising, and they did have rodent bites. It's not clear when the rodent bites happened, though most people think it probably happened in the time that they were dumped. Well, yeah, it's it was slight, it was slightly wooded, and you're gonna have rats and raccoons and all those little critters

who were going for the soft bits first. Yeah, and they did kind of go I was gonna say they went for the faces first. And I will also say that while neither of the girls reportedly had signs of rape, at least Barbara likely had sex around the time of her death. Yeah, apparently that was. There was no evidence of any forcible rape and either want of them. And Barbara did have sperm in her body, so that could just meet she had sex with her boyfriend a few

days before. It's hard to say, yeah, it could have been. Yeah, it's yeah, yep. And you were thinking necrophilia there for a second, weren't you. I was just trying to do the math of like how long duced that they can live as long as like five days in a woman's body.

But that's probably that's but I also don't know, But I also don't know how, like how you would know necessarily how old I mean she died, especially at that time, you know, yeah, the dating of it, and if she's been dumped and sitting there for twenty some days, I mean that, especially in the fifties, it becomes very hard to get very exact of Oh well, this is was obviously two days old before. Yeah, it would be almost impossible. I think that they found some, but god knows when

it got there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. In May of nineteen fifty seven, So five months after their bodies were found, Loretta got a call from a man who said that he knew who had killed her daughters and that he had helped undress them. The caller also told Loretta something that she found very startling. Quote, I know something about your little girl that no one else knows but you, not even the police. That's never been in the papers. The smallest girls toes were crossed on both her feet.

Barbara was the smallest girl, and apparently, yes, her toes were crossed on both her It was a deformity, and everybody agrees that was not something that anybody other than the killer or you know, anybody who knew her personally, but like what yeah, but like what a seriously deranged troll, Like that's a troll. Yeah, but people like there are tons of people like that, and this she got multiple callers calling her and taunting her for quite a while.

It was it wasn't she you know, you hear the stuff of I recognized his voice, but there was From what I've read in the old newspapers, she can at least three distinct weirdos calling her and saying god awful stuff. Yeah, but this one did stand out because it, I mean, this person clearly knew something about her daughter that not

a lot of people knew. I mean, like realistically, I remember in my gym classes, like I couldn't tell you if any of my girls that I went to gym class with had like weird toes like you're not it's one of those. It's one of those deleos. And we all know this. We've been to high school or gym class. You could go your entire time and nobody would ever notice. But if one jerk does notice and they pointed out everybody, and everybody's going to be like looking at your toes

from that on. Yeah, but it does sound like I mean, I think this was widely reported, right that, like no one knew this, so that was why. And I try, I guess maybe I believe the best in people, but I believe that if everybody in school knew that she had cross toes, at least one of the friends would have comported and said no, no, no, everybody in our

high school knew, like everybody knew about that. They wouldn't necessarily just say I mean I would if I if somebody said and only three people knew about this thing, and I was like, no, we all knew about it, I would tell that person just to like change the scenario. Though it's entirely possible, as at our our troll caller worked for the emmy's office or worked at the funeral home, or a friend of a friend of a friend forgot, you know, knew somebody who got drunk and and let's

slip something that worked in one of those places. I mean, there are some very simple, not directly involved ways, and not just the high school theory, that that information could have slowly seeped out and somebody grabbed it and was such a guess, but it's like even weirder to me that, like an Emmy would be like, oh yeah, you know that double murder case that we found. You know what was weird about that that girl had cross toes? You know,

like that's weird to me too. People people sit around and talk about their work and they talk about their case, and this is the case. The thing that nobody ever talked about was. I mean, it happens. I mean, it's not supposed to happen, but people are human, and details slip that a lot of that stuff gets circulated more widely than you think. I mean, her doctor was probably where the condition, and who knows, a night janitor might have rooted around the people's medical files, you know what

I mean, God knows. Yeah, that's true, especially if they're the kind of person to call a woman who just had two of her daughters murdered. They're probably not, you know, worried about. Yeah, but I do think I think it could have been or his accomplice or somebody who just knew. Yeah, maybe it wasn't even maybe he wasn't even there. Yeah, Yeah, but I think that that one call is pretty weird. Yeah, And we'll talk about why that call is weird in a little bit. Okay, when we get to theorious crush

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We won't tell, and we're back. Now, let's talk about theory. Well, there's a lot of theories in this one well kind of yeah, and one thing, one thing that I'm just gonna go ahead and say right off the bat, and that's the thing that has bothered me about this case and probably why I didn't really want to do it for a while, is that there's a lot of theories about like who's the murderer and when were they murdered, but never like why or what happened to them or

anything like that. Especially yeah, and especially since it sounds like it's likely they were within two blocks of their home when they got abducted, Nobody ever talks about was it you know, by did they know them? Did they willingly go with this person? You would think so too. But I'm just gonna go ahead and like start off by saying that frustrates me more than anything on this case, that there's no nobody seems to care about that. They

just seemed to care about who did it. But we're gonna talking about the first theory, um, And I'm just gonna I'm just gonna toss it in here because you'll see it everywhere. Obviously it's a bad theory, but it was the prevailing theory until January, um, and that was that the girls had just run away. You remember there was that one sighting quote unquote sighting in Nashville in

the record store No Nashville. Uh yeah, So there was a very popular theory at the time that the girls had actually run away to just go either live with Elvis or like him or emulate his lifestyle. So they had reportedly run off to Tennessee to live like Elvis when he got bored with him and murdered him. Maybe, yeah, yeah, that's good theory, Joe. I like that theory. It's not out a good theory. Um. So I'm not really sure what the people thought the motive was but apparently that

was a big theory. It was such a big theory, in fact, that Graceland at the time released a statement on the nineteenth of January unfortunate timing that says, if you are good Presley fans, you'll go home and ease your mother's worries. I had heard even that, and of course this is again time goes by and things get twisted up. I heard Elvis himself one on the radio and actually pled with the girls to go home. I've not seen that. I suspect that's not true, but maybe. Yeah,

it's hard to say about that. I don't know. I like Joe's idea that the king did ye. Those girls did not look like small pills, so I don't know why he would have done that. Okay, so next theory is murder. Yeah, well maybe they ran away, but obviously something foiled their plans and murdered them instead. Yeah, something,

something or someone someone. We're going to go in my estimation least likely to most likely it is how I have arranged these Yeah, and again we don't know they were kidnapped to be raped, or just somebody just wanted to kill people. For Yeah, yeah, so we'll we'll address that a little bit as we go through this. My I think least likely, Yeah, Walter Krantz, you don't think

Elvis is at least likely? We just did him, didn't we. Ha. Krantz was a fifty three year old man who called the police on January fift to report that he had a dream that the bodies of the girls were in the Santa Fe Park, which was about a mile and a half from where they were actually found. And also they were discovered like a week later, so you know, he called them a week before and said the girls are here, and they found them a mile and a half away a week later. So the police thought, uh,

this is suspicious. But Krantz told the police that he should listen to them because psychic powers ran in his family. There you go. The police, apparently, like really seriously did interrogate him a number of times. Well, hell yeah, I was really psychic. He should have seen that. Should have seen it coming. I'm not psyching, and I would have seen it. Yeah, yeah, I was. Even if I had had that dream, I would have kept my mouth shut. Yeah,

I think, you know, he was just trying to be helpful. Maybe, but actually it's it's a it's a known fact though that actually killers do sometimes, actually quite often try to insert themselves in investigation. Yeah, it's almost like Joe is trying to insert himself in the narrative of killers inserting themselves into stories. Exactly. I'm always trying to just horn

in on your narrative here. I've actually seen him in the bookstore writing his name into the text on the stories, and sometimes I'm actually trying to assert my body right into the bookshelves. It does. Yeah, by the way, just so you don't get the wrong idea, we're talking like head first, so you know, the police interrogated him and will ultimately decide. But now he's just got he's just comes from a family of psychics. He just knew, so he just happened to guess location and call them and

he wasn't involved at all. So I agree with them, actually shut and actually he might have been right, and maybe the bodies were down there, and maybe the groundskeepers there didn't want to deal with it and they moved bodies. Yeah, I don't. Next is Silas Jane remember him, good old side, Remember Silent? I talked about silence New context of the Indiana dude. Yeah, disappearances literally three weeks ago. Yeah, talked about Silence Jane. He's not really good suspect, unfortunately for

this one. And I'm honestly not even really sure how he's connected to the case other than being kind of a hugely disgusting human pile of trash. It was very subtle, thank you, Yeah, um, sorry, Silence, if you're listening, I guess I don't know what you want for me, Steve.

It's usually it's kind of through this really tenuous connection with Kenneth Hansen, um who The connection to Silas Jane and Kenneth Hansen is not tenuous, but the connection with Hansen in this case is tenuous, and that Hanson isn't even named as a suspect. It's just Silas Jane. But Hanson was a pedophile and they were both connected to the Peterson slush shirt case. We went through this pronunciation conundrum before, and I don't think even Silence Jane actually

had much to do with those murders. Hands well know that the murders supposedly took place at his stable, but he wasn't there when that right, And I think that what people are saying is that it could be a similar situation because I remember something about you know, approaching the girls to see horses. Is what is how people equate this, except that typically for a guy like Hansen,

there's there's predilection towards young boys or young girls. So it's weird that he would be literally really playing both sides of the Yes, that's the weird part about him. I don't think it was him, although it's it's a funny story about it though. It's like, you know, somebody comes to here and says, hey, I'm murdered three young boys and you on your property, and silence Jane is says saying okay, and Rady a watch of the police. He just says, okay, get rid of the bodies. That

he burned his stable down. You have to cover any evidence. So yeah, there's there's a true friend. It doesn't rat you out. Yeah, well, I was gonna say silence. Jane had a lot to hide in his life, so this it wasn't, you know, burning down his stable was kind of like, oh great, I'll get rid of all the other evidence. Yeah, I guess some insurance money's no problem. Perfect. The other reason I don't like Kenneth Hanson as a suspect is his m O was to approach like usually

young men, young boys, not even men. And we're talking like and talking about like in the context, hey do you want to go see some beautiful thoroughbred racehorses? Or hey, would you like some employment? Whatever? Those are usually his his things. So approaching the girls at eleven o'clock on a winter night and say you want to job? I mean, what, what the hell? That's not the I agree it's it's not a good theory. So let's move on, um to

Benny Bedwell. Yes, it sounds familiar, right. We were talking about fightings. Yea. Yeah. He was the dishwasher that was reportedly seen with the girls a few days after their disappearance. You know when um, when Patricia was just so drunk she couldn't walk. Yeah. Yeah. Benny's real name was Edward Lee Bedwell. He was just called Benny Um and he was twenty one years old at the time of the disappearance.

He was reportedly illiterate or even maybe borderline mentally retarded, and he was a drifter from Tennessee who apparently slightly resembled Elvis. I don't see the resemblance. But I do see he was attractive. He was an attractive young man, but I don't think he looks like the King. He looked like the King in the way that like most dudes from that age look kind of like the King. Yeah, they all wore their hair and the clothes and kind of had the affected face, you know, and the and

they died, they all had black hair. You know. By the way, is it just me or does Elvis half the time looked like he had just had botox? You ever not said his face is always rather slack in the early years of home kind of kind of mobile. Yeah, a lot of botox. I was gonna say, it's almost like he did a lot of drugs or something that could. You know, I've seen that old Willie Nelson. He always looked like a robot to me. I saw him on TV show second and I thought, you know, you know,

he's not real. He's not put a mannequin. There as the only the only part of this that's moving at all. It's just his lips there are just like, well, there's the hand that's got the joint back and forth, and that is definitely not so Benny, Oh yeah, back to my sorry. The theory goes that the sisters were with Benny and another man on the seventh and then after January January, after seven days of drinking and feeding the

girl's hot dogs. That's a quote, a direct quote of what the police alleged, um Benny did, and then they quote beat the girls to death unquote after the girls refused further sexual advances, and then dumped their bodies on the seventh. They know, they were drinking and having a good time partying with the girls for seven days, and then after the girls were like, oh wait, we don't want to do this anymore, they got mad and beat them to death and then dumped their bodies. There are

a number of problems with this theory. First off, the police did manage to get as signed confession from Benny that said, yes, this is exactly what happened. I fed them hot dogs and everything, but he was, as previously mentioned, illiterate and claims he was coerced, which I think is highly likely. He was very stand at the time. Oh yeah, yeah. Second, there was like no evidence of the girls being beaten to death. Um They're autopsies provided no evidence that they'd

have hot dogs or even alcohol. And third, Benny had actually been clocked into work and like seen at work, Uh not dishwashing, but another job that he was working. Um when the girls were likely abducted. Gloss, You remember Harry Gloss. Yeah, well, he was in a medical examiner. He was an investigator for the medical examiner. He was

sure it was Benny. Um. And he insisted that there had been evidence of extreme sexual violence and abuse as well as intoxication or as well as intoxicins so drugs and alcohol, both in both Barbara and Patricia's systems, and that that that evidence was being withheld for their mother's well being or benefit or something like that could have been with hell, just because the police like to withhold certain bits of evidence to just Yeah, but I don't

think to the detriment of the narrative of you know, if they have if they have a suspect and custody and his story, his story matches, they're not going to say no, no, no, that didn't happen. We're not saying this because we're protecting the family's honor. Yeah, they're not going to do that. Yeah, it was actually um close. They said, Okay, you know you're lying to retract your story. You're dragging this innocent man's name through the mud, and Close said no, I'm not going to, and so they

fired him. Yeah, and I agree. I don't think Benny did it. I think he was an easy card scapegoat. Um. I think he was just a guy who happened to be the unfortunate landing block of some people. Well they, I'm sure police who cleaned up their act a lot

since those days, at least hopefully so. But that that kind of thing of like, you know, just badgering somebody until he finally breaks down and agrees to sign something, and they have sneaky ways of doing that, like and I've heard all kinds of stories about well, all right, so we're going to write out a statement of what you said here. This is not a confession. It's just

a statement, so you need to sign it. And the course of him being illiterate, like you say, well, and they could have literally they could have said, yeah, this is just um, this is just a receipt for your stuff. Yeah, yeah, you know. I mean like if he was so illiterate that he literally didn't you know, it was just like scribbles on a page. And I don't know how illiterate he was. You know, there's definitely a spectrum of illiteracy.

But literally he could have been looking at something. They could have told him it was different, and he just said, okay, I'll sign it. It's also a known thing that people will admit to things that they didn't do because they are sound like they're admitting too, because they've been inadvertently

given clues of what to say. You know, it's not a direct leading Okay, so now say you took her down the street, and then it's not that direct, but they you know, investigators, but accidentally, I mean, it happens accidentally. Well but even in this case, the story they were leading him to had no evidence to back it up. So like, what's going on. That's a hard thing. So I think, Benny, that's pretty well safe. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, well this is disappointing. Okay, next, next suspect theory theory

suspect suspect exactly, That's what I would call. It is Max Fleeg, which is German for volume, is it? So I don't speak Germany. Max was seventeen years old at the time of the disappearance. I've heard about Max. One of the things I've never heard about him. Is how exactly he came to be a suspect to begin with? What he did? What else got him in trouble, I think is what is what's got him. Yeah, as a suspect, I would agree with that, although he failed a polygraph

test then reportedly admitted to kidnapping and murdering the girls. Um, so I'm not sure how he grabbed the interest of the police initially. I think he may have just been a local deviant, especially given what happened later in his life, just one of the usual suspects. Yeah, but I mean the police had to have known this, so I don't know why they did it. But it was at the time illegal to give a polygraph test to a miner.

But he was a miner, So I don't know why they did that, but they did, and so they had to let him go and you know, get rid of all of the quote unquote evidence that they had collected during that time. Well they had no evidence. Yeah, there's literally no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to link Max to this case. Max might have done it, He might have.

He was later convicted and imprisoned for the murder of a fourteen year old girl who rebuffed his advances and he just tossed her body into a suff Hello, Yeah, no he didn't. He's not the one who suffocated someone with a pillow. He choked her. There's a there's a bunch of similar things, but there was a bunch of really skeezing air who else this particular area of Chicago at the times? Yeah, I get them a little mixed up. Yeah, it's easy to do. I think of this suspects so far,

Max is the strongest. Well that's good because we're going down the list of least likely to most likely. So it's good that you think that he's more likely than the others. But I think I might have a couple that maybe even more likely real. Next, he's a guy named Charles Melquist. He looks a bit like Elvis too, or like this character from LazyTown that I don't really want to talk about. How I know what a character from LazyTown looks like? What LazyTown is just I don't

want to talk about it. It's not a video game, but I don't want to talk about it. Googling LazyTown right now. A year after the Grime sisters were found, a fifteen year old girl named Bonnie Lee Scott was found naked tossed on the side of the road a few miles from where the Grimes sisters had been found, and on November six, nineteen, Loretta Grimes got a second call from a man she identified as the same caller who knew that Barbara had the cross toes, and the

caller told Loretta, I committed another perfect crime. This is another one those cops won't solve, and they're not going to hook it on Bedwell or Barry Cook. We'll talk more about that. We have Benny Bedwell, Barry Cook we haven't heard about yet. Most people link this call to mal Quist because he admitted to murdering Um Scott, and the murders are pretty similar. Um. I'm not clear on the timing of this because it's possible that milk Wist

wasn't custody when the second call was placed. The stories of the murder charge and the second call to Lauretta are side by side on the November nine issue of The Chicago Trip. This is why I don't entirely trust the story. I would agree with that Malquist suffocated Scott with a pillow in his car, when she rebuked his sexual advances and then stripped her body naked and dumped her on the side of the road, just you know, like I said, a couple of miles away from the

where the Grimes were dumped. Some investors say it's possible, as Joe was mentioning that the Grime sisters were suffocated and that's how they died, either by pillow or by hand and then dumped so or frozen and dumped. I mean, I guess it would make sense if maybe, you know, we're talking as sexual deviant, we're saying like maybe Patricia, wait, which one was the one that had had sex Barbara? Maybe Barbara was like you know what, Okay, fine, yes

we'll have sex. It's you know, not rape, or she I don't know she was dating him, or like I don't know something. And then he was like, all right, Patricia, it's your turn, and she was like no, and then he just you know, flew into a rage and killed them both. I don't know. The problem I really have with this is that mal Quest actually wanted to be given the electric chair for murdering Scott. He he seemed really remorseful, and if he really did like want to

be given the death penalty. Why would you not just say, oh, also I killed two other girls to really just cement your sentence. The problem with mil Quist is that he yes, he did smother Scott, but he also he smothered her, he dumped her body. He then came back later on and cut her head off. Did he clearly mutilated the body two or three times the same? Yeah, which is weird.

And yet for the crime sisters there, other than what the local animal population did to their bodies, we don't really I mean, cutting the head off is pretty severe. It is, and I'm sure that the idea was cut the head off and we'll take it, we'll hide it, and I'll never be able to figure out who it was.

Stupid thought process of a nut job. But I mean, if he was going to do that once you think again, you would think that he would have said, oh, I'd better take their heads, so I better go back for their Well, there's some escalation there, right, and especially if, especially if you've done it before and left their heads on, or maybe you did it before and you thought the local rodents, would you know, rightly kind of mess them up and it didn't happen enough so the next time

you think, I know, I'll take the head. But if we're going to say escalation, then it seems like going for two right out of the gate, going from two to one. You know too, taking on two girls is even if they're teenage girls, so much bigger task than taking on one teenage girl. You guys remember three weeks ago when we were talking about, like how maybe a serial killer killed the three women in the Indiana Dunes, And I was like, why would you do three as

your first try? And your guys were like, because why not? Because there are three of them, they're just right there. But I mean, I think there's that same idea. You know, it could just be that, well, they were two girls together or and maybe the problem is that we know too much of the quote unquote standard pattern that we're falling prey to that. But it just seems weird that he would pick up these two girls and go for it and then and then suddenly, you know, months later,

just go after one and severely mutilate the body. It just seems very different to me. Well, I think crime of an opportunity. There are times, yeah, there's that, I mean, like that, like the look Indiana dudes thing, It's like, this is a beautiful opportunity. Even if there are three of them. Was so what they're at my mercy because I got him on a boat down the lake. There's no witnesses. It's a little different than trying to, you know,

abduct somebody off the streets, you know, into your car. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know, it's it's hard to tell. I think Scott was dating milk West at the time when he murdered her, So that wasn't an abduction. Do you remember how old was he was, like twenty three or twenty five. It was a completely different world. I forget that there's you know, a fifteen year old girl dating twenty year old guys, totally normal. Well, I don't know if it was normal, It just wasn't, you know,

it wasn't as frowned upon it still happens today. I mean, it's not as I still think it's weird. Yeah, I agree, but but you know, so who's to say that, you know, maybe Barbara was seeing him, or maybe you know, maybe one of them knew him, And yeah, it's not it's not insane to think. And also, if are walking home in the middle of winter and it's cold and it's late, and somebody they know drives up and says, do you

guys want to ride? And they say, sure, it's just a couple of blocks, we'll take a ride from that cute, hunky college boy. And then oops, it turns out he's a psychopath and murders them. Happens. I mean, you know, it's not exactly an abduction. I mean, it is an abduction, but it's not like this huge Yeah. Well, and that brings me to something that we talked about before. When

you were talking about the timeline. There was a sighting of the girls having gotten off of the bus early, and what you were just saying of like getting getting a picking up, thumbing a ride in some way or shape or form. I had been wondering why would they get off of the bus, except that you said, I think the timing was about twenty minutes before they should have arrived at home, if I remember that correctly, A ballpark girty to forty minut Okay, so I don't know

how much time. I think you guys have spent a fair amount of time on buses in public transportation. And what made me think about why would they get off of the bus. Is if they had to go to the bathroom. You know what I've done that, I've I've gotten on the bus, and fifteen minutes later, I'm like, I have half an hour till I have to get there. I'm getting off of this next stop. I will find someplace that's open, I will use their restroom, and I

will get back on the next bus that comes by. Well, well, you know, if it's far enough that it's a half hour ride, I'm willing to wait to the twenty minutes to have relieved my bladder, so that that's That was one of the things I thought when we were talking about or there or there was somebody creepy, or maybe they were riding the bus with somebody they knew, maybe there was some place along the way to stop and get ice cream or god knows what ye or maybe

the bus just rereaked of yearn and or maybe they didn't have to be home. I remember, you know, being a teenager and knowing like, Okay, this is when I have to be home, and I'm enjoying myself not being home around the four or five other kids and my single mom. You know who I'm sure is lovely and giving, but also like your teenager, so like, well, you know, maybe it was as simple as it's a nice night out. You know, it's kind of snow, it's kind of fun.

We don't need to be home for another half hour. Let's just get off and walk absolutely all right, Um, last suspect, final suspectin suspect final answer, final answer, M Barry Cook. Yeah, Berry, I don't know some you know that's that's a different barrier. That's very white. Okay, okay, never mind, does it look anything like very good? He doesn't. Yeah.

Marry Cook actually served time in prison, not for the grimes murders Dy, not for the Silas Jane connected murder of three boys Peterson Swissler murder, nor the murder of Margaret Gallagher, nor the murder of Judith May Anderson, though he is likely connected to all of those things. He spent nine years in the Joliet jail, and he was released on September twenty in eighteen sixty seven. He has since married and has kids, so you will see a

lot of blogs and articles online who refused to name him. Currently. Yeah, they think that like the kids should be spared. Fifty years later, it is. That's true. Cook was actually never ever convicted of any crimes. But trial, how did he how did he wind up in prison if he was not convicted of it? He was, he was sentenced. He pled guilty to this. He wasn't ever convicted of any of the murders. He wasn't you know, anything like that.

He pled guilty to rape and assault to rape. Um. And he was sentenced to one to fourteen years in Statesville prison. Um. And he was released early for good behavior. Statesville doesn't sound like a real place. Statesville sounds like the Sims or something. Yeah. Yeah, it's like cookie Ville, minimum minimum security, orphanage. Yeah. Um. But apparently Barry Cook passed a lie detector test for the Grimes murders and the Peterson Schlussler murders, so the police decided he was

not guilty of the CRIMEA So there you go. Yeah, that's um. Well, I think wait, wait, wait you you just like dropped him and walked away like he was a bad microphone, Like wait, why why is he the last on your least to most likely suspect list? Well, because he was awful. I mean he I think he definitely was involved in all of those murders. In some way, I think he was a serial killer and he just

managed to not get caught. He got caught for like rape charges, but he was a violent sexual deviant who has a long history of being very closely connected to a number of cases that are all very similar to each other. They all, most of them except for the one with the silas Jane one. You know, they're all young women, like thirteen to fifteen years old. They were all suffcated and dumped naked on the side of the road. Somehow he managed to go straight and or either that

he was just really good. He got back out of prison, has had a family to continue to kill. Yes, I don't know. I have no idea they see. That's that's why that's why I'm asking, Because I don't know the fact that this guy is I'm going to use your term, linked to all of these other murders but never caught, and yet he was investigated. It smacks a little strange

as if he is the usual suspect. It's almost like gloss is that it's almost as if somebody similar to him and said, you know that Barry Cook, he he's a bad apple. We got to get that guy. We've got to get him for something. And hey, we've got a dead girl. Bring Barry Cook in. Yeah, you know, we're gonna put him in the line. Enough, she didn't pick him out. Oh another dead girl. Bring Barry Cook in. You know, he's the most wanted of the local places.

The trick is that with all of these murder I mean, you know, the Grimes sisters, there's no evidence. There was no evidence on their bodies, right, There's nothing to link anybody, which is why you can't really say Berry Cook was not actually seriously linked too much of anything, because there wasn't any evidence in any of them, which almost, you know, in my mind, almost speaks more than if there was evidence. I mean, obviously, if there was evidence, that speaks a lot.

But I also think it's equally suspicious that there happened to be no evidence on any of these bodies. But I do agree that it is. It does seem odd that he managed to spend some time in jail, like nine years in jail, and then you know, get out and get married and have kids and lead an otherwise normal life. Yeah, as far as we know, well as far as not well, yeah, I mean, but if he was out still hunting around and and you know, slumming a little bit, going out bucks. It's I've had a

couple of drinks, let's go kill a girl. There should have been more bodies dropping. Well, this is not something you should say, but maybe he picked up some good tips in his stay at Juliet good point. Yeah, I don't know. I've never understood what it was that he did to initially become a suspect in this. I totally agree to then, because it's never listed. Yeah, you know, it's never it's never said. It's just again because people are trying to protect him and his family. I will know.

What I mean is that I've never seen which case he first showed up in to then be able to try and link him backwards in time, in other words, to build the timeline of, oh, he was hauled in for stealing the governor's car or something like that, and and that's when they said, you're on the bad track, boy, you gotta clean up like I did. I want to. I want to build the timeline of him out. And

I've never tried a little bit. It's a tricky thing because you know, if you're gonna like do a crime, like this, which can be opportunity or can be something you know, very planned or whatever. No matter what, there are a lot of them are going to look about the same. You're gonna abduct a girl, maybe rape or maybe not, but in the in the in the interim, wind up strangling or dumping or by the side of the road somewhere. So that's the same. M Oh, they

look a lot alike. And you could say, wow, these must have been committed by the same guy. Well not necessarily at all, different people, very similar to acts that can appear. But I will also say that we are talking about Chicago and it doesn't have like no crime, so it wouldn't. I mean, you know, just because heard

of them doesn't mean yeah. But we can also say it at that time in Chicago there were a lot of people moving through that area who could have been almost like, who is the truck driver that was leaving prostitutes across the interstate system of this country and the happy happy face killer. No, not that one. No, this was like fifteen or twenty years ago, and I can't remember who it is. It doesn't matter something. It was actually a truck driver who killed people all around the

interstate Highway system. There was a happy face killer. Well no, I'm thinking you're just thinking of the smiley face. Yeah, there's also a happy face killer. But but my point is is that there were people flowing through Chicago. Ever, no pun intended, so not the major shipping have of course. Yeah, totally yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'll just finished by saying it definitely wasn't dr Hodel. No, I don't think it was dr Hodel either. I do suspect it was probably

somebody in you mm hmm. I suspect that. Other than that, I don't a clue. Yeah, so many good suspects. But I also I think they probably did die in the NY timeline of you know, twenty four hours after disappearance, and then they were held you know somewhere captain captain an ice box somewhere. Yeah that well yeah, that's uh well, guys, hang on, listen, we think who can we hang this on? Okay, forget it. I don't have nothing. You want to wind it up? I do? Okay, ready, sure, okay, you can

find some links to our research. We'll probably throw at least one old timey news article in there. Um, there's a lot of me the YEP that will be found on our website. The website is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can listen to us there. You can also listen to us on iTunes or you can stream us or whatever. If you can subscribe if you haven't already, and if you can on Rate and Review always best. Yeah. You can find us on social media if you want to

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you know, mugs, stuff like that. Um sure, Thinking Sideways Murder Kit that's perfect, and Thinking Sideways Serial Killers Manual. Huh. That show has been working on for the last thirty years of it's written in very tight handwritten scripts, so it's a little hard read. A lot of stuff, a lot of stuff those five pages. Yeah, that's true, all of that, all of that having been said, um, I think we're going to get out of here alright, well

until next week our REVOI. So we have got to work on that guardrail for the state that you can't pitch a body over. I don't think it's gonna really need to happen that. I don't think it's going to happen. They'll just go to us. They'll just go to a road that doesn't have guardrails. Bye, guys,