Thinking Sideways: The Death of Kurt Cobain

as always by Joe and Steve Um. We're gonna not even close to solve a mry We're just gonna talk about a mystery tonight. It's probably right. No, we're not going to solve it. We're going to talk about it. The topic tonight is the death of Kurt Cobain. I'm not gonna go any further than the before. I stop and say, if you suggested this as a listener, you're not going to hear your name red because there are

too dang many of you. Yeah, this one's a pretty popular request, like a lot of people all the time, Like literally since we started the podcast. Actually, we've been getting suggestions for this, so finally we decided to tackle it. And actually it was because I recently took a trip to Seattle. We went to the Experienced Music Project Museum, which is up in Seattle. What is that again. It's

a museum that's dedicated to music and pop culture. I hadn't heard of it before, so that's why it's freaking awesome. We used to go there when I was a kid, and like you can like play on instruments and all that stuff, and um, along with the Hello Kitty exhibit that I tweeted some pictures while we were there, Um

yeah there was one. Yeah, um there was also I didn't know that, but there was also an exhibit not exhibition, exhibit um about Nirvana and they had all of the hit a bunch of Cobain's clothes and some memorabilia and like letters that he wrote and polaroids and all that stuff. Replica, no wax rep clause. No, it was very tastely done. Um. And I guess I just started to think about that whole You know, you don't think about people as people a lot, right, Celebrities You don't really think about that

so much. But I started thinking about it, and then I started to think about his death, and then I just decided we should do an episode on it. So that's a long preamble. You know. One thing that when in doing a little research on this is I'm amazed at how long it's been since he died. It doesn't seem Yeah, it seems like a long time because I remember it. Yeah, I remember it too, but it just didn't seem like it was that long ago. Yeah, because

it wasn't. I mean, I mean, I don't remember it because I was too young to remember it, but I was alive at least. So there's that. Um. And then, as an additional preamble to this, this is a huge, huge case, like huge, lots of research has been done on it. And that's not to say that the rest of the cases we do are not huge, but this one is extra huge. And I just want to remind anybody or let people know if they don't know. UM. Our podcast is intended as a primary course or an

overview of cases. So there are going to be things that we're gonna gloss over or we're gonna omit, or that we won't include in the episode. And that's just how it is. I'm sorry. Look at the important stuff we I mean, I think we do usually get the important stuff, but if your only point of context for this is like the Soaked in Bleach documentary on Netflix, or it's only Curtain Courtney also on Netflix, or it's

only or you've never heard of it. I encourage you to do more research because this is not This isn't everything. It's the ton out there and it's it's a celebrity. So therefore the sory is on the scale of reflective of the scale of that celebrity, and so that's that's why there's so much out there. So I just wanted to remind people before we get into it there we're gonna miss things. Sorry, but we're going to miss things. I don't think we must do any important things. I

don't think so either, but I'm sure that. I mean, you know, everybody has their favorite detail, so we might miss it, and I'm sorry if we do, but we probably know that we did. Okay, okay, cool labored that point long enough. We did, all right. So first off, like we did with Bob Marley, I'd like to assume that everybody knows who Kurt Cobaine is, but I guess I probably can't. Do you get you guys remember the nineties. I remember some of the nineties and there was especially

especially in the Pacific Northwest. The nineties grunge era was taking effect, and a large part of that was in thanks to a band called Nirvana. You are I'm impressed. I'm not actually impressed. You plaid frequently, but thanks. Yeah. Uh. But you guys know Nirvana. You know Vana. You just do if you if you think you don't know who Nirvana is, just pause this episode and go look up Nirvana and like, just listen to any song that comes up, and you will recognize Nirvana. I was really surprised when

I was doing the research. I didn't realize they only put out three albums as big as they were. For some reason in my mind it was I figured it was a half dozen. Well that's the interesting part, right. They became so ubiquitous so fast. It was just really it was insane. I mean, as soon as the radio picked up smells like teen Spirit that they just became And almost every song off of their albums were hits. You know. It wasn't like one of those albums you

pick up now where you recognize one song. It was just all of them are popular songs. So Kurt Cobain was the frontman for Nirvana, and there's a ton of history in the band, and I won't go into it, but you should probably get up because bands and music are interesting and awesome. Cobain was I'm not making this up. This is an actual quote. Um. He was called, quote, the spokesman of a generation, next generation. Thank you. Yeah.

He and Nirvana rose quickly in popularity as we were mentioning, and Nirvana to this day is regarded as one of the most influential and important rock bands of the modern era. That's I mean, I know that sounds like a bold statement, but it's true. Yeah, it's possible. You also know of Dave Grohl or very least the Food Fighters again, yeah you do, go look it up. Um Groll was the drummer for Nirvana. I totally had spaced that out when I was doing the reading. Why is his name all

over the stuff? Oh yeah yeah yeah, so yeah, Cobain huge influence on music, pretty much everything that is modern rock. I said it, deal with it. We're gonna get a lot of emails. Yeah, yeah, we're getting regardless regardless. Yeah, and actually I guess so before we go too far into the mystery. The mystery is that Kurt Cobain committed suicide on April, the age of arguably at the height of his career. I mean, you know he could have yeah, he could have putting him into club. Yeah he was

part of the Seven Club um. But a lot of people think that, uh he was not. Actually he was actually murdered. He was didn't actually kill himself. So that's our mystery. Did Kurt Cobain commits suicide or not? And if I really have to say it, it's a suicide story. So if that's the thing that bothers you, stop now. Yeah, Okay, suicide bothers me. So I'm gonna go. Okay, bye, Steve. You ready? Yeah? Great, Let's go back to important characters.

Let's start with that right In Um January of nineteen ninety, Kurt met Portland local and frontwoman for the band that I think it's safe to say most people haven't actually heard of, called Whole Um and her name was Courtney Love. The Whole really form in ninety I thought they formed later. No, No, no, whole was I'm sorry, I'm just saying whole like that's where you would know Courtney Love. Okay, not that the

band formed in ninety I think they were. I think you know, they I think it was later on that they were starting to get bigger, had been around Okay, yeah, maybe even earlier than that. Also, it's unfair to say that nobody's heard of Whole. You've probably heard Whole songs. You just don't know it. It was a joke. I'm sorry. I'm Also it's also not a percent sure that that's where they met, but it doesn't really matter. They probably met in Portland. I know he played a lot of

gigs in Portland. Yeah, well they were from Seattle. Yeah. Courtney Love is probably, uh like, one of the most ridiculed celebrities of all times. Ever, I would say she has habitually abused drugs and alcohol. She has had lots of legal trouble as well. A few months after Cobain's death, Love actually punched someone at Lollapalooza, which started a string of arrests, um and she was banned from a lot of places, including Virgin Airlines. Like the entire airline, she

was no longer allowed to fly with them. She assaulted a stewardess. Typical. Yeah. Yeah, I will say this that despite her substance abuse problems prior to Cobain's death. It seems that her problems were her legal problems at least, were really spurred by his death. She didn't really have many legal problems before he died. Yeat, and you know, she wasn't arrested or anything like that. They seemed like a pretty normal couple, you know, as normal as you

can be in the famous nineties grunge era. They got married in February of ninety two. Love wore a lace and satin wedding dress and Cobain wore green pajamas. Yeah, and um, Love was pregnant at the time when they were married, and she gave birth to their only child, whose name is Frances Bean in August. Did he of you guys look at pictures of Frances. I think she's beautiful. She I was really surprised at how much she looks

like her mom. Yeah, for some reason, this is dumb, but I expected her to look more like her father, and it was shocking to see a sober version or clean version. Of course she has. She has Kurt's eyes, I would say, really really piercing blue eyes. Frances up to these days anyway, she's an artist. She's getting a divorce she's getting divorced. Tom Grant is another important player and this whole thing most of the time you'll here Grant referred to as an exemplary man, at least definitely

in his own documentaries. Uh, he was a detective in l A. And then he retired and became a private detective. Definitely been the loudest proponent of the Cobain murder theory. He was hired by Love on April th after Cobaine escaped from a rehab facility in l A. On marcht one. And we're going to talk about the whole series of events in a minute. So this is really just pretty much, yeah, the important people, so that when we're going through I

don't have to pause to say all that stuff. Grant almost immediately started recording almost literally every conversation and event that happened around this case. He's I mean, he's thousands of hours of recordings. And while many of the conversations that he taped were with a woman by the name of Rosemary Carroll, who is slash was the entertainment lawyer

for Courtney and Kurt both. The interesting thing about Rosemary Carroll is that in recordings she very clearly agrees with Grant about most of his theories, but refuses to go on the record of any kind to say those things. In fact, in one of the recordings, you can hear her agreeing with Grant and then uh, she goes, wait are you recording? And he says, I record everything, and she goes, you can't do that. Stop and he stops the recording. She says a couple other words that I

that we don't say on our podcast. Oh. When she discovers it's she does say a few things. Yeah. Um, this might confuse people her refusal to go on the record, but it doesn't really confuse me that much. Courtney Love is still her client. She's a lawyer. She's a lawyer, and her firm represents people like Jay Z for instance. It's a big firm of big talent, and you you can't go around accusing your clients of murder in the public if you want to retain any of your clients. Yeah,

so it makes sense to me. Who knows, maybe you can even be disbarred for saying stuff like that. Seems like you probably could. I don't really know anyway. So you'll hear that tossed around a lot, but I just want to go on the record of saying it doesn't really bother me that much that she won't go on the record. Okay, those are the big ones, big three with a couple. Yeah, talk about those when we get there. Timeline.

Let's talk about timeline. Alright. We're just gonna do a series of events here, and we're actually going to start a little earlier than April. We're gonna start in early March in Germany. Um, sorry, Nirvana was on tour in Europe, I should say, and in Germany, Cobain was diagnosed with bronchitis and severe laryngitis. It does. Yeah, so when you know, sometimes his singing was more screaming. But it's still tough to do still, like you just can't do it. I mean,

you have to be able to produce noise. Yes, that doesn't really work if you've got laryngitis or bronchitis. Where on thing it does. I don't think it's really Nirvana style, but maybe yeah, that it was more the guitars smashing than anything. Yeah, as you can imagine. Um, Kurt decided to get treatment for the said bronchitis and laryngitis, so he flew to Rome for treatment, because why not if you have a lot of money, may as we'll go to Rome for treatment instead of staying in Germany. I

don't know. Probably, well it actually it turns out that Courtney Love. I'm gonna try to refer to people by the last names, but I might forget. But Love really really likes Roman history, So I suspect there might have been something there that he thought, oh, well, maybe she'll come with me if I go hang out in Rome or something like that. You know what I heard about that heard that about her, that that's that's kind of surprised me. It really surprising. I did not imagine that

there Courtney Love that we didn't know about. Well, um, Courtney Love did join him in Rome, in fact, and on March three, Cobain had, according to Love, gone all out. He'd gotten her flowers, he had Champagne ready. He was basically like super cute, excited and romantic. He even apparently got her a piece of the Colosseum because apparently, you know, she loves Roman history, so she went down to the Colisseum with his hammer. Yeah, and it probably isn't actually

from the Colosseum. Okay, when she arrived, Love says, they opened the champagne and she popped a valium because stress, I guess, and they made out a little bit and then she fell asleep. Yeah, and I think you know that that would upset me. Well, it would. But didn't she fly in from the States? Yeah, wouldn't she have like horrible jet leg And in addition to it depends on when she Oh you mean that, So she would have fallen asleep anyway because she would have been really,

really tired. Yeah, it depends on when she flew. But yeah, I mean, valium will knock you out. And so I don't know what why she did that. I would be annoyed if my wife husband showed up in Rome and I hadn't seen him for a long time and you know, was being really romantic and then he was just like okay, but sleep. Yeah I didn't know. I can see that. Yeah. So around four am, she woke up from her value and induced coma apparently to find Cobaine passed out on

the floor and he was rushed to the hospital. He had apparently overdosed on real hypnol, which you probably know as Rufie's, which there aren't actually intended for like date rape stuff. They're actually just sleep aids um and it was it was Love's prescription that he had. He had taken some of her pills, and she very famously says that there were like fifth that he had taken, like fifty pills. I want to know why the heck she had fifty of them, Honor Well, I mean why not?

I mean, what what do you usually get as a prescription of something? Yeah, I think that is an excessive number. Also, she was drug addict. She did have every Yeah, but the overdose was so bad that Cobain was actually in a coma. And I can't tell from the reporting on this if he was in a coma for five days or he was just actually in the hospital for five days. I also can't tell if he was actually in a coma or he was just unconscious. But that's he was

definitely in the hospital for five days. No matter what was happening in the hospital, he was there. You'll hear this referred to as Cobain's first suicide attempt. But it's really important to delineate here that no one at the time, doctors included, thought that it was a suicide attempt. Everybody classified it as a totally accidental overdose, and nobody thought it was a suicide attempt. That wasn't until it wasn't until Cobain died that it started being referred to as

a suicide attempt. That's important. Yeah. There's also some speculation that the reason that Cobain had so many Rufe's in a system is that Love put a bunch of pills in his champagne and so he was unknowingly drinking Rufe's as well as taking Rufie's. I don't know if I believe that or not, especially since I don't know how much he had in his body. I was going to say she wanted to kill him, then why would she

Why would she rush him to the hospital? Exactly? Exactly. Yeah, that's my big my other big thing with saying, oh, she was trying to kill him, that was her first try. It was like no, because she would not have called an ambulance. She would have to she would have waited, Yeah, and then she could have come to and been like, oh my god, I woke up at nine o'clock this morning and he was dead. Exactly. Anyway, I don't believe

that this was a murder or suicide attempt. I believe it was totally just an accidental overs but um, that's just my opinion. Man. Comain and Love returned to Seattle after he spent five days in the hospital in Rome, which I'm just now realizing I never said, is where they lived. They lived in Seattle, Washington. It was a

nice little house. Yeah, it wasn't little, No, I'm sorry, you know, I mean actually little that was actually for as wealthy as it were, though, you know, it was actually more modest than a lot of rock stars would live in, and you know, but still a pretty big house. Seattle is not known for, unlike places like l A, for having that many huge, lavish homes at that time. Now that's stuff, says case now. But at that time they weren't as many giants sprawling gold encrusted homes. Yeah.

On March eighth, Love called the police, claiming that Cobain was suicidal and had locked himself in a room with a gun. The police came, They confiscated the guns and some pills um. But when they asked Cobain why he was behaving that way, he said he wasn't suicidal at all, but he was hiding from um Courtney. I guess it's

actually in the literal police report. I don't know if you guys saw that posted, but it literally says that in the police report that he was scared of Courtney and he was hiding from her with a gun in the room. I have heard the stuff that has come out of that woman's mouth before, and I would have hid in the bathroom too, because she's a little cuckoo for cocoa puffs. At time, it was a little cuckoo

for cocoa puffs two. And sometimes there are some recordings of him threatening Oh yeah, no, no, no, I'm not saying that he was stable. Yeah, I'm saying she is definitely unindely unstable. Yeah. So again you'll hear that also referred to as a suicide attempt. Obviously it was not given that the police report proves that it was not, or I mean, at the very least that he was aware enough to say, no, it's not. I don't really know. Again, I don't think he was trying to kill himself at

that moment either. But there you go on March Love stage and intervention with ten of Cobain's friends and some record executives, which I think is pretty funny. We did and mentioned that he was a heroin addict, right, Probably not, I haven't actually mentioned right. Thank you for pointing that out. This is one of those instances where you get so caught up in the case you forget to say things

that seem really obvious to you, totally important. Both Courtney and Kurt were really really heavy heroin users throughout the entire duration of their relationship and prior to I think it was Courtney said it was drugs that brought them together. I think major shared in. Yeah. So yeah, he was a heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy heroin users. So was she. They both used a lot of drives. They and in fact, there's a lot of stuff out there talking about how

Cobain embraced his identity as a drug addict. That was attractive to him that he was doing drugs, So take that as you will. For those of you familiar with the case, Dylan Carlson was at the intervention. I am consciously omitting a lot of stuff that you will see about Dylan around on the internet about this case because I just think that they're not even a little suspicious the way he was acting and I think that it adds a lot of fluff to the case to discuss

Dylan as some nefarious character. I don't think that nefarious. And by the way, just for those of you who aren't aware of the case, Dylan Carlson was a childhood friend of Kurt Cobain's. They were they were best friends,

and also they did drudge together. I and I was going to say that's that is the only reason I'm not opposed to not bringing him up every ten seconds like some of the places that you'll read about this story does, is because he was also a junkie and his behavior is very very um typical, the things that he says in the way that he acts. So it's there's I can't see putting a lot of faith into

the guy. Yeah, I don't think it's suspicious. If you want to know what we're kind of talking about again, we're kind of talking about Soaked in Bleach and the way that they portray Dylan Carlson as well as Tom grant Um, the way he portrays Dylan as kind of a seat nefarious guy in this whole thing. So I'm not going to bring him up every ten seconds like a lot of people do when they talk about this case,

and I just wanted to bring that up. Now. I'll bring him up when it's important, like again in a couple of minutes, but it's not important. Okay. So after a rough start, likely Cobain laughing in Courtney's face, right, because I can't imagine that she was sober during this whole thing, saying you need to go to rehab, and I'm going to go with you, but I'm not going to do the impatient thing. I'm going to stay in

a hotel and you go being that other Obviously she wasn't. Yeah, yeah, that it was her idea, right, it was her idea for the intervention. Um And after a rough start, as I said, they eventually did convince Cobain that he should go to rehab. Yeah, and you know responsibilities, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But what I want to know is why did they have to go all the way to l A for rehab. I think it's probably one of the best. It's probably

also caters to celebrities. I was gonna say, it's their status. Is most likely you don't go to the methodone clinic down the street, yeah, or Method one as the case maybe, Uh sorry, joking. Okay, So Love and Cobain agreed to go to this one in l A right, And as I vaguely mentioned, Cobain was going to stay. It was a facility you were supposed to stay in. It was supposed to be an impatient detox, which makes sense for

heavy drug users, you would want to monitor literally everything. Yeah, but apparently um Courtney was staying in a hotel, maybe even with her drug dealer at the for her treat quote unquote treatment any she never seemed to take She didn't seem cleaning seriously. I mean, she did eventually clean up, and she's fallen off the wagon quite a few times, some of them very famously, But this is one of those times where I don't think she was taking it seriously.

I would agree with that these days that you know, you guys are probably noticed that she's really trying to clean up her image. Also, her whole style is she's trying very hard. Yeah, but unfortunately she's not always gone about it so well. Did you see that roast she was on a couple of years ago. Oh, she was on some celebrity roast and she's like, I am so clean and I haven't done anything it's so look and

it is so obvious that she is blasted. And like a week and a half later she went into another program because the entire internet was like, you're yeah, yeah, So, I mean she's trying, she's not always succeeding well. And here's what I'll say. When I was doing research from this, and we'll talk about some of the experts or people I talked to um when we start talking about theories.

But I did talk to some people who are ex addicts who are listeners of our show, and they said, you know, by and large, opiate addiction, heroin addiction is the hardest thing to kick. It's the thing you missed the most. That high is just like it's almost impossible to kick for your entire life. And if you're around people who are doing it, you're probably going to start doing anything. I said, She's surrounded by the wrong people, right, Yeah,

whether that's intentional or not. Yeah, So she didn't really take this whole detox thing seriously. It sounds like us neither did Kurt Yeah. Uh. And reports say that the facility in l A had quote no knowledge of his history of depression or previous suicide attempts. Unquote, which is money again because as far as I can tell, uh, he didn't have any suicide attempts um, but maybe he did.

I don't know. You did have some history of depression, yeah, but I mean we had some medical is that that kind of drug him down and gave me an excuse for a lot of things. Yeah, although there's some some discussion, Yeah, there's some speculation there, but I mean, like, really, who doesn't have us history of depression? You know, who doesn't have who doesn't feel depressed when they're a teenager? You know? And it's not as though Kurt was that much. I mean,

he was twenty seven. But if you're living in a world where you're making music about feeling angry and mad and sad and doing a lot of drugs, that's probably just going to continue. On March this is five days after the intervention. Yes, Cobain goes with Dylan Carlson to buy a shotgun before leaving for rehab. You'll remember that the police confiscated all of his guns, all Cobain's guns.

There's some sort of restraining order because I get the impression that dyl and Carlson bought the gun for him. He did he wasn't under a straining order. He told Dylan that he didn't want to buy a gun because he thought the police would find out and confiscate that one too, given that it was registered under his name, after they just seized all of his weapons. Yeah, so he asked Dylan to buy it for him because he

actually he thought that's It's unclear. Reports are either that he thought somebody was like breaking into his house or that um a decision that he was about to make, which I'll tell you about a second. He thought that people would be really angry and come attack him because he was going to cost people a lot of money retaliation, retaliation. And I understand this is a twenty gage shotgun. Twenty gets shotgun with a barrel break at the end, semato,

but semiauto is important. That was a funny thing too, he apparently I heard it. He said that he bought a twenty gauge because he thought he could shoot somebody with a twenty gage that wouldn't kill them, you know, as opposed to a twelve games. Well, and that's dude, but isn't I thought I read somewhere that and you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I maybe that twenty gauges are popular for home protection because they won't

go through a wall. Well, you can shoot somebody and it won't go through a wall and hit somebody through a wall. Well, it depends on what kind of load you got, anything slug in and it might punch its way through a wall. Chat Now, yeah, that's why people, you know, for home defense use smaller pellets that won't go to a wall. Right, So that was my understanding was that it was optimal. You know, likely they went into the gun store and they said, what are you

looking for? He said, well, I'm looking to defend my home, and they said, oh, this is an excellent option for that. Definitely, you know, it's even better than than bird pellet. Just use rock salt that doesn't kill anybody and it's hurts like hell. Yeah, that's but they don't. You got to make your own. Yeah, that's the one problem with it. Yeah. I wonder it would be like to be shot with. I don't want to know. I have I have been told that it is extremely painful. I don't want to

ever find out. So Dylan bought him, bought Cobain this gun. I mentioned briefly that he thought maybe there would be some retaliation. It's because apparently Cobain had decided that Nirvana was not going to play Lollapaluza. Lollapaluza, which we'll talk

about in a little bit. Lollapaluza is a huge music, yeah, and it was happening in Washington that year, and they were going to make nine point two million dollars four that it sounds like he not only didn't want to play Lollapaluza, but in fact wanted to disband Nirvana and quit the music business entirely. So he seemed to be a bit nervous about that. He was scared of retaliation. And so those are the two reasons that are given as to why he felt like he needed a gun.

But either way, he took the gun back to his house in Seattle. He left it there, and then he got on a plane to l A and checked into the Detox facility down in l A. Exodus, Yeah, Exodus Dtox facility. Uh. He spent the day apparently talking to counselors about his drug use, his life in general. He played with Francis, his daughter. She was not now um. She came to visit him and I think with the nanny, and I believe that then they had a new nanny down in l A. Because they did have this one

living nanny named Callie. He was still in Seattle. Yeah, and they had apparently just they had had a nanny leave them like a month before they really did. But I think that this nanny's name was Elizabeth. That's my guests given some other stuff. But I can't actually corroborate that, So sorry guys if I'm wrong. Also, of note, none of the counselors seemed concerned that he was a risk for self harm or anything like that, which seems like the sort of thing you might be to tell if

somebody was really suicidal. Uh, would at picking that up pretty quick? Yeah, its like it. But maybe I'm just ignorant. But you're not getting their fix a heroine and then all that and then their their their life probably sucks. Yeah, so he might have seemed depressed. He didn't. Probably most of the guys that bring in there and we're kind of down, well it didn't meet him on one of

their worst days. Yeah, I didn't actually seem like it seemed like he was Okay, I mean, obviously he was suffering from heroin withdrawal because you know, and that it was since he was a huge addict, that was that was a big deal. Obviously it wasn't going to be bid for him. But it sounds like the counselors thought he was dealing with it pretty well all things considered. I mean, he was playing with his daughter and stuff. He wasn't like he hadn't self confined himself to his

room or anything like that. It's he seemed to be out kind of doing this whole stuff. Here's a question. Yeah, I don't know the answer to this, and I don't know that I've ever read it anywhere. So five days prior to this, the intervention takes place, five or six days, Uh, do we know? Was he still using prior to arriving at the facility? I would, you know, I would guess that he probably shot up like right before he got on the Okay, I'm in the same boat here thinking

that's probably the situation. But I've never seen anything, so I guess that's possible. I think I see where you're going with this. I guess it's possible that he was still high. I mean that he wasn't actually suffering from withdrawal yet, right, Yeah, so yes, that's possible. Yeah, but I mean he's still you. You would think that people who are trained professionals in talking to people like counselors would at least have an inkling like, oh, yeah, he

did seem a little upset. Yeah, I don't know, call me crazy. I have I know constantly. April one, UM reports are that thirteen calls are made from Love's hotel room to the facility that Cobain was in. It's my understanding that he didn't actually speak to her. It was to the like public phone basically, yeah, the pay phone that was available for all of the patients. They didn't actually speak. He may have spoke to her once, but

that would be it. Um. And I'm unclear if he actually spoke to her once or if they're referring to the fact that he called the hotel and left a message for her. The message he left was, um, he left it with the front counter, the front counter. Yeah, the front counter, front desk, thank you. I don't know why it was the counter. She was staying at a convenience story. Yeah, so at the front desk, and he said, um, Elizabeth's phone number is this is sorry, there would be

a phone number there where this was. He gave her the phone number. Yeah, and he said it was Elizabeth's phone number, so that I think it's the nanny, but I I don't. I don't know. Nobody ever says who Elizabeth happens to be. I'm just assuming it's the nanny. Yeah, yeah, we don't care. Yeah. Sometime during the first Kurt jokes that it would be a really really dumb thing to try to jump that six ft wall back in the back of the facility, and then he does that jump

the ball in the back. Uh, he was out for a cigarette break and just jumped the wall. He caught a cab, went to l a X and gets on a flight to Seattle back home. That's funny. They didn't confiscate his credit cards or anything. Huh, yeah they didn't. But this was not a forced facility. Was a self volunteer, which is why I find it's so weird that he

took the time to jump the wall. If they're letting me hang onto your wallet and your smokes and all of that, then why wouldn't you just say I'm gonna go. I got my My guests would be that he was trying to hide it from people. I presume that if you check yourself out of rehab, they're probably going to call some people and say, hey, just you know, Kurt checked himself out, and then those people are going to call the airport and maybe like run over the airport

and steps before you can get on that plane. And so it's more hassle free if you slip off of the back wall instead of telling everybody about and telling I don't know. It's a theory. It's not a very good theory, but it's theory. I've only been rehab a few times since. It just so happens that Kurt is sitting next to Duff mccagan, who you may know as the basis for Guns and Roses. Cobain and Axl Rose of Guns and Roses apparently had like a pretty big

beef involving Courtney Love. Surprising no one didn't actually have a beef with everybody kind of yeah, there's like twelve of them or something, Yeah, okay, yeah. Mccagan apparently reported that Cobain seemed really happy to see him. He later remarked that from quote all my instincts that something was wrong unquote, one of the things. I How did you know they didn't really know each other that well? Um, I mean, you know, their bands weren't they didn't interact

that much. And you know, the other thing I really struggle with on this one is McKay mccagan was interviewed for a book in two thousand one. So that's one of those things later, really many years later, and you look back and you see one thing tiny a little bit wrong and you think, oh, I should have known. I don't know. It's it's hard to tell if he actually felt that way at that time. And I'm not

saying that he was like intentionally lying about that. I just mean that you do that, like every human does that. You go back and here reinterpret things their memories unintentionally all the time. April twod and third, Cobain is quote spotted unquote around Seattle a number of times. I don't know what that means. It's literally never elaborated on. It's just like when spotted, somebody saw him and they got blurry footage. Yeah, and that's it. Yeah. On April three,

Love hired Tom Grant to quote unquote find Cobain. Who knows. I don't know if she knew where he was or anything like that. That's a big question mark in this whole case, but she hired him anyway. On April four, a police report is filed with Seattle Police by Air quotes Cobain's mother, unquote, stating that he was missing in

suicidal in actuality. Um Tom Grant does have recordings of Love admitting that she actually filed the report and said it was that she was Cobain's mom because I don't know, she thought that people would pay more attention to it. I don't really know, question mark why she did that, but she did. On April seven, Nirvana officially pulls out of Wallapalooza. As I said, they were slated to make a bullload of money. I'm sorry I had the wrong number.

It's nine point five not nine point two million dollars. It's a lot of money. I'll take the change. Yeah, me too. Um Love claims that Whole had actually originally been offered that spot, but turned it down so that Cobain could perform. It sounds like bunked to me. Um. I'm sure that there would be a way to look that up to corroborate it, but frankly, I don't care enough. I don't think it matters enough to this case. Um, so I didn't really waste any time on doing that.

If you happen to know off the top of your head, please send us an email and I will re record this entire episode for exactly probably not sorry for the change, we will. Yeah, the point three millions, for the point three million. Yeah, for the third of a million dollars. Yeah. Absolutely.

On April eight, an electrician named Gary Smith maybe that might not actually be his real name, was dispatched to the house to install so that to sorry, to Cobain and Love's house in Seattle, to install a security system. And here's the question I never see asked is why

I had the very same question. Why, yeah, you know, did somebody call in the order for installation a couple of weeks prior, like did Cobain call before he left for rehab, expecting it to be done when he came back, Or did somebody call them on April eight or April seventh and say, hey, I need a thing installed, can you come do that? Actually, you know what I have. I'll bet you somebody did this well in advance. I was just thinking about the fact that you two know this.

I recently had some electrical work done at my house and it was several weeks out, and this is in the tiny section of town, and my my local electricians

still was weeks away. So I'm certainly, as you're talking about, like, oh, you know what, it's certainly since they're like, okay, we'll be there on the eighth, it's definitely possible that you know, he that Cobaine, you know, apparently reportedly he was worried about his safety and his home that he called as soon as he started being worried about safety and his home and said, actually, yes, I would like a security

system installed. The actually right about when the police confiscated all of those guns, could have been Calie that called to It could have been anybody that made the call requesting the service. But again it's kind of one of those like why aren't people asking that question? Well, the question in my mind and is, um, why this guy shows up without calling a head first to make sure there's gonna be somebody there with keys to let him into places and stuff like that. He just shows up. Yeah,

you know that was a little strange. Yeah, of course, maybe maybe the appointment he assume there was going to be somebody there. He gets there, there's nobody there, but he starts, you know, nosing around. Maybe he was well, I mean, maybe he was knocking on the door or to see if there's somebody home. The worst case scenario, you show up, nobody's there, you spend five minutes there, and electricians buill by the hour. So I just build

an hour where it's work. It's hard. I mean again, it's the other question I guess is like, why was he poking around this greenhouse area? They might have gone to the house first and got no response, and then and then he goes the spots what looks it looks like a mother in law apartment over the garage, and thanks, I'll go up there and have a look sae, Yeah

we should probably Yeah. So anyway, uh, Smith walks around what they called the greenhouse, which is it does look kind of like a mother in law apartment above the garage, which is separate from the house. Yeah, there's a wall. No, I think there's a door from the house into the greenhouse from a defunct room. I don't know that it

matters very much, but it's a separate building from the house. Basically, he looks through a window because it is a greenhouse, so it's all windows, looks through a window, doors because no, I'm sorry, it looks like a greenhouse because it's painted green. On the outside. There's windows, there's lots of skylights. But don't call it a greenhouse because it's not actually a greenhouse. It's it's part of the garage that happens to have

a ton of windows in it. Okay, that's fair. Yeah, I mean it's an apartment for for lack of a better turn, kind of yeah, it's just one big room though, So anyway, it doesn't really matter either way. It's this. They call it the greenhouse, so I'm going to keep calling it a green which is fine. I just want to make sure that we understand it's not an actual greenhouse sitting on top of their garage. So he sees a body lying in the greenhouse with a small amount

of blood near him. This is how he describes it. He apparently initially thought that Cobain was asleep. Um, but he saw the gun shot and like a little bit of blood or not the gun shot, the shotgun, um, and a little bit of blood. So he called his boss, understandable, and his boss called the radio station. I don't know if that's true either. Either way, the cops did get called and they came out. The police, they came out. Um, they arrived, they found that the door was locked. The

door to the greenhouse was locked. So they broke one of the It was you know, like French doors because all paneled class. So they broke one of the windows next to the knob and unlocked it. It was one of those knob locks that you just twist the little lock on the knob. There was no bolt or anything.

So if you commit murder, you yeah, And that is another important, another important key to this whole thing is in fact, the door was that way and there you will also see that there was a stool, you know, wedged up against the door. But that's also not true. There's a stool sitting kind of in front of a door, a door, not this door, a different door into the room. So again important little details. The officer that responded also showed up with a paramedic, because of course you would,

and they reported a relatively small amount of blood. But the paramedic did say that it was clear that Cobain was dead, so they didn't try to do any kind of resuscitation or anything like that. Well, the guys shot half of his face off of the show. It sounds like, although I don't know that is true. I mean, I've never seen a Corners report and I've never seen any pictures, so I don't know for that half of his face was missing, but yeah, it sounds like he was missing.

Probably didn't look so good because I know the Seattle PD still won't release any of those photographs, specifically because they don't think that anybody should see it. Um Cobain's wallet was sitting next to him, and the officer pulled his ID out to identify him and they took a picture.

So that's another clue is they said they couldn't identify him they had to use his fingerprints to officially identify him, but they used his I D when they took a picture of the body to identify who the body was.

His coat was on his left side, a brown paper bag with shotgun shells was by his left foot, a cigar box with all of his hair, heroin paraphernalia, and his wallet were on his right side, kind of a little further away from him, not just like right next to the body, and there were cigarette butts on the right side kind of above his head, a root beer can on his left side by his head, and then in the dirt on his left side was a note stuck in the dirt with the red pin that the

dirt and the flower in the dirt in a flower. It's a flower bed, little flower bed, next little box. Yeah, so presumably with the pen that he had written the note in was stuck in the dirt through the paper in the dirt. We're gonna talk about details in a minute, but I want to finish the timeline in five hours. For some reason, despite all odds, the police declared his death and undeniable suicide at the scene and released Cobain's body to Love like within a couple of days. Um

she had him cremated shortly afterwards. On April tenth, there was a public memorial that was held for Cobain, which featured Courtney Love reading Cobain's suicide note. So she read the entire thing. Apparently she arrived later and gave away some of Cobain's clothes. So there's a really quick overview of the timeline of this whole thing. And I guess we have a few more things to talk about before

we talk about theories. I'm so sorry. You guys say you like long episodes, so you know, if you don't like the long episode, just put us on pause and come back tomorrow. Did you pause it? Welcome back. We're serialized, so bullet points. While people close to Cobain differ greatly in opinion on whether it was a suicide or not, I do think they agree. He was unhappy with his life. You can tell. You can tell that from a suicide note,

that he's there's a lot of self loathing in there. Yeah, and we'll talk about the suicide note in a minute. But he was happier once he had some health issues resolved, and with the birth of his daughter, he seemed to really really love her. But in general, let's agreed that Cobain was not happy with being part of a huge band like Nirvana, did not want fame. He wanted to just kind of be able to create. There's actually a

quote from Courtney. After they got married, he canceled a couple of tours and she said all he wanted to do was do drugs and like paint, Like that's all he wanted to do. And that sounds very true. To me, in the interviews I've seen with Cobain, he just seemed like he was a guy who just wanted to create, and he like hated, for instance, hated smells like teen Spirit,

hated it. Weved it. Yeah, but of course he had to do it, and they had to do it every single performance because it was one of the biggest hits. And it sounds to me like there could be worst problems to have. He could have had to sing Freebird at every concert. That's true, he could have. Luckily he

didn't write free Bird, so luckily. Yeah. In that the other documentary, one of the other many documentaries, but the other big one, um Curt and Courtney, Kurt's aunt, who I frankly find to be one of the most credible character witnesses of this whole entire thing. Yeah, she says that she has no doubt that he just hated the world that he was living in. She thought that, um, he felt it was really fake and he hated it. I actually I attribute her his his aunt's statements to its.

Nicholas Brufield is at the documentary that guy I recognized as soon as I started watching it, recognized the style. He's got a very distinct style, and I watched his other stuff before. Yeah, you have actually for this show even Yeah, but he has a really good way of interviewing people, and he tends to draw out a lot

of little bits of information that nobody else does. I mean, everybody's after the big, glamorous interview, and he's like, I'll talk to anybody, and it usually is for the better for him because he gets information that most people wouldn't.

So I personally I attribute all of her information to his absolutely, Yeah, because you never hear about her anywhere, so you don't and I think, I mean, you hear about his cousin, who I think is full of crap um, and you hear about his parents a little bit but not very much. But his aunt they seem to be very close, and um, I really think that she has

the most insight to what Cobain was really like. So there's that Nirvana was probably breaking up either way, because it sounded like court really Kurt, Kurt really didn't want to do stay anymore. He was done too. Yeah. Almost everyone close to this case says that they are scared of Courtney Love, which is fair. She's scary. Uh. It sounds like Kurt Cobain and Courtney of we're probably getting a divorce and love was probably being written out of

Cobaine's will. I obviously there's no way to corroborate that, but it sounds like statements from Rosemary Carroll who's who again. She won't go on record to say this, but Tom Grant does have recordings of her saying this, So it sounds like love was being written out of Cobaine's will.

I've seen reports that Cobaine's credit card was being used after his death or they were missing, and I don't I haven't been able to find this information from anywhere but Tom Grant, so take it with a grain of salt. It also appears that Courtney canceled all of Cobaine's cards, believing that it would cut him off and cause him to contact her again. That's all from Tom Grant. I don't know. There's no other way to corroborate it as that. That's not necessarily from Tom Grant as much as that's

from Courtney Love. Yeah, she's the one who said that she did it. Yeah, she said that she canceled them. I don't whether she did or didn't. Yeah, So I don't know again there's I can't corroborate it, but I thought i'd mention it. And then um, we talked about Callie a little bit. He was the only person that I was gonna he was apparently actually living in the house in Washington in Seattle, uh, the entire time, basically

as a caretaker, living roommates. Yeah, but like Kurt was dead in the house for like three days, four days before his body was discovered. So no, not in the main house, that's true, But he had to have been at the house at some point. Well, and Kelly's got on record of saying that he saw Yeah, but he showed up one so I think yeah, he said he came to visit um Callie and his girlfriend in bed. So there you go. Okay, awkward, We're you know, an

hour in and done with the overview. You're welcome, Thanks, You're welcome. So theories were there finally after ten hours. It's gonna keep getting longer, and I will just think, once again, remind people that we're doing ever of the case because there's so much, there's so many theories, there's so much information here. I like, literally can't I don't have the physical capability my voice is already starting to go. Okay. So let's basically there's two theories, right, because this is

a Devin episode. Um, the two theories are he was murdered or it was suicide. Well, actually, it could have been an accident to maybe he just bought a shotgun and he was and he tripped and fell backwards with it. Now he was actually I think he was standing there like like looking down the barrel just to see if there are any obstructions in or anything like. I don't think that happens. Alright, So let's talk about murder first. We can do that. Um, we're just gonna bullet point

real quick here. Some of the things that people bring up, why do people think it's murder? Uh? One of the questions people ask is why would a rich man kill himself? Well, that's a dumb question. Yeah, it happens, happens a lot often. Yeah. Um, the divorce that he would rather kill himself than divorced. He actually said that in a note somewhere at some point was an interview he said, actually I think he said it in a note to Courtney. Nirvana was breaking up, so, um,

he was keeping people from money. He was scared for a retaliation, right, So like somebody could have killed him because they were okay, because if you're going to kill him, then you're he's gonna that's fine whatever. Um, there were no fingerprints on the shells, slash guns, slash pen, slash insert thing here. We're going to talk about that. Yeah, we're going to talk about people say he wasn't quote unquote, he wasn't suicidal. There was a lot of heroin in

his body, along with some other stuff. And people also say that the note wasn't a suicide note or it was faked. Um. And there's like a handwriting sample thing that we're going to talk about in a minute. So those are all the reasons people say it was murder. Next theory, just kidding. We're going to talk about some of these things in detail, but not all of them. So here we go. The gun. We talked about this a little bit, alright, a little bit. Yeah it is.

It's the twenty gage shotgun which Dylan bought for Kurt. The gun was a long barrel gun, but I don't think the barrel was so long that Cobain could have um not reasonably pulled the trigger himself. I think it would have he would have been able to totally do that. It's got to be a really big gun to not be able to pull the trigger yourself. Yeah, that doesn't concern me. The issue people they have a few issues with the gun, and some of them might. Yeah, Okay.

First of all, the shell casing, the Spence shell casing was on the opposite side of Cobain's body from where it would have ejected from the gun. It was a semi auto, so it is reasonably automatically. Yeah, and he was holding the gun upside down down, so the ejection port would have been on his right, but the casing was on his left. Yes, that makes people suspicious. It makes people suspicious, I guess I agree. I think it's reasonable to say that it could have bounced off his

arm um, it could have bounced up his arm. It could have if you'd been holding it like even a little bit of an angle. It could have ejected somewhat upwards, bounced off. Because that was a fairly skinny little room that he was in. I don't think it was that skinny. According to this the diagram I saw, it didn't look that big. It's huge, but it's not. I don't think it's big. Couldn't have hit the wall on the opposite side and bounced back? Joe that I don't think. I

think that's too far. Well, most things get flung out with a lot of forests. They do, but they're also super light, and so they burn up their inertia quite quickly. I mean, chuck on shells don't fly more than four or five feet at best on their own without a wind fly further than that. Well, but I'm I'm making a generality here. What I'm saying is that there's no way it could have hit the wall and bounced all traveled all the way back from where to where it originated,

and then continued on. The room is too big for that to have happened. I feel the same way. But there's other things too that he could have. Maybe he wasn't holding the gun upside down when he actually pulled the trigger, and maybe he was. Maybe he was holding it sort of flat against his body and I went up in the air. Maybe he was standing up when he shot himself. He well, I will, I will agree with Joe. So I know that you're going to talk about a little bit of how we know that the

gun was upside down. But Joe makes a very good point of if he was standing upright and the gun was not upside down. By upside down, I think we should explain this to folks. That means the trigger is pointing up in the air instead of down at the floor like you would normally hold a gun. But if he did have it so it wasn't at a hundred eighty degrees away from where it traditionally would be held, but say only ninety degrees, then the casing would go

down to the floor and could ricochet anywhere. Or if he is sitting, if he had done that, it could have bounced off. Well, yeah, that's if he's standing, or if he's sitting when he uses it, it can ricochet off his arm or his leg to end up on the opposite side. So it's completely plausible, is the only thing I'm getting at. But there's a whole bunch of vectors that it could have taken. Yeah, if he had been reaching down, then his arm definitely would have been

right in the way of the injection. Yes, yeah, And I guess you know, for me, it's just a question of how fast does that happen? And you know, the gun would have had to have been a slight angle, because if for it to bounce off and then bounce over instead of bounced just right like back at the gun, you know, it wouldn't have ejected exactly right to bounce off his arm then. But I guess I don't. I

don't really have a problem with that. It's interesting because people say that this is proof that there was someone else in the room because it had to have bounced off someone else, But I don't think that's true, particularly because it means that Cobain he had what's called a death grip on the barrel in layman's terms. In Layman's terms, yeah, and that happens surprisingly just moments after death. Your hand just like freezes up and yeah, basically right at death.

So there would have been no time for somebody to stage that. So he was holding the gun and his hand was tight enough on the barrel that it They think that it didn't spin around, that it was the position the gun was found in, was where the position was when Uh probably, Yeah. So I guess the thing that I always have problem with is people say, well, it means somebody else was in the room, but well, no, it doesn't. I mean he was holding the barrel in

his mouth either way. Okay, no, I can play Devil's advocate on that entirely. If somebody else is in the room and they are trying to get him in, there's some kind of struggle and he grabs the gun and other said person somehow accidentally pulls the trigger and it goes off, that just means that his his hand was on the barrel, it's all it means. It doesn't mean that there's no way somebody else couldn't have been there. Somebody could have been there. I don't think that. I

don't think. I don't think based on everything I've read. But I'm just saying it's entirely possible that there could have been a quote unquote struggle for the weapon and it went off while he happened to be holding the barrel, and therefore, as this murder theory loves to point out, everything was then stage. Yeah, okay, that's a good point. I guess I hadn't really thought of that, so I

guess we're gonna get into that. But if they were trying to murder him, then are people also saying that somebody else forced him to take three times as much hair? I want as he should have taken Yes, But we will get into that in just a second. I want to there is a couple more things about the gun that I want to talk about first, and then we're going to talk about drugs, because this is one episode. Drugs and guns and stuff like that makes for the

best parties, it really does. The gun is, I will mention, still in police custody. If you follow this case at all, you will know that just very recently, in fact, the Seattle Police Department released pictures of one of their officers holding the gun that Kurt Cobain died from a gunshot wound from, and they still have it there. You will hear people say, oh yeah, they released it into the custody of Courtney Love and she melted it down to

the hide evidence. That didn't happen. The police still have it. It's still in evidence. Okay, I'm melting it down. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Another issue with the gun is reportedly they didn't find fingerprints on the gun or shells, which is it happens, but also it's inaccurate information. What really

happened is um the report states. Again, I looked at the actual police report and it says that there are no prints of quote comparative value, which just means that they were all smudge, which makes sense because they would be probably absolutely And the real issue here, though, is that the gun wasn't even inspected for Prince until like three years after like literally, they didn't submit these fingerprint results for analyzation analyzation analysis, thank you, until which is

three years after Kirk. That's a failing on the part of the place based on their reasoning of the cause of death. Yea, they had this thing about not processing anything on suicide. They didn't even develop the film. Yeah, weird, bad, bad practices all around. So and we'll talk a little bit more about that minute. But that's my issue with fingerprints, not that they couldn't find anything, because like of course, like fingerprints are mostly smudgy. It's rare that you find

a good one. Okay, now we can talk about drug you're talking about rugs. So Cobain, it was reported had three times the lethal dose of heroin in his body when he died, and there's some debate only around this case is the only time I've ever seen this debate ever, But what the lethal doses? What the well, if there's this ceiling or not for heroin. In this case, it's the only time I've ever seen anybody say, oh yeah, no, no, no,

the lethal dose is a lethal dose for heroin. People can take only a certain amount before they become incapacitated. Literally every other case I've ever heard with heroin, and when we corroborated this with some experts, there is no ceiling for heroin. You can pretty much keep taking it. I mean increasing dose, take increasing doses over time. Obviously, Yeah, you build up a tolerance, and once you have a high enough tolerance, I mean you actually need more to

feel the same high. And you do develop that tolerance, and you will still be totally capable of moving around and doing things. Whereof somebody like if I injected that amount of heroine it would definitely kill me. But if I had been doing heroin for ten years in an increasing in incrementally increasing amount, I would probably you just don't ceiling, not any drug. It's specifically that is the case.

And actually their interviews where Cobain says that he at one point in his life he was doing four dollars worth of heroin a day, which is a lot of heroine. Holy crap, that's from the ahead. I'm sorry, UM, no, as gonna say. Tom Grant, the private investigator, he continually has made the point that he would have been totally incapacitated immediately. He would have Yeah, he would have had you know, like no time to you know, check out the shotgun. Oh sorry, sorry, sorry, Tom Grant would have

been stated Cobain. I don't think he would have. He he had one point five millgrams per leader of heroin was reported to be in his body. Um and I actually asked, it's important, though, for everybody to understand he's injecting. Yeah, he's injecting its intervited intervenous use, intronous invened. I still can't say that word. Um and I actually checked. I checked with a fair a couple of our experts, and

they all agreed. They are all in medical professions, they all have seen cases of heavy heroin use, and they all agreed that it's totally reasonable to expect that somebody with a high tolerance would be totally capable of moving around and doing things with that amount of to heroin in their body. And I should also mention that it's not like we're saying, oh and then Cobain got up

and ran a marathon. We're talking about could he have rolled down his sleeve, put his paraphernale away and pull the trigger right, absolutely, like, yeah, you can crawl while you're doing that, right, it's small movements. Well, and that that would indicate the weirdo writing that is on the note that everybody, it would it would also help explain that. Yeah.

But you'll see in Soaked and Bleached, the team maintains that there was a study that was done, quote unquote study that was done where there's a picture of a guy who's standing on one leg and you know, doctors say, well, he took um you know, the equivalent of methodone tabs that Cobain had in his body, and look at he's standing on one foot. He's totally fine. And the Soaked and Bleached team says, but no, he it's methodone, so it's less and tags. He took it as a pill.

He didn't inject it, so that's not admissible. But I think anecdotal evidence from the health people that we talked to UM who are all named Stephanie, Corey and Lisa Um, they all agreed absolutely, yeah, no question. Somebody with that amount of heroin and them body could totally. And that's that's the reason that I was asking earlier though about his um if we knew if he had used during that week after the intervention, and then if he had

used just before he got to the rehab clinic. And we also don't know if he was using while he was in Seattle before he did that confident that you know after April one he was on a bender. I'm not disagreeing with that at all, but it does make you wonder because it's we've all seen those cases of where somebody who did something to access took a certain amount of time off, their tolerance dropped a little bit, and then they went right back to their old ways,

and that's what put him in the ground. But I don't know that. Yeah, I know what you're talking about, but I don't know how long you had to be off with where the taller goes away, I don't don't. I don't think two days off. Well, that's why I was wondering about that. If he had stopped after the intervention forward and so then that would be a week week and a half issue, which again I don't think it's a whole lot, but your body does slowly heal

itself from the damage that you intentionally do to it. Yeah. He and he also had valley um in his bloodstream. Yeah, and I don't know where he got that Courtney loves prescription. Probably well, I don't remember. Well, but I don't know if he got that from the plant, or if he got it from his drug dealer or where he got it. Yeah, I don't know either, but I think he probably got it from the medicine cabinet in the bathroom. Probably probably, yeah, probably. Yeah.

You know. The other fun fact I guess. But the other interesting fact about him is that if you've noticed, I don't know if either of you notice this in the photos, he's wearing a Tom Peterson watch. And I mean the death Saying photos. Yeah, yeah, it's Tom. You know Tom Interloria too. Yeah, he's wearing a Tom Peterson watch. For anybody who doesn't know, Tom Peterson had a chain of stores in the Pacific Northwest and yeah they well, and he tried to get an electronics But it's it's

his head. He's always showed at these gigantic proportions. It's this weird black and white photos style really recognize. But it was he had. When you see him one of the photos that they released, he's wearing a Tom Peterson. I'm gonna go back and look if you want to see Tom Peterson rent drug Store, Cowboy, a couple of movement. And he also was in My Own Private at Oh he has got a bit part is I think the chief of police. And I don't think he even says

any words. But have you seen My Own Private It's been a million years. Yeah yeah, so's just like the length of this episode exactly. But if you watch but if you watch My Own Private at home, he plays the chief of police. Okay, there you go, all right, that's Tom Peterson and Gloria too. The other thing I want to talk about is the note, and I really don't want to talk about it for very long, but um, this suicide note was addressed to Cobain's imaginary friend Bata.

Did you guys watch Kurt and Courtney? Oh yeah, I like legitimately cried when his aunt played the recordings of him as like a two year old like talking to Bata because that's so sad, Like I can't imagine going through something like I was. I didn't cry, but it does make you feel just a twinch of set says here this guy that's dead, so just a little kid with this whole life, and that I'm talking about Bota, his imaginary friend Bota. We're not going to read the letter.

It's long and it's very easy to find. I just wanted to say that I do agree that the note looks odd, but I think there are a lot of ways to explain that. I will agree also that the bulk of the note sounds like Cobain was just writing to his fans. He used to do that. I don't know if either of you guys have ever seen this, but he used to write letters to the fan club, like literally write handwritten notes and then photocopy them and send them to all of the fans of Nirvana. Um.

And he would do like newsletters. He was running, I mean, he was basically running his own fans, yeah, kind of and were not really a zine. It was literally just like notes. But he called him newsletters, and so that was the sort of thing he would do in the beginning, and I think he probably didn't do it as much. I don't know, um frankly, if he did it in the in the Middle Times, but to me, the bulk of the note, the main body of it, does sound like it reads exactly like the way he wrote to

his fans. It sounds like he is writing to his fans saying like listen, Nirvana is no more basically, or I'm not going to be in music anymore. Um. And then it's true that it's not really until the last couple of lines that it sounds like to me a

suicide note suddenly changes in tone a little bit, definitely does. Yeah, it's just like this letter that sounds like he's writing to his fans, and then suddenly it's like, I love you, keep going, and it's different, slightly different looking handwriting, although it still looks like it's his handwriting. But you know, I've seen other things that that Cobain wrote and it's very similar. You know, see other ones where he's he's it's kind of tiny and at the bottom it gets

real big and that's not enough. That's the heroine kicking in. Or you have no idea, or if it's just larger letters for emphasis, Yeah, I don't know. Rosemary Carroll, who remembers a lawyer, claims to have found a handwriting Sam Ball in a bag that Courtney Love left at her house. What's she doing? Written around the bag. She left it there for weeks apparently, so she like went through it.

I don't know. Again, it's hard to tell, um, but it looked like they could have traced it's a practice sheet. It looks like a practice sheet for anybody who doesn't know what that is. It's where you copy somebody else's letters and then practice writing them to look like it's in their hand. Right. But that's a sheet. Is whether this is or is not, that's what it's called. So that is what he practiced, is Yeah, And I don't I've never seen a picture of this alleged practice sheet,

so I don't know. That's not a picture of it somewhere there's okay, I don't know. I can't find it online anywhere. It seems like that's the sort of thing that you would like post everywhere. Has it though? Yeah? But he I don't know if he does actually Okay, Well, I was under the impression that Tom Grant had it, And if Tom Grant has is it, there is no way, under God's greener he's going to let that thing out on the internet, because then he can't be you know,

that's this is his cash. Yeah, that's yeah, that's true. But as far as if Courtney was learning to imitate his writing, that could have been for other reasons other than forging a suicide. Now, but she forged some stuff in his name before. Yeah, exactly, So yeah, that'sn't necessary. No, I agree with um. And then I do want to point out that when Grant tells people that quote unquote,

handwriting experts have said that the last bit looks different. Um, what he really means is that the quality of the scan that he, in his own words, tricked Love out of having is too low quality for anybody to be able to actually accurately analyze it. He was the fact he did. He told Courtney that he was gonna just look at it with his glasses on and then stole it from her, which is kind of shady in its own right. I agree both of them were not, but I don't blame him. I would have. I'm sorry, but

if you know, I don't. I don't call fowl on that at all. No, I don't really call foul either. I just like a little shady. But like I said, both of them acting not the best, but the copy that he has which is the only copy that you know really exists right now. Courtney obviously isn't about to release the original. Anybody who looks at it can't actually analyze it, so worth mentioning. Okay, Courtney does have the original run she reportedly, Yeah, the police didn't take it.

She got it best it because I mean that's how great got a copy of it. Yeah, okay. So, um, if he was murdered, who did it? Well, obviously like Courtney would have ordered it, right, I think she would have overpowered him. That's the well, I mean, the theory is is like Corney paid somebody to kill Kurt rather than doing it as a through the sheer force of her own will. Yeah yeah, well, plus Courtney was still in l A right Yeah. So um, here are some

answers to who might have killed Kurt Cobain. Uh. One is a guy by the name of Alan Wrench Um this theory you will probably know um more by a guy named El Deucee Douche or Ell Douce. It's Luche, which is a total gag. I mean it's not his real name. His name made up play on another word that is a hygiene product. I mean it's it's this guy's band did some really weird stuff and I know that that's where that. Yeah, we're going to talk about

his Yeah. The way that we know about this guy, whose real name is Elden Hope, was because this filmmaker we were talking about earlier, Nick Broomfield, who did the documentary Kurta and Courtney, he found this guy through like a really shady weird He was like talking to two dudes, one of whom refused to show his face on camera, and they were like gonna help him break into where Courtney was recording so they could get an interview, and

like it was really really kind of like weird stuff. Yeah, and then they said, oh, actually we know this guy who says that um Courtney offered to pay money, So like let's go down there and just see to kill to kill Cobain. Yeah. Uh. And his name was l Duce, again not his real name. He was the lead singer of a band called the Mentors, and he was also, uh, totally a drunk when Broomfield interviewed him at his property in California. He was super drunk. Oh, he was so loaded.

He was so loaded in fact, that he offered to provide more information if they got him some more beer. That's how drunk he was. But he like nonchalantly mentions that Love offered him fifty dollars to kill Colbain. Uh. He said he turned it down, but that his friend,

quote Alan, had done it. I've done some digging, and the guy that he's talking about is apparently a guy called Alan Wrench, which probably is not this guy's real name, who used to play for a band called Road Horror, which basically didn't exist, or at least I literally can't

find any bit of it online either way. I've read a few things about this, mostly on Reddit, so take it with a grain of salt, please, where somebody on Reddit claims to have been friends with both El Duce and Alan, and this user claims that l d would never hurt anybody for money, but that Alan was a jerk and would totally kill somebody. Well, there we go, concrete evidence. Who was sent by Ikea because he was

the wrong size for the piece of furniture that somebody bought. Well, so was the thing nobody would give this guy, even like moments thought, except for that two days after l Ducha gave his interview interview to Broomfield. He ended up dead by getting hit by a train. Um, so, I mean that's kind of the big question mark. His death was ruled accidental by police. And apparently l Ducha did have a track record of people needing to babysit him when he was dumb, because when he was drunk, because

he would do stupid things. But the train he was hit by was kind of near his house, so that makes sense. But in this read a threat again, take it with a grain of salt. This guy says that l Duch was hanging out with a friend, Um and other member of the Mentors, which, by the way, their band. Yeah, the band called Sicky wife Beater, which really great names white trash actually white trash. That's not fair to white trash.

Actually do you did you ever read any of the lyrics to some of the I did not because I didn't want to subject to my up to it. Holy how it's Yeah. So apparently Alan shows up, um when l Duch is hanging out with Sicky wife Beater, and um, he was angry that al Douche had said some stuff on the movie. How he two days after he gave an interview, how he found out that l do had like said those things. Who knows, that's easy. That's the

grape vine have you have you. I have spent enough time with drunks and folks of that ilk that the grape vibe people just sit around and they love to tell what the what other people did. And I can just see that getting back to if this really happened. I'm not saying this is really happening, but I can see it very easily, getting back to the guy lightning

fast and he coming over the next day and confronting him. Yeah, so that's I mean, the story goes that Alan shows up, he's annoyed, they leave together, and then they could be morning to continue the interview. Yeah, and the next morning I'll do winds up hit by a train. You know, I gotta tell you, I uh, I was gonna murder somebody getting a run over by a train with that myself getting run over to it just seems like a tough way to do it. It seems like there's easier ways,

not if they're drunk. I was, yeah, I was gonna say, now you know the train track, let's walk this way. Hey, come on, drunkie McGhee. Um, look, there's training mctrain face going by right now and shove. Oh you're getting sleepy. This is a great place from you. I mean, it's not nice. Um, I don't really believe it, although I

will say it is. I get like, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, it is a little weird that two days after he said he totally knew who killed Kurt Cobain and made it look like an accident or or a suicide. Uh, he shows up dead by a mysterious getting hit by train accident and then the internet's favorite kind of coincidence it is. Yeah, and it's one of mine too. Actually, actually pretty cool that, you know, you would think that Alan Ranch would have

gone and baited visit to Nick Broomfield. It's cameraman too. You would think he did know how to get a hold of him. Broomfield was up and down the West Coast. Yeah, I don't know so. Um. One of the other people that could have done it, I guess is the nanny Calli. So we're under our next suspect. Yeah, I don't think Calli probably did it, but I guess there's something to be said of like maybe they were getting high together. I don't really Okay, Yeah, I was gonna say this again.

I was actually surprised that he is not as much of a suspect as he is. I really expected people to be like I could totally see those two in the Greenhouse using and then something happening and CALLI being like, I gotta go, oh crap. I mean, I can see this very easily being the case. Yeah, but I just don't know. Yeah, yeah, I can't see it myself. I

can't either. But I don't know anything about Callie's well, I don't know anything about Callie either, But I mean I just know that I think Callie and what was he the guy who bought the Dylan, both of them, I think they lived off of the Cobain money for a long time after Kurt was gone through Courtney, she supported them. So I'm sure that if something happened and it was an accident, I could see him going, oh god,

I just did this. Oh God, I am so screwed because I can't afford this much heroin and I had this great gig going on and I'm just gonna walk out of the room and I wasn't here, yea, So it was yeah, well, yeah, I saw he was playing with the shock Enny blue Kurt's head off, or they were screwed or arguing or whatever. I mean, because there is the letter that was left on the stairs that Grant Tom Grant, Yeah, from Cali. The Tom Grant says was a forgery of some kind. There's all kinds of

machinations about it. But the point is he wrote a letter and it wasn't all that positive to Kurt, and he could have done that after the fact, going I was there, let's do this thing to direct suspicion weight for me. I guess the only again, I'm playing Devil's here totally absolutely, But I think like the problem I have with that is that it was It's totally reasonable

for Callie to have found the body. You know, like if you if that happened, you like wait a day, right, and then you call the cops and you say, oh my god, I just found my employer's body. That implies logical raps sober sober thinking. You're right, that's true when you are do use. We don't know that CALLI was using at all. Yeah, Keli was totally in in the on the team. How how is it to you hire a nanny for your daughter because it's your friend. You want to help her love. Yeah, if you want to

help your friends, so you help your friend out. And you just know usual while you're watching the kid, your girlfriend can get high. But you, I mean, people do this kind of weird stuff all the time. So that's why I say that it's completely plausible. Okay, here's just one more interesting thing before we start talking about maybe

it was suicide. Courtney Love alleged that Kurt Cobain was having an affair, specifically that he was having an affair with Um, the bassis of Love's band Hole Um, whose name was Kristen Faff, and at the very least, Faff and Cobain were very good friends. I don't know if they were having an affair or not, but um, I don't think we'll ever know. Uh. She, like almost everybody else in this entire story, had a pretty strong heroin addiction.

She had gone to detox in February of um and she was reportedly clean, but took Cobain's death really, really hard, as you can imagine a close friend or potentially lover who knows dies in kind of a brutal, violent way. Um, she quit whole and decided to move back to Minneapolis, where she was originally from. She was living in Seattle at the time. Well that's where the scene was. Yeah, that's that's where well, that's where hole was whole all

live together, that's where Seattle. Yeah. On June sixteenth night, however, she was found dead of a heroin overdose in her apartment in Seattle. Well, I mean that a lot of people do think this death was pretty suspicious. Even fast family feels that her death wasn't a suicide or an accidental overdose. They think there was some foul play involved. And yeah, every time I hear about some junkie turning up dead of an overdose. Yeah, yeah. She had reportedly

been like successfully clean for those months. And again, you know, it's like she was in Seattle, she was with her friends. She's probably using again. Um, but that's the same thing that I talked about before, those that if you're off of it for a while and you're like, hey, I can take three CC's no problem, I don't know, and it doesn't work, and then that's what puts you in the ground. I thought one website very eloquently put it that both fat and Cobain were in the process of

leaving Love. It's I mean, it's true. Yeah, that's very true. They were both leaving her and standing in her way of a lot of success and money. Basically, Um, but that's, you know, just one one person theory. Next up, let's talk a little bit about the number two, number two super number two. He had a number two suicide in this eighteen hour episode. In an interview one of Cobain's friends, I got to be honest, I do not recall which one said that if Courtney Love didn't kill or have

Cobain killed, that she drove him to it. And I think I don't really like Courtney Love very much. It may may not be coming across, but I don't really like her very much. I think that she wanted a lot of things that Colbain did not want. I think she was really worried about the money in the relationship, the fame and the relationship. I think she wanted a lot of things and was trying to push him to do a lot of things that he didn't necessarily want

to do. I mean, you know, case in points, she really did not approve of him, like canceling, lollapalooza, Yah, she really did not a lot of money. She really did not approve of him, like not having Nirvana be a thing anymore. Yeah, I think that she was very controlling. I mean of her referred to as a harpie before, which I will not disagree to a point. Seems to be an accurate description of her behavior at the time.

And I'm not I'm not saying that's her or the drugs or what, but you know what I mean, it's easy to to point the finger after the fact. It's the same thing as as the he was suicidal in Rome. Yeah, it's easy to say after fact, look at how controlling she Wasn't all these things she did that drove him to do. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's turned the coin which way you want. Well, I guess you know.

One of the things I'll point out is that she hired a private detective to find Kurt and then play games, and well, she stayed in l A. She knew Cobain was in Seattle, but she stayed in l A because she said she had business to take care of down there. If you really thought that your husband was like suicidal and like on a bender, if you knew in what city he was in. Would you just be like, you know what, I'm just gonna stay here though, I'm not going to go up there. And yeah, I can find

again rational sober thinking. But also, you know, she did hire a private detective. I mean, it's certain amount of expense to go to to try to track down your potentially suicidal husband. She did. Yeah, so I mean, you know, again, it's flipped of a coin either way. I I think it's likely that she wanted a lot from her life that Cobain didn't. And it does sound like they were in the process us of they're at least in a rough patch. She tried to get into movies after she wasn't.

She did at least one vie. I thought she did one or two movies after she cleaned up. I mean, she really was striving for that music Hollywood fame model. And it sounds like and it sounds like Cobain really did not like that. He wanted to live a totally different life. And so, you know, who can say what causes somebody to kill themselves. But I'm not saying that she helped the situation at all. But I'm also not

saying he's she's responsible either. Yeah, Cobain. So here's some like we're just kind of listing off, sorry, like reasons that he might have killed himself. Cobain had been apparently trying to get clean for a while. He'd gone to rehab and detox a number of times and it had never stuck. So it's possible that he just hit a point where he was like, this is never gonna work. I'm going to live my life as an addict and that's just dumb and I don't want to do it.

And I'm noting that as like that's what I think people should be feeling. I'm saying that as that's something that I've read from people talking about interpretation. No, no, no, I mean like people who are actual in recovery saying I hit a point in my life where I thought this isn't worth living. I can't do this, I can't ever get clean, and it's not worth living if I can't get clean, and then trying to kill themselves and

obviously being unsuccessful and eventually being successful in recovering. But that's a that's a fairly common thought with like very heavy addicts of certain things. I can see that, you know, you realize the necessity to get clean, but you realize at the same time it's like your life as a non high person is like just kind of like hell, well, if that or I mean if that or that, you will never like, if you've tried to get clean a number of times and it keeps not working, you may

just think it's never gonna happen. I'm always going to be addicted to heroin. I may as well just kill myself. You know, Yeah, there's a well, there's a is not the only addiction. I mean, addictions in general causes that reaction or the thought process, and then I guess another thing to bring up. Um, I know, I you know, I've been harping on the He wasn't suicidal. He wasn't suicidal. They weren't suicide attempts. But you know what, maybe he was.

Maybe he actually did try to kill himself in Rome. Maybe he actually did try to kill himself in his house in Seattle and March eighteenth, but they were trying to cover it up because I mean, it's totally possible that he was suicidal and that at every turn, every attempt, there was just a pr push to say no, no, no, no, no,

he's not suicidal. These are all accidents because you don't like who what publicist in this world is like, yeah, it's totally fine to tell everybody that my client is suicidal, and you know, like that's not that's not good. So it's it's certainly possible. The police report did say he said he wasn't suicidal, but like maybe he realized that it Like you don't tell a police officer I'm suicide. Yeah yeah, they all will take you to jail, they'll

lock you up, they'll put health Yeah yeah. Well here's why. I'm sure Courtney Love did not murder him or have him murdered, and she didn't have to hit the hand strength. Well yeah, I don't. I don't believe el Duch who you know about the offer or anything like that. And the thing about it is is Courtney Um is the one who initiated the intervention to try to get him

cleaned up. And I gotta tell you, if you're planning on murdering your husband, if you want him dead, why would you want to get him off heroin I'd be the last thing in the world you would do. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean if I had been and she's obviously was, she was a drug. She had good connections street hair when it was like what maybe at the most, and she probably had the connections to get some really super pure stuff she could just Maybe that's why he had

so much of his names. Maybe she did try to kill him. Maybe she got some super pure stuff swapped it in with his and that's how we wanted was so much. Heroin is his system. But I think more likely he was planning on killing himself and he thought he'd just go out on the floating on the greatest

high ever is what I think he did. Yeah, but to see that, my problem is if he intended to do himself in and he was gonna get high ahead of time, and it is very common knowledge that people can easily o d on heroin, then why bring the gun in? Why not just go? You know what, I'm just gonna keep pushing the plunger down until I don't wake up again and I can I still move my hand, and then I'm gonna keep going. I mean, that's certain,

and it's it's not It's also not dramatic. I mean, do you you know he probably asked that to hself that I want to be do I want to be known as his tormentitor artist who killed himself, or as a junkie who's screwed up and ode what do I want to be known as? Yeah, And actually it's interesting. I don't think that there's any better. I don't think one is any better than the other. But that's my personal pain. Well, there's a there's a quote from one of his friends that says, you know, it was really

violent death, Like it's that, which is true. I mean, you shoot yourself in the face with a shotgun. But it was interesting because then this quote that you know, his friend was saying, um, that wasn't hurt. It's weird. There was no violence in Curt and it's weird that he chose to go out that way, which I think is a fair thing to say. But I also, I mean, you pass out before you die from heroin, I mean,

you just do right. And so if you're trying to kill yourself like by Odee, there's it's not certain that you're going to die. You might just wake up and be living in hell, right, as opposed to if you stick a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger, you're probably gonna die, especially if you've taken a bunch of heroin. I mean, it's just it's certainty, you know,

it's that backup plan. But I hear it again. I again, if if I don't want to belabor this, it's just that I think if the guy wanted to get hot before he did it, then why not just get so high that you go out and you don't have to lift a finger. He could have been close, Frankly, I mean, you know, we don't know what his tolerance was, so he could have been really close to being that high. I don't know, but I do think that it's pretty

definitive that he was not murdered. Well, I think I think either way, I can see the arguments of a side. That's that's my problem with this case. That's why I didn't throw up the red flag of why are we doing this? Is because I can see the arguments whether I behind him or not. And I thought it was.

But the only person who had a motive to murder him was Courtney Love as far as I know, Yeah, yeah, there you go, Courtney and Courtney again, Courtney would not have sent him to rehab if she wanted him dead. She I mean, she would have what she would have done if she would have waited until he was off

somewhere in the greenhouse getting you know, shooting up. She would have waited until he was kind of like just laid back and just sat like oh, and then she just would have stepped into the room with the hypodermic and shot a whole bunch more haroin into his arm and killed him that way. There's no need to use a shotgun. She would have let him die in Rome. Yeah, she would have let him dye in Rome for that matter. I mean, it's just it simply makes no sense that

Courtney was a murderer. Absolutely not. I've said it before and I'll say it again that that implies rational thinking. Known enough people who were so irrational that I just they're hot and cold. I think for me, the biggest thing about this case is that it was such a

huge failure on the part of the Seattle police. They found the body, declared the instantly it was Suicially it was a suicide, and they claimed that because the beat cop that responded to the call said it kind of looked like a suicide, and not like from the mouth of the guy who was the police chief at the time. He said, well, if the if the guy who responds says, it looks like a suicide, and the paramedics, yeah, okay,

then it's a suicide. They didn't get a talk screen back, they didn't get fingerprints back, they didn't process, They did nothing, And that I think is probably why this is even a case right now. They didn't know who he was. He didn't know who he I don't know. I think that when they made their decision of what it was, they didn't know who he was. To realize that they had to do their due diligence before they got their

ass is handed to. I guess the thing that annoys me about that statement is that, like, it shouldn't matter who he was. That was they found heroin paraphernalia like two feet away from him, he obviously would have had track marks. He yes, okay, so there was a shotgun, you know, on him, and it looked like a suicide. But you at least wait for a talk screen if you found drugs in the room, you gotta wait for a talk screen before you You just can't declare at

the scene. And I think for me that's the biggest frustration with this case. Whether know, I don't think Courtney Love is a particularly good human being, whether I think you know anything, the fact that the Seattle Police did such a crap job on this is just frustrating as hell.

I think the other reason that this has gone on so long is that there's been so many There's been so many things that were thrown into the mix that really they're weird, and it's because it's I'm famous slash Hollywood slash big rocker guy weird, Like the whole he had stomach issues thing that which we're no. Well, you know what's funny is that I remember I remember when the news came out on MTV news because I was at some trip high school trip with a bunch of

friends and it came out, and I remember one body turning, going, you know that he's totally had stomach issues for years and like he could barely eat and move, and I'm sure that that's totally what did it? Like, those are the kind of things that you hear and that's stuck with me for decades. You know what, Stomach pains are really good sign of withdraw That's a good point, But I think we're going on too long. I think I think we've already solved the mystery he wasn't murdered, he

committed suicide. Yeah, I mean I think that's probably true too. Yeah, it was suicide. I think there's a lot of stuff going on with the case. But the Seattle, the Seattle see, the Seattle p D did not do their due diligence. They really should have, you know, been a little more. I'm sure they looked into it a bit, and then

they went back to that police report. They know he was locked in the bedroom and suicidal, and then Courtney says, oh, yeah, he tried to give it suicide in Italy, you know, and so that was probably for them all they needed. I don't think they even did that much, to be honest. It might not be, but you know, that's that's just the way it is, you know, with you know those guys have you know, I mean we all cut corners, right, Yeah,

it happens except with the podcast. Yeah, but everybody cats corners. So they were just like you. And then there's always this group think and you just sort of get into that whole, like, you know, everybody thinks it's suicide. I guess it's suicide. So yeah, but in this case, I think it was. Yeah, I agree, everything seems to point that way. Yeah, it's just you know, frustrating. Yeah yeah, so yeah, anyway, I've got more theories, but I need

to go to the bathroom. So should we wrap this up? Yeah? Yeah, let's wrap this up because probably have to go to the bathroom too. Probably they're like circling the block waiting to go to work. You can if you want to see some of the research we did. We'll post some of those links, not all of them. We might post a couple extra links this week. Steve Um maybe soaked in bleach and not um, but you can find that on our website, which is Thinking Side with podcast dot com.

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