Thinking Sideways: The crew of the Carroll A. Deering

as always by Devin and Steve. Yeah, and this week we're gonna talk about another cool maritime mystery because you guys, you guys know how fond I have a maritime mysteries Joe's favorite nautical Yeah. Uh so this is a really kind of strange one. Just brief overview. It's about the Carol A Deering And if you, if you do do any webs searches on this, you'll find several really good pictures of the deering. It was this beautiful five masted

schooner that was built in nineteen nineteen. It's a schooner schooner. Yeah, and uh it was a freighter two big one long, forty six ft a beam um. But the deering was in service for less than two years when one morning it was found run aground on Diamond Shoals off the coast of North Carolina. The strange thing about it is that when the coast Guard finally got managed aboard the boat four days later, because there was offseas um, the crew was gone, completely gone. Well, there was one member

there was. There was there was a cat, Chip's cat, Mr. Snuggles. That's a good name for him though, So we'll go with that one then. Uh and all, by the way, I just wanted to say, we'll give a little shout out to Justin who suggested this story. Anyway, So Diamond Shoals is has the reputation of not being very ship friendly. They called that area the Graveyard of the Atlantic. It really is just one giant bar north to south on that edge of North Carolina, and you can just see

how it just must chew things up constantly. Oh yeah, a lot of a lot of ships have been chewed up and spat out. Let's talk a little bit about the ship. As I said, it's built in nineteen nineteen by the G. G. Deering Company of Bath, Maine. So apparently these guys not only did ship building but they also ran the ships as a business. You know that

the Deering was a cargo freighter. They were designed build, got it and yeah yeah uh And apparently that was the last ship that was built by the Deering Company because I said feet long, forty six ft a beam um and had three decks um except of course in the cargo hold area the antenna. The interior apparently was here really nice, finished with oak, mahogany, empress wood, ashwood. Uh, deckpline was hard pine. They pulled out all the stops on this thing, which is weird for a cargo ship. Well,

it kind of is. Yeah, and uh the masts were made from trees chopped down right here in Oregon. Yeah, so that's cool. That was our contribution to this this mystery Oregon and then shipped all the way over to Maine. Okay, maybe they don't have tall trees over there, um, not anymore,

they don't. Yeah. The heads that bathrooms to non nautical types were fully plumbed and had hot and cold running water, which is pretty like serious because on a lot of old sailing ships basically the head was a plank with a hole cut in it up at the half of the battle ship yeah. Yeah, either have it or you want to set on that and you did your business, you know, and then it's just just dropped into the sea.

And I hope there's no like big splashes or anything. Yeah, yeah, rough original Yeah, yeah, actually that could be kind of nice maybe. Yeah. What else they had? The low deck spaces were lit by electricity and heated by team. So this was a pretty nice ship. It sounds nicer than the cruise ship I was on the care areas. Yeah, this is nicer than that. Yeah, you had hot and cold, bunning water. We did, but you know, corrugated metal interiors

and it wasn't a whole of the crown. So the create areas and these ships, I assume there are not nearly as nice as the guest areas. Accurate. Yeah, that makes sense, it does. I'm not surprised. Yeah, it's about maximizing space, not luxury. Why the way back to the Daring the Carol a deering um by the way, it was named after during son right, Yeah it was so I was just thinking about how, like, I bet you

would run out of people to name ships after. Don't you think have you ever seen the names of ships? Like it is obvious that they ran out of names a long time ago. Yeah, So if I ever get like a boat or anything like that, I'm going to name it the Enterprise Original. Yeah, the original n CC one. Yeah. Well, anyway back to the next to the Caroline, the name of mine would be in a bottle, in a bottle, ship in a bottle, or maybe happens ship happens. Yeah, okay, anyway,

such a nice ship. I really would not personally leave it to climb into a lifeboat, but that appears to be probably what happened here, because, as I said, the lifeboats were gone when they found the ship, and the crew was gone to except for the cat. Except for the cat. Yeah, Mr Snuggles. Yes, So let's go back to the beginning. In late August nine, the Caroldering set sail from Norfolk, Virginia, and I had for Real Degennio with the cargo of coal. The captain was William M. Merritt,

and his son S. E. Merritt was first mate. With about two minutes into the voyage, Captain Merritt suddenly became

very ill, and not two minutes. It was a little more than two minutes into the voyage, but it was pretty quick it was pretty quick, like days or within a few days, I guess like that, because like far from Norfolk when they when they put in the shore, and and what was weird is they left Norfolk and they sailed south and that apparently turned up and went up to the Delaware coast and put in a town

in Delaware. I don't know if that's called is pronounced Lose or Lewis, Delaware, but uh, and and so Captain Merritt left the ship along with his son, and they had to get a replacement. So the Deering Company had hired a guy named Willis Wormel. Yeah, it was warm, so he was in the captain apparently, I'm not sure I've heard it. Wormel hired a sailor named Charles McClellan to be his first mate. Although I heard in one another place that the Deering Company hired the guy. I

don't know. Yeah, I think it might have been the company that actually hired. I would imagine that if it's not his boat, he doesn't get a say it did make the final decision. Yeah, so I'm thinking probably the Deering Company. Most places say that he did. But you know, but anyway, it doesn't really matter that much. There were nine other members of the crew, mostly Scandinavians and a lot of places it says they were all Scandinadians and

that's not true. Yeah, but they were. They were like seven and then there was an American and a guy from the the French West Indian thank you, Yeah, and that was and then the first mate in the captain yeah, and were Americans also, and then and the rest were Dane except for one who was a fin Yeah. The daring got under way again on September six d right in Rio in late November. So it's like, if you really want your cargo to be there in a hurry,

I probably don't want to set up by sale. Well, I was just thinking how funny it is that, I mean, you know, these days like ships will you know, get out of New York and seven days later they're back in New York and they've gone all the way down to Rio de Janeiro and further right in seven days. It's it's crazy to think about how far we've come nautically.

And what's funny to me, I mean, I know Joe alluded to this a little bit earlier, is the fact that it's it's a sale driven ship in one when we're starting to be able to power everything with cole and propeller and and you know, fossil fuel burning ships go much faster. Well, yeah they do. Yeah. Yeah, that's why eventually these sales of silf raiders kind of fell

out of favor. Yeah. I wonder if that's maybe part of why they made it so nice inside, is that they thought, well, you know, if this whole cargo ship thing goes under, we can do you know, quick little refab and make it a cruise ship or make it

a luxury sailboat or something passengers on board. Yeah, and I wonder if that was the original idea, and then just kidding, no, it's you know, the original intention is, let's put this into a passenger situation, except that suddenly the money starts going short, Like okay, we we gotta punt. What do we do. Let's not finish the whole center

of the ship. Let's just make it a hold. Even they think, well, you know, if we make this so that it's nice enough to get paying passengers, we can kind of kill two birds with one stone, where we transport cargo and people take a really long cruise at the same time. I don't know that. It's just kind of weird to me that they would do that, and that is that is true though, but you know, I mean, and even today you can you can hit the right on a freighter then it's a lot cheaper than they

don't see a cruise ship. You can still and they have quarters for it. So maybe that was the intent, was to have paying passengers as well. Anyway, they had none on this one. Lucky for those passengers. Yeah, yeah, so it took him a month Sixtember six, It took

them over two months to get to Rio. Uh. So the men all went on Liberty and then Captain Warmel ran into an old friend and Captain Goodwin had no first name alas, and they had a little chat and warm L told Goodwin he didn't really care for his crew all that much and said he also tard us. He thought his first mate McClellan was a worthless troublemaker, and Goodwood remembered this later. Well. He also said the only one he trusted or thought was a decent sailor

was the engineer. Yeah, yeah, who was he? The other American that was on the ship. Yeah yeah, And so yeah, he liked him okay, yeah, yeah, the captain didn't sound like that awesome of a guy to himself at times, some of the thing things he said, and just like maybe he was the happiest old man because he was an old man and it was like sixty six. I would I'm not I'm not sure this old man, but that's getting up there, especially for nine in nineteen nineteen.

He is an old man by by modern accounts. And there's a dude who's close to over in this very room. I don't want to harm you. I'm not that close, but no, I mean for the day and age, for sure he was. He was definitely up there, particularly to be working on a show, working, and he may not have wanted to be working, he may have had to

be working probably. Yeah. Yeah, I think in those days the life expectancy was was I mean, what is it today, like seventy two or seventy five or something like that for higher than that, Yeah, but back in the day it was. Back in those days, it was far far lower than sixty six fifties, I think, yeah, okay, where were we? Uh? The Deering set sail for her return trip on December two, and in early January they put

into Barbados for supplies and a little shore leave. So whenever anybody says they put into Barbados for supplies, I think like air quotes supplies my hangover. Yeah, well, you can't be love it, but actually, yeah, surely, I mean yeah, I mean, after all, these guys have been on the been not stuck in the ship for a long time, you know. I mean, they need to get a little

little rest and recreation, right. I've heard two versions of what happened in Barbados, and one version McClelland got arrested for public drunkenness and was shown in jail, and then Wormele bailed him out of jail um. But then for some unknown reason, they had an argument and McClelland threatened war Mel's life. That's one version. Another version, and this is the one of the Wikipedia page, McClelland got drunk and was complaining to the captain of another American ship

about Warmel. And then later that same captain, along with his first mate and yet another ship's captain heard overheard McClelland saying that he was going to quote get unquote Wormel before they got back to Norfolk being shipped captains. Of course, they didn't really take kindly to that kind of talk. That's not a good thing to have rolling around. No,

not really, And so apparently they got him arrested. And then on January nine, Wormele bailed McClellan out of jail and then he rejoined the crew of the Jeering and they set sail for home. In retrospect, Wormele probably should have let just let him stay in rotten jail and just gone without a first mate. I mean, he's a first made anyway, right, No one exactly. Yeah, I don't have on it. I'm doing just fine. Wow. Nice. Twenty days later, on January nine, the Carol A Deering sailed

past the Diamond Shoals lightship and they hailed it. The lightship keeper was a man named Captain Thomas Jacobson, and he reported that a thin, red haired guy with a foreign accent and yelled across to him that they had lost their anchors and chains while writing a storm south at Cape fear Off what they call frying pan Shoal. I'm sorry, uh for those, not me because I know, but other people who might not know. What's a light ship? Lightship?

Oh yeah, okay, lightship? That's a good point. Well, it's like it's like a mobile lighthouse. They actually at Diamond Shoals, they actually at one point attempted to build a lighthouse

and they had problems with it. They built an enormous case on on shore and then they hauled it out there and tried to set it on the on the seafloor, and they were gonna build their lighthouse on top of this, and well it immediately started settling and settling in a lot angle and there was just basically nothing they could do about it. So after expending you know, a bunch of money trying to do this and not succeeding, they just decided, screw it, we'll just have a lightship instead.

It's just a ship. A ship. It's a ship that's got that's got a beacon on it, just like a lighthouse. And lightships were probably the one of the most boring, horrible things to work on because a normal ship, you've got stuff to do, you're moving about. On a lightship, you drop an anchor if you can. Otherwise you spend all your time trying to stay in one location and oh,

by the way, keep the light going. Because they were doing this before electricity, so it was like a lantern and some guy had to go up there every hour because it ran out of fuel, and like it was that had to be a terrible job to be the light ship keeper. Yeah, I don't think it was considered to be a promotion. So it's just a ship that's got a lighthouse on it, basically a mobile, separate mass mobile mobile lighthouse. All right, just a clarify. Sorry, Well

that's good. Now, that's good. Thing you said something and hadn't thought about that. I know what a lightship is, so I'm just like I thought everybody knew, but we all share a brain. Yeah. Anyway, the guy that haired red haired guy on the deering who was on the quarter deck of the deering that tells him about losing the anchors in the chains and asked him to use his radio to get a message to the deering company

about it, because apparently had that. I guess the idea would be the then the deering company could make a arrangement that Norfolk for them to be greeted by tugs or something like that, because they couldn't just sail in and drop anchor. All I could do is sail in and sort of like sit there drifting around until they pumped into something. So sorry that the Carol Deering didn't have a radio on it. Well, that's the thing. I

don't know. I mean maybe the radio. Yeah, you would think that they would have had a radio, but apparently not, or maybe it was out, maybe it was not functioning. I don't know. Well, then that's the same problem with the lightship, is that he couldn't call it in because his radio was on the fritz. So is the alien interference? This is Bermuda Triangle you know? Yeah, yeah, the far north tip of the Bermuda Triangle. Jacobson, who's he's He's

the guy that captained the lightship. I thought it was a little odd that a crew member rather than the captain in the first mate was was he telling him this? Of course, he testified later there was an investigation in this whole thing, big, yeah, huge investigation. Uh. Jacobson also thought it was odd that the entire crew seem to be just hanging out on the quarter deck of the ship. But anyway, other than that, you know, what else can we make of it? Yeah? What are you gonna do?

He made a note in his log about it. The deering continued sailing northward. And by the way, the thin red hair guy, it's the description of Johan Frederickson, who was the only member of the crew that had red hair. Um. He was a ship's posen, which is short for boatswain and which is kind of somebody's second in command. He's below first mate but above the regular crew members kind of thing. Yeah, so that that probably was Johan Frederickson. As to why it was him and not the captain, well,

who knows. Well, I was just gonna ask what it be reasonable for if like there was other I mean, you know, you're in disaster, right, you don't have anchor. You're trying to maneuver your ship into like a certain area. It's kind of a dangerous area anyway. Also, you know, like maybe you say, right, it's me and my first mate, we're going to be here. You go stand down there and yell if you see someone and tell what's going on. Yeah, it might have been that. Maybe they maybe they told

him to do it because he had the loudest voice. Yeah, he would stand out the most with the red hair. Yeah, I don't know. But the weird part about that though, is that they were obviously able to sail up next too close to the lightship, so they obviously were not of control in some disaster scenario. It's not as if the ship was sinking out from underneath them and go scream for help, because all he yelled was we don't have an anchor. That's true, but I mean it is dangerous, right,

I mean that's it's a light ship, right, so it's marketing. Hey, maybe don't come here, right, And you want whoever is the absolute best at steering that ship to do the steering to get it close enough to yell, but far enough away to not run into it or run aground. Yeah. That's the thing, is that to maintain control of the ship, you have to you have to keep it under sail, right. Yeah. And so that person was likely not the captain because

the captain apparently had some vision. Apparently he was had bad eyesight. Yeah, okay, Well then you don't want the captain yelling because he's not going to be able to see. Yeah. Yeah, maybe the captain had a creaky old voice, you know, maybe they had to have somebody else out there yelling, you know. So then you've got your first mate doing all of the the actual steering. You've got your boat swaying out there, yelling, you've got the captain trying to

keep everything under sail or you know whichever. Maybe the captains, like you said, taking taking an apron. Maybe he's dead, don't don't. Uh So two days after, on January thirty one, Carol During was spotted hard aground on a sandbar on Diamond Shoals near Cape Hatteras, North Carolina. You can find that if you get on the Google. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. Yeah, that's kind of cool. Yeah, I'd like to go see it. Maybe one of these days will do a field trip. Yes,

but yeah, now we're gonna fly. All the sales were set, meaning the sales were still up, and so that could not have been easy on the boat. The weather was kind of rough, and so that's gotta be really hard on your boat if it's harder ground and and the wind is just it goes in full board and then the wind keeps shoving it into its n There was one ship I can't remember the name of it now. It's an interesting story. It ran aground just like this, and uh, it was on this big sandbar, a big,

huge white sandbar, and for whatever reason. Tides and and and waves and wind and everything. They actually stripped all the hardware off of it and everything and salvage whatever they could, and they just left it there. And I don't remember how long it took. It took like about a year, but it actually slowly moved through the sand and wound up in this bay again. I gotta, I gotta try to find that story again. It was yeah, uh, anyway, not so not so easy for the old deering now.

They never did manage to get it dislodge. More about that in a second. All the sales were still set. As I said, the lifeboats were gone, and red lights have been run up to the tops of the masts, which apparently is a signal that this ship was either derelict or out of control. And red lights, I don't know if they were electric. They did have electricity on the bad electric lanterns, they would have run out of fuel and no time at all, right, so they must

have been electric. Um, but then the ship would have also still had electricity. Yeah right, Well, you know, and the ship's auxiliary was probably not running. I assume they had a battery, and so maybe it just ran off battery for a while until the battery ran flom. You set emergency stuff to go off the battery usually so. Yeah, So the coast Guard arrived at the scene because of heavy seas that couldn't go aboard. Then they couldn't actually

board until February fourth, so five days after its found. Yeah, the cat must have been hungry. Sorry. One more point of clarification. The sales are set means they are up. They are they're up, they are in place, They're ready to push the boat around catching wind. Okay, listen, lots of body terms here. Yeah, talk boy talk. That reminds me of body boat faced happen. I love that name. Okay, anyway, back to ours thing here. The dairy was board at

ten thirty am on February fourth. The ship was they reported in actually pretty good shape, but the crew, of course was gone. H and of course except for Mr Snuggles the cat. Yeah, we have probably well hopefully, there were a lot of mice on the daering and he was able to like, you know, entertain himself and feed

himself and you know, eating mice. A. The crew had taken apparently all their personal effects with them, and uh, they also took the ship's navigation gear, ship's clock, ship's log, and there was but there was no evidence of any any sort of emergency. There was no evidence of violence or blood or anything. There were a few odd pieces

of evidence that were found there though. Uh. In the captain's cabin they found three different sets of boots that were in different sizes, so apparently belonged to three different guys. So apparently some guys were hanging out in the captain's cabin. The captain's cabin also had a spare bunk in which

had been slipt in, So this makes you wonders. It's field a lot of speculation, like the captain died, or was he killed, or was he somehow incapacitated, or was there a mutiny, was he being held or was he just you know, thrown overboard. But because the captain isn't typically of a ship known to just say, hey, go ahead and sleep in my bunk, not typically at all. No,

it's it's my station, you see the hell out of it. Yeah, But if the captain is is you know, some one way or another out of the picture, then it would be tempting to go shack up at his cabin because it's obviously going to be the nicest place in the in the ship. But why wouldn't you just sleep in his bed? Why would he sleep in the auxiliary? Then I think somebody was sleeping in the captain's bunk and somebody else was sleeping in the other bunk. That's what

I'm guessing. Another bit of evidence that something had happened to the captain is that the notes on the ship's position on the navigational chart had changed handwriting after January, So if something happened to the captain, it must have been about a week before, but it was a different handwriting. He was, yeah, something happening. Maybe he got maybe he died, they'd pay buried him at sea, or something more sinister

than that. You don't know. But as for the Carol a deering Alas, and this truly as sad actually because she wasn't neat, she was a need old chip. But they tried to tow her out to see again, and they couldn't get her unstuck from the sandbar, and so they were They dine reminded her in March, early March, and there were still pieces over as I like, I don't know the nineteen there might still be pieces that

were still out there. I was gonna say, I saw pictures from several years later of people in the sand bar next to the yeah, the wreckage, Yeah, at low tide. I suppose you could go out there and you know, and you know, check out the wreckage, maybe get yourself a souvenir or some building materials. I know that there was a shipwreck at the base of the Econi Mountain

the nineteen thirteen. Yeah, yeah, excuse me, Yeah, And I know that a lot of stuff got salvages, like the ship's mass wound up in people's homes that they were like a column supporting porches and all kinds of cool stuff like that. All the locals go down and they get out, there's good. But there's good building with you was down there. Plus it's got a great story, right. Yeah. Normally a shipwreck off Cape Hatteras would not be a huge deal because, after all has already said that area

is called the graveyard of the Atlantic. In fact, there's a there's a museum on Hatteras is called the Graveyard of the Atlantic Museum. So they fully acknowledged their graveyard in this. I see where you got your your phrasing. Okay, yeah, but because the crew disappeared, but so mysteriously, which is face is a little hanky, you think. There was a

big investigation into the shipwreck. And another thing the sparked interest was that nine different other ships vanished without a trace in the same area within about a two week period, like late January, early paperwork. The ships without a trace. Yeah, so daring that the Daring did not vanish without a craze a trace, just her crew. The other ships vanished without a trace, not even not even a distress call. Yep, that's it. Well, as we know, radios were apparently going wonky. Apparently.

I don't think radios were a hundred percent reliable back in those days. Um they were cheaply made. Yeah. The FBI, the U. S. Navy, the State Department, the Commerce Department, and the Treasury Department all launched investigations. Um, and I'm kind of assuming the Coast Guard did to the usual given that's kind of a given that they would do that. So that's a lot of a lot of government interest, And there were a lot of theories at the time because this was actually kind of a big deal back

in back in Yeah, people got excited about this. One of the one of the most popular theories it was out there at the time was that it was a group of pirates. Yeah, yeah, okay, sorry, I should have delineated that. Okay, theories crazy fun sery time, seri time. Okay, like five different genres. Actually, we do need to come up with some sort of sound effect, don't you think? No, No, okay, fine, I'll just make my own sound effects. Now that we're

in the theory machine, let's go. Okay, first in particular order. Uh, piracy, it was thought that a group of pirates was responsible for all this. That kind of makes sense. And also the crew of the Deering. Uh, there's no real evidence, and then none has ever come up with nobody was ever caught pirating a ship. But piracy is still a common thing even today. It happens a lot, not as common as it was. No, no, but it's still still has happened. It's yeah, And there really wasn't that much

of value aboard the Deering. I mean, the most valuable thing really was the ship itself, which I noticed the pirates, if they managed to take the ship, they just allowed it to run around. But maybe they were really incompetent pirates and they abandoned. I mean, I guess there's an arguments we made that, like the crew would be pretty valuable. Yeah, you don't want the slave market. Oh that's a good point. Yeah, yea, so maybe they take the crew within. Let's let's let's

think about this. So the crew thinking, you know, thinking well I don't want to be a slave, they run, They runner the ground to get away. Yeah, yeah, to get one, and then say they run no, I don't know, it's get yeah, take it together to foil the terrible pirates will destroy the thing you're after. That's that's what I was doing in Star Trek there away blowing up the Enterprise. Yeah, they're crashing into this planet, so you

can't take it exactly. So if they can do it in Star Trek, they can do it on the Deering. But you know, the piracy say, with all these ships disappearing, you know, and all this other hicky stuff going on, I can understand why people might think that conclude pirates.

But the reason I don't really buy the piracy theory is that not a single one of these ships got up a radio message or a distress call, and not a single one day now, if you're being boarded by pirates, have be being pursued by pirates, you know they're they're chasing your boat. That is a very good point. Pirates don't just materialize next to your boat like the Scooby

Doo sho do on The Enterprise. But yeah, I mean, I think the only thing I can think of is like maybe they had a really early version of like jammer for radio signals, or they just rely on the fact that everybody's radio was crappy. And we're saying we have a documented instance of two radios not working right with the deering and then the light ship, neither of their radios were working. If there was just a weird spot in that area, if pirates were aware of that area,

they would probably hang out. I don't think there was any problem with radio radio transmissions in the area, You don't think so, I don't think so. Never mind that theory, I think. And also the other thing about piracy is that it turns out there was there was a series of massive hurricanes in the Atlantic that a lot of these ships were sailing into, So maybe it shouldn't be

so surprising they disappeared anyway. The next theory This is a popular one also, which is a variation on the piracy theory, which is bootleggers like yeah, ok ak a rum runners. So this theories says that some liquor smugglers working out of the Bahamas perhaps stole the ship to use it for rum running. Don't forget for everybody listening, this is prohibition era. This is this first probition starts to nineteen, so we're into the first year. Everybody's already

figured out how to illegally move booth. Be honest, people figured out how to illegally move booze before prohibition ever took effect. But I'm saying on a mass scale. So that's what the run runners are. They had They always typically have a stationary ship and have the little ships running back and forth or one good fast ship in general. Here's a fun fact that you guys may or may not know. My grandpa when he was like ten, drink

Room was a run runner. My my my great uncle on my dad's side, lived in lived in Utah, and he was he was a bootlegger. Yeah that he and his brother they were like ten and twelve. They would steal the car and take it, you know, just run stuff. For this guy, like the bootlegger would just like he'd be like, all right, these liveries need to happen here, and they'd be like, okay, cool. And then you know there were ten and twelve, so if they got caught,

people would be like, you're just scamps. You don't know what you're doing. Yeah. That was a great thing about prohibition is that there was money to be made. The daring actually with that big cargo hold, could have carried

a lot of liquor, a huge amount of liquor. Yeah. Yeah, And I actually I like this a little better than the piracy theory because, as I noted above, the item of greatest value here was the ship itself in this case, to the to they're not the pirates, to the run runners, it would be a very valuable thing indeed, because it could hauls such a fantastic amounts of booze and for a single run, and then since they stole it, it

could just be discarded. There is a question, of course, of how to discreetly offload a million bucks worth of booze from a big five masted schooner. I'm not sure exactly how you do that. Well, they had several days to do it into other boats. Well, I suppose that's what you do, is you is you just anchor off shore somewhere hops. They didn't have any anchors, but you know, you hang out off shore. Other smaller boats come and

get a load from you and head back in. Um. And that could be why they were when they were by the lightship. Everybody was just kind of milling about, waiting for the next little ship to come along to offload a bunch of booze to I mean, they may have been in the service of the rum Runners before they ever went by the lightship. I think about it.

There was the tent when the handwriting changed. That might have been when they changed teams and started import and booze around, you know, when made a quick stop somewhere, picked up a bunch. I don't know, but well, yeah, I like the idea that would be nice, the way to supplement your income. Yeah, I mean it could even

be that, Um, what, what's the first mate's name, McClellan. Yeah, I mean it's possible that even like the thing they got in the fight with was, you know, mccleollan was like, listen, let's just make this one little stop, you know, I know, some guys like run some stuff and the captain was like, no, right, and he took it all on because the crew was like, yeah, will make some extra money. Yeah yeah. Warm was a

real straight a yeah. And then you know, Wormel and McClellan just like ended up, you know, kind of butting heads the entire time. And finally, you know, mccollin was like, all right, well he's not going to go along with it, so we got to get rid of him. Yeah. And so yeah, and at least to another theory, which of course is mutiny. We'll get to that soon. But sorry, no, that's okay, that's true. That The only problem I have with it is I don't know why the rum Rudders

would have abandoned the ship. I mean, maybe they just decided they didn't want to push their luck. You know, it's kind of a high profile boat. It kind of is. It's distinctive, it really is. It's not just gonna blend in. You can't just change the name and nobody knows that it was the Deering. Yeah, this is true, although if it was Bootleggers, it would explain why the boatswain as like perhaps the only live member of any kind of you know, Captain first mate, yeah, thank you, Comman Chain

would be yelling, we lost our anchors. Somebody come meet us in this court that we have no real reason to be in, you know. So he's not he's not explicitly saying like we have been taken hostage, this is where we're going, but he's communicating something doing actually didn't have the anchors, that the anchors were gone. Yeah, so there was I think I think he was probably while he was yelling, he was probably blinking out of the stress signal with his eyelids. Yeah, yeah, I think that's

what it was. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I always do. Yeah, we know, Yeah, I mean, we don't know. I was like I was like for the video, I was planking out latitude and longitude and all that. Yeah. Yeah. I think from the Rummers point of view, if they were if they were done with the ship and they just wanted to be rid of it, maybe they could have

run it up on shore. But that creates a lot of it might have been smarter to like lash the wheel such a way that it's going to go east in the middle of the Atlantic, where it's gonna like run into probably a storm. Or hurricane be so punk and then then it's just gone. It's just like any other ship that just vanishes. And especially back in these days. Even today ships vanished without a trace, but not so often.

But back in the back in this time a lot. Yeah, but maybe the wind changed and you know, and I wind up getting blown back to the west instead, and you know, up onto a sand bank and diamond shoals. So for this theory, we're saying that the crew is dead. I think this series, the most of the crew was complicit. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think so. I guess yeah, I guess. My question with that then is that it was a

big deal pretty immediately, right. I mean, like the fact that this ship had just been completely abandoned and run aground was big deal within four days or so, right, And so you I mean, realistically, you can't get that far in lifeboats, right, And it's hard to get back on a ship after you've gotten on a lifeboat. Right. So if you even you have a life boat and you're going to a second ship, like that's a that's a challenge. Well, if you got a ladder, you know

you can do it. You can, but then what do you do with the lifeboats you have to sink them somehow, so they didn't never show up. So I guess the question is, like, why didn't anybody if the crew was alive and complicit and like made it to shore kind of in that area, why didn't somebody say, oh, yeah, my friend Billy was on that ship, he's here. Well, they could very well have left with the rum Runners.

I mean, think about it, they don't have to. Just because the lifeboats are gone doesn't mean the crew actually got into them. It is entirely possible that they tied up to one of the rum Runners boats, offloaded all their gear, drop the lifeboats after popping a couple of holes in them, and they sail away back to Barba and then go somewhere. This is the question I've always had, is that a thing you could actually do is like basically just last two boats together and make transfers cleanly.

That actually thing you can you can do that you go, you want to put bumpers in between them, you know, like tires or I mean, it's the same thing as lashing a boat to a dock. Yeah, it can be done, yeah, I mean obviously it's it's it's not easy it's hard to do in rough seas. Yeah. And actually as for the lifeboats, they didn't even need to punch holes it. I mean maybe, I mean they're they're, you know, nice

little boats. They're probably worth some money take them. But as as far as as sailing a long ways, um after the mutiny on the Bounty, true story when Captain bly Was was forced to get into a lifeboat from the Bounty and a bunch of a bunch of his crew went with him into the lifeboat. In fact, they were packed to the gills. They sailed that thing for hundreds of miles. That was what was the year that

that was? It was nineteenth century. I don't remember exactly what the hundreds of ballpark issues anyway, but I mean they sailed. They sailed that thing for god knows. I mean, I don't know what two thousand miles you can It's it takes a lot of sailing skill. And I don't think in this case they were close to they were very close to the coast. That would be easily assuming that they had a sale on that on this on their boats, and they must have, because there was everybody

would have been extra sale on the deering. So they could have taken sale with them. But my point is is that if they got on board with rum Runners, they could have only Okay, we're saying that the first mate, we were pretty sure it was probably still alive, and the rest of the crew because I'm going to guess that the engineer was probably a goner as well, and so that in the captain as well. So that means everybody else they were all um Danish, right, most of

them are Danish. Yeah, so they could have very easily just caught, you know, got a job to sail home and all problems solved. They're like, we've we got out of there, and I added an extra constant to my name and nobody knows who I am and I went on about my business. That's true. Yeah, Yeah, I got a fake pair of glasses and grew a mustache and nobody knows who I am. Yeah, all right, okay, so you could the run runner thing is you know, that's

an attractive theory. I'm not sure there's not really any evidence, but yeah, let's get to our next theory that has

no evidence. There's a little bit of e Yeah. Another one was communist piracy by the Russians, then by by fellow travelers here in the US, and it was thought that Communist sympathizers hijacked all these ships, not just not just the Dering, but all the other nine ships and took them to Russia because some of the miss missing ships were carrying cargoes that had materials that the Russians couldn't buy because they were under embargo because of the

new Soviet regime in Russia. Wasn't was it one of the other ships? It was also in the same area that was it the Hewlett and that was a sulfur carrier? Yeah, it was. It was steam driven though, right I think so? Yeah, okay, because I remember that being in the list of ships that are called out for for this theory of you know, going to the Russians. Yeah, people often talk about the Thedeering and the heat was kind of in the same story that they appeared together a lot, because it disappeared

very close by each other about the same time. Except the Daring, of course, didn't disappear. The he Wit did disappear, although I'm not so sure, I mean the Hewitts and I haven't researched that very heavily, but it was it was a sulfur carrier. And my understanding is I've heard other sulfur carriers disappearing mysteriously also because it's so corrosive and so springing. Giant in the league. Yeah, how the

ship breaks into like the cyclops. Yeah, yeah, it just breaks in half and boom, there you go down to the bottom of the ocean. We'll find out one of these days when we drain the oceans. There's gotta be a lot of interesting stuff done there to look at. Do you either, I know, Devon does. I don't know if you do. Joe is read uh is it? X K what's the comic? X K D C there? He has a great comic where he drains the oceans and renames everything on the planet. And it's the funniest thing ever.

And it's got little shipwrecks all over on little math By. Now I want to be the first. I want to be out there with my little, my little like al terrain vehicle. I want to buzz around and find some old reps and salvage tons and tons of old gold coins and stuff that's actually on the inside of the dust jacket of that book you gave me for Christmas from him that's where I remember it from, which is that what he does is he does he jett around

and salvaging gold coins and stuff out of shipwreck. No. No, he's the author of that comic series. Okay, and it was all his writings. Anyway, we're off topic. I apologize.

That's all right. Back to the UH. And it believed that communist sympathizers hijacked all these ships that disappeared and took them to Russia because some of the missing ships were carrying cargoes that had materials in them that the Russians couldn't buy muka on the open market because there was an embargo by the West against the new Soviet regime. Can remember there was that there was that revolution in nineteen Yeah, and uh, Prince to Sannastasia disappeared. Yeah exactly.

There's another mystery. Yeah, good mystery, by the way. And there were rumors that vessels that had their names blacked out we're seeing at Russian ports and yeah, yeah, really exactly somebody taking a picture and then taking a sharpie, and I was thinking there was somebody in import with a big shirt we just walking along, Yeah, giant sharper Man size sharp Yeah, a yeah, it's a it's a guy with a small crane that's got a giant sharpie. Yeah.

But anyway, back to let's let's be serious now. The FBI rated the headquarters of the United Russian Workers Party in New York, and they were Communist sympathizers, of course, and they came across some papers which had orders to capture American ships. This is from the Bolsheviks to their to their communist sympathizer share in the US. They wanted them to capture American ships and take them to Russia.

The U. S. Navy was looking for the cruise with all these ships as late as July, because navy brass really truly believed that the ships were not sunk with have been taken to a secret Russian port. So yeah, listen, here's the here's the deal. You are telling a bunch of guys who have a ideological belief that they agree with you. You know, you're all on the same page, but they have no idea how to do this stuff. Most of them are just kind of a lay person.

You're you're telling them to create this giant, massive plan and do this and they have no funding and no idea what they're gonna do. This was all just hot air pretty much. There's not any any evidence that any of this plan and these plans were carried out into real life. I I and I assume also that the plan would they I mean, they could have recruited I'm sure they could have recruited communist sympathizers who were actually sailors and capable of operating a ship, but it'd be

very difficult to get them all onto the same ship. Well, yeah, you have to have to find a way to get them onto a crew or that. One of the things about piracy is piracy doesn't always happen on the high seas. Sometimes it happens right in port. And yeah, and so what you do is you go down and you just like hijacking car, yeah exactly, And you just go down to the docks and pick a nice ship and just board it, take it over, tie up the crew, and do whatever you do with the crew, and just sail

and just sail out of port. You know. I mean that that's actually what I would choose to do. If I were these these communes and I was wanting to hijack a ship, I would do it at port. I wouldn't try to do it at sea, that's kind of difficult. Yeah, that's why I was like, really, do you like lash a ship to another ship and it seems like really involved, Like why would you just get on it and go Yeah, that's yeah, that's that's really the best way to do it.

So as far as these guys, these ships disappearing at sea, well, I mean it's possible. I guess that they actually were boarded in port, that they actually set sail just like they were supposed to, unschedule and everything. Then unknown to everybody, they had these conspiracists on board actually controlling the ships, and they were sailed over to Russia. That's entirely possible.

At which point then they clunked out the captain and the first mate and the engineer and tied them up somewhere in the hold, and they tied him up, and then they made them do kobuki theater before throwing them off the edge of the ship. Maybe they did that, or maybe they took on to Russia, and Russia they were just sent off to the Gulag where they lived out the rest of their days. Except that in this instance, the ship actually we found the show they did actually

managed to get the deering there. Well, yeah, I mean if they were yeah, if it was part of our communist conspiracy, then obviously they screwed up badly and they ran it out, they ran it aground, So okay, are marks on their permanent record right there? Yeah, I'm kind of ruling this one out myself. I mean, it might have been responsible for some of the disappearances of the other ships maybe, but their evidence is rather sketchy on

this one. So let's go to another theory, which is hurricanes. Um, which is, well, hurricanes one is that what has that ever happened? Never? Never ever? No? Actually, um, as far as and this doesn't really explain the deering, but if you look at a lot of popular websites about the day, they always talk about hurricanes being a factor in at least the disappearances of the other line ships. And but besides which, as far as it goes the disappears of

the crew of the deering. You know, if they're if you're in the middle of the hurricane and you're in a large ship, are you gonna leave your large ship and climb into a lifeboat? You stay in your large ship? Hell? Yeah, So there's there's a giant problem with the entire all these because it was the nine ships the deering included the U. S. Government included the Okay, and so it was the other nine that were never found. A bunch of them the U. S. Government had decided were lost

in hurricanes. Here's the problem with that. I actually decided. I was like, oh, I wonder what. I wonder how big that hurricane wasn't So this afternoon it dawned on me to take a look. There's no freaking hurricanes in January of that year. Hurricane season is like April or May in that part of the Atlantic, like all of the there's five or six hurricanes on record, and the earliest one I think started it happened in mayor June. So there's something really weird in the reporting on this story.

Like I almost feel like somebody decided it had to be a hurricane and said the US government decided that's what the problem was, because that they're not recorded where where where the Atlantic just in general. I looked at ID, I looked up the I was looking up. Well what we got. I got me started was I wonder what the name of that hurricane was? Because hurricanes always have named except the naming conventions for hurricanes didn't start until

the military. The U. S Military did it. I started in nineteen fifty and then it came out in like fifty two or fifty three. We started using it everywhere in common popular culture. Prior to that, they were just numbered, and that's where I started finding. I was like, okay, what's the record of And there are six listed hurricanes for that year, And there was a number of different places, and they all had the same six. They all track their course, but they don't start at that time of year.

I mean, but that were these all six hurricanes? Were they once that made landfall? Yes? I mean that. What you're saying basically is that like people survived or observed these hurricanes and then they recorded them. Right, if we're saying there was a hurricane in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, it's not going to be quite probably in the like more southern part, tropical part in the middle where people are going from like Rio de Janeiro area

up to the Atlantic seabord of the United States. It's it's totally plausible to say none of the ships survived to record that it was never observed. But my problem with it is is that is not a hurricane season that time of year. January and February are not listed as hurricane season based on what I was looking at, And so that was my my, my, my, WTF moment, because there's something hinky about this theory and that well, no, I feel like maybe the hurricane thing is a weird

age old add on that has just entrenched itself. It's nobody believes it for the deering, but it's entrenched itself in Cuba. I've just looked up like someplace kind of middle their highest number of hurricanes are September and October, so that would mean that like January would be later, but also not like it's not as though it's six.

We could but we could say the same thing about you know, in in April May season, well that it's it's a two months early, and you're saying it's two or three months late, but it's it's not in there, and I'm just it's weird to me that it's not recorded when all these other ones that I came across were three though you think three, right, three that year six, six that year six, that year were recorded on that coast.

So it just seems really low to me. Yeah, I don't know the I mean, it's all for not it doesn't it doesn't matter because obviously the deering didn't go down in hurriyeh it is. It's just it was a weird thing that I came across. Yeah that there was some rough weather obviously, but yeah, no hurricane. And obviously you know who's going to abandon ship in a hurricane. So this is yeah, this, this one is just out there, so I thought threw it in. So we're going to

move on. Let's move on to a more favorite theory out there, which is mutiny for various reasons. I mean, and you can, again, as we did earlier, combined us with the rum runner theory I think too great effect. H Or it might have just been that rum fueled mutiny. I love it. Oh hell yeah, And that would be that would make me a little more fun, Captain Jack Sparrow.

That's how it always happens. Uh yeah. So of course, the war Miles conflict with McClellan and his attitude towards his crew were well known, which is one of the

reasons this theory is popular. And maybe the feelings were reciprocated, or maybe like you, as we're saying, and perhaps there was an opportunity for the crew to make some money doing a little room running and so yeah, and the incident of the lightship does tend to indicate that something happened to the Cappen because he wasn't seen in the quarter deck. And then the boson was the one who

was who was getting the message across the lightship. And then perhaps what they what they realized is that after they mutely realized, well, we might have a hard time explaining the captain being gone, and so maybe we should just sort of all sort of like just vanished, which is kind of easy to do in that day and age. Oh yeah, it's a lot easier to do than today. And yeah, they send out the description of everybody. Yeah, and the script is yeah, the scriptures were not that

close or easy. It's not hard, not that hard to start a new identity. And I'll say that a majority of the crew were from a foreign country. Anyway, they can go back to Denmark or Finland and yeah or anywhere. Yeah. Yeah, And so as I was saying earlier, and maybe they had meant for the ship to go out, to go out in the middle of the land and they can sink. But it didn't work out that way. Mr Snuggles got

ahold of it and turned the wheel. Yeah. Mr Snuggles was not so keen on going out in the Atlantic and dying and so, yeah, he did not believe in Chicken of the sea. Yeah, he went out and he chewed on that rope they'd last the wheel with, you know, and that cheated up, cheat it until it was gone and the wheel was free and the boat came about because it was a cardboard rope. Yeah, there's a cartoon rope.

The US government actually believed that the mutiny was the strongest theory that and they I really believe that the crew survived and they were looking for them for a long time. They sent descriptions to the crew to U S counsular offices all over the world and they were told to keep an eye out for him. And they continued this for like two years and it was like I think when they finally gave it up and there was the FBI did get a whip of the first mate,

Charles McClellan. On March twentieth ninety one, a man named Cyril McClellan applied for him god An A B. Seamen's license from the Board of Steamboat Inspectors in Portland, Oregon. Yeah. Back it was again, Yeah, you have to. I checked out checked it out. They found that they couldn't find Cyril McClellan. He apparently disappeared again and he had given a fake address on his application and that was the

last ever heard of Cyril McClellan. I can't believe is that whoever took his application didn't look at it because he gave what was it was the Semens union's house address or something like that was essentially the same as you had, the same place where he was submitting. Well, you know, it might have been the guy, but it just said like, hey, I might I might tinerant. I'm

a seman. I move around and the guy at the guy at the union of the place just said, oh, that's okay, we'll use our address and that well, you know, maybe that it was common Yeah, I mean, maybe that was what it was. Yeah, when we were on the cruise ship, the address that we had to give people and that was like on all the legal documents and stuff like that was the like cruise ship main office headquarters in Miami, yeah, so it may not uncommon may

have been common practice, but that's so. It's actually Cyril was a dead end. And as far as the other members of the crew, there were a few false sightings and that's about it. Otherwise they were never seen again. So we've got the we've we've done mutiny. That's it, right, that's pretty much it again. Uh you know, there's no indication of being I think is the strongest theory, or

something at least happened to the captain. And uh so, given the fact that there did seem to be a little bit of dissension among between the captain and the crew and everything like that, it's not unreasonable. It's not an unreasonable totally, and especially if you combine it with the rum runner thing or something else not even wrong, I mean smuggling something, you know, get rid of the captain because the captain is all this this this real straight, our kind of guy, and you guys want to like,

you know, make some money. Where where was it they stopped that the first mate got thrown in jail. That was Barbados. I think it was in Barbados. So it is is it not possible that some other illicit cargo could have been put onto the boat at that time, entirely possible without the knowledge of the captain. I'm just curious about that. Yeah, I don't know how much form I presume, you know, I don't know what cargo they

picked up in Rio. It really doesn't make sense to go all the way to Rio and not have a return cargo. Hopefully it was a manganese Yeah a good point. Yeah, yeah, that stuff gets slippery. Yea. Hopefully it wasn't like bananas. Probably like banana appeals. They had a cargo hold full of banana appeals, No wonter the boat went out. Yeah. Well yeah, I heard stories about like people opening up their shipments of bananas over here in the States and

there's just gigantic, scariest poisonous spiders in there and stuff. Yeah. Maybe that's what got the captain. Yeah, So are there any other theories out there? Well, this is this is my own personal theory um, which is maybe insurance fraud that wasn't unheard of nor is it today. No, not at all. Miss true to me is why the care ladeering was built to begin with. Because even though I'm

pro carrella deering, it was a nice ship. It was, you know, you've seen pictures of it, the ship, but it was built in nineteen nineteen, which is at that time, ship owners were deliberately running their their sailing ships onto the rocks to collect insurance money because they were so slow, they were so an economic compared to other means of

locomotion like coal and oil. And so there was a local incident I mentioned it earlier, the glenn Eslin, the one that ran at ran aground at the base of the Econi Mountain that wind up, you know, being parts of houses all over town and a thing like that. Yeah, that was a nineteen thirteen and there's been suspicion ever since that that was actually a deliberate, deliberate grounding. Yeah, it's it's it's it's an unsolved mystery. There's another explanation too.

I won't tell you that because who knows. We might cover this someday, but it was Yeah, I know, this is but it's a small little mystery really, but it's it's it's interesting though. And uh, but at that time, this is like six years before the Deering was built, and everybody's running their boats up on the rocks because they just can't make any money anymore. You can't get cargoes. Who's gonna pay you to take two months to get

a lot of cold rio? Well someone apparently? Yeah, Well yeah, I mean yeah, but obviously if you've got a faster boat, you're gonna be able to make more money. I think about the difference between you know, ups overnight and the ups slow boat. Right, Yeah, people pay a lot more money to get in there fast, but more money and you have a quicker turnaround. But there's also those guys who are looking for the way to save the most money.

I mean, there's some show I was listening to about the transportation of crude crude oil, and yeah, you could drop it into a truck and you could drive it all the way to the refinery, which would only take like three hours and cost you the driver. Or you could pump it through a pipeline which takes days on in. But it turns out the pipeline is dirt cheap, so screw it. I'll go with the cheap route because it's

gonna save me x amount per per barrel. So I mean there are people who would, no matter what, the fastest, most whizzy wig way to get things shipped is go for an antiquated route because they're going to save cash, which means you have a better bottle if you're not if you're not in a huge hurry. But but the thing about it is is that and Cole is always wanted, oh yeah, for sure. But the thing about it is is that you have to pay your crew, and you have to keep your crew alive and feed them and

everything like that. Do you want to pay well? Yeah, Like I think the lowest paid among the crew was getting like a hundred bucks a month, which for nineteen twenty that's actually pretty details actually pretty yeah. Yeah, I mean a hundred dollars is like um one two one dollars today, Okay, so round figure. That's not a bad living, especially I mean if you're a sailor and you don't

have to pay room aboard, yeah, you're being fed. All you gotta do is buy booze when you're in port the boat and you're loaded with cash to get Ruman prostitutes. Yeah yeah, sailor's life for me. Yeah. But the so

the carolydeering was again outmoded. It was it was it was kind of a white elephant from the very beginning and the Deering was for a freighter comparatively luxurious, and and as you said, of course, as you said, maybe they wanted to make it really nice because it might might be taking out passengers, or maybe there was there was an intention at some point of making it entirely

a passenger ship, like a cruise ship. But on the other hand, maybe the owners of the Deering made a maybe overstand their case a little bit describing the ship, and maybe they didn't really spend as much building that daring as they actually said they did. Maybe it was like, you know, just all a lot, you know, a not less, like they went back and the paperwork so that it was a nice ship instead of just made out of

the most basic woods available exactly. Yeah, And so I mean, I'm sure it was still a decent enough ship, but it might not. It might be that. Uh. They actually they actually realized sometime into the project that you know what, just random numbers, this just doesn't pencil, you know, And so they said they decided, hey, well, I guess we'll complete it as cheaply as we can, and then a couple of years from now we're running aground deliberately, because

as I said, everybody else was termed for that. That is weirdly long term to decide when you're going to destroy the ship. I mean, you you get insurance right away, so I mean, why wouldn't you scuttle it on its maiden or second voyage? Well, I mean it was it was built voyage, wasn't it. Yeah, yeah, I didn't They just go down to realtition and then they came back up. I don't think it was a maiden voyage because it

was it was built, but it was. It was actually operating for less than two years, right, But that's my point. It's like, if you were good, if you're you're like, oh god, this doesn't pencil. I need to get rid of this right away. Why wouldn't you sink it to the bottom of the ocean right away and collect the insurance money. Well? I can think of some reasons, Right, You don't take out a life insurance policy on someone and then immediately kill them. You wait a couple of years.

But if they're a manufacturer ships, they're doing this all the time. But this is the last ship that they made, right Yeah. So I think the other reason I can think of is you build the ship and you think, all right, we're gonna scuttle this thing. And then somebody gives you a contract and you go, crap, okay, we gotta we're gonna make this delivery, and then the next one we're going to scuttle it. And then somebody else says, oh, yeah, yeah, do you want to take the coal down for us?

And you go, yeah, okay, that makes money. I mean, it's making money. It's still making money. It's not as though they money, but you're not. You're not completely yet, but we're I mean, like, I don't know if they even were bleeding money. They certainly weren't making a fortune, but they weren't I don't know, they were getting business to keep it and so you know, but from their point of Viears a shipping company, not just a ship

building company, was a shipping company. There was more money to be made if they could free up a little capital and construct something that was saying field by coal and faster. And so how to they didn't doing that? How to free that up, Well you gotta like collect the insurance money on this boat. But they didn't. They didn't. They didn't do that anyway. I mean, but you know, it's it's also they were set up to build wooden

sailing ships. They could have actually just bought a ship, commissioned something built somewhere else, right, But I guess yeah, for me, it's just like if they were if if somebody was saying like, yeah, we'll give you money to do this thing that your ship is built to do, I don't know why you wouldn't say, yeah, okay, we'll

do that. And then suddenly, you know, that person says, you know what you guys are like, it's too slow, it's not working, and you go, all right, this is my chance, I'm gonna But here's here's my my hard part with this is that, I mean, yeah, we're we're talking about the sunk cost. You know, they put all this money and effort into it and they don't want it. So now they don't want to get rid of because it's it seems to maybe be going on and working.

But at the same time, Joe has mentioned, well, why don't you just commission somebody that makes an oil burning or coal burning ship. Well, I mean even in that time, it wasn't for something of that scale, and by that mean I mean the price tag. It wasn't uncommon to have to finance it. So, I mean, it's not it's not as if you had to keep this thing going so you could get the cash flow to build up enough money to then buy this other boat that you were going to commission, Well you were gonna buy it

on on credit anyway? Well sure, sure, but I mean it's uh, you know, I mean, yeah, they can buy the other boat on credit anyway. But essentially they have to get rid of this boat because it just isn't making them all that much money. Again, that's why problem is that if they knew in the beginning it was going to be a losing hand, I don't see why they wouldn't have just piled it right away. But that's

that's We've We've thought a number of different things. I mean, some people are you know, these guys ran a boatyard and they built and the building ships. It might have been that they decided to go ahead and start doing it because there were a lot of people who worked for them, and they felt bad about the whole idea of shutting the whole thing down and laying them off. You know. So what you're saying business owners have scruples. A lot of them do, actually, But yeah, I know,

but but I mean totally disagrees with you. Yeah, the so you know, that could have been one of the reasons. I don't know exactly what, but again, this this was the time when everybody was one of their ships aground for the insurance money, and so wouldn't totally surprise me. And it might be think about this, it might be the plan was, well, we're going to deliver a little colt down the Rio and the way back, we'll stopp in Barbados to the Bahamas or whatever and pick up

a ton of rum. And you know, everybody's on board with this, right, everybody's you know, we're gonna we're gonna bring this stuff back. Everyone's on board except the captain and his son. The first mate get the captain gets sick, and then you gotta like, you know, get these these two other guys. So now, so now your conspiracy to you know, like not to have a very lucrative rum run before you sink your ship. Now it's kind of

like throwing into a little bit of jeopardy. Yeah, I'm going I'm getting for a pretty far afield here, But you know, I kind of like the idea anyway, I like the whole rum running idea anyway, just because I like Booze? Yeah yeah, who doesn't like booze? Yeah yeah, not not really. Okay, you guys have any more thoughts theories? I I don't. But are we You have more notes here? What what is this about? Oh yeah, the Historical Society. Yeah yeah, yeah, great? Out of the Atlantic Museum I

called here. Actually I researched this mystery months and months ago, and I had notes about it, and which I can't find that they've gone on a walk about. This is what happens with the summer series. Yeah, we do other stuff and then we forget what we're doing. I think it just happens anyway. We will, like we all get those stories that we really like. We do a bunch of research and we're like, all you gotta find the right time for it, and then our notes. I'm glad that.

I'm glad to note. I'm not know that I'm not the only person that happens to if you Yeah, all right, yeah, back to the graveyard of the Atlantic Museum. I got, I got ahold of them. I called and talked to as a nice lady whose name I don't have anymore because I lost my notes that we had a little chat, and she actually was not able to tell me too much about She doesn't really know any more than the Internet knows about this whole story. But she knew one thing.

She was able to give me one useful bit of information, which was that Mr Snuggles was rescued and was brought back to Hatteras Village. And she said that the cat was polydactyl, which, if you don't know what that means, that music cat has more than the usual five toes six or seven per pro. Yeah. And when it turns out there are a lot of polydactical kiddies in the Adderas Village area that are apparently descended from that cat. So there is they have one a little bit of

living evidence from the whole careleadering mystery. So I wonder, um, do you think that the cats that are at Hemingway's estate are from there? I don't know, because Hemingway had the white cat that was Polly, and then when he left the place to the cats, suddenly every cat there was Polly or had the trait. I have a friend who has a poly cat. Yeah. Actually, yeah, you guys have a little tuxedos. Yeah, I know those guys. Yeah,

I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, And they're pretty cool, actually yeah, they're they're really bad with the Xbox though, that extra that extra extra? Did you get to the way from every time? Yeah? Yeah, but they are they are very Those cats are like hyper polydactive. They've got like seven toes yeah, big, like like catcher mit pause yeah yeah, I cut those nails. I know, really I get it. Yeah, okay, anyway, anyway, for the thoughts,

so I just do a little little housekeeping. It wasn't Aliens. Oh yeah, thank you, thank you for not saying it was the freaking Bermuda Triangle. Oh yeah, that's right. I'll do it right now. It was the Bermuda Triangle, and it wasn't the triangle and Aliens. I gotta say, I gotta say what it is. It was the Bermuda Triangle with a lead pipe in the study. Okay, I think I've seen that the sticker on the back of a car. Alright.

Well's so you probably are wondering about our website. I'm sure you've been listening for years now and you still don't know where it is. I'll tell you one more time. Pay attention this time, it's thinking sideways podcast dot com and out there. We have got you know, we've got our Our episodes are out there. You can you can download from there. Um and then what else. Uh. We're also on iTunes if you want to get your episodes there, and you can also leave a comment, uh and review,

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paid subscribers, and we like are not about that. Like, we absolutely appreciate any kind of support you're willing to give us. But it makes a huge different. Yeah, no, it does. It makes a huge difference. But we don't ever you know, we we hope that we can provide a free content to anybody, whether if you're able to support the show monetarily or not. Our our our hope was when we first started doing that, was that we

could cover our basic costs. We are, you know, now we're able to do little things like there's research materials that we can pick up. When I was doing the Train deal Raymond Deal Raymond or Joe you just kind of book recently. It really it makes a huge difference for appreciate. Yeah. Yeah, we have a mailing address now, yeah, I don't know anybody what it is. I don't know it. So you can email us if you want to send.

And we recently bought a new microphone stand, the Slavish Gold. Yeah. Yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, it gets up to a certain point. We have enough in the account. We're all going to take a trip to investigate a really bizarre mystery in Tahiti. Yeah, yeah, we will be. Yeahs are not happening, Okay, is there anything else? Any other details? Here. We need ready to wrap this up already, So to everybody from from Thinking Sideways and also from Mr Snuggles or at least one

of his descendants. Until next week, I'm just going to run aground. Oh damn it, I know,