Thinking Sideways: Princess Doe

don't know the answer. Tune. Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I am Devin, joined this week by Joe and Steve. We're recording like a week after Crime Con right now. It was fun. It was really fun. Not to like rub in the noses of the people who weren't able to come, but it was really fun every single one of you. Um So, I apologized for the little raspy nature of my voice.

It's been a long couple of weeks. Uh. This week two of crime Con yeah kind of we do yeah, where everyone was just um hungover and sad about being there. Um So, today we are going to talk about a case called Princess Dough. And this is no Princess Dough. And this was the listener suggestion in July of two thousand fourteen. It was hunter. So thank you. It's not when it's not by any means of Mr cruel small ears warning, But we're going to talk about murder and

stuff like that. So small ears warning. It's a medium. And I kissed today. They're raised and a diet of murdering mayhem. You know, there's nothing to them. It's true. So Princess Dough is a fifteen to twenty year old Jane Doe discovered on the grounds of a graveyard in Blairstown, New Jersey, on July fifteenth, nine two back. Princess Doe. Um, I think we'll probably just call her Princess from now on. You Princess a little simpler was found by a grave

digger who was employed by the graveyard. Her face was quote unquote bludgeon beyond recognition. Is the nicest way that I've seen that put. Yeah, you know, I mean what my understanding is they couldn't identify the color of her eyes. Yes, we must have been one hack of a bludge. Pretty pretty Yeah, well, I see. I always wondered if that was because of the time that she spent there and so there was a little bit of d coop or

if it was critters. They the investigators seemed to believe it was due to the beating de hopper critters were exploded because the rest of the body I knew her face was Yeah, but you know, like the tongue and things like that, would that would also be susceptible to critters were in fine condition. So good point. Welcome to the small ears. Yeah. Her body was found laying on its back with a red T shirt on her body,

kind of like a peasanty blouse. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a long red kind of peasanty skirt, like a long flowy skirt that was laid over her legs or draped over her legs. She was wearing no underwear. She was wearing a gold cross necklace and earrings in her left ear, only pictures of which are available. They are her only. Her right hand had painted nails, which was in a matching red to the clothes that she was found in slash under. How often do women paint just

one side and not the other? Um, It really depends on who is It really depends, um, you know, sometimes it's not so much that you've just painted the one hand. Oftentimes like a nervous ticks or to pull, like when I get really nervous, sometimes I'll pick up my nail polish and you just kind of Oftentimes people just pick at the one hand. You're sitting me watching me do

this right now, miming that. And so it's possible that she just picked all of it off of one hand and not the other, especially if she was right handed. And well, there's also the fact that some people just can't take it when their nails get scraped up. And if you scrape I my wife is this way. She scrapes one nail and it's screwed up. She will then go ahead and just get out the nail polish remover and take it off and neither repaint the nail or

just take the polish off entirely. Now, this dril might have been that, well, the one hands fine, but the other looks goofy. So I mean it's there's a whole spattering of ways. There's also a lot of conjecture online that says that this means that she must have been interrupted while painting her nails. But I don't think so, because they her nail posh wasn't It wasn't like smeared everywhere. It was dry. On the one hand, So it's it's unclear why that was. It is a bit of an

identifying mark. It's possible she was interrupted in mid mid painting, but not by violence right away. So the perpetrator, like you know, knocks on her door and says, hey, I want to go to the graveyard hang out. And then so she you know, says okay and leaves with them blowing on her nails a little bit. But you know, it could have been something like that. I guess favorite moment of the podcast so far watching Joe do the blowing, the blowing of the nails, motion, shaking of the hand.

This isn't this isn't alcoholism. This is trying to nail um. So she was estimated to be about five two five two inches tall. I've seen it as arrange from five two to five four. Yeah, but not. I'm not sure why. I'm not totally sure why you shrank if you're left out in the sun. I don't think you do. I'm

going with five two. Also, because she was only a hundred and fifteen pounds, So I mean, you know, it's yeah, it's frankly, it's a skinny five two, that's yeah's relatively young, at least potentially, well, I mean yeah, I mean even twenty years old is pretty young. I was more leaning towards the fifteen would make sense. Why she's five two and only a D and fifteen. She had blonde hair, although previously mentioned, we don't know about her eye color.

The coroner said that she was likely fourteen to eighteen years old, but um, a lot of other places I've read that the age range was fifteen to nineteen. So I guess the safest range would be sixteen to seventeen. Shoot for the middle, Shoot for the middle. She had all of her original parts, original carburetor, she hadn't had any surgeries or anything like that, kidneys, she had never given birth, and she had no scars remarks that they

could see. I guess it's possible. I guess that there's a range in her face where she was beat so bad that they wouldn't have been able to see scars, but it wouldn't be discernible. Yeah, based on post damage. Yeah, Yeah, the most literally the most distinct part of her actually was that her front two teeth were a slightly different color from the rest of her teeth. That was the only thing that they could provide to say, Hey, if you know a blonde girl who has slightly different colored

teeth that's missing, we might have found her. That Actually, believe it or not, is not all that uncommon, though. Oh the different teeth colors, it's not mine, aren't a little different. Well, I mean, I know folks who have fallen down and hit their head and damage the Is it the nerves, Yes, the nerves and their teeth, and so that the tooth is slowly dying, and that a lot of times is what causes that discoloration. Is as the tooth dies. You know, you've seen people with black

teeth because the tooth is dead. So at that point, you know, cosmetic oral surgery was not a thing. So it was actually pretty common. Well, I mean, it's not so uncommon that you would just have less white teeth and certaineries. Yeah, there's always range kind of depends to and how big the contrast really was. Yeah, and I don't know the answer to that question. That spent thirty five years, and nobody's nobody's stepped forward yet. You have

not yet. So Princess had fought back against her attacker. There were visible signs of defense on her hands, but she was very badly beaten and r fingernails. Maybe I don't think so this is a really wasn't well. They did preserve a lot of her body parts though, so that they could test DNA. It's true, but I don't think that there was anything under her fingernails or anything that didn't scratch the guy or anything. I guess I'm

being sexist here. It could have been a person. So, and we were kind of hinted at this before, but her body was probably was out there for a couple of days at least, maybe more like a week. I did see one place that said she had definitely been out there for a month, but I don't think it was. It was a really really warm, very very humid time

of year July, New Jersey. Yeah, so there was some decomposition happening to her for sure, um, but they did think that it was probably just a couple of days that her body was out there, and I would suspect that there the graveyard was also able to help a little bit in that you know, if they had groundskeepers, they would have hit that kind of area in a

whatever given amount of time. You know, I gotta be honest with you, I'm not I'm surprised that they found her as soon as they did because if you watch the footage that that is out there of you know that the guys trying to climb up that in bank and get out of there, it is super steep. I mean we're talking like a seventy five degree angle. Yeah, I mean something a body rolls down and any kind

of material from the area is stuck to it. It would be very easy to not see because who walks along the perimeter of that ravine looking down the whole time? That might be how she was found. It probably was, but I don't I don't think she did roll down the embankment because the skirt was laying on top of her.

But if the body was dumped let's say ten or fifteen feet down, because I mean they they if you watch the footage of those guys crawling out of there with the body bag, I mean she was far enough down that they had to crawl, you know, three hands, one hand holding the strap and two ft in a

hand pulling their selves up. I mean it's you know, I mean, she could have been dropped right out of the edge and it just slid down like it was a you know, earthen While that's true, that's true, Yeah, fair enough, Okay, But anyway, I doubt that she had been there a month now, that's that's successive. I think that the credits would have gotten to her. Absolutely, she and her her body would have decomposed. She was even

there for a week. Really, the detective assigned to the case was actually the one to name her Princess Dough. I haven't seen anywhere why he called her that. My understanding is that he picked that name because he wanted to give her something other than Jane Doe, because, you know, for some reason, felt really bad about this young girl being dead. Yeah, and I seem to remember him in an interview I watched saying, well, she she had to

have been somebody's princess. You know, somebody's a little girl at one point who was a princess, and so somehow that's stuck in his head. Okay, I saw that stuff too, but I guess I just didn't. I didn't think no, no, And I'm amazed this guy like really really just has hung onto this case. It's amazing the lengths that he's gone. His name as Lieutenant Eric Krantz. He's now retired. This case really touched the small community in New Jersey. Uh. They gave her a proper burial, and a local who

was just four at the time. His name is Travis Riggs. He even called a start a website called Princess Doe dot Org. I think the website is now defunct because I did try to reach out to Travis via the website and got one of those you know, Maillard Damon. Yeah, it looks like he hasn't been doing anything for least three or four years, because I was accountable a movement here,

and there's a movement. But I just thought it was incredible that somebody who was four at the time was so struck by this case that he would devote any amount of time, you know, spending. I got the feeling that this is probably one of those things. It's it's kind of like the oh gosh, I can't remember the case we were talking about the other day, where it's just everybody in town is always speculating about it. Our Indiana Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I think that's

probably true since this was in the eighties. As we also kind of mentioned before, testing DNA testing particularly um, but just testing in general was not where it is today and probably will not be where you future people are listening to us in you know, you're laughing at us for our crew techniques. Yeah, you know, watching us on holophoners or whatever, laughing as we talked into microphones.

Nobody uses those. But luckily, um, the investigators did have the foresight to preserve samples and not and not and preserve them in a way that they were actually preserved and they didn't get usable. This is the makings of

a Forensic Files episode. I swear to god, if it had been solved, it would definitely have been featured on their Forensic Scientists in two thousand twelve were able to assess samples of both her hair and her teeth, and it allowed investigators to get a better picture of where Princess was from. Somewhere North or South America, Yeah, somewhere

where blonde people are from. The sample of her hair was, um, it was pretty easy to analyze, and I I have to be honest, I pulled this like pretty much verbatim off of the Internet, because these people are smarter than me, and I can't I can't rewrite this. Um. So the hair indicated that she had lived at least seven to ten months in a Midwestern or northeastern state of the United States. UM, somewhat recently. I presume since I got it from her hair, it was within less eight months

something like that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, probably because you know, hair grows long, but it falls out pretty pretty frequently. So UM and her the sample of her tooth indicated that she might be from Arizona, but it also was believed that she had spent a long period of time in Long Island, New York. And they figured all that out because of the the trace minerals and things like that that we're in it based on what you would

find in the water. Water in Arizona is much different than water in New Jersey when you take it at you know, a base mineral count totally and the and yeah, the makeup of it is different. And because your body absorbs that, it's then you know, you can test for that, right exactly. This is a simplest version of how that worked. Yeah, So this was obviously really big news. And to the point where they even set up some mannequin, a mannequin

with Princess Doe's clothes on it. It was pretty weird. Um. And the facial reconstructions of her are like really subpar, kind of weird. I mean they're not I mean, we've seen some very interesting reconstructions in our lives, but they're passable. But they're all kind of they don't look like real humans really at all. Makes you wonder if they if they were. They were having trouble really piecing together the pr well, and not all of it was done right away.

Krantz kept trying to keep the case alive, uh, and so he would he would try and generate more interest in it, and so he would get the department to pay for a guy to come in and do a reconstructed drawing of her. But you know, that's well, and they've been updated ones and based on new technology and all that stuff. The reconstructions were they were, they would have been tough. I mean, she was very badly beaten, and but they did, you know, they were trying to

keep the case alive. So they did this thing where they put her clothes on a mannequin and actually that did generate some leads. A woman who saw the images of the mannequin set up with this girl's clothes in a newspaper article said that she remembered seeing the girl wearing or a girl wearing the same clothing as Princess Dough on July and which have been two days before. But that was like two days before she was discovered. But she came forward months later. I thought it was

like years later. Was it once? It was years later? Yeah, And it was just I find that hard to believe. Kind of well, I mean, not only she remembered that far back the exact outfit, but also the exact date, and that's kind of you know, yeah, I don't know, Yeah, I mean, I agree, But also it is interesting. Yeah, well maybe she's got a photographic memory. I don't know, maybe,

the woman said. I mean, so the reason that she said that she remembered seeing this girl, I presume, you know, like I when I was little, like I would go shopping with my mom as a special thing. You know. It wasn't like we go shopping for clothes all the time. And so it's possible that no, so it's possible that

this was a special occasion. Which is why the date stuck, and that that outfit is a pretty unique outfit, and if she was like, oh, I saw someone wearing something that looked a lot like that on this special day that we had, and we talked about how weird this woman was or this girl was dressed and what was she doing. I didn't think her those were all that weird. Actually, well,

it could be just a conversation. What what she's saying, you know, is it could be they had a conversation about the outfit, good, bad or in different Yea, I have conversations about outfits all the time because some judges heck ya, wait, wait till you walk out of her room, Joe, she said some horrible things. You know, we really should

go to the mall sometime. I don't. Um So. Actually, they were able also to trace the shirt and the skirt to a manufacturer in the Midwestern United States of America, but the brand labels were missing, which was well, I was just gonna say, which isn't all that suspicious because I sometimes cut labels out of my clothing because they're so scratchy, especially when you buy cheap clothes, they're super scratchy.

And I suspect that if this girl has never been identified, she probably wasn't from a family of means that was providing for her, so she's probably buying cheap clothes. Yeah, people, Three or four people actually reported that they had purchased similar clothing at a Long Island store which is now closed obviously, but it's not clear if that was a chain store or if it was just like a one

off boutique or something like that. So, um, you know, this is something I didn't see, and I'm just gonna ask you because I'm dumb, like that the clothes were they considered to actually be relatively new when her body was discovered. They weren't something that, say, could be a five year old dress, ensures that were lightning worn or something. Yeah,

I have no idea. I suspect they were considered to be relatively new, given the number of people who were able to say that they purchased clothes similar to that within a fairly short time period. Okay, I just I know fashion is is very fickle and things come and go quite quickly, and so that's what makes me think that it probably was fairly recent. Pictures online of the clothes to where these same clothes that she was wearing, the red shirt, and yeah, they don't look too afraid. No,

I think they were. And you know there's little things like there's a tiny like along the collar and the hem piping, there's a little bit of well, it's not you could call it piping. She's about to geek out. I'm you know, enough of a closer to tell you it's not actually piping. But there's um some very thin velveteen ribbon that they use as trim along the neck and the the waist and or the hem sorry of the shark. And you know that's the sort of stuff

that goes kind of south pretty quick. It shows where quickly, um so I said. And they looked like they were in fine condition, not great, but you know, fine conditions. So I suspect it was they were fairly new. So we're almost two theories. But before we start talking about theories, we do need to talk about MTVS fear. I have a lot of fear of MTV. Yeah, I never saw it. This is from this is from Wikipedia. Um So, I'm admitting that I did almost no research on fear. You're

not missing anything. And I watched this show. Yeah, oh like once or twice and it was so dumb. That's where they believe people like alone in a haunted house or something like that. Roup of people here, promoted as MTVS Fear is an American paranor I'm literally reading wikipedi right now, guys, I'm admitting it is an American paranormal reality to television series that originally aired from two thousand two or from two thousand to two thousand two on MTV.

The program follows a group of five or more contestants being left at an allegedly haunted location and led them on a series of dares over two nights to explore and confirm whether or not the place was haunted. This this was a cheap knockoff of Survivors. What this was? This has been reality TV suddenly started becoming bigger than it had ever been because it was like Survivor, it was kind of small. And also it was like everybody's doing it and they all made the crappiest shows. So

did anybody get killed at least? No, damn it. There are a lot of you know, mannequins were thrown at people, but that's about it. Yeah, So stick your hand in a bucket of spiders. Maybe there was an episode in the first season that featured a totally fictionalized version of Princess Doe's story, which has added to a lot of confusion around the case. In MTVS Fear, Princess was portrayed as a victim of occult sacrifice. Wasn't there a head?

Supposedly she was decapsuated, And yeah, totally, there's literally no reason, literally no reason to literally no reason to think that this is true. In Princess's case, she was not captated, she had her hands, and she was not a cult sacrifice could have been called sacrificed, not likely, no evidence to indicate, So stop it to stop, no stop. Yeah, So with all of that haven't been said, we're going to get into theories. But first we're gonna take a

quick break. Can you imagine working under backbreaking conditions day after day after day and having to eat the same thing night after night after night. Heart tack and thin soups would be your culinary reward for hauling sale in the blazing sun and the pounding rain, And only occasionally, while at anchor would you and Quick wagg be able to find a place like the tiny pots that served a meal to die for. The great thing is you

don't have to travel to eat like that. You can do it from the comfort of your own home with Hello Fresh. Hello Fresh is the meal delivery service that makes cooking more fun for you, so you can stay focused on the whole experience, not just the plate and each Hello Fresh creates new, delicious recipes with step by step instructions designed to take about thirty minutes for anyone

from novices two seasoned home cooks short on time. Hello Fresh is now offering light summer meals and just introduced breakfast options. We've had Hello Fresh. They sent it to us and I loved it. Good food all around. If you'd like to try Hello Fresh, they've extended to our listeners a special offer if you go to their website and use the promo code sideways thirty. That's sideways thirty and you'll get thirty dollars off your first week of deliveries.

So go to Hello fresh dot com and enter sideways thirty when you subscribe, and remember, Hello Fresh has delicious ingredients you'll love to eat and simple recipes you'll love to cook. And we're back the theories. In true devon fashion, we have two big headings and then subheadings and then stub headings too big. We need to talk about who Princess Dough might have been, and we also need to talk about who might have done this to Princess do Good.

Questions off, So let's talk about who Princess Dough might have been. First. There are a couple interesting theories out there. I guess there's really only two names that have ever kind of stuck. And then a lot of sort of random speculation. Yeah, but the biggest one is Diane Janese die. For many years, actually, Princess Doe was thought to have been Diane. She was a missing teenager from San Jose, California. She never turn up. She never did no she she

disappeared on July in se um. This theory was kind of propagated by several law enforcement. The word you're looking for is pushed. Where did they get the idea from? Though? I don't really know, you know, I guess it's because it's just an old case. There's a bunch of different ideas that have put forward, and but it's time or whatever the reasons they think these things have sort of gone away. You can't find them. I think you know. The other thing is people, if you find something that

kind of fits, you can close two cases. And sometimes it's just better to you know, willfully be ignorant about the whole situation. Well in a way for the family, it's it's a method too though incorrect give the family closure. Yeah, And I don't I don't think that's fair. I don't think that really does anybody any favors. But I don't know. Um, but there were actually some law enforcement officials in New Jersey who actually even how how to press conference that

they officially identified so yeah, as Dane Die, Lieutenant Krantz. Remember, Yeah, he maintained the Diane Die was not a good candidate for Princess Doe as an identity. He just didn't think they fit, which is fair. They didn't really look too too much alike, and um, he just overall just didn't agree and you know, and the yeah, they just he

just didn't really agree with that assessment. So he actually convinced Diane's family and the investigators in California who were searching for Diane to give some samples of DNA to be compared. So in two thousand three, Princess Doe's DNA was compared with the DNA sample from Diane's mother, Patricia DNA, like, so maternal DNA which will conclusively say, yes, this DNA came from you know, is the child of this person or not? And um, Patricia was ruled out as the

mother of Princess Dough. So Diane die too bad for the family. I guess it would have been kind of nice in a way, you know, it would have. But also, you know, I guess I'm always want to think like that just brings hope that maybe, I mean, maybe Diane is still alive out there somewhere. Maybe she'd be you know, in her for change her name to Lori Erica Rough and she's doing well, yeah, doing great, Yeah, really great. So not that, but that's one of the biggest theories

you'll see. And actually there are still people on the internet who say, oh, you know, Princess Doe is Diane die, but they've never read the research. Apparently, well, it's actually not completely impossible. I mean, if one when Diane was born, if she was actually accidentally switched with another baby, then obviously it would be a it would be a startling set of coincidences. But it is technically I can wrap my head around it. You can win the lottery. Yeah. Um,

somebody put this on my script, wasn't me you? Joe theorem two point five that Princess Doe was actually Patricia Vaughan. Um, this is similar to Diane Die. And then people have put it out there because well it the one looks well that looks good about it is. She disappeared two months before Princess Doe turned up. She went missing from West Virginia, so kind of I think she was originally like raised Connecticut, but was actually in West New England

sort of. I mean, but you know, closer than Oregon is, and she was she was Do you remember how old she was too? I don't. I don't remember. She was in the age. I think she was twenty, so she was on the upper end of the age bracket. That was some reason. I'm taking nineteen nineteen or twenty still the upper end of the age bracket. And she wasn't reported missing until ninete five. That's kind of interesting, baffling. Yeah, I agree. And now now there's actually a Facebook page

for Patricia. Yeah, so they wait thirteen years. Now they're really into it on facebook page. Yeah. Um, and you know, I guess, fine, why not. You know, she was blonde and technically kind of in the age range. But well, and if you look at photographs, there's a couple of photos that were out there. She looks the shape of

her face and everything. Well. The thing about the great thing about Princess though, is there's so many different sketches and reconstructions that you know, you can find one that looks like just about anybody. That's true. Yeah, I mean yeah, meshed up with a lot of people. Yeah, but um, one of the big problems is her height. Patricia was like five right, yeah, there is that. Yeah. She also

had um in her name. I don't remember which one it is, Charlie project posting maybe Um she had a broken arm, and she'd had her tonsils out and her wisdom teeth were impacted, and Princess Do didn't have any of those things. So, um, I don't think it's good match at all. No, probably not. I don't know why. I've actually I've seen this not just on the Internet but in news accounts. Although you know, of course I've

seen on news accounts, journalism whatever. It's the same as the Internet, I guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's those are the only two named people that we really added. One theory is that Princess Dough is a runaway or a prostitute. Was The theory goes predictably that princess ran away. Um maybe she was Vaughan. Maybe she ran away, and then she was a well known in Ocean City, Maryland, either as being a runaway or as a prostitute, or perhaps both, um um. And this is another sory that

I just yeah, where the hell it came from. Yeah, So the idea that she was a well known prostitute at a local truck stop, I guess. And there's a big problem with this, and that is that not a single person came forward and said they recognized her. On the other hand, I'll go ahead and say that if she was indeed underaged, I don't know a single person who would be like, oh, yeah, I know that prostitute that I've been sleeping with. No, you don't say that.

I'm sorry, you just don't. I mean, even if you're a really good person and you really you want to help, Well, that's such a thing as like, you know, writing a little note and dropping it in the mail. That's my thought. There's such a thing as an anonymous phone call from

a pay phone. So that's why I think that probably she was not a prostitute somehow, But somehow I've been I've been doing a lot of research about girls that are in this situation, you know, of of falling into prostitution as a means to survive, and there's a whole bunch of different ways to cope. Some get on drugs and they become very well known because they're they're just trying so hard all the time, because they're not only trying to support themselves but a habit. There are others

who are very standoffish. They they're clean, but they go they meet a john, they do what they gotta do, and then they take off and they're just moving around and they're not staying in the same place. And those girls, the second one I'm mentioning, those are the ones that it's easiest for them to disappear and nobody knows because they're not in one place long enough. Like this whole she was at particular truck stop, a whatever like that

doesn't make sense, but these girls bounced around. You meet a guy, you make a couple of bucks off him, you talk him into giving you a ride to the next major truck stop and then you hop out and he goes his way and you go your way, and these girls disappear. And there's a lot of freaking scuzz balls in those truck stops, especially back in the a that was that was a supermarket for killers. And yeah, and and also she was found that set tery, which

is actually on a on a highway. I mean it's not a super highway everything, but it's not a back road by any means. And of course, you know it's an obvious place to go pull off the dead of night is to a cemetery. Just go off to the edge there and do do you're killing it and you know, push the body in the ravine and off you go. We don't even we don't even know that she was killed there. I mean, it's it's very possible that she

was killed someplace else and then just jumped. Yeah, you know, the person whoever it is, man or woman or beast, whatever the case may be, puts her there, laser skirt over and gives her a shove downhill and walks back out and takes off, And nobody's going to be the wiser. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, So I don't know. I think it is possible that maybe she was a runaway prostitute to support herself, but I don't think it's possible. I don't think it's likely

that she was like a regular that everybody knew her. Yeah, I will not agree with that she was a known worker at that area. I think we're probably gonna get in trouble because I think the proper term as sex worker, we've got a little flack. So sorry about the sex worker doesn't really cover because sex worker can mean a lot of things. Well that's true, you know, but uh, and I don't know how many how many prostitutes actually get into drugs and that kind of thing. Apparently Princess

Do did not have any drugs in her system. She did not, And so I'm sure that there probably are prostitutes who don't do drugs. I don't know. I guess, yes, of course there are. Yeah, okay, yeah, okay, no, not all. There's a theory out there that she worked at a local camp, like a Friday thirteens kind of camp, exactly camp. Actually, I'm pretty sure this one came from Fear, because in Fear, the character that was portrayed as Princess Dough was um

the fictionalized version of her. She was found on the grounds of Camp spirit Lake, which is a fictionalized version of no Be Bosco name. I think it's probably Indian, you think so, I do, Okay, because it the way it's written, in the way I've seen it written, I always assumed somebody made it up. Oh yeah, No, I think like, we're going to make a camp here for kids, and let's make a fun name. Let's call it. Yeah, I wonder what that you know, Noby so don't be

whoever Bosco is? Yeah, Boscoe, don't be Bosco. Coltrane could be got to feel in this a joke in there? I do I really think that there is. I'm sorry this is very tangentle, but we were in Vegas and we were at the Excalibur, and there's a there's an Italian restaurant there called Bubba Dabuco and that's what this reminds me. Anyway, So Camp No By Bosco is actually a real camp in Hardwick Township in New Jersey, which

is close to where Princess Doe was found. But if she had been at that camp, don't you think that somebody would have said, Hey, it's weird this this person in the camp is gone. Yes, well, actually that camp. The reason that that camp is notable is because it was actually the filming location for Friday and even more crazy, Lieutenant Krantz. You remember Lieutenant Krantz. He was actually in Friday thirteen that the film at that camp, two years

before they found Princess. Does I heard that? Now? What did he did? He play a corpse or or teenager? I think he was an extra if I remember correctly, he was somewhere in the background. He wasn't now a speaking part. It was probably just one of the policemen that shows up at the end the cart away the bodies, Yeah, you know, and and he ugled Jamie Lee Curtis and then he left do that. No, she wasn't in that movie. That was how the wheen you're thinking of it was like,

who was that girl? She had big hair? It was an eighties movie. It's I get they're all so silly anymore. I get mixed up. I just know it's on Freddy Krueger. So I'm I'm pretty sure that that is where that came from. I don't think that there's any credit. And also I agree that if a camp counselor or somebody who was attending a camp had disappeared, the people who

are running the camp would have been pretty on it. Hey, well, unless there's like this sole thing where there's a camp and then you know, the whole vacation is over and everybody leaves, how you wouldn't think to be leaving as early as mid July. Yeah, I don't think so, but but I mean camps do run in cycles, you know, two three, four week cycles. But even if that were the case, as much coverage as this story, somebody would have recognized those clothes. Yes, somebody's like it should have.

Somebody should have been keyed in just to recognize something. They totally would. So that's all the theories for who this person, Princess Do might have been. Let's talk about who might have done this to Princess Do. Nancy Reagan, I don't think so. No, there's a theory out there, and I think this is we're want to do like most to least credible. I guess at least the most. You want to at least the most we can at

least the most. The least credible theory I've ever heard I literally titled this the dumbest theory is that Princess Dough was killed by the Blairs by by a Blair's town police officer, which is why the case was never solved. That's so dumb, is it, though? Yeah, you know that if you're like that, you're the investigating officer, and this this is one particular guy that wanders by every month, so it says, hey, you know when you're moving on

Princess Dough and awesome. Great, I mean that's really too bad. Yeah, yeah, I was waiting for you say hi, five. I'm so sorry. It's it's not the craziest thing because listen, we have read about and had people talk to us about massive instances of police involvement and corruption for things like this. I mean, yeah, yes, it's not unheard of, but there's

no evidence and there's no evidence. And the deep dedication that um Lieutenant Krantz has shown to this case, I mean he's been investigating it actively, even in retirement obviously, lieutenant right, but he would have I think he would have found something out if there was something to be found out. And I've done supporting this is fun. It's just the next amis theory is Henry Lee Lucas. You

guys know Henry Lee Lucas. Yeah, Henry Le Lucas is the serial killer who claims to have murdered more than three thousands of people. So of course he is a suspect. I don't see any similarities with his actual confirmed murders and this murder. I mean, yeah, that's problem with that, guys. You really can't take him as his word. Unfortunately. We just talked about this recently. Yeah, I can't do it. Uh.

The next most credible theory is Joel Rifkin. He's also a serial an American serial killer, but I can't remember. I know he's killed a bunch, but how many did he kill? I don't remember. Okay, he's believed to have killed up to seventy Yeah, prefect, Yeah, but it would have been really early. His first official murder was in a nineteen eighty nine And he also had a thing for going for prostitutes in the New York area. So and the and his his mode. He did a lot

of weird cutting of paint. Isn't he the one who did like the weird cutting situation with clothes? He well, he would he would take off like the first girl, he took off her finger, her fingertips and her teeth, and like he was doing some semi dismembering, like he wasn't just a guy who just dumped the body hole and just I mean, I can see the argument for escalation. You know that he just accidentally beat this one girl and then didn't do anything. But I don't wait when

was when was princess found? And he? But I don't, I don't don't think it was him. I don't think really always a worried, we were like, oh, but it was escalation because it just seems like too easy of a way to paint the guy into the box, paint the box around the guy, especially since we have a better suspect. So I think the most plausible suspect is

Arthur and maybe Donna kin Law. Donna Kinlaw was arrested in California for attempting to commit welfare fraud by using the name Elena, which was traced to a Long Island native who was actually involved in a prostitution ring that her husband, Arthur kin Law, was running. Donna gave details about two other murders that she said Arthur had committed. Both were unidentified females, and both remain an unidentified from Princess. This is aside from Princess. It's also it's aside from

Elena as well. Elena had been murdered. Why did okay, why did Donna like so because she had been murdered, then she just she was on the hook for the murder. So that's why she implicated. No, she was on the hook for welfare, for frau fraud. Yeah, and so she thought she was getting good with the cops by turning her husband in that. You know, Honestly, I don't know why. I don't know her motivations. I'm not a criminal psychologist, so I don't know why she decided to just talk

about this. Some people are just talkers. She also, I think, was trying to paint herself as the just victim. She didn't she was being forced to do these things, and I think she felt she was trying to paint herself as she felt guilty. I don't know if she did or not, But now I seem to remember reading something about the fact that you know, Don was not Don Arthur, sorry that Arthur was you know, he was controlling and abusive.

That's what Donna said when she was arrested, and so, of course it was not her, It was him the whole time to answer Joe's question, and she was she just she couldn't do anything about it or she'd get the well she did. She did say, um, at least once that he literally held like a gun to her head and said you have to do this. I don't remember what that was. I don't think it was a murder thing. I think it was something else, but um,

she said that he threatened her. And so after Arthur went to trial and faced the death penalty for the original three murders, Donna gave further know the original three murders, the two unidentified women and Elena o Um. Donna gave further information that Arthur had killed one other female, a young prostitute, in a graveyard in early two. There's really no corroborating evidence for this. It sounds like Donna's story may have changed a few times. There's police can't substantiate it,

Donna said. In one instance, Donna said that Arthur had brought a young woman who was matched the description and wearing similar clothes home and then left and then came back without her In another instance, Donna said, actually she had gone to the graveyard with them, and then Arthur had said, um, and you know she had watched him. She had been a witness. And then Arthur said, if you tell anyone, I'll do this to you. So her

story changed a couple of shifts. But I'm not I guess I'm don't know why she would say that he murdered her if he didn't, unless it was to try to solidify the death penalty so she never had to see.

I think that what she was trying to do is shovel it on thick and deep so that she looked like the innocent bystandard, like we were just talking about, and as you guys just kind of hinted at so that he had that he just there was no way he was going to get out of it so that he couldn't come after her, whether he truly was doing the things she said he was or not, or if

she just said, hey, Patsy thinks a lot. There's a lot of guys who are you know, pamps and run prostitution rings, who aren't necessarily murderers, but who still are violent kind of people. Really, you know, I can see why she might want to get away from him and

see him looked up for a long time. But as far as that, the whole problem with this is, this case actually did get a fair amount of publicity, and so it's entirely possible that you know, her being from that that kind of area in the geographic area not far from New Jersey, heard all about it, you know, I heard about the circumstances of this body being found in Braveyard, New Jersey, and so yeah, so even though Arthur may well have committed some murders, well, I mean,

I guess the other thing is is that like finding out who did that to her doesn't really bring us any closer to finding out who will. He might he might have some clues as to her identity if you find out who it is and ring the ring the truth out of him, you might. But if it was I mean, but if it was Arthur, he said he'd has picked up a random prostitute. I mean, he Well,

I find it. I find it interesting though that whoever did kill princess, I find it really thought it was important to obliterator face and but just around the eyes that her mouth was totally I don't I disagree, I don't know that this is necessarily a scenario where it was done in such a way to make her unidentifiable, because I mean, everybody at that point, everybody knows about fingerprints. If you really want to take her off the map, you would do like what's his name and started cutting

off the hands and the fingertips. But supposing you knew her, and you knew that she had never been arrested her fingerprinted. But okay with that, that that implies that you know her well enough to know that. I mean, this could be There's nothing saying that the murderer didn't know her. Yeah, but there's there's I mean, it could very well have been just I mean, we've talked about these cases for just a case of rage and the guy literally just beats her and beats her and beats her past the

point of death. He is just Yeah, I recognize what you're saying. Yeah, but I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that was deliberately for two or to impede identification. And I'm saying I don't, I don't. I don't think that it necessarily was. I mean, the level that her face. Yeah, but if I were the police, I would be thinking about it the Yeah, I'd be thinking about that particular things. So she's not been arrested, and yet somebody would have

known her by her by her face. So I mean, you know, it's not much, but it's possible that if she was if she was in the industry, she may not have been in the industry for a long period of time. And there are I think she wasn't a prostitute. No, but I'm not either, But I'm saying if if that's the scenario, she may have been in it a short enough of time or good enough at avoiding being caught that she wasn't in the system, because there are people who go for years without getting picked up by the

We also might not have been a prostitute. Yeah, she may have been some poor innocent bystander who got a ride from the wrong could be a hitchhiker psycho. Yeah, and it could have been, like you know, that would be one reason to like, say, if you picked her up at a truck stop or somewhere and you're a little worried that somebody's going to recognize her in the papers, you know, and then maybe put two and two together. They they saw her climbing into your brown buik with you, well,

just wipe her face out. And although there were really distinctive clothes, so I don't know why you would leave her clothes and take her clothes with that remark, that's a good point to Clearly, it didn't really matter that much because nobody has come forward and said, yeah, I recognize those clothes. Yeah, all right, Well, um that's all I have. Do you guys have any additional theories? Uh? Not really. All I would say for the clothes too, is that who knows. I mean the skirt, she might

not even have ever worn that skirt. I mean somebody could have out at the good Will and draped it over her body. I mean somebody could have pulled her pants and her panties offered and throwing them away somewhere else. And yeah, I mean it could have been it could be a tall Red Herring. Harry. Oh sorry, this one's got more in terms of so, um, yeah, I'm not super thrilled about the resolution to this case, but we

cover un self mysteries. Somebody will listen to this podcast, it will jar their memory and there will be some resolution here. Uh. So we're gonna put some links as usual on our website that you can find there um, where you can also stream the episode if you want. I think you can download the episode from the website as well. If you're wondering if we've covered a case, there's a list of episodes there um. You can also find links to our merch The website is Thinking Sideways

podcast dot com. We're on social media of course. Uh. You can find us on Facebook. We've got a group and a page, so like the page and join the group. You've got Twitter which is Thinking Sideways. We also have a subreddit which is just thinking Sideways. And finally, uh, if you want to get a hold of us, the very best way to do that is to send us an email. We despite the thousands of emails we get a day, we don't get a thousand emails a day. We got a lot of we we respond to every

single one of them. Eventually takes us a little while, but we read and respond to every single email that we get, including spam sometimes on accidents. So there you go. So you can send us an email at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And I think that's all the business we have. Um, did you give that? Just phone number yeah. Um. Anyway, Okay, I guess that's all I have for this week, So we're just gonna depressingly

get out of here, I suppose so. To everybody, we'll see you in a week al right, guys, talk to you next week when Devin's voice is better. Yeah,