Thinking Sideways: Neta Fornario

head a lot as a baby. For me, it's just the booze and lack of sleep. What are we talking about today? Today we are going to talk about the death, the mysterious death of Netta for Narreo. So they're looking at a picture of a right here. This is what you see on most of the web page is a deal with this little mystery. Except that's not actually a picture of her. That's a picture of somebody named Mona Mathers, who figures kind of in this story a little bit.

But it's not Netta. It's not Netta now now it's Moena. Do we have a picture of Netta? No, I've not been able to. I thought that that was Netta for the longest time checking it out, but now it turns out that's Moina Mathers. So we're talking about Netta but not. But yeah, I just wanted to let people know that if you go check this out in the web and you see this picture of this kind of good looking woman with kind of wild she looks crazy. She's got

a bird's nest hair do. Yeah yeah, but she's still she's still you kind of good looking, you know, but spite the hair, yeah, despite the crazy hair. Well, So anyway, let's talk about Netta. Okay, so just a quick brief intro summary here. In late summer nine, Netta four an area thuring three years old, resident of London, England, left London and traveled to the island of Iona and probably mispronouncing that I think it's Iona, might be Ilana. I

think it's you know, it's in the Scottish Hebrides. It's um anyway, it's it's one of those little bitty tiny islands out there that's got a quint little village and not much else. So anyway, yeah, a lot to that. She was planning an extended stay there. Uh. In late November the same year, she went missing. After two days search, her naked body was discovered on top of a quote very amount unquote because I'll talk about this a little later, but everybody believed that this island was like full of

ghosts and fairies and stuff like that. Well, it was the twenties and you know Scotland. We've talked about this before. Oh yeah, she had she or somebody most likely her, had cut a large cross in the turf using a dagger, which was found near near her body, and laid down on the dagger. She was not technically completely naked. She had a very thin black cloak on her, but that was it. And this is late November in the Scottish Hebrides, so obviously it must have and really cold. Yeah. Yeah.

Some accounts say that she was clutching some papers in her hand, one of her hands letters of a mysterious nature and but other accounts say that those letters were found in your luggage back in her room. She was staying with this lady named Mrs McMurray McRae. Uh. Some say that blue lights were seeing in the vicinity of her body, but of course there's more than more often than not, there's blue lights in these mysteries. So yeah, I know, I know. And a strange man was supposedly

lurking nearby wearing a black cloak. Yeah stalker. Yeah, I know, the twins obviously. Yeah, maybe he was wearing her black cloak. Yeah. Any way, back to the start, So why didn't you go to Iona. Iona's a very tiny island. It's about a mile wide, about four miles long. You get to it by taking a ferry from the Isle of Mole, which is to the east of it. You get to the Isle of Mole by taking a ferry to there. Not an easy place I assume for this little journey.

She probably had to take like a long train ride and maybe then uh you know, a couple of ferry rides at the like from London. It would have been from London to the coast, right, yeah, and then on a ferry and then likely another train across the island or the bus or a car or something. And is probably not a whole lot of car traffics. Probably most

of the community's done via train. Yeah yeah, yeah, that that just doesn't sound like a quick and easy afternoon johned Now, not someplace you go to the week go for just the weekend or you just happen to be at if you just happened to live in the Isle of mold That it's a quick, easy, happy John from London one of the ways. Anyway. The population that the latest census count of the is a hundred and seventy seven people. I assume it was fewer people back in

those days. The only town is called again I'm sorry for the mispronunciation, but it's called bail Moore, but the locals call it the village, Yeah, the village. The island is also home to the Bay at the back of the ocean, which is an oddly named bay for such

a backwater ionas has got a really interesting history. It's and it actually the earliest structure found on the island was constructed they guess about a hundred years previous to Christ and it was what they call an iron age hilltop fort was it was probably something that mainly was like earthen earthen ramparts kind of thing, probably not as serious, but but so it's been inhabited for a long time. But in five sixty three a d A monk named Colomba,

who later became sync Colomba, founded a monastery there. He had been exiled to the island for various reasons that I don't really need to get into, but if you want to hear more about it, I can. I can

point you towards some links. And anyway, so he and about a dozen other monks founded this monastery, and this monastery turn as it turned out, would play a crucial role in converting most of the UK to Christianity, and the island became a center of a very important monastic system, and it would also be a major center of learning. And it's believed, although nobody knows for sure that the Book of Kells was created there, or maybe at least

part of it was created there. They're not sure if the Book of Kells was actually created in just one place or in a number of places and assembled. They're not refreshed my memory. What is the Book of Kells again? Look Atkels is a very very heavily illuminated a series of the Gospels. It's not all of the New Testament, but but some of it, and very elaborately illustrated. And

it came out of this region. Yeah, and so they're not sure if it came out purely out of Iona or not out of iona or just some pages if it came out of this place. They don't really know for sure it's it's but it's a very well known historic Scottish book of the Bible. About yeah, illuminated version. Do I'm sorry, do we need to tell people what illuminated means? And so if you don't know what illuminated text is, it just means that it's been very elaborately

like embroidered and illustrated. You know, you see a lot in like Italian kind of or like you know the yeah, actually Italian Catholic stuff, right, it's the like gold filigree with like drawings along the sides and like with the huge starting letters and drop caps or what they're called, yes, and the I think these are the kind of books where it would take let's just I'm making up a number, but let's just say five months a month to make all of the illustrations for one pain and they were

actually gold leafed and all of it and you had to paint the gold on oh yeah, yeah no. And if you don't know what one of those are, I mean, if if you just haven't seen one before, check they're fantastic to to think that somebody sat there with an ink pen and a brush to paint all that color so painstakingly, and then to brush on liquid gold. Yeah, that's the amazing part. Diana was also a great place to be for a while. It was the place to be if you were royalty and you were dead, you

were looking for a place. Yeah. Apparently as of the year fifty nine, they were sixty kings buried on the island there because were they buried or interred, They were interred and and and actually interred can me either being buried or being put in a like a corrupt or male often royalty. I don't know, it's my my impression that often royalty is actually like interred in a masolem

or Yeah. Well, sometimes they would do the burial mound where they would erect you know, they put everything in, They give you a little stone structure, and then they would cover that in the big burial mounds. So I think that's why it's kind of a gray area. Yeah.

I think in this case they were buried in the soil though, because the reason that they were buried there is there was a belief that the soil of the island was holy and that it would remove your sins and cleansy so that you could enter heaven more cleanly. Really interesting. Yeah, and if your royalty and you spent your entire life like in a scheming and you know, murdering your opponents in your competition, then you probably want

a little soul clansy before you enter heaven. But anyway, yes, there were forty eight Scottish kings ain't Norwegian kings and four Irish kings buried there as of the year fifteen forty nine. And it's even mentioned in Shakespeare's Macbeth tragedy. Yes, so yeah, there's a there's a reference to it in there, and it's the references about Duncan's body He's carried to columb Kill and colm Kill means Columbus Island, which is another word for Eona carried to colm Kill, the sacred

storehouse of his predecessors and guardian of their bones. So even Eana. Really it was a happening spot. If it made for such an IDEO, that's really surprising. Yeah. Yeah, And so I'm going into all this this travelog thing because just as a trying to Yeah, yeah, it's kind of fun and besides, which maybe explains from motivation because exactly what why would a person might that be motivated

to ghost, you know, go live on this island. Diona is also supposedly inhabited by ghosts, fairies, sea fairies and all kinds of stuff like this. It's got a long long list of legends about this about this place. So Netta would find would have found that at active because she was into the occult, in the astral projection and

stuff like that. She was a member of Alpha a Omega, which was an offshoot of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which is another cult group and I don't know about at that time, but I know that, like modernly, Shakespeare's Scottish Tragedy is pretty well read and regarded in

terms of kind of occult ghost story stuff. I can see how it would be a draw um for her as an occult member, for any occult member really, I mean, if they if they were read in that sort of shakespeare lore situation or I guess anymore, it seems yeah, these guys were and that they weren't just into Shakespeare. They had all sorts of like magical beliefs. There were these things called the Secret Chiefs, which were like these cosmic beings, beings that they believed that they had like

a direct phone line to cosmic chiefs. They're they're they're called the Secret Chiefs, I think and to see. And so these were cosmological beings that controlled a lot of the chaos of the universe, and and they could be communicated to according to the leaders of these of these cults, that they could communicate with these people. Uh so, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, it was in national

projections and all kinds of stuff. I had no reason to believe that they were into like any of the really ugly stuff like you know, human sacrifice and animal sacrifice and all that stuff. I don't think they were. Um well now, and maybe I'm thinking of the wrong group, but I remember there was something that I read about one of the one of the guys. It was a founder I had asked for somebody to be buried alive in front of some building that they had. That was

I believe that was say Colombu built as monastery. Yeah. I wasn't sure if I was getting it confused, because I remember there was something about somebody needs to be buried lying in front of this building. All. Yeah, that was a friend of his friend volume and then they know uncover his face so that he can say goodbye to everybody, and he's obviously having second facity again. Up again. It's really weird, But yeah, is a weird sect of

Christianity people back in those days. I mean, I guess life was a little cheaper back in those days, and he didn't really need to He didn't really expect to live beyond about at thirty five. So maybe this guy figured out, what the hell, if I go out on a high note like this, I'm gonna be sure to get to heaven the whole. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was founded by Samuel mathers uh the group

with attractive a fair followers ship. In the early nineteen hundreds, there was a bit of a sex scandal and so he lost some of his some of his temples, but the ones that remained that remained loyal to him he renamed the alphae Omega or in other words, Alpha and Omega, and then after he died in nineteen eighteen, he was six seed in the leadership role by his widow, Moyna Mather's. Moyna Mather's is the one I showed you the picture

of the one, the one who appears on Yeah. So, um, Netta was a member of this particular sect or cult or whatever. But she was just a member, right, Yeah, she wasn't, as far as I know, in any kind of leadership role. Moya eventually succeeded in expelling someone named Dionfortune from the Order. The Unfortune was a woman who actually was friends with Netta for an area, but she published some of the air some of the cult secrets. I believe it was in about two she actually published

some of those. And also it was rumored that Moyna was jealous because her abilities to do things like astral projection and stuff like that were superior to Moynas and so she just didn't really like it like her, And so she succeeded in getting her expelled from the Order, and Dion went on and joined some other cults and you know, did pretty well with them and remained friends with Netta for an area. Anyway, I'll talk about Moyna and Dion later. So back to Netta. I haven't talked

about Netta much at all so far. We talked about her for about a minute and a half and giving a travelog and a history of this alpha and it's all back story. It's very important stuff. It really pays. Yeah. Her full name was Nora Emily Aditha Fnario. Her nickname was Netta, and I don't know Nora's nice. I don't know about all four names. So she headed to the island, and she, upon landing, found lodging with a lady called

Mrs McCray. And I had not been able to definitively establish what Mrs mcgray's full name is, but that's okay, we don't need to know. She was Mrs McGray. I seem a kindly old lady. Apparently they became friends at Netta spent her day's wandering around the island and spent her nights doing supernatural stuff like trances, astral projection, stuff like that. So she spent some of her days sleeping.

Probably did a little sleeping too. She also believed that she could heal people with their psychic hours, and actually sent a letter to her housekeeper in London. So she still had her digs back in London, and she had been in communication, but she in this letter she said she wouldn't be sending any letters for a while because she quote had a terrible case of healing unquote to work on. I don't nobody knows what that means. It's a little mysterious that she apparently was either healing herself

or healing somebody else. And it's a weird phrase. Yeah, it's not phrase. I think Netta was an odd person. I think I generally feel though, that I can get into the minds of people in this kind of you know, new age. I've been there, right, Like we've all kind of had that phase where we go through and we're like, well, yeah, projection and a tarot cards and all that stuff. I don't know if you guys did I went through that phase.

I didn't think it too seriously. I read what's his name, don Juan, Yeah, yeah, yeah, with the the guy who wrote these books about how he went out to this guy's yeah, and it was like Carlos Castanana. Yeah, Carlos Castanada, who it turns out, by the way, I was I was going to do a little bit about Carlos Castanado because he's an interesting guy of himself, because he was the guy I really got into his books when I was like, you know, eight nineteen years Yeah, that's exactly

what I did. Yeah, yeah, and you get into this stuff and it turns out the guy was. The guy was actually very very manipulative and ran a little cult with a lot of little acolytes and stuff. The guy was, Yeah, the guy was, and he was a massive fraud. Oh yeah, and like a drug addict and and like all of that. Notwithstanding, like you know, we've all kind of been through that phase.

Maybe Steve, I guess hasn't been. But I generally feel like I can get into this kind of like mindset, like I can at least understand it a little bit. But you know, the what is it a terrible case of healing like that. She was like a little out of my realm of being able to understand what's going on there. Yeah, she's so. Nedda was either very gifted in the psychic manner or she was a bit unbalanced. Yeah, it could be, but she is. It's it's really kind

of hard to say. It's kind of a kind of a head scratcher, but apparently her friend Dion believed that she was psychically well, psychically gifted, very gifted in it. She also she also told her landlady Mrs McGray that she sometimes went in to trances and said it at one time she had gone into a trance that lasted

for a week. What I'm sharing, Mrs McGray found a little weird, but she she told Mrs McGray that she shouldn't worry if if she wanted to a trance, and she shouldn't call a doctor, she should just let it pass. But she apparently never wanted any major trances while she was staying there with Mrs McRae. On the morning of November seventeenth, which was a Sunday, Uh, Nedda started packing

her luggage frantically. When Mrs McGray found her, she told Mrs McGray that she needed to return to London right away because several in viduals, she said, we're attacking her telepathically. This has been Gray was a little skeptical about this obviously, yeah, yeah, but and then but but then she did notice something odd, which is that she and again you don't know if this was inserted into the legend after the fact or what. Supposedly though, she noticed that Neda's shiny silver jewelry had

basically tarnished black like overnight. And now some people, some people have metabolisms and skin discretions such that they do actually tarnish silver, and that well, yeah, it does happen. Doesn't happen overnight? I cannot think of because I looked this up to try and find out what causes that, and it's something Casa doses and I can't think of what it is, but it is. It's acidic, you know,

it's it's acidic sweat basically. And I can tell you as somebody who has something at least a minor Kate, I don't know how long does it take to turn bright silver black. I don't think I've ever turned to black. I mean I always stopped wearing it. It might have been an exaggeration, you know. I'll wear like a sterling silver necklace or a ring or something like that fairly constantly, and it takes, you know, a month or two. Yeah,

it's really seriously tarnished. I think that maybe what happened here is that when she first met Netta fresh off the boat or silver was shiny and then and she just remembered it and being shiny, didn't remember it, didn't notice that much after that. You know, you're living in a kind of cold neighborhood. Yeah, under your shirt. Yeah, it's a cold neighborhood. And it's like, yes, it probably didn't turn black. Ye, I didn't turn dark overnight, and

it probably wasn't actually black. It was probably just darkened. It's very tarnish. Yeah, although you know, I've got to admit that silver does if you let it to get exposed to elements, it will eventually get black. Oh yeah, I found a quarter recently. I mean, this is this

is a weird little little segue to it. But I was wandering on a beach and looked down and went, hey, that's not a rock and picked up what turned out to be a quarter from So it's pure silver, and it was pitch black because it had been in the water for a while and it had just continued to tarnish and tarnish and tarnish, and to the point that I had to rub on the front of the face with my finger for a minute to get the tarnish to go off enough to be able to read it,

because it just it does happen, but it takes a while for things to turn that black. But yeah, no, it does not overnight. So it would either be a lie or super paranormal, right that everything turned black overnight. They don't know that it would be a lie. I wouldn't call it a lie. I would call that a lapse in observation. Yeah, and she didn't. Necessarily, she might have said, you know, I noticed at that point that her silver Chris effects are on her neck and turn

turned really dark. And it didn't say the word overnight. And then somebody else like sort of interpreted it that way. But as happens, things get inserted shocking. Yeah, so she and she might have said something. In the US, she was probably being questioned by the local authorities whoever they were, always said, did you notice anything odd about her appearance? She would have said, well, you know, I did notice

that their silver cross it kind of turned dark. And in a very religious community, that would be if you're very strong, your faith and everything is based upon that, that would be the kind of observation you would think was important to bring forward, especially if she's doing these and I don't I'm not gonna sound like I'm ripping on her, but these kookie things at night that I don't understand. In other words, her trances up all night doing who knows what it's like. He's like, wow, that

lady's really weird. She's yeah, I think there might be some devil's involved. I mean, I'm I'm obviously inferring a lot of stuff. But with that statement, but you know, this could be where her mind was, which is would then prompt her to say, and her silver was extremely darkly tarnished. So anyway, so that's uh, let's let's go back to the story for a sec. So Netta, Netta was packing, packing hastily, as the story goes, and at that point Mrs Gray mentioned to her that, by the way,

it's Sunday. You do realize that fairy doesn't run today. Yeah, Neda was a little upset. But then apparently after a little bit of time by herself in the room, she came out and said that she changed her mind and she was going to stay on the island after all. Did I tell her that she was being psychically attacked? You know? So maybe she successfully beat back the attack she put up a shield ball. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's a little as best super readily. Well, Professor X

does it all the time. Okay, Professor X is a mutant. Well, so okay, all right, you're right, bad bad analogy I'm sorry to all her x Men fans out there and friends. I apologize for waiting Nea and Professor X on the same page. How many how many of those movies that they made, by the way, it doesn't made like dozens were just back to the story, so she said she changed her mind, and then she left to go walking around what she liked to do a lot, and she

never came back. So and shed in the evening. Right, she left in the afternoon, and then supposedly in late afternoon early evening. In some telling of the story, Mrs mcgraig got a little worried about her, and so they started the search then, and other tellings of the story, she wasn't really paying attention, but she wants to check her room in the morning, and she wasn't there, and that's when she got alarmed and searched in. The search began.

Soy the Sunday night or Monday morning, the search began, and they scoured the island, and not till Tuesday did they find her body. Uh So, she was at the south end of the islands, not at the very south tip or anything like that, but towards the south end, wearing only a thin black cloak, which in late November made the local doctor who got to play the role of c. S I and this particular thing he decided

to cause of death was exposure. Just as a question, was Mrs Gray able to say, yeah, that she left the house wearing that or well, that's one of the things I'm a little, a little kind of wondering about. There's no mention. Yeah, that's one of the one of the outsil mysteries here for me is that I'm assuming she left the house fully closed, sure, and then at

some point decided to take it all off. Surely never found her clothes, right, Surely if Mrs McGray was saying, oh, yeah, her silver jewelry had turnished, she would also be like, oh, also, she was naked except for a cloak. She walked out of her birth Yeah. Yeah, and she wasn't wearing her shoes. And certainly if she'd walked out, if you walked out wearing a cloak, then that might be passable because the

cloak is closed. She can't see that she's naked if it was a thin cloak, as long as her headlights aren't on. But she was also found barefoot, so she walked out wearing a cloak but barefoot. That would have raised a few eyebrows. So I'm assuming she went out fully closed and decided to to take it all off at some point later on, but her clothes in her shoes. But there's there's also the possibility that she did leave in just that, just the cloak, and that Mr Mrs

mccraig didn't actually see her leave. But let's say just heard the front door closed, she said, oh, I'm going out by yeah, and shut the door and okay, see you later whatever. And I mean, that's that's a possibility, because that's the weird thing is where where her clothes? That's what I've never been able to figure out. So well, let's just say she left without any of them on, but the cloak, that's consavable. Well, she buried him somewhere.

They just got blown away by the wind. Yeah, you know, yeah? Is there I mean was that she was naked with their naked except for the cloak. She had some scratches on her on her body, and the soles of her feet were kind of chewed up, which would probably happen if you're walking her over rough ground your feet, but not not on your torso she was walking around the moors. I'm not sure how heavy and sharp the brushes. The brush is up there as she's walking around naked, she

could have gotten scratches on her body from just brush. So, by the way, I do want to point out that for anybody who's kind of questioning the cause of death, because the local doctor, he said said it was exposure, exposed, and he also said maybe a heart attack. But yeah, he also was not very skilled at his job and others. He was a local practitioner. He wasn't a mortician, he

wasn't a detailed doctor. He was take this because he put the cause of death somewhere between ten o'clock on Sunday night to think nine am on Tuesday morning, yeah, before she was found. So I mean he's like he's just covering all of his basis. Might have been exposure, she might have had a heart attack, she died in this window. Yeah, there you go, Thank you very much. Essentially, what we're saying is that he gave as much information as anyone in this room could have given him. Exactly

my point. I don't think that was was done well. No, I mean, I I assume that this guy examined the body carefully, just looking for things like signs that she was by like clubbed or stabbed or anything like that, no signs of foul play. Any of us in this room would do the same thing, right, and then we would say, uh, yeah, I mean, this guy has probably seen more dead bodies than we have, so you probably

had a somewhat better better odds of correctly guessing there. No, I'm not disaccounting his abilities as a doctor and his observations to make these kind of guesses, but it is very basic. Yeah, and he was obviously if she was killed by psychic attack, which will get into later, he could probably had no means to detect that. Yeah, and Joe, oh yeah, I know. Okay, now let's jump into theory. Is our favorite part of the show. You guys have any theories, I do, but I'm gonna wait for you. Okay. Well,

I was gonna throw a few out. One is that she was just out wandering, actually got lost, she got confused, hypothermia was setting in, and as we all know, sometimes when you have hypothermia, your brain doesn't not quite working right, just like when we were talking about the the Outlaw Pass, and so that whole thing. You think you're hot, little part of hypothermia. Yeah, yeah, so maybe she was a

little bit confused and started taking off her clothes. And then of course there's a there's the question of that whole cross that's cut into the ground by the daggers and by the way, I wanted to ask about that. How big is this this cross that was carved in I could never find anything that said was it a one ft by two foot cross or an eight foot by six foot cross? Like I can get scale on this stage. I've never gotten in the scale on it either.

I hear that it's a large cross, so I'm assuming it's it's like something like five or six feet something that was big enough for her to lay on. I had the impression that it was kind of like her body was like, you know, it was a symbolism, like of a crucifixion or similar to that. It was it was about the size of her. I got that impression too, But I've never seen anything that's either. But so we don't really know how we three independently and for the

same thing. So perhaps that maybe the or perhaps we just go to the same place every time. My other question and this is why I ask about this is there's this talk about the dagger and the cross in the ground, but you never hear anything about the dirt that the soil or what would be cut up. You know, if I cut this cross in the ground, I, at least from my perspective, I would presume that I would cut it out and then I would roll on the saw or whatever. Top soil is interesting because I thought

it was like just a like two lines. Oh see see what I heard that. I thought she would literally cut the growth off so it was bare dirt. Yeah, but you don't know how much what's an inch? Why anybody to choose to shovel that's trying to dig up any kind of plant life and half an inch an inch deep to try to expose bar dirt? That's not easy work, which might explain like this, this whole thing

about cuts and scrapes. Although let's be fair, in Scotland it's either grass or moss, right, true, But where would that where I never heard anything about this this Let's just say my my direction was correct, well, that we never heard anything about a pile of soil or plant life that had been cast aside for her to lay in this exposed dirt, which is why I think I assumed that it was just like two lines right that like somebody had just done like the line drawing of

a cross under it, just like literally just stabbing the earth and just gouging it. So it's an audible, a noticeable cut in the ground, but it's not open. Yeah, it's also possible to move some turf to have a more well defined cross. And yeah, it sucked it aside and nobody, nobody really I thought it was worth to put into report or anything. Well, and and plus we don't know like weather conditions, like it's Scotland in November,

it was probably raining. There's a lot of different stuff that was probably potentially going on there that could have gotten rid of all that soil anyway, So the cross is like a little bit of a mystery. But it see, it does appear that she cutted herself. And as far as the clothes go, you know, that's still almost still again if it's windy and might have been blown away. And again one of these things could be one of

those little details. Maybe there was a little pile of her clothes right there and it just you know got lost over time. Because I remember this happened eighty five years ago, so that and it's an unsolved mystery, right, I mean that's the other we we often talked about this on the show that like these unsolved mysteries quote unquote, like the telling of them gets more and more fantastical at time goes on and details just like he cares about that, you know, we've got to get some blue

lights in this. Yeah, and missing clothes and like she was naked and there were mysterious scratches on the body, and there was a dude standing right there. Yeah he wasn't wasn't standing right there, he was lurking nearby. Hey yeah. Yeah. So this theory is that for some reason she was out there doing something she got lost and hypothermia, so just like walking around or whatever, and decided to shed some layers and maybe do a little later production or

something like that. Or maybe she was doing some spell that would warm her body, or maybe maybe or maybe this was going to do a spell that would tell her the way home because she was lost, or sent her to London. Oh yeah, maybe that seems that gonna be kind of impossible to get lost in an island's only one mile wide. And four miles long. Well, again I go back to this whole like lack of understanding

of the weather. You know, if it were gray and like super dark and windy, and if she was hypothermic and disoriented and she kind of you know, like awoke into her senses realized crap, like I'm lost and it's cold, and I don't know I'm naked for some reason, and it's it's also unnn fact that people don't are in almost incapable of walking in straight line. So you say that I want to walk there, I'm going. I know if I walk north, I will get to some place.

But instead you walk in a circle. So whether it be a half mile or a uh yards circle, you continue to walk in a circle. Although to be fair, if you know the island is as small it is as it is, you just think, I mean at a like a fair brisk pace. I walk about a twenty minute mile, and most people kind of breast place, especially in those times. So if you just say, okay, well, the circumference of this is like basically four miles, right, So if I just like hug the coast, I will

eventually get back to the village, get back. But if you're freezing cold. You don't want to take the four mile hike. You're going to try and take the half mile shortcut. Yeah, probably true. But but we I think we think we hypothermia pretty well. Another possibility is suicide. Yeah, maybe she just deliberately went out there and thought, you know, I'm gonna hypothermia as ways to go are It's not so bad compared to like say, being eaten by sharks

or being burned alive or something like that. So maybe she wanted to commit suicide and maybe she figured, hey, I'll be buried on Iona and the most sacred of islands. She was all these Scottish kings and she was I mean, I guess even she had a dagger with her right, Yeah. So I mean it's even possible that she initially went out there thinking I'll just follow my dagger. I'll just follow my dagger, and then you know, like cowarded out of the last second. Mighty explain the scratches on her

tour so too. I mean, she was trying to stab the tentative what do they call it? Those? Isn't the hesitat hesitation marks? Yeah, where she's she's trying, Well, I just do a little one hurt. What do you hear these stories about Japanese people committing Harry Carey, you know, stabbing yourself to death with a sword. It's like, how

do you do that? You have to be really why they fall on culturally ingrain I just but that's but you know, it's also why they they the culture says you fall on your sword because once you're starting to pitch forward, you can't twist aside fast enough. Yeah, that's that's the way to do it. Actually, you know, push the sword into yourself. Now you keep get so suicide is a possibility. Now the possibility is psychic attacks. She

was done in by a psychic attack. Who yeah, well the sinister Mouena Mouena Matters, Yeah, sinister, Yeah, her her friend the unfortunately that's right because she has friends with friends with Dion and uh shee accused Moena Matters of murder Netta. Well, I suppose that. I mean again, you know, we don't know why Netta decided, oh I'm going to go to this far reaching island that has some psychic powers. But it might be to get away. It maybe to

like flee. It might have been Yeah, it could have been do you have the problem with the Way to Matters series that she died the year before, thank you, because I didn't want to be like the jerk that poopoo's this whole theory, but this one is the hardest one for me to even try because it never went you never went through Carlos Custodager, I didn't maybe if she could reach beyond the grave, maybe, But then if that's the case, I mean, actually Moyenna when of Matters,

actually had more reason to psychically attack the unfortune yeah than just attack although I don't know how close they were. If like, it would have been worse for Dion to like live with the haunting nous of like her friend's mysterious death. Maybe I don't know why I want to wait until after she died to do with listen, more

psychic powers. You get more psychic powers after you die. Okay, all right, that's so that's get that maybe a possibility next theory, she was mentally disturbed and she just like I thought, wandering around naked in late November would would

be a fun idea. I gotta be honest. I have a couple of friends that I worry about this with that are still like in there somehow, you know, they're almost thirties somehow in there, like Carlos castanea like weird psychic attack phase where they you know, every once in a while I get a text from them that's like being attacked psychically by blah blah blah, and I'm like, wow, really, you actually, like you truly believe that it's not like an attention thing. And I worry sometimes that like wow,

maybe that's like you just are. So this is this is a this is very but this theory is kind of related to the first one. Then, yeah, this is an offshot of the first series. Good a better description of the first one, right, yeah, yeah, Well the first theory is that she was not not mentally to range so much, but the hypothermia cause it was just like, well, okay, I see this thing o. The cause in this case is mental mental illness bringing about I'm clothing herself and

getting a hypothermia. So so I yeah, for me, this theory was for something kind of helps inform theory one, right, It gives a good reason behind why somebody might be out there. But there's there there are indications in the story that this could be right. Her whole. I've got to get off this island. I gotta pack everything now, I gotta go. I'm okay, don't worry about it now, I'm fine. Yeah. Are you sure you're fine? You were

just freaking up? No, I'm fine, It's totally okay. She didn't say whether the Netta puts some tinfoil over her head that might have saw off the psychic attacks. Yeah. Yes, mental disturbance caused her to get naked and die hypothermia. Okay,

next hearing. Maybe she was wanted to do some ritual and the ritual required her to be naked or nearly naked in order to do that, and she at this time was just a little bit too mentally disturbed to understand what a bad idea this was doing it, this was exactly Uh So, maybe she decided that she was going to do a little astral projection, although I had no I know nothing about astro projection. I don't think

you need to be naked to do it. But she decided to cut the cross, lay down, do some astro projection, and her consciousness went out and wanted the universe for a while, and then when it came back and it got home, well, she had expired from hypothermia, So maybe she was doing astral projection, I mean as possible, right, I Mean, they're like so many things to build on this,

right is. But like if she already kind of thought that was a thing, she could have been drunk or like on drugs enough to really believe that and think, well, I have to be naked to do this. I'm just gonna lay down for a minute while I do this, because you know, you don't have to be laying down to do astral projection, but like maybe you're inebriated and being laying down feels better, right, Um, I don't know. And also it wasn't that it wasn't the founder of

um Alpha Omega. He had some sexual scandal happened and that's why he found it Alpha and Omega. Yeah, so the hermetic Order of the New Dawn or whatever. So it's totally possible. I know that it was definitely a thing in a lot of those kind of alternate psychic crazy orders in the twenties that like there was a lot of sexual stuff that went with that. So I guess it is certainly possible that she there was a ritual that she was trying to perform or whatever it

involved that sexual component, you know. I mean, you think about it, if you're a cult leader and you're gonna like try to attract attractive female followers into your whole thing, and you're gonna you're gonna teach them all these rituals. They said, by the way, this requires you to be

completely naked. Like that is one of the most pervasive like just strands and all of the cults that I've ever read about is that, you know, it's like almost always founded by like some thirty or above guy who's always like, oh, yeah, by the way, I get all these fifteen year old wives. Yeah, we're gonna have a lot of sex. It's just part of the religion. It's cool. It's disturbing because they're they're playing off of people who

are very naive, yeah, or or mentally whatever. The branch Davidians don in Waco, you know, the Jim Karash was their cult leader, and that was one of the things. Yeah, you all come and live in the compound and I get to have sex with your wives, And it's like what kind of guy would do that? That was the thing we just talked about the cult last week with

the Monster with twenty one faces. The cults in Japan. Yeah, I can't remember, and I know that he it was like mostly him in the followed him and he was having sex with all of them. I want to be a cult leader, seriously, I mean, not the big part of a lot of cults. And I don't know if Alpha at Omega was that kind of cult or not, But I don't know. I'm not willing to discount the fact that like that could potentially be quote you know, air quote part of that ritual. Yeah, I don't know

that they were. There's not enough I couldn't find enough available information about these guys. Shocking. Yeah, I know it appears that they took the medic the medic physical aspects of things more seriously than a lot of these these really weird little cults like the Branch Davidians or Jones, him Jones, those guys. Yeah, but I can't say what they are up to. Nobody knows, right because that's part

of it. But certainly enough, if you're if you're gonna do a ritual that doesn't hurt to be naked, and so if you're the if you're the cult leader, you're gonna you're gonna say, you know, you're gonna say, like, hey, by the way, this you're required to be naked to do this to this ritual, be three year old young woman who's super attractive. Again, it's required for some very base reasons why that happens. And there it is very disturbing, and I think I'm just gonna leave it at that.

I'm actually gonna move us away from this because I'm really actually I'm a little uncomfortable continuing to repeat this conversation. Let's let's talk about some of your theories. Yeah, actually have two theories that I think both playoff of the last theory that you talked about. No, not no UFOs alright, sobot no, no Scottish yetti. But I have I have two theories here, and this is just based off of things that I read Ninford and then a little bit

of random research that I did. My first my first thought is that I think you touched upon this a little bit, is well, what if she was Devin, you said this one if she's a little high. Okay, Well, at the time that she came the island, and I was reading the accounts about now, they were saying that she really looked terrible kind of sunken eyes, kind of

a bad pallor about her. And we've talked about the fact that you know, maybe she's got that the condition where she's oxidizing the silver a lot, so she could have had what was equated to some kind of internal oregan disorder. Well, at that time, there were a lot of folklore about using heather plants to make teas and polstices from to heal you. It's never been supported anywhere.

In other words, I've done I've looked at it, and they're like, yeah, Nick could maybe do something, but we can't scientifically prove that it does a damn thing for you. But here's the thing. For years and years and years on these islands, people used to make beer out of heather, and they used to only use the fresh new growth tips of the plant because they didn't have hops. That's

what they used to make the fermentation from. But it was common knowledge that you didn't go into the older growth because I guess what was commonplace in the older growth of those plants that the bread mole that we talked about. So I could see where she is using this stuff to try to make yourself feel better, and she gets some of it. I feel, okay, I feel, And then she gets a bad batch and she goes

on a bender, not knowing what's going on. And now she's off, you know, in a in an altered state, And that would explain she's break from reality basically just chewing on plants out there. Well, if she made a pulsterice out of it, which puls this requires heating it up, that would kill it. So I guess she was making a t some kind of talk police that you put on your body, right right, because you gotta kind of make it into a pace, so you gotta heat it

up and break it down. But if you're making it as a t and you're just dipping it in water, it's some of it's gonna survive. So now you're in an altered state. You have a break from reality, and off you go. And so let's say the first thing in the morning, she makes some of that tea, and she's having a bit of a trip, and that's why she wants to get off the island. And then she has some more and she quote unquote evens out and then has more of that bad badge, and now she's

gone on a really bad trip. And suddenly she is out there. Man, that's possible. You would think that Mrs McRae and would I would have noticed her making tea from this stuff and warned her about the possibilities of You would think maybe she wasn't in the kitchen. Maybe she wasn't in the kitchen and so she wasn't paying attention. Uh So, I mean that could explain why she would have gone out there and and died from exposure, because

she is just out, just completely passes out. It's also possible that the other thing that I think could have happened is as agitated. Is I got the impression that she was that day and her again her bad pallor and her physical condition. I mean, they talked about the fact that she couldn't walk more than a couple hundred yards at a time before she had to stop and come back to the house. She couldn't go far afield, which leads me to wonder if she had some kind

of condition. I wouldn't say, like congestive heart failure, but she might have been in a situation where she was getting the beginnings of a stroke. So she's got you know, what is it when you've got the vein that bursts in your brain. I can't think of and embolism. She's got an embolism that's buildings. So she she's losing her energy, and then she has a small stroke. She wigs out.

That's why she wants to leave because she's gone into an altered state again, and then kind of calms down, goes out into the into the landscape, and then has

the major stroke. I mean, if we're having I mean, if we're going to go that route, you know, things like a cute kidney failure or like appendicitis, those things will all render those kind of like san and if you're in that kind of I guess culture of thinking, a psychic attack could be causing those things right where you're like nauseous and you've got a headache, tired, and then you you're able to just kind of calm yourself down because you can, you know, people can talk themselves

down from things like that. You say, okay, okay, I'm fine, I'm just gonna go for a walk. That will make me feel better. You know, for whatever reason, have this break. Take your clothes off because you've got a fever maybe or whatever. It could be so many different year old

again wanted to run in the sea. And you would assume that any I mean even like a doctor, just like a family doctor, should be able to say it was some kind of failure or but but that's that's that's is basing it upon that he was able to examine her when she was alive, which she may never have gone to this guy on the island. It's uh, it's no, there's not a definitive arrival day. So she

supposedly arrived there somewhere in July or August. So let's let's say she arrived there at the first day of August. So it takes to work up to go into a doctor. Almost she had no particular reason that I know of to go see the doctor to begin with. So he may not have had a living symptom to base it upon for whatever malady that it might have beens. Yeah,

and he wasn't. He wasn't set up to do the whole you know, like the autopsy and cut her open and look at her look at her inergery, Yeah, and do toxicology and see if maybe she had some sort of poisoning like you're talking about going on. She he wasn't set up for that okay, so so much for that theory. Theories good, so Devon, well he really just kind of disconnected that one and ch those. I don't remember what I was gonna say, So let's go to Devon. I don't. I guess I don't really have any theory.

I mean, you know, I'm still like just so fresh out of my like again, we've been calling it the Carlos Castel in a phase, right, I can't with certainties say any of these are wrong. Maybe she was actually being psychically attacked. Probably not. I kind of doubt that. I super doubt that. But again, I'm not so far out of that phase where I can't say it's not it's not that bizarre. There was somebody just recently, I

think it was up around Mountain Rainier. Somebody took some LSD some young woman and took off all of her clothes and just headed out into the woods. It had bad It happens all the time. There's so many different rs. I mean, you know, in the twenties, right, so we've got like all this like bad heroin going around like and there, and these drugs have existed for so long. It's a very curious, mysterious death that I have no good theories on. I honestly am just happy to say

I don't understand it, and it's really weird. I don't I don't get it either, you know, like this this, you know, all of none of our theories really addressed the like cross situation. You know, they say, well, I don't know, then maybe she went nuts and did that, right, there's no good for that. None of them really truly addressed the fact that maybe there was a guy like lurking, right,

I mean, it's it's just weird. Yeah, And I really discounted the guy lurking in the black cloak because if you murder somebody or somewhere how involved in her death, and you sort of learn just lurk for two days, days for days until why are you going to Why

don't you go lurk somewhere else? I mean, I guess I generally feel like, you know, there there's in my like storybook version, there's like something missing here right where they were like, oh, also, she happened to have a lover on the island, that's why she was there, and would you would think that would eventually somehow, but it never did. So I don't have a good feeling about this. What's your favorite theory, Well, we can make up another one.

Let's say she was a drug addict and she want there to try to get away from her dealer, her dealer, and then at some point she's going to see some some major or might might it might be that she established a connection on the island just she happens since and then was back back in the throws of addiction. And then one day realizes that she she drops her Violet Loud nem or whatever it is, and breaks in and realize, I'm fresh out, you know, and I've got

to go to London and score some more. And maybe why don't may just be smirched the name of I know, I know, I know is out there. It's totally out there. But then she then she thinks about it. She can't leave anyway, The fairy doesn't go on Sundays, and then she thinks about and thinks, you know, I really need to kick this crap instead of doing that. But then she later on decides, you know what, this just really sucks and I hate my life. I'm going to go

out and take my clothes off and die. So maybe that's thank you happy there is no reason to believe that. By the way, I don't want to be smersed the name of netaporn areo any more theories none whatssoever. So that's the end of the theories. If you have theories of your own, you can always send us an email at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. You can, of course go to our website, which is Thinking Sideways

podcast dot com. Uh. If you're looking to download our shows, of course you probably already know how you get to iTunes. But if you do go to iTunes and get our shows, please comment a rating. We like that, especially good ratings. We really like those. Well, ratings are great because that's how other people find us. Really, ratings of any kind.

I don't care what you do, Yeah, exactly. If you don't have time to get to iTunes, or maybe your house is burned down or whatever, you've got to get us on the fly, you can go to Stitcher and stream us directly from Stitcher. Uh, find us on Facebook. We are on Facebook, so find us, like us, leave some comments. We like that. All right, So concludes another successful mystery solving it Thinking Sideways the Podcast. So so well, yeah, okay, we didn't solve it exactly. We probably we probably, we

probably muddied the water of stuff. But yeah, yeah yeah sometimes sometimes we we know, solve it well rarely, but you know, this time, I don't think we quite Either we solve it or we ruin it. Yeah, we ruined it. Okay, Well, I think we bumped the lurking guy in the black cloak. Yeah. I think we pretty much by just ignoring the fact that he was the blue lights. We just ignored the blue lights. We paid attention to the blue did we, Yeah, we said, oh yeah, more blue lights. They're always showing

up in these things. Have you noticed that? So that's it for this week, folks. I hope you enjoyed the episode and be sure to tune in next week for another exciting unsolved mystery here at Thinking Sideways. Bye bye, bye guys, Bye