Thinking Sideways: Michael Meiring—Treasure Hunter or Terrorist?

deal and we really look forward to seeing you guys there. Um, I know it sounds like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. I really want to meet you guys and have fun with you, guys. Crime con dot Com promo code sideways. Yeah, hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe Joint as always, by and Steve and uh. This week it's time for another fascinating mystery. We're going to talk about what they call in the Philippines. See

Michael my Ring Mystery. Michael Myering was a shadowy person and uh, well, nobody knows exactly what he was or because he claimed to be a treasure hunter. Some people thought he might have been something else, like maybe a terrorist or a CIA operative. Well, we'll tell you everything you need to know and you can make up your own mind. Well, by the way, I want to quick aside, I want to thank Landon who suggested this. Thanks dude, appreciate it if you are a dude. By the way,

that anyway, but thanks Landing. So let me let's start from the beginning here. The date was May sixteen, two thousand two. So, yeah, there's an old turn of the century story. Uh. Yeah, remember the turn of the century. Yeah, things are a lot different. Cars looked a little different. Hair was longer or maybe shorter. I don't remember it. Both. Cellphones was different. Yeah, hair, it was different. Cell phones remember cellphones that they were big? Uh they were big.

This started kind of big, okay. Um. So May sixteen, two thousand two, there was an explosion in room three oh five at the Evergreen Hotel in Davo. Mend to now the Philippines. So as you know, men and now is that big island at the south end of the archipelago that is the Philippines. Uh, and it was a big city there, and uh, there have been other terrorist bombings which had recently been taking place across the Philippines. Uh, and there was a big one just three weeks before.

They killed fifteen people wounded fifty five. So a while bombing going on, people are a little bit on edge, understandably, So there's an explosion in room three oh five at the hotel was occupied by a band named Michael Terrence my Ring, who was an American oncologist that's a cancer doctor for those who them. Now. He'd been a regular guest at this hotel for the past eight to ten years.

He's been spending a lot of time in the Philippines, says the early nineteen nineties, and on his most recent visit, he checked into the Evergreen Hotel December fourteen, two thousand one. Several months before that's yeah, it's like six months before. Four months before, yeah, I guess six months. He seemed to frequent the same hotels. There was I think it was like three different hotels that he liked to stay at,

depending on where he was. Yeah, and he spent like somewhere from six to eight months a year in the Philippines, so he was a regular at these places. I'm surprised he didn't try to find time shares. I was just going to even just buy a house, yeah, rent an apartment, yeah, for the exchange rate from what I know, the exchange rate in the Philippines. Like you can it doesn't take very much American dollars to live like a king in the Philippines. So I don't know why buiep. I mean,

you can hire a housekeeper for pretty cheap there. Oh, I'm just I'm guessing maybe he just decided it was easier not to and why he was doing it this way might have been a commitment fobe. Yeah, yeah, it might have been. It might have been one of these people like my dad was kind of this way. He just didn't want to buy into real estate because he was sure the bubble was going to burst. My dad was totally right about that. He was just stopped by

several decades. I mean, if you maintain that for long enough, it will eventually be true. Oh, totally true. Yeah. Well, whatever the reasons he was staying at this hotel. Uh, so, of course there had been a big kaboom. The police, paramedics show up. They found that Myering was pretty mangled. His legs were really badly mangled. Unfortunately they had to be amputated. So they were amputated because some of the stories just talked about how they were he was wounded

and messed up. Yeah. Once the one version I read that only one leg was amputated, but most, mostly the more authoritative ones like in the Manila Times, etcetera, said both legs were amputad. Okay, so we'll go with that, all right. I just want to clarify because I was I was never sure. No, it is hard to tell. Was it just his legs that were injured or was the rest of his body injured. He got yeah, some some big third degree burns over a lot of the

rest of his body. So pretty much what you would expect by somebody being hot off guard by their room exploding. Uh yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So he was taken to the Davo Doctors Hospital, which is where his legs were amputated. But before he lost consciousness, he told police that somebody had lobbed a grenade into his room. But then later on with the police, bomb experts took a close look

at the scene. Well, the evidence to them looked like the blast was from a bomb and not a grenade, and Miring had had two metal boxes that he kept in his room, and it looked like the bomb had actually been inside one of those boxes. So I'm curious, right, And but here's where the story thickens a little bit. While my Ring was in the hospital in Davos and FBI agents came by to ask him some questions. This

is where it gets controversial. According to some sources, local police who were there guarding Meyring tried to stop the FBI from getting into his room, but the FBI guy, the FBI guys apparently were kind of bullying and they just basically insisted on going in and talking to him. Uh. And then they took my Ring out of the hospital, flew into another hospital in Manila, which is of course at the far other end of the Philippines, of course,

of course, yeah, yeah. And then after I don't know, I'm not sure exactly when this happened, he Ring left the country. Apparently, according to some people, the FBI spirit Admiring out of the Philippines and back to the U S. Apparently he was taken to San Diego. Ostensibly, to quote a famous podcaster person, uh, it was for more advanced

treatments than what you could get in the Philippines. So here's the But Okay, when I read this stuff about this, and I was reading the stuff that, oh, gosh, which US government organs? I want to say it's the State Department, but it probably is. And whoever it was, they were like, oh yeah, no, they went there with police officers, local police officers in tow to comply with the rules, like they they you know, they're accounting of it is that they followed the book and the locals were with them.

And the US government says yeah as well. And so there's a there's a lot of conflicting accounts in this one. I think they probably they did. They did obey the rules. You know, the FBI that says that they had a liaison with the Philippine National Police. They totally cooperated and coordinated with them. So that's what that's how they put it. Um not to disparage the Philippine police is something you

always say before you're gonna disparase someone exactly. But you know, I in my talkings with people from the Philippines, which I've had actually haven't had extensive talkings with people from the Philippines, um most of their citizens generally feel like the police are pretty corrupt and it doesn't take very

much to get them to do what you want. So you know, whether or not the FBI or you know, the US officials were complying, or they had paid them off, or maybe they hadn't paid them off, and so the police were like, hey, you didn't follow a protocol, you didn't pay us off. What's going on? And you know, later reported that they had had been done without their consent. There's just so much to not know about it. Yeah, there is. That's just that's there's once again something that

we said for impartial, law abiding law enforcement. And I'll just add that if I had gotten my legs blown off and third degree burns all over my body in a foreign country, I would be super thankful for my government coming and taking me home. Yeah, that's a good point, you know. So you know, it's a whole question. The whole question here is not so much that they did it,

but why they did it. You could ask for it. Yeah, it might have been um but but back to the bomb scene, it looked like the bomb, according to the

Philippine police, was mostly most likely an improvised type. Initially, they concluded dynamite, but that they decided it was some other higher tech explosive like ammoni nitrate, which had ammonium nitratee in if they found traces of ammonium nitride, isn't that the same thing that was in Oklahoma City in the same kind of bomb essentially, Yeah, I mean that's that's one way to get your ammonium nitrate. You don't have to use fertilized they did there. You can actually

get more purified versions of it. But yeah, you can bind your ammonium nitrate with some fuel oil vaida you've got a nice unstable explosive. My My reason for saying it was kind of like I was thinking that it had to be something akin to a fertilizer bomb. Is he is in the Philippines, and fertilizer is probably easy to get. Ahold of the higher tech stuff maybe not so much. Yeah, and there are and this is the

whole range. You can improvise something with fertilizer and diesel or there's some more higher tech stuff that also uses his ammonium nitrate, same kind of similar thing or refined process and it's a it's a better explosive. But you know, but as far as what he had there, was it improvised or was it you know, high tech stuff. I'm not totally sure, but of course, uh, if Myron did have himself a bomb, which appeared that he did, that's

illegal in the Philippines. Even so that made him kind of a wanted man of course at this but by this point he's out of the Philippines. They wanted him back. They they actually filed charges against him in the the Philippines, but the U. S Government did nothing to return him. Instead, Byron lives out the rest of his days here in the US, maybe at his hometown of out of Mesa, California, although there was one report that he'd been seeing in Texas.

But it doesn't really matter because apparently he's died since I think he died in two thousand twelve, because I believe he was about sixty six when this bombing happened. So you know, seventy six, you know, plus take off a couple of years for having your body burned and you're blown off, you know, you know, so that's not outrageous. The controversy didn't die. Two weeks after the bombing, the mayor of Davo Rodrigo dore tab a guy who likes

to scream. Yeah, he's kind of he's he's kind of bombastic, I would say the one way of putting it. He reminds me of another certain politician in our country a little bit, but a lot worse in my opinion. Yeah, well, I'm talking to me. I'm gonna make judgments. Yeah. But he went public and blasted the U. S Government for taking my Ring out of the country. He accused of see I of conducting a false flag operation in the Philippines.

Explain to folks, what's the false flag operation? Yeah? A false flag is where you uh commit some sort of usually some sort of a crime or an operation, but you make it look like some other country has done it. So the idea is here would be like, well, okay, we'll playing some bombs, will blame it on some Muslim separatist group, and then if we do that in public opinion and the Philippines will turn against these guys, and then the national government will adopt a policy that's more

anti Muslim, which is well engineering okay. And so in this telling, my Ring was an agent of the CIA. He was running this operation, which is why the US got him out. Of the country so quickly DETERCTI was very angry about this situation. He threatened unspecified violence towards the FBI if he they ever came back to Dabo again. I know he's that's the kind of guy he is. Actually, he's actually he actually claims to have killed people in his drug wards. This is the same guy he's obviously

president of the Philippines today. If you don't know that he does. He just claim in the past to have actually summarily executed people who were caught with drugs. Oh yeah, I know they had. I can't remember who it is. Some humans rights group is totally in arms because you get caught with drugs, essentially they're they're just taking you out. And the number of deaths capital punishment style deaths had just skyrocket. And once he came into office, like to

an absurd rate. Well, it began long before he was president. I mean, when he was mayor of Dabo, he cleaned up quote unquote the situation down there, and the same thing happened. They were they were what they called death squads. At least there were some accusations that there were death squads killing people outright all over the place then, and and apparently the Philippine people liked his style of after

they went ahead and made him president. You know, um, so whatever, you know, they're they're tied up to elect whoever they want. But this might explain while U. S. Philippines relations have gone downhill. If this particular incident is what sour Detarty so much on the United States and our relationship with the Philippines. Um, I'm not sure if it's not. Maybe he was already kind of anti American and this was just an excuse. I don't know, and

I don't know when he's made his speeches. Was May thirty, two thousand to just two weeks after the explosion. I don't know if he had any any special knowledge of the situation or if he had just been reading the newspapers like everybody else. But he wasn't mad. I mean you read that article, right, did he strike you as angry? He strikes me as angry constantly. Well, there's that. That's

that's why he's yeah. But but that's why this is still controversial and still a mystery because who exactly was Michael Myering and just what exactly was he up to? So that's what we're going to figure out here. Ostensibly there, I know, he was a citizen of South Africa who emigrated to the U S. And was naturalized towards the end of the apartheid era. As I said before, he

was not colleges. He was Caucasian, Yeah, he was. And supposedly he was affiliated with the African National Congress, although I'm not too sure about that. I mean, there's in this story you read that he was affiliated with all kinds of groups. That's I'm sure you're aware, very disparate groups. I would say he's also been accused of being affiliated with another group of people who are like white supremacists and Nazis back in the U S. Which is aththetical

the whole African National Congress thing. What do you think about it? But there is one story that was told by as a friend of his name David Hawthorne, who said that my Ring told him once that he'd given a box of old US federal notes to the South African government after apartheime. So this is after Nelson Mandela became president of South Africa. He made them a gift of this box of notes had, according to my Iring, five million dollars in it. I know a lot of money,

that's whole bank notes. I don't know how big the denominations were. I did a little checking, and I know back on the day they used to print bills as large as ten thousand dollars and denominations. Wait, where where's my ring saying he got the money from? Well, that's a little hazy. This is he's a get a treasure hunter, because I see you've got information here about dates and types of bills, and so I'm trying to figure out it's not like he just went down to the bank

and made a cash withdrawal. No, no, got at all, not at all. These were These were old bank notes. Of course, since I don't I'm not sure what the biggest the biggest denomination is today's a five d. They're still making it. They're still making a five dollar bill, right, I'm not sure I do. None of us are rich enough to know that. But just opened my wallet. I know it's But but again, back in the day, they used to make him a lot bigger. Ten thousand bush

was the biggest one. Yeah, So assuming that this box with five million bucks in it was in ten thousand dollars, denominations. My back of the envelope calculation is that that would be a hundred ten pounds. Well that's a lot of bucks, and of course you know it's you know, yeah, My calculation is that if if it was a hundred dollar bills, it would weigh a little over a ton. Soy box. But asked as for where he got these, well, this is the Philippines, you know, ohmishly just gold and all

that stuff. You pronounced it right this time, I don't know, but this is this box was one of twelve, which would mean about six billion dollars. Again, as you ask where did you get it? Well, it could have been from ships, I mean because my ron of course was looking for yamash she is gold. And uh if what he said about those twelve boxes of cash, it's true

that it sounds like he found part of it. Because as they all know, the Japanese and World War two and before World War two were looting East Asia of everything. They would go to the banks and I'm sure carry away all the bank notes. They all everybody's jewelry, their silver candelabra and you know, their rings and gold coins, silver coins, everything, jewels, And that was Yamashita's gold and supposedly just about all of it wound up in the Philippines.

And we've actually covered that story, talked about this story, yeah years ago, actually was it was a couple of years ago. Yeah. Uh. And of course, as if you listen to that episodes, you know, towards the end of the war, there was some efforts to transport all that stuff back to Japan because it did look like the Philippines were going to fall to the to the Allies, and so, uh, it had to be transported back to Japan.

So what to set it on? Walships and submarines of course, and they're apparently around Menta now there are a lot of sunken ships and submarines, so it's kind of uh worth taking a look at them, I suppose. So that might be where I found it. If they if they got a ship or something that's got these crates of cash, and he's found this thing and salvage these crates. Okay, that could be one potential source of it, or maybe he was just b sing. I don't know, it could

be that too. In fact, I'm kind of betting on that. But yeah, that would be sealed really well, to have survived underwater, not necessarily. My understanding about the way things work is underwater is that you can leave it down there as long as you want. It's the process when you bring it back to the surface. You've got to manage that process kind of carefully. Sinization and separation and drying is time consumer expensive. Otherwise it just it turns

to dust. Yeah, and so that's why I'm that's why I'm curious about that part. But well, it might have been something else too. I mean, there's not just on ships. It could have been buried in a a cave somewhere. Yeah. It also could have explained why maybe you know, maybe he knew where it was. He had you know, a friend who was guarding it, lived on a boat above it or something like that. He brought you know, one box up at a time. Yeah, and it was a

very slow process. It would explain why he was staying at kind of a crappy hotel. Actually have the money yet, you know, Okay, I can behind that. Yeah, maybe that's it. I don't know, um, but that's our that's so far that the only treasure we know for sure that he found it. We're pretty sure he didn't actually find that he also had supposed to supposedly partnered up with the Manila based group of people. That's you see a lot

of this in a story. There's this shadowy group of people who aren't exactly named, and you don't exactly find out. But these are the ones that I said had links to this white supremacist group back in the US and also to the neo Nazi Party of the United States. And I'm not sure why he joined up with these people. Um it might be needed capital, or maybe they just had information that they needed, or maybe they just were like the mob and they just muscled in on the operation.

Maybe they were the only ones who know how to desalinate money. They could be that too. They might have had some skills that didn't get a lot of experience. Well, there was you know, another thing, there was some some some messages between him and his demolition experts where the demolition experts was talking about him the handling this situation.

He described what sounds to me like the guy was talking about maybe unexploded dealing with unexploded ordinance, which if you're salvaging a warship that's sunken, there's probably gonna be some bombs in our chillery shows and stuff like that on board of that ship. Hell, to this day, they're still finding minds in Britain in backyards. But yeah, but unexploded bombs, Oh yeah, they find them all the time, I mean still and uh, and so you've gotta be

real careful with that stuff, obviously. According to the same guy I mentioned, David Hawthorne before it was a friend of my Rings. My Ring was afraid of his new partners, these shadowy Minila based people. He said to Hawthorne that his life was in danger, and that's my Ring's life, and that it had something to do with the treasure. That kind of vague stuff. But so the question, of course is why didn't he leave the country. Well, apparently wanted you get a stranger before he left the country.

Maybe too, I don't know, Yeah, me too. Yeah, I suppose i'd risk my life for that kind of cash and why not. Yeah I probably would, or at risk somebody's life. Yeah, yeah, definitely definitely your life, for sure, I know you would. That's that's okay, I don't mind. But it doesn't make sense though, what's that this this whole he's recovering all of this treasure, because why he

was he giving it away? Well, that's it. I mean, why would you if you've only recovered one crate of cash and turn around and you give it to Nelson Mandela. I'm sorry that it was a great guy, by the way, deserved it. But if it's all your money, you're operating capital, that's a problem. Does not make a lot of sense to me either. I'm sorry. I'm a selfish guy. I would keep it for me. Of course, maybe it was a bad batch. You know, we brought this up wrong

and it's it's all turned to crap. So I'm gonna generously give it to some of the else maybe look at all this. Yeah, yeah, so that's when he's supposedly doing. He's looking for treasure and came back, like I said to Dabo in mid December two thousand one, and uh, as I said before, he always did. At the ever Being hotel. When he showed up the last time I checked in, he brought these two large metal boxes with him.

When we're talking large, I don't know how large. Bigger than a bread box, a little bigger than a bread box, I think, but still smaller than a refrigerator. Still big enough or small enough that somebody could carry it. Yeah, I think so, Yeah, they were. I got the impression that he kept files in there, like like information on it was like bankers boxes. I'm thinking about that size, but I've never seen a picture of them, so I can't tell you. Actually, they kind of got blown up anyway.

So yeah, but these were padlocked, and they were He told three different hotel employees that the boxes should not be touched, not at all. These must have been the room cleaners, and apparently he said that to them repeatedly, said hey, whatever you do, don't touch those boxes. Don't even touch them. And and actually I think that this is not a rumor because these three people actually signed

AFFI David stating this. So and that's probably one of the few solid pieces of information we've got to work with here. So there's something about them boxes that was important. Other than that, we don't know much about what he

was doing. My Ring was busted about a week before the bomb went off for passing counterfeit US cash and as a result of this, his hotel room was searched by police, and in another telling the story, Philippine intelligence had an eyem because they were suspicious because he kept bringing in these metal boxes into his hotel, so so there were a lot more. I don't know if he was bringing them and then taking him out and bringing them back or what they were, like the equivalent of

his briefcases. Yeah, he didn't have enough. I don't think more than two at a time, and they were probably the same ones. But maybe he was swapping him. But but again, we don't know that this is true either that either the part about his arrest or them, well, part about him getting caught with the counterfeits and the police coming by and looking over his place apparently is true. That seems to be documented, but I'm not a hundred

percent even sure about even that. And then I said Doty did complain about the search because apparently Michael Myering was not totally operative when the police showed up the searches room. Most people aren't, though, yeah, I wouldn't be. Well, yeah, well, they searches room. Apparently they didn't find the steel boxes,

so he must have booed them. He might have moved into the bathroom because apparently he wouldn't let the police search the bathroom when the police expressed an interest in the bathroom he said, no, you can't go in there. It's out of order. I've got a red north Face bag in there. Yeah. Well the corps said it, and you can't go in Yeah. I love I love it chili last night. You don't want to go in there. It's out of order. Yeah, I know whatever. Whatever. Apparently

that maybe he slipped in somebody. I don't know, but I do know where I'm keeping my murder weapons and all my contraband. I'm keeping it in my bathroom. Yeah, of course, at least if I'm living in the Philippines. And as we all know, about a week after that, he was nearly killed in that explosion in his room. Uh. Some of the things they found in the wreckage, besides bits and pieces of the bomb, uh, they also found some pieces of old U s currency, kind of like

those old banknotes we were talking about. Was there all? This is? This is where I want to ask a question about counterfeit money, because I thought that counterfeit cash or remnants of counterfeit cash had also been found in the room post explosion. Am I correcting that? Or am I there's some accounts about that it was red remnants of account Okay, again, the reporting on this one is just so slapdash. Uh. They also found an ID card

from the Moral National Liberation Front AC. Sure you've heard of those guys, If we haven't, well, if you haven't, well, the MML office a group that's they're part of the Muslim separatist movement in the Philippines. Okay, Yeah, so they're as a group that's part of the Muslim separatist movement in the Philippines. This ID card had Michael Mariray's name and photograph on it, along with the birthday September seven, teenth, nine five, which would make him about sixty six when

he got blown up. And what was he doing with that card? Do you ask? Well, I don't know. Well, my question is why do they even make ID cards that I don't know either. That's a good question, isn't it. Isn't it kind of like a class fed as a terrorist organization? Well, they're not. They weren't. They weren't covert. Yeah, they weren't as extreme as some of the other organizations.

Like there's a few others like another ABUSA is another group that's sort of advocating for a separate Muslim state in the Philippines and they are classified as a terrorist organization because well, they use a lot of violence for one thing, and they're advocating actual separatism, and that's true re estate and everything. There's a lot of a lot of acronyms things in this story. So sorry, I didn't mean to say that they were terrorists, but but I

I still don't understand necessarily why. Yeah. They Well, actually the government signed a peace agreement with the separatists, and I think and they establish essentially established gave them some limited regional autonomy. I see, and uh, and so they were more or less it was probably the equivalent of, you know, kind of like a passport to get into their territory. Well it might it might have been a way to, yeah, to be in the territory at least unmolested,

you know, travel. You know, this certifies that, you know, the local government knows you're there and it's okay. Yeah, they're equivalent of the t s A has said, this guy's fine, he's good, let him in and out and as he pleases. That could be what it was, And I'm not really sure he could have just gone out of the local quickie. Martin got himself a fake I d I don't know. But but but also besides this, this did raise a few eyebrows, of course, but apparently

this came out in the press. Apparently my Ring had some shitty connections to some other groups as well. According to the Middle of Times, he had ties with of course, all sorts of government officials in Minda now, which is where Davo is of course, and also the Philippine National Police. It was a kind of like their FBI, I guess, uh. And of course the MNL, as I said, but also the MILF, the m I l L, the m I

l F, which is the Moral Islamic Liberation Front. They like the MLF, but they're they're actually more religious versus secular. And of course obviously I have as I said, we are hardcore. These guys are affiliated with ISIS considered the Filipino chapter of ISIS uh. And of course also the New People's Arming, which is the communist guy that the communist insurgency in the Philippines. So all these different things,

it's like alphabet soup. And I would have never guessed that the Philippines was such a hotbed of activity with all these different organizations fighting for control. Yeah, it kind of is, and it feels very nineteen fifties nineteen sixties to me with all of this, all of these groups battling for control. Aren't the Philippines pretty strategic? They're like a pretty good spot to be if you want to do anything in the world, Right, Yeah, they're kind of are.

They're down there close to all the shipping lanes and you know, so in East Asia and all these things. That's why we have this relationship with us and with them. I mean, it's because you know, they're they're valuable allies in other ways, but also they're just a great land based to base our fighters and our ships and everything else.

So yeah, it's kind of a key strategic area. So yeah, and this is one of the reasons I kind of questioned the false flag operation because it's like, you know, okay, so US we're gonna go in there, We're gonna plant some bombs, We're gonna just stir up this hornet's nest even more. Now, is that really a good idea in a place like this place where you want to have a foothold a place where you know, do you really

want to stir that hornet's nest anymore? But maybe I will talk about that a little bit more to the theories. But as it's pretty obvious so and not all these groups that he's supposedly had all these shadowy ties to are necessarily compatible. Uh. And also none of these connections was really well documented. They're just basically hearsay, loose talk that's printed in the paper. So I have no idea.

If it's true he was really seriously connected to all these groups, then this mystery may be significant, especially when you consider the potential possible involvement of the U. S. Government. The question is is we don't know if any of this stuff is really true. You have to be kind of a mastermind level negotiator to have INDs and friendships with all of these groups and not have them all mad at him for being associated with the others, you

know what I mean? Uh? Well, I mean, and it could have been something that's obviously maybe he had contacts with them in order. Well, I'm going to be like, this is territory that you guys kind of considered to be your territory, So I'm going to be looking for sucking treasure kind of a very think is yours. So I just want to know who to bribe, making sure he's not trespassing, Yeah, making sure just sort of want

to clear out with the locals. It could have been as simple as that, And maybe he did have some sort of contacts along those those lines, maybe because I'm sure in some of these countries, I'm sure we would look at it as well. I want to look for sucking treasure out the U. S. Coast. I'll talk to the U. S. Government about it, and that's that. Well, it doesn't work that way in the rest of the

world when there's seven organizations claiming the same hunker ground. Yeah, it turns out even in America, it doesn't always work that way, you know, they really doesn't. Actually, just in the federal government itself, you'll probably have to negotiate with seventeen other organisms and then you probably you know, state in local governments as well, and then some other things too, and probably you and probably any probably some local Indian tribes and you know who knows. But yeah, So what

exactly was my Michael Myering up to? That is why we call this is a Michael Myering mystery. That's what it's called. In the Philippines. As I said, was he just looking for Yamashita's gold or was he really working for the CIA or with some terror risk groups or was he a master bombmaker or was he just a mule or maybe a handler for covert sources and what was he doing there? That's our story. Now it's time

for some theories, all right. Theory number one, Michael Myrin was a CIA agent part of a false flag operation, as do tear Take claims. I think we kind of covered this a little bit, well a little bit, yeah, of course, you know was as we know, the Abbi morxteriously showed up. They flew him out of Davo three days after the explosion, and later on you get him out of the country and they allowed him to live.

I'm molested in the United States for years afterwards. Right, as a citizen, even a naturalized citizen, is still a citizen. He's still a citizen. I still got rights. And so yeah, they didn't raise a finger to do anything about him or send him back to the Philippines to face justice. It might have been a good reason for well, yeah, I was gonna say that the Philippines justice maybe is not percent in line with what like you would think

American justice, maybe especially in these days human rights violations. Yeah, well, especially these days, you know, with all the death squads you keep hearing about, you know, and uh. But of course, on the other hand, myring was a US citizen who've been injured in something that looked like a terrorist bombing. And you forget this is only months after Night eleven, right, Yeah, So, like I said, I would assume that my government would come get me. You would assume that they would at

least come in and ask a few questions. Right, yeah, that's so that's why the FBI showed up and uh, and and showing up at the hospital too, doesn't seem too outrageous to me. And as far as moving him to the hospital Manila, well, one of the reasons apparently is a hospital and Dabo was not an approved provider under under Miring's insurance. Oh yeah, you don't want to be out of network when you've got a catastrophic injuries that I would imagine like that that you know, spending

a bunch of time in the burning, it's probably very spending. Yeah. Yeah. It could also be that Manila hospital maybe had a better burning. It might be that the hospital back in San Diego had an even better burn unite. Likely yeah, yeah, But according to the US ambassador who gave an interview, I think in two thousand five or some time, the movie was made on the advice of his doctors and Dabo. The master also said the local police at that time

it actually showed no interest in Miiring. No matter what do Terrte is actually saying. All that stuff really showed up in the press later. This is again according to the ambassador, it wasn't happening at the time. This just showed up in the press later. It's kind of a snowball. Longer the story goes on, the bigger it gets. Yeah, of course, what a big a big name like de Tarty,

it gets involved in it. Then it gets bigger still because that's a that's a news story in and of itself, and all that stuff gets recycled again through the news cycle. And there might have been an ulterior motive too. Maybe the embassy felt that if he was suspected of wrongdoing or lawbreaking, that it would be best to get him out of Dabo and away from du Terte, because, let's face it, his his due process. His consideration for the

idea of due process is not very strong. I was going to say, his burden of proof seems way it does, and so maybe that's what it was. And they felt that he'd get better do process somewhere else in the Philippines. And of course they couldn't publicly say that, and that's not his athlete that kind of thing. It's not diplomatic to say that sort of really, but as far as also, but then there's that whole thing about getting him out

of the country. And again I saw this in an interview with the U. S Ambassador's name is France's uh Rickie alone, you're the Italian here, Devon, what do you think? Okay, that was in the minda news. I guess that's shut from Minta. Now. The ambassador said that my Ring actually left the Philippines in a bow board way. He was stamped out by the Bureau of Immigration. Those are the guys at the airport. I don't know if you've been to the countries where you have to be stamped out.

Some of them you have to be stamped out and they stamp you in and out. They do, and they're the guys that they checked. They check the list to make sure that you're on the do not let them leave lists. You know you're not on that list, And yeah, they check to make sure you're not on that list. And according to the ambassador, the authorities stamped them out and had no issue with him leaving the country. I can't imagine, right, You've got a guy on a stretcher

or something. He's got no legs, bandaged that from recent amputation. His body is totally wrapped up because he's got third degree burns everywhere, he's you know, drugged up, and you're like, we need to do an interview with this guy for business or pleasure. Yeah, yeah, I think you're going to stamp him out probably probably you know, let him be

somebody else's you know, doctor expenses. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But yeah, So apparently the charges weren't filed until after he had left, or if they were filed before he had left, apparently, and this happens a lot in the government. I don't know what's like in the Philippines. Often one hand doesn't

know what the other hand is doing. May well be that they just hadn't quite got a run and notifying the guys at the airport that this guy was not supposed to leave the country, or maybe somebody just got bribed. I don't know. Apparently, the Philippine government didn't actually officially notify the US government of these charges against Michael Myering until January two thousand five. Wait, wait when did the

explosion take place? And May two thousand two, almost three years later, they they finally notified because there was a lot of stuff in the papers. It was a big controversy. But as far as I guess, as far as the government goes, they can't just say, hey, you know, the US citizen, we're reading some bad stuff about you in the papers in the Philippines, so we're gonna put you on the next plane, and you've got you better go back there and sort that stuff out. That's not the

way it works, really. Yeah, And it's hard to tell, you know, I don't. I couldn't tell, but maybe you guys could. What the status of his health was for the remainder of his life and injuries like that, sometimes you can just be in bad health until the end. I mean, he didn't live too terribly. I mean it was ten years longer or something like that. I have heard. Also alternatively he died in two thousand six and two thousand tens yeah, he could have died, so he essentially

fell off the radar. And so I can imagine, you know, also that like, you know, unless you can really prove that this citizen of the United States is really guilty of something, we're not gonna send him. You know, I'm not going to get him on a plane for all this emotional stress. That's ridiculous. Yeah and so so, and it's gonna have a physical toll on him. Oh yeah, definitely, flying flying from the US clear that side of the world, it does take a toll on even if you're healthy,

that long plane flight. Oh my god. Yeah. So that's These are some of the reasons I'm a little skeptical about this whole CIA shadowy US government involvement sort of thing. Another problem I have with this idea is just the way admiring what about things. I mean, he kept a bomb in his frigging hotel room. It does not make a lot of sense because I saw not only in safe, but it's not good operational security. For one thing, it's

very damning evidence. If you get caught has been all these bombings and suddenly you're caught with a bomb that doesn't look good. Yeah, and so I can't believe that somebody who's with the CIA would do something that ridiculous. Also, you know, it's unclear what would have set it off if it were just so unstable. But that's another good reason to not keep a bomb in your room, is that it might go off and you might lose your legs.

That's a good reason. And well, the other thing is that age CIA agents, if he was, don't go around telling people their CIA agents, which he did. Was he said it was they were Christians and christ in Action or something what it stood for. No, no, no salt would do you know what? That's just like those guys who are the FBI shirts the female body inspector, the same thing, and they're like, oh yeah, I'm in the FBI, Like Chris, Yeah, it's the same. I need to get

me one of them. No, well, actually, joke you like to get punched in the face because that might happen. Yeah. And the other thing I really kind of questioned about this. If he was a super secret agent with bomb bomb making materials in his room, he went out of his way to call attention to those boxes to at least three hotel employees, which also doesn't seem like a breadcast.

What you're really doing is you're really letting those guys know that there's either something dangerous or something really really valuable inside those boxes, which guys kind of increases the likelihood they're gonna get stolen. You to distract people or divert people from your thing of important not pointed out. Yeah, so that that kind of flies in the face of reason to keep secret stuff in your room to begin with, but then also to call so much attention to it

just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And then and then last of all, of course, what was the purpose? As I already said, you know, the purpose was to genna public antagonism towards certain groups. Well maybe, but it doesn't make any sense though. Well, yeah, like we said, if if the US wants to be there, doesn't make any sense to just get everybody hot under the collar and and try and tip over whatever regimes

are in place. Because I disagree with that. Yeah, yeah, I feel like a really great way to destabilize an area is to really bring the heat on a bunch of you know, get a bunch of organizations really really mad at each other, and then somehow come in and say like, whoa, well, we're peacekeepers. Let's let's talk about

this and bring it back down. Get that going. That's a great it's a great theory and great I like that idea, except I don't think we would be accepted as an honest broker in the Philips from Oh No, I absolutely agree with that. I'm just saying as a general theory of coming into a place like we've done that other places. I know we've done that a lot, But what I'm saying is that it doesn't appear that

we would get any benefit from doing that. Yeah, it's it's well, it's one of those things in this particular location, it's one of the well, it's one of those things too, where unforeseen consequences and all that. You go, you go stare on the pot like that things might turn out the way you want to, but there's a lot of variables and things might turn out way way worse than you want them to be, so you know, probably best

to keep your hands off. So again, I'm not saying this is impossible, but I really have a hard time buying this theory. I would be wholeheartedly being this. Okay, see, I see, I operated we're gonna rule that out. Okay, what else? Uh? Next theory number two, he was a freelance terrorist doing it for his own reason, or maybe he was under the pay of some terrorist group which would name some of these things. I really don't see a motive except for maybe sheer union bomb er fun.

Maybe just maybe he liked to do this kind of thing, although it seems like got to be smart to carry out a bombing campaign like in your own home country where you blend in a lot better, you know, I mean it does you know, unless Michael Myron really hated Filipinos and he really wanted to blow a lot of Filipinos up. Maybe that was saying it's kind of a

racist action. Could be that it's part Yeah, maybe maybe some Filipino was, you know, like like beat up his dad when he was a kid and he's hated him ever since. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. Yeah, that's that's stretching. Well it is. And also there's lots of if you want to stay in the US, there's lots of Filipinos living here, so there wouldn't mean a shortage of targets really. So as far as him doing it for his own reasons. I can't really see that

working for some shadowy group. There was a lot of shadowy groups there, but really, why would they hire him. I mean, he didn't have any special skills as far as I know, unless it wasn't a retired spy now and he didn't have judgment. What I see it is his bomb making skills were not that fat. Well he blew himself up. Yeah, yeah, And so the only thing, the only thing I could see where he would be useful to them would be as a useful idiot. And there are such people out there. Maybe he was the

useful idiots. Guys are really into your cause. What could I do and say, dude, yeah that's okay, that make some bombs and blow blow some people here, here, here, and here. Maybe that's possible. He could have been a useful idiot. Well, and that ends up kind of being its own false flag thing, right, because you've got this like dumb American, he's making bombs, and then you can come in and say, look at what the Americans are doing. It could have been that got to get him out.

That would be That would be the best part about it is if you are one of these shadowy groups and uh, you know, and you want to you know, have you know, have a cut out. He'd be the perfect cutout because you could just say, like you said, oh, he's an American obviously, C I A and the CIA is like, you know, they're don't get me started on these guys, because I've got my own differences with these guys, because I'm sure we all do. But they are sort of the handy, the handy, just all around bad guy.

You know, they're kind of like in the movies. It's like, well, C oil companies to farmer companies to C I A. You know, it's always you know, it always is you know, it's it's it's kind of almost insulting to your intelligence. Yeah, I can't really see him being involved with these people because I don't know why they would want him, why they would need him. I mean, these are these again, these are people who are perfectly capable of making their

own bombs. So I don't really get it. And as far as the m L M MLF card that he had, again, as I said earlier, that could have just been a fake idea that he got somewhere or or had a very very standard reason for having it. Sure might have made travel in that part of the country more easier. I don't know. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kick that one of the curb and say that there is no good either. Let's go to another one here. Okay,

theory number three. Uh, he was a treasure hunter, but uh and he actually did have something valuable, like say, treasure maps or something in those boxes, but he booby trapped them and accudentally boot flew himself up, you know. And are they possible? Yeah? Why why why would you booby trap something like that instead of hiding it somewhere, you know, rather than carrying a booby trapped thing that

could go off on you at any time. Why wouldn't you just dig a secret hole under the third tree to the right, and there's that I uh, well, you know,

and that's that makes more sense to me. Why I keep that stuff like in a safe deposit box at the bank, you know, although maybe that's what he was doing, you know, I mean maybe, and this could be why he kept calling attention to those boxes that had patent bocks and everything, you know, because and like you say, to what the other things about about having that is, you know, if it does work, then you come on one day and somebody's trying to break into your box

and there's this huge, bloody mess in your room. Yeah, you gotta clean that up. Oh yeah, and plus the police might show up too, and then the whole thing is literally no pun intended, blown. Yeah, but yeah, really serious. But maybe he kept he actually did keep his secret documents and whatever somewhere else, and the boxes were just a decoy and you thought, well, I'll just put a bomb in there because and think, if you think about it, nobody's gonna come in there and cut the locks off

the boxes and open the boxes in the room. Not likely. Probably they got to steal the boxes, take them back to their place, and then cut the locks off, and then in that case they blow themselves up. So maybe that was kind of it. Maybe he just saw ha ha ha. Yeah, it's it's somebody that somebody get blown up, you know, by my bomb, by stealing my stuff. I mean,

that's that That would that would make more sense. Although you know, even then, of course, you still have a problem, which is that if you've got a bomb, and especially if your bomb making skills are not at the highest order and maybe made yourself an ammonium nitrate fuel oil bomb, and you're thinking that the explosive in there is more stable than it actually is, you know, and then one day, you know, just accidentally, you want your box and co bluely off it goes correct me if I'm wrong, but

if not made well, it's a rather volatile mix and temperature and humidity and static electricity apparently can even or shock, you know. And that's actually one of the theories that the police had is that is that the two boxes were side by side and he might have flipped open the cover on the middle cover on the one box and it banged down on the cover on the other box and had the bomb in it, and that was

enough to set it off. Yeah, so you know, it could be that he had a bomb in there and it just was a little more unstable than he realized. And so let's see. So I'm kind of like in that theory a little better than the first two. Um, still it's got some issues. Yeah, or another one another possibility is a theory number four is he was a treasure hunter, but he blew himself up opening a treasure box that he had found that had been booby trapped

by somebody else badly attempted, poor, poor attempt to diffuse. Yeah, so this is possible if he truly was a treasure hunter. That the only issues I have with this I think, as I mentioned, he had already had some talk about hiring some demos and experts to help him with issues like this. Yeah, so I'm kind of questioning why he would bring a box back to his hotel room. Well, just by the way, this is a legitimate theory that's been been put forth by people like in the press,

So I'm not just making this up. I was just gonna say, I don't think I see it in here. Is there there's not the theory that the boxes were indeed bombs, but that he was trying he was like keeping them to go use them on a cave or something like that. And he had taken the boxes, you know, to his demolition expert and said, Okay, rig me a bomb and then I'll take it to the cave and then I'll blow it because I don't want anybody to know where my cave is, right, so I'm gonna go

by myself. So I'll take these, I'll take him back to my room. Then i'll take them and then he I don't know, accidentally blew himself up somehow. That is a possibility to Yeah, but that you know, he didn't make the bomb, he didn't really know how unstable it was. He went to fuss with it, but he was going to use it for a legitimate demolition purpose. Yeah, possible. Um. I still if it were me, I would go rent a storage unity. If it were me, I would too,

But that's what I would do. You know, I'm not a dummy if he was going to use it too. Is you're saying devon do demolition on a site to recover something. I would think that it would be much simpler to just go acquired dynamite rather than some kind of what appears to be a home assembled bomb. I don't know what this guy was doing, or I'm just saying it out there as a thing in an illogical theory. Yeah,

none of this is really logical though. I mean, there's no real good reason for this to have happened, so just adding another one to the pile. Yeah, it's kind of hard to really make total sense of this story, honest with you. The but your theory is it works except for me, it doesn't really make sense to me that somebody would make a bomb and arm the bomb and then stash it away into their bed or something. That doesn't make sense. But again, maybe this guy was

complete well, he might not have really known. I mean, you know, I guess in my in my mind it's you know, he gets the bomb from the demolitions expert and he said, you know, how do I arm it? And he says, oh, yeah, you do it like this, and he was okay, cool, and then he's sitting in his room and he's like, I don't I think I'm gonna just try it, and maybe he's maybe it's like, you know, if I wait until I'm actually out there

to arm it, I will have forgotten. So I'm going to do one of them, yeah, or like okay, I think it's this and then accidentally did it and was like oh lips. And then there's that's why if you're not the explosives expert, you hire the guy and you bring him along in your little and then you pay him really well, and it's well yeah, yeah, and so that's but that is a possibility yet that he had some legitimate purpose for them, but he was just a screw up in the hand I don't know that there's

like a legitimate purpose for a bomb like this. Sometimes there are certain certain civilian to have a bomb like this. Well, that might have been one reason he needed to like, you know, do it on the on the d L. Yeah. Yeah, But back to the theory that he was opening up a treasure chest, that's fine. This gets back again to our demolition experts. He was he was talking about tracting with these guys to have them handle these delicate operations.

What's you know, having to do with ordnance, And you would think that those would be the guys that you would task with opening up these boxes that potentially have been booby trapped, because, let's let's face it, that wouldn't be a shock. You know that Japanese had had left these crates in a cave somewhere. You would expect them to be booby trapped, wouldn't you. Yeah? I sure would so, and I but still, why do you take it back to your hotel and probably the box open there a

little continental breakfast, the mooby trapped bob. It sounds like a normal morning to me. I mean, you know, I guess part of this could be, but um, he thought they were diffused or maybe or maybe he actually had watched them do it enough he thought, hey, I can do this piece of cake. Yeah. Still, if that's the case, grossly irresponsible to take it back to your hotel to do it, and you want to do it somewhere a

little more isolated than that, I would. Yeah, although you know, well he's going to blow himself up either way, right right, pretty much, Actually it works out better for him because if it's somewhere more isolated, he probably just bleeds to death before the paramedics show up. So you know, then maybe that's why he did maybe Yeah, but yeah, I'm an hard time believing that he would actually be dumb enough I mean that to do this. Again, I didn't really know the guy. Maybe he was just that time.

But the guy was an oncologist. This is not a low i Q person. Although there are there's book smarts in their street smarts. There's all between the two. Well, I know, I know there are definitely people out there higher high high i Q with not a lick of sense. You know, it's really really true. Uh So that's yet another theory down. Let's go to another theory here, which is that he was indeed a treasure hunter. But as we all know, he kind of fell in with that crowd,

the shadow Evenola group. Whichever one of the seven there are, whichever one of these what these people they were, I mean, again, this is more potentially BS, I don't know, But this is the thing about this about this story is that it's about the treasure. And as you all know, whenever the word treasure comes up, immediately clouds of BS immediately

rise up out of the round to surround the entire story. Right, That's one of the things that makes them so fun, I mean, because you hear these really fun, cool theories about it. But so later on sorting out the weeks from the chap makes it really really hard. But this this group of people, for reasons unbeknownst, decided that they would just you know, double across him and plant Obama's room.

So maybe that's maybe that's what happened. Again, and you know, the absence of any evidence, and we don't even know who these people were, if they even exist, it's kind of hard to credit this theory. I mean, you know, if he had a shadow organization partner, they figure, all right, he's the treasure hunter. He can find the treasure. And finally, you know, on this day he finds a treasure and they say, okay, well you take these two boxes as

your finder's fee. Right there. You know, they all look the same, right He opens one and it's got millions of dollars, and he says, okay, I'll take two boxes in my finder's fee, no problem, And they hand him one that's a bomb, so that he can't ever, so

they can double cross him. Yeah, I mean, you know, so that they know ostensibly get rid of him, get rid of any evidence, and also they are free to just do whatever they want with the money, and there's no one who's not part of the organization who knows about it or where it was or anything like that.

And then he you know, sitting in his hotel room thinking oh yeah, I have this money, and go to open this box that opens it into the bomb and blows him up but doesn't actually quite do his job, doesn't quite kill him that but at least in that case of with the fear of God, and because he didn't squeal on anybody, not that we know of, you think could have a motive, because i mean, obviously this

cost him pretty dearly. Although you know, it is. It is entirely possible that let's just presume for a second that the scenario that Devon just ran through is what happened. It's entirely possible that he squealed, but he did it to the US government and they used that information in some manner for the manner you know, then we don't you know, we're like, oh, he obviously didn't squeal because nothing happened. Maybe stuff did happen, Yeah, and it's just

it's never been informed about. It's clever enough that we never knew. Yeah, it's entirely possible. It might be that they were actually able to sus out a connection between the previous bombings in the Philippines and the bomb makings that were found, the fragments that were left found. Maybe and maybe the Philippines and the US government just sort of quietly worked it up behind the scenes and everybody

was satisfied, and they just didn't tell the president. Well, he wasn't the president at that time, you know that, it wasn't. It wasn't until fairly recently he became president. It's true. Yeah, and so, and I got a feeling that he's got a kind of a big ego, and that part of it is his outrage was just his feeling that he'd been left out of the loop. I'm not going to say, but all I canna say is that he's duly elected at the Filipino people want him, then more power to him. So let's come down to

our bottom line here on this story. Whatever it is about this bomb, wherever it came from, I think he had some guilty knowledge of it, because you were, as you were recalled, he did reportedly at least tell the police while he was still bleeding and being taken from the room, say, oh, somebody through a grenade in here? Is there any chance that there could have been a

grenade that set off a bomb? Yeah? Good question. But I tend to think that these guys, I mean, these these demolitions experts, these guys are kind of like cs I for bomb scenes. And there's a lot of bombs that go off in the Philippines, so you guys probably know their stuff. I just wonder if there was a bomb in his room, and I see what you're saying,

that somebody lobbed a grenade in there. I don't know, if I don't know if the bigger bomb would cover up all evidence that a grenade even was in there or what. I don't know. Sec Yeah, I see what you're saying. But grenades, like they create their own special kind of shrapnel, you know, And so I would think they would have been finding all these pieces of shrapnel in his body and around the room and stuff. That

would be different. Was that what floor was here? I assume the third floor, room three oh five, but I don't know. Maybe and maybe in the Philippines, and I mean some places I hear they number them from the top floor down. So well, I mean I'm just thinking, Okay, well, that's why I was asking. I'm like, if he's on the third floor, you got a hell of an arm to throw. Unless somebody opened up the door to his room and chucked it in from the hallway, I I

automatically assumed they threw it through the window. Yeah, it could have been that. It could have been you know, you get the room next door and you just like sort of lean way out the window and fling it in the window next door. Now, I you know, I don't know, I know how I would do it. I would get the room next door. The subtle guy that I am, and I get a saws all and I

would saw it. I would sade grenade sized hole through that connecting door and then just push a grenade or two through there, you know, And yeah, it would totally catch them off guard. They'd just be going, what's that? And then then hear this, they said, oh my god, grandad. Now just kidding anyway, they probably Honestly, I don't. I don't think that was a great and I think that I think that he was trying to mislead the police, which indicates to me that that he probably was blown

up by his own bomb. But I don't think he was doing it for the CIA or some local terrorist group. And I don't think he was a master bomb maker, So maybe he was just playing with bombs for his own ends. I mean, there are people who do that. I mean, I knew a kid in high school who blew himself up making a bomb. Yeah, I knew a kid who all the serious damage to his hand. All of us knew somebody in high school to blew himself up,

don't we. I mean, maybe you don't know. Maybe it's more of an older generation thing and kids today aren't so much into that stuff. But when I was a kid. It just seemed like every class had had a dead kid from a bomb. Yeah, he did kids from other stuff. Yeah. No, I was gonna say the one I knew didn't die, but he end up pretty good. Yeah, that's why I stay away from that stuff. Good idea, and all our listeners, you guys should do that too, So stay away from

the bombs. Uh. So. Yeah, I think that he knew something about that bomb, But beyond that, I just can't say. I don't think he was a super secret spy. I yea mystery to me, but yeah, so I think we can put that part of it to rest. He was not with the CIA. I don't know what the heck he was doing. I mean, there's just the reporting on this just makes it so tough. The Philippine reporting gets more and more inflammatory, to the point that I can't

help but question every single statement that's made. Yeah, I know, so, I I really I don't know where I stand on this other than I feel bad that the guy was in the middle of an explosion. Yeah, yeah, I mean the but like you said, the reporting on it is such and I'm not saying that Filipino reporters are any worse than American, but they just went out and found some people who claimed to know this guy and just

basically printed whatever bs these guys told him. And of course, Meiring himself might have been probably was a total BS artist himself, if he they did say all the things that he said, these things that he said to people, I mean, I think he was kind of yeah, and so it's kind of amazing this guy was telling these tall tales and then it turns into this international incident. Now our relationship with the Philippines is seriously kind of

in question. It's like really, uh So, anyway, hopefully Rodrigo do Teritory, if you are listening to this episode, first of all, sponsor us on Patreon. Uh. Second of all, subscribe to leave us a rating. And third of all, you know, take take this all to heart. All right, that's about it. Um any any more theories on your guys part? Okay, UM, so you probably want to know you probably if you are do Territy or anybody else. You want to know our email address, Well, it is

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Ignore those guys. So that's about it for this week until next week whatever they still in say in the Philippines. This one was a blast. Bye, guys, dudes,