Thinking Sideways: Lyle Stevik

can probably adopt a possum. Go to your local animal shelter see who they have that are available to take home. And if you've already got enough friends at home and you can't bring a new one home, remember that they can always use your time as a volunteer, or you can always donate to the cause. So get out there, find that little possum friend and enjoy. But remember he's

not actually sleeping, he's just playing possum. Thank ye, Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast Do I Am Devin, Joined as always by Joe and Steve, and today we're gonna talk about a mystery I thought I thought this was the laundry episode. That's sexist, Steve. No, I thought it was a laundry episode because I keep asking what happened to that other sock and I don't know if it disappeared in the washer or the dryer, And you guys keep telling me we're going to cover

that story. Now. That's that's actually I'm saving that kind of stuff up for my Matrix episode. Okay, yeah, gotcha there, because we do live in the Matrix kids, I know. Yeah, today we're actually going to talk about the identity of Lyle Stept. This episode has been suggested and requested by pretty much everybody once a month or two at least. Yeah, and usually we're like, we'll do it soon, I guess or whatever. So good news, we're doing it now. We're

just waiting to see if somebody who is true identity. Yeah. I do want to preface this by saying that I know this case is a lot of people's pet case. You know, it's the one that you do the most research on. A lot of people are kind of obsessed with this one. Yeah, they are, And we are going to try to keep this episode to our normal time of you know, about an hour, so we are very likely going to leave some things out, and the things that we leave out may end up being your favorite detail.

Sorry about that. You probably have listened to the show before you know how it goes. If if we leave out your favorite detail, we encourage you to engage in the discussion that's happening online, particularly in public forums, because it's way more interesting when we can get a bunch of people involved in the conversation. UM. But you know, just bear that in mind. Bear that in mind, please, because there are a lot of little details to this

story that may or may not be pertinent. I could I could easily see somebody taking this on and being a half half season, it could probably it could probably be an entire show. Maybe Yeah, I guess you could do that, but I don't know. People have done more with less. That's a good point. I'd rather keep it to UM. And then a final disclaimer before we really get into it. There's a bit of a small ears warning because we do talk about suicide a bit. Other

than that, it's a pretty safe episode, so your own discretion. Okay, let's get into it. On September six, one Lyle Stevick was found hanging by a belt in a hotel room he'd rented in Amanda Park, Washington. Where's that in Washington on the state, Yes, just kidding, Yeah, Actually, you know it's funny. I'm pretty sure I've driven by Amanda Park, Yeah, because I was going up through the Olympic National Forest. Yeah, and the may I can't remember the name that what

number of highway it is that that goes Manda Park? Okay, probably did, Yeah, because I remember driving up there like a kind of a white spot in the road. But yeah, no, but yeah, but it's it's just in the Olympics, said, but it's beautiful, beautiful country. Yeah. So police did a search for next of kin and they found out that Lyle Stevick was probably a fake name, possibly from a book. It's a seven book. A lot of places on the internet you'll see it referred to as like a nine

or book. But I believe the first edition came out in eighty seven called You Must Remember This Not the podcast. Apparently the author is Joyce Carol Oates got some some inquiries about this, has said that it's just a made up name. It means nothing to me. It just I just made it up and made up the whole Stevic family. You're not. Yeah, let's go ahead and talk about the events leading up to and his death, and then we'll talk about some more details and then we'll talk about theories.

Perfect just like to give everybody roadmap. The most definitive timeline. Timeline we have for Lyle starts literally three days before his death, when he checked into the hotel that he would ultimately kill himself in. He had maybe arrived by bus a few hours earlier, most likely on a bus from Port Angelis, Washington, which was a southbound bus heading south because Port Angelis is on the northern tip of

the state. Huh um. But a bus had come in from Aberdeen, Washington, which was a northbound bus because I was south on the southern end of the state pretty much about the same time. And when investigators checked with the two bus drivers, they didn't recognize him. But I suspect bus drivers don't recognize most of their unless you make a ruckus on the bus and give them cause to take note of who you are. Yeah, probably not. And it seems like Lyle was a pretty non I mean,

he himself is not. He's actually a striking looking Yeah, but I think he Yeah, you're right, was but I think he, um, he didn't seem to really make himself known. No, no, for sure, and probably the bus driver is just like looking at your ticket, anyone not looking at you. Yeah, and then if you just you know, sit in your seat quietly and get off in a normal spot, you're you're probably not going to be noticed. But again, somebody

could have just dropped him off. He could have hitched act or somebody actually a friend could have driven him there and dropped him off, or he could have walked. I mean probably not. But the aliens could have deposited him. We don't know so, but we're pretty sure that he was on the bus. The most likely is that he was on the bus from Port Angeles, so southbound from camp it would been from like the northernmost part of Washington,

basically nor the most reaches. Yeah, pretty much. Actually, you know, he could have come from can don't know, there's various to Port Angeles from Canada. Yeah, but for all in times and purposes, we can say he was most likely coming south. Lyle didn't have any luggage when he checked in the hotel, Although there is some discussion about whether or not he had a backpack. In any case, even if he did check in with a backpack, it wasn't in his room when he died. He only had a

couple of things. Really, yeah, really he had like some money and then m a toothbrush and toothpaste was really the only things that could even qualify as personal belongings that he had in his room. Peter was his name, Yeah, Peter Bergman. Yeah. So, like we said, he checked in the hotel on the fourteenth of September two thousand one. He paid for one night cash, but he said he was probably going to stay more nights, and he ended

up staying three nights. He was initially put in room eight, which was the room that was at the very end of the a motel hotel sort of. It was. It was almost like little cottages that were two motel rooms in a building and then there would be space between him and then another one that had two rooms. And it was one of those kind of places, not like the motel eight, which is just one giant room. Yeah, it's a town that size is not going to have a big no no, but just I think room eight

was literally the last room. I think there were eight rooms. Um, So what happened is he got put in room eight, and then he came back a couple hours later to the front desk and said, you know that trailer park that's right next door. It's it's too loud. I'm having

a hard time getting settled. Can I change rooms? And she said, She said that when he had first checked in, he just seemed, you know, nice um, But when he came back this second time, he made her feel uncomfortable and he seemed kind of like he was spaced out. But she said, okay, did you do anything in that room him? I think she probably thought maybe he was doing drugs or something, you know, she said, did you do anything that room? He said, well, I just messed

with the pillows a little bit. And she explicitly apparently said did you take a shower? And he said no, and she said all right, and put him in room five, and that's where he stayed for all three nights. It did turn out that he had actually taken a shower in room eight. So I don't know what's up with that, Why, why she was concerned about it. You would have had to change out all I don't know why, right, yes, but I don't totally understand why he lied about it

or why that. I mean, I guess he could have been motivation is to change rooms. He's going to appease her and tell her he did nothing, no matter what he actually did. Fair enough, Yeah, but just like a

little good I guess it's dumb. Yeah. And as mentioned the reason that the clerk let him check in without I D, I guess, you know, again, small town, they're a little more lenient, So she did let him check in without I D. But she said that she let him check in without idea because he seemed like a nice guy, seemed like an okay Yeah, and then you know, a couple of hours later she was describing him as kind of off and making her uncomfortable. So I really know.

She said that she thought that he might have had a slight Canadian accent, But I also think that that could mean a lot of different things. Again, especially since it's such a small place and it is more north, it's so totally possible that she just, you know, any accents out kind of Canadian to her. You know, there's certainly there's a whole host of accents that if you're not really paying attention and they're very subtle. People can

incorrectly apply them to another nationality. He probably just mispronounced a word or two and she thought, well, it's I mean, that's so close to Canada there, you gotta get lots of Canadians there, and she's probably just saw maybe a Canadian by mispronouncing, saying Canadians mispronounced. But they say things like, you know, a boat instead of about and things like that. You know, after that first day, the next day, Friday, no, we didn't right that. It was a pretty uneventful day.

I've seen reports that Lyle was seen pacing up and down the highway, but I think that that by the side of the highway. I well, yeah, the side of the highway. But I actually think that that's a misunderstanding of what actually was happening, which was that hotel staff reported that he was seen walking up and down hallways in like in the motel area. Halways they're little bungalows. There's you could call it a hallway between things. Okay,

I would I would not call that a hallway. But I also think that if he was walking into the town, the only way to get to town is to walk down the side of the highway, So I think that's where that came from. I just I read an interview will that we'll talk about a little later with the woman who's the daughter of the maid that found Lyle, and she had one of the things she said is that she had seen him pacing up and down the hallway, is what she called it. So I don't know at

the time. I mean, the guy had no reading with serial in this room. Well he did, he had the newspapers, yeah, but I mean other than that though, And you know, and he was pacing up and down the side the highway. Maybe he was waiting for the bus, yeah, you know, or something like that. On the sixteenth, Again, not really totally clear what happened. There are some discrepancies in reporting

he was His body was found on the seventeen. They believe he hung himself either really late on the night of the sixteen or maybe really early the seventeenth, but probably Sunday night. Yeah, it's hard to say, and that it depending on who is telling this in written form on the internet. It can make it very very confusing. When I first read your stuff, it's like that the days are totally off because I had just gotten finished

reading one that I realized had totally bungled the time. Yeah, it's a it's a kind of weird time frame because I think people want to truncate it a lot because there's no information on those two days. But tween people are just like, he checked in and then he died, but there's two days something. One of the things that I haven't seen anything about is what did he do for food the entire time? Did anybody check the local store to see if you wanted and bought like doughnuts

and milk? Yeah. Well, one of the things somebody brought up, which I think is actually probably a pretty good theory, is there was a barber in town and maybe he went in for a haircut in a shave because he was clean shaven and his hair was but he had no rasor. Again, this is this is a little car before the horse. So, as I mentioned, you may have missed it. He did ultimately end up hanging himself, but it was his method of suicide. He had hung himself with his belt and a green There was a green

washcloth between his neck and the belt. There are some not safe for life photos on the internet. They're super easy to find, and the thing that's very weird about these photos is they are like disturbingly not to sturbing to look at. Did you guys look at that kind

of placid? Yeah, they're very calm. There's no violence. It's just and you know, it's it's I don't know, maybe something with the tone of the pictures, like the actual color tone of the pictures or something, but it's just kind of like, oh, that's interesting, not like, oh God, that's a dead human hanging there, but it is a dead human hanging there. Yeah, that's the whole thing. It's like, there's this there's this guyline there, and didn't you realize

the poor guy is dead? That sucks. It just looks like sleeping, like kind of like that Mary Anderson, right, she just looked like she was sleeping. So, as mentioned, he hung himself with his belt. The there was that washcloth in between the belt and the green net, the green wash cloth. The buckle was facing his chin, and he tied the other end of the belt around the metal pole. And they call it an alcove in the

motel room. It's the closet. It's like a closet with no doors and the metal pole is it's one of those metal actually see in hotels that you're supposed to set your suitcase on, but it's and it's above head high, head high. Yeah, this one is higher than they normal you normally see them in a hotel. Well, now see, I've seen this before. So what you're thinking of is those little foldable ones that are that you would set

your suitcase on. I think now this, I've seen this kind before, and they're usually at about eye levels so that they can be used to you know, with the hanger shirts and hang your shirts and stuff like that. But then it's also got the platform on top and they intend for you to put your bag up there rather than the little folding one. But I've seen these a whole bunch. Yeah. They also sometimes store extra pillows and stuff like that, or the iron if they provide

an iron. Yeah, they always provide an iron. If they provide an iron, always provide. I always make them take it away. I can only hurt myself with this thing. Yeah. So he he was not hanging off the ground. He was kind of a like a kneeling he he was very committed to this act. Yes, and he was facing the back of the wall, so he was taking into

the alcove. His head was tilted up towards the sky or so it's the ceiling um, and he had hung pillows on either side of the little alcove that he was in, presumably to avoid making noise, because do you automatically are going to thrash when you really did not look like he thrashed. I mean, he probably did, I mean, just because he hung pillows and they absorbed the blows.

But I mean, it doesn't look to me like he did either, because what he did is by hanging, he stuffed the pillows between the side the side and the size of that metal thing in the wall, just stuffed them in there very tidily and nicely. And if he thrashed, I would think they would have been knocked askew a little bit, but they're perfectly perfectly aligned with each other, and so who knows. It doesn't really matter yet, But the fact is if he if he did thrash, nobody

heard of anyway. The weird thing, though, is that because that shelf was so low, his knees were barely off the ground. That's that's why I say that he was so very committed to keep doing what he was doing. He could have very easily just stood up or even like I mean like literally any almost any movement would have probably stopped the process from him. So I think that's one of the things that does strike a lot of people about this case is that he Yeah. I mean,

you know, there's a lot of things about it. I mean there's a lot of example, like you said he was like he said he was, he was clean shaven, going to kill yourself? Why bother shaving? He was clean shaven, and but he didn't have a razor, But why why bother going into the barber to get a shave? And that's you know, you know, it's weird. There's a lot of weird things about this. Pacing by the highway makes

me wonder. So since he was recently deceased, it was easy to get his fingerprints, his dental records, and his DNA. The d N A I will say I have I know is saliva DNA. So they can't send it for a lot of the DNA testing that they would otherwise be able to end it for for science reasons. I don't understand the science mind it, but they're science reason, I think, I think, yeah, but I think they have some way it doesn't matter anyway. They can't. They can't

do the um what was it, the mitochondrial DNA. Oh yeah, maybe that's the one where they can trace the family tree. Yah, they can't do that one. They can't. Why not because I don't know reason, But I thought they did because that's how you did it when it's like the twenty three and me, when you like send in your DNA for like your genetic analysis. So I don't really understand why.

I have just seen from the you know, the people who have been really really committed to this case online, reading through their kind of conversations, seeing that yes, we we wanted to send it, but you know, the saliva DNA. For whatever reason, the saliva DNA we have, we need something to test it against. We can't just by you know what. That's another thing that makes me wonder about this one is why nobody has just done a general test to see was what his ethnicity is? Well, so

that one's a bit question about it. That is actually a bit of um A thing. Yeah, I I don't know. I don't think that there is actual lack of consensus. They think that the actual investigators are pretty agreed on what his ethnicity is but yeah, the internet, Who's just like but I don't know, he looks kind of like he might be this, which is true. I mean he does look you could kind of just put him in a lot of different ethnicity. He could be Hispanic, he

could be American, Indian, he could be Arabs. There's a lot a lot of different we'll talk about all of that. A full isotope report is available online. It's twenty nine pages long. We'll talk about some of that a little bit, but we're not going to go too far into that. So if that's the sort of thing that does interest you, you should look at that. Super easy to find. But I want to keep talking about Lyles, the room and all of that stuff. Lyle was found by the maid

she had. She knocked on the door to try to clean the room, and she said that when she went in the first time, she thought he was praying in the alcove. She just kind of saw his knees and saw him. You know, she does what every maid does when they opened the room and they see that somebody is there and probably doing something that they don't want to be observed. She went closes the door quietly and goes on about her business. She's probably that auto urotic

that thing. No, I think she probably just like saw his feet and was like, okay, whoops, sorry, you know, sorry, sir, you know, I'll come back later. Later. She came back with a manager and they called the cops when they realized what had happened. And yeah, the manager is the one that went in and realized what was going on. Yeah, Um, he had left a hundred and sixty dollars exactly in twenty dollar bills and a note saying for the room, because you remember, he'd only paid for that first night.

Hundred sixty dollars happens to be exactly what he owed for the other two nights. It looks like I've heard it said on the on the inter website, they were very crisp, brand new twenty dollar bills. They looked pretty crisp, and they look at the pictures, they look pretty crisp. Yeah. That's what I want to know is are they truly authentically, you know, really super new crisp twenty dollar bills. I don't I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, Joe.

I'm sorry, I know it's crazy. Those are the sort of things that would be like really nice to know, but I don't think people really ask that question a lot. He had eight additional dollar bills crumpled in his pocket and a pen. There was some change. I can't remember how much exactly. They actually books six no buck seventy five something in like loose change like dimes and nickels and stuff like that. And by the way, in the picture that you see that the coins have been like arranged,

they've been sorted out. That was and did you say that was done by the one of the policemen to count them. Yeah, what I said was, there's in some of the pictures you can also see a little piece of paper with columns um and like tally marks that you know, look like, oh, somebody was tallying up how much money they had. It was the detective somebody. Literally, it wasn't some weird thing that was left in the room.

It was just the the investigators were counting the change. Um. And that's how they were keeping track of it, because it was like it was kind of a lot of change. It wasn't. I don't I don't know how many quarters. I don't remember. I'm so sorry. Um didn't look like a couple of quarters, yeah, but most of it was like dimes and nickels. I feel, but who automatically pulls bills out to pay for stuff and doesn't try to use it. Well, it was like that. It very quickly

adds up totally. But it was more that like it wasn't as though you could just be like, well, there's five quarters, so it's you know in there. Yeah, yeah, I think it's It's pretty sweet that he still paid his bill and kind of speaks to his character. Probably maybe the only other things as mentioned in the room that didn't really belong there were the toothbrush and toothpaste. There was also an empty pepsi cup and two copies of the Sunday newspaper, the local Sunday newspaper from the

day before, the Daily World from Aberdeen. Yeah, then they don't have an online archive. I wanted to see what that that issue covered, probably not eleven yeah right, yeah, but one of the copies of the Sunday paper was in the trash with the pepsi cup and a crumpled piece of paper that just said suicide on it, and the other copy was out. Um, so I don't know why he had two copies, but there you go. Probably got it out of the machine and you can always

take more than one if you want. Yeah, it's true, but he seemed like a pretty honest guy. I mean, he left money for the hotel room. So anyway, maybe he was going to commit the originally suicide by newspaper and change his mind just paper cuts or something. He had spoken to the maid on Sunday night, um, just before his suicide, and he had made it clear that he did not need cleaning services, but he did ask for a fresh towel, and he also handed the trash

out to her in the hall. He arrived on Friday. Yeah, he hung out on Saturday. His body was found on Sunday, Monday, Monday, Monday, okay, Monday. That's again. I know, people, there's the two days that are like count because people, when I see the reporting, it's so truncated. Probably probably killed himself Sunday night. But now and yeah, he killed himself Sunday night. He was found Monday. Okay. And again back to the maid's daughter who posts stuff on that Facebook page devoted to this

you know what I'm talking about, do? Yeah? Apparently it was during this exchange that she says her mother heard another voice in the room. Yeah, we're gonna talk about that. Okay, Sorry, I keep stepping all over it. That's okay, No, it's fine. But yeah, she there's a bit of intrigue there to be continued. She did say that, but I'm not sure, but he did. She did take the trash out that night,

so that was new trash as of Sunday evening. Um, just you know again, if that means anything to anyone, Lyle, you know, since he hadn't give an idea or anything like that, but you do have to give an address home address for your hotel rooms day. So he gave the address of one zero one nine South Progress Avenue in Meridian, Ohio, Idaho, Ida, Idaho. I like Ohio better

right next door to each other practically. So the local investigator, sorry, did you have something to say about If you look at the note too, he actually didn't put Meridian, Idaho. Is somebody else wrote that in Meridian, Idaho? Yeah, if you look at it, if you look at them where he wrote it down, it's not his handwriting. We can talk about the handwriting in a little bit. His handwriting is not consistent, but the suspicion is that it's because

he was faking his handwriting. I mean he wrote in those big block letters, which is like totally in line with what people do when they're trying to miss um mask their hand writing. But yeah, we can talk about that in a little bit. That the local investigators did, of course reach out to police in Meridian. They said, hey, we found a body. Guy said this is his address, can you go check it out? And it turned out that it was either a Ramada in or a holiday in,

depending on the reporting. I didn't bother to google it. I'm sorry, it's probably hotels, changed names, change hands. It looks like your standard you know, days in Ramadi and kind of place, you know, kind of you know, yeah, a little better than than a scuzzy motel, but not exactly you know, the highest regency either in between. Yeah, well that's right up kind of on a park. You know. Um,

there goes advertising for so um. The investigators had sent over some some photos of Lysle to the police and Meridian, and you know, the police and Meridian showed it to the staff at the hotel there and they didn't recognize him at all, which either means you know, he never stayed there or something else entirely, which you know, you know, although I think I think they kind of, like, um,

kind of fell down. I mean, the local investigators are somebody kind of fell down the job there, because right across the street there's like a home depot in a Walmart. It probably should have walked over there and showed his picture around to saying, you know, this guy shop here, does you work here? Do that? As far as I know, that's I think that's probably true. They probably should. I don't know if they fell down on the job, Joe. I mean that's that's you saying, oh, I see this thing.

I think it's interesting they should do that. Where their job is go to this place, ask these questions. I have a whole bunch of stuff to do besides this cold case from another town. I don't have any involvement with. That's the thing is, of course, obviously nobody it's time knew that this is going to turn into a big obsession for a bunch of people on the internet. Nobody knew that at the time. Just one of those things like in retrospect, it would have been kayak cool if

they checked out this and this and this. You know, but nobody knew. And then again, this is a week after nine eleven. Most of the country was not operating on all cylinders, but we're still operating in kind of a fog. Yeah. So, um a physical description of Lyle because he was measured quote unquote measured at six foot tall. Most of the reporting you will see says that he

was anywhere between five ten and six two. I don't totally understand like they had his body, like totally understand why you didn't wouldn't know how tall a human was from there laying down position. But that's you know what I mean. I see where if you have a body that's several years old, where you know it's maybe shriveled a bit and you can't really tell for share or there's some trauma that's been done to it like that, Well yeah, I get but yeah, they had a complete body.

I don't get it either. The investigator said that he thought that Lyle was five, but the official age range given is twenty to thirty. He had straight black hair that, as mentioned, was neatly trimmed and little to no stubble. I've seen some discrepancy on this as well. I've seen either he had zero stubble. Definitely no stubble at all. But I've also seen that he had maybe a day's worth of stubble. Again, i mean, you know, for a lot of guys, especially at the mid twenty range, like

a day's growth isn't really much to sneeze at. But he did have definitely, he did definitely have a stubble. Yeah, well, no, he did not. Definitely didn't have a full on stubble. He didn't have what you and I would call five o'clock shadow. He didn't have that. He might have had a little bit of hair there, but it wasn't anything outstanding. It was, you know, the same way that a teenager

grows a beard, the whiskey mustache. Yeah. Um, but again, as mentioned, we're going to keep saying it's a little weird because there was no razor in his room. Um, but he was in that room for three days, so his eyes were hazel. As mentioned, his ethnicity is on the internet up for grabs. He's officially listed as white. Uh, there's that speculation the you know, he's Hispanic, Native American, Missile American, Middle Eastern Italian or even from Norway. I'm

not sure about the Norwegian one. The only the only connection I can find in Norway is I went to Google Maps and typed in Stivac, there's there's a Norway. Yeah, that's the only reason I can think. Yes, that is why people think that Officially, like I said, he is listed as white. Um, there has been some official investigation

into Native American communities as well. I presume since they have his DNA they've done some kind of genetic marker text test, because they keep saying they can't do certain tests because they only had the saliva DNA. Yeah, so they don't understand that you've got a whole frigging body to work with, You've got all kinds of bodily. I don't think they have a body anymore until after the fact. I don't think they really pursued the whole what is

his ethnicity until he was in the ground. But I thought that they took tissue samples and blood samples and all kinds of stuff from his body to say, just just for later purposes. I thought they would have done that as well. But like I said, I've read but I get you know again, it's all it's all internet reporting, so it could be totally wrong, but since it's an ongoing investigation still, like we don't probably have all the

information that we could use, you know. So I do believe that there's some Native American connection, but I think he's you know, like white slash Native American. It's super distant, yea. So he also had some semi distinguishing features, like his nose. Yeah, so it did look like it may have been broken.

The m e. S Report didn't mention that it had signs of actually being broken, and so I actually think that that it's a distortion from him hanging himself that happened on the on his nose instead of it actually having been broken like not recently he you know, but that it was like a broken and heeled situation because usually there's scars and stuff. But I don't know. Again, he also had attached ear lobes, which is apparently like a thing that only six of the population has and

it's like genetic. So again that should be another little thing to help narrow down, but it seems to not really be working. He had they just call him marks on his knuckles. Officially, they're like Russell's signs, which are callouses on your knuckles. Most often associated with long term bolima, and we'll talk about that in a little bit, thank you. Um he had perfect or near perfect teeth with signs, the kind of perfect teeth you get only from or Theodancia,

not like nobody. Yeah. He also had a quote unquote not recent appendectomy scar. Yeah it wasn't pink still. Yeah, I mean, you know, at least a couple of years old, I think faded. He was wearing a blue plaid shirt, a genuine leather brown belt with a big silver buckle. While he was he was wearing it in the wrong spot. But uh, and the buckle was kind of a big Western buckle. Was it the Western style buckle? I it doesn't look like it looked like the kind that which

is just a metal loop. I think that is the Western style buckle. I think the big old rodeo cowbody. Yeah, okay, yeah, that's why I was asking about the style, just like a not European style. What's the European style? The narrow you know? I think that I think that those is you know, those square ones that are like just like a panel and they have like the hook and the back and it just clicks in. That's what I think of I don't know, could be that up. That's what

I've got. Yeah, and then that got the is the weirdest episode ever. We're all pulling our belts out. Yeah, okay, so it was a loop. Okay, it was a loop type buckle. It's my understanding that the belt showed signs of significant weight loss, which makes sense on some things that we'll talk about later. Again. Yeah, I think that he had changed changed holes. Yeah, that there was significant wear on like two different holes that weren't just right

next to each other. That or he got the bell secondhand. But hey, well the emmy said, and granted, all of the clothes that he was wearing were like his pants were like a little baggy on him. The emmy said that he showed signs of having lost about forty pounds recently. Maybe are the Yeah, I mean he's wearing a size thirty six jeans and the guy was six too, with a hundred forty pounds, which is pretty damn skinny, and I can't see fitting into size thirty six jeans. He's

that's more like what's thirty two waste? We had dundsounds, Yeah, I mean that's like, yeah, so I would have been really baggy, yeah, which is why he had a belt, right, yeah, yeah, no, thinking about how much I weighed what I wear that that is super balloon pants. Yeah. But at the same time, he might have just bought had a local good will somewhere in Port Angeles, and you know, yeah, yeah, I mean I think the Emmy had evidence other than just the baggy pants to suggest that he had lost the

forty pounds recently. It's might understand. Yeah, I think there was some like Loue skin situation happening. Um, So he was wearing blue jeans as mentioned, and then he had black leather Timberland boots which were in like pretty good condition. The jeans were Levies, the boots were Timberland. You know, it's kind of like nicer but not luxury brand. Timberland boots are pretty dang expensive though, or can be. I was actually I actually looked into this little bit trying

to figure it out, and Timberland's began. Timberland the company got bought by somebody several times and began to add apparel other than boots to their catalog in the mid to late nineties and that and then and then they started adding more apparel in the mid two thousand's, and that's really I think when their cost started escalating. So I don't think they were super expensive at this time. I think that they were mid grade in terms of costs.

They weren't low end, but they definitely weren't what you would see now when you see the you know, some guy on stage at a show performing and he's paid a thousand dollars for these Timberlands, I'm sure that they will bedazzle them with diamonds for you and sell them to you as for as much as they can. I think you asked Timberland's were like a good buck fifty or so. At least that's not cheap cheap, But that doesn't mean that he bought the high end boot all.

Remember that everybody makes an expensive model at a cheap model, and there's going to be arranged there. Yeah. Anyway, Um, at some point he had also taken one of a bed spread and put it up over the window to block out the light or noise or noise. Yeah, as we mentioned earlier, there's that full isotope review that kind of maps his movements where could have been kind of things like minerals and stuff in his skin and hair, which is like creepy and useful and like a soapbox.

About this thing for a second, because it it bugs the heck out of me. Because we talked about some kind of isotope review in what was the Princess Dough. We talked about that and they had actually been able to narrow it down to very specific sites. In this there's nothing very specific. I mean, when you read this report and you start looking at the maps, it looks like if you were watching the National News and Al Roker or Willard Scott we're on there showing you the

temperature bands across the country. That's how specific his map is, Like this band reaches from the east coast to the west coast and does this kind of serpentine curve. And that's as specific as they're said. They're what what's interesting is that if you look at that and and they map it by by different minerals and and so if you look at the differences between it, you can see space, and you can see that there are certain places that are a lot more specific. But it's that that doesn't

pin anything down. And that's that's my problem with well, I have a big problem with this methodology too, which is that it only maps uh, basically North America essentially, and it should be mapping the entire world. I mean, they're assuming the guy comes from North America. The guy might have lived in Asia, Africa, god knows where his entire life and only come here race And so it makes it look like, wow, he came from this this this narrow sort of geographical area in North America. But

there's you know, I don't think that's that's at all proven. Yeah, I would agree with that. The one thing I will say is that it's my understanding from that isotope review that it looks like he spent some time in Amanda Park, like a couple of months before he killed himself and then went away and then returned. And that's the other thing is like a haw could that be? So maybe this thing isn't that trustworthy after all. Well, I mean, it could be he came in and like hit out

in somebody's trailer for a couple of months. Maybe he was staying with somebody in that person. This is like this is a theories thing, right, but you know, maybe he was staying with somebody and that person died and he left and then came back to kill himself because that was the last person that he cared about, and those would have been the two people that knew him. You know, like there are reasons we can like theorize, just speculate wildly around why he could have been on

identifying in the area. Yeah, irresponsibly. I just have two more quick notes before we get into theories. One is what we mentioned already with Joe, just kind of like giving us that nugget of um of the idea that Lyle may not have been alone on Sunday night in

his room. Uh. The speculation coupled with him not allowing the maid to come in to clean Sunday night, the maid saying that he she thought that she heard maybe other voices in the room, and the fact that from the crime scene photos the toilet seat is down me finish makes people seats again, makes people believe that he that means that he was not alone, that he had a female visitor. That yeah, actually that's true. That no man ever shuts the toilet seat. That's not true. No

man does that. That's absolutely not true. Listen, toilets are gross, and there's no reason that I need to be staring into that thing because I don't like to unsanitary close. I was tweaking Stevens. But I mean, like, that's part of it too, is that Lyle strikes me as a very clean person. In general, it's not unheard of for somebody to know. Actually it's not totally. But at the same time, it's it's it is not typical for a

guy to do that. Yeah, I don't know, I just you know what, that's not true that it all depends on your personality and how you were raised. You know, there's this this whole thing every man stands when he peas, But that's not true. There's a chunk of society that where men sit down to urinate just like women because it's cleaner. Yeah, but every man does stand to wipe after they've pooped. You should google that. No, I shouldn't

actually stand totally irrect and wipe. Yeah, there's a lot of discussion on the internet about like this was a thing that I had no idea, but apparently suddenly I'm questioning mascul There are a lot of people who like stand up to wipe. I know, I agree, I started doing it wrong this time. I don't know. I'm sure we're gonna get some really great emails from people who are like, you're the barbarian. Yeah, I guess you also

go from back to front. Anyway, So we've a little gotten a little off track here what should otherwise be a very serious episode. Um, I think it's silly to use the closed toilet seat as evidence that someone else was there. I also think it's a little silly to use his refusal to have the maid come in to clean the room as evidence that someone else was there the door before and said no, no, no, no, I'm fine. Yeah, okay, here here's the trash bag, like just off hanging out.

I don't want you in. I don't need I don't need my had made and I can re use towels I took a shower with this morning, So yeah, what do I need you in here for? Well? Yeah, and I mean there's also some speculation again we'll get to this in a little bit, but that um he had rehearsed his suicide because the technique that he used encouraged people to um rehearse it, and so it's possible he had all set up already and he was like, obviously I'm not going to like the maid in here to

like see what's going on in here. So again to my critique, my form. You know, I spent a lot of time on that suicide forum and yeah, um so I don't really know about that, but you will see that around and I think that's as far as we're going to go into it. The other note that I will just briefly mentioned is that, as we said in the beginning, there is a character in a book called You Must Remember This named Lyle Stevic. It's spelled differently.

The last name is you know, the last name is it's spelled with a c K and sent of just de kay. But this book is like a super depressing book. It's opens was an attempted suicide of Lyle Sevic. Yeah, and Lyle in this book tries to commit like at least contemplates committing suicide a number of times. And there's this weird relationship between his daughter and his half brother who's a famous boxer, and it's just this it's a

really depressing thing. And so if somebody had read that book and was just looking for a pseudonym, picking that one makes some sense. That's a hell of a coincidence, though it would I mean it is and it isn't. I mean, we all have our favorite books, you know, and maybe it just happens that this was Lyle's favorite book. Okay, I'll let that go. It's you actually as possible with the guy like took an English lit class in community college or something like that and they read that book.

I was like, no, not, nobody's gonna let me sign in to a hotel using my favorite book character's name because they know that I am not curious George, I don't. Yeah, anyway, that's my last note. Uh, do you have any other notes that you want to add before we start talking about theories. There is the anagram theory for his name, which I'll touch on briefly, which is like, you know, is that a theory? Uh? Some people have thought that

it might be. And actually, I gotta tell you, before I heard of this theory, even I thought it was an anagram too. So I went out to the webs and found an anagram maker and typed his name in to see if I could find anything interesting. I couldn't. Yeah, so, well, so, since it is a theory, you want to save it for theories. Well, I guess, Well, it's not a theorious to who he is. That's just a theory as to like, you know, where the layout the name Lyle Stevic came from,

which is okay, thank you, ma'am. And so there's there's there's something. There was apparently a now defunct website called I Guess Ashley's Um where people went out there to talk about suicide and it wasn't to discourage or get canceling. It was all like exchanging techniques and ideas and encouraging each other. And there was a guy called I think Steven or Stevie or so like that was it, Stephen Steven Steven who talked a lot about hanging himself kind of in a similar way to the way Lyle did.

And then somebody, no, it's not similar, it's identical. Yeah, well it's identical, except apparently Stephen said that he would use a piece of plastic rope like like that that real skinny plastic disposal, Yeah, that kind of stuff. But other than that, it was the same thing down to

the wash cloth. Yeah, and exactly even mentioned that, which is one of the things that one of the reasons that I said what I said, because one of the things he posted was he suggested to use that some of that that cheap that cheap stuff, like like the kind of stuff that they might use to wrap or tie up Christmas trees at home depot. And that's what maybe thinks the plasticine anywhere in hardware stores use it to tie stuff together exactly, But but has mentioned of

home depot. Maybe think, ha, it's kind of too bad they didn't go check over at home Depot to see if maybe he worked over there. But but anyway, but it turns out that Lyle Stavic is an aogram of kills Stevie. Yeah, and so, but but again, you know, again this is sheer speculation. Uh, let's be honestly, It's not as if Stevie was the first person to ever

contemplate or discuss committing suicide in that form. People have been doing it for thousands of years, and so it's I mean, it's not unheard of for somebody to do it in that fashion. Yeah. The reason that that Steven's technique even entered this story, I know there are some people online who take credit for it, but is the actual lead investigator on the case said that he was

aware of Stevens technique in his initial report. And actually, this particular technique isn't unusual, as Steve says, as I've seen lots of other suicides. Not I mean not personally, but you know in my many, many investigations of the Yes, yeah, a lot of people kill themselves this way, more than you would think. The first time I heard about one of these, I thought, wow, that's almost unbelieve, but well,

somebody must have murdered him. But now, now, after after several years of this, I realized it's not at all in common. So that's it for the story. Um, we're going to talk about theories now. The first theory is that he was a foster care kid. I mean, it's possible that this one sense. That's why I put it first. I like to put my least plausible things first. Yeah,

I do the opposite thing that you do, Joe. I mean, I don't think and this isn't to sound so you're thinking he was in foster care when he died, know that he grew up in foster care and that's and for some reason, that's why nobody recognized him. But I feel like more people would recognize him and he would probably have a case worker, and you would think that like some finger yeah exactly. Um So I don't I

don't really like it. But somebody did you come up with this one or somebody else it was it's a dumb theory and this is this is gonna sound like a bash on the Foster system and it is not meant to. But the amount of dental work that he had had done would not have been cheap. And so it doesn't say it's not possible, but it it puts

it right on the edge. I would say. The next theory is that he might have been where I guess the only theories we're talking about is like who wild might have been, right, because we there's not even worth speculation of like really why he killed himself, but we don't have a single shred of reason to be able to come up with that. Now. Yeah, but you know a little spattered in there, but um he really you got to know who he is to find out why

he did it. Really. Um So, the second theory is that he could have been like a migrant worker or a farmer worker, or a logger, some sort of outdoor trade. I don't know why people think this. I think it's the like claid shirt. No, I know why people think this. It's because of the isotope stuff, where it shows that he moved moved across regions within the last year, and so the people are like, well, why would somebody have been traveling that much. They must have been traveling for

some kind of employment. So that's where I know that's where the migrant one comes from. I'm sure it is to it. Also, you know, would if he were like here illegally or anything like that, that would help explain why Again, nobody really there's some renegade Canadian, some kind of renegade Canadian looking for work in America. It could explain, It could explain the weight it lost. The big problem with this one is that those are all outdoor professions.

So there's all kinds of migrant work. Like okay um, when it's fishing season in Alaska, the canneries are chucked full of people working there and then the season ends. Those people are working in a building. There are certain agricultural things where you end up in the cold storage building sorting the pro you know, potatoes or some kind of product produce. I don't know. Not all things that are migrant jobs are in the out of doors. You

can if you're lucky. Get the ones that are actually indoors. They tend to suck as much because it's cold instead of hot. Yeah, those buildings are usually not well heated. No, because they're meant to keep the whatever, the thing that they're harvesting or making is cool to its Yeah. It's not a good very good points. So, but the problem I have with this series it still doesn't explain what the hell happened to his luggage or stuff. I mean, yeah,

and not at all. I don't think any of them do really, well, maybe one, but yeah, and it didn't look like from the shape of his hands. I mean, if you look at his hands, he doesn't look like a logger agricultural worker. Yeah, he doesn't have a lot of muscle mass on him. And really hands don't look rough at all. They don't look rough with the exception of the top callous is um. And he didn't have the you know, the other thing we point out is he didn't have any tan lines. So he spent the

summers indoors probably you know, I don't know. Yeah, you're right, there are some migrant worker jobs, and it would explain why he was coming south in September, But I don't know. I just I don't think this does. It doesn't seem right to me. For some reason, I give it more credence in foster care. Oh yeah, because foster care didn't explain anything. Yeah. Well, we're, you know, doing that thing where we're working from Devin's least to favorite theory. Yeah. Uh.

And you know the weight loss. I guess it could have been due to that, but most often it's kind of attributed to likely bulimia, but maybe just homelessness and poverty. Poverty to me sounds more like he may have been living high on the hog for a while and then

been out of work and cutting back to save money. Mean, he could have, but he had a hundred and sixty bucks and he so he stayed at a hotel that was like nicer, right, I mean, it might have been his last hurrah, you know what I mean, the last couple of bucks. I'm gonna I'm gonna sleep comfortable for this next couple of days. I'm not going to be sleeping in an alleyway, yeah, I think. I Mean. The other problem I have is how clean and in what good condition his clothes and shoes were in. I had

heard his clothes were very clean. They were like almost new. Yeah, they were very well which again for a guy who's been on the road and homeless of stuff, that makes no sense. And there's no launderman as far as I know in a town of two fifty would there be a launderman. I mean probably there would have been a laundromat. But even then, I mean, it's just this general wear and tear that happens on clothes when you've been like, you know, kind of amusing them. And the weight loss.

You know, if he's wearing pants that were too big, they were still like in good condition. And then the thing that always gets me is shoes, Like shoes get all scuffed up and stuff like that pretty quickly. But again they this all could have been stuff that he purchased second hand recently. If you again say the last rahs, like, you know what, I'm gonna wear some nice clothes that are clean and not full of holes for a couple

of days. I'm going to go to the good will, and holy crap, I struck gold and I found some Because you can, at least you used to be able to. Until Ebayers got onto a good will. You could go in there and find little you know, little gold mines. I mean I found lots of stuff that was new. Yeah, good will all the time for really dirt cheap. Yeah, you can find it. They're easy. Well, then, how do

you explain the orthodon che I don't. Yeah, I mean, I mean he could have actually, he could have been raised and from come from a fairly prosperous background and for whatever reason, went out on his own. It's my understanding. The orthodontia was more recent. It wasn't like a teenager because here's the thing that happens with orthodontia. I don't. Did either of you have braces? Yeah, yeah you did so. I had. Um, I had braces for like seven years.

It was a really long time. It probably wasn't actually seven years, but it felt like it. But my teeth, you know, I got my braces off somewhere in high school. And it's been a couple of years since high school and I um two just two or three. But my teeth they're resetting, right, they started moving back to not all the way right, because a lot of the work they did on my mouth was palette works. My mouth

actually fits all my teeth. Um, But the kind of cosmetic work of making them be perfect has started to kind of go back. My teeth actually didn't stay precisely where they were exactly when the braces came off, right, And so I think they can tell by how perfect your teeth are, how you know how long you have not had braces. It seemed like it hadn't. Again, this is just like a nobody's ever come out and said, like, and he had orthodontial with it. I'm not gonna argue

with it because but I don't know. I mean, it seemed to me as though it was more recent than like he had it as a teenager. And they set back. Another reason to suspect that he was not a migrant worker or homeless dude. Yeah, which which fits better with some of our later theories. Yeah, the next one funny pun. I know, again this doesn't explain a whole lot, but there is a theory that he was a m then

a boxer or a boxer or an underground fighter. Um. This is mostly suggested because of those Russell signs on the in the cuts on his knuckles. Yeah. So they're, like I said, most often seen there, they're on specific knuckles. Usually they're on your pointer finger knuckles and your ring finger knuckles, and the way you get them. I'm so sorry to say this, but is Yeah, the reason that you get this is because when you are sticking your fingers down your throat, it's where your teeth hit to

induce a gag reflex. Yeah, to induce the gag reflex to make yourself vomit. It's where your teeth hit your knuckles when your gag reflex kicks in um, and it will they will generally hit the same place the same time, over and over and over again. It will cause calluses and cuts to build up in the same spot on your knuckles. But there is some thing to suggest that you also get calluses like that if you're fighting or if you're doing certain kind of physical labor. He had.

You know what's funny if you look at the photos, I can't remember which hand it is, that they specifically take the photo of it before and after the pointer finger knuckle. Yeah, they both had the marks on him, right, But if you look, he's also got scratches on his wrists. Yeah, they're so I'm I'm not I'm not willing to totally

get behind this because he's other. He's got other wounds well, but they're not necessarily from the same thing in the same activity though, But they're not necessarily from different things either, maybe not. I mean one of the things that one of the reasons I don't like the fighter one is

that they're they're kind of on. If you make a fist and look down at a point, your fist forward, you know, So the forward part is what you would punch somebody with, right, and at the top of the hand that you're looking at is that's where the marks are, is on the top. They're on the back side of the yeah, they're Yeah, and so but if you're fighting, the part that gets the part that gets banged up is the front of the fist, which is not where

these marks are. They're up and around and behind the knuckles. Yeah, this is why I'm not I'm not keen on the whole boxer kind of. I'm also not keen on it either, But I do not think that he saw a fight club. Yeah, sideways, what's the point of getting expressive worth of on ship you can think how to get your teeth on? Yeah, totally, I agree. Um, it's not there's no there's nothing good here. I wrote a bunch of other stuff in this theory, but it's just not it's not good, so it doesn't

really matter. We's not going to talk about it. Another theory areas that he came to America as an unaccompanied miner from a foreign country. Maybe his parents like left the country and forgot to take him with. Yeah, you know, he sent him to this country and we're not able to join him or find him when they got here. Yeah, because that does happen. Yeah, and you know, if he was really like twenty four at least, you know, then

it's true he could have. That would have been a really good explanation of he came from a well off family, you know, got his braces off recently, they sent him over here. They were like, all right, go to America, we'll join you there, and then they lost touch somehow. Maybe the Civil War. Yeah, I don't know, I mean, maybe it was I don't know. Maybe, I mean, I mean, things do happen, I mean, and maybe it wasn't even a minor when he came here. Let's assuming assuming you

came from say, you know, Mexico. Mexico just saw a couple of really stupendous earthquakes to imagine he comes up here looking for work, whatever his family gets killed, you know, in an earth conceivable. You know, the next couple of theories are all tied up around one theory, kind of the one central theme here. And it's because in America, we literally cannot ignore this. Here's like our little disclaimer is, this is not an episode about nine eleven, but let's

talk about eleven. You know what, jet field does not melt steel beams. I mean, it's true, it's true. Yeah, Um again, I don't we don't want to get into any of that. But it is so close after nine eleven. That's why, so close. So actually this this particularly day that the day that he checked in, my mother was

in Victoria, BC, on nine eleven. She had been as she went up there with like three of her high school friends and they all decided, just for fun, for old times sake, they all get together and go to Victoria for a weekend. And they were going to leave on on nine eleven, and guess what, they couldn't they close the border and my mom was stuck up there first for days. She probably she probably passed Lisle on the highway go in the other direction. Body who got

stuck in California. Yeah, thing he flew down there for something, was gonna fly home. He had to he had to buy a car and drive home. Yeah, And that might be one of That's one of the things I wonder about a while, if if maybe he was kind of stuck, you know, I mean for for a few days, because I mean that's only fourteen is only three days after As far as I know, their traffic was down. Border crossings were all shut down. I mean yeah, I mean it was full lockdown mood. It was. Yeah, it was

like it was crazy. I mean, no air traffic. It was the weirdest thingy go outside, there'd be no The only plane you see in the sky would be a military fighter jet. Yeah. Yeah, it was remember it. It was a weird time. It was really weird. But here's some theories on why his suicide might have been attached to nine eleven in some way. Again, this ignores what we think we know about his ethnicity. Anyway, just four warning.

There are some people who very irresponsibly suggest, I think very irresponsibly suggest that Lyle was of Middle Eastern descent and had helped plan the nine of eleven attacks. Why is that irresponsible though, because it's just playing straight up racist saying he must have been Middle Eastern and therefore, because he was from somewhere in that region world, he must have been involved because all Middle Easterners were involved.

And I get that, I get the whole thing that and that, you know, but if you look at him, if you look at the take closely, and that's why I think they should look at his DNA and really try to understand was that this city is since it seems to me that Lyle is probably not from North America because you know, they Yeah, I think he's more from Europe. Yeah, I think, and he could be from

the Middle East. And if you look at the pictures of the hijacker, he actually bears a pretty decent resemblance to Muhammadatta, who was the lead hijacker at nine eleven. I'm not saying it was his brother or his cousin, but would be he could? I mean, if there is absolutely nothing to support that speculation, yeah, it's all speculation,

but there's there There are other things. I mean, the fact that he had absolutely no luggage, note that nobody knows exactly how he got there, why he was there, and one of the things that it really interests me is he got the paper, the local paper, the Sunday paper, And in fact, that might have been why he was pacing the highway on Saturday afternoon, just because it was a Sunday paper. Those usually get delivered on Saturday afternoon.

He might have been waiting for the paper and maybe there was some sort of coded message in the personal ads and you know it was time to and it was basically pulling the plug on you lile, you know, I'll kill yourself or something because you know too. Yeah, and again that's all that's all pure speculation on my part. But there's there's some strange stuff about that guy, like, for example, he had exactly enough money to pay his hotel bill, plus just like eight bucks left over and change,

just enough money to pay his hotel bill. Some people expected NY used than a t M. There's an a t M or two in town. But of course if he did that, where the hell is his a t M card? And I don't even know if anybody if the local police check a t M activity to see if there had been any and and just look at the names, you know, who's who who go to the bank and see who was not a local that used as a t M that would be useful information. I don't.

I had no idea if they did that or not. Obviously, getting rid of your a t M card, your wallet, your passport, all that stuff would be very very easy to do. And uh, you know, and so but sticking a purple bag and tossing the trash. Yeah, but but it is interesting to me that he had precisely enough money within a few bucks to cover his bill, which was nice of them, then not leave them, to not leave them holding the bag, and so again I don't.

I don't think this theory is completely racist and out landish. It's fairly unsupported. But then again, when you think about some of those things about the story, like I said, the total lack of any luggage, the fact that he had exactly enough money to cover that bill, I mean, there's some things about it that are really really interesting, and I really think they need to find out what

part of the world he really came from. Although not to say that if he was ethnically an Arabic, he's not an American, of course he is, or it could be or Canadian or something. Yeah, I just don't. I don't like it. Well, I think I think that just because it happened around nineteen nine eleven, Yeah, I don't think that that necessarily tie it means anything, but based on some of the other weird hinky stuff that happened with this case, well maybe and and of course it

could be coincidental. It could have been something totally unrelated tone eleven. But you know, he's still see a Russian spy and they and they give him the order to, you know, either either take out the president or kill yourself. He says, okay, were something I don't know, But yeah, I mean I think that there are more sympathetic reasons why he that are tied up with nine eleven, that he might have killed himself that don't end with him

being a terrorist. Yeah. Yeah, Um. One of them would be that his family could have died in the nine eleven attack. That would also explain why nobody was able to say yeah, like, oh, that's because his his picture has been pretty wildly circulated, wildly widely circulated. Yeah, I mean,

it's it's again. It's it's like the Laurier caref. You know, it turns out that one was solved, But you know, there's a lot of people looking at this picture and really nobody said, you know anything, So that could explain that. It could also explain, you know, maybe he did have some kind of familial connection to Amanda Park. Sorry, I

forgot where we were at for a second. And you know, he and his entire family traveled over there, and then they all died in the nine eleven attack, and he made his way back, you know, slowly to where they were from, and you know, I don't know, maybe maybe they vacationed there when he was a kid. Yeah, wonderful family vacation. Yeah. Yeah. Um there's also a theory I don't like this one as much. Um that he was

supposed to have died in nine eleven. That whole, like all of that Post secret, you know, well, that whole thing is I'm pretty sure art project. Yeah, I think post secret. Which one is that post secret? It's the everybody who knew me before eleven thinks I'm dead. That's not post secret. That's just a secret that was sent into Post secret. Right. Well, that's what I'm sorry it always gets it's always referred to as the post secret secret. I believe. Is that the Yeah? Yeah, but yeah, I'm

pretty sure that is something creative. Actually I said that, I'm confessing now. Yeah, I was going to say, explains why like nobody like we don't know your family or anything to take that one off the list, to do you wonder why you never met my parents for example. Yeah, So that's it for the nine eleven theories, like any of them, except for maybe like the family died at

nine eleven. And I think it's a you know, yeah, I mean, but I think it's it's worth a look just because of the coincidence and everything around the around the day. But then again, there are other people died and committed suicide around the same time too. Yeah, that's absolutely true. Yeah, yeah, but it's worth a look, especially, I guess I think if it turned out as ethnicity was Middle Eastern in origin, well, it would be worth

pondering a little bit anyway. His ethnicity though, I mean, I don't want to beat that horse because it's kind of his getting there. But his ethnicity could have literally been one of at least a dozen things. That's that's why it would be. It would be kind of it would be kind of nice to find out because, like I said, he looks totally like he could totally be American, Indian at Italian. Dude, you know what he actually looks like. It could be from all kinds of parts. At times,

I think he looks Slavic. I think he looks exactly like you know when they do those progressions of like what what's everybody going to look like in a hundred years, And it's just like this amalgamation every don't know, it's not as you age, it's the amalgamation merged. He looks like that to me, it I mean, he really just looks like it's just this jumble of like a bunch of stuff. But that's just me. Um, okay, So the only other theory we have is murder. Oh I like

this one, of course, you always like this one. You know. The things that people give to support this are he may not have been alone Sunday night, the complete lack of personal belongings, like you know, his room could have been yeah clean, like they could have taken a backpack that he might have had. Um, can you I'm sorry, you're gonna need to give me a little detail. I think I know how this is supposed to have played out, but how was the murder supposed to have been carried out.

I mean he was, he's in a hanging, and it does. It did not appear that there was any struggle marks on his body. Yeah, and that think at your marks anywhere other than where the belt was. So that's why I'm trying to understand, like how this he was murdered theory has anything behind it other than it must be well two things. One thing that I did not mention before but I will mention now is that his system was completely clean. He had no alcohol, tobacco, or drug

in his system, so he wasn't that. But convincing someone to kill himselves is kind of murder, Okay, So it's not that somebody hung him there and then held him down till he died. I don't think that. I have definitely seen some people online saying he must have been drugged with some sort of well they were like, oh, it just didn't show up in the top. You don't really know what they're checking for the toxicology. Yeah, maybe somebody could have gassed in with carbon monoxide from a car.

I don't know if they checked for that or not. Who knows. Yeah, So I don't know. I don't think this theory works particularly well The only other thing that can come up in evidence for this would be the weird discrepancies in the handwriting, which is show was talking a little bit about this earlier. Yeah, well, well, the discrepancy in this sign in note I think can be explained pretty easily because if you look at it where he put his name in his address down, it's a

piece of paper. I think it was like the back of an envelope. Actually it was. Obviously it was a very formal set up at this little bent. Yes, so it was. Actually it was the it was at the front of an envelope, and then that was where they would put the cash that he had paid for the night of the hotel. And then any time anybody would go to pay more towards the room, they would just

keep putting it in the envelope. And when they checked out, they would look an envelope and see and they would look an envelope and see, okay, you've paid for three nights, you were here three nights, Great, you're good to go. Yeah, right, So it was actually on an envelope, Yeah, it was. And so you can see where somebody has written three lines there written date, name, address, state, and three lines and then you see laws handwriting law static from ten

nineteen South Progressive Street, and then blow up. I say it says I d and then somebody to the writer that has written Meridian Comma Idaho. It's the same handwriting. It's not Lyle's handwriting, but it's the same handwriting as whoever it was that wrote date state and date name, address and state on the left. So that could have been the clerk took it from him and said, wait, wait, what is what what? No, that's what I mean. I'm

not saying it's suspicious. That's what I'm saying is That's what I'm saying is the clerk said, what's the city? And the clerk wrote it, and the clark was the person, and so people say those discrepancies are suspicious and not at all. I would agree with that, But then again, too, um, you know, I don't know Meridian, Idaho, or maybe the clerk just knew it was just not I don't know. You can't because there was no zip code. Yeah, if there were zip code, i'd say they you know, the

investigators wrote it because they knew. But the one thing I will say is I do think the handwriting. I think he was masking his handwriting, and that explains this. But I will say that the suicide, the note that just SAIDs suicide in the trash looked pretty different to

me than the handwriting that said for the room. Well, and I got to say it though, the like my handwriting can depend on my mood, my posture, Like if I'm standing over a table writing versus sitting down at the table writing, all that stuff affects that how much

coffee I've had, that kind of thing. Yeah, I agree that affect your handwriting, But yeah, I mean the only other thing is that that people say that because he had written suicide on the little piece of paper that he that was somebody he had written home or something like that. But I don't I don't know. I would

think that if he had written anything else. You know, you always see this in the movies occasionally this is real is somebody writes on the little pad of paper that's in the hotel room and then pulls it away and they can see the impressions in the next the next couple of sheets of paper. But you would think that they would have looked for that thing to see, well, did anybody write on this? So you think they would have.

But since we don't know what he was doing for two days, he could have written it somewhere else, or he could have gone and bought a different you know, just a nice card or something like that. So we at the end of the day, this is just a totally unsatisfying case that we've talked about for an hour and a half. It isn't satisfying. I would like to see them take the step analysis and broaden into the entire world, to what other parts of the world he

might have lived in previously, you know. And uh, another not eleven connection is perhaps he was a Saudi citizen and his death was just just kind of because you know, I did come up from actually a fairly well to do background, but it was kind of a coincidence. And or maybe he was just worried about the future of

his country after it turned up. The nineteen of the Guys Night, like most of the hijackers for Saudi Nationals and Saudi Arabia of course, is a participant memoration in interpoal and of course his fingerprints and all the identify find stuff was sent to Interpol. Nothing came back be that it could be at the saudiast for example, got the favor for him and they ran and oh oh yeah it's ted. Oh that would be embarrassing after all these other things. Let's just tell him we've got nothing

that doesn't exist, right, no match now, sorry guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's just super unsatisfying and really sad. Yeah. I mean it would be nicest if we could find out who Lyle was and you know, put a name to his face and everything like that. So if you know's got some family, Yeah, if you know Ile. Obviously you're not talking, so we're not going to ask you for an email. Yeah, don't send us an email. Don't actually do please because I really i'd really love you.

Don't want to read your dumb email. Um, well, do you guys have anything else? I got nothing else on this No, unfortunately not. Yeah, if we want to see some of our research that we did, um, you can find that as well as links to buying merch You can also listen to our episodes. You can also find entire comprehensive episode list on our website. That website is, of course, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can listen

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everything pretty much. Yeah we did that. Yeah we're good. Yeah. Okay, So all of that having been said, UM, I'm going to get out of here. We'll tech you guys later. Back on the bus for me. Bye guys. Bye.