Thinking Sideways: Long Island Serial Killer

because somebody whose initials are Steve. Uh. But my volume way down, so sorry about that. Technical difficulties. Obviously we've got that figured out, ships, So sorry. It sounds a little rough and weird. We did the best we could, but like I said, won't happen again. I promise, I'm sorry and everything. So here we go, Hey everybody, and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve as always, joined by Devin and Joe, and once

again we have another mystery for you. This week we are going to be talking about the Long Island serial Killer a k a. The gil Go Beach serial Killer a k a. The crazlist serial killers. Are we talking about a serial killer? We are talking about a serial killer, and just a quick ward of warning to everybody, it's a serial killer who focuses primarily on women, so we're gonna be talking about the killing of women and a child.

The story involves drug use and prostitution, so if those are triggers, please turn us all off now, or if you've got little ears a k a. Children around, probably not the time to have this one on. Save us for another time. In other words, it's the kind of episode that most of you weirdos love exactly. It kind of is um And speaking of weirdos, this story was suggested by a couple of our listeners. Uh this was under the different names. It came through a couple of times.

I found it on the list, but Jeannette and Renee are the first ones that had it on the list. So let's do a quick overview of the story, because this one is actually kind of a big Long onelve A lot of dead bodies. That's about all you need to know our start. Our story revolves around the discovery

of several sets of remains. About a dozen women were found on the south side of Long Island, New York between two thousand ten and two thousand eleven, and the bodies were found primarily on the Southern Barrier Island, which is Oak Island, though a few remains were found on Fire Island, which is to the east, and then some were also found further in in the town of I believe it's Mannerville is the proper pronunciation there. The bodies that were found belonged to women who had been missing

since between roughly six to two thousand and ten. There's some weak connections between them, but aside from their occupations and some particular habits that involve substances that are illegal there, there isn't a whole lot to connect these women, well, not not as a whole. That among the sets of remains, there was a lot to connect some smaller subsets. Subsets, yes, and and that's why we're gonna get into the story here, and this one I've kind of organized a little bit

different than I've done them in the past. I've actually broken this into what I'm going to refer to as chapters, because there are several chapters and we've got a lot of players, so we should probably just jump right in. Yeah, this tone in front of me. Is should be divided into chapters? Well, if I listed it in bullet points, it would be ten pages more. That's why I do that. Make it ten pages more. So you looked like you

have a bigger script. Okay, good to know. Alright. Chapter one, we're going to talk about what I refer to as the catalyst disappearance. So a woman by the name of Shannon Gilbert, who was twenty four years old. Her family, by the way, lived in or lives in Ellenville, New York. But Shannon was an adult at the time. She's twenty four, she didn't live in that town with her family. Instead,

she I've seen several different places that she lived. She lived actually in New York City, or she lives somewhere in New Jersey. But at the time she was living with her boyfriend whose name was Alex Did Alex. I believe Alex did pretty sure that he had an idea based on some calls that he made later on about what's going on here. But on the first of May two thousand and ten, Shannon went to meet a client.

That client's name was Joseph Brewer and he lived on Oak Island, and she had a driver take her there that night. His name was Michael Pack. So Shannon and Brewery they had talked ahead of time. They had agreed that she was going to go to his house for sex. Uh. She had at this point been by my best guess prostitute for about a year. Uh. Sorry, this might be a dumb question, Um, Pack. Was he like her personal driver all the time? Was he just like a random

taxi driver? Yeah? No, Michael Pack was a fairly regular driver for her. It doesn't kind of like a security escort of Yeah. The funny thing is is that, you know what Pack wasn't really like I would consider a security escort a guy who would hang out and be nearby for most of the time. That wasn't the case with Michael because what he did is he he dropped Shannon off at Brewer's house and then he left. I believe, Yeah, And I believe that's because Brewer was going to pay

for many hours of her companionship. Thank you. Companionship is the term I was looking. Yes, Um came to regrets his association with her, didn't he He He did kind of here, Um because when from from his accounts, from Brewer's accounts, at first, you know, things were fine for the first couple of hours. He said they never actually had sex, but instead they were they were doing drugs together basically

the entire time. Um, now, there's some unconfirmed reporting on something I'm gonna talk about here, and you're actually gonna find a lot of unconfirmed reporting in the story. But it is reported that the pair Brewer and Shannon went down the street to another house to which was the resident of that house was the doctor Peter Hackett, and the doctor had drugs, and they bought more drugs to continue their drug fueled evening. Can't confirm that or not.

I think that well, the hard party, they're not talking. Their stories have changed, like, well, I don't know. I just find it hard to believe that Brewer would confess to go and buying a illicit drugs from the doctor. I'm having a hard time time accepting that. Well, and that's the thing, is said. Brewer has been really honest with he's been He's just done. It's the cops said I want you to do this. He did it like he complied to all requests from the police, and he

didn't hide the fact. I mean, I don't know that the cops ever put any charges against him for having an escort coming to his house. He was very blatantly hiring the service of a prostitute. Yeah, I guess it seems like to me that if you know, somebody comes here, Doran says, Um, hey, we heard this woman was with you last night. Hey, it turns out she's missing. And then you know, a couple of weeks later or whatever,

they say, Oh, it turns out she's horrifically been murdered. Um. Maybe you would say, okay, yeah, the drug part, yes, um, But here's the rest of it. And I had nothing to do with that. Last time I saw her, she was alive. Right. I will give you literally all of the information. I don't want you to think I'm hiding anything from you. But on the other hand, that's also

something a really smart criminal would do. True, that's up. Yeah, And and here's exactly what happens, is that you know whether they did or did not go to the doctor's house. After several hours, Brewer calls pack because Shannon is upset and acting, as I've seen it from his description, crazy, She's she's not happy, and she wants to leave. There's no history of like bipolar disorder. Or anything like that with her. I don't remember anything. I mean, there's so

many players in here, I can't remember the specifics of that. Okay, but like that, but I mean, let's let's let's not look at you know, major underlying causes. She's high, if she is truly as he says, they are doing drugs for hours on end, she's very, very heavily under the influence at his point. But but what happens is, you know,

he calls pack, Pack shows up. He starts that, he gets out of the car, and apparently Shannon runs out of the house, stops, sees Pack, turns the other direction and runs away from him and starts beaten feet through the through the neighborhoods now. And this was like early hours of the mornings, like fo yeah, yeah, it's like four in the morning something like that. She's knocking on doors and yeah, and and so what happens here is that, you know, Brewer just turns around and goes back in

his house. He's done, He's finished with this whole deal. But Packaged there around looking for Shannon. In the meantime, Shannon is running around the neighborhood banging on doors. Some of the residents. Well, okay, so most of the residents they just called nine one. They didn't actually open their doors. There is one person who says they opened the door and they let her in, but she didn't stick around long enough to get help before she split again. She

just took off. But Shannon, she she does call one her. Her call to dispatch evidently came in at four am, so this is five am, so she's been up all night and she starts making statements that are they're trying to kill me and they're after me. Now, obviously the dispatcher, trying to figure out what's going on, ask where are you?

At which point it becomes very apparent that Chinna didn't know exactly where she was, and I mean in the in the ground, and not in just the specifics of what intersection you're at, but where on the island are you? Because she gave a completely different town or island name. She didn't really know where she was. She didn't pay attention. Apparently I have to guess she was so loaded that yeah.

But what happens is, unfortunately she gives a location that four versus the dispatcher to transfer her call to a different dispatcher, because of jurisdiction. In other words, she was she said, she was basically in what amounts to another county, so the another county set of police had to take care of it. Yeah. Yeah, And there's been a lot of criticism of this, and I to a point, I don't criticize the nine on one dispatcher because they can

only operate on the information that they're given. Group. Yeah you can. I mean, you can only do so much much as you can do with the information. Yeah. Yeah, you're reliant upon that. But Shannon was on the phone with nine on one for a total of twenty three minutes before her call ended. Yeah, it's a very long call. Now, I know part of that. She was apparently on hold for several minutes between you know, when she was getting transferred. I know that accounts for a part of it. But

eventually her call ends. Doesn't sound like she just said okay by It sounds like the call just dropped. I'm guessing that based on the descriptions I've read. I haven't actually heard the tape because the tape isn't publicly available go figure, so it's hard to say exactly how she sounded. I've read accounts that vary, so anywhere from she was panicked too incoherent or she was loaded versus being, you know, stone cold sober. I've heard different descriptions of her her

state on that call, so I don't know. Um. There's also talk that there were voices in the background. Now, was that pack calling to her? Was that while she was at this one neighbor's house before she beat feet and got up I got out of there. I don't know. And I've never heard that pin down anywhere people and yelling at her to shut up. Yeah, I mean, you know what's going on, lady, cut it out? What's deal? I mean, yeah, no idea. But what we do know is that she she, like I said, she caused a

whole bunch of calls to nine one on. The police ended up coming to the area. That it took them forty five minutes to respond. So people have criticized that, as people always criticize response times. That's I mean, it's silly. The police have a lot to do. Yeah, especially in

New York. They're going to kind of triage that is, I don't know triage is the right word or not, but they're gonna response to the things that are most important to least, probably saying like, there's a crazy lady walking down our street yelling doesn't take press shot exactly right. Of course, by the time the cops get there, she's gone. H The last people to see her worse those residents that we that we know of anyway, unless something else

is going on here. But she was last seen, according to the residence, somewhere between Anchor Way, which was the street that Brewer lived on, and Larboard Court, which is an intersecting street, Uh, several blocks down. That's that's the last we know whuns on that island. They're just basically one street town. Well, it's a suburb, it's this This where she was at was kind of a gated community suburb. So it really was very small. So it wasn't as if she could have gone just a massive distance in

any way. She Plus she was on a long, narrow island. Well, anybody barrier, it's a very skinny little island. Shannon's story, officially, in the narrative of the Long Island Cereal Killer ends there for a while. But I'm just gonna go ahead and jump ahead in time and finish up the story of Shannon. Yeah, just to stay with her for the rest of this because there's there's some here and and it will help for when we get to everything else

later on. The police had searched around Brewer's house, and they had searched in the surrounding area, and they kept looking around, but there their search went east and west, because, as we talked about, it's a it's a narrow spit of an island. It's not very big. It's a clarify. Brewer himself never called nine one, nor did pack correct correct. It was just Shannon and then neighbors. He didn't really know what's going on. Yes, okay, yeah, I just wanted

to clarify. Yep, you're absolutely right, and I can see why Brewer wouldn't do it as far as he was concerned. He handed off to the driver and it's problem. Yeah. Um, so what the police do is they start spreading east and west. Well, what you need to know is just to the east of Anchor Way and Larboard Court there's

a giant marsh. It's really big, and it it extends all the way to Ocean Parkway, which is the east west thoroughfare across the island, and then goes all the way to the Robert Moses Causeway, which is the main north south route which takes you through Fire Island and then eventually onto actually Long Island. When they were when they started searching, you said kind of near Brewer's house?

Was it? Were they searching near Brewer's house because they knew he was involved at that point, or were they searching in that neighborhood because that's where she had last been seen. That was their last known place because when she took off, Pat didn't know where she started looking the police had found out that she was at Hewers and the pack was involved, correct, Okay, yeah, I just wanted to clarify that as well. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely interesting

timeline stuff. Yeah, no, And the timeline on this is is a little difficult. It's because again, as we get farther and there's gonna be so much going on. But the vegetation in the March that I was talking about, it is by all accounts, obscenely dense and very difficult to get through and navigate. And at this time of year, this is in the beginning or in the midst of the growing season, so the police couldn't actually search that and they were like, listen, we can't go in there

until it's the winter months. Now, she disappears in the middle of We're now going to jump forward to December of eleven, which is a year and a half later they actually start. Yeah, I know, Devin just gave me a funny look. Yeah, there's a huge disparity because they serve they can't do anything. Shannon's mom was a huge, huge factor in the search continuing for her, and there's some other things that come up that then prompted the police to keep searching. I'm willing to say I don't

blame the dispatcher. I don't blame anyone one for not showing up. But a year and a half, guys, well, you know, it's uh yeah, I don't know. It takes a long time to find bodies, it seems like. But I mean, you know, so she disappeared in May and they said, Okay, we've got to wait until things peer out. It's like, all right, so you wait those but they had actually been searching and they found some other stuff. But no, they didn't think that. They didn't think that

necessarily she had disappeared and died. She is a She is not officially a missing person. She is an adult of her own means she could very well have flagged a ride and driven away with somebody and said, you know what, I'm I'm tired of living this life and I'm just moving on. Okay, they don't know that. Times I've forget that we're talking about adults here. Okay. So December two eleven, right, Um, So they go and they start searching through that marsh. A year and a half

later and they started they starting there. They find her purse with her idea that they find her phone, They find her shoes and her jeans, and they keep going in and eventually they find her very badly decomposed remains year and a half of the march exactly. It sounds gross. Yeah, Well, and there's there's a lot of conjecture over her her cause of death. The initial ruling is, uh, something that I haven't seen in a long time, which is death

by misadventure and drowning death. My misadventure is just a strange way to call it. That's what I want my cause of death, my misadventure. I want. I want them to be death by a really awesome adventure. Well that's misadventure. Yeah, neither one works for me. I swear I'm up to no good. So there because of the state of her body, there wasn't a whole lot to do testing on far it was there, her phone, shoes, and her jeans. I don't have a I don't have a distance. I mean,

I know that it was. It wasn't more than a mile in from where she her stuff was found, that her body was found, but I've I've never plotted the exact distance. It's not too far in. But it's a marsh. That's the hard part. Yea. They were able to find part of it because of the time of year, and it's affected by tides, so the waters coming up and down. So had they come in there, you know, six or eight hours later, they might not have found her remains.

But they did some testing. They did testing because they were trying to figure out what's going on. And initially the initial emmy, the medical examer who worked on all of this, said that she didn't die of a drug reaction, and odd bit supposedly she didn't have any drugs in her system, which is completely opposite of the whole thing

that Brewer was saying. Wells left, well, that's what I don't know how much soft tissue there was, and that might be why he says that is that, you know, it takes a long time for that stuff to to be in such doses that you could find it in the harder cartilages and bones that are left over from a body. So presuming that there was a very minimal amount of soft tissue left, which is why the test didn't reflect any of it, I would think she would

have been just a skeleton pretty personally. I think everything everything out there would have been nibbling on hers. Yeah, but anything that's worth testing is probably gone by then. Yeah, And I believe that's probably what what why it came out the way it was. But a second review of the body was done, uh, and that was, by the way, prompted by her mother Mary, who had that done about a year or so later I think it was or

several years actually. But the secondary review concluded that Shannon had died of strangulation, and that was based on damage that was done to one of the small bones in her neck. The problem is is that that's not a positive proof because at least one or two of the other bones that were directly next to that one, we're missing, like some small critter probably carried it away, or it's sinking to the mocker or who knows. So it's not

iron clad that she was strangled. Well, you know, it seems unlikely because out there in the middle of nowhere and this in this possible suburb kind of thing, you know, I mean, somebody's just gonna jump out of the bushes and choke her to death. I mean, maybe somebody wanted

to just shut the hell up. Well no, no, The thing, you know, Joe, what what this is getting at, is that, based on what we're gonna talk about in about two paragraphs continuing on, is this was an attempt to link her death to the other bodies that are found, and a number of those bodies, if not all, are believed to have been strangled. So it's in a it's it's a buyer I considered a bias. It's you know, oh well, all these other ones were strangled, So look for signs

of strangulation. Anything this could indicate. It becomes this is definitely an indicator of strangulation. Yeah, don't that's how that happened. I don't buy it. I think given her condition when last scene, she probably drowned herself. Yeah, I mean, it's it's hard to say death by misadventures is the most

that I'm willing to commit to. Um I called Shannon the catalyst because the events surrounding her disappearance are what causes a much more thorough search of the entire area, and that is what brings to everyone's attention all of the other bodies. Ums were really thrilled to find out. Yeah, them for a dumping ground. Yeah. And and by the way, Shannon still to this day is not so I've I've said it was the Long Island serial killer, Gilgo Beach,

whichever you want to call it. She is not officially considered one of the victims, right because he did killing elsewhere, you know, and dumped the bodies there. Well, and that's the thing is that again, Mary was I believe, trying to push for the idea of she was killed and then dumped there just like the other bodies had been.

But um so that is the end of the Shannon, except that there is one bad bit of follow up, which is that sadly, as I was doing the research for this, which was about a month or so ago, that was about the time that unfortunately, Mary died of violent death um, Shannon's other sister, one of her other sisters, Sarah, apparently she's schizophrenic, was in an episode and something happened, and Mary, I believe, was stabbed. At last I knew Sarah was in in custody. There's not a whole lot

of details out there. So it's a terrible thing for a family that already gone through all that freaking tragedy and everything that had happened. But so that's that's why I wanted to kind of finish up with Shannon. So we're gonna then move into the second chapter, which is the Burlap Victims. So, as we had talked about before, the police had been searching for Shannon, and they've been looking in the area and eventually, you know, after a certain amount of time, they had to call off the

search for her. Now there's a police officer named John. I want to say the last name is pronounced Malia. But he was one half of a canine unit. Mal Yeah, what could be one of the two. But John was one half of a police unit. His partner was a German shepherd named Blue. I'm pretty sure it's pronounced blue, and he he knew about the search for Shannon. He was pretty sure he had come to the conclusion that she wasn't gonna be found alive, and he said, well, this is a great way to do some on the

job training. Uh, this is the official story, by the way, So he would go. He was walking up and down the road in that area over the course of the summer in the fall of It could be that he just liked to walk the dog there, but he was using that officially as training to search for her while they were in that area. As winter months came, vegetation starts dying back. They can go farther and farther into

the veget where the vegetation used to be. And on the eleventh of December, Blue triggered on a site in the brush, which is just off the side of Ocean Parkway in Gelgo Beach. What Blue had found, after digging just a little bit in the ground, was the skeletal remains of a woman whose name was Melissa Barthelemy. And like I said, she was just a little bit under the surface and her body was yeah shallow grave, and her body was wrapped in burlap. Never found in deep

graves rarely. Usually that's actually very intentional when they're found in deep graves typically, but over some of course, obviously, the police swarm in the area and over the next two days they start scouring the area and they find three more bodies, each one wrapped in burlap. And the bodies belong to Marine Brainard Barnes, Megan Waterman, and Amber Lynn Costello. And how far they were pretty closely budged talking from each other. I would say a few yards

if I remember correctly. But again it's it's so many sites. Because this is the first of several dump sites that we're going to go through, I believe that this was the tightest packed bunch. Uh. The next seth that we're gonna talk about, we're more spread about. Maureen was twenty five and she had last been seen on the ninth of July two thousand seven. She was she was seen in two seven. Yes, Melissa was twenty four and had been missing since the tenth of July two thousand nine.

Megan was twenty two and had been missing since the sixth of June. And Amber was twenty seven and had been missing since the second of September. And what else these women have in common, Well, there's actually quite a few commonalities. All four were prostest suits. They apparently had all been using Craigslist to advertise their services. I've read that all but Maureen had also been using another website which is called back Page, which I'd never heard of

and never used. But when I understand it's it's it's very similar to Craigslist. I went to back Page, thinking, oh God, I'm going to get a virus on my computer. Turns that it's just a listing site, just like Craigslist is.

It's not sex stuff. That's yeah. Um, Amber was at the time unknown heroin user, and it's believed that all of the women at the time were using most likely cocaine, maybe not habitually, but they were cocaine users, probably also using marijuana, which you know, if it's it's the business, it lends itself to that they all have. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah.

They all were very physically similar, and that kind of have this an idea that maybe whoever was doing this had a type, because they also were all very similar. They were all under five ft six inches tall or a hundred and sixty seven centimeters or sixteen point five hands, uh and about a hundred and ten pounds which is equivalent to about fifty km or seven point eight five stones or less. And they were all blonde at the time, or at least had blonde in their hair, so highlights

stuff like that. And and like I said this, this is pointed to as something to say that whoever did this had a quote unquote type. Okay, although I wouldn't say so much about the high because I think, you know, there isn't the average height of a North American female woman like five four Well, some of these ladies were.

Most of them were five six and under. So most of them, actually several of them I thinking was like four ten, Yeah, so they were they were all there was no it wasn't as if there was a five and nine inch tall woman in the mix. And they were all under a hundred ten pounds, right, very very thin. Actually, if you want to find a woman a strangler and overpower, you don't want to be tackling some six foot amazon. Probably, Yeah,

we need to not go in his basement. He says things like that with too much really scares the crap out of me. But like for reference, right, like I'm five and I don't weigh a hundred and ten pounds like, and I don't think I'm searching for compliments here, and so like for reference, like if you subtract pounds from me, even ten pounds, even if even if I'm a hundred twenty pounds, like that's a tiny person, and then add

a couple inches to me, those are really like pretty scary. Yes, And if you have an average male anything, an average male in this country is five ft nine and a hundred eighty pounds, is that sixty to eighty I think I'm ballparking here area, But that that it's not hard to overpower somebody who is that much shorter and that

much lighter than you. So the point is it is pointing out that maybe there was a type um when really, you know, sixteen and a half hands is just like yeah, and I had mentioned this a little bit we were talking about Shannon, is that these women were all their cause of death was all strangulations. Yeah, So that's why I brought that up. We were talking about the secondary examination of Shannon's body, of course, was not found in Burlapp right, correct. Now, all these women when they disappeared,

they just evaporated. They were gone, with the exception of Melissa because one week after her disappearance, her fifteen year old sister Amanda started getting calls from her cell phone. But it wasn't Melissa, and she received it's about I think it's a total of eight calls. And it happened over the course of about a month and a half. And this caller got slowly more and more aggressive, and

it's reported to have been playing with her. That's what the reporting will always refer to it as Melissa is the one who disappeared in two thousand nine. Yes, okay, I mean I'm just thinking, like, why would you do that? Right? And I guess in my estimation, I guess two thousand nine. And I'm trying to think. I think I had like an iPhone. Most people had second iPhone. I mean they weren't. It wasn't smartphone mania, but but everybody had a cell at that point. Like, did you think Melissa had like

a picture of her fifteen year old sister sleeve? Well, but it could be as simple as little sister Amanda was what it said in her phone book? Could have said that, or could have it could have been that he kept her alive for a while and just got some information. Yeah, I I don't know, and what we do we do know is that we're pretty sure that it wasn't just some random crank because of the things

that the caller said. Um. Now that the caller always got off the phone within three minutes, so calls were not traceable. Um, but they do say that, well, they couldn't get him to a specific exact address. I know, I know, and we're gonna were I know, and we're

gonna talk about that shortly. But they did. They tracked some calls to Time to Square, but obviously nothing happened about it because as the police rushed into Times Squared looking around for somebody on their cell phone, they saw everybody. Uh so they they specifically ran in all the porn shops they did. I understand there's a lot of porn

shops in Times Squares. I I didn't know this, but apparently according to this yeah, or at least enough for the police to be like, oh, yeah, it's it's this one that when this one is where you're gonna go. I don't know. But the reason I said that we know that this person couldn't have just been some random crank is that on the I think it was the last call the killer made or the caller, I should say, not the killer, but the caller made the statement of

I'm watching your sister's body rots. It such a wonderful thing to say to fifteen year old girl, right, yeah, clean, yeah, we real. And anybody who strangles prostitutes probably not like the cream of the probably not exactly the most compassionate personal And actually, I guess I have one point of clarification, because I know we're drawing to the end of this chapter. But do you know you may not know this, this may not be public knowledge, but the bodies that were

wrapped in bur lap. Were they wrapped in bur lap when they were totally together and then there they rotted in the burlap? Or were they did they have some did they decompose and then get thrown into the burn lap and then thrown in the grown or were they like totally bodies. And I don't know for sure. I've gotten the impression from all of the stuff that's out there that the bodies were wrapped in bur lap upon

their dumping. And the reason that I think that is the the newest body she had only been missing since September and this is December, so that's two or three months and she was in bur lap, So I have to presume that they were in the burlap when they were put in the ground. And it's the way I understand it is that they were though they were deposited at different times, they were in the burlap when they were putting into the ground, and they would have been

relatively fresh. But that's a that's a supposition on my part based on all the stuff that i've That's my question, right, is because if she was getting all these calls and they were going on for like a month, and the caller at the end of the months that I'm watching, your sister's sicko has got her in the back room somewhere, just start watching it raw then wrapped in this But I mean, it's not really that important interesting, But yeah, I don't know. What I'm interested in knowing is the

police are trying to trace these calls. Did they record the calls? I mean, you would think they were likely, But why would they ever release those to the public, especially since I could think of a case I could think of a great reason to listen to the public. You might release tidbits, well, and you don't have to release everything, but but at least some someones that don't give away critical information, because if you had it all

over the TV news, in the radio, somebody might nice voice. Um, it just seems like kind of an obvious thing to do that. I will disagree with that because I have heard so many people on the phone who sounded like other people I knew. I mean, you know, I work at a call center, and like people will be like, Steve is obviously this dude from this other radio show, and we're like, or what's his name from It's always sunny in Philadelphia, or Joe Joe is the one who

gets you. Sir. Would be in jail so fast if they put those out, because everybody says you sound like everybody else with any kind of baritone voice. I know, I know. I'm I'm thinking like more like somebody who knows somebody really well, like if you know you know, but you know you work with them every day. Yeah, I just I'm just saying that they're they're totally obviously at a dead end on this, and I would say that Mary, that would be a good Hall Mary play.

I think believing that is a trap that you were setting yourself up for for a whole bunch of leg words. Oh, they never do. They gotta get a lot of false leaves, for sure. But I'm just saying, if they really want to solve this, I think that that's about the only way they're going to be able to do it. Stanford

Chapter three. Chapter three, I've titled the Dismembered Victims um and I think that it probably goes without saying that upon the discovery of the four bodies in Burlap, the news media went guando crazy and swarmed the area and probably like sort of like you know, prompted a lot more searching. Oh yeah, it did prop more searching. But it also they put out there that it was all

caps obvious that there was a serial killer at work here. Well, yeah, the you know this, this forced the cops, as you're saying, to kind of step up their game, and uh, they kept looking around much much like the the issue with Shannon. The cops had to you know, stop for part of the growing season, and then in the winter months they would start to do their stuff again. But um, so

they like bad weather, bad weather. When was sandy came No, no, this was before Sandy came through this and two thousand and eleven is when we're moving into But yes, and he was two thousand twelve. It was it was Neumber two thousand eleven. Okay, it was there for Sandy. How was it non event where I was? So the police kept searching and after the initial discovery they had waited a couple of months and then so again that industrial

discovery was December. We moved into March of eleven when things were defrosting, and the police start their search on the twenty nine of March, and depending on the source, either that very day or the following day they found they found a partial set of remains, and that was a head, hands, and four arms um and those, by the way, were linked to the torso of a body of a woman named Jessica Taylor. She, by the way, was these parts were not wrapped in burlap. Jessica was

was also a prostitute. And the torso had already been found, right, torso had been found. The torso had been found in two thousand and three on the twenty six of July in the town of Manorville, New York, which is it's like ten or twelve miles away from Yogo Beach Ballpark is the crow flies. The parts they found. Were they just bo Yeah, they were partial remains. The state of them is not listed, but I would imagine that after that amount of time, we're basically talking about skeletal remains.

I think it's fair to say that any time the police say partial remains, they just mean two gruesome. For public consumption, probably for most of us, the whole idea of chopping up a dead body is, you know, kind of unthinkable. Let's go, let's move on. Okay, So we're gonna move on to the fourth of April of at which point three more bodies are found. Uh. These bodies are found deeper in the brush, off the side of the road, and they are also not wrapped in burlap

like Jessica. One of the sets of remains found that day were partial. They were also linked to an unknown woman's torso that was found in Manerville or Mannerville excuse me, on the nineteen November two thousand. Well that's kind of wonder what this did of the property values out there in Mannerville Beach, both of them. Yeah, No, it didn't

do good things for either of them. One of the other bodies was identity The identity is unknown, but the body was determined to be that of an Asian man who was wearing women's clothing, and the last body to be found was that of a toddler who was wrapped in a blanket and her identity is yet unknown. They were is terrible to point out, but again not entirely intact based on how long they had been there. But you know, that could have just been animals, animals, wave action,

everything like that. We don't know if they were scattered intentionally or just over time. But they were all on a pretty close part. They were all at a very close radius. Yes, yeah, so so you got like, so we got the four bur laps, we've got the two Torso murders. Well, we've got four sets of remains. No that we've got four bur laps. We did have an additional four sets of remains that are found. Part of those are the torsos that were tied to the Manorville

Manorville's torsos. Yeah, and well, am I catting wrong side? I think there's like, you don't do your math now, Joe. We're not done. We're not done. Stop that. I can see where you're going when you're when you're counting on your fingers. I know what you're doing. Um, because we're sorry.

I was just gonna say, at some point we will do like a live taping of podcasts, probably so people can see what a cluster it is, and mostly so that everybody can see the faces that I think people are, like, you're so insensitive, but like, if you could see the faces that we all make when we're talking about this, you understand that. Yeah, one of us just just forge us through and keeps talking and just uh so we're okay, So we're not done yet. Yeah, we've got the Asian

man and the toddler. On the eleventh of April, two more sets of her remains are found farther down the beach. One set of it was a set of human bones in a plastic bag, and the other was just a skull. The skull yeah sorry. The skull would later be connected to a pair of severed legs that were found in April of on Fire Island to the east. The skull and the legs were never connected to any other body parts, well,

originally they were before they were separated. Another I would think every time you found a set of body parts, you know, out there on the island, you just directly go over to Manerville and start looking for the tour. Yeah, that's not a bad point, um. But the skull and the legs that it was eventually connected to, we're also we're run through DNA testing. By the way, the identity of that individual is unknown, and that was then connected and determined to be the mother of the toddler that

was found on the fourth of April. You had asked for this story, what one of minor listeners that you guys asked. Yeah, Now, I did a bunch of reading for links that weren't focused on the Craigslist or the prostitution angle, UM, and I came across some accounts from the families of the identified victims. So of these now not counting Shannon, ten bodies that we've come across, and it turns out they're the ones that have been identified. Just as an again a kind of a global what

is their connections? They were they were all prostitutes at one point or at some point. Yeah, probably not the Tyler um. And it's it's not a lock that all of these women were on drugs, Like we kind of know that the first four were. Um. But you'll see that brought up in the reading you'll also see Heroin brought up in the reading, so it's it's a very it's a very close circle of these things, but there's

not a whole lot. It's not as if they all work for, say the same pimp or something like that, so it's it's very hard to tie them all together. I also, this is really you ever read something as you're doing reading or researching, like, I've never heard that phrase before, and I kind of wish I never had. And I came across the phrase the missing missing, which is one of the most heartbreaking that I've seen this before.

I had to be honest with you when I see this in research, I stopped researching case because I can't. It's too too much, too much for me. For people who don't know the missing missing are people who don't have anyone close enough to them to notice that they are gone to file a missing person's report. So they are truly they have just disappeared from the face of the earth and nobody uh, you know, close enough to notice and report it or notices and just assumes they

want somewhere else. Yeah, that's so sad to me. Sure that that's an ideal victim for a serial killer. Yeah, So I mean there's there's there's certain demographics that are focused upon Yeah, and especially prostitutes because obviously that's easy. It's a dangerous lifestyle. Well, it's it's easy to get a prostitute to come with the climb into your car with you, or coming to meet you somewhere. Drug addicts a lot. Yeah, you know, you say, oh yeah, yeah, no, um,

come come with me. I'll take you to where we can get some. And that's that's the hard part, is it. And I you know, we talked about this a little bit in the last story. It does I don't want to sound like I'm bashing anybody. Yeah, Like in that story, I openly admit that I had an issue with somebody in this. I'm not intending to come across as bashing anybody. There are just a million reasons that someone gets into that lifestyle, and I'm not saying that, I'm not saying

anything against it. It's a choice. It's well it's not always a choice actually, so well, sometimes people are forced into it. Yeah, so it's it's it's really hard to try and put a finger on any of it. But but let's let's move away from that because I just want to finish up before we get into theories. What Joe started to ask about before, which is the count. If you've kept count including Shannon, I am at eleven bodies. Shannon should not be included that, but I did at

the beginning say that there was twelve or more. And I did that on purpose because when you read the reporting now, any time a body is found on any of the Barrier Islands off of the southeast side of Long Island, they are or somebody goes missing, they are immediately connected to the Long Island serial killer. And there are so many that are immediately discovered what actually happened

and pulled back off. Recently, in the last year or two, there have been at least four women's bodies that have been found, whether whole or partial, who the investigators are still unclear if they are connected or are not connected. And that's again, and then there's other ones that have gone missing and been found and then it was figured out what happened and they're definitely not related. But a lot of women seem to be dying in this area, so at least are dumped in this area. Yes, that

is a very as a very good point to mand. Yeah, and uh, you know, so I not to jump the gun. I think it could be all kinds of different killers out there. Well, Joe's Joe's already putting out a theory, so we should probably get into theories. So theory number one, dury number one, is that this is all the work

of a single serial killer. Okay, So just to clarify, the dismembered bodies were found in fairly relatively close proximity to the Burlap ones, right, they're on the same road on that island actually, but but I mean we're pretty close to each other, right, relatively speaking. Yes, but um so, but you always hear it's this is all all the

work of a single killer. Um and it is a prostitute obsessed serial killer who loves to use Oak Island as their dumping well, and this would be one of the most prolific serial killers in the history of the United States, wouldn't it not. Now, there's there's been some people who were well racked up some higher numbers. If you take the top highest number I've heard for this one is seventeen you know, confirmed. Yeah, but that's not

necessarily done by the same Well. Yeah, and there's well, there's guys like B. T. K. He took big gaps, but he did quite a few of The Green River Killer did a bunch. Um. Gay Cy had quite a few people under his house. I don't know how many he ate. Um. But you know what scares me about him is that he worked in a chocolate factory. Can we stop this please? Okay? So logically, logically speaking, it makes sense to think that it's just a single killer.

They've got a thing for prostitutes, and they found this great place to dump all the bodies. Um. As we've just talked about. You know, we've listed off some people. Gary Ridgeway, who was the Green River Killer here in the Pacific Northwest. He dumped all his bodies in the same place all the time. Um. There's two guys. There's Robert Shulman and Joel Rifkin. They're famous examples. UM. And they were actually very their local to the area there in New York in jail by, Like, wasn't he thank

you for just stepping all over that. Good job, Joe. Um. Now we're gonna talk about that in just a second. Um. Now, well you know what Ridgeway I mean. I mentioned him as an example He's by no means a viable Kennedys on the wrong side of the fricking country. People can travel airplane. Yeah, but he was very, very prolific in in the Washington area. But Shulman and Rifken are always called possibilities. Typically they were only connected to the older bodies.

And that is because, as Joe said that there's some you know, being in jail and arrested issues. Showman worked twelve miles away from where the bodies were found. Rifkin worked or lived ten miles away from where they were found. But Solman was arrested nineties six and then executed in two thousand six, and Rifkin began his two hundred and three year prison sentence in might be too short. Yeah, I think they were light on him, but you know,

that's just me. But since we're in the serial, let's talk about a couple of things that are pointed out and we can kind of talk about it if you want. These are things that are always pointed to. People always say that the killer had to have intimate knowledge of the area to know where to dump the bodies. It's

kind of a pull off on the road. Ocean ocean Parkway is the main road that runs the length of the island, which it's it's two lanes in each direction with the what is it when you call the natural medium between and when it's scrub rushing grass, So it's not four lanes connected the two lanes anyway, Median media, thank you. I wasn't sure if a median actually met the stupid concrete k rails or anything delineating the two

as a medium. I think I'm not so sure that you would have had to have an intimate knowledge because they're pretty geographically, they're pretty damn simple. Yeah, And you'll also hear people saying, well if he if he didn't live on the island, people say it had to be a resident of the island. But if it wasn't a resident of the island, then they had to at least spend some time, say summering there. So now now they're saying it's a summering tourist who stays in that area.

I feel like, Okay, so I'm gonna admit something, and I'm going to say that it's because we do this podcast, but maybe not. But do you guys ever just drive through an area and you go, oh, crap. You could totally drop a body there. No. I have looked off and go I wonder, I wonder what's down that little that little something, that little access road area right there. Yeah, And it's not like and you can do that one time, right,

and if you're a serial killer, you can stop. You stop, and you think, oh yeah, no, this would totally be a good spot. You only have to go past there once, right, You don't have to have been there, you don't have to live there, you don't have to be summering there every summer since boyhood. You don't like any of that stuff. And it's very it's very easy to do that kind of stuff and not get in trouble um, you know.

I mean there's there's weird little spots on the road between my house and the main drag and I've had to pull off. And when I pulled off into this weird gravel area, I realized that there was another road that led away. I was like, well, that's strange. Well, if somebody had come up and said, hey, what do you do? And this is railroad property, which I realized by the sign that I read once I was stopped

and I said, I'm sorry, I stopped. I'm trying to figure out where I'm at and keep going, and nobody would ever be as yes, right, sorry, I was trying to find a private place to just you know, take Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna open the car door and I want to be facing the road. Sorry about that. Yeah, I mean there's a million things. And that's also something that they always say is that the killer had to have a vehicle, which actually totally makes sense supportunately les. The thing, however,

is rentals. Yeah, well I doubt they were using Uber. No. But if it were me, and again I'm sorry to say this in this room, but I'm a small female, so you guys can take me if you like, have to, um, but if I were trying to dispose of a body, I would rent a car. Quen Joe, get the trunk. We're gonna shove in that sense, I mean, right, I wouldn't use my own car. Why would you use your own car a bunch of times, you know, the off

chance that somebody sees you dumping the body. Okay, No, I I gotta say that if if if I am intending to dump a body, I'm probably not going to

do it in the daytime. Well, I'm gonna do it at night, and I'm probably gonna have something that is, you know, semi sheltered, so I can pull off, so not blatantly sitting on the side of the road, but I could just pull my car off the side road and get out of the car, stand in the bushes wait, knowing that Okay, if I see lights, it takes five minutes for those lights to get me, run to the car, open the trunk, and drag the body away like it doesn't have to be some super and then if if

somebody pulls up, you just stay in the bushes. But I just I guess the reason I would do a you know, I would do a rental car is not for the license plate or anything like that, but at the very least evidence left in the trunk or the sea from all these women in your car. Like, no, there's no way to track they can pin one on you.

There'll be d NA, I mean, but you know burlap. Yeah, hopefully by the time by the time they find you and check your credit card records and find that you rented a car, they somehow managed to track down the car. They probably had had it detailed. You know, numerous times you know, and all kinds of people have been in and out of that trunk and stuff, and then it's one single eyewitness thing. Yeah, I saw a car. I

think this was a license plate. You can always well, you know, and people's recollection of license plates is terrible

because like, um, I think I told you too. This was this summer, my wife's car got backed into in a hardware store parking lot and some guy was standing there and watch the yo, yo that did it get out of his car, get back into his car and drive away, and he's like the license plate was and he stops and you can see like this whole process in his head, and he spat out the license plate number. But he was wrong because we looked at the security issue a video he had. One of the the alphabet

characters was incorrect. So I mean, but but that is a guy who was standing in a in a very stable environment and then resting it, and who actually had a reason to look at that license number. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not somebody driving. But realistically, yes, there had to be a vehicle involved, but that person did not necessarily to

own a vehicle. Correct. The next thing you're going to be pointed to when you do all of this is, which is actually kind of likely, is that he would have frequented prostitutes, and he could very well have been a John that these women had been with before they were killed as an and a time before or an encounter before, because it turns out if a John finds a woman who does what he likes, he's likely to go back. I also suspect I am not a prostitute, nor have I ever been a prostitute, nor do I

know anything about the profession of being a prostitute. However, I would expect that um, a prostitute is tending to be a much more on guard and have a lot more backups. The first time, they mean, then if they have a rapport with that person and they know he was harmless missionary and then cried, I mean, you know, that's the sort of thing. And then you get you get with him a couple of times. He seems like a nice die and you're like, you know what, pack

you go away for a couple hours. Mr Drivers, Fine, he's a john, and then suddenly you disappear and the drivers the driver has no idea because you didn't never tell the driver what we were doing. Well, now the murdered women had a driver that we know no, but even like, yeah, we don't have that kind of detail, but you know, you would assume that maybe it's possible that even the most careful prostitute the first couple of times would have somebody that for the first couple of

times and then they would be used to it. So it is I think it is probably likely. Yeah. Well, and in the reading to to to address a little bit of both of you said, is that some of these women, uh, they had they had their pimp and a lot of a lot of times they're out doing their job and I'm using air quotes around their job, but they're out there trying to make money and their pimp is not with them. The pimp says, go make money, come back and let me see it, and then I

will give you your cod. So they would know, like they're one of these ladies who's one of the burlat victims whose um pimp's name I cannot think of at this moment, was like, I had no idea what she was doing. They tracked him down. He was like, I had no idea what she's doing. She had to that, believe, blie Bleep had to just come back and have the money, or I beat the crap out of her. I mean that that's that's the scenario that a lot of these

people are in. So so it's very it's very likely that had previous encounters um And they say, not surprisingly that obviously this guy must have had access to burlap, which is funny because if anybody has worked with burlap, you would know that it is not nearly as common as it once was. It's kind of hard to get a hold of anymore. Yeah, when I was a kid on potatoes came in burlap bags and stuff. But now

nylon sacks have replaced burlap. You'll tend to see used to see in like feed like stock for animals, but now it's all vinyl and there's bur lap is not nearly as common in you keep directing this towards me. My confused look is because my place of work stocks burlap. Like the world is ending, so I mean, like it's for me, you would be, Yeah, there are applications, but they're very They're more specialized now and more finite than

they used to store, and they've got bur lap. The point is it is it is not as common, so therefore it's easier to track down, but they haven't figured out any any sources. So we've way on on all this. I want to get to the official So that's part of the profile. The other part of the profile here is that, according to either the police of the FBI, I think it's the police, but I'm not positive, our killer is a white male shocking uh in his mid

twenties to mid forties. And yeah, because of the fact that he didn't stay on the phone for very long with Amanda, which again that was Melissa's little sister. Um, he and avoided all the detection, he must have a and I'm using quotes here because this is what you see it as quoted as detailed or intimate knowledge of

police techniques. Well that's why thing is that you watch Law and Order, but you know c s ide with a side of bones thrown in and you know exactly how all that happens, because Hollywood has been throwing all of those police procedures at us for decades. So yeah, so that's that's just the silliness to me. Um, I mean,

any want to be killer could just do that. Um. The other problem that I have with this thing this is so that's one of my problems with when they say it's you know, it's just detailed intimate knowledge, is an insider or some related thing. I have problems with it. But the other thing that I have an issue with is that each set of victims appears to have possibly been killed in a different manner, So it's like they're at least three killers at work here. I would say, well,

there's a victims, we know they're strangled. The dismembered victims. We don't know how they were killed exactly, but they were dismembered, stabbed or something. Well, somebody had taken the time to make the cause of death was probably something different, and likely a sharp device was involved to break the body apart into pieces to be dumped in place. I guess my real problem with this, sorry, do you want

to finish all? My really big problem with this is that, like, if this is the same serial killer, they are de escalating, right, They're changing there, They're changing their there also de escalating right from mutilating and chopping, the mutilating and chopping a body up to simply wrapping it in burlap and burying it in the shallow, almost in a reverent manner, Compared to the violence of probably there's some like some psychologists could probably say like they're coming to terms with the

childhood trauma that they had been facing when they write that they were like dismembering their mother figure and now they're coming to terms with it, and so they're burying her in a shroud. Right, Okay, fine, I'm sure something. But in my in our you know, years of being armchair experts, they don't, they don't de escalate, and you don't go from totally mutilating and dismembering women and toddlers to wrapping women respectiually in trous and burying them all

in a shallow grave. But you just don't do that. It doesn't happen. So that's my big problem with that. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it is, it's it's such a wild swing. Now now I will admit before because somebody I know was gonna say, you know, wait, wait, wait, serial killers have been known to change their disposal methods different. Well, but there's it's it's always situational. Like I was talking

about who's Gaysy the clown killer. You know, he used to bury people under his house, but he did also throw a couple of people in the river. But that was situational. It was it was you know, the circumstances were what they word. It wasn't as if he just went, you know, there's just too many people under my house. I'm gonna start putting him in the river. No, he didn't do that at all. So circumstances, I mean, I can't see actually burying the bodies under my house any

of these things. The reason I don't like the single killer theory at all, well, if you look at if you look at the aerials of the island alone, of the islands out there, it's got three causeways connecting it to Long Island, and also there's a causeway that goes to Fire Island that branches off and also goes to Oak Island. So in other words, it's the most easily

accessible of any of those islands. But it's still remote and like you say, long straight level roads, you can see somebody coming from miles away, and so it's an ideal place to get rid of bodies. So I'm not surprised that a bunch of different people dumped their bodies out there. Of course they did. This may be like super cynical of me, but I'm sure there's some network of serial killers out there, right, There's got to be some network of like dudes who like to kill people.

So okay, we save that for I think the second or second to last or last theory. We're going to move into the next one, which Joe has obviously chosen as his favorite, which is the several unconnected serial killers or unconnected killers just killers. Indeed, guess some of these look kind of look like one offs, like the skeleton found in a bag, you know, it's it seems like

a one off. The two torsos in Manorville seem kind of like a weird, isolated set, like there's there's there's not a whole other than the fact that these ladies were ladies of the night and may or may not have been heavy drug users at the time. And I say may or may not because some of them were. We do know some, but that that's not that doesn't isn't any consequence. But other than that is the sort

of semi commonality between them. Egg. Yeah, But the point is is that, yeah, there's there's not a whole lot that sinks them up. So it's very easy to say, well, let's just say it's serial killers. Okay, let's just let's just ignore the random kill and say it's a serial killer. Then it's very easy to say that this is two or three who just happened to go. Hey, you know, I drove down that road and I figured out this place to pull off, and nobody's gonna see. Mean I

can I can just chuck a body. Yeah, that's what I do. Actually, by the way, there for a while I had a great place to dumb bodies. Not too more, but stop it. We'll talk about yourself in trouble. But you know, the other thing is is that because of

the proximity to docks and stuff. I mean, it's it's makes itself, it lends itself to it kind of a Dexter scenario where there could be somebody who's killing even more but occasionally can't get to the boat and so has to dump a body because obviously, if you haven't seen Dexter spoiler art, uh, he chopped up bodies and dumped him in the ocean. So but it's it's that kind of thing. Okay, So we're gonna move on to the next theory. Uh. The next theory is that the

culprit is Dr Peter Hackett. If you remember when we were talking about Shannon, he's the guy that's supposedly Shannon and Joe Brewer went whose house they went to to get more drugs? He Um, yeah, he is, Uh, he's at least in my mind. Um, from what I've read about him, the guy is a braggart. He talks a lot, and he likes to be the center of attention, and he has a tendency to to kind of overstate his

involvement in things and his responsibilities. Um, and we'll get we're gonna link this back in, but let me just explain this guy here. Hackett was an emergency response specialist and he was involved in some pretty big operations. But like I said, he kind of he overstated his roles and responsibilities and badly so. He did it to the media in six um with the t w A eight hundred flight, which got him into a lot of hot water with his employers. Here's a question. He is actually

a doctor. He is he is. He is a doctor, and he is not like you know, a general practitioner or a surgeon or anything like that. He his doctor. But he went into emergency medical situations. He really went into more of like a administrative kind of situation. So he was never operating on people who's not He was not for a very long time out in the field.

And that's because of the fact that you know Hackett, as we'll talk about shortly, he's got um a handicap for for his mobility for being out in the field. And so that's why I think that he though he is a doctor, he never went out and did it in that fashion. So as he had trouble fine nigger keeping employments. Since this whole thing became a thing, turns out he was pretty close to retirement, so I didn't really bother him. I'm pretty sure that at this point

he basically retired because he moved to Florida. I think I think he moved out of the Oak, the community that he lived in, and then moved to Florida. I want to say it was in two thousand and twelve or two thousand and thirteen, so which you know, moved Florida, retire, so it didn't really hurt him. So this, uh, this is actually a thing. Though, are people out there that really believed that Peter Hacker Hackett Peter Hackett. Oh, there

are people who are so convinced that he is responsible. Um, So here's the thing, and he did some really stupid stuff, but when when it came to Shannon, because she's obviously our catalyst, and this is how he's brought into the stories to supposed drug exchange. Well, also, he apparently called Shannon's mother and the morning after she had had run away and said that he ran a rehab for wayward girls out of his home and that he had taken care of her and she had left the day after

she disappeared and she should be home. Yeah. The problem is that when he was pressed about this call, he said he never made the call, though there are phone records between Hackett and Mary, and then when the records were hold up and and shown, then he kept changing his story slash recollection of why they talked on the phone. Okay,

here's a question. Was this before they found out the police found out the whole story that she was, you know, at the house for the prostitution and all that stuff, or was it after it would have been after it would have been after the police found out about it last time, I mean Brewer, as soon as the cops showed up, you know, Mary, Mary called because Okay, what happens is Shannon disappears and she doesn't come home that morning, and I believe it's later the after later in the day.

Uh so she just she are nine one. One call was at four fifty am. Later that very same day, her boyfriend Alex the guy said she was living with. He calls Pack to find out what's going on, and then that triggers the whole chain of events for the police to get involved. Okay, I guess because my question is is like if you know if, but I don't know that police were searching for her right away. In other words, they didn't search that very you know, right, So yeah, I mean I guess it could have been

a you know, Hackett is a friend of God. What's his name, Brewer, Brewer, you know, and Brewer says she disappeared, like Pack said she disappeared, and you know, Hackets like, I'm sure she's fine, I'll call her parents. Here's the thing, Hackett doesn't know Shannon. How the hell did he get her mother's phone number? That's that's that's why there's so much suspicion on him, is it's the day after she's disappeared,

and he's calling her mother. Well, but I guess for me it's it's not so weird, right, Alex calls pack right and packs like crap, Like we don't know where she is, she didn't come home. Okay, we should do some damage control here, Um, Brewer, can you know you can't? Um? Who do we know that can corroborate that she was a lot? Okay? Hackett you guys want Hacketts? Okay, Alex,

what how can we get hold? Yeah? I don't think it's all that suspicious, but but people, but I'm saying is that people say, well, how the hell did he get that? People really find him suspicious and the fact that he has access to prescription drugs, People say, well, look at this. He has supposedly made statements or offers to people that he could get them what they needed

and all they needed do was asked. And I'll be honest with you, I'm fifty fifty on whether that's real or not, because, like I said, he mean he's a murderer. You know it doesn't I mean, you know, it does not mean he's a murderer. But people also say, well, he maybe he dumped her behind his house. Because if you use the criteria that we talked about in the first theory. He lives on the island, so he would

know the island very well. And obviously he has a vehicle because he drives to and from every day white male in his forties. He is a white male that is in his at the time late fifties or really sixties, so he's outside of the range there. Um. The marsh or the swamp that Shannon's body was found in, uh, it flows past the rear of his home and then it flows to It does flow to where she was found, but to give credit, everybody that lives on that side

of the street, the marsh flows by their houses. So that's that's not iron clad, but there's there's a rule among serial killers, which is you don't crap in your own nest. That's true, We're gonna die at the end

of this episode. This is never going to reach air. Um. The problem with saying that that Hackett is responsible for, if anything, at least for shin In, if not all of these murders is, you know who would have to be in cahoots with him, his wife, because she would know if he's you know, going out at weird hours of the nuns and then coming home covered in dirt from digging a shallow gray It was just that doing a little midnight gardening. Wife, you come home late. Yeah,

does wake up the time most of the time. But you know what else, if I'm digging, you know what happens, dirt all over me. The other problem is is that for him, this is a sandy area for him to be able to navigate, to drag a body out and then dig a ditch. The problem that I have is that Hackett was he stopped to help somebody many many years ago. He stopped to help somebody who was in a car accident. He himself was then hit by another

motorist and he lost one of his legs. He yeah, he only has one like he has prosthetic and he gets around on it well enough that a lot of people don't know unless they see him in shure that he's got a prosthetic. But still that doesn't make navigating you know that kind of terrain. Is he to give you some pushback? His wife had to have known. I mean, I presume that they have big, nice houses in this area, right, It's not like your house. I've been to your house.

It's small thanks, But yes, I mean, and it's it's fine. Actually, but I've been on street view in these little towns and they're actually not enormous mansions. We're not twice the size of Steve's house, even of your house. Not an enormous mansion, but a big enough house that you could come in. There's two full bathrooms. Right. You come in, you shower, you clean off, you throw your wash in

the laundry. You fall asleep on the couch with the football game on, and your wife comes down and says, oh, did you fall asleep in front of the TV again? And you say, yeah, I guess I must have the reason that I say his wife had to know at least with Shannon, as if indeed she came over, he and and this is this is what she came over probably well, no, this is this is for the people who say that he older and he must have dumped her behind his house in the marsh that then carried

her away. Is that she had to have been in his house for some period of time, at which point, if she was as panicked as everybody says she was, she would have been screaming and his wife would could not have slept and ignored that. Okay, here's the next question. I have lots of questions on this, But how do you know the wife was home? Was? Okay? Okay, how do you know the wife wasn't on ambien or xan x or any of the other None of that was. That's never specified, so I can't say, right, So, I

mean that's and that's a thing. Here's my problem. Have to go back. Well, no, and the thing with Hackett, the guy is subtle as a t rex. I mean, he didn't know me. He doesn't have to wear with all. I think your arguments against all, well, he's he's he's made he's made enemies. I mean, there's all kinds of have you ever gone have you ever seen those people who are in a moners association in there? They are on the board and there's all kinds of political crap

going on back and forth. He was, he was involved in that for years in this community, and he's made a lot of enemies. And while I don't use that as a reason to excuse him, I use that as a reason to think that people just say that guy's inn a whole and it's his fault. Yeah. The thing about it is, too is that there's not there's not a shred of evidence that even that he murdered Shannon. Yeah, there really is not a shred of evidence and much left and Shannon, in my in my opinion, is completely

unconnected to the rest of the body. Honest, there's not even a shred of evidence that he even really meant her he met her. Yeah, there's not much. There's not that much evidence of that either. Yeah, I mean, actually it's so weak. I will say that there's a little bit of evidence because he himself isn't kind of if you would call this incriminating evidence that he's sort of incriminated himself a little bit by saying by making the

phone call to it. That's the only the only bit of evidence is that, and and that could be evidence for like Brewers said, Brewers said that they had met and Hackett and hey, yeah, but you know, but even so what you know, I mean, yeah, so he sold them drugs. Yeah, Okay, let's let's move forward. Yeah, because we're gonna move on to the who you just talked about,

which is Brewer, which people say Brewer is responsible. Also the dumbest thing I ever, because there is absolutely no evidence other than the fact that Shannon came to his house, didn't potentially did a bunch of drugs, possibly had sex with him, and then ran from his house in a possibly drug induced panic. Possibly not, but she left his house and that was But there's nothing to connect him to all the other murders. Even if he did somehow kill Shannon, he have he probably not a serial killer.

That would have been like a super bungled case. Well, Ben, he would have had acts actually a very positive incentive to not let her run off into the night, because if he had actually stashed all these bodies would have all around near Yeah, he wouldn't have called past. He also wouldn't have just turned around and walked back into his own day house. Also, he also wouldn't have led her out of the house to begin with, because her

running off sparked this whole thing, you know. And if he had had bodies stashed all around his house, I mean, not not near his house, but in the area, yeah, obviously would have just killed her. So yeah, so why not treat her like all the others? So how many, how many? How strong I can tend to his brewer out there on the internet. Oh, he's he's for the

most part completely disregarded. Okay, you will see the occasional it's got to be Brewer because he's he's you know, this thing happened with Shannon, But for the most part, nobody even takes it as a serious theory. No, why would you. So let's let's move to my next theory. This is one that I we kind of talked about this a little bit or insinuated this a little bit when it comes to the multiple serial killers. But I'm not even gonna say this is multiple serial killers. This

theory is a dumping grounds for a cleaner. If you have ever watched Reservoir Dogs, remember Harvey Kite tells now you're you're taking pulp fiction. Pulp fiction. You're right, I'm sorry it is. It's pulp fiction. Do you know what I think of always is um boondoc saints. Yeah. So you got the cleaner, the guy who comes in, You've got a bunch of bodies, and he gets rid of them. Okay, well, let's not even take it to that fun Hollywood level.

But let's just say there's somebody who needs who you know, he's just kind of hey, um, so I don't know what to do. I killed this, this this hooker, Um, what do I do? And he's like, give me a thousand bucks and I'll take care of it. And he just starts sprinkling bodies all over the area. And it's like, okay, well, this one spot, I always put him in bur laugh this place. I hack them up so that connected murders

become disconnected or disconnected murders appear to be connected. I mean, I know that I am reaching on this, but it's like, why can't it be that is to anything else? I like it, except for that it takes a certain kind of um psychopath, it messed up human being to hack bodies up and disperse those parts. It could be you know, it could be a combo of of a cleaner and a serial killer. Yeah again, I mean I think, yeah, okay, these people are murder strangled and they're wrapped in burlap.

But I just keep thinking, like, that's such such an attention to details. It's a reverent way to deal with that end. I'm not even sure. I'm not sure there was any reverence there, seriously, more so than hacking up their bodies happing it in like five different places. Sure, you know, I mean at least there's some care taken to this body. Um. I mean I'm going to disagree a little bit. I think that you're assigning care to something, which is I don't want to get gooey matter in

the back of why trunk as simple as that. That, Yeah, Or you know, they were out of blue tarps at the Ace Hardware, so I got burlap wrap instead. I mean there's also such a thing as like serial killers who like go into this like blind rage and kill and then basically like come to afterwards, right and then realize like, oh god, I just did something awful. I got a body I gotta get rid of now, and they just don't know what to do or how to deal with it, so they wrap it up so they

don't have to look at it. Yeah, it's you see this in movies. Oh god, it happened again. Yeah, what do I do? I've got to dispose? Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. I mean it could be any of that. The last theory that we have here is I don't know how to describe this one except I see it listed in some places and I refer to it as the party dudes, which is, did either of you see that movie? Um,

Very bad Things Okay, it's a jereedy. It's a movie with Jeremy Piven in it, and he's with a prostitute and she accidentally dies while they're copulating, and it starts this chain of things. But it's like, you know, oh, well I hired a prostitute and she happened to die. We've got to get rid of the body. Well, this weirdly ties into that because this theory says that, well, there's these guys and they use the island and they like to party, and they invite prostitutes over, and occasionally

a prostitute dies and we gotta handle it. So we just you know, one of us is responsible for getting rid of them. And I mean I know you had you had something that I told you to hold off, which is sort of in this vein kind of. I mean, I guess I I would more assign it to like multiple serial killers, but that like there's a chryslist, right, or like a deep website of like, oh crap, I gotta tore into this because like we're to dump a

body on Oak Island, right. I mean, I'm sure that that exists in this world where you could just google something of like oops, I killed someone. But I think the thing that feeds into this party bro thing is as a straight woman, I have had sex with men, and straight men uh seem to think that ladies are

into strangling. Actually I don't, but but it's definitely and there's there's like I've sadly seen things about this on the internet, something to be said by like, you know, a loving, trusting partner, like slightly choking what, okay, whatever, it doesn't matter. But I mean, I think there are dudes, especially if you have a prostitute, right, and like, dudes think that ladies love that. And I don't know what

it is. I think it's probably there are some guys out there who and in certain circles and in a prostitute situation, it is a power place. So yes, And so the fact that a lot of these women were prostitutes who were strangle does to me feed into this of like, oh crap, I got high on coke with this prostitute and was super drunk and we were having sex and I was choking her and suddenly she stopped moaning fake fake in in. Uh yeah, that was brackets

bracket speed, Like dude, how did you not notice? Right? She stopped moaning and like, oh crap, she's dead, Like how do I get rid of this? Right? I mean, so it's I don't want to advocate for that. I much more like that it's nefarious serial killers that are like killing. But it wouldn't surprise me that much to find out that it was just some bro dudes who were into choking and accidentally killed a bunch of hookers. I don't. I don't think that would really account for

all of them, though. I don't think it would either, particularly the dismembered ones. Right. The dismembered ones for me have to be serial killer status. That's just because I normally want to believe that anybody who would totally dismember a body like that and drop it in multiple locations have to be a serial killer with like a very messed up mind. And I know you're making that face because I don't, yeah, but whatever. In my mind, the only people who do that are really messed up people

that I don't encounter everything. And see, I've watched too many I've watched too many movies and too many TV shows to not think to myself if I was in some accidental situation where I accidentally killed somebody. What is easier to get rid of a full hundred some odd pound body or a bunch of smaller pieces that I can spread about. And while I might do a job of hacking at a park with a knife or naxe or whatever, all of these things which I own, so

don't come into my house. Um, you know, it's it's just that for most of us it would. I mean I I totally understand parting them out and taking them out in separate small loads makes a lot of sense. I just don't think I could do it. I just want you to think of the like emotional toll, like have you ever butchered a chicken? Actually not? I know you have chickens. Have you ever butchered a chicken? I have you? Do? You want to know how terribly cold

I am when it comes to dead things. When so I went to school in a rural area and we had the mobile butcher come and he drove to the barn and he killed a pig, and he hoisted the pig and he was dressing and butchering it right there, all of it in the barn. And I was standing there watching the whole thing, eating a bag of crunchy Cheetos like it didn't phase me at all. It was meat. So that's been worried about Joe killing Steve, like like once something is gone. I don't. I's the weird thing.

I don't. So I can see whereas not that I would ever do this, but I can see everything. Okay, well this it's it's business now. I just gotta I gotta do this thing. I don't think it would actually be that way for you probably think you're better. I would probably pee myself and be crying in the corner. I don't think you could actually do it, you know, after I touched it with a knife, not even cut, just oh I can't do it. Yeah, it's one thing to do it to an animal. That which is in

my mind, kind of stopped that. Yeah, but I don't think. I mean, I think there's no way that this is just one person. I agree, and I guess I don't know if it's like a couple of different serial killers or whatever. I think one of them, in my mind, definitely has to be a serial killer. The others, I don't know. It's tragic no matter what. Well, you know what we haven't talked about. I mean you you hinted

this a little bit. But but okay, let's just let's step away from the theories that we've already got, but let's just say it is a something that can to what you said, which is a group dumping ground. But let's say that it's a gang dumping ground. So it's you know, oh well, you know, t Bone, he he got this, he got this hooker and things a little too far and he took care of him. Then a year later like, oh well, we'll skippy over there. Oh well, I'll just put it with the last We'll just let's

taken this place we dumped the last one. But that ganks. Gangs don't work that way. I understand that, Joe. But I'm just saying it could be not as organized as the whole party bro party. Now, I don't buy the party broke conspiracy. It seems to me. It seems to me it's two serial killers and a bunch of one off killings, because I mean, you well, it happens to me the most. It has to be the It happens to be the most logical dumping ground next to a metro area that's composed of like eight and a half

million people. You know, and so yeah, of course a million people lived there, and there's a couple of serial killers. Yea, at least one. I mean, there's got to be some, you know, on the dark web. I'm sure that there's some like Google Best Places to you know, when somebody says, well, I'm in the New York area and I dismembered and dumped four different women in this area, and I have been caught yet some message board thing. Yeah, yeah, by anything on the dark web, you can find how to

kill a prosty dot org. Yeah. Well so, but the police, now, my understanding is their latest thinking is that there's one serial killer involved in all this, which surprises me a little bit because so there I don't want to say negative things about the New York Police Department. There have been some very strange events and in circumstances around this case. And I also feel like a lot of media publicity has driven the statements and comments that they put out.

Like Mary, Mary, she was Shannon's mom, she did she did a lot of stuff. The other family members of the first four victims, the Burlett victims, they were all banded together and then Mary kind of went off as reservation and they there was a lot of pressure put on the police. There were some police changes that happened because of it. So you know, I mean they may have just I mean, this is something. This is me

totally guessing. They may have said, listen, we have to take a stand and we're going to take a stand here because the families are just constantly causing a ruckus and screaming, and we just have to say this, even if we don't believe it internally, we have to publicly say something. Yeah, you know, and then you never you never know, I mean, actually make it would make sense for me. Number one. The police withhold information for the public for good reasons, for very good reasons, and I

think they sometimes put out disinformation. It may very well be because it seems pretty plainly obvious to me that this is not the work of us. You know, it's not. It's not just variant, no, no, very much variable. And like I said, that's such an attractive dumping ground. Of course you're gonna find bodies, said, they should keep looking a bit, they'll find more. Really, things keep washing up.

It's a great spot to dump a body because it's right off of that coast, you know, and God knows how many remains were washed away in the storms in the last couple of years, you know, or or even more maybe things were exposed. It's hard to say. Yeah, and so yeah, of course there's body is there. So yeah. So anyway, that's That's about as much as I've got to say about the whole thing. I'm done. Yeah, all right, Well that's the I guess that's the end of it.

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I think so. All right, well then if that's it, ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna we're gonna hack it up and we will talk to you next week.