Thinking Sideways: Kubrick's The Shining

got a lot of heil over that way. But I am Steve as always, joined by Devin and Joe, and once again we have another mystery to look into. This is a listener suggestion. We've been trying to work through the backlog, which but we have a big one. We have a lot of suggestions, which is great, but that list has gotten huge. This particular story that we're going to talk about was suggested by Todd quite a long time ago. So sorry that it took us a while, Todd,

But sorry, man, I hope you're still listening. Todd. Oh, I'm curious. I didn't get angry that we've never used his suggestion. Stopped listening to us. Well, it was a great suggestion, because what Todd suggested was that we look at Stanley Kubrick's The Shining because it turns out there are a ton of theories on the interpretation of what the movie is all about. It's surprising actually have many weird hidden meetings people seemed to find in the movie.

And I hadn't seen it in like twenty years. So I I remember several years ago I watched there's a documentary which is going to come up, so we'll just talk about it now, Room two thirty seven. Oh yeah, several times now. But I remember watching it before and thinking I don't remember any of this stuff. I've since watched The Shining about two and a half times in a week and a half, so my house is shining no longer allowed. I got into a lot of trouble

for continually watching that. Well, I I've not I had never seen it before. Um, because it may or may not shock our listeners to know that I hate horror movie like, I don't watch them at all. Um. In fact, if there's like even a remotely scary tense soundtrack to something, I probably won't watch it. This goes back to legitimately, I think I was a year and a half old. My mom tried to show me Bamby. She had never

seen it before. Well, and you know, the moms and her group said, oh, don't worry, the kids don't know that. Spoiler alert. The mom dies, you know, the kids don't realize that, and you know, the music kind of comes up and I stand up on the couch. I'm a year and a half old. I stand up on the couch as the music is just like you know, and Bambi gets out of the fire, and I just turned to my mom and go, Mama, where's his mama? Mama, Mama, Mama,

says mama. And my mom just like just gently took through mote and turned it off and said she comes back at the end. Let's go do something else. And I think that that moment with the music is the very good representation of I can't. And this one was so I mean, I texted you about it. In the middle of it. I was like, do I really have to do this? Because what is this movie about? Why are we watching it? And I just cleaned up that was super clean. There were yeah, I did not. I

was not not excited about watching it. It was the soundtrack. I think that if it had a different soundtrack, if it had wacky Sacks in it. But see that's the thing that that's it's a very it's totally cubriic. That movie is absolutely cubic. And smoiler alert for everybody. If you haven't seen The Shining, I know you were going to get around to it, and it's only like thirty

five years old. We're going to talk about this movie and you might want to go wrap the movie first, come back in a couple of hours when you finished The Shining. Yeah, it's a good movie. I know that Vin didn't like it. No, No, I liked it. I just don't like movies like that. I And the thing is, is like I like all of the other Kubrick movies I've ever seen, So it was just this this was kind of an outlier because he always wanted to do horror, so this was a bit of an outlier for his catalog. Yeah.

He uh, he actually has a he did a little bit of everything. He did warror movies and horror movies. I mean you've seen like, well it's obviously Doctor Strange Love is that's one of my favorite movies of all times. You guys know that because I like I title all of the names of my scripts in that fashion. I don't know if you guys have picked up on that, to stop that and love the bomb, Yeah, yeah, yeah, how I learned to stop worrying and love the toy tiles and you know whatever. And one of my faves

is Clockwork Orange. I like that one, which is another darkly humorous movie. It's really it's really very funny, but it's it's in a very dark way. Yeah, he's he's a very unit he was very unique director. Yeah, absolutely very talented, absolutely talented. But let's let's go ahead and kind of step into what we're going to talk about here. I want to talk more about how much I hate horror movies. We we could do a whole episode on that.

Let's do that one later. You might turn our listeners off, okay, um, But now, what I was gonna say when we were talking about all the theories is some of these theories you kind of gotta stand on one leg, hold your mouth in just the right way, and then maybe see it. And some of them are based on the evidence they

give you are really really obvious. Yeah, And I when I watched Room two three seven, I was having a really hard time not doing that thing that people do sometimes when you sit in front of the TV and you're like, yeah, that's true, Yeah, that thing is the real thing. Oh no, wait, I know you said that contract. Oh that contradicts it. You know, just accepting the facts as they were given, and I know that. We'll talk about that a little bit too, yes, because you cannot

do that. But are you too ready? You're ready for movie time? All right, who's got the popcorn? Okay, sweet, first bit of business. Let's talk about The Shining not the movie but the book by Stephen King. By Stephen King. It's a little different. It is. King wrote the book and it came out in ninety seven, and the baseline story is the same, and I'm gonna give you a baseline version. It's not exact because they do diverge from

each other so much. Ye. Essentially, they're going to spend the winter and it's the Torrance family the Overlook Hotel that it's in the mountains of Colorado. They're gonna watch the hotel and maintain it over the course of the winter, and they're going to be snowed in. There's three main characters at that point. We've got the father who is Jack, the mother who is Wendy, and the son who is five year old Danny. That's our main characters. And Danny

has telepathy. Yes, it turns out Danny can see things. He can shine, he can shine as it is called. So you can not only read minds communicate telepathically, but I also can see things that happened in the past and in the future or are going to happen. And he has the what's his name in the movie, tom Tommy Tommy, but that's but that's only in the movie. In the movie he has Tony. But in the book

Tony is there. I didn't read the book. Sorry, and you gotta okay what Devon is doing, by the way, everybody, and she is imitating Danny with a little the pointer finger up and down to talk, so right now, my yeah, that's yeah, up and down conversation that is not present in the book. He talks to Tony in his head. So the finger thing is a way to visualize it for film. Yeah, you know, in interior monologue is really

hard to do. It is, so what happens of course Danny, these things, those things are affecting his father his father goes nuts, he tries to kill the family. The father dies, and Wendy and Danny escaped the overlook. That's the short version. That's a very even out because again they died. But the hotel is like haunted. I guess you could say it's inhabited by very evil a very evil presence. I would say evil presence is the right way to go about it. Yeah. So, like I said, King published the

book in seventy seven. Cuber got ahold of it, decided he wanted to make it into a movie, but of course he needed to make changes for because, as we just said, internal monologues don't work on film. Well, you can do it if you're going to have the narrator. Yeah, but that's a bad format for hormone. A movie that was very faithful to the book was very loathing in Las Vegas, and it really really sucked. It didn't work in his book. The book was hilarious and the movie

just sucked. Yeah, it didn't make it. Well. So Cubert no, just so he gets ahole of King and he says, I want to make this into a movie, but I need to make changes. And King, being flattered that Stanley Cubrick is asking to turn his book into a movie, says, go ahead, change what you want, not realizing quite how much was gonna get changed. Pretty much everything. King hates

this movie. Ye absolutely hates the movie. And and it's because of the fact that Kubrick went in and slashed so much out and then changed so many things that he had to change. But it's it's really interesting. Came out to be. It turned out to be a good story, which is not the same story, not quite the same, quite the same story. Now we're going to focus on the movie, so we're going to talk about the actors briefly. Here we have four actors we're gonna talk about. So

Jack Torrence, the father was played by Jack Nicholson. Very young Jack, very and yet already balding. Jack Nicholson Warning to you people, I guess it's too late because you've already shut off the podcast and you're running the movie right now streaming on Netflix. But Jack Nicholson's hair is kind of wild in this movie. It's not on Netflix. It's no, you can't scream it. I think Amazon Prime is where I watched it. Is it sounding like an ad?

I'm sorry. Our next character is going to be Wendy Torrence, the mother. She was played by Shelley Duval. She's a great character. She's yeah, yeah, we're leave it at that. We have the son Danny, who is played by a five year old boy named Danny Lloyd, who fun fact, didn't know that they were filming a horror movie and in fact didn't even see the movie or like find out anything about it until he was like fourteen. It's like nine years later. His parents finally said, yeah, alright, fine,

you can see this movie. And apparently he was like horrified. He had no idea it was a drama. Did you watch the making of that's out there? And one there's one guy I cannot remember his name, but he was basically Danny's handler. He hung out with Danny, he did everything. So as soon as the scene was done, Hey Danny, let's go do this, he grabbed his hand. He run down the hall like they were totally keeping him sheltered.

They do this with children with child actors a lot. Um. There's this movie called The Fall and one of the characters is a little girl who only speaks Spanish um, and they actually had to film all of her scenes in sequence as she learned English so her English would get better. And the um, one of the other characters is a paraplegic. He can't walk, and she literally thought that he was paralyzed until the premiere of the movie when she saw him walking down the carpet and she

was horrified. I think they do that a lot with kids, right right, I mean, not sorry, not like the worst, but she was. She was shocked. Yeah, but we have I'm sorry tangent. Okay, not on this tangent. They were on this one last thing. I guess I need to go back and watch the movie a game, because I'm trying to remember if they found a way to keep the kid out of the frames. In the scenes when they're in the bathroom and Jack Nicholson is chopping the door down, he wasn't in there, and he was already

escaped the bathroom. No, no, he started to head. He already got he was already out. He was already out. But then when when Jack Nicholson is chopping at the door of the apartment, was he was he not? They find a way to keep him out of those scenes? The chopping only happens on the bathroom door. Your way Ahead sir, No, No, he chopped. He chopped his way through the apartment door too, and then opened and then turned the doorknob. They yeah, but they have him in

the bathroom and they do cut. It's all cut scenes in it. So they managed that they managed to actually keep him off the set for those Well I don't know if he wasn't off of the but I imagine they had him somewhere else. Yeah, I imagine he was in the cafeteria. Anyway. Sorry, we have one another act actor that we need to talk about, and that is the guy who played the character of Dick Halleran, and he was Scatman Cruthers and he was a great He was my favorite. I agree. He did a phenomenal job.

Was really good. So he was really interesting. But but those are are four characters. And that character does or does it not exist in the book because he does, he does, he does. He does not experience the same fate in the book. That is a complete diversion in the movie. And that's actually the one thing about about the movie that's very King asked, very very Stephen King, like he has a way of having this, you know, because he comes all the way across country and comes

in and immediately it gets murdered. Just like that, You no chance to do much of anything. Yeah, that's the kind of thing that Stephen King would do. Yes, in the book, that wasn't it. He made the hero in the book. But let's go ahead and move away from the story for a moment before we because we've got what is it? We got just a little bit more, and then we're gonna start talking about theories. The last thing I want to talk about is Stanley cubric himself.

He If you're not familiar with him, you need to go watch his movies. I wouldn't say that I'm not a huge Cubic fan, but I appreciate them. But I also do you guys, I know you remember this to have a couple of years ago, I went I watched two thousand one of Space on he for the first time. I hated it. I hated. I was like, I don't

get that movie. We talked it with Toynb Tiles. You know, we were talking about Cubic idea resurrects on dead on planet Jupiter, and you were just like, I hate that thing and hate it and now that I don't understand search on it I started to get it. But that's what that's the way Cuber movies. Absolutely, he didn't believe in just giving it all up front. He would make

you think about, well, you know what. I think that his style was so the best way I can describe it is that he intentionally wanted you to leave the theater thinking that you had missed some grander point, because usually you had right but even if you hadn't, even if it was kind of straightforward. And that's why there's all these theories about all these different movies, is that you always end his movies thinking you've missed some huge point, even if there's not. It's just his way of show

giving you the story. That's just the way that he tells stories. I guess. I mean, I didn't let in. I didn't leave the theater after the clock recordings thinking I missed the point. But maybe I did. I don't know. Well, yeah, I mean I think for me, you know, as you read a little bit about him and you you start to actually kind of intellectualize about the movies, you realize like, oh, there's so much of this kind of ethos around him

that there must have been some bigger message there. It wasn't just about this one thing, even with you know, Doctor Strangelove. The more you start to watch his movies, the more you're like, Wow, did I miss something? Did I like, was there some really poignant thing there that I totally missed? And I think that even right though, even if there wasn't something, because I don't think there always is, but that's the way I would describe it. No,

I would say, that's that's not that's an app description. Absolutely. Yeah. And all one last thing before you run off to him to watch his entire catalog. If you're not going to do that, another one I would recommend his Paths of Glory with Kirk Douglas. Have you guys ever seen that one? No? No, I don't know that I've ever seen that one. Yeah, that's good movie. Okay, Well, let's let's give the a little bit of bio data here on. Stanley made his first movie in nineteen fifty one, which

was a It was a really short documentary. He acquired funding for it himself. I mean, in fifty one, it cost a thousand bucks and he had to raise that cash on his own. His last movie was in nine Eyes Wide Shut, which I believe didn't Spielberg finish that movie? You know, I swear I saw something that said that he wasn't involved in them, like an interview. Yeah. I remember reading aim at it somewhere because apparently the movie

wasn't completed, but maybe it wasn't Spielberg. It feels like this is the sort of thing that like like, yeah, it's kind kind of cool lore if it is, but I don't think we'll probably ever confirm it. Yeah. Um, well, I I think we've talked. We've talked a lot. I mean, so far we told you about Stanley, and the last thing I want to tell you is that, including the short documentaries or the short films he made in the beginning, he did a total of sixteen movies in forty years.

A lot. No, but but you also need to remember that his movies took anywhere from one to two years to complete, after which point he was exhausted because he did everything. He did all of he you know, he's involved in our direction, in the cinematography and the soundtracks. He did all of the editing. He had cutting it wasn't he Yeah, well yeah, and he had he had it all sent to his home and he he did all of the edits, and and the thing about it is is he would take some scenes over, he would

take many, many takes. Well, we're going to talk about this later. It's like that a lot. Yeah it is. Yeah, well I think that might be one of the shortest descriptions we've ever done on the show. But we're done talking about all those things. We're gonna jump right into theories. Well, it's not really theories, is it. Theories and interpretations. These are just or just not our theories, but theories that other people have. Oh yeah, well most of times theories

aren't our theories. But but yeah, I guess, yeah, interpret how would you describe it? No, I guess theories about because it's not really like theories of how this thing happened, right, it's theories of what mean okay, and also why perhaps Kuber did it? There we go meanings and reasons this week on Thinking Side Wins. Okay, well, we're going to start out with my favorite one. Yes, we're gonna start out with the first meaning slash reason, which is the

moon landing. Because it was fake let's talk about Well, no, no, these theorists starn't saying that it was faked. They're saying we made it to the moon, just that we didn't make it to the moon at this particular moment where the footage isn't right. So let's yeah here, let me let me get this. There's actually more. It's more than that, right, It's more than just saying, oh, you didn't make it to the moon and we did it on a sound stage. Because they're not saying we didn't make it to the moon.

They're saying that the footage that was sent of Neil Armstrong and buzz Aldren hopping around on the moon for twenty some odd minutes was fake. Was fake? Right, that's what it said. Yeah, I do. I think it's important to clear that. That is a good point. But why if we made it to the moon, because we have let me get into this first and then we'll cover that at the end. You are you are just for

the end of everyone tonight, all right. According to this, Cubrick was the one who did all of the filming of the Astronauts on the Moon. He directed it, and he then had remorse over it, and so he's explaining that through things in the movie The Shining. Officially, according to history, the United States landed on the Moon and a manned mission in nineteen sixty nine, that's when we talked about buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong certainly lost that name.

You would think I'm the one who's been working crazy hours. But in nineteen sixty eight, which was the year before that happened, Cubrick released two thousand one of Space Odyssey, and that had some really elaborate space scenes in it, on the Moon and guys floating around in space, and that was all done with a technique that is called front projection. The simple version of what front projection is is you have your actors. They're standing in front of

a camera. You have some kind of plane behind them so that the ground doesn't just continue to go flat, something rises up and they're physically on. Right behind that is a reflective surface, which I'm just gonna call a mirror because it basically is a mirror. But that mirror is big and turned at an angle, and from the side another camera is projecting something on it. It's so that they look like they're in front of what's being projected, whether it's still or motion film. Right, So it's like

pre good green screen. Absolutely, there was technology at the time where you could fake the backgrounds, but it was really bad. My favorite I always think of that old these movies Sinbad in the seven scenes where the guy is, you know, the genie is is going around and you can tell that they're they're showing it on a movie screen from the other side. So he didn't want that because he looked like crap. So he used this technique

and therefore what and therefore it was very realistic. And there's a there's a very easy scene in two thousand one that I think shows this, where I think it's three people are standing on lunar surface and they're on a bit of a ridge, and I even noticed that part of the bottom of the scene was taken up by lunar rock and it seemed odd to me. But

that's a very easy example of how it worked. So what they are then saying is that this is how he made the footage that we all saw or that everyone saw in the and in fairness, when you watched two thousand one Space Odessey or you look at the pictures of them on on the quote unquote moon, it looks really good for that time. It actually looks pretty dang good for this time with our CJ C G I technology. Yeah, you know, I mean except for the footage of like you know, of spaceships and that. And

I'm right, I'm admitting the Discovery. Discovery was a huge model if they filmed on sound stage that. But you see this, you see, like early on you see a satellite going around the Earth and it looks like they drew it on cardboard. Yeah. But that's the only thing about the movie that doesn't look great today support of this theory. Right, you look at the images of these actors on a sound stage with this front projection on the quote unquote moon, it looks real good. And if

you think about front projection. And then I went back and watched some of the footage of the landing the camera the lunar surface takes up about half of the left frame and then slope so that it's taking up about a quarter of the right hand side of the frame. So that is, of course for this more ammunition to prove that it was fake. And it's grainy, you know, it's not you know, I think there are some points to be made about this, whether or not I totally

believe it. Yeah, and we're going to move away from front screen or front projection. He wanted to call it front screen for some reason, but it's not. We're now going to move to the Overlook Hotel in the Shining and we're going to go to the second floor. You, if you've seen the movie, you know this because it's the red yellow or red and orange brown hexagonal carpet. Yeah, and this is this is towards why right, this is

evidence of him telling the story. Yes, it's saying that he used that carpet as a way to make a very obvious clue that he had faked the Moonland. Yes, that we're no longer on the This is how he faked the moon Land. Correct, not how, but this is his way of tells and and exactly how does that revealed? If you if you look at launch pads at Cape Carnaveral, Cape carnaval suddenly can't say that word either, Cornaveral, putting the R in a weird place. Steve, It's it's fine.

It's like when I said cavalry instead of cavalry. Both of those are wrong. Wrong. Well, yeah, there's there's the cape the Cape Carnaveral pattern. But if they're saying that because those those launch pads are in heck shapes, but they're not perfect hexes because it'll land around them. You can see, and I've seen images superimposed when the cameras at just the right angle, so the perspective is stretching things out. It's almost a perfect match to a couple

of those launch pads. So he uh Kubrick then had that carpet made. I think it would have gone on bottle roll carpet, and he chose the carpet. I don't know, but this is the same scene where something else a little suspicious happens, right, like the this is the scene where Danny happens to be wearing that sweater. Yes, yes, So that's the other clue in here, is that Danny

is wearing the Apollo eleven sweater. So I think it's part of it is that these things coincide that makes people suspicious, right, It's not just because you can kind of make the hexagonal thing fit. It's also because Danny happens to be wearing Apollo eleven sweater. That is another key piece. Am I jumping? No? No, No, it's it's absolutely an important important thing there. I think this is what you guys were Joe was kind of getting into a little bit, which is why would this footage, the

lunar landing footage around. Yeah, a little bit in this theory, But why did the footage get faked? There was a space race. We had to get to the moon, and of course the Russians were wanting to get to the moon. So according to this we couldn't get there. We couldn't

get there first, so we faked it. That's why it happened, so that we could have supremacy in that that manner, even if it wasn't real, they would think it was real, so we would win, and history remember us as being there first, okay, and then uh so sore they saying that eventually one of the Apollo eventually we got we got men on the moon. Which Apollo mission was it?

They don't say, conveniently, Yeah, yeah. The in and in the readings for this particular theory, you'll also come across some stuff that talks about a strange light in the night sky that shouldn't be there according to the stars, and there's a million reasons why that is. But the theory says that there was a random light on in the studio that that mirror picked up. Oh, it's interesting. That's not what I what what I had read about it. It was that it was the light of the projector.

That's where the projector was like pinhole hitting. That's what I read the talking about some some light was left on, was what I got. I mean, either way, it's it's yeah, yeah again. Um so now there's there's other ways that According to this, Kubrick tells us that it is the lunar landing and he's sorry. That is. When Dick Halleran takes Wendy and Danny into the pantry, there's Tang cans on the wall, which, of course the astronauts drank Tang,

so did everybody else. I know, I had Tang in my earthquake kit when I was a kid, and I was in the nineties. Like, come on, guys. The other clue, another clue we have is that room, the room where the spirits are, where the scary naked old lady is at is room to the moon even figures two seven thousand miles away from the Earth. The other one that they had in that one, right was the key. Are you're gonna talk about that? No? I hadn't the cow at it because I really was so dumb to me,

it's super dumb. Yeah, but I like to talk about that. The key has a little tag on it right to label what room it is for, and it says room no like number and then yeah but end. Oh and it's a capital end and a tiny little oh. So people say, well, you can only have it say room, or if you add the end it can be moon. You switch it around. So obviously Cubrick was trying to say that it was the Moon Room and everything was fake in there, and that that's he was. He faked it. Yeah,

that's exactly it. So smart. Okay, so there's the last thing. Actually I'm jumping ahead. Um, yeah, you're forgetting about the twins. I am grady girls girls. Okay. You hear him referred to as the twins because the girls who played the characters of the Girls in the Blue Dress are twins. Super creepy, super creepy. Yeah yeah, well you know, I've seen him as adults and they still look really didn't

look that alike. Yeah, I got that too. But people point out the fact that Allman, the manager of the Overlook Hotel, says that they were the greedy girls about eight and ten years old. And in the book they're not twins. So people say, well, obviously this is a reference to the Gemini space program as you were heading too, because he's using twins and when they didn't need to be twins. And you know, we've talked, but Gemini was the space program that was in effect before we started

sending men to the Moon. That's when we're doing all of research because the orbital missions, it was two astronauts and a capsule. In a capsule, actually they did some interesting stuff and it was all leading your research and techniques leading up to the success of apology astronauts get into a popcad basically. But actually that the Gemini missions.

We did our first spacewalk from a Gemini capsule, and then there was one cool mission where they launched they launched one capsule, and then a couple of days later they launched the second one and they actually rendevouted orbit and connected up and stuff and so all kinds of really kind of cool stuff and it was important to the Apollo mission. Lad But but according to this theory, the girls are the direct layer to Gemini. They were the predecess I mean, I get it right. They were

the predecessor to Danny. They were the last kid that lived there, but they were the Gemini. And well, no, because you can't do that, because I say, well, then the Torrents family is three, which would then be a reference to Apollo, but that that takes away the caretaker grading and his wife who were already there, so that doesn't actually work. But but you could spend the theory that way. But Danny was what's tony and also could shine to what was his name? Yeah, so he was three?

Maybe maybe, Well, let's I'm sorry. Here's the last thing that I found everywhere about this, which is in the Colorado room. We see Jack on his typewriter. Wendy comes in and interrupts him, and he pitches a fit and choose her out about his responsibilities and his work. The all the proponents of this say, well, that's a word for word representation of a conversation that Stanley had with his wife about his regrets and the money for doing

the moon landing footage. The problem is that is outright wrong. Be because thank you New York Times. There their stuff is archived and on the net, and there is an interview with Jack Nicholson talking about the fact that he and Cubrick had initially looked at the scene, he had talked to him about the fact how it reminded him of what had happened with him and his then ex ex wife just before and then during their divorce. Nicholson

h Nicholson's Okay, Nicholson's divorce. Sorry, they both were married several times, I think which one we were at that point. But but then so they wrote the scene together, which means that it couldn't be a direct representation of a conversation that Stanley had with his wife. So that I mean, we've shot this one full of holes planet in their apartment. Anyway, you know that it would have been that Cubrick wrote it.

But that's one of the one other fork to stick in this thing is that the represent to thirty seven, representing the two thirty seven thousand mile distance between the Earth and the Moon, is the room number was not actually two thirty seven to begin with. It was to seventeen, and they're thinking that they changed to to thirty seven.

The reason they did that is when they film exteriors a timberline lodge up on Mount Hood, the lodge asked them to use a different room number and not room two seventeen because they were afraid that people would be afraid to stay in room two seventeen. But Joe, they don't actually have a two seventeen. No, they do. Sorry, I've heard it said about this. They're like, but if you call Timberline Lodge, they don't they don't have a room number two seventeen. I've been there, as have you.

I'm sure you know they have a room to seventeen and at it's their most popular room. They don't have a room to thirty seven. Yeah, so what you're saying is right. But I just wanted to bring up that that's a thing that people say, people do push that. Shall we move on to the next one? Yeah? Wow, we beat that one? Or horse? Um, okay, let's talk more about horses, well a little bit. Not really, We're going to go to our next one, which is that this was all about the massacre of the American Indians.

Here's how it goes. When the Torrances first get to the hotel and Stewart Alman is showing them around. He's the manager. He takes tells them that the hotel is built on an Indian burial ground and that during construction they had to fight off Indians, so there's probably some buried there. And then as you see the scenes as they're panning around the hotel, and if you watch, there's a lot of Native American artwork and there are photos that there's at least one very prominent one that is

a man. It's just a headshot of a man in a headdress. Then we talked about, yeah, the artwork which is going to be the tapestry in the Colorado room, which is a huge tapestry, giant thing. So again there's this this this movie has a lot of giant things and a lot of a lot of huge rooms. In this huge rooms, the huge rugs. All the rugs are themed. They're kind of a Native American themes. Some of the floors have inlays that are the Native American themes. So

it's everywhere. But they are saying that that's because he's trying to tell us that this is about the American Indians. Were any pictures of dead Indians? No, but there were Besides that, there is We're going to talk about the pantry a number of times, and we're gonna go back to the pantry right now because when Dick Hallerin shows Wendy and Danny the pantry. There are cans again, big

cans there, big Calumet baking soda cans. It's not surprisingly're there because it's part of the that was a major brand at the time, and it's stockpiling a giant hotel that feeds gads of people. But that can part of it is it's a bright red can and it's got a reverse image of a face with a headdress on, so it's it's a Calcum American Indian. Yeah. I think

that stuff is still sold, right, it is. I it was like, I don't know, we have like four cans, okay, but you know, so there's that time when the cans show up and they're all nice and neat and orderly and all facing forward, and then we're going to flip ahead to win. Wendy locks Jack in the pantry after she clubs him in the head with a baseball back spoilers.

I told you that's a good thing. You watched this. Yeah, Well, at that time, when Jack is leaning against the door talking to Wendy trying to open it, you can see all of these cans on the edge of the shelf except they're now no longer square, they're slightly turned. You can't see everything. So what this says is that that

is representative of the way we can. The American government came to the American Indians and said, we're gonna make all these treaties and we're gonna be very honest upfront with you, which is why all the cans are facing forward at first, and then we changed our mind The American government changes their minds. They do all these things, and they basically break all their promises, which is why the cans are turned to represent that breaking of the promise. Yeah,

I don't know that I really go into that. That doesn't make sense, how the twist of a prop. But I have seen photos of of Stanley there very specifically adjusting the cans. Could have been for lighting reasons or too much detail or not enough. I don't know, you. I was just gonna say that I I think that uh, Stanley, if nothing else, was really good at setting the mood. And I know that there's been a lot of talk about his really great ability in the shining to create

this sense of disjointed reality. And I I I personally just coming from a theater background and having experience in set dressing and things like that, understand that you're supposed to feel uncomfortable in a very regimented way in the beginning, and then things start to fall apart and they get crazier and crazier, and that that's a great way to

make people unconsciously realize it. The fact that people have taken it and analyzed it and all that, that's it's a maybe reading a little too deep in something that he was just trying to make people feel subconsciously. That would be. That's my general reading of that whole thing. You know that he's it is it's supposed to feel like everything's falling apart, so of worse he's going to adjust it and it's not. I don't know. Yeah, I

think that's a linear I guess, yeah, yeah. I think if Cuber could really wanted to make a movie about the massacre of the Indians and the white Man's broken promises, he probably would have just made a western. He would have made an actual movie about it. Again, it's kind of sad that he died as young as he did and he didn't have a chance to make a Western.

It's true he didn't, did He never made a Western. Yeah, well, let's let's keep going with the more of the metaphors that we're going to find in this there's more Indian stuff, Oh, there's there's more so than the next one that we've got is the fact that in the very in sequence, the camera zooms in to the framed photos on the wall, and then the very center one shows Jack Nicholson. They're underneath it. It says Overlook Hotel, July fourth of July.

Fourth of July to most Americans is the celebration of independence. But according to this metaphor, it's emphasizing the fact that that's not necessarily the case for the American Indians because we screwed them a whole bunch and they don't have what they used to have. You know, this isn't again, incredibly weak, because I mean seeing that, seeing that, like the date of July four doesn't make me think of the the Indians, because the Indians this is not really

their celebration of the independent Salmon. Would you ever would looking at July fourth ever make you think Indians? No? But you know again, I'm not part of that culture, so I of course it wouldn't. You know, I'm a normal white guy in middle class America. So that's I'm gonna know it as that thing that it is meant to represent to our class. That's that's where this metaphor is going. I I I'm on board with you. I think that it is a tell of a leap. It's

a big old stretch. It's a big stretch, like a Mr. Incredible stretch. And by the way, just as an aside, that particular shot is really cool. It's a really cool shots. So when it zooms in and slowly moves forward and closes in on these nine pictures on the wall, and then it closes in on the middle picture, and then it closes in further and further and further to Jack

Nicholson standing there part. It's very it's very indicative with his style where it's just so slow, but it's very directed in some instance isn't and others you don't really know what he was going after and he was doing it on purpose. Uh. We have a couple of bits more here. So we have the death of Dick Hallerin. So we know that Dick gets to the Overlook Hotel, he comes in, Jack pops out from around the side of a column, and hits him in the heart with an axe, drops him to the floor and he dies.

Should have brought it gun with him? Yeah, probably he knew it was going on. Yeah, well, of course when we've seen him next, he is laid splayed out and bleeding an According to a lot of the reading on this, he is laying on a rug that has an American Indian design. Well, I'm gonna point out he's not laying on a rug. He's actually laying on the floor. It's

the little lium tile floor I guess would be linoleum. Yeah, when he's not tile, it's in late so it's got to be little Regardless, he's laying on a shiny floor bleeding on it. I will admit it's got some inlays that could be rather you know, interpreted, but mostly they're just kind of half Chevron's in in the corners. So I mean, I think it's okay. It's fair to say that almost every other scene of the Shining either takes place in a kitchen which is clearly tiled, slash linoleum,

or very carpeted. So okay, fine, Yeah, there's something weird happening there. Is it explainable by not wanting to stay in a set carpet with big blood. Sure, why not? I mean if I feel like that's stretching even less and this explanation, Oh well, I've got one more stretch for you, and that's the elevator. We're gonna go back to the beginning of this one when I talked about Allman saying it was a burial ground. Okay, Well, if you think about the way an elevator is constructed, the

first floor is not where it ends. It's shaft and its machinery or farther down and below some of it at least hotel how the basement, that's what they had their boilers. But they're saying there's a shaft going down and that's burrowing into that Indian burial ground, which is why do we have the blood scene where all the blood comes pouring out of the elevator. It's like a splash mountain. Add I splash mountain was covered in blood and gore and it's just it's it flows everywhere and

it's insane. And they're saying that's the release of the spirits of all of these Indians because this thing is plunging into their heart. Yeah, it's releasing them, none of it. None of it. That's melodramatic. I'd the fact that the hotel was built on an Indian burial ground. I mean, Stephen King actually used that particular plot device and numerous books of his. Uh, you know, there was like in

pet cemetery. Wasn't there like the mcmac Indian burial ground where all the evil mojo came from that reanimated the pets. You know, it's so long since I've seen that movie, I don't even remember. But also, this is America. What isn't built on an Indian burial ground? Very true? There's probably there's probably white people too, buried under my house. I mean, well, no, it's more likely Indians. But I mean there's probably a lot of dead white people everywhere.

There's people everywhere, regardless of nationality, and they're all over the place. Yeah, the I guess this is what The third one, well, wow, we're gonna to start talking fast. Yeah, as Job says, talking really fast, let's talk real. This one. This one says is that it's about the Holocaust. That's not the one I found rather tendentious. Sorry, we're hitting that point in the theories where I'm just gonna start saying no. Al right, Well, before you start shouting no,

let me explain that saying not shouting. Oh, okay, well before you start saying no, devonka, let me let me go through it. The first part of this is that it's all based on Nazi symbolism. The Nazis, of course love the Eagle had that on a bunch of their stuff, on their paraphernalia. Our first item that is a Holocaust representation is Jack's Adler typewriter, and that thing seth Holocaust. More of the typewriter, well, it's German brand and it's

got a giant eagle spread across the front um. It doesn't actually explain why the typewriter changes color midway through the film, but believe that it goes from kind of a white cream color to a light blue. But I almost wonder if that's a lighting issue. But it changes color, but it's away they had two types. No, it just seems really I don't know. Maybe um. But there's also the fact that the name Adler, translated from German to English is eagle. It is I even tested that app

because I wasn't. I did too, I really did it. Three times to make sure Google wasn't messing with me. Um, and uh, let's see what else. Oh, there's more symbolism. There is one of the early scenes where Jack is in bed and he wakes up. He's being filmed in the mirror. Wendy brings him breakfast. He wakes up at like eleven o'clock and I love that scene. But for something else, Yeah, Well, if you look, he's wearing a shirt that says Stovington and it's got the eagle on it.

They're saying the eagle is another representation a Nazi symbolism. So pretty much they're saying that it's Nazis because eagles. That's part of it. You want to point out. It's one of the few times I saw Cuber really hold to something in the script, which is are in the book. The name of that school is the school that Jack used to work at, because if you remember the beginning, City used to be a school teacher, and that's the name of the school they worked at. But back to

the Holocaust. Okay, this this one, what is the phrase you used earlier? A bit of a stretch. This one's a bit of a stretch. It's saying that the music that was used in the film. All of those composers were post World War two composers, and that they were all influenced by the war. Ye that's yeah, yeah, there's

just no they're just they're just dating nothing. There. The last thing that they do is math if you take because even even the people who are proponents of this theory say, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but if you multiply two times three times seven, you get which is repre editive of to win. The Germans really took their their plans against the Jews and really

ramped it up and started all of the atrocity. Yeah, but but the better in order to accomplish this, what Cooper had to do was he had to to bribe the people a timberline lodge or it was a convenience to ask for. It was a convenience. But but that's not the only place they're saying it's at. There are forty two vehicles in the parking lot. When we did see the parking lot, did that I did not count them because it was so hard. In that movie they do actually count it. The gh in the doc room.

But also, you guys, seriously, like seriously Danny's wearing a short shirt that has the number forty two on it. There is the number forty two in the license plate of Dick Halloran's rental car. And do you remember when Wendy and Danny you're watching TV and before Danny goes upstairs to get something out of their room, but they're watching a show and it turns out it's the summer of forty two. Also a funny side note, there's no plug on that television. There's no cord. I'm sorry, I

just like forty two. You know what else is forty two is the answer to life in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. If we're going there, we're going there, right right, I mean the Hitchhiker's Guide came out. When did that come out? You know, I don't remember. That would have been a seventies sometime. I would have been before the movie, right, Oh yeah, yeah, Well, I don't know, was it. And they filmed this movie in what nine?

I believe it was seventy late seventy eight, finished up in late seventy nine, and came out in eighty I believe, is how that came Yeah, I mean, I don't know how old Kubrick was. Maybe he was forty two, you, I mean, it could have been his forty second birthday present to him. So yeah, it could have been. Let's see, okay. According to Wikipedia, uh, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy came out in nineteen seventy nine, so then I would have come out at the same time as filming. I'm

just staying, if we're going there, we're going there. Meaning of life somewhere else. I just actually, one thing about the Holocaust that this that this movie is a little reminiscent of, is that at the time, you know, leading at the time leading up to and in the early days of World War Two, Europe's Jews were desperate to get out, and of course they found the exits closed

to them. Yeah, I mean, and seriously, you know, if you're the Nazis and you hate the Jews and the Jews are perfectly happy to leave, you know, why not just let let him leave? Instead they closed off the exit, yeah, which is what Jack Nicholson did in the movie. But he sabotage the radio and he sabotaged the snow cat in the same way though that we said, if Kubrick wanted to make a movie about the Holocaust, would have made Schindler's List. He wanted to he wanted to make

a movie about the Hold, and he did. According to this, I mean, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I was gonna make one, and then Schindler's List came out, and he was actually relieved because he could never get it was gonna be called the Aryan Papers, but he could. He never could quite get it together to have to make that movie, and then was relieved when he didn't have to do it. Right, So he would have done that. He was trying to do that for years. So why

is it shoehorned in here? I don't know, I mean, but I guess my my feeling is right, is that Okay, Schindler's List came out like find so you wait for your next movie, right, Because if he wanted to make a Western, he would have made a Western. If he wanted to make something about the you know, the slaughter of the American Indians, he would have made that western. If he wanted to make a movie about the Holocast, he would have done it, regardless of what was out

at the time. He According to the next one, he also made this movie about the minotaur. Yeah, I want to hate more than any of them. I'm going to make this really brief because it is really simple, and then I'm gonna blow it out of the water a little bit. So if you don't know what the minotaur is, he is from Greek mythology, and it's the body of a man with the head of a bull and a really bad attitude and has a penchant for a living

in mazes. The Shining is about the minotaur because we have the Hedge maze, even though in the book it's actually hedge animals that are down by the playground. That's that's a change. Yeah, the topiary is it topiary to Pietrie, I never know, okay um. But the fact that, like you were talking about earlier, Devin, how things are so disjointed when you move around in that hotel in the movie, that's because it's supposed to be maze like. So that's

another representation of the maze we have. Jack Nicholson, there are quite a few times where he's looking at the camera. He's kind of got his head tipped forward. He's got that kind of blank look or almost semi angry look. But and his widows peak, almost like the same stance or the head angle that you see on a bowl that is about to charge. So again, that's a reference

to it. The last one that I really love, which is the representation of it, is in the beginning of the movie when they go to the hotel, Danny is in the game room and then he meets the Grady girls,

the Grady Twins. When the girls are there, on the left hand side on the wall, there is a poster that says Monarch, and then it's got this strange looking blacked out figure with light coming from behind it that they say is supposed to be a representation of the minotaur, but it's actually got curved legs more like a oat, which would make me think it should be a satyr. You know what, actually though, because this is you're talking about, they talked about this in that movie room to that's

that's one of the places. Yeah, as they were describing it, I was like, I don't see it's a skier. It's a skier. It's a skier. And then at one moment it was like, oh my god, it's I see it with the hook like pointed in the opposite direction, the way that a Hamal's knees would be I I see it. It was like that dress, but like is it black or blue or a goal? It was it was like the moment that I saw it, I can't like, I

can't un see it. That's all I see now is a menator, So I guess well, And and they also they take it farther by saying on the opposite wall there is a it's a piece of art that is a guy on a bucking bronco. So that's the combination of man and beasts. So it's another another metaphor for it. I guess for me, uh see, as I might these kind of imagery things. I still don't understand why he would be making a movie about him like some weird subtext.

It's dumb. I'm sorry, but here's the problem. Here's the problem with this. That's actually a minotaur because we we all know it's a skier. But even if it is a mentor, why but if you pause the movie and you start reading the post or it doesn't say Monarch. It says ski Monarch as in the Monarch recreational Ski area, because that is a real place and it's been existing since like the thirties or something. It's a local area prop.

Although what they talk about in that movie in the room two three seven whatever, I think it is a little bit fair, just given that there is a very explicit discussion between the characters about the fact that the hotel resort should be a ski resort. Yeah, that it should be in there, like, well, no, it's just no, no, it's too hard to keep the roads open. Right, But so I get that, right, that they're reasoning behind, well, it's not a ski resort, but then they have this

advertisement for skiing. Okay, fine, but also why like why also that the mintor lived in a maze? Nicholson didn't live in a maze. He died in the maze. Well, but he was living in the maze. He he lived in a maze until somebody broke the maze, right, somebody broke the maze. I mean Danny essentially Hallerin and Danny would have broken the maze by bringing someone up there in the winter. That's a that's a great point. I

hadn't I had made that connection. But it's still dumb. Okay, let's let's keep sticking with that particular poster as we go to the next in line, which is that this whole movie was about the CIA's mind control program. Of course, as is everything, Yes, well evident A monarch is a reference to the program mk Ultra, which was a program for like twenty or thirty years where the c i A gave people loads of drugs sometimes they knew it, sometimes they didn't to try and figure out a really

good way to get people to confess, basically a truth drug. Also, the super villain in the Venture Brothers is it the yeah, I thought was the successor to mk Ultra, though right that I'm not positive of. I mean, I just did this. I looked at this and I went through some of it, and it's just it's such a stretch. I mean, they're saying that it's basically you're on LSD and that's why this place is so crazy, and it's a representation of you being broken down by the man who's questioning you.

So that's why Jack is breaking down under the weight of the hotel. Is Jack the one that's breaking down, not Wendy. Jack is the one who clearly breaks down. He goes from a very clear minded person two In the end, when he is in the maze, he is not speaking English. He is just speaking gibberish. That's that's the slide that. Okay, yeah, but yeah, any of mind control the themes here, I think you just I Okay, we we have our Holy cow, we're on our last one.

Oh my gosh, our last official our last official one, and then we've got a present for everybody who holds out. Okay. The last theory that we have here is that this is all about a dream. The whole thing is a dream, and I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of summarize these into little bits and then we can take him apart further

if you want. There is the idea that this whole thing is a dream had by Jack as he is suffering the d t S detox because he's an alcoholic who's dried out, and he's also suffering from Rider's block, and so this whole thing is this weird, crazy dream in his head. Yeah. But I mean, and they said in the movie that Shelley, you've all said at the beginning of the movie that he've been on the wagon for like six months. You don't have the d t

S at six months out. No, that's true. But but he's also I guess the dts were the wrong the wrong thing to call it. But he he's wants to drink. He's resisting, but the urge is still there, the craving. So that's what he's fighting, and luckily there was a virtual drink ready for him. There was. And some of the stuff that I've seen that says that their support of this is, you know the fact that weird things only really seemed to happen around Jack, the ghosts only

appear around Jack, if indeed there were ghosts. I mean, everybody saw ghosts, and oh, you're right. In the very very end, Wendy saw the butler, or the not the butler, um Grady, she saw Grady l w And the skeletons, she saw the skeletons of all the corpses in the ballroom, and then she's and then of course he saw it all. Danny saw all kinds of stuff sneak peak, so everybody's everybody saw ghosts and some stuff like that. Remind me not to go to this place? What Timberlin, Yeah, exactly.

Well that's a great that's a great way to segue into our next bit of is this is dream? The part about Danny is that maybe the whole thing is actually in Danny's head. So it's Danny having a dream and it's from his point of view, and it's all in his imagination. It's not really happening the way we are shown on screen it happens. It's interesting as as we talk about Jacket being Jack Stream being Danny's dream, they talk about there's only one actual supernatural thing that

happens in this movie, right, pantry. It's Jack getting out of the pantry because he's locked in there by Wendy. Actually he's knocked out out. Yeah, but according and we that's what we're led to, right. But I actually do like the theory that is brought up in a lot of different places that it's actually Danny, Yeah, that Danny lets him lose, because we don't see Danny, right, We don't know where Danny is at that point, right, he's because he's not anywhere. I mean, there's no documentation of

him being anywhere. And I do like that theory a lot. And I also think that it lends credence to it being Danny's dream or there's another version of it that it's all Danny's fault, Danny with his shining is actually causing all of the things that are happening. Brain, right, are you even to talk about that that he takes over Wendy when she's when she's um fighting jack Off. I don't, I haven't. Yeah, I think they're they're there.

Actually was another supernatural thing that happened that was a little bit earlier in the mod me when he's playing with a little toy cars and and the ball comes rolling up and he happens to be right down the corridor from good Old Room to seven. Right, yeah, yeah, so there were so there were two things that physically couldn't possibly have happened, and then they were caused. But

where the ghost stick over? Of course maybe Jack Nicholson was down the corridor and he rolled the ball at him, did throw the ball, and that brings up the tennis ball, and that brings up the weird sense of space, right that you don't totally know where everything is in relation to each other in this hotel that they live in. So it's possibly right, he's like throwing the ball and if everything lines up the way your brain wants it

to line up, he's tarning the ball. It hits a weird angle and it just rolls down the hall to Danny, but you don't know that, like there's no way to know where it actually lines up. And actually when that happened, when he was playing with the toys, that was right about the same time that Jack Nicholson was was passed

out of sleep over his typewriter in that room. He wasn't throwing the ball, and then he he starts having a hideous stream and starts screaming to sleep and everything, right, and so that's not all about happened at the same time, there's a lot of there's a lot of weird stuff around that specific supernatural moment, right, because that's also when the continuity gets weird of the hotel, yeah, of the layout of the hotel, of even just the carpet, the

physical carpet below Danny that because it flips, Yeah, it rolled, the ball rolls up to him in this like kind of pathway in the carpet ing that leads into the geometric shape that he's been playing in. And he stands up and it's flipped. He's standing a degree, he's facing the other direction, which is the same thing actually happens when Hallerin is showing Wendy and Danny the pantries, and they go in the pantry one way and then they

walk out. It's a completely different areas. So, but those things happen all the time, and those are big questions I think for me about the movie. Whatever theories I believe it's a dream, it's you know, the Holocaust, whatever, they're big questions because it seems like given the rest

of Cubrick's filmology film allocology, I guess that works filmology. Yeah, his catalog of films that he was really big on details and continuity, and so for him to kind of overlook those things seems significant, I think a lot of times. But but there's also the fact of the sheer volume they shot for a year, There's the sheer number of takes. He then edits it all himself. I see details disappearing.

But you want to talk about the sheer number of takes, which particular one do we want to go into the fact that Shelley Duval was admitted to the hospital like a couple of times during the filming because she was in a constant state of um exhaustion and mentally, he was under a lot of and that one seventeen takes

seventeen takes. Yeah, that must have taken a couple of days. Well, I have before we get into the final thing that we got for all of our listeners, I have one final thing that I want to throw out there that I am surprised never came up in any of the research, and I've never read anywhere else. Do you remember Jack is in the Colorado room on his typewriter typing All Work and No Play makes Jack adult boy? That Cubrick wrote you know that right now? No, he didn't, he did,

He did not. I thought secretaries hated Cubrick because he made them type it up and he wouldn't let them xerox. It's so the secretaries actually wrote it, because there's all that behind the scenes footage of him typing away on that orange typewriter, right, but he's typing on little itty bitty sheets. It turns out he's rewriting the script right right. Yeah, no, um our our our. I got that bit of information from an inside source, and it turns out that no,

cubric didn't write any of that. So that's that's buccus. Okay, sorry, but All work and No Play makes Jack dull Boy is thirty three characters I counted. When we see Jack in the Colorado room and he resets the carriage and he starts typing. If you listen, twenty six key strokes before he resets the carriage again. Go a little farther. Wendy when she first discovers what Jack has been typing, and she's spinning through the pages. They show twenty six

different pages with that text on it. So what does that mean? Well, probably nothing, but have the question like under the heading, you know this is all a dream. I've only ever heard it's Jack or it's Danny. I've never heard it's Wendy. Have a nightmare or a breakdown or a breakdown. Right. Her character in this movie is very um bird like in her mannerisms and her her actions and her attitude. She's very timid and scared. But

I get for me, you know. She even kind of says in the very beginning, as Jack is saying, Hey, we're going to go do this thing for our family, She's like, well, I don't really want to go do that thing, and so for it to be a nightmare of hers of this is how it could turn out. The inconsistencies, by and large, happen when she's involved, right some most not all though, but so like, okay, the other things that happened right like okay, So Jack cheats on her with an attractive lady who turns out to

be like a bog monster. Right, her son is like super injured by weird supernatural things. She has a breakdown over Jack, saying like, hey, nothing's going on, the fact that it could just be a movie about her mental breakdown in isolation, that's compelling to me. I know people, I know a couple of people honestly currently who could have imagined something like that. I wouldn't be surprised if

that's how they're experiencing life currently. To be honest, you know, I always hate that, you know, whatever a movie or anything like that, I was in the end, the guy always just wakes up, you know. I hate that crap. So I'm not buying this crap at all the way out Now, nobody was dreaming, can we give our gift? Now we can give our gift. At the last minute,

we got a lucky break. Um. There's a producer friend that we know who's involved in Hollywood Lucas, and he happens to know the guys, a couple of folks who were evolved with filming of The Shining, like more than a little involved. It was it was a last minute Yeah, I mean absolutely, I wasn't even was It was just me. Okay, So we got to talk to uh, Brian Cook. He was the assistant director on The Shining. He worked with Sanley on almost every one of his credit on literally

every single movie. Yeah seven, and he didn't like it. Yeah, and so we've we've got. I was able to get an interview with him, and he's given us some great stuff and his impression and his thoughts on this. I'm gonna tell you now. It was done by Skype, and because it was such a last minute thing, audio is not the best. I stopped hearing the audio issues after a minute or two, but you probably will too. He's super interesting, he is. It's so interesting that that just

does become a problem. So without further ado, we're gonna I'm gonna talk to Brian and then we'll come back to you. So it sounds like to me, and and tell me if I'm wrong here, is that things were set in stone. I mean it sounded like things were you had so much going on that it was always a little bit flexible as as you work through scenes

and shots and how much of that would you say? Oh, definitely, I mean always with Stanley, you'd like the scene first, get all the art directions, set on addressing, and then he's bringing the actors into rehearsed and rewrite the scene and sit down with them. That would take a day, send him away to learn the lines, then come back and then we'd carry on lighting and then start shooting. Okay,

the whole process was like that with him. I mean not exterios on Barry Lindland, for instance, because it was so difficult in Ireland islands, very difficult, you know, with the weather changing. I think probably you know, we would have Grant recast Ryan O'Neil when we closed down after six weeks on Barry Lindon. To be honest with you, he certainly thought about it. But if we hadn't had to go back to the South and we shoot all

the exteriors. But anyway, you know, of course, that's why guys like Stanley like to shoot interiors so they can control the light, they can control everything when you're out something in the laugh of the guards, you know, Yeah, and some of the stuff that I over in is that, you know, Stanley like to take a lot of shots of the same scene. Yeah, and sometimes what I've pretty described it's excessive before and I don't know, yeah, I mean, I'm sure a lot of a lot of the final

shapes that use weren't, you know, take six teams. But Jack got the message and you know, he learned. You know, I don't really wind up until that. Don't put too much in early on with It took him a little while, you know, but the first month, but once we saw his working hours and everything out, there was no problem with Jack. Yeah, you know, because as I said, he didn't even have a standing. I mean, can you believe that?

But Stanley, you know, the crew used to stand in and then of course you'd bring in the actors to life properly. Yeah, I mean, but that's the way it worked. I mean, no one else would work like that. But I mean it was a wonderful. Uh. It's such a holiday after working with Stanley when you go to work with other people, because you don't get along with app you just get do it automatically. You know, it doesn't get questions. But you know, once you get used to it.

I used to have a lot, spend a lot of time telling new people, like, for instance, we had two or three art directors we got rid of early on before Roy came back on ice weight chart. They used to say to me, Brian, but you know you've got to build the said, I said, I know all that. We've got people for thirteen weeks daring around London every night taking photographs of New York streets. And I said, of course we aren't going to shoot. We did shoot for two nights, I think on the street in London,

a side street. I said, we'd be building all this eventually. I said, but you've got to go through this stuff with Stanley. You know, if you told him a warning rather sold Terry saml But hell, you know, shoot it all in London who looks just like New York and say, I don't so was we do not bad? I mean you know that. That's that's saying what the rules are with Stanley. I mean they're all very well aware of that.

These guys are smart. Guys are Warner Brothers are all smart, John Galli, Um, Bob Daily, Terry Samuel, you know Ted Ashley in the old days, you know they're not mugs. These guys were very very smart, successful people, um, and they didn't interfere with him at all, you know, and going on with him. But he had a winning track record. He made them money so over the years, you know, and of course he was an imposing person to be

on the payroll. I mean, you know, he was a great a director, and studios have got to add that. And Robert Benton, who was a very good director and writer anyway, on Billy Basket all that was a flock film, and so was Seller actually, but I certainly worked on some blocks over the years. Expensive One had a few of those out there in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing when you think about it. But what else can I help you with in terms of well, so, actually, here's

the reason that we're conspiracy stuff. Yeah, that's I was gonna get. That's where I was headed here, is that I've read a lot of this stuff, and just through interviews and research with other people, I found things that are wrong with these But what in general, I mean, what is your take on all of this conspiracy stuff? Like all these great guys, He'll moved continuity things out because if it's something in the frame, no matter how

continuity is. If if it affects the frame being what he thought was a perfect frame, it would go and then it would come back in on the next thing. All that sort of stuff. But I mean, I went to see that awful film with my son and his partner, business partner, and we went to what we went to see it, and we left halfway through while we retired to the bar halfway through. So embarrassing. How they got away with making that and getting it distributed is amazing. Rubbish,

absolute rubbish. But of course there are many different things that happened over when do you think where you've shot for nearly a year on the Shining and even the Little Boy, I mean, if you want to figure out things, there's a million mistakes which you can go backwards and forwards to the scenes months later. And also the actors change, I mean, the Little Boy changes in look to be honest with you, you know, all those sort of things.

So there's certainly no conspiracy that I know with Stanley, I mean, even worse than ones about the moon landings and all that. I mean, where do these guys come from? It's unbelievable, what a lot of morons there are so many fruitcakes out there in this world. It's unbelievable. The boot learning is a pretty big stress to me. Oh, it's absolute joke. But he was. He was a very very good director Stanley. You know, a lot of people used to say they didn't think he was good with actors.

I thought he was very good with actors. He gave them every opportunity to do whatever they wanted. And I know for a fact because I've worked three times with Jack. I've been lucky enough to work with him three times, two of them with Sean Penn directing. He was excellent director. By the way. I just did a film with him last year which I think is going to be a very good film, recalled The Last Face Shall You Throw On?

And Javier Bardam, which we shot in Africa, so all set in the refugee counts in Serially Sudan and very interesting and a little bit in the United Nations. In Switzerland we've got Serially and a Liberia, So a big film. I think it would be a very good movie. He's a good director. Um, but no, all those conspiracies is absolute crap. I mean, order Starry used to say to me when we didn't know what we're doing. He said, well, we're the French film critics. Tell us what this was

supposed to be about those sorts of things. Very very very funny man, I mean, you know, very humorous guy standing, very dry and had a very good sense of dry cent of humor about people in the film industry. That's for sure. I love talking to that guy. Interesting, man, I know the word. The hard part is it was an hour and a half conversation, Like we talked for so long about so much he gave me. He's the one who told me about the typewriter, the pages. Yeah,

so that's how I know. Well, he also had that to say about the continuity thing. He said, you know, that's not a conspiracy. It's just that sometimes he would look at it and say, you know, that chair just does doesn't it really kind of it's kind of changes to balance the scene. So let's put that chair out. Then the next scene the chairs back in, you know. Was yeah, and that's it was really nice of him to actually make the time everything and ran and everybody

who helped us get that. That was fantastic. I think you know, Steve said, listen to this interview so that we can talk about it a little bit, and I just responded with, how did you get that? In? Oh my gosh, that is so cool. But I think he makes some really really good pointstatic because in fairness, right, like you want to believe there's so much lower around Stanley Kubrick, right, people say like, oh, he had an IQ of two hundred, which is bunk. I mean maybe

he did. He seemed like he was like a really really smart guy. I don't know if anybody has, but I think that to make claims that the shining of all of his movies had all of this subtext, I think he wanted to make a horror movie. He did and and yeah, like he you know, like it says in the interview like Jack Nicholson realized real quick, like hey, maybe you don't give a on your first take, like

it's never going to be perfect. And I think that that explains so much of the movie, like, especially since you're working with an actual five year old, when you get into the continuity of the carpet was different, like well he was a five year old. Like they took it from different angles, but they came back the next day and they didn't check their their their polaroids to know what the scene exactly was said up that, I mean,

all these things happened, of course. So my personal take is that Stanley was a great director and a great filmmaker, and he had a fantastic eye for detail for what should and shouldn't be in the shot. His use of one point perspective is I've never seen anybody else pull it off like he does. He was great at what he did. Was he making all of these over or not are not overt things? I don't I don't think so.

I think that he left so much up open to interpretation on purpose, not knowing that people were going to go nuts, and it drove him crazy because there there are statements from him saying some whack job makes something up, but then it sticks and it won't go with I can't say enough that it's not right. Yeah, so the genie got out of the bottle. Yeah, much more than

I think he intended. As Devin and I had both said repeatedly, if he wanted to make him movie about the end or you know whatever, he would have just done it. Yeah. It was, you know, it was, you know, that big question mark on all of his movies. Sure, but he made movies about what he wanted to make movies about. And sometimes you just have to set a sense of place where like a kid happens to wear a good well sweater of Apollo eleven or things that a boy of that age at that time would wear,

is what he was looking for. You know, back in those days, you know, the Space Program was still a big thing for kids. When I was a kid, you know, I was that was all nuts about the Space Program. I thought it was really awesome. You still are? You got that helmet that we have to make a take off because we can't hear you. I think, I don't know. I think it's it's fair to say that, you know, there were just a lot of takes that happened with this movie, and it's not a whole lot deeper than

it should have been. I would I would agree, wholeheartedly absolutely. Okay, well, everybody, we are going to go ahead and put a bow on this one. Finally, finally, this is a longer one than I realized it was gonna be. We will have links and this episode, of course, as always on our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, and you can streen the show from there or downloaded. A lot of folks use iTunes and a lot of folks stream through

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We have the Facebook group and the Facebook page, both of which are a lot of fun. And if you have any thoughts about what we've talked about or the things that we've missed, and I apologize, this episode is long already and there's so much lore and little facts in details that we had to cut we couldn't bring in. Be aware that we didn't not know a lot of

these hubric things. It just takes a lotle. I'll talk about it, yeah, and then you know, we have the interview who but like basically, but if you have if you've got something great to share, about Kubrick and you want to, you can send us an email at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Apologize to folks in advance because I know that we've been okay about it, but there's a big event that is coming that is going to be around the time that this episode drops,

so we might be a little bit delinquent. Yeah, sorry, it took all of us away. Uh. And last, but certainly not least. If you like what we do here at the show and you're enjoying it, uh, you do consider helping support the show to to put up more episodes like this. We're on Patreon, so it's Patreon slash Thinking Sideways patreon dot com. Yeah, slash Thinking Sideways. You can go there. You can set an amount that you would like to donate to the show per episode, completely voluntary,

absolutely voluntary. You know, if you decide you don't want to do anymore, you can quit or it's just not your bag. We're going to keep doing this, but we do appreciate all of that help. No no pressure, because I certainly don't hit the tip chart every blog that I go to. So now we try. I know I try, but it's hard because there are so many out there. We understand that there are that. I think that's enough. So ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna go ahead and sign off,

and we will talk to you next week. Oh bye, guys. Yeah, oh hey, hey guys. So we actually didn't leave yet. It listened. There was so much great audio in our in my conversation with Brian, that I wanted to share a little bit more of it with you. It didn't fit in the path of the podcast in terms of where we were in the story and in the theories. But this is great stuff about the things that he did, and so we're going to bring that to you right now. And so much bleeping, you guys, I'm so exor yeah,

there's a little bit of bleeping. There's a good number of bleping. If we didn't edit our show, this is what it would sound like to Yeah, I'm not putting Brian down because I certainly say those words too. It absolutely enjoy you guys. Okay, goodbye for reels. Yeah, we meet at this time. But I think that conspiracy stuff, I mean, it's just nonsense. That's all you can say about it. To be honest, it's hard to sort of make a program on it because you know, it's difficult.

I didn't know quite how you do it. Just you look at all the things and so well, this is not true. Well that's that's kind of what we do, is we find what we can to pull apart, and then we just give everything else and say this is what they say. Yeah, and you know I can assure you that none of that ever came into play. I mean you could. You can feel from what I've been talking to you about the tiny minu shirt detailed trivia that we used to play with it on everything. Yeah, everything,

no matter what you ordered. You know, Stanley would want to know. And you know Stanley used to print the phat the payroll printed out every week. You'd look at the petty cash everything. I mean, you know, you don't know how standing a time of doing and even think about directing the film. That was the last thing that get around for doing it, you know, But you get used to it, and you get used to working his way, and he is very loyal and you find all these

what I call big good directors. You look at the credits over the years, same old cameramains, same old production designers, same old editors, same old assistant directors when they get somebody who they can also get on with, because if you're working with someone like Stanley, I mean, obviously there's a two and a half years on the last picture. That's a lot. Yeah. Well we shot for a year and a half nearly or something with a lot of stops,

so that I mean we shot the nearly three hundred days. Um, you know you need to have people that you can get on with. I mean it's not and I must say, you know, in fairness, someone like Tom I mean he was incredible on the last time I thought. I mean, he's a very easy guy to get on with and was of course. I used to say to him, I can't understand. You better get a new agent. I mean, you're here for a team, but I can't believe you've got an open ended deal. You much should have talked

to Jack. You know. He used to keep coming to me and saying, Brian, I've got three other films to make. I said, if we haven't need to start, I said, don't worry back. Can you see the light at the end of the tunnel? I said, you only left the hotel to go to the stage to get on the train. Yet, don't find a tunnel. I mean, nice guy though, and

got on very well with Stanley. I remember only two occasions in eighteen months when he lost his rag a bit, and that was only during rehearsal when there was no one there. I have to be outside the door where I used to be when these was just with two three actors and Stanley, and he comes straight back after five minutes and apologize. You know, yeah, nice guy. I liked him very much, and I've worked with Nicole quite a bit, so you know, I knew them very well. Really, yeah,

so so that that they were fine. Strange movie, strange choice of the movie. I was very surprised when I read the script that that's what we were going to make, because really Stanley wanted to do AI, you know, that's what he planned on doing. But I think the studio were a little who knows whether it's true or not.

My guess was that they were very you know, it would have been a very very expensive film with Stanley doing it would have been very different films to Spielberg's efforts on It would have been a very different film. But he spent a lot of such a lot of time preparing it, you know, Um, I think they wanted to make a all the film, and I think the idea was that warners, we're going to split it with Steven Spielberg in terms of financing. You understanding that was

the idea. But I mean there's no the thing as making a small film is you know that what doesn't exist, and it's very difficult for these sort of guys because you've got to try and do something better than you've done before. It was the same problem for David Lean. You know, my father did six films with David Lee. Where are you based. We're based out of Portland, Organs.

All right, well, of course should that to the Overlook Hotel? Yeah, yeah, we I have not been, but I know Joe has been to the Timberline one of the other co hosts, of course, but yeah, we saw a lot of that footage. It's very familiar. Yeah, of course, I'm sure. And of course the opening sequence which I got Greg to do in the end was in Heaven's Gate Country of course, where we were in Glacier National Park. I mean that he did a great job for us, Greg, you know,

they were he was the chop man and very good. Um, I'd work with him in Greece many years ago on a film with James Koburn called The sky Riders and they were really terrific Jim and he got killed unfortunately on the scouting trip for a commercial that chopper came down. Jim. Yeah, very sad, but yeah, he's a good guy. Greg mcgilby did a great job on that opening sequence. Yes, atlastic. Yeah, never worked by car. We spent three months they've been

around doing it from front bank again with cars. Yeah, yeah, at all I knew that would be but you know, use your staff were standing that you start you on the cheep and then I had to spend the money. But you know, he wasn't white about the schedule stand He was more interested in the weekly running costs. He would keep those as low as possible, small screw apart from when you needed them, you know, to keep because he knew he was going to shoot for a long time,

you know. And um, but he certainly was a unique guy, no question about that. I mean, a true visionary. My father did a lot of stuff six films with David Lean and also worked with Stanley said that for him, David Lean was the best storyteller of all of the big directors, and he'd worked with Houston a lot, and he thought David Lean was the best storyteller of a major novel bringing it to the screen, and that Stanley was more of a visionary who had terrific vision for movies.

You know. I think that was a pretty good description of it from the old man, actually, because I think that's the case. I mean, David Lean was a wonderful director of math. And of course all these guys, these big guys, they can work on a big canvas, which a lot of them can't do. I mean I did a lot of films with Michael Jamino, I know, not that successfully in the last few years from Heaven's Gate, but Michael could work on a big canvas, you know,

A Coupler can Ridley can, Michael Mann, Cameron. You know, these guys can many many directors can't. They're very good on a smaller canvas um and make them very good films. Of course they did, I mean excellent films. But you know, that big canvas thing is it's something you've either got you haven't. Yeah, absolutely, that's another world out there doing that. And also you know the costs that go with that on those sort of movies, they all escalated. I mean

particular period films. You know, I've never understood anyone who ever thinks that they can make a big period film for the money that started you start out with. Its

just impossibility. I mean, you only ever get the leading ladies on the period film for six seven hours a day, because you know, time to get them there in the morning, to get them ready, couple of hours at least, getting them ready, dressing them, lunch, chack all the gear off, get them back after lunch, remake up, the travel time, all of you know, I think you know my experiences. You get six seven hours working day off of the leading lady on a big period movie, well, I mean

everyone schedules these things for the twelve our days. Well, it's not existent. I don't know one's ever worked that out. Yeah, it amazes me every time we talk about it. It's very Yeah, of course, the thing is, you know, much of your style on those big films. It's like a great big tanker at sea, and stopping them and turning them around is a whole different ballgame in it. Yeah,

it doesn't happen. I mean you just got to hope that you know, you get Lucky heard a free the other day trying to turn the Titanic with the canoe paddle, and that sounds like that's appropriate. I've been on a few of those, yeah,