Thinking Sideways: Keddie Murders

about the Ketty UFO incident. Don't get people's hopes now, I know no UFOs and Ketty and there might have been I don't know, but just a brief warning. This is this is about multiple murder mystery and it's kind of gruesome. Yeah. Yeah, it's not nice. I was not excited doing the research. Yeah, I don't want to. You should have watched the documentary. Na, did you read the autopsy reports? Maybe was it in the research? Yeah? Then yes, I don't blame you for skipping them. At least there

are no photos, although you know it's funny. No, go ahead, I'm talking to go off on that rabbit hole. Yeah, okay, so we're talking about the kitty murders. Yes, famous kiddy murders from one. But first I want to give a shout out to our listener, Clarissa. Hello Clarissa. Sorry Clarissa.

I'm sure you get that a lot, so sorry. But anyway, Actually I found this one on my own like a while back, and as I was researching it for this week's episode, I went through the listeners suggestions and discovered the guests actually somebody had suggested it, so you get to have credit where credits do indeed. So yeah, thanks Clarissa. Okay, let's talk about Ketty briefly. So, Kenny, California is a very small town. It's getting smaller. It's yeah. Population and yeah,

population in the year two thousand was nineties six. Population in two thousand ten was sixty six. That's almost like wag entire O. I know. It's uh. It started out actually it's kind of successful. When it was first founded, I believe in nineteen ten, it was a kind of a waypoint on the rail line up to you seventy

or somewhere, or off to Utah. But and so there was a nice little resort there and it was a pleasant little place, nice scenery, but it had followed on hard times by the time and by the time our mystery had occurred and it was not really so much a resort town anymore. There were still all these cabins in the resort. The guy, but the guy who bought the resort owned it. Tourists were coming there, so he wounded up renting the cabins out his low income housing. Well,

it was nice of him, pad mortgage. Yeah. Yeah, when you find tennants where you can find tennants, yeah, but then have to be low income housing. So we're so people have an idea. You know, Caddy is close to what major town for people to know, it's about ninety miles northwest of Reno, about about eighty miles east of Red Bluff, California, About sixty miles maybe northeast of Chico, California. Yeah, well, it's like, yeah, the whole areas in National Forest that's

in the middle of the what what national Forests? I think it's the National Forest because it's in Pluis County. That would make Yeah, you know that area of California is really beautiful to see. Eras are just really nice. Yeah. Yeah, have you ever gone on any of those? Uh? I mean, obviously I've never been to this particular town, but have you ever driven through some of that area. Yeah, it's a slow drive, but it's not because it's windy roads. It's because you want to take a look around. Yeah,

except you don't want to stop in Kitty. I know, I don't know. Yeah, our mystery begins in Ketty, in Cabin twenty eight of the resort, which is, of course not not really a resort anymore. Cabin was being rented to Glenness Sharp, who went by the name of Sue and her five kids, Uh, John, Sheila, Tina, Ricky and Gregg. She had a lot of kids, so John, John was fifteen, Sheila was seventeen, Tina was twelve, and the youngest were Ricky and Gregg. They were ten and five. Yeah, yeah,

she was did you say she was thirty six? He was yet six. That's that's a passel of kids in a short amount of time. She cracked out a bunch of them. She had moved into that cabin cay in November nineteen eighties, so they had been living there that long really, maybe half a year. On the night of April eleventh, one faithful night, Sheila, Sheila was the fourteen year old daughter on seventeen. You're right, okay, yeah, John was fourteen. You're right, alright, alr right. The episode where

I get correct you serves me right. So Sheila goes next door to cabin twenty seven for a sleepover with a friend. And Justin Easton, who lived in Cabin twenty six, was friends with the two youngest boys, so he was over at their place. Were a sleepover and this was a Saturday night. Yeah, so sleepovers on a weekend makes sense. Yeah, I remembered you being a weekend. I just couldn't been one day. Yeah, it was a Saturday. And here's a fun fact to Justin Easton was the steps of one

of the suspects for the murder. So those three boys, the youngest ones, went to bed in the back bedroom at some undetermined time. Then John Sharp, he was a fifteen year old, spent most of the day hanging with a friend named Dana Wingate in a town called Quincy, which is seven miles south of Kenny, And they were seen on Highway seventy apparently by a couple who was driving on the highway. Why they didn't stop and pick

them up, I don't know they were. They were hitchhiking back to Ketty from Quincy, and they were seen between nine and ten pm, although I've seen another timeline that has some spotted on the highway at eleven pm, so

there's a little bit of a conflict there. Well. And I know that those boys had been at at Dana's house and had asked to go if they could could stay over at at Johnny's Johnny's house, and one of the stipulations was, yeah, you're welcome to go as long as you can get a ride, you don't hitchhike, and oh yeah, we want hitchhike, don't worry, no big deal. And obviously they totally did it anyway, which is a teenage boy thing to do. Yeah, it is definitely. I'm

not sure what it was like. I mean, I hitched hike a lot when I was not a lot, actually, but I hitchhike some when I was a teenager, and it was a lot easier to get rides back in those days. But then then we had a fewers here and there, and suddenly people are not really into picking up hitchhickers anymore. Yeah, I've never picked up a hitchhike,

nor have I ever hitchhiked. Ever, I haven't hitchhiked. But I grew up in a really small town where you knew most of the guys, and it was typically guys, most of the guys you saw walking down the street. So you'd be driving down, Oh there's Mark. Let me pull over and give Mark a ride, and so Mark would come running the car. Hey, thanks buddy, and you give Mark a ride at least as far as you were going. I wouldn't go out of my way, but hey, I can get you here and then you're on your

own from there and save them ten miles. They're happy, Oh yeah, sure, yeah, Well the way back to these guys they so Dana, as you said, it was planning on spending the night at Cabin twenty eight, and which bad idea, Dana, really bad idea. It's it's unclear when they arrived. Some people of hypothesized that perhaps the crime was already underway when they showed up and just they're

bad luck, really bad timing on their part. Have people theorized that they brought the crime with them, Yeah, actually, and that is that's definitely one of the possibilities I would consider. Yeah, yeah, you get picked up by a Mr. Psycho Killer. Yeah, and and comes inside with you and yeah, can I come? Can I use your bathroom? You too? You too have been alluding to what's going on, and

our listeners don't know what's going on. We gotta tell you about what happened here, because so far we've just board them with information people that don't matter. That's fair. Yeah, Dan's Danni is coming home with Johnny Sharp and they're gonna He's going to spend the night there. They've got to sleep over in the back bedroom, three little three young boys back. They're already gone to bed. Um Sue Sharp and her daughter Tina, who's twelve, are not yet asleep.

And Tina might have been asleep, I'm not sure, but more about that in a second. On the morning of April twelve, Sheila Sharp, who remember what next door for a sleepover. She came home about eight am and discovered that she was an orphan. Of course, yeah, yeah, Actually it turns out she really wasn't an orphan. I checked, and actually she had her father still living, and so they're surviving. Sharp children want to live with the father,

so that's good. So she wasn't really an orphan. And I just couldn't resist, so Sue her son, Johnny Sharp and the friend Dana Wingate had all been bludgeoned and stabbed to death. Yeah, really horrible, bloody crime. Yeah, and and Tina Sharp was missing. Tina sharpwell, girl girl was gone. Yeah. The bodies have been tired up with, tied up with with white adhesive tape, probably medical tape, and also electrical

wire extension chords. Basically yeah, and um, and then they were like, you know, beaten to death with with a hammer and then stabbed death. Amazingly, the three young boys in the back bedroom were untouched and it appeared that they they slept through the whole thing, although it's hard to imagine exactly how they could have done that. Yeah. I I have run through my head a million scenarios on how that would have happened, and as if yet

I can't figure out a way. Well, you know, here's the thing about kids, particularly kids of that age, is when they sleep, they sleep, particularly if they've been raised and maybe uh kind of more difficult home life environment. You know, if you're trained from a child as a baby to sleep through stuff, which is what you do with babies, because you have to because you have to

get stuff done while they're sleeping. They can pretty much sleep usually, you know, five to ten year olds can sleep through you know, at least vacuuming and stuff like that. And you know, unless there it's possible that these murders were carried out without a whole lot of screaming. Given some of the injuries, it's possible that there wasn't actual screaming. And then you know, all the rest of the noises

could have been relatively quiet. Well, and if if there's a TV on and you're used to hear in the TV, then in your little kid brain that all melts together. I mean, I I know that I slept through earthquakes as a kid. I once rolled out of the top bunk of a bunk bed as a kid in my sleep and didn't wake up, so I know the kids can. Yeah, well that that tells you a lot about me now, because I'm pretty sure I laid it on my head.

But no, I mean that that does explain it. But the other thing is that, you know, the only thing that that I could figure out how these boys could have slept through it, if indeed they did, is that Sue she had I think was her underwear and a rag crammed in her mouth as a gag. Yeah, it was like a blue bandana, yeah, which and it was like the blue bandanna was which was jammed into her

mouth fairly deep, yea. And that secured with adhesive tape and then and then like women's underwear wrapped around that. So which I don't even want to get into the Freudian reason that's there, but that the the two boys were not we're not gags as far as I know. Was she the only one who was stabbed through the neck? Now, actually it was her son, John got stabbed through the neck, and so that the cause of death in the case of John was was severing of the crodd artery. Well

that would that could sever some boal. Yeah. Well, but but the thing is they were tied up. Well, let's let's let me ask you this. Are we going to get into the rest of the details about crime later or should we just do it now? I was going to I was going to talk about the autopsy in a minute. Let's let's okay, because because there's some things about like what you were saying, I know some details, but I don't want to I don't want to jump the shark here. Yeah, well that the wrong term. Yeah,

that's the wrong term totally, and our show will never jump. Yeah, there is. There is some dispute about whether Justin, perhaps Justin Easton, actually actually did wake up and open the door and look out and witness are all the and he's given such wildly varying accounts. How old is he though, I'm not sure. I think it was ten or twelve or something like that. He was friends with the younger anywhere from I guess five to twelve. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see how your story could change a couple

of times. Yeah, yeah, Well, the hard thing about his story and the way that it changed is what happened. I know that I was the only one who went ahead and sacrificed three hours of my life to watch the documentaries that were made on this summer. Really into all our listeners. I did it for you. You You don't have to listen to the weird mono and then stereo

audio thing that goes on in this documentary. But they record him and they talk about it, and one is when you listen to this guy tell the account of what happens, and I understand it's twenty some years later because the documentary was done in the early two thousand's. He's been telling this story for years. But he you could see he is just glaze eyed, repeating things like there's no emotion. He's not thinking about it. He's regurgitating words. We were watching it on the couch and my fiance

was sitting there watching it. I was listening to the audio and headphones, and she's going, there's something weird about that dude. And I imagine it's because of what he went through and then all of the attention that was paid on him. But the hard part is I I have a hard part with his story, and I blame it on the cops. Do you guys know that the cops put him under hypnosis. Yeah, the the lead investigator had him hypnotized, so he told the story once it

shifted a little bit. They hypnotized him, it shift a little bit, and then it just kind of it did this weird progression through times. So I really I would like to say that he didn't see anything. I kind of suspect that he didn't and he set himself like you know, on one account, he like got up and opened the door and saw this in another account, it's like he had a dream. It just dreamed the whole thing. So he And the thing about hypnosis too is you

can't force somebody to be hypnotized. The subject has to want to be hypnotized. Well, yeah, maybe they didn't even have him actually under well and here, well that's exactly because during that one during hypnosis, I think one of the things he said is that he was watching from a crack in the bedroom door. As he watched the he said it was two men. Watched them go out into the kitchen and out the kitchen door. But evidently when you're standing in that bedroom you can't see the kitchen.

I think, yeah, I think that this is what it sounds like to me, is like a little kid trying to be helpful. Yeah, you know, nail on the head. You know, it's a little kid who was like traumatized quite frankly by what they saw and trying to be helpful. And if a cop, you know, is in your face saying okay, okay, justin what'd you see? And you go nothing, And they go are you sure you didn't see anything? And you go, well, no, I guess I cracked the door.

I woke up. They're like, yeah, because there's no way you could have slept through that, Justin, You're right, you could. You must have woken up. And then you know, and cops often think they're being helpful or whatever with that, they're actually pulling the story out of the lead. Oh god, I gotta think of something now, because this happened so I don't know. I didn't see the video obviously, so

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, no, it's is I put him under highly questionable as a witness to this whole thing. That's that's kind of the point that I want to go to. So do I Yeah, I definitely do. I'm glad we're on the same page. Yeah, definitely. As I mentioned Tina was missing, Justin was actually the first person that I know of who pointed out that Tina was missing.

In my opinion, the only beneficial thing he did, yeah, I And and funny thing too is he mentioned that the cops weren't really paying attention to Eventually they concluded that Tina was indeed missing. It was one of the parents got involved and listened to him and finally figured out, oh, yeah,

there's a kid missing. Yeah. It's funny that the cops after questioning Justin sent him home and he went home about thirty maybe that morning, down to cabin twenty six, and his mom said something to him like, you know, how how was it or how is it or how are they? And he said they're all dead and she's like, yeah, nad, don't joke around like that, and he's going, no, mom, they're all dead. The sharps are all dead. And she finally figured out that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so maybe

that's one reason he's a little a little messed up. Yeah. No, I don't blame him for his shifting story. I blame the situation probably. Yeah, that's tough one. So they started looking for Tina. Yeah, that major girl hunt was undertaken for Tina Sharp and she was not found. In April nine four, guy named Ronald Pedrini was looking for antique bottles and such things in the woods around Campai teen, which is a place about twenty nine miles away from Kenny,

and found part of a human skull. So he called the cops and then they took it in a possession and they did a search of the immediate area and found nothing. Oh that's not what I heard. Yeah, well, no, that was in That was in April the About six weeks later they got an honest phone call, but I think I was on a thirty as somebody told them to look more around Caine Campaig teen and they found more. They found bones. They found it most importantly, they found

a lower job bone. Yeah, and quote other evidence pieces, right, other evidence pieces. You have part of some blue jeans, h you know, and stuff. I'm I'm not sure if they documented that stuff actually belonged to Tina or not. I don't know if you could at that point. Yeah, I know, but but the lower job bone was key because they could identify her through dental records. Yeah. So so it's hard to say what happened to Tina. Obviously they took her for a reason. I don't think they

just killed her and hold her body away. But we'll talk about that in a little bit. Do we have to two weeks in a row? Really? Come on, you guys, you're killing me here. Well more cheerful note, you guys want to talk about autopsy autos? Okay, su Sharp. First, her autopsy reported considerable dried and smear blood on the soles of her feet, which is interesting, which indicates that she actually was on her feet, because she didn't have wounds on her feet, but she was on her feet,

apparently walking through blood. At some point they found her on the couch, laying down on the couch with a blanket over here. Yeah yeah, but at some point she had walked through the blood. Nobody really knows why. At this point her wrists and ankles were bound by white Did he take sorry? Did they find footprints in the blood, like on the floor, I have not found any mention

of that. They probably they probably were bloody footprints. I think think hard because Sheila came home and likely checked the bat. Right, she's the one who discovered this scene. She didn't go in the house. She opened the door and looked in and saw everything and screamed and ran. Yeah. Yeah, that's yeah. Yeah, But but no, I I've looked at those pretty extensively. Unfortunately, I've looked at the crime scene photos and there are blood smears all over, But I

didn't see footprints. So it's almost like there was blood and you were standing in the pool of it and then moved somewhere else. So you're not walking. If you catch what I'm going for here, you were standing in it and then you're not walking anymore. Yeah, but I don't know. I didn't see footprints anywhere. No, I didn't see any either, and they're not mentioned anywhere in any of the police reports anyway. Back to her autopsy, so she had been she was taken into the morgue. By

the way, are all still bound up and everything. So there's a pretty in depth description in the optopsy report of the way she was all at her wounds and how she was bound up. They used electrical extension cords to tie her up in addition to the tape. There was one around her wrists and then and then the second one was heavier. It was tied to her wrist and then it went down to her ankles and tied

her ankles together. So she was she was kind of hog tied, and she was all yeah, but were not hog tied with her hands behind her hands were in front of her. Hog Tight's wrong way, but it was ankles and connected. She was well, yeah, And and of course we've already talked about the gag which was quote embedded deeply in the mouth unquote quoting to the autop scene. There was evidence around her head and face of a lot of blunt force trauma, which is of course the hammer.

This was done with a hammer, which is found its crime scene. There are lots of lacerations also stab wounds in the chest and abdomen and one in the neck. So the cause of death was listed for her blunt force trauma and stabbing. So in other words, it's not quite clear she died of brain injuries first or being stabbed in the chest. And you know, so so both you know, they just flipped the coin. Dana Wingate, on the other hand, he'd been beaten about the head, but

he was not stabbed at all. He was strangled to death. His legs were also bound with his electrical cord, but his wrists were bound with tape only, which indicates that I guess they run out of extension cords. I think. So. Yeah, head and face showed blunt force trauma, but again not stabbed. And and it appears that he was he was He might have been killed by the blows to the head, but they, whoever it was, laid him on his back

and strangle him for good measure. So before we get onto the next one, I know we've talked about it a couple of times. Now in this description as the medical tape, there was a lot of medical tape used to bind these people enough that it was more than one role. And they weren't the same kind. Yeah, and they were different widths. They had a good supply of it. Yeah,

that's that's the weird thing is I can understand. I mean, we've all got medical tape in the medicine cabinet, the little silly spool that you get when you buy gauze or whatever. But this was a lot of medical tape. When you think a couple of loops around ankles and then wrists and through multiple people. I don't understand why there was so much medical tape. That's something I don't

I haven't figured out either, somebody. I mean, it's you know that probably what they should have done was searched every house and gone to everybody's medical medical supplies and whoever is missing all their tape, Hey, you know, you're the killer. Joe always has a really simple explanation, Well, all you have to do is do this, and then hey,

they're the killer. Yeah. Yeah. It appears that most, if not all, the weapons and equipment were found on scene, like for example, the you know, the hammer I believe was found there, and then the state knife was easily found in the kitchen. Obviously, if you're going to tie people up and you're planet ahead and you're bringing your supplies, you're gonna bring rope and electrical cords. So that was

medical tape. Yeah, the medical tape is something that the killer might have brought with, might been there, like I have a first aid kit in my car. Yeah, true. Yeah. Well, and the thing about the medical tape is, I mean we we started to talk about this earlier, is that the medical tape there was no blood underneath it, which means these people were all taped up and then killed

and then killed. Yeah, same thing with the What's harder to tell with electrical cord, but the tape made a very clear band when removed, there was nothing under it. So they were taped up before they were killed. In fairness, you would do that. You wouldn't. Why would you tape a dead body up to stage a scene? Yeah, I guess there's people do that, people stage scenes, But I'm just saying it's it wasn't stage at all. It was, but it was weird that they taped and then tied them.

I don't know what that was about, if that was just for good measure or what it maybe if this if this person who did this, or person's it may be that medical tape was just something to keep in good supply because you actually planned on doing something like this. So and I'll see you're driving around your car and

you pick up a couple of hitchhikers. You decide, you know, you're gonna commit a little multiple murderaction tonight, and so you just reached out to the seat where you got your stash of this stuff that you use for tying people up. And maybe that wasn't well ahead. Sorry, the extension chords, it seems like they were only used to do the hot what we're calling hog tying, hog tying but whatever they like, tying from the arms to the legs to the wrist. Right, Well, that was one John

wasn't tied like that too. The boys were tied together. They were, yeah, they had they had they had tape around their wrists and but and they also and they were they had tape around their their legs too. And then they had one long extension cord was tied around Dana's legs and then it went over to the other

half of it was used to tie John. And the thing about that is that when I kept reading, when I kept reading the description, I thought that they were found feet to feed, but no, they were laying parallel to each other. It was just a long enough extension. Okay, that's yeah, that's weird to me. I was going to say, it would make sense that you would have to improvise or use an extension cord if you were going to try and type a length like that, because you couldn't

use tape necessarily. But I don't know why, I've never seen anything about this. But I also wonder if again, okay, somebody used what they found on site electrical cords. Sue had five kids that lived in a rural area. Kids screw around and they get hurt, so I wonder if that was something she had in her medical kits, so to speak. And again, it was just a something of convenience, a couple of roles. Maybe you know, you get one and you lose it, you misplace it, you gotta go

get another one because and then find the first one. Yeah, that's and also there would there would be a plentiful supply of electric of extension chords in this place because it's an old cabin, there's probably no more than one electrical outlet per room, so there's gonna be lots of extension cords. Yeah, no, there was. Well, one of the extension chords was from Sue and Tina's room, one was from the living room. So yeah, they pulled them from

multiple rooms. Yeah. Quickly about John Sharp, there's not much more to be said about him, is off tops. He indicated again that he was killed by the severing of his crodd ory artery, but he again had a lot of blunt force trauma. The really vicious crime, I mean bashing somebody in the head in the face with a hammer and then stabbing him with a knife. Yeah, pretty appalling crime. Okay, the wall, Oh yeah, one of the things, the walls have been apparently stabbed. Somebody had like stabbed

the walls. Yeah, it's um. When you were a kid, did you ever try to throw a knife into a tree. Oh yeah, it's it seemed like that, like there was just gazillions of little stab martin several walls, as if somebody was trying to throw a knife into a wall and get it to stick. That odd, but that gives it does make you wonder if perhaps they were looking for something like they were looking for a false compartment behind the wall. That's true. Oh yeah, oh that Yeah,

you're using it as kind of a sound sounding board. Yeah. One theory that has been has been put forth. This is apparently what somebody somewhere in the town. So there's a lot of statements that are out there in the record is being made by whom to whom the record is not always clear. It's a little town full of tons and tons of rumors. Yeah, lots of One rumor was that it was a drug deal gone bad and then a couple of people were just in the wrong

place at the wrong time. Presumably that's John and Dana, and so yeah, that's true. Yeah, I mean, I I don't agree with the drug deal gone bad. But is that in your I'm assuming that's in the theory section or should we talk about that? Uh, now we can talk about it now. It's not really in my in the theory section, because the thing about it is is

there's no evidence. Like one of the suspects, there was some some talk, some evidence that he actually sold the hash and then supplemented his income making selling hash, and but there's no evidence of the kind of high value drug smuggling in the town that would that would actually motivate you to immerse somebody. Well, coke moved through that town evidently at that time. Ye, cocaine was a trade, but in quantities sufficient to cause somebody to get murdered.

And the thing is, Sue was clean. There was no drugs inner system when they did the autopsy. She didn't drink, she didn't do drugs, as far as I could tell I. I had a hard time tracking down her background. Maybe you found better information than I did, But from everything that I found, she was a straight arrow. Yeah, I think so. I don't know why she would have been involved in anything like that. That doesn't make any sense

in fairness, though straight arrows make the best dealers, that's true. Well, but she also and maybe this is in your theory section, she had a couple of skiezy boyfriends. Yeah, and that's not Yeah, it's not that there's a section either. But but you're right. I mean, actually a straight arrow would would, if nothing else, make for a good courier, good you know,

or a good place to stash your stuff. That's that's why I was so good in the drug trade, I mean would make Yeah, do you want to talk about the skull before we move on the soft tissue bit soft tissue? Yeah, I feel like that's really interesting and compelling. Yeah, well we should talk about that. Yeah, back to Tina's skull um. It was found three years almost three years today.

It was like three years and ten days I think three years in eleven days after afterwards, and it wasn't particularly weathered, which indicated it hadn't been in that spot probably for the whole three years. And it actually still had some soft tissue in it. It did. Yeah, I still had some some some brain matter in there and stuff, which would indicate because if it had been if it's three years, the bugs and everything would have cleaned that out.

So if it's been outdoors even for three years in that area, now that that conflicts with the stuff that I've seen from the corner corner who examined it, because he said it was clean. There was no but there was no organic material left on it. It was stained on one side from the dirt but slightly bleached on the other, meaning it sat in the same spot that wasn't a sunny spot but did get sun for at least a couple of years. Okay, so that's I was.

That was then. Unfortunately I apologize to our listeners. Well, no, I don't. I mean, that's what he said, but I don't know if his recollection is right because it was an interview done with him years later. But but this is the hard part is that these always there's so many interpretations. Yea, it is easy. Yeah, I'm not sure exactly why her body he was put there. I don't think she was murdered immediately, but you know I don't either. Yeah,

it's it's horrified to think about. But I think she might have lived for quite a while after you can get napped. Oh yeah, I don't agree with how. I think she lived a day or two, but have just been a day or two. It could have been longer. I don't know. Well, we'll talk about that a little bit later. But yeah, A list a few suspects here. Martin Ray Smart, also known as Marty Smart. Marty Smart. I'm sorry, I've never I never really paid attention to

the fact that it's Marty Smart. Yeah, Marty, it makes you want to say, mighty smart. Well, it makes me think of that what was that silly Detective Show in the sixties. Get that's all I was gonna say. It reminds me of ax Man, right what a bit like Joe Wordan, go Ward Snowart and Robert and Bobbert's Smartest and a man. Yeah, we've watched it. It's fine, Okay, So Marty Smart, Mrighty Smart. Uh. Yeah. I lived in

Cabin twenty six. He was not a model citizen. Supposedly, Rumors rumored in the seventies he was living in Phoenix at that time and tried to murder his brother and expressed the desire to blow up his parents house. Yeah, apparently he went off to look for explosives but changed his mind. So good, that's lucky for the parents. Huh he uh. Maryland said that at some point in nineteen Sorry, who's Maryland? Oh? Yeah, that was his wife, Marylyn. I'm

sorry didn't mention that. Yeah, he married Maryland I think in seventy nine, Maryland being Justin's mom. Yeah, Justin's mom, Justin's was it Justin Smart? Was his name Justin Easton? I think he kept Stad's name. Yeah, alright, sorry, just yeah,

because that was one of my hard parts. But this is names flip all over the place, and so, yeah, they're not always consistent or correct on the websites invite and and like, all these people in this town are named, and this person was drove over to his place and saw him do that, and there's all these different names, and it's just it's hard to keep tracking the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, but I could make info graphics about just about every one of these stories. Yeah, I'm not going to, though,

it's not worth the effort. But Mary, but Maryland said that he actually tried to run run her and the kids over in nine eight with a car. Yeah. I had apparently had a real anger problem. Happy marriage, Yeah, I know, I know. He was Marty smart, as was the guy that was selling hash. One person, one person in town reports reportedly said he saw a brick of hash that looked like a wait, about a pound in Marty's house. Oh yeah, that's a lot of hash that

last me a week or two. And yeah, in March nine one, he went to the Reno Veterans Administration Hospital to check into the psych ward because he was apparently having some psych problems. That evidently was at the request of his wife. Yeah, she coerced him or of his to talk him in to go in and get and checked in for help because he had relationship issues. Yeah you management. Yeah, that's one of the things he discussed with the therapist. He's having marriage problems. Uh, she was

threatening to divorce him. And he had anger problems. Oh yeah. There Another indication he had anger problems is at one point he threatened to break Johnny Sharp's hands, the ten year old Johnny Sharp, the fifteen year old Sharp. Yeah that's not done much better really, Yeah. Yeah, his wife said Maryland said that he didn't like teenagers period. He thought they were all punks, and he really didn't like yeah, all of them. Yeah, and didn't like women particularly either.

I thought they were all slots and horrors. So yeah, he had serious issues. Yeah. Yeah. He later claimed to a therapist that he thought he had PTSD from his time in Vietnam. It turns out he had really soft duty in Vietnam. He was he was a cook, and he was he was far far away from the war zone, and so he probably had If you want to avoid getting shot, the best possible place to be in Vietnam, you're with the U. S. Military. His therapist, this therapist

really shot that down. Yeah, rightfully. So I can I give you my impression of Marty or Martin depending on which thing you read. I've known a lot of guys like him. You come from a because they come from a small town where a bunch of guys went to Vietnam and they came back and it's a rural community and they didn't get the help they needed. And they have a lot of macho bravado about them because that's

their defense mechanism. And some and they'd says I'm gonna beat the crap out of you or I'm gonna kill you, and some of it was just a lot of it was talk from a lot of it, but there were somewhere you went, oh, wait, that guy is actually kind of serious in a little scary and aren't smart. He he strikes me is a little leaning towards the serious

scary side than the full of hot air side. Yeah. Possibly, he did that have a history of violence well, and the things that he said those are the very indicative of things that I've heard before. And it just but the things that he's done that his actions or why, I'm like, yeah, part of that wasn't an actually an act he was had a few scrooge loops. Yeah, that

sounds like. But yeah, this thing about small towns is that the nutcases and the psychos, you really can't avoid running into him if you live in a big city. They're kind of self seggregating that they're living off in the port, in the port part of town, and you hopefully or not, and then well, it's it's also terrible because the cycle for them is so much smaller and tighter.

Think about it. You live in a metro area and you've got some issues, and you run into somebody and they anger you, and you think about it, but you don't see that person for six months, so by the time you see them, all that pent up whatever, it

is just kind of dissipated. Whereas if you run into somebody and you live in a small town and they've done something to anger you, and it's starting to cycle up, and then you see them three days later, cycles up more, four days later, two days later, it's like just these these these these situations or pressure cookers for a personality like that. Yeah, small towns aren't all just not all milk and honey, not rainbows and small towns. Interestingly enough,

they vary in their culture. Like I grew up, I spent most of my young Ringer gears in a small town. And uh, I think it's fair to say there was another town about seven miles away that culturally was significantly different from ours. And and uh, it really is true. They're not It's not all Mayberry or anything like some of them are. Some of them are really nice places, full of nice people, you know, and some of them are full jerks. Yeah, people with problems. Yeah. Can we

start talking about the mystery here? Yeah? No, I'm totally off here. Yeah, we we really kind of delve into that a little bit too much. Also, I can't commiserate. So yeah, that's that's true. Okay, So back to the vetting. So he's in the pside ward. His his claim for ps PTSD has been kind of rebooked. Yeah, And eventually he got he checked out and went back to Ketty and he brought a friend that he had met in the VA hospital, another guy with metal metal issues. Good idea. Yeah,

I'll talk about this guy a little bit later. Marty. We're still talking about Marty being a suspect. Apparently on somebody recalled him saying on April four or the eleventh, that somebody knew it was a Saturday, but I couldn't remember specifically what date it was. Marty had told him that if he Marty didn't get things straightened out, he

might kill somebody. And was that I could never clue in was that straightened out with his wife or just straightened out in general, or do you know that's that's it's very vague. It's very vague. Yeh. Marty of course

was a suspect. I think one of the things that that one of the things that sort of got the police interested in him is that his wife the day of April twelfth, when the bodies were discovered, his wife moved out well and her son was one of the surviving boys as well, and it would explain why his

story changed. Yeah, like if he opened the door and saw his stepdad like killing a bunch of people, Yeah, you might say, yeah, I saw something, and they'd say, okay, son, what'd you see and you'd go, uh, nothing, I don't want to get a whooping nothing nothing. He might kill

me too. Nothing could have been that, although it's um you know, if if Marty was, if Marty Smart was as abusive as some people say it was towards Maryland and possibly kids also, wouldn't that be a grand opportunity to say, yeah, yeah, it was my stepdad murdering those people, and so he gets carted off, He gets carted off to prison, and you can go find a better step dad. Yeah, but I guess there's that fear, there's the irrational fear.

Yeah that twelve, Yeah, that's yeah. Among us as adults, that's a very easy logical thing to say, Hey, I can get rid of this jerk. But as a kid, you don't know, because you know, you just don't have the life experience and your emotions are all erratic and weird. That's an easy way to think. But that's not the way that the kids at that age thing. Probably not. But and I have no idea if he had justin witnessed anything or not. I don't think he did. I don't know. I kind of doubt it, but yeah, we

talked about it. Marty, of course was a suspect again he left two doors down history of violence. He was known to not like Sue because he believed that Sue was trying was trying to persuade Maryland to leave him. She probably was, because yeah, he was a bit of a jerk. So yeah, and he uh, he at one point in his sessions with the psychotherapist did talk about this and talk about this quote unquote bitch who was trying to turn his wife against him, and that undoubtedly

that was probably Sue. He had a motive, not not really much of a motive. I don't I don't think that's enough of a motive for any rational person to murder four people. He may not have been rational, doesn't have to be rational. Yeah, So he was questioned and everything, and he took a polygraph test which he passed. But then a month after the murders, this didn't come to light until years later. Yeah, and for for a reason.

But the month after the murders, he talked to his therapist to get it to the v A and he said that he had killed Sue Sharp and he said he did he did it because Sue was trying to talk Maryland into leaving him. Wait, when when did he talk to the therapist. That would have been in nine one. Oh, I thought it was later on than that. Now it was in and then uh, unless, unless of course the source where I got this again confused about the timeline. There are so many timelines out there and so many,

so many different statements by various people. The therapist, of course couldn't reveal this. They're there, they can't. But after Marty died, he died in the year two thousand, the therapists apparently waited ten years. And maybe that's no. I think the therapist did contact the police, and because they're required by law too to give that information. You know, client confidentiality only goes so far. Murder doesn't cover murder.

But the cops got the information and then did nothing with it, So that was a little bit of incompetence there or otherwise, who knows. Apparently the therapist contacted them again some years later after Marty died and brought the issue up again, and they reopened the investigation, or at least took a look at it. But again the school case. By this time, it's two thousand and ten. I think when that when that when he took it up with them again. Well, and he was already dead at that point, Yeah,

he was dead ten years. Uh. And interestingly, though he Marty said nothing about the other murders. He didn't say anything about that. He just said he killed Sue. Yeah, interesting. Yeah,

very that doesn't make sense. It really doesn't, because that's what that would mean is he goes over there and he kills Sue and then and leaves her corpse on the Lisa corpse on the on the couch with a blanket over it, and then maybe the other two come the two boys come home with the psycho, the psycho killer, who's giving them a ride, and then he and then the psycho killer murders them. This is the weirdest bad

look scenario. Would that be an amazing coincidence? Alternately, Alternately, she, I mean, she doesn't seem the type, but she, for whatever reason, kills the boys and then herself to death. Then Marty comes over for whatever reason, and because he's rolled up or whatever, Well he was drunk that night, right, so it's blames her blood on her feet, right, And then he sees what happened and was already angry at her and kills her in a similar manner and ties

her up and leaves her on the couch. And I don't know what happens to Tina, she even less, I know, I'm sorry. I mean, she's hit sacking in Highway seventy and she gets picked up by Mr Secho Killer. There you go. No, what about so what about the friend? The friend? Oh yeah, let's talk about her friends, his friend or his friend. I mean, yeah, yeah, Marty's friend. And he brought back from the second ward. Uh. This

guy's name full name was Severing, John Balbadee. Didn't we have somebody who was named Severing in a case before? Wasn't it in the toy and be tiles se? Yeah? Okay, that name really sounds familiars. Yeah, I can't believe that the first time you'd ever heard Severneah. Oh yeah, I had a friend growing up name Severn. So name for me? Sorry, I was like, well, I thought that was all in the name. Rest now Bobade uh one by the nickname

of bowl. Alright, that's what I said, Boada, it's balbade So I'm still trying to learn how to pronounce that name babade. But Bo was staying with the Smart. He came back from Reno Via and stayed with the Smart, sleeping on the couch. Reportedly, he liked to get up at night and wander around outside. It's a little lanky, but maybe he had insomnia. Yeah. He was also in psychiatric therapy, just like Marty was met Sue Sharp on April eighth, three days before the murders, and reportedly the

next day said he'd like to get to know we're better. Yeah. She was a pretty lady and she was probably nice to him, Yeah, could have been. And then probably the dating prospects in that town were not that huge. Yeah. On the night of April eleven, Marty Beau and Maryland got dressed up and then they were they put on suits and all kinds of nice clothes and stuff, and they went to the back door bar and ketty, which was they walked to. Yeah, they walked to it. It's

a tiny little town. Yeah. And that reportedly they left about nine thirty and they stopped. According to some accounts, they stopped by Sue Sharp's house to ask if she wanted to tag along, and she said she wasn't interested. That are you look at them? And how many kids I have here? Yeah, and they were all like that

just against the bad you know, it was the eighties. Yeah, Yeah, And uh so she had four kids there and two more that were out hitchacking or something or still in Quincy at the time, so she just didn't want to go, and apparently she didn't drink anyway, so you know what you wanted, but makes sense to turn down the offer. Yeah. Uh, So they hung out at the back door bar and then about twelve thirty or so that they changed the

music in the bar. Yeah, they changed the type of music they were playing in Bow got really angry about it because he liked country and they were playing rock and roll. Uh, that's what gets me riled up every time. Yeah, I'm ready, I'm ready to kill people over stuff like that. They went back to Cabin twenty six and Marylyn went to bed. At this point, Marty wanted to go back to the bar, but Bo was still really furious about

the music change. They even called the bar. Marty caught the car with the bar and complained about it to the bar attender. And all sense tells you the size of the town when you can call the bar and complain about the music, and and and Bo was like, Marty wants to go, but Bo was so mad he just has to calm down for a while. So really yeah, yeah, But eventually they did go back to the bar, then return at some unknown time because Marilyn was asleep when she woke up, Marty was in bed with her and

but was asleep in the couch. Who knows what they were up to or wet when they came back. Well, they did go to the bar. Evidently they were there at last call. Yeah, Marty was wearing a green suit for for heading the bar, but the next day the suit was gone, and Marilynd said she never saw it again, which is suspicious. But on the other hand, she moved out of that place on April twelve, So so I woke up the morning of April that the green suit

was not there. I never saw it again. Well, yeah, she but when she moved out, she said she was afraid of what Marty might do to her and the kids. But again, that doesn't necessarily indicate that Marty was a murderer, and she was afraid of getting murdered, And she just might have realized I'm in a not good situation and oh my god, my neighbor just got brutally murdered. I

should probably make a life change. Yeah, I know, I know, seriously, And I told you as I told you before you got justin arrived home from Cavin twenty run eight thirty am and told her that everybody was dead at the same time that day, about that same time, a guy named Jim Meeks went over to Marty Smarts house and saw that he was burning yard debris in the yard and said that he believed he saw a pair of shoes in the middle of the pile of burning debris. So, yeah,

I don't really know. I'm not sure about this because the thing about it is is my understanding of it is when they went back to the house and before they return to the bar, they changed their clothes. I mean you've read that in some accounts, right, I think I have. Yeah, there's some. Yeah, there were so many papers the one website that I think all three of us drew on pretty heavily for like the reports and the papers, because it was a plathora of information there was,

so it was actually information overloads. So it's made it kind of hard to pull details. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, so some some some say they change your clothes. Of course, on the other hand, if you're all gussie up, but we're your best clothes, you're gonna want to change. Well, if to commit a murder, yeah, no, I mean if you you know, you came home, So this is what

happens for me. I don't know about you guys, but you get all dressed up and you go out and you're like, yeah, this is fun, and you go home and you're like, I wish I was wearing jeans right now. Yeah, jeans and you know, sweatshirt on and oh let's yeah, sure, let's go back out to the bar. Yeah, okay, yeah, no problem. That happened to me every time I wear

my best dress. I know, you know, but no, I I can see that, you know, it's you're not You probably get dressed up because Maryland was like, wouldn't it be fun if we all got dressed up? And this is not a place where guys typically wear a suit. Yeah, so it seems unlikely that Marty and Beau would be like, you know, want to be really fun and if we

put on our suits. Yeah, I could just see a guy in a collared shirt, in a suit or in a tie for a couple of hours, having a couple of drinks, and the first thing you want to do is get out of that. Absolutely. Yeah. And actually, probably Bou wanted to be all dressed up because he was probably hoping to find him a woman in the bar and have to spending a few hours in a bar. He realizes that it's his hopes of actually finding somebody in the bar were pretty much and he's super angry. Yeah,

he's super angry. So why I keep wearing the suit, you know, when there's no women in the bar anyway, So they probably changed. Don't use up your good juju. No, absolutely not. Supposedly, Maryland told Jim Meeks later in that day, that's April twelve, that she's seen a bloody hammer in the basement of Cabin twenty six. Wasn't the hammer found at the scene. Yeah it was. It's clearly visible in one of the crime scene photographs. Ye Oh no, it

sounds like a disgruntled next wife. Although I guess, well, I don't. I gotta tell you, I I have never seen that many cabins in the woods that have basements, actually, so that's that kind of makes me wonder right there. Yeah, well, I guess my argument pro her having seen that is it's I don't know that you would be able to

tell if it was only one hammer. It could have been more than one hammer too, you know, if it were two guys, two guys to hammers to hammers well didn't also tell the cops, oh, by the way, my hammer went missing. Yeah, they made he made a lot of interesting statements. There was one they called in the Department of Justice and the DJ investigators had a little interview with him, and he made a couple of other

sort of semi incriminating stage. Yeah, he's said some weird stuff. Yeah. Yeah, Like it was like like and talking about his stepson's possibly observing the crime, he said something in the order of it's possible, that it's possible, and I just didn't notice him. Well, it's just like wow, really, that's the kind of thing that they should have kind of maybe zeroed in on and kind of hammered away at. And

they really it was kind of a lackluster investigating. Yeah, there were there were so many things that were botched. There was so there was Johnny and then what was the other boy that was in No, in the no, the boys that were in the room that survived. There was Justin and also Ricky and Greg. Yeah, and I can't remember which one of him was being interviewed by the Department of Justice, but you can hear if you

listen to the tape. It's the guy saying you know, the time and the date and his name and interviewing subjects so and so, and puts the mic over to the kid to get a mic test to make sure everything's working. And then the rest of the tape is blankly the thing just shut off or just stopped recording, and they they like did the test to make sure it work, but didn't have the aptitude to go, oh,

that's funny. The little lights on it stopped moving. Oh well, we'll keep going this Actually, in fairness to them, we've actually committed the same mistake. Life was at steak. Yeah, fairness, nobody's life was at stake in not either. The lives had been already good. Joe's life was kind of at steak because I was just so done with that story. Yeah, that was that was not a great anyway back to this botched investigated investigation. Well, just another word about the hammer.

There might have been two hammers. He might have taken his bloody hammer home with them, but wouldn't have washed it off. But but there was all of the tools. Okay, so it was a hammer and a knife, and a steak knife and and a butcher knife, and they had all been wiped down at the scene of the crime. They weren't covered in gads of blood. Okay, Well, if you took the time to wipe down the tools of the murder and leave them at the murder scene, why

in the hell would you take a bloody one home? No? No, no, And you want to if you possibly can, you want to leave the murder weapons the scene. Yeah, Yeah, that that that that whole There was a bloody hammer in the basement. Thing That doesn't jie with what was at the scene of the nonsense. And I don't know, I don't know if if Marilyn was lying, more likely Jim Meeks was lying, or maybe somebody just made this stuff up and stuck into the record at some point. Let's

talking about theories for a little bit. Yeah, God, are we not there yet? Yeah, And there's a there's a lot more if you guys want to do more research, follow some of the links. Uh, there's a lot of stuff out there. Just to make this not a five

hour episode, I've omitted lots of stuff. And also because some of its conflicting and and it's fragmentary, so and so, you know, you know, Bob C said this, and yeah, a lot of it is recounting five ten twenty thirty years later, and those are bound to conflict from statement one to statement five. A person is going to change it without intending to over time. Absolutely, the memories a tricky thing. Okay, back to our series Sue number one.

Sue was the target of the attack that she was the one who wanted to kill some people of theorist. She was bound and gagged and then forced to watch as John and Data were murdered and Tina was tied up production. So us whoever did this really hated Sue. Yeah, if this is what happened, then no doubt they explained in detail or he explained it do tell what he was going to be doing with Tina just to make her predicament that that much more horrible before murdering her.

But I don't understand why he or they didn't haul the other two children out of the back bedroom and kill them. They were strangers there. You know, you wouldn't know that those kids were back there. That's possible if you think you to have a look around, but maybe not well, but you could say, is there anybody else home? No, all my kids are sleeping at the neighbor's house. As

a preventative statement to protect your children. Yeah, yeah, I mean I but you know, if Sue was a target of the attack, the only person intended seemed to have a grudge against her was Marty, right, Marty Smart, who would have known how many kids she had, who would have known that his stepson is in the other room. He would have known that. This is one of the reasons I have strong doubts. Even though everybody else thinks Marty Smart did this, I have strong doubts that he did.

I mean, I really don't, because I really do think I have to have doubts. Well, just because he had a criminal history and a history of violence, but never anything this savage, never anything that savage, and he would have done it. If he wanted to kill Sue, he would have found a way to maybe have doctor tick her out in the woods and kill her out there. He wouldn't do it with the steps on in the

next room. Do you think, m again, this assumes I mean, this assumes he was, like you know, it assumes a lot of that. But it also you know, just because Sue was the target, I guess Sue was the target of the attack, assumes that somebody knew who she was, Right, Okay, all right, never mind, you say it assumes that somebody that that person knows Sue, but she intended target that

they have to know who she is. Yeah, well that's there's another possibility and somebody that didn't know Sue, but it was just a psychopathic jerk, So we'll get to that. That's that's you know, somebody somebody gave the boys a ride home and saw Sue and was like, oh yeah, I would like some of that, thank you. And then or more likely, I think saw Tina and hey, I want some of that. I know, I know it's terrible, but she was the one that was abducted. Remember, no,

I don't either. But let's get on to another theater theory, which is Tina was the reason for the attack and everybody else was collateral damage. So some people have said that Bo really liked young girls. So say, if it was Bo, you know, he goes over there and well, he's got it. He's got to deal with the mother, kill her, and then abducted the girl, and then the other two show up. That the two boys show up, and so he's got to whack them. Walk in on, they walk in on. He's got to whack them too.

I have you also heard about the allegations of the involvement between Marty and Tina. Yeah, well I heard something about that was possibly some sort of a relationship there, but there there. I have seen stuff that speculates that Tina was pregnant. She's at it's possible, It's possible, or there was fear that she was pregnant by Marty and that he, thinking that he was going to protect his world what he had and not let that get out and destroy it, went after her, and of course that

meant Sue was the collateral damage. And before he could abscond with her and do whatever he intended to do with her to erase that evidence, the other two boys arrived. I have a really hard time with that, except that, I mean, initially you think, well, if this guy was having doing something sexual in nature with this girl, she would have told somebody, except that unfortunately, it's not the first time she had been molested by an adult, so she may have just never said this. Lots of speculation.

Lots of kids get molested and don't say anything. Yeah, I mean, that's that's Unfortunately, what the pedophiles count on is that they're too scared to say anything. But this is speculation. I can't say that it's true. I've seen it a little bit jibes, but a lot of it doesn't. Yeah, I've never seen any strong evidence that indicates to me that that's true. But the other thing about it is is that if he needed to get rid of Tina, and obviously get rid of the body because La Tops,

it would have revealed that she was pregnant. Right, So if you need to do that, there are better ways to do it than killing a bunch of people. He could have easily, You could have easily just set up a meeting with her, especially if he was sleeping with her. Yeah, he could have just like you know, Center called her and said, hey, let's get together, and then then just take her out in the woods and murder her and bury her body. I'd like to introduce Exhibit one. Alcohol

get drunk, You make dumb decisions. People make a lot of dumb decisions when they're I'm just gonna fix this now, and then they don't. I'm not I'm not accusing anything, but seeing I mean, we've all seen that. Again. I don't I don't buy this one. But if we're going to run down that avenue. I can see how it could have played out bad, whereas in his head was very simple, walk in, knockout suit, take take Tina, and

get out, and instead it turns into a blood bath. Yeah, well, I gotta say he lacked out because usually when people commit really stupid off the cuff crimes like that, especially multiple murders, they almost always get caught. Yeah that's what a few they got away with it? If that's what? If that's I'm still not sure that Marty did this at all. Next, Next there are the three of the three young boys in the bedroom. Did it? But yeah, somebody actually actually got this one off of Redhead somebody

sometimes I love Reddit. Uh well, actually they got to put it out there, said you know this this this kind of makes sense. But but really, come on, it doesn't make sense that they were too young, they had no move. Well I guess, okay, so like young kids do dump things sometimes thinking they're playing right, they think it's like fun. But in reality, now that was the time when I was a kid, We're having a sleepover and we got hammers and killed a family. Well, we

didn't mean to mean he was an accident. No. I think the thing is that if you think that's fun at ages five through twelve, you're probably going to exhibit some of those tendencies later in life too. It sounds like these boys didn't ever do they would all be in prison for sure or hopefully. I mean, that's that's the beginning of you know, psychotic behavior. And you would think that there would have been a lot of missing cats and dogs and stuff like that. This this is

the build up stage, not the beginning. Tested out not to kill your first human being. Yeah. So anyway, I thought it was a fun theory, so I thought i'd put it in there. Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, a little boy with murdering people another theory? Um funny games? Yeah, another serious Charles Ing and Leonard Lake. Uh these have you heard of these guys? Yeah, vicious, a couple of

vicious serial killers. They had. Leonard Lake had a place in uh near not in but near Willseyville, California, which is about a hundred miles south of Ketty. And he had this kind of was kind of a fairly remote cabin and he had built himself a dungeon next to the cabin that he and then yeah, and build dungeons. Yeah, I never want to know. Yeah, they would. What these guys would do is they would abduct like a family

or a group of people. They would usually kill them in and the babies fast, you know, because they didn't they need them. But they keep the women around and then rape them and torture them horribly, and that eventually murdered them too. This is like, what's that movie Hostile? I don't watch movies like that. I don't either, That's why I'm asking. This makes me think of like the

crap I see in the previews of movies like that. Yeah, anyway, but as far as it being the pair of them, but yeah, if you if you do a little googling on these two, yeah they had they had a real crime spree there. They killed a bunch of people pretty horribly too. But you gotta rule Charles hang out because as far as I was able to find, he was

in prison until night two. That's just like a correction has gone wrong situation that Yeah, you know, I mean, if somebody's already been in jail and then gets released and goes on a rape, torture, murder spree for a couple of years, I feel like something failed there. Well, he was in he was in a military prison, so they weren't really trying to rehabilitate him. Yeah. Yeah, But he got out of prison in nineteen eighty two. He's

been in contact with Leonard Lake already. They already knew each other, and Lay invited him to come up there and live at his cabin, and you know, they just to hang out up there and just occasionally, you know, go out and find some innocent people to abduct and murder horribly like what I'm saying, In could not have been involved. And by the way, at this point he was Leonard Lake, who is the guy I'm putting forth as a suspect, A possible, remotely possible suspect, was not

yet Inisconsin's a little remote cabin. It's possible. I'm not saying he lived in Kitty, by the way, he didn't, but who knows. Maybe he was driving through Highway seventies spots a couple of teenage boys hitchhiking, picks them up, takes them back. Because the murders that he and Charles Inn committed together were incredibly vicious, and let's let's face it,

the Kiddy murders were also incredibly vicious. I have no evidence, no proof whatsoever that it was actually him, but it makes sense because Tina was the one that was abducted. Now he's he's he's mobile, he doesn't have a dungeon or anything like that. He can only take one person with him. You take the smallest, Yeah, you take the smallest, You take the smallest one. So yeah, the weakest of the bunch. Yeah, yeah, take her. And of course he

doesn't have his dungeons, so he can't. He's so he's got to just take her somewhere and you know, Tork tore her and then murder her and leave her the other ones he killed on the spot. And then that's what they would do again. They would they would kill the people that they weren't interested in raping first. Yeah. I feel I feel like and Lake are the equivalent of Devon. Last week, when we talked about the McCann case, there was the random guy that lived in Spain that

was listed as a suspect in Germany. Can't pronounce yes because well, this is somebody who years later we know is a not Tory is bad person that was in the same general area exactly. That's that's my same feeling about this. There's president for it, though. I mean, oftentimes you find after you know a serial killer has been caught, you find, oh, well, they also lived in this area where these murders that are kind of similar or not totally similar, happened a couple of years before. It's that

testing the water's face. Yeah, I'm not saying it's it's not, but that's that's my initial impression. Yeah, I think it's definitely something. I have really no evidence for it, but it just seems to me that, you know, I would think Leonard Lake is as strong as suspect as Marty Smart because Mrty Smart, for you, even though he was kind of screwed up and had an anger problem, he you know, as far as I can tell, he didn't show the kind of viciousness that it would have taken.

All you have to do is go look at the crime scene photos to kind of understand what we're talking. Vicious is the exact actually the word, yes, because it's not to make a joke, but it was overkill. Yeah, it was. It was absolute. The over the top was what was going on. It was it was just it wasn't just getting the job done. It was sadistic. Sadistic, But that's one of the things. It's a weird thing in favor of Martin not being responsible. Is that on in the tapes with him from the cops, he's like,

I I don't understand how somebody could do that. If I had somebody to kill, I'd get in, I'd get it done, and i'd get out. I wouldn't do all this other stuff, which, okay, well, maybe that's you know, him leading the path to defend himself, to lead them off. But at the same time he doesn't sound he sounds like he just saying, like, dude, that was so weird. Why would you do that in a normal conversational tone

that pass into it? Yeah, exactly, exactly. The and you know, remember only one was gagged, so it was it was Sue Sharp that was gagged. The boys were the boys. The boys were knocked out. Yeah, the boys got cocked out pretty fast, it did. Yeah. But yeah, it looked like Sue was alive for a while, out of conscious. And again it's quite possible if she had to witness the murders of those two boys. Well, and there was a lot of blood on the bottom of her feet,

So yeah, I mean, you know, somebody's blood. The one thing, thankfully that I was really surprised about was there was no sexual misconduct in this whole thing. Well like thankfully rape never came into this as far as as far as far as they found out in any of it. For the victims that were left in the cabin that was not there, and I was that's one of the that's the weird thing. Okay, Well, if the boys are fine,

Sue's fine, and Tina's taken, it doesn't make sense. You would think that somebody that was on a let's kill him and have a little set choll funds free wouldn't

have cared. But that's that's very general, very vague. I understand that before anybody lights up and as a heyday and sends me a Wikipedia article about weird perversions, I know that that's not exactly right, but it just seems like you would have seen more indications of something like that in the whole thing, which is I mean, personally, I hope that you know they took Tino away and then did her in quietly, but I don't know, I don't understand why they would have done that. I'm saying

what I would like to hear. That's that's what I would like to believe too. But yeah, I can't conceivably think of a reason why. But anyway, do you guys have any more theories? Thankfully? No, yeah, exactly case. I'm sorry. Yeah, I know, I know it's but it was time for us to do a hideous it's been a while, it was. Yeah, okay, I don't think we're gonna be able to solve this one, unfortunately,

unless we go down there with our magnifying glasses. I think that it's yeah, cabin did the cabalist demo, Yeah, something like that. They were condemned and they finally bulldozed him. Yeah, and I don't think they were probably people lining up to go live in that cabin anyway. I think there was one family did move in afterwards, and actually maybe they didn't know, but you know, I mean, you've seen the crime scene photographs the cabin. The cabin was an armpit.

It was it was. I would have to be pretty damn poor before I would live in that place. Take your college dorm room and put wood paneling and ugly seventies carpet in it, and then twenty years of dirt and we're talking not wood paneling, the nice stuff with the stuff that's made out of kind of press board, with the lambing of stuff that the ugly, nasty stuff. Yeah yeah, I know the stuff you find in nineteen fifties trailers. Yeah, the kind I grew up in. Yeah, yeah,

I know that. Yeah. The place was dump so glad I didn't have to live there. And I'm glad I didn't live there because i'd be dead, so thank god. Alright, son, No, nope, nope, out there is Okay. Well, I think that's it for this week, so sorry, apologize. I know we usually solve things, but not this week. Sorry. Yeah. I think according to our drinking game, that means that you have to like finish like five beers or something something. I'm sorry about that. Hung over. Yeah no, well I gotta do it. I

want to get people drink. All right, So let me give you some some very very important information. First of all, you want to find our website. You'll find links about this story as well as the story itself to be downloaded. That's thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can leave comments, uh, and of course listen to episodes. Of course, you can also find us on iTunes, which is probably where you're finding us. So remember, subscribe, give us a review, give

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own shirts. No, I know it's zazz Actually. Zazzle wrote us an email just yesterday saying they're running out of stock. Better buy your T shirts and mugson. Yeah. I better be the same. Yeah. Alright, Well that's it for this week. Another mystery down. You guys have any remaining thoughts. I really don't want to have to walk to my car right now. Let's let's I'll huddle in the bathroom. Yeah, lock the door. Well, there's plenty of water. We'll take

some cans of food. It'll be safe. Alright, Bye, guys, All right, so long for this week. Bye. Why are you giving me that weird look?