Thinking Sideways: Karin Waldegrave

But did you know that there's a lot of really strange little things like the straw hat riots of the nineteen hundreds, or the fact that Elvis Presley unsuccessfully attempted to get a badge from the Federal Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs because he was taking a bunch, they

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till Crime Car. How have you not bought your tickets yet? Hurry up. Go to crime con dot com use the offer code sideways twenty to get off your tickets, and we're gonna be there. You should be there. We'll see you in a couple of weeks. Thinking Sideways, I'll broke the look at that I don't know stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast I Am Devin this week joined by Joe and Steve. Hey. Surprise, surprise,

I get a sound effect. Yeah, we're gonna talk about and internet mystery, kind of about Facebook, Mr, kind of. It's just a weird it's a weird story. Um. And it is the story of Karen Catherine Waldegrave. And this episode was suggested by James and Ashley in January of twenty fifteen, only two plus years ago. Thanks guys, I hope you're still alive. Yeah, so you're trying to figure out how to explain this is the preface, because this is this is it's tough. It's cookie. It's cookie is

a good word. Kind of creepy too. So we're gonna talk about a woman named Karen Catherine Waldegrave, which is an Internet mystery. You can hear the question marks and my voice. I'm not imitating Steve, but she's not sure about the nature of reality is what she's trying to convey. If you're going to imitate me, your voice has to be much lower than its currently, just so you know, not that much lower anyway, it is too Basically karen Facebook page maybe is the basis of this mystery here, Okay,

so here's the deal. In April two, a Facebook profile named Karen Catherine Waldegrave von berg Habsburg in parentheses. You know how you can put like your maiden name in yea, so the Vaughan Burg Hapsburg Habsburg it was in parentheses. So this this Facebook profile appeared in April. Posts by this user were frequent and prolific. I would say, so, and I'm really sorry. I know that we do have some listeners who feel like they really need that, like

and here's the mystery part of the intro. But I can't. I can't, I literally can't with the written down properly. This is a massive rabbit hole. Yeah, it's a huge rabbit The mystery is is that nobody knows who she was, where she went, or even if she existed. To begin with and what was she doing and what the Yeah,

so the mystery is the the enigma of Karen Catherine Waldegrave. So, and I'm going to go ahead and again do another preface here and say that this is, as Steve said, a huge, massive rabbit hole, to the point where I asked one of our experts to help me with like one tiny little aspect, and she kept being like, but what about this and what about this? And I was like, really, I just need help on this one thing, and and like over the span of three days, she finally was like,

so I'm getting too distracted. I can't help you with that. So where we are literally going to do the like high level scratch the surface of this case we never do that we could have always out of. I mean, we probably could do like a four part series on this story. There's so much stuff to just kind of dig into. We could read every single one of our posts word for word. That would actually probably be like a year's worth of podcast. I was about to say

a second podcast. If I highly suggest that you look into this case, if if you are at all interested in at all. According to Karen's profile, Karen Catherine Waldgrave Bonberg Habsburg Habsburg Rights was born in London or Estonia, according to one Internet sleuth who provided a date and everything, and Karen studied at the University of Toronto in Canada and earned a PhD during her time there. According to

her profile, she's very well traveled. She speaks um a ton of different languages, including French, Estonian, Latvian, English, Russian, Gaelic, German and Latin though by the way, yeah and Canadian a um, even though I will say I took Latin in high school. In my Latin teacher always said there's no such thing as being fluent in Latin exactly. But you know what I love about Facebook profiles, They are so easy to just lie on like this is, this

is this is anisingly huge list. It is, but she does use most of those languages at some point, though I know Google translates a thing, but I'm just saying, at faith value, this is a very well educated woman. In n she apparently married a man named Peter Lepeck and then they divorced it about ten years later in two thousand two. Peter spelled with two ease three ees. Sorry, he's a real person with real life, so please don't

bother him. He has a lot of public social media stuff. Yeah, if you like, you know, if you decided to go down the rabbit hole, just don't. Don't bother the guy with emails or don't do anything. Just don't. He probably just doesn't care. Yeah. He has been the CEO of a company called Technograph since And by the way, Karen Catherine Waldgrave was a matrimonial investor in in that very same company. Yeah. I thought she was like the VP

of something. Yeah, I like. But the way she puts it in her in her was a curriculum vita whatever you call it, yeah, r CV. Yeah, that which she puts a matrimony investor, you know that technograph, which means she married a dude that owned the company. She had interesting way of referring to a lot of different things. Yea. And Technograph isn't any crazy crazy business. It's printing business. Yeah. The guy prints on everything. Yeah, but he's been the

CEO for like twenty it's an established business. Yeah, I'm not I'm not knocking it at all. I'm just saying, you know the name Technograph. If you don't know what it is, you, Oh, I wonder what that what kind of texts very high tech, does it's it's printing press. Yeah, okay, that's good. So then in two thousand three, Karen remarried to a man named Gordon Findlay or Findlay Findlay, Yeah, Findley who he? I think he's like eighty eight years old and I think she was like thirty five at

the time. Um. And there's been some speculation that she didn't actually marry him, that they just lived in the same condo complex. I heard that too, like maybe they just sort of do each other passing on the hallway and that was about it. But I don't know, there's a picture of them together, so I'm saying just passing in the hallway, part actually sitting near each other, Well there's I mean, but there's only that one picture that

exists of them. So people say, what could have been like from an h O a meeting or something like yeah, no, And this is just like the last episode. You can easily draw a whole slew of conclusions from single photographs. And although again it's kind of like, I don't know why you would lie about that, especially because he's so much older than her, But whatever. Karen has as recently as February first, two thousand fifteen a Genie account, which

is a genealogy account. Genie is you know, like like genealogy. Not On this account she uses the alias Karen Sophie kell wal Degrave von Con So sounds right, and I should I should stop here and say Karen the Facebook is k A r I N and Karen Sophie is c A r I N, just like Saren. But to see steven S Yeah, worth, wait what I'm a connection.

It's the name of something, just not a person. So it's worth noting here that she uses the same photo of herself on almost all of her accounts, which is how people have found all of the like like twenty eight or something aliases that she uses on the Internet. It's also it's not a very good picture of her. She actually looks like she's just back from the taxidermist. Yeah, her eyes. There's just something creepy about it, because she really does look like she's been killed and stuffed. Yeah,

she really does. And she's got blonde, like her hair's bleached blonde, but she actually has brown hair. Karen waldegraved is and it's like this very corporate, it's like the nineties like ally McBeal picture, you're that's super weird. And um, you know so Google image search and just like image search in general is a thing, and that's how a lot of people have found a lot of her stuff.

And she even says in one of her posts on Facebook like, hey, I know this is actually a really bad picture of me, but it's one I'm using, which is weird. That's a super weird. On her Genie account, she lists four sons and a daughter all that are just named like n Kell whal Degray Van I can't say that, can't out. She also claims to have three ex husbands, not just two. Oh and also she claims

to be royalty, but more on that later. Back to Facebook, Yeah, yeah, Karen Um also posted photos on Facebook, not just text posts. But they're weird little photos. Most of them are severely or were severely damaged. Well there's well some of them were and some of them weren't. I mean, so that's the kind of interesting thing is some of them were

I think legitimately scanned it. They were on those you guys, I'm sure you both remember the old photo album like Sticky Back with the cellphone cover and I like I have these exact same sheets at my house. That's photo albums my grandmother made me, And they're just literally the sheets taken out and like put on a scanner and scanned fully, and many of those pictures are damaged in there.

But then there's these other pictures that are from there, like of Peter, her ex husband, from the you know, nineties to two thousand's, early two thousand's, and they are quote unquote damaged in exactly the same way, all of them, and pretty much everybody agrees these photos are photoshopped to look damaged. So she had a damaged template and she

would just drop it into the damage. Yeah, Like the squiggles are exactly the same, like the quote unquote damage, the squiggles across and the that were supposed to look like reflections during the scanning process of exactly and in the exact same spots on like at least ten pictures that I saw, except for that one of them is a horizontal picture, not a vertical picture. So it's the template she like rotated ninety degrees and put it on there, and so that is very weird and super creepy. The

only time I've seen people do that. There's there's there's something I'll bring up later on that same thing. But I will say she and it's not like a filter or something, because on all of these photos when she uploaded them, she she claimed they were damaged. In real life, she would refer to the damage on the photos as some thing nefarious or otherwise. So it wasn't as though she was like, look at this cool filter that I put on this thing. It was like, look at these

damaged photos that people were trying to destroy. Right, Yeah, Okay, let's talk about the text. It was mostly text, and it was lots of texts. Most of most of the mystery around her is in the text. Yeah, it started, it started out kind of not so unreasonable, and it got a little weird. Yeah. So most of the actual wall posts were actually like semi coherent, kind of just um seemed a little attention well, no, that like the actual preliminary posts looked I mean there were a little

attention seeking. Like sometimes she would say something like, oh, I'm glad to see that Alistair is back. Like that's not like it's coherent, it's not, you know, but it's

a little attention seeking. But whatever. And then on an example like that, For instance, I think on that particular post, um, there's like two hundred and sixty seven comments from her, many of which are like max out whatever the character limit is on comments, and many of them posted literally simultaneously or if not simultaneously, like within minutes of each other. And she would go on these commenting sprees for like

twelve hours at a time. Go ahead that The thing I was wondering about that is like, I mean, I know, now you can you can cue up posts to be posted later. I don't think you were able to do that. Oh you can't do that, really, do you know? Steve, uh, you are correct Jo that you can queue up post, but actually can you do that on a personal Facebook? I've never seen an option to do that on my personal Facebook, only on the like, you know, I don't

know if you can do that. But even though I mean, but to Joe's question, yeah, I do not think that that at that time or today is a built in functionality. But that does not mean that someone could not write a script to do it for them. That's true, right. It also doesn't mean that somebody couldn't, um just like document and then cut. And I used to do that

on a personal Twitter. Sometimes if I like had a lot of things I wanted to say on Twitter, sometimes I would just like right, I mean, because it's a hundred and forty characters or something like that. So on Twitter, I like felt like if I was responding to someone and I had like a couple of tweets worth of stuff,

I would just write it out and then cut and paste. Um. And so that's not to say that that's not what was happening here, but they're so huge, they're huge, And let's just like, here's an I have an example in here that I know at least one of you has actually reviewed because some one of you made a comment on it. Yeah, I think it was him. It was him,

but I thought the same thing. So in this initial well, and I am sorry I didn't like explain this in my script because I just figured you guys would know that I also knew this information. But you're girl, you actually kind of went into it later on. I do. Yeah, So here's a here's just an example of a post,

and this is kind of how they would go. She the initial post on her wall, like I said, semi coherent, not totally coherent, but semi coherent, where She says, quote looking for Waldo t E, Thomas Edward Lawrence, Peter O'Toole, or Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper. This is a Pengue nineteen sixty two reprint of the original nineteen six text,

first published in nineteen thirty five by Jonathan Cape. And I mean, there's this, there's connections to be made between all of those things we think and mean, certainly Peter O'Toole and Lawrence Edward Lawrence. But yeah, but Waldo, I'm not so sure of. Stephen Harper, I'm not so sure of. Uh yeah, I'm not sure either. But well, we're about to go into this. So so anyways, that would be the post, and then there would be a comment something like this, I'm not going to read the whole thing.

And when you say comment, would you are you talking about one of them or you talking about the thread? Because it's a threat of comments. Well, this is like one of the many one comment in the threat. Yeah, and I'll go ahead and say that, Um, there were two comments that we're going to talk about in a second,

in between that post and this comment. But then she would say, surprisingly, you will not find the recipe in Myra Waldo's Pan American Complete Round the World Cookbook, which was steadily reprinted twice a year between nineteen fifty four and nineteen sixty two. She thanks the following four quote supplying information for this book unquote, as editor in chief

the Voice of America Ready Radio Free Europe. Mr Chai is of the Common Council of the American Unity, with the various foreign constulates and of course most particularly the Pan American World Airways Agent all over the world in eighty one countries, with a very special things due to Harold Laird and Gerald Whittled of Pan American. Man, what

does that mean? I wonder? And then there's like one, two, three, four or five six seven more paragraphs about this and and by the way, just so everybody knows, a lot of these are so big we can't sit here and send no And it's also nonsensical to we want up

boring into tears. But I do, like she says, I guess Harold Laird and Gerald Whittled of Pan American were just too busy with other things between nineteen fifty four and nineteen sixty two to let her know how to mix one cup of dice clery one cup of diced apples, half a cup of finely chopped walnuts, and three quarters of a cup mannaise to help present the United States calm libros. So she's there. I shouldn't be analyzing this already, but that I mean, she's just giving the recipe for

Waldorf salad, right, which is she referred to in a second? Okay, I'm just getting too excited. I'm sorry. Uh So it shows that one in particular because it gives a really interesting idea of what's going on here. These posts appear to be incoherent at first, right, I mean we would say this that that a couple of paragraphs of many

more than eight paragraphs, it's just gibberish. Well, what struck me is it wasn't necessary, didn't It didn't strike me as random gibberish so much as it looked like one half of a conversation. It often seemed like what she would She'd be posting something and it was like she was replying to somebody else in her original posts. It's almost like somebody said something, she's saying something back and got deleted and we didn't see the deleted comment. Or yeah,

that's almost the way it feels never minding the posting timeline. Yeah, so let's and I want to a little bit break these down because you're in the original wall post um. What she was referring to was a book called The Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T. E. Lawrence, which is the autobiographical account of Lawrence of Laurd's of Arabia fame. Which is why Peter A. Tool came in because he played Lawrence of Arabia in the movie adaptation, which started the whole It was a big component in the quicksand

will Always Get You theory. Oh is that where that came from? That's the quicksand actually appeared in the movies before we did. But it's just one more that perpetuated the myth that, yeah, Quicksand so she had that original post, and then she posted these two quick short ones like in rapid succession, and then the eight paragraph long one she and then she said looking for a Waldorf a

good salad, but not a boutique school. And then and you'll Brenner not exactly Anne Jurison, And then she launches into that paragraph rant that I read a little bit of. So there she refers to a wald Worf salad right, and then like four paragraphs later gives the recipe for a wald Worf salad in the context of this larger rand. And so I don't think they're actually gibberish. No, it's not random words. It's not just random words. No, I

mean there there is fought behind it. I will agree, And there is structure and self reference in terms of previous things that are written. So it is not complete and utter gibberish. But exactly I don't know that it is coherent? Did uh? I didn't notice that? He didn't any of her comments get any likes? No? Really, well, they probably all had likes within one second of each other. Could that? Actually looking at the picture of the screen capture, have I don't see the like button? So maybe that

wasn't a thing then. I don't think you could. I think that was like a newer thing it was or something like that. So these these kids today just don't know how good they got it. Now you think I was always possible to just like people on Facebook, always possible to react. You don't even like anymore. You can you have like five options to react to something. It's you can't react to a comment though that you can like a comment though, but you can't react to a comment. Yeah,

that's true. I know you're listening. I know Zack is listening. I want to know many do us a solid advertising on the show. Yeah, but so for reference, the thing is is that there, it's all connected, it's semi coherent. But something a lot of people have talked about is this thing that I know you guys know what this is because we've talked about it on the show before.

If you've listened to past episodes, yeah, if you've listened to my wildly popular Internet mystery episodes, uh, you will know of Markov chain and you may know that, um, you know, Markov chains are really it's relatively easy to write a program to create a Markov chain. And on Reddit, I am just like stealing this from somebody on Reddit because I couldn't find a generator as good as this. So I'm not sure, but tell people, Okay. So Markov

chain is um hm. Basically it takes some concepts, like you just feed it some text to begin with, and it will create these like giant chains of text by association. It's basically AI basically what it is. It is. It is um but it basically just reference. It just finds references for for other stuff and then just plugs words in that it thinks are going to make a coherent something.

But it's a I so it's dumb. I don't think it's Yeah, I don't think it's quite A doesn't look that readable, though it's readable enough you could actually generate like college term papers. I'm sure with no trouble at all. Well, you can generate some some stuff. So what I'm what I'm borrowing here from this Reddit user is um. This user said that they found a generator or maybe they had one of their own, I don't know. Um, they never linked it or anything like that, despite like five

people being like, hey, can you bank me to that generator? Um, they said that they input conspiracy, government, and privacy into a Markov chain generator and came up with this. And it's like three paragraphs long. So I'm not going to read all of it, but I am going to have Joe read the first paragraph. Okay, all right, this is William Shatner reading, not just kidding. Privacy is not and

likely never will be, of streperous human kind. Will always validate government, whether by agronomists or of the account authorities, which intercedes lie in the study of reality as well as a study of philosophy. Hence, authorities might engender mournful adjurations for incarceration, which foretel periodicity. It's by the way, all the mistakes in there were in the original texts

written was written. Sorry, So I mean like that is not honest Lee, not that much less coherent than some of the posts that we've seen from the Karen user on Facebook. So I don't know. And then the other thing I'm gonna bring up, and then we're gonna get into theories because most of this is just like, let's

let's talk about this is um. There was another really interesting analysis done by a on a YouTube video called seriously Strange, and I I believe she took this analysis from someone else that she said she went back to credit and she couldn't find the original source. We know exactly what it's like. It's really hard sometimes and so I don't have the original credit for this. I just have that YouTube video credit for this. But basically, here's

the just of it. Karen's word associations are often based on puns or other strong links. So like there's one post where she's railing against Annalie Peebo, who's an opera singer from her home country maybe of Estonia. Peebo is married to a death core singer named rale Nartists with two as n Artists. Yeah, an artists, Actually not, it's not.

And by the way, for our listeners who don't know what is a death course singer, it's a guy who sounds like this la la actually yes, yeah, is like is like really really heavy battle Okay, he's trying to He's trying to sound kind of like a demon or something like that. From the people that I know who are into death core, it's more about the musicality of

the singer than it is the lyrics. But anyway, so Peebo, who you know Karen's railing against um is married to this death core singer role Nartists two as yea, who she then merges into raul Nartists with one A who's the professor of law at the the University of Taru and Estonia. Um. Though she doesn't know what death core is, she admits outright. Karen humorously puns death Corp off of death Core like Marine Corps, and then translates that to team taught, which is the third Rich too DT. Yeah,

do you say that someplace to some other way. Um, yeah, so it's that's referring to the third Reich and then team taught, like you're teaching something, which she then associates with a peer at the University of Toronto UM in the history department that she apparently had a huge, huge rivalry with, and then she refers to the team teacher. So there's like sophisticated wordplay happening throughout this. Well, there's jumps of logic, but it's more sophisticated than any chain generator.

I think in this world, that's very sophisticated association that as far as I'm concerned, and I see markof later on, so I'm not gonna say anything about it for now. Well, it just takes away from the Markov theory. Yeah, so that's kind of the overview. Brief, like very brief overview. You could spend literal weeks reading these posts. Um. This Facebook profile was deleted in about April of two thousand eleven,

so it doesn't exist anymore. I haven't been successful in getting the way back machine to work, but sometimes other people are successful with getting the way back machine to work on things that I can't because the way back machine is a fickle god. It totally is. But yeah, I would think that did people not discover this until long, long after the fact that she had come and gone? Would think somebody with have archived everything? So did they did?

But they're in a really weird format. I've seen some of those, whether they all the formica has gone and it's nothing but texts. There's a live or an all and a blog spot or something that did this, but they are very hard to navigate, figuring out what is a reply and what's a wall post, and what is referring to a picture and what might be linked to something because there's no category, subcategory, sub subcategor like you know when you know when your Facebook loads and your

internet connection is really slow, and it does. It's not in HTML any It's just like it doesn't have its CSS connected to it, right, it doesn't have its statu It's literally just pure text. That's what these look like. It's hard. It's really hard to navi it. We will post one link to one of these two things, um,

but that does exist. But what happened is people became aware of this user profile in early two thousand eleven, and then people started kind of becoming active with this, and and again we'll kind of talk about this a little bit in the theories, um, but that it was pretty much when people started talking about the profile that it was removed. So I keep seeing I've seen a lot of the writing and you will probably know this better than I. Devon it's referred to as forward slash X.

Is that a subreddit or was that a four chance group? Yeah, there's um which was it? I wasn't sure. It's a chance, it's a chance, it's one of the chance, it's grouping, Okay, because apparently one of the X in the chance went Gaulano crazy over this and started accurate getting giving her a lot of attention accurate which seems to have been

a problem. I mean to the to like a stalking level, like to a really intrusive, very scary level, And I can it doesn't surprise me that just that this profile was deleted, like under any of these theories, right, and any of these theories, if that amount of attention from a chan was being directed at it, you would get rid of it. So all of that hadn't been said We're going to talk about theories in a minute, but

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So go to Bomba's dot com slash sideways to get off your first order. You'll love your Bomba socks or your money's back guaranteed. That's Bombas dot com slash sideways. And remember they come in quite a few colors, and I'd recommend the salmon. We're back. How you guys feeling about those posts? Read them all? Okay? Oh yeah no, that was that was That was great reading. Pulled up my pipe, got in the wingback chair front of the fireplace. It was good. It was good reading. It was a

good cold, windy stormy night. Read so uh. In typical Devon fashion, we have two main theories and solved the theories um circus. So the two top theories, like the two high level theories are either um this is a real person or this is a fake person. So first we're gonna talk about if this is a fake person. I totally can I think it's entirely possible. And this

is a part of where the Markov chain theory comes in. Literally, somebody's just like plugging in some stuff to Markov chain whatever generator generator, Yeah, thank you, and uh, just posting whatever it spits out, or even that they have, you know, built a little put a bit of script that has put a Markov chain generator in charge of a Facebook account.

One of the problems that I would have with that theory would be the number of other social media or otherwise accounts that Karen has, because she has been at some point active in on almost every form of social media as well as most genealogy sites as well as UM the Chance and maybe read it and also um linked in and uh and and and it's posting on this I think currently maybe even posting on this like

subscript thing. I'll see if I can. I don't remember what it's called, but it's something that I ran into in my research, but she actually had a read it log in. I don't know. I can't confirm since read it is such an enigma. There are posts that look a whole lot like Karen style posting. Okay, so so there's yeah, that's that's a dangerous I have no ideas, I mean, because it's totally anonymous. Right. The way that people tracked most of these is because she uses that

same dang picture in everything. So they just did a reverse image search on that picture and suddenly all of these accounts were popping up. And then you would you get in there and you're like, oh, yeah, this is the same person. So for people who don't know reverse image search is I save the photo as Karen headshot wand dot jpeg and uploaded everywhere and then when somebody pulls it from another website. That's one of the main

tools that used to to reverse search it. Well, it doesn't mean things that are involved, but it doesn't have to be the same name, right. But I'm saying, well, so basically I'm giving the simplest version because not everybody

understands how reverse image search works. Right. Basically, what you would do if you if you saw an image and you wanted to reverse image search it, you would go to Google image search and it would say upload picture from U R L and you would say, yep, you would put the U r L that that pictures in and it would search for all images that even like remotely resemble that. Well, today, that is how it works. Back then, it was a lot of file naming because

I used to do a lot of image searching. That way, when I had put up what was I would consider protected content, And that was a way that you could find that people were ripping it because people weren't smart enough to at least change the file name a little bit so you could find it. But the other thing I want to I want to real quick touch on, is the whole Markov thing. Yeah, there's a big problem with this being a Markov changed absolutely. That is that

a Markov chain is not self referential. It doesn't refer to itself in a prior post. Yeah, it also doesn't um for instance, um in that post that we were talking about where she's like talking about people she knows or went to school with. It's not going to be that smart. It's not going to be able to pull and maybe that's something that you fed it, but even then, like it's just too it's too complex and smart for a Markov chain. I believe I think you're right, But

that doesn't mean that Karen is non alias. So it also doesn't mean that she isn't a bot of some kind, right, so um Quickly, one of the things that feeds the theory of like Karen being fake is UM. So I said, I had an expert help us, and she kept getting sidetracked. And her name is Christina, and she's also happens to be one of our Facebook mods and like overall super fans. So thank you for everything, yeah, all the things you do, So thank you for all of all of the things,

literally all of the things. Um. But she as a hobbyist genealogist, and so she has all of the like super pro accounts and all that stuff. So she helped me kind of dig through this and on Karen's accounts, on her ancestry accounts and her genie account. She comes from a long line of Nazis, um, and she claims, I mean like high level Nazis I know, um. But she she does say that these members, these Nazi members

of her family are being unfairly persecuted or otherwise. Um. She does also claim to be related at one point or another to pretty much every royal in Europe that's ever ever existed, and the lineage is just like a mess, but one of the really interesting things admittedly European lineage in generally, but this is like no, no, no, there's no way that you related to all of these people. But I will say that her I think it's her

great grandmother. I think that she claims her great grandmother is a woman by the name of Um Karen Vaughan, counts Conso, who was also known as Karen Um. Can you pronounce these for me, Joe, because Axcellina actually now grewing. Who was who was the wife of herman who you may recognize that name. I don't know how many name you are familiar. He was the leader of the German Nazi Party and the founder of the Gestapoum. And this

is a fact that Karen is proud of. Well, okay, I shouldn't say she's she's not shroud of the but she talks a lot about being related to these people Um. And so that kind of lends itself to a theory of this person being like even a troll or just overall being fake because of like it's it's the same name, like she says, it's the same name that she has, and and she says she's related to a lot of different people and it'd be really easy to just like pull a bunch of names out of a hat. So

there are a couple theories, Um. One is that it would be a troll. One is that maybe this Facebook is actually acting as a number station, and then none. Other is obviously that this is just a very confused reincarnation of Karen. I'm sorry, I'm Karen is like come back to hot Facebook. She's actually dead, Ye, Karen von Counts, the wife of herman. Yeah, I can't say German names. I'm so sorry. That's a joke. I'm sorry, I should clarify that's a joke. Um, but this could be a

troll account. I just I'm going to dismiss out of hand that it's a troll account because it didn't. It didn't. And I don't know why you would have as many counts as this person does, and also why there would be so many like genealogy accounts, and also why you would so many different aliases. And also the story is the same across the board. It's a crazy story that she tells, but her story is the same across the board,

and I just don't know. And I know Steve is about to say to me, well, trolls don't always have a reason, dude, but it wasn't actually going to say that. But I just think I don't think it's a troll. Well, if it's a troll, it's a very disorganized troll, which is why yes, which is that's a better way to say it, thank you, Joe. Because of the fact that

the accounts are under different names. I mean, it's they're very And also, if you are a troll, you don't as soon as you are gaining interest in your troll, you don't delete the troll. But but not every troll is what we think of as a troll who is wanting to flame people in start of war. They just want to They just want to muck with people a

little bit. Somebody wants to. Actually a very successful troll in terms of getting people interested in that even yeah, this may be a super successful Actually you're talking about it like a bunch of bozos. The only thing I will say is, um, if I think if it were a troll account, it would have interacted with other social media accounts, and there's no instance except for Genie on Genie. She posts on Jack the Spineberg's account a lot, who

she says is her father. My my, My difficulty with the troll is if if it's a troll, to me, it's a very low level, poorly organized troll, and yet to be able to do some of the things that happened in the Facebook account takes a level of sophistication that those two don't align to be able to write a script. Okay, I'm gonna say the posts were done by a script. I'm just going to make that presumption

for my example. Okay, it takes a certain level of understanding and sophistication to be able to do that, and yet you can't keep your account straight and you're you're constantly making things and mixing things like there's there. It's it's very I mean, I guess to to elaborate on that, to take it out of the troll theory, it could have been like, hey, here's our really early exploration into AI, right, we created an artificial intelligence that has this Facebook account.

But again, I think somebody would have said, yeah, that was us, like that was our that was our computer robot learning. Yes, maybe, but unless that company tanked I mean even then when when when the Karen's account was in it was just for a year. I think I don't think so anyway, I the next after there's maybe UM. The next theory for fake is that it would be a number station. So can you guys know what a

number station is. It's been a while since we covered number stations, so I'll just reiterate for maybe new listeners. I don't know, are we getting new listeners? Who knows we are? So number stations are basically like UM in its most simple term, it's a station that it's like a radio station that is either constantly broadcasting something or maybe not constantly broadcasting something, but that the pieces of

code would be broadcast over that. So that like if I were a spy for the US for instance, right, radio waves can travel around pretty much around the world depending on time of day alignment blah blah. So I could be in like Russia and I need I need the US needs to get to me to give me instructions. And this is like pre cell phone, pre internet blah blah.

So they have this one radio station that's broadcasting maybe white noise the entire time, and then um they you know, you know, okay, well at six pm every night, I have to tune into this radio station. All we have to do is have your radio and then it broadcasts a coded message and you write down the coded message, and then it's done. It goes back to white noise. And then you decide for the message because you have the key. Because you have the key that's predetermined, and

then you have your message. You have you in the simplest form, that's abroad. That's a number station. So this could be a kind of Internet number station that you know somebody you. Facebook is pretty easy to access. You know, you go to an internet cafe, Facebook is gonna be available. And it also doesn't look suspicious for you to be looking at Facebook. You look up this profile, you say, okay,

here's today's thing. You print out the pages. This is much like what we talked about in cryptos, where you could literally copy and paste the text and format it according to your style when nobody else would get it. Yeah, and then print off your pages for ten cents of pop or whatever, take them with you, burn them when you're done, and you know, nobody's the wiser. It would also explain why it went dark when it started to

gain popularity that does. Yeah, yeah, the only thing about this and I was thinking that too, And there's there's lots of ways to send signals, like for example, there was no code. There might not have been any actual encrypted code in any of it. But and again I'm not so sure about this because it still didn't explain like the one post that had two hundred and sixties seven reply, it wasn't just one post, yeah, but that

was frequent. Yeah, but like that. But but still it could be like a thing where like say, for example, you're a spy and I and I occasionally leave stuff in a dead drop for you information, and you know this. You're the only way you know this to go check the dead drop as you drive past my house and I put my flower pot out of my porch. When you see it out there, you know it's time to

go check the dead drop. That the flowers in that I've been dead for three years, I said, flower pot, it's so flower Yeah, And it could be the same thing. It could It could just be some spy just like you know, checks check your page as well. If I published something really long and tedious and stupid, that's not say three lines, but say you know, two lines. But even check the dead drop. I mean maybe yeah, maybe it's that, or even it's that is the simplest flag

in the world. It is the world. But it could also be even something is like um uh, you know the every fourth post is the coded message, or ever you know, whatever your number is for the day, or just every fourth comment is you know, the next line the first line is part of the code. What I mean, it could could be something super sophisticated like that. It's actually pretty simple or again I mean yeah simple just yeah, yeah,

I know, I get where you're headed with that. Yeah, it's just it just seems like it's still not quite doesn't doesn't quite work because of all the loony behavior. You think you would want to have a sort of normal fake Yeah, you would want to have a normal Facebook page, I think. And you would also I think again the ancestry, the genealogy accounts are what kind of throw this for a loop unless you create the illusion of a of a real person who had some mental

illness going on to explain the crazy posts on Facebook. Maybe, I don't know. I think I think we could speculate about this for a really long time. I think the idea of it being an Internet number station is really interesting, But I don't think it's the right answer. I I have one thing that is not in your stuff. What it could be in the fake heading under the fake

head this is this is a fake section. Yeah, it is entirely possible that somebody else had created a bot that was scraping comments or content from another blog or set of profiles and storing it and then pouring it into a comment thread. So let's just say that it goes to a I'm not gonna say, I'm you know, the crazy website dot com, and there's all these comments, and it goes and it looks for Tom's comment and every because calm, they really like what Tom says. He's

really intriguing and it's fun. So it scrapes every comment that Tom makes and then just starts pouring them into all of let's say the first week of May's comments get poured into one continuous post. Like it could be as simple as that. Now, why you would do that?

I have not the faintest of ideas, but that would that would explain it to me it in terms of the behavior, because it's something that isn't as one of the one of the hard parts about this is that things are done so rapidly in such volume, So this would be a way to actually take something that's overtime and compress it and make it look straight. Well that, um, that timing we'll talk about in the real theories. We can talk a little bit about one of the other

things that people think that this might be. So that's all I have for fake Joe, did you have any additional fake No? I think not. Not now I think not. But so you're ready for the next theory, which is real. Oh yeah, my book is out awesome, I know. So there there's good reason to believe that Karen's a real person. Um, she may think so, well, No, I do. I think Karen's a real person. I think there are more than just that one picture of her, and they're her And

she wears her hair. This is so weird. I'm sorry. She wears her She has like dark brown hair, and she wears it in like two braids with like a hat on, like that's how she wears her hair. Like all of the other pictures of her, she looks like that. But you can tell it's the same person. She's Um, she exists and she's in non photoshop damaged pictures. So if she is real, what's going on? So there are

a couple of things here. One theory is that she's a victim of MK Ultra or the CIA or m I five and in the many, the many things that Karen claims to be connected to the person that she does say is her father was the director of m I five for a while. And I'm not gonna name names. This information on the internet. Um, it's not highly pertinent, it's not. It doesn't change any it doesn't because those

are publicly available names. And I only say that. I only say that because sometimes people bristle at us about that. But I mean, if you really cared, you would go find Yeah, it's easy, it's easy. Yeah, but she does. She does so, and she says that, like that's an alias for like his given name, which is something Waldgrave, which is like anyway, like I said, six degrees of separation of Kevin Bacon is what she's going on. Yeah, but you know, my my thing about that, right I do.

The only thing I like about it is because it involves Bacon. You know, you're making the same leaps of logic as Karen is exactly another thing that I've seen. Uh, sorry, do you guys feel like you need to discuss the mk ultra at my five CIA thing? She refers to it once, But I don't know a lot of accusations

about in my five in the CIA around. Yeah, Karen's not the only person on the internet, I'm going to say, But all you have to do is look at our group to see a lot of people Karen more in my Little Black peopre a little black book that we're going to sell when we're done with it. But as far as the mk Ultra thing, too, doesn't Karen seems to be the Karen's a little young I would agree

to have been involved with M. I would agree with that. However, I would say that I have heard a lot of like my mother was experienced experimented on d you know, from M. Kiltra when she was she didn't know she was pregnant with sort of things. But I don't think that this is one of those things. I think if she is connected to anything, it would be M I five, And I don't think she's connected to him my five. I doubt she's fluky, but I mean back in the old days, I mean she was not flaky enough to

be part of them, my five. But these days I think that, yeah, she's too flaky. Yeah. I think about about the m k ultra thing too, is that if it truly existed, they would have had no trouble at all, if they were doing truly my control, they would have had no trouble at all. Making these people forget everything. Yeah, well, okay, so but remember that the best way to hide yourself

is to to put out disinformation. And what better than to release a bunch of your squirrely rejects who spelled misinformation while you're doing the real Yeah, plant plants, all kinds of false information. Yeah, I don't do that, And yeah, I just shoot everybody's credibility all to hell. And then next time it comes up, everybody rolls their eyes. And the one time is there's a grain of truth, everybody associates it with this bag of garbage. So why would I even read into it the MK Ultra. Have you

guys ever heard of the Indian Lake Project? I have heard of it. But okay, so there's the Indian Lake Project. It's all about MK ultra and mind control and it's put together by this guy. John's the guy that went out in the woods and found that mysterious. His grandpa found a box in the steel box in the woods. I thought it was that gave it to him uncle. Yeah, but yeah, finds all this stuff that's all associated with MK Ultra and all this stuff, and he releases it

over time. But he does something very similar to Karen. If you look at the photos, they have the same age, photoshop treatment to them, the same folds, the same wear marks, Like, yeah, these are old. These are old photos of people that were involved in these experiments long ago, and they're old. They're granny, and they're black and white, damaged, but they've been photoshopped, like you said, to look antiqued. Yes, and then the damage is you see the same vertical from

left to right on a lot of them. So that's why it's weird to me. That's why I sort of want to say that she's fake, because I in a way I kind of feel like John is fake exactly. I supposedly photos of John had been put out there. I saw a photo that I couldn't verify it was real, So I meant to try to bring this up earlier, and then we we blew by it. But it's just this mk Ultra thing is just it's too easy to fabricate. Speaking of John, that guy John in Indian Lake, I

think that's just a creative writing project. Either that or his uncle was the biggest d bag in the road, because his uncle gives him this metal box with all this stuff in it relating and and then later you know, as he finds out his uncle felt like what was in that box had ruined his life. So what's the first thing to do when you ruin your life? You give the box to your nephew to ruin their life. Yeah, of course that makes total sense now, I mean it

totally to me. It was I creative writing project. Well, and and it it I I wouldn't be I wouldn't be opposed to that idea. Because it's funny is that the blog went for about two or three years and then all of a sudden there was the shift of here's my Twitter handle, I will be putting all future updates on Twitter. Well, and and then it's this is my first Twitter post and all future comments are updates

will be here on Twitter, and that's it. Yeah, this is actually an interesting segue to the next theory about Karen is real, um, and that is that her posts are actually excerpts of of her like novel, Like she's writing a book about her life. Don't want to read. Well, it would be I mean, it would explain this like quote unquote genealogy research. I mean, let's just for one second put away are like, let's just suspend our disbelief and say maybe, like maybe it turns out she is

actually related to all of these people. And she actually finds out that she's related to all of She's from these like crazy lineages that have distilled down and she wants to write a book about it, and so she's trying to poorly is writing about her life about things that she thinks are connected overall. I mean, I don't

know that there's a great story there. But many people, even people I know, have said I'm working on my novel and you read a couple of pages of it and you're like, well, this is not a crap, Like this is really bad. And so there's nothing to say that her working on a novel has to mean it's good or even he makes any sense, right, It doesn't have to be She could think it's like this great

work of art. I mean, like Kanye West post. Like we've talked about his book that he came out with where it was like some of the pages were just like one letter, like he got this book published and it's just like the rantings of a lunatic. And obviously Karen read that and thought, hey, if he can do it, I can do it. But I mean, I think there's no there's nothing that says that books have to be intelligible.

So there's that theory that right, So that this would also explain the rapid succession of posts, is that she had written out and then just cut and paste. But it's a strange place to keep your to archive your notes. I agree. I don't know if it's an archive. Sorry, I don't know that it's an archive necessarily as so much as like she thinks she's sharing it with the world,

she's getting publicity. Well, I thought it was more like she makes references to things that on the sheet, and people, as you know, would understand maybe it's kind of code in the sense that makes reference to this and that, and it means nothing that you or me, but to her in her family, it does mean something. It triggers a memory, and so a sentence, a few words, a few yeah, tells this whole reminds them of this whole what happened in the summer of nine that's going to

go to my memoirs. Of course, maybe I don't know, yeah, but I mean, I guess for me, it's kind of like yeah. And then it also explains why the posts are kind of organized the way they are, that like each set of post and comments would be like a chapter. There's sort of self contained. They are in a way that they don't bleed from so there's always these She

very rarely gets stuck on a topic. Well, but what I was getting at is there's there's usually a topic and then or a main statement and then comments, Right, That's what I mean, and like that post, and they don't they don't tend to bleed from one to the other.

So the comment on two the topic of Tuesday and all of Tuesday's comments don't then be uh, feed what happens on Wednesday's comment or topic and all of its comment And the only thing I would say is that, like, I don't necessarily know why one would like be posting these things for like twelve hours, you know, yeah, you know, I mean, it's like listen, we know some good writers

out there. And you know, if our friend Mark Adams was on a bender, and I know you don't do that, but if Mark was on a bender and he just started writing, well, okay, listen, ye, Mark is a much higher caliber than this. But the point is that you know somebody who thinks that I can write and they just they just start spe And I'm just gonna put

a name to this real quick, and that's hypergraphia. And we're going to talk more about that in a minute, but just um, the hypergraphia is basically like a compulsion to write, and that seems to be what's going on here, and it's one of many mental disorders that are attributed to carrot. Yeah, people people do say that she displays hypographia.

And you had a couple of things that you wanted to talk about before we get to my last real theory, Steve, Well, the things you want to talk about, Yeah, I know, there's things that I want to talk about because because I'm just we need to hash this out because I'm a bit stumped on them. So she mentions a couple

of people. She mentions Donald McClean, who was a real person though I should stop to say that, regardless of her allegations that like people are like using these different aliases, almost everybody that she refers to our real people, right, But she she makes these comments about him, said, they're the same people but there, but he's such a weird throwback. He's the one who's a spy. Yeah, he was part of their Yeah, and when he didn't he go he

moved to Russia. He defected and lived there till some point in his old age. She also talks about and I'm going to butcher the last name, it's Arthur alex are sound right, who was an Estonian poet, and like her comment, oh, it's good to see that Alex Sar is back and yeah, yeah, it's like dude, alexr Has been dead for decades. But she, I mean she put quotes around that, right, And I think she was again making one of those like only the way the way

that only Karen does making a pun. She she does this thing, um where she just like refers to someone as someone else or the like the raul raul leap that she was making. I mean, like she just kind of there's a word for what she was doing. I think it's conflicate. Is the word conflicate and conflate me, Yeah, conflint conflate. Yeah, I just add an extra syllable in there. But she, I mean, she conflated often and did that kind of like word play it almost and almost it's

an association, almost like memory mimnemonics. Yeah, it totally. Yeah, that's a good Yeah, it's a great way, so that I mean that. Yeah. So there. There's there's one or two other little things that I've seen, which is I never saw this anywhere, but I always wondered and you hinted at it a little bit earlier, which is get the you were talking about when you have a slow

connection speed and everything loads but it's super slow. So I have had websites that have done this to me, especially when you're in a crappy computer and it's a crappy internet connection. What if she's not making these comments simultaneously, but matter of fact, she's in her cabin in the woods on some terrible dial up at twelve bot and she's making comments, and then five minutes later she's making another comment and then making another comment, and her her

computer is just cashing it all. And then when it gets on it just dumps it all. I mean that that would create a chain, like not a perfect answer, but it suddenly becomes it's a technology problem and not she is a complete you know, she's not not as a chamber. Well, I mean it would accept for that, like the content of those posts is still questionable. You're right, But this to me, so I always break these things apart,

you know. But I guess the thing for me is that like that is not like I don't have a problem with the fact that they're posted simultaneously. I think a lot of people fixate on that issue, like posted. I think there's like twenty different totally logical reasons that they could be posted simultaneous, and still does this Yeah, and it still does not explain the content that's being posted. And for me, it's the content of the posts, not the But I think you got a little thing. Yeah, No,

I I broke it apart. I took content and then the postings and I separated him. That's why I looked at it and said, well, what if this is what's going with this? Because I mean it's just like the same thing as where we talked about before, or the the idea that I proffered, which is somebody was scraping it from somewhere else and then pouring it in. Okay,

there's one. There's somebody else who I found who is a lot like Karen though yeah in terms of the posts, a lot like Karen post well, but I think could be an inspiration for Karen. And that is frances E. Deck. And if you don't know who Francis E. Deck is, google him his there's a great log of his work and it's really the interesting The short version is he was a lawyer, I think it was in the nineteen

forties or fifties. He did some things, he got himself disbarred, and he launched a twenty year letter writing campaign, literally typewriter writing. If you there's actual scans of his his letters, there's some punctuation, there are absolutely no carriage returns. It is just a wall of text with actually he's taken the typewriters, put the page in it sideways and typed

on the edge of the borders of the pages. Like he just makes these crazy screeds where he and I'm not using crazy in the derogatory sense here, but he makes these things where he is making outlandish claims and like he sounds very racist, but really I think he just hated everybody, so he attacks everybody. He attacks everything, like nothing is sacred to this guy. And he did it for twenty years. So there's a hue mongous record

of his work. And to a degree, the style of Karen's writing it seems very familiar after I read some of Deck's work. So that's why I wonder if, yeah, maybe Karen's real, but maybe she studied him, or maybe somebody else use that as their source and it's a person doing this, it's not a bott. Maybe she's maybe she's kind yeah, in the same kind of mental space. And that actually leads into the final theory, which is a big one, and it is that Karen is just um,

severely mentally ill. A lot of people think that she's schizophrenic. There's a video that I well, let's just get through this, right, I know. Um, there's a video I found while researching this, and it's like called what Schizophrenia Really looks Like and it's a man on the street interview with a guy who has schizophrenia. And here's a transcript. I'll read, um the reporter and then Joe, can you be the guy,

don't You don't have to read the whole Thing's okay? Yeah, no, I mean this guy is like he doesn't like devolve into like you know what we would see like a Hollywood portrayal of like this person is going crazy. He's delivered. He delivers these words very coherently. It's just the content again, that's so. So the reporter just says like, um, what's your name? And then this man responds my name. Oh, I'll me tell you my name. Um. I'm confused because

you know, we're supposed to believe in the ministry. Right So is is is the church and state supposed to be separate? I'm confused because I never went to school. Right is a is a confused person get a resolution? I don't understand. You see when you go like that and I'm holding up my hands with my crossed index fingers, right, you have a cross two sticks, right. And that's how I felt when I was in Waterloo, because when I walked in Waterloo and smile to people, they treated me

like a vampire. They used to cross and they went like this by not smiling at me. In Toronto. Oh hi, guys, you know me, Steve spirow is easy going. Those who know me. I'm a nobody, you understand, and you can't kill a person with nobody, So why am I afraid? So it goes on a little bit, but you can see it's not um particularly coherent, not really, not entirely you know, of course, you know, I don't know. I mean schizophrenics, you know, they hear voices and stuff like that.

Maybe it's hard to actually get a coherent thought together when you're being bombarded with voices, um And you just want to go ahead and say, like, I'm just gonna pause right now and say that I do not want to get into the game of trying to diagnose a mental illness based on like a social media profile. Good point.

I think that's super dangerous and also I find it like kind of personally offensive that people have been doing this to the point where like when Karen, when people started becoming aware of Karen's profile in like two thousand, thousand eleven, people were like calling the cops and like reporting her as being like severely mentally ill and trying

to get her institutionalized. And regardless of what you think may have been going on for her, I think I just think that that's stepping in where you are not yeah, well even remotely allowed to go based on a Facebook that's all I think you can go there. I mean, as I think it's very reasonable enough as long as you're not a professional. If you if you're out there as on the internet as a psychiatrist saying my professional

opinion is this person that's crossing a big line. Well, I honestly I just think, like I just think you should like you don't know that person. I think I think it's being a member of a chan and saying this smacks of schizophrenia. So I'm going to author that's absurd, because you know what the problem is, and we've come across this floor. So I I actually stopped and I took the time to look it up to just try and see if I could get a grip on schizophrenia.

And I can't. But you know what made me feel better is that even the governing bodies of the mental health world can't get a grip on it because between the d s M four and the ds M five, things have been excluded in, definitions have changed. Like it is such a it's it's so evolving, and it's so unique to each individual. Yeah, I mean, and I think the thing is is, like, so we talked about hypergraphia a little bit, and people say, like, that's not that's

not schizophrenia. They no, they say that it is an unusual it doesn't usually present with schizophreni yet. But again, like everybody is different, like maybe it does for some people, and you can only have one mental affliction at the same time. And that guy that you were talking about that wrote those yeah, I mean, wasn't he diagnosed schizophrenic? He was. They were pretty sure that he was. So, I mean, like he displayed this same sort of hypographia tendency,

but he also was a schizophrenic. I mean again, it's like we can't there's no way for us to look at these historic posts and say, and nor should we be looking at these historic posts and say, like, this is the mental illness that this person suffered from. But I do think that there's strong evidence to say that this person is mentally ill and that we and we are we're doing a podcast on it, so we are like feeding into this sensationalization of this person's mental illness.

I mean yeah, but it's not it's not outlandish to suppose I mean, because from our point of view, what rational person would do something like this? What a waste? What a waste of time? But if nothing else, what a huge waste of time? Maybe she's been illegal or perhaps you know, this whole thing is like like we were talking about earlier, just a troll or project or a project that that succeeded in creating this big mystery

that people are still talking about. And so you know, we've fallen into the trap and we need to like, you know, hit the e race button, talked about something else. Kevin's got squinty face. I just think I got I'm getting squinty face because I think that like we're doing that thing that I said we didn't want to do, you know where we're just not because it smells bad in here. No, it's fine, Yeah, there's no smelling cat

thing happening here. Okay, but well you're talking about microphone diagnosis. Yeah. I think that we, you know, as armchair investigators, cannot know. I mean the only thing that I'll say is that people say that Karen's UM profile went dark because she was institutionalized or she was you know, was in treatment, and there there are comments on her profile about isn't

it like somebody's coming over. She actually goes on like a tirade because like because again people were like reporting her to the police, and she's just basically is like, you guys, this is none of your business, Like, do not call the cops on me. I'm not crazy. I'm like posting this. It's my own personal thing, like get out, Like you guys are awful, like just ignoring, and the fastest way to get attention is to say, don't look

at me. Absolutely it is. Yeah, So I think I don't I don't give credit to the fact that I mean, her Facebook is the only thing that went dark, like all, she has all these other accounts that we can trace that didn't disappear in two thousand eleven when her Facebook disappeared. So I think I don't really buy into that necessarily,

but I do. I do think that the theory that I am that I land on in this story, which makes me uncomfortable that we've done an entire episode on it, is that it's just a woman who is like mentally ill and this is how it is expressing it, and she does not deserve this level of scrutiny. Yeah, it probably doesn't want it that bad, And it might be that she didn't even delete it, because obviously, if she's mentally ill and getting a ton of attention for her writings,

that's not necessarily a negative thing for her. But her family deleted it. Well, but it might be a negative thing for her if people are like calling hospitals on her. And I remember, have you ever deleted a Facebook account? It's not an easy thing to do. Oh yeah, well, you you go in and you click the button, and then you cannot log into the account. Facebook tells you

for two weeks. In actuality, Facebook does not want to lose so oh, if you hit the log in button with that account name for somewhere between six months to twelve months, I've found that Puppy is back online and it is up and running because I have had family members who have messed up and done the multiple profile thing without realizing it and Okay, we're gonna turn this one off and turn that one off. Just don't log into it. And then I come back and I'm like,

why is what's Oh you logged into it? Why so it's it's not It's not an easy thing. So it yes, it requires a set of circumstances for the normal person or the not completely mentally sound person to be forced into an order for that account to not be accidentally reactivated. I see, I'll remember that if I ever tried to delete Facebook, which I probably will wind up doing one of these days, probably probably probably. So yeah, do you

guys have any more theories? I still I still, while the what we've talked about for probably what's been the last ten minutes seems like the most probable. I also have seen enough art students that I almost wonder if this is a crappy crappy art projects or some sort

of a long con some Reddit types. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, I'll do this, and you do this portion, and the one person who does the beginning get does a ton of stuff and then burns out, and the person who does all the genealogy side, it's like, oh, oh look, I set myself a reminder for every two and a half two months and twelve days, and it's been that time. Let's log in and post some weird stuff. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm much happier having to do it

done an episode. If it's like a coded message number station thing, well that's because you've got a thing for that. But I think they didn't do a very good job of keeping a little profile if that was the purpose. And I think I just think it's somebody that I think is probably sufferings from some wellness something. I like the long con a little bit better, just because I like conspiracies. But there's one person who knows, and that's Karen. So, Karen,

send us an email or friend us on Facebook. There's a problem with that is that you're presuming that she's real and that she exists. Yeah, that's true, that's true, but somebody made her up. Well you can friend us too. That okay, but then we'll never know. Well, let us just that fess up. Keep you, we'll keep it. Send us, send a messenger. We won't tell. We promise that bombshell. Are you if you are Karen Um? Yeah, please contact Please contact us. No. So we'll post some links from

the research on our website. You can also listen and download the episode on the website, as well as find our entire what is it like two hundred and five episode archive or something like that. You can count the short five thousand, four hundred seventy two millions. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how it is. Yeah. So you can find all that stuff on our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. There's also links to our merch sites on the website. If you want to buy a

shirt or a mug up. We got a new shirt up. That's right, new shirt cool. If you want to find us on social media, as previously mentioned, we do have a Facebook. Don't friend us? Actually, um, you can like our page. You can join our group, but if you friend us, we will reject your request. Sorryct, we just reject all the requests exactly. We can still join the group. We don't like you, It's true. We also have a Twitter which is Thinking Sideways um, and we have a

sub credit which is UM thinking site ways. You can also email us, like I said, if you're Karen and you like are scared of social media, now send us an email. Yep. That email address is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And I think all of that having been said, uh, we're just going to get out of here. I think it's time yeah logging off, sweet, I'm craving a Waldorf salad. I am related to everybody, and I will now begin to list off every person

that I am related to in history. Okay, in reverse chronological order. Great Okay, hit hit the record button.